Peter Crouch Opens Up About His Dark Times & Crying Himself To Sleep

Peter Crouch is a legend both on and off the football pitch. Capped 42 times for England, he is one of the few players to have scored 100 or more Premier League goals. Since retirement he has further cemented his role as a cheeky national treasure with his role as a football pundit and host of That Peter Crouch Podcast. But few up to now have seen the man behind the persona. It was childhood bullying and taunts about his height that helped to shape the down to earth man that audiences love today. Using this abuse as his fuel and motivation, he made sure that he let his actions on the pitch do the talking to prove his critics wrong. This conversation explores his path and drive to footballing greatness, as well as his acknowledgement of the characteristics that led a select few of his teammates from great to legendary. He is a walking example of the benefits and rewards of staying true to yourself, keeping self-perspective and self-awareness, and the benefits of trying to be a good role model. Peter: Instagram - http://bit.ly/3g6e78g Twitter - http://bit.ly/3AlKwhK Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've seen things that I'd never seen before. You know, the proudest moment of my life has been taken away because of that.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy. But on the pitch, I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed. The top level players that I've played with, Lampard, John Terry, Steven Gerrard, I think, look like they don't enjoy it. They are constantly battling for the next thing.

• 0:30Steven Bartlett?

  Were they intense?

• 0:31Speaker 00

  So intense, yeah. And, you know, a big reason why I'm the person I am. I played for England in an era where it felt like there was a huge pressure. You know, we had an opportunity to win World Cups and because we didn't, it was heaped on players. I've got my mum, my dad and friends in a crowd. And then you come on and get booed by 70,000. It's hard to come back from that. My mum was crying, my dad had to have a fight. I was thinking about giving up football. I think I wasn't seen as what an England striker should look like. I was so scared. I was just wanting to hide away.

• 1:03Steven Bartlett?

  In that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  That's what I needed to at that time. You're not seen as people. It's like you're well paid, so you have to endure this abuse. You know, you've put yourself in a position to be shot at. But like what I've seen with certainly Harry Maguire, the criticism goes beyond criticism. It's gone too far.

• 1:22Speaker 00

  I'm so proud to represent my country, but...

• 1:36Steven Bartlett?

  Peter,

• 1:40Steven Bartlett?

  where do I need to start in your story to really understand you? What's the most pertinent, relevant things that someone listening to this needs to know about you to understand you?

• 1:52Speaker 00

  Um, well, right at the start, I suppose, I think it's, everything comes from your childhood, right? Um, I am who I am and shaped by my, by my parents and my friends. And I suppose people see me now, obviously, like I had a determination to be a footballer, a huge determination to be a footballer. And then people see me now as a footballer who has a laugh, I suppose, and that is my persona. And, but that stems from, from my childhood, really, and being a little bit different, looking a little bit different and having a, maybe a defence mechanism. And that humour or probably that you see,

• 2:36Speaker 00

  which is me now, yeah, was a little bit of a defence mechanism. When someone came at me, I'd always be funnier than they would be. And then that stops whoever's saying it in their tracks, you know? And then that being so tall at such a young age was, was difficult at times, but that kind of defence mechanism was, I'll laugh at myself before you can laugh at me. And that, that stood me in good stead. And, and even now, that's, you know, that's the way I get through things.

• 3:04Steven Bartlett?

  When was the, when was the first time that you, that you realised that you were different? Cause like, I, I remember coming to the UK from Botswana in Africa, and I was the only black kid in a non-white school. And there's like, there's some day, I think I remember specifically a comment that a kid made to me on the playground, which really put into like perspective that I was actually different to them. It was something about my hair. I had like a little, little like kind of Jackson 5 Afro going on that I'd combed out. And from that day onwards, that was, I kind of noticed that I was different. Can you recall a time where you, you realised that you being taller was, made you different?

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think it's only, it's only people with, with experience, like older people that, that notice anything like that, isn't it really? I think like as kids, we just grow up, everyone's the same, aren't they? And then it's older kids. So like when I was, you know, I was always the tallest in my class, but my mum and dad never made a big deal of it to me. I was always taller than everyone else. And then when we started to play football and then when I Started to be good at football. You would hear things on the sideline, yeah, but he's a couple of years older or yeah, he's good, but he's he's too old. And because you're only judged by your height at that at that age. So I would hear things from the parents and then, you know, I'd hear like little remarks, like people laughing, little japes and jibing.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  And yeah, because like people saying, oh, you're skinny or you're lanky is is seen as. It's sort of like you're allowed to say it in some ways. Do you know what I mean? Like it's a it's a describing word, but like that's how it was for me. But I I love it. It's it feels to me like it's part of me. It's me now. I've always been taller than everyone else. It wasn't as if I just shot up and was different. I was just always ahead above everyone else. And that is a part of me now, which I love.

• 4:53Steven Bartlett?

  Richard Richard Osman, who came on the podcast, was the first person who kind of stunned me into silence. Because I have to be completely honest, I didn't realise that.

• 5:05Steven Bartlett?

  Heightism, abusing people for being tall was such a sort of consequential.

• 5:13Steven Bartlett?

  Thing for those people. I was one of the people who who didn't didn't realise that someone who's lived their height, being very, very tall. Will be told about it everywhere they go every second and how that can impact someone and how they feel. Honestly, when I remember doing that podcast, I remember sitting here and go, fucking hell, of course, of course. It'd be like anything else with me. If I had the third arm and everyone said it everywhere I go, it would make me subconscious about it.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Exactly right. Yeah. And, you know, it's because there's bigger problems everywhere, you know, there's bigger problems. But my problem, my problem, or, you know, it was my thing that was different was my height, you know, like I I recently, you know, added. Did a joke of like all the questions that I was permanently asked. I had a a series of cards in my inside pocket. To answer every single question that everyone, the people I knew were going to ask me. So it was, what's the weather like up there? Do you play basketball? How tall are you? Do you sleep in a grow bag? Is the weather different up there? Right, five questions, but I had all the answers in my inside pocket. So before they even opened their mouth, I could give them a card.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  And it was just something funny, you know, that that that changed the subject. But it's amazing how many times, I think it's less so now because people know who I am and know what I'm about. But before. Um, people, I became well known. Um, those questions were just constant.

• 6:35Steven Bartlett?

  What impact does that, we joke about it as, you know, now, but what impact does that have on a young man?

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Well, on an impressionable young teenager, it had a, it had a big impact. Um, me now, you know, it's water for duck's back, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't matter to me. But yeah, as a young lad, it was, it was a little bit different. I remember my dad getting, you know, really angry about it.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Because as a teenager, you're going through things that are a little bit, um, you know, you're always, you're not comfortable within your own skin, are you as a young, as a young lad?

• 7:09Speaker 00

  So I was the same as everyone else, but I found it difficult at times, really difficult. And especially football terraces, like as I got older, um, and I was playing professionally. And then I started playing in the first team and all of a sudden it was like, you know, dealing with, it was one thing dealing with the odd person in the, in the streets saying, oh, aren't you tall? And another thing dealing with sort of thirty, thirty thousand people screaming like obscenities at you. You know, taking the piss out of the way you look, laughing at you. That, that was difficult.

• 7:43Steven Bartlett?

  When you say difficult, what do you mean?

• 7:46Steven Bartlett?

  In a practical, because I read that like fourteen and fifteen years old, you're crying yourself to sleep sometimes because of this and having conversations with your dad about it.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I think there was times where I thought to myself, is it, is it worth it? Is it worth going through this? Um, why am I putting myself through this? It's all I've ever loved. It's all I've ever wanted to do. But if people are gonna laugh at me and take the piss out of me, um, what is the point, you know? Do I want it that much? I was lucky, I had a good support network around me, you know, I had good people around me. My dad was, was great with me. He'd always, and he was harsh with me at times as well, but. He was also really, really good at pulling me back up and sort of giving myself more confidence. And listen, I don't look like your average footballer and I've known that since I was 10, 11 years old.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  You know, when I watch football on the TV, I don't see anyone that represented me really. Like Tor Andre Flo was potentially one, had good technique. There was a couple of players, but not many. So I thought to myself, maybe I'm just not, I'm not right. Maybe I don't look right. I don't, I shouldn't be a player, you know. I had all these things going on in your mind, but ultimately if, you know, I had the determination and I had the ability to, and I suppose the thick skin, which you have to have to, to go past it.

• 9:10Steven Bartlett?

  You said that there was thoughts in your head of maybe I should, maybe I should quit. Maybe I should go do something else. Were those like real considerations you had at some point?

• 9:19Speaker 00

  Oh, without doubt. They were, that was, I'm just, I just think to myself, is it worth it? Like why, I always remember the game, it was West Brom away, I came on and I missed the chance. And nobody knew who I was. I was just a kid, you know, I was probably the same height as I am now and probably about, I was probably about nine stone, nine and a half stone. I was just, you know, much skinnier than I am now, believe it or not. And I'm trying to be a Premier League player, you know, it's just, people just thought it was absolutely ridiculous. And at times I thought it myself. I thought, well, I know I've got ability, but I'm looking at these big, strong, you know, developed men. Like I can't compete with this. And I always remember coming on, people actually laughing at me.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  And then there was another game away at Gillingham where I just got absolutely abused to the point where, you know, people were shouting freak and does the circus know you're here? Like this, these were the, these were the things that were people saying. And my dad was in the crowd. I always remember it. I was walking, I was walking out at half time of the game. And my dad was rolling down the aisle in the, in the Gillingham end, having a fight with someone. I thought, oh my God, this is not, this is my first season in professional football. I feel my dad's having a fight. I'm getting absolutely abused. My mum's crying. You know, what am I doing? Why, why am I putting myself through this? Of course I love football and that's, you know, what I want to be, but is it worth all this?

• 10:45Steven Bartlett?

  How do you feel about those people that are shouting like freak at you when you come on the pitch and upsetting your family? How do you like think about them and that kind of culture now?

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Do you know what? Like it'd be easy for me to say here, sit here and go, oh, you know, the brain dead, this, that, but growing up in a football culture, it's like, I've been there myself on a football terrace where you, you know, and you hear things. My dad used to cover my ears and stuff. I used to go to Chelsea as a kid and I don't know, it's like, it's like almost normal. And I know it's wrong. And obviously there's a line, you know what I mean? Obviously, we've seen it recently, you know, with racism and, you know, there's certain things that go well over the line. But, you know, being tall wasn't considered, you know, over the line. So it was something that I just, I just decided was that was the way football is, you know? Can we change that? Can I change that? I don't

• 11:38Speaker 00

  think so. So I just got on with it. And how do I think about them now? I think, yeah, it was reckless. I think, I think I sat down with a Gillingham fan that was abusing me that day. And I said to you, do you know what? You're really like, my mum was crying, my dad had to have a fight. I was thinking about giving up football. I think you'd, I think he'd say, oh, God, I'm sorry. I think he would. But I don't think in that moment, he saw us as people. It's like you're a footballer on the pitch and you're not seen as, it's like such tribalism that you're just gonna endure, you have to endure it for, you know, you're well paid. So you have to endure this kind of level of abuse. And I think things are changing. You know, I'd like to think they are. We're trying to help

• 12:23Speaker 00

  that. But certainly in those days, it was a case of get on with it.

• 12:29Steven Bartlett?

  Did that put a chip on your shoulder? You know, when you hear those things and you're running onto the pitch and you hear people abusing you or whatever else, or you're aware of that? That narrative in your head, when you come on, do you think to yourself, I'm gonna fucking show these people? I'm gonna, does it give you, did it give you doubt or did it give you an extra bit of confidence?

• 12:49Speaker 00

  It's a little bit of both. I think like when I was like, I, I didn't know whether I was gonna play for England or I was gonna be a non-league player and either of them would have been fine. Like I, I wasn't on the map to go and play for England, you know, I wasn't Steven Gerrard, I wasn't Michael Owen, I wasn't Wayne Rooney. You know, I had a different path. I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 22, 23 probably, you know. So I didn't know where my career was gonna go. So yeah, there were times where I doubted myself. But then I think, you know, I think I scored my first goal and, and things just changed and I just, it was one of, it was the most important moment of my life. And it was against Gillingham again, believe it or not. Funny how it comes around, but I, yeah, I chested the ball down and I volleyed this ball into the, I was at QPR.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  And I knew then that I'd have a career in football. Like, I, I didn't know I'd play for Liverpool, I didn't know I'd play for England, but I didn't know what I'd go on to achieve, but I knew then I'd have a career in football. And that was where my confidence grew and, and then I thought, no, no, no, I can do this.

• 13:49Steven Bartlett?

  Your dad, I heard he was quite tough at times from what I read.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, like really tough, yeah.

• 13:58Steven Bartlett?

  What does that mean in real terms?

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think at times he probably went a little bit too, too far, but that time, like I wouldn't, I wouldn't be sat here having played for England or having played, achieving the things that I've done, achieving my dreams without him being hard on me. Like I, I wouldn't, would I go maybe to the, to the lengths at times that he, he did? Maybe not, but.

• 14:25Steven Bartlett?

  What lengths?

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Well, he, just certain things, like I think the, the harshest one was when he, he obviously left me at.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  I was at the ball court in Tottenham and I jumped out of a tackle and his thing was, look, I came from a nice background and a lot of the kids were playing football to survive. You know, so I had to toughen up and that's the truth. Like, was I going to go into a tackle like my life depended on it, like the kids from the estate round Edmonton or East London? And probably not at that time. So, you know, when I got up to, after the, after training, you're like, my dad, he'd gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he left me and I had to get home.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  And bearing in mind, I grew up in Ealing, getting home from White Hart Lane with an overground, seven sisters to Oxford Circus, Oxford Circus to Ealing Broadway and then walk home from there. I was probably about, I was probably 13 or 14, but I hadn't been on a tube before. I had, but not on my own. So it was a tough lesson. Did he tell you he was going? No, I went up there and he was gone. And did you not think, I'll give him a call to where he's? Well, I didn't have a mobile. Yeah, yeah, it was different. And when did you find out it was because you weren't tackling people? Well, I thought, I thought it might be.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Well, it wasn't that I didn't tackle. I think, I remember jumping out of one particular tackle. I thought my dad's going to kill me for that. Do you know what though? I never jumped out of a tackle again. And, you know, like I say, it is a harsh lesson, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to sit here and say it wasn't the right lesson. I think it might have been a tad harsh. Would I do, would I do that to my son? I'm not sure. I don't, probably not. But I think potentially I'm too, I'm too easy on my kids a bit.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  It's a tough lesson to learn, but I think if you want to be a top elite footballer, you need to want it as much as the next person. And I did want it, but I hadn't had to fight as much as these kids, you know. And don't get me wrong, these kids, they're my friends now, you know, like I have some good, some good lads that came from tough upbringings that went on to be really good players. You know, Ledley King, I remember Ledley King, Stephen Mills, James Carter, these boys that I met in the ball court, you know, Nicky Hunt, they were tough lads, you know, from, you know, Bow in East London, you know, in a state where Ashley Cole grew up, Ledley King grew up. And I ended up playing in the ball court where they grew up,

• 17:23Speaker 00

  you know. And that's a different kind of environment to where I was playing, you know, but I think when you can hold your own in there and, you know, you can go, you can rough it up, you can fly into tackles. I basically changed my whole personality when I played football, you know, like I can sit here now and I'd like to say that I'm, I'd like to think that I'm a nice guy. I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy. But on the pitch, I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed. And that was just one lesson.

• 17:52Steven Bartlett?

  When you got home from that little football game where you didn't put the tackle in or jumped out of the tackle, did your dad have a conversation with you about it, about why he left?

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:01Steven Bartlett?

  So he told you why at the end? He said?

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:04Steven Bartlett?

  Why he smashed?

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, listen, there's a few things that like should remain private between me and my dad, but let's just say I was, I was told in no uncertain terms to not jump out of the tackle again.

• 18:17Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, good. And your mum? What was your, her broader influence on you?

• 18:22Speaker 00

  My mum.

• 18:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, your mum?

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Um.

• 18:25Steven Bartlett?

  What's she like?

• 18:26Speaker 00

  She was very much like me. Yeah, I think most of my, my traits probably come from my mum. You know, obviously the love of football came from my dad and stuff. And, you know, he's very good with me, but my mum was.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Was very good with me and you know, she was, I thank her every day about, you know, she'd taken me to some matches. I remember seeing her, you know, she was the only mum on the side with the brolly when it was lashing down and she was incredible, taking me to places. She was like my shoulder to cry on. She was the person that I would confide in. They're both, both very, very good and you know, a big reason why I'm the person I am.

• 19:08Steven Bartlett?

  Those players from the estate that you, you played amongst, one of the things I read about in your book was how you could see how attitude played such an important role and who would make it. Cause getting from like the estate to, you know, sort of semi-pro level and then getting to the Premier League is a long fucking journey. And there's only a few seats at that top table. So when you think about like why, including yourself, why in terms of mindset and attitude, some of, of your colleagues and some of your peers made it and didn't make it. What's your answer to that?

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's funny, like everyone, every footballer that's played for England or played, I've played with in the Premier League, they've all got a story, all of them. I've got, every single one will tell you a story about the player that was better than them, that no one knows. There's so many of them out there and it's sad. But for whatever reason, injury, you know, there's lots of temptation as a young footballer, especially when you're that good. You know, if you're earning money, you don't know how to handle that money, friends, parties, you know, distractions of, of all different kinds. You know, attitude, will, you know, determination, dedication. There's, there's so many factors alongside ability,

• 20:25Speaker 00

  luck. There's, there's, there's so many factors. But I, I sometimes think we don't, you know, a lot of the time we look at the negative side of football. But I think sometimes when you see the kids that have come from absolute, and I'm talking absolutely nothing, some of these kids, who are now playing for England or, you know, and they make mistakes. They make mistakes in the public eye. They make mistakes, high profile mistakes. And everyone goes, ah, it's footballers, you know, that's what, that, you know, that's what they're like. But like, if you'd have seen what they've come from.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  To playing in a Champions League final. I think that's a success story, you know, I think sometimes we should celebrate that fact, not not can for making those mistakes that they've made. And yeah, of course, depends what kind of if it's, you know, too, too big a mistake. Obviously you can't condone some things, but some of these players who have come basically with no mum and dad, you know, they're someone's picked them up with one particular player, you know, not had any boots, been thrown on a football pitch and has ended up playing in a Champions League final. But yeah, he's made the mistakes along the way, but I think sometimes we should, we should consider that a success.

• 21:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, we don't really have a lot of empathy, do we, when it comes to?

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Because it's, because it's, because it's a highly paid profession, you know, and sometimes, you know, there's a stigma on, you know, why are these, why are these players getting paid so well? And I get, I get that, you know, there's a, there's a lot of money in football and, you know, could it be spent elsewhere on people in the NHS or, you know, people who are doing probably much more harder jobs than a footballer, but it is what it is. You can't change it, but I do think, yeah, there is, there is that stigma associated to footballers.

• 22:15Steven Bartlett?

  I sat with Tim Grover, who was the guy that trained Michael Jordan and Kobe. And he also trains some Premier League football players now, gives them like coaching advice. And one of the things he told me was how he's seen the pressure of being a high level Premier League football player completely destroys some players. And it's something that it was the first time I'd kind of heard that because as a fan, as I've always been, you know, we're all tweeting, we're all having our say, all commenting, we're all at the games shouting in our little mob mentality, whatever. But then we don't really think that the, all of that pressure, especially on like, as you say, a kid that's come from the estate who's 18 and isn't like, doesn't have the tools to deal with that pressure, how they can be going home, how it can severely impact their performance and how it can kind of like just cause them to collapse a little bit.

• 23:00Steven Bartlett?

  I've got to be honest, I've seen a similar thing in my view with like the, the mob attacking like someone like Harry Maguire. Rashford had it a lot last year as well, but what's your take on all of that? And have you seen that yourself in the dressing room?

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've seen it. I played, I played in. I played for England in an era where it was, it felt like there was a huge pressure. There was, it was the golden generation, you know, players were the best we've ever had since 66. You know, we had an opportunity to win World Cups and, you know, because we didn't, it was, you know, it felt like it was heaped on certain players. And that kind of pressure, but when you're talking about Rashford and Maguire, like, I think we were all entitled to criticize players. Like, we put ourselves in that, in that position, but like, what I've seen with certainly Harry Maguire, I feel like it goes, it's gone really too far.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  I think, you know, it's, it's harsh, it's, you know, I'm just thinking of his family, you know, because I've been in that position. I've been booed for England. I've, I've, I remember playing at Old Trafford in a game and coming on and it's the proudest moment you'll ever have in your life. And your home fans are booing you, you know, I've been in that situation and it feels like Harry Maguire is going through, you know, what seems to be a prolonged period of this. And yeah, regardless of form, I think some of, you know, the social media stuff I see, you know, ridiculing.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  I think he's having a difficult time to, as a player, but I think some of the criticism goes beyond criticism. It becomes too harsh, in my opinion.

• 24:40Steven Bartlett?

  Having been in a situation where you've been booed by the fans of the club you're playing for, what does that do to you? What did it do to you when you came, was it for England you came?

• 24:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's devastating. Yeah, I'm, I'm playing for England. Listen, you know, there might be an element of the fact, I was my Liverpool player, I'm at Old Trafford.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  You know, obviously a lot of my United fans.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  But it was during the course of when I, I wasn't scoring for Liverpool and I was having a real tough time anyway. I had 18 games where I, or I didn't score for Liverpool. And then the fact that it goes back to, I, I felt like with England, I had to be superhuman. But it goes back to the thing where, because I looked different a bit, I, I wasn't seen as what an England striker should look like. And I, I think that was genuinely a thing. But I then, you know, I'm so proud to represent my country, but I've got my sister, my mum, you know, my dad, all friends in the crowd. And everyone's excited, you know, they're all talking to me before the game about, you know, me potentially coming on and making an appearance, get the cap.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  And then you come on and get booed by 70,000.

• 25:47Steven Bartlett?

  Of your own fans.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  Of your, yeah. So, so what I'm saying is, don't ever feel sorry for footballers, don't, but you know, don't have to, we expect that. But my family, like my mum was in bits. You know, the proudest moment of my life has sort of been taken away a bit because of that. But, you know, we put ourselves in the position, there's no, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna sit here and, and cry about it, just, it's just disappointing for my family more than anything.

• 26:19Steven Bartlett?

  What happens when the whistle blows, the game ends on days like that? You go back and see your family. Is there a bit of an awkwardness to it?

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Bit of embarrassment, you know, because you want to be the one who comes down with a, with a champagne in your hand, you know, and everyone claps you in and your family give you a big hug, you know, and most of the lads did that, you know, they've got a shirt, they've got a cap. Like I'm, I come down to the players lounge after and I'm a bit sheepish and I'm like, sorry about that mum. You know, it's like you're apologising for doing the thing that you've worked so hard to do your whole life. So that is, that's difficult, dealing with the, the family side of it, because I, I know what I've done. I've put myself in a position to be shot at. I'm sure you feel the same, you know, doing this podcast, whatever you do, that's, you

• 27:10Speaker 00

  know, you've put yourself in a position to be shot at, but your mum hasn't, you know? She doesn't, she doesn't need to hear that and it killed, it killed her a bit.

• 27:18Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny, isn't it, when you're, when you put yourself in a position to be shot at, I really like that phrase, and then, you know, you get shot at. Your family try and stand in the way of the bullets to some degree. And it's like, no, no, no, please don't send me the articles. Please don't tell me your thoughts on it and WhatsApp. I don't need to persuade you out of this situation and like sort of counsel you on why these people are saying this about me.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  But how do you deal with that? How do you deal with like, you know, do you just put up the guard and pretend it's not happening?

• 27:48Steven Bartlett?

  It depends on the issue, but I mean, I'll probably get cancelled once every quarter for something I've said on this podcast or whatever. Dragon standard sometimes because of the way it's edited, it can make it seem like I said something I didn't say or whatever. But so my friends know not to send me articles. Just assume I've seen it. I don't need my best mate going, have you seen this?

• 28:07Speaker 00

  This is something that happened like early on in my career and I was like, no, don't stop all that. Like I'm not, I'm not reading you. I don't watch match of the day if I haven't scored.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  That's the way I deal with it. It's like, you know, that doesn't exist.

• 28:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  When I do something good, I might, I might listen to the player. Be very selective in what you watch or listen to.

• 28:29Steven Bartlett?

  But was there a moment in your career where you said, I'm not going to read the newspapers anymore. I'm not going to watch the telly. I'm just going to.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:35Steven Bartlett?

  Was that that Liverpool phase?

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Oh God, yeah, that Liverpool phase was like radio silent. I was gone, I was realised the thing like everyone's, the problem with now, I could stop buying a newspaper. I can stop watching telly. I can do other things, you know, I can do, but nobody can live without their phone now. And this is the problem like for young footballers that are worried about, I do like, you've got to worry about it because no one can put their phone down. No one can. So any footballer is the same, especially a young player. You know, you pick up your phone for it. Right, I've got what's on the diary. I've got a text message. Then you, did you find yourself on Instagram, on Twitter or on whatever you're on? And you can't get away from it. And no matter what the players tell you, whether they, oh, I don't listen to it. They, they do, they do.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  You can't get away from what, what it is now with the phones. You can't, everyone's got one and everyone's looking. With me to get through that, yeah, I didn't, I didn't watch. I was getting ridiculed. That time where I didn't score for Liverpool was.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  Such a hard time like for me, I was just want to hide away in a, in a, in a dark room until I scored basically. So I don't know what I would do if I was hiding away in a dark room with a mobile phone. You might as well just not, you might as well go out and face it all because it's a lot harsher on the, on the phone than it is when you see people in person.

• 30:01Steven Bartlett?

  If I was in your, so you signed for Liverpool and then you go 18 games without scoring, 18 appearances, right, without scoring?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:07Steven Bartlett?

  Um, if I was in your household at that time, if I was behind the scenes in your camp, what would I have actually, what would, what would I have seen?

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Um, someone who's depressed, I suppose. I mean outwardly, outwardly not. I've never been that person to sort of, to wallow in it, you know, I'm always been the sort of, I suppose, a bubbly character, always see the positive in everything. Um, but that, at that time, like, it felt like I was getting ridiculed and it was really tough. I had to sort of fight my way through it. But what was so amazing was the Liverpool fans stuck with me and that's something that I'll never forget because I, I swear to you, any club in the world, having just won the Champions League in one of the best finals we've ever seen in Istanbul in 2005, they signed me, right? I turn up and I don't score for 18

• 31:01Speaker 00

  games, right? I don't think there's a club, a top club in the world that tolerates that as a fanbase, apart from Liverpool fans. And they stuck by me and it was like a siege mentality. It was like everyone else is attacking him, but he's one of ours and we're with him. And it felt like every time I played, it felt like they were willing me to score. And when I eventually did, um, you can see the, the footage of it, the camera's shaking and like the, it's like we've won a European Cup final, like people wanted me to score that much. And I, you know, I'm thankful to this day that they, they did stick with me and, because I managed to turn it around after that. And, um, it was a special moment,

• 31:46Speaker 00

  uh, at a special club.

• 31:49Steven Bartlett?

  I was reading in that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been a little bit after games and stuff.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, because my dad, you know, to be fair to him, would say to me, and I'd be like, no, I'm not going out. And he'd be like, you're going out. Like, he'd make me go out after games. And I'd be like, I don't want to do that. People are laughing at me. But he'd drag me out, and we'd have a few beers. Like, it wasn't as if I was drinking at home on my own. It wasn't like a dart kind of thing. It was, he was making, he was dragging me out and he was making me have a few drinks. And then I realised, actually, no one, because it's, I've built it up, it's, everyone's laughing at me. It's my, it's my world that's, you know, no, actually, no one really cares. You know, they might have a laugh at you on a Saturday, but they're going back to their own lives. You know, I've, I feel like it's, everyone's laughing at me all times. You know, you build these things up in your

• 32:39Speaker 00

  head and they're never as bad as you think they are. So, his way of dealing with it, you know, with me was to take me out for a beer. And yeah, I probably did drink a little bit more than I should do as a, as a Premier League player, but I needed to at that time.

• 32:54Steven Bartlett?

  And you, you bounced between, what, six clubs before the age of 25?

• 32:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:59Steven Bartlett?

  Six?

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:00Steven Bartlett?

  That's a lot of moving.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  It's a lot of moving around, yeah. But I, I classed that as, like, if I'm, if I'm at Liverpool, or, you know, you're at, start at Manchester United, or Chelsea, you know, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, you don't have to move anywhere if you're playing, do you? You don't have to. The course of my career was very different to anyone else's course of my career. And those moves that I had were QPR was, I had a chance to showcase my talent. You know, I did very well. The club went into administration, I went to Portsmouth. And they bought me for like a record fee. I then did really, really well in the Championship and got a move to Aston Villa in the Premier League. You know, I felt like my dream had arrived. And then it didn't quite work out. I wasn't ready for the Premier League. I always remember my debut was against Newcastle and Alan Shearer was up the other end of

• 33:44Speaker 00

  the pitch and I was at this end of the pitch, and obviously the opposite striker. And I thought, if that's what I need to be a Premier League player, I'm not one. I'm not one. Because he was so good. And I, and I just thought, maybe, maybe I'm a Championship player. So, I ended up having to move again to Southampton to get games. And then things took off. So, like, all my moves were like, For a reason, from a club point of view, or for a financial thing for the club, or for me having to go out and get football, or for me to progress as a player. So I would have loved nothing more than to stay at one club for my whole life.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  But that wasn't, that wasn't my journey.

• 34:31Steven Bartlett?

  You moved from Liverpool to Spurs.

• 34:35Steven Bartlett?

  How would you sort of summarise your time at Spurs?

• 34:39Speaker 00

  I absolutely loved it because I started at Spurs as a youngster and I played in that ball court at White Hart Lane and I tried to play in a youth team and I was in the reserves and me and Ledley King came through together. Ledley went, obviously was there and I went throughout all this whole journey of Liverpool, England, QPR, Portsmouth, Southampton, Norwich on loan, Dalot Hamlet on loan. And I came back to Tottenham and Ledley was in the same place I left him.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Which was amazing, you know, it's like we, I never got to play in the first team for Tottenham. I'd come through there in the youth team, I had so many players ahead of me, I wasn't ready. So when I come back for £10 million and I'd already played in the Champions League final, I'd played in the World Cup. I'd achieved things that nobody in that Tottenham sort of dressing room at the time would say I would achieve. I wasn't even good enough for, you know, to play in their first team, which is correct at the time. So to come back, it felt like I'd finished business, if you like. So then when I scored some important goals for Spurs and we got into the Champions League for the first time and we had good success.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  That felt like it was almost like a coming home, if you like.

• 35:56Steven Bartlett?

  And that ended a little bit too abruptly, if you like.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  A bit, yeah, yeah, it did.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  I liked it at Spurs, it was funny because I, it was deadline day and they, Harry Redknapp was talking about bringing Emmanuel Albiyor in and it's funny how it works for a footballer, but I went to work, call it work for now. I left Abby and the kids and I said, I'll see, I'll see you this afternoon. And then this afternoon never came, I never came home and I just give her a call and said, we live in Stoke now.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  It's the life of a footballer. I was happy he had a two year contract left at Tottenham.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  But I was just, you know, a bid came in of £10 million for a 30 year old. And I could understand from a club's perspective that they wanted to accept the offer. They wanted to bring Adebayor in and I spoke to Harry and he said, obviously, yeah, we do want to bring Adebayor in. But Daniel Levy wants to accept this bid. Obviously, I wasn't happy about it, you know, I was happy where I was. I was at a great club and I wanted to stay. But certain bits and pieces happened and I said to Ab, we're on the move.

• 37:14Steven Bartlett?

  How does Daniel, he's a figure that's talked about a lot as being quite a tough, tough guy. Does very, what's the word, tough business. That's what I hear a lot.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Well, listen, this is, you know, it's Diary of a CEO, right? If I was running a football club, I'd probably have him in charge.

• 37:32Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 37:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. He's a harsh businessman, right? But he's looking after, you know, a billion pound asset, you know, he's, he's not necessarily the owner, but he's running it like it's his own.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  And I think I understand that, like the bid of £10 million came in for me. I'm a, I'm an asset to the business and I know I'm a person. But if you look at it purely from, from a business perspective, I'm a depreciating asset at 30 years old, potentially. I went on to 38 to be fair, but in his eyes maybe. Wilson Palacios was, was another, six million to go, so 16 million they're getting for, it's good money, it's good business, potentially. But you know, I'm not, I'm not stupid either. So I had two years left on my deal and.

• 38:26Steven Bartlett?

  He must have had his, been bent over.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Well, if you think about it, he's getting 16 million, right?

• 38:32Steven Bartlett?

  You sound like the man with your arms crossed.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not like, I know what he's getting.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  I'm entitled to see someone out if you want me to leave. And listen, I didn't get that much, obviously, but I did okay and it worked out for both of us. But I don't think there's many people that come out of maybe an incident like that with Daniel leaving and come out smiling. Because he is harsh, but like I say, you know, I had my run in with him. And there were times where I said, no, it's okay. I'm happy. I'll see you in the morning. I'm happy at Tottenham. I was comfortable there. And I just said, I'll see you in the morning. And, you know, I suppose you've got to be prepared to hang up the phone and say that. And then he kept coming back and telling me that I wouldn't get a squad number or I wouldn't, I'd be training with the kids.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Trying to make my life difficult. And I was like, no problem.

• 39:30Steven Bartlett?

  What was that initial conversation? He calls you in and says you're off. Do they not say, I'm interested in the world of football, like, because in the world I'm from, in business, there's a high degree of empathy. It's a very, you know, conversation, it's performance reviews, it's very, but we don't have an impending deadline day either. So I'm just trying to figure out if it's like a go get your stuff, you're off, or if it's a...

• 39:51Speaker 00

  But I think it would be different if you did have a deadline day, you know.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Right? People will get stuff done on that day. So I think, you know, that rushes people, obviously, but yeah, definitely you're seeing like, there's this, there's this whole thing about a player should show loyalty and, but there's also works both ways, you know, clubs at times, if you aren't performing or you're maybe having, I don't know, issues or problems off the field.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Sometimes that side of it doesn't get shown as well, you know, where the club will quite happily get rid of you. So yeah, it works, it works both ways. But yeah, unfortunately, the business that they're in is buying and selling players and winning football matches. And it is a ruthless industry, but I went into that, I realised that very quickly, to be quite honest. But I went into that with open eyes.

• 40:49Steven Bartlett?

  Do you regret leaving Liverpool?

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. I do a bit. I had a great time at Portsmouth though, and some of those memories will stay with me forever. But leaving Liverpool is a difficult thing to do. And I was playing for England at the time and I was loving playing for England. I was playing well. And I just thought, we signed Philando Torres. And I'm pragmatic. I understand my role, if you know what I mean, as a player. He was better than me, right? So what do I do now? He's always going to play. He formed a great partnership with Steven Gerrard. He's on absolute fire. I still believe in myself. I still believe I can play for England. I'm still a very good player. I'm just not on Torres's level. So I think he's not, he just wasn't getting injured the whole time I was there.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  And then, you know, I'd left and then he was sold quite quickly to Chelsea. And I saw players, obviously, that were playing.

• 41:47Steven Bartlett?

  Andy Carroll.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you know, Andy Carroll, you know, there was Varane and Gog, players that I felt that, you know, basically I felt like I should, I could have played. Having said that, I would never look back. I've not looked back on any of my, people even say to me now, like, do you miss football? No, I don't miss football. That was a time that I had that was the best. I look back with such fond memories of it. Same at Liverpool. I don't think, oh, should have played there for 10 years. It would have been nice, but it was that, I still cherish the moments that I had with Liverpool. And also, the people, I've met some great people at Portsmouth. It's such a good club. And that was just off the back of winning the FA Cup and I really thought we'd get into the Champions League. Our team was that good.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  So it was, it was, it gave me the opportunity to play and to enjoy my football and to carry on playing for England. So do I regret it? It's the one thing I look back on and think, could I have stayed and could I have been at a top, top club for longer? But I love my time at Portsmouth as well.

• 42:54Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned Gerrard there and I've seen you talk about Lampard and Beckham and Gerrard and Carragher.

• 43:03Steven Bartlett?

  What was it that made those individuals great in your view? What did you see?

• 43:09Speaker 00

  I saw something in like in those players that was slightly different to me like I'm not gonna, I enjoyed what I was doing. Like I looked at the top, top level players that I played with and they never looked like they enjoyed it ever. Like, yeah, Gerrard, Carragher, I'd class in that John Terry Lampard. Like it was always the next game, you know, and I think that's the top level mentality you need to have. For me, at times I'd go, we've won this, lads, let's enjoy this one a little bit. Because we had a massive game on Tuesday, they would already be thinking about, yeah, that was good.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  But it's about the next one. It's always about the next one. And I admire that in people.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  And I had a steely mentality, but I also thought, what are we doing it for? And what, yeah, of course, it's about winning trophies, but also it's about this moment. We've just won like a huge game like in the last minute. Let's celebrate this moment and deal with tomorrow, tomorrow. Whereas sometimes the top level players.

• 44:21Steven Bartlett?

  Like who?

• 44:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, like Steven Gerrard, prime example of that.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Just a constant, it looked like there was, there was no enjoyment. Obviously, there was enjoyment at times, but it felt like it was just the next game was, was more important than enjoying this one. And yeah, of course it was, but I was always a little bit like, can I just enjoy this one a little bit?

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Which is, you know, I think separates the, I'd class myself as an elite sportsman. I played at the top level, but I'm talking top, top. And that's why they're who they are.

• 45:01Steven Bartlett?

  Were they intense?

• 45:02Speaker 00

  So intense, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's what, but I think that's what separates people, isn't it? I think, you know, you've got to want to sacrifice everything and, you know, I did when I was, when I was younger and I did throughout my career. But what I'm saying is that it's that 0.5%, that 1% difference of, of just already thinking about the next game. You know, managers do it and as players, sometimes.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  We of course enjoy that win and think about the next game when it comes. But the top level players that I've played with, like you say, Lampard, John Terry, Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher, I put in that, you know, the Man United boys, like the consistent winners are the ones that I think look like they don't enjoy it. And because they are constantly battling for the next, the next thing.

• 45:56Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I read that you said some players couldn't deal with the intensity of a Steven Gerrard and a Carragher and that you also were much more orientated to try and please them than the manager, which I think was Rafa at the time.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 46:10Steven Bartlett?

  You were trying to please, more concerned with pleasing Carragher and Gerrard, who are the, you know, like club captain, captain, whatever of the team than the manager.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 46:18Steven Bartlett?

  I'm trying, I'm trying to put myself into the changing rooms and understand why that is. What were they doing?

• 46:24Speaker 00

  They're local boys, right? They're, they're legends at the club. When I think of Liverpool, I think of Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher. Like Rafa Benitez, I suppose, was a top manager and he signed me and I, you know, I, I've got only good words to say about him, but Steven Gerrard and Jamie, they're absolute legends of the club and quite ruthless in their, and quite harsh in their appraisal of some players. So I found myself in constantly seeking their approval and my training was, you know, I always remember the first training session when Steve wrapped a ball into my,

• 47:08Speaker 00

  into my feet and I miscontrolled one. And it's like, it's like one look would be, you know, you don't do that here. You're at Liverpool now. It's one, one bad touch isn't tolerated here. So it's, it's only a look, but it was enough to, to make me not do that again. You know, that, that kind of standards are different. And I think you get that from, from certain players like, like Steven and Jamie.

• 47:37Steven Bartlett?

  Would they go individuals in the changing room?

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, it's their club, you know, and I think some people didn't understand that the level of passion that they had for, for the club.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  And like there's players that on, you know, everyone's different. Like you, you'll know only so well. Like in a, in a place of work, there's no two character the same, you know? So you need to know what, what makes people tick. And some people couldn't understand the level of, of passion that they had for the club, of standards that they had. They might have come from a more relaxed club, but unfortunately, if you want to play for Liverpool, you have to have a certain way about you and a certain standard. And if you fall below that standard, then players like Steven and Jamie would, would tell you very quickly.

• 48:32Steven Bartlett?

  In front of everyone?

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen, I've seen players be signed and be written off in one training session, you know?

• 48:40Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Fifteen million pound players coming in and like, he's shit.

• 48:44Steven Bartlett?

  Really? What, I never like?

• 48:46Speaker 00

  No, I mean, that was, you, you wouldn't get many chances.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  But then I've also seen players be written off and then come back.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  Which obviously in their eyes would, would, would make them a good, good fit for, for Liverpool.

• 49:04Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think of Liverpool right now? Got the new Nunes guy coming?

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I like Nunes. I think, you know, he's a bit, I think it's going to take him time to settle in. I don't think we've seen the best of him yet, but as a club, what Jürgen Klopp's done there, I think, I look at young kids now who just expect Liverpool to win the Champions League or win the leagues. You know, it's been 30 odd years before. It was a long time. And Jürgen Klopp's just changed the DNA back into, you know, where they were in the eighties. I mean, it's that, it's that good. And yeah, they're, they're struggling a little bit now. But what he's done for that football club has, has been nothing short of incredible. And, you know, we had some great players at my time at the club, but, you know,

• 49:48Speaker 00

  what they've done as a group has surpassed anything that, you know, that, that spell I had has done.

• 49:55Steven Bartlett?

  Jürgen, Rafa, how many managers did you work, work under in your time?

• 50:01Speaker 00

  God, I mean, loads over the year.

• 50:02Steven Bartlett?

  Almost 10?

• 50:03Speaker 00

  God, that's probably more than that. Probably more than that.

• 50:07Steven Bartlett?

  For you, from working with more than 10 footballing managers at varying, varying different levels and also at the very, very top of international and Premier League football, what made a really good manager?

• 50:17Speaker 00

  I think there's lots of ways to manage and you know I did my coaching badges just before I retired and you try and use a little bit of the good stuff out of everyone but you know obviously Rafa very tactically

• 50:32Speaker 00

  Harry Redknapp was a great people person you know like he understood people and what they wanted and he made it a nice sort of environment you know Sven the same was so relaxed you know in a pressured environment when you were going into a World Cup you just Sven had that aura of calmness around you which you you needed so like yeah great managers that I've had along the way but very, very different qualities in all of them.

• 51:00Steven Bartlett?

  What about the opposite? What was the instances where you thought that's not good management?

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Well, it was certain things like you know with Rafa there was a tendency to be too intricate, to be too methodical, too precise at times. If you could mix a little bit of Rafa and a bit of Harry together, I feel that you'd have the perfect manager because

• 51:25Speaker 00

  with Rafa it was like we're playing Wolves at home and we've got Steven Gerrard, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, we've got the best back four in the league at the moment and one of the best goalkeepers. Just go out and beat them. You know like I don't think it's that difficult. I don't think you have to play with a couple of holding midfield players and you have to have you know this what we do if we don't have to just go and beat them. We're at Anfield, let's go and express ourselves. And that was my only criticism you know like that I could have. I think there was too many times where we were thinking about the opposition instead of saying we're Liverpool, let's go and let's go out and batter them.

• 52:05Steven Bartlett?

  Who was the best manager you played for?

• 52:10Speaker 00

  There's so many reasons for each one. Gerry Francis gave me my debut. Graham Ricks was a big influence on my career. There was good qualities of Sven. I thought Rafa was, at times, was incredible in some of the work he did, some of the sessions and some of the things tactically were really eye-opening. But Harry Redknapp was, I don't think I'll be sitting here without him. Just because he understood football, he understood a player, and he understood how to get the best out of you. And I think he got the best out of me. Certainly at Portsmouth, you know, at Southampton. At Southampton, I was struggling.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  I thought, I've just had a horrible time at Aston Villa. This is my time in the Premier League and it's not going well, I'm not playing. The manager leaves, Harry comes in and he goes, you know, this is my last chance saloon. And I'm thinking, right, well, maybe I'm just a Championship player. Harry comes in, it just changes like that. He says, you and Kevin Fittles will be my front two for the rest of the season. Your scorer has enough goals for us to stay up. And just that confidence, that belief and what like, I suppose I felt my height for the first time that season. And I went out and scored 16 goals, I think, after Christmas. I was on absolute fire, got in the England squad and moved to Liverpool

• 53:35Speaker 00

  at the end of the year. So that, that little spell of six months was crucial to my development as a player, as a person. And would I be sitting here without that? You know, there's lots of things you look at, you know, would I be, would I be here without that, without that? And there's lots of really key, important moments. And that was definitely one of them, Harry coming in.

• 53:59Steven Bartlett?

  It's crazy how much it's like someone believing in you at some point, when maybe you don't believe in yourself can have such a huge impact on how you behave and then ultimately what results you get.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you're getting told that you're this and you're that, you're no good. I don't think, you have to be a real strong character to be able to cope with that.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  And when someone comes in and goes, actually, no, you're doing great stuff.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  It lifts you. It makes you feel, it makes you feel better. So that's the way I would manage and that's the way I think you have to manage these days. I think players are different to how it was when I was coming through. It was very much quite harsh industry and I think now players are a bit more. You have to be a bit more of an arm around the shoulder guy than a, you know, crack the whip kind of manager.

• 54:52Steven Bartlett?

  When I've sat here with like Patrice and Patrice Evra, Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, they all say the same thing about Sir Alex. The first comment they'll make when you ask why he was so good, they all say man of management. And they tell this story of how he was kind of this bespoke, almost like a unique shaped jigsaw piece for each person. So for Nani, he was one Sir Alex Ferguson. And for like, for Gary Neville, he was a different shape because he understood everybody and understood which buttons to press, how hard he could press to get the best out of them. And we tend to think of like management as one, being one thing, like being one, one person to everybody. But even from what you've said there and what they've told me, it seems that great management is being like a bit of a shapeshifter, depending on who you're dealing with.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  I think that is exactly right. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. And the boys that you know, you talk about there of, it's spot on because you can't treat everyone the sort of same way. You can't even train the same way. If you go in, you know, you're telling all the players to go in the gym and, you know, do this, do a certain weight or, you know, be a certain speed. You can't, everyone is different. Everyone's a different character. Everyone's a different mould as a player. You know, certain players, you can, like Cantona, for instance, you talk about Sir Alex Ferguson. You know, not many players could handle Cantona. Alex Ferguson got the best out of Cantona because he treated him different to how he would treat Gary Neville. And it's not.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  You know, it's not rocket science, but it's it's something it's a quality that not many people have. They're not able to adapt. It's like, this is my management style. Everyone has to fall in line with it. I don't think as a manager, that is the best way to go about things. It's about adapting to to people that you might need to speak to on a regular basis. Certain people you might need to tell, you know, some home truths. Certain people that you might need to, you know, constantly get into the office or, you know, let someone else deal with him potentially. You know, you might spot a problem that he might have off the field that he's addressing. You know, there's so many factors to being a manager. And I think Alex Ferguson was, well, he's proven to be the best at that.

• 56:56Steven Bartlett?

  Reminds me of watching that Netflix documentary about Michael Jordan and called The Last Dance.

• 57:01Speaker 00

  Brilliant.

• 57:01Steven Bartlett?

  Brilliant fucking, it changed my life though. I think I like, I got like a Michael Jordan thing upstairs.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I was, you know, when people ask me if I was a basketball player, I actually wanted to be there.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  It was a nice phenomenal documentary, yeah.

• 57:14Steven Bartlett?

  Changed, really, really changed. I'll be honest, and people will be surprised to hear this. I understood that Michael Jordan made shoes, but I didn't really know who he was before then. And when I watched that, it was one of those ones where you put it on and you watch the whole thing in one sitting. I was, it changed my life.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  Well, you're younger than me. I remember him clear as day, you know, playing with the balls, yeah. I mean, he, I think he's the greatest sportsman that's that's ever been. It's a controversial statement. You know, there's so many sportsmen out there, but what Michael Jordan did was was was unbelievable. And that like, I love that kind of mentality, going into that mentality of like winning at all costs and watching that Bulls team, because it wasn't just Jordan, like, that that that whole that whole team was was special.

• 57:55Steven Bartlett?

  That's what I was gonna say, like Dennis Rodman, he was a character where, which sounds much like Cantona in a way, where he would go on benders for a couple of days and the manager goes, listen.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  That's Dennis.

• 58:06Speaker 00

  He's so, honestly though.

• 58:07Steven Bartlett?

  And they won everything.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  Exactly. But like, that's what I'm saying, like, could you, Dennis was a huge part defensively of that setup with the Bulls. And if you didn't have him, if you didn't, and I know letting him, I think this is obviously, you know, that probably too far. But letting him go to Vegas for a couple of weeks, at least you get Dennis back for those games at the end that are important. And I think it's obviously ridiculous for him to do that, but that was in his makeup, that was in his DNA. And, you know, is it, is it better for you to let him go to a rival or do you, do you accept that? And win the, win the titles they did.

• 58:46Steven Bartlett?

  All the great managers, like the ones we've talked about, seemed to have instances where they were okay to make an exception. I guess the risk is, what message does that send to the other players? It's almost a bit of an unfairness. If, how can, if Cantona or Dennis Rodman or whoever can go and do that, yeah, you're having me fucking show up every day and you're pressing me in a different way. That's not fair.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I, I totally agree with you. But I don't know if the boys told the story last time, but, you know, the story of, of, of Ryan Giggs, when he turned up for a team event and he's got no tie on. And Eric Cantona walks in with no tie, a pair of trainers. And Alex Ferguson's obviously absolutely, you know, caned Ryan Giggs and told him to go home and get, get a tie on, like, who do you think you are? Eric walks in, sits down, doesn't say a word.

• 59:31Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, because.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  It's Eric Cantona, you know, and I think Ryan Giggs was just, is just capable of, of winning a football match, as Eric Cantona. But where you do, where, where this does fall down is when those players stop performing. And I've seen that. I've seen players get treated differently. And that's fine, until they're not Eric Cantona, they're not Michael Jordan, they're not Tiger Woods, they're not constantly winning games for you. Because if you set yourself up like that, you, you better perform. And a lot, quite often they can, because they're top players. But you are, you are creating a problem for yourself,

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  I think, if you, if you don't consistently deliver. But maybe that's the reason they do consistently deliver, because they are wired up differently to a lot of the rest of us.

• 1:00:27Steven Bartlett?

  Which kind of makes me think about Ronaldo. And what happened the other week with him storming down the tunnel, et cetera, et cetera. Now, me and my friends in our group chat, we all have kind of different points of view on it. You know, people are saying, oh, Sir Alex would have let him do that, this, whatever, whatever, whatever. For, as someone that's been inside the changing room, and probably seen, seen moments where a certain player was being disruptive. What was your read on that situation and the impact of it?

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  Well, in all honesty, it's nothing new. I think it's because it's Ronaldo, it's a huge story. But I've seen it over the course of my career, players who aren't playing, we call it throwing the toys out the pram. You know, being disruptive, letting their feelings be known that they're not happy with the situation. As players, it's constantly happening, so you don't worry. Because it's Ronaldo, it's blown out of proportion. I've seen it many times. I've seen it with a particular player, we're playing in a pre-season match, he just walked off the pitch while we're playing.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  You know, this is absolutely ridiculous. He's literally walked in with down to 10 men and no one even noticed he'd gone for the first couple of minutes. And just, yeah, like, just fuming. But my take on the situation is, I think it's disrespectful to the players that are playing still. They've just won, or just they were winning at the time.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  I think it was something that he probably regrets. And I think it's something that the manager dealt with, and I think dealt with well.

• 1:02:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, because I remember you saying that good managers that you've worked with could keep the respect. And that being a key word, respect. Now, if he doesn't deal with that properly.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Without doubt. You know what I mean? Listen, players are on every little moment. Like, if you don't know the answer to a particular question, lie. And lie well, because players will, if they sense an element of you've been unsure about a situation, they'll pounce on it.

• 1:02:24Steven Bartlett?

  You're talking about a manager?

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  I'm talking about managers. You know, players, if you're a manager and you don't have control of the dressing room at all times, it's hard to come back from that. Like, you need to command respect and it's a harsh industry. Like, lots of players with egos and trying to manage players that aren't playing with those egos is a tough thing to do. And when you've got someone of the stature of Ronaldo, like, managing him not playing in the dressing room is a difficult thing to do. You know, put yourself in Ten Hag's shoes. It's a situation where the club have, I think, I believe, told him he has to stay because they want to play him. Now he's not playing and the window's shut.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  How do you deal with that problem? It's gonna be a huge issue. But I felt he dealt with it well. I think the club potentially didn't do it very well. If he wasn't gonna play, they should have, they should have sold him. But they're now in that situation where, yeah, he's done that, he's been fined, I assume, and he's been dropped for the next squad. But it looks like he's potentially getting back in. And that is what is the best situation for the club because you don't want Ronaldo training with the kids away from the away from the first team. You want him in and around it because he'll be an asset potentially at the end of games or to start some games.

• 1:03:46Steven Bartlett?

  I'm really compelled by that point you made about like, as a manager, if you don't know the answer to maybe a strategic thing, you're better off just lying than like losing the control of the room.

• 1:03:56Speaker 00

  Well, like, say, if you're in your industry, right, if you're an employee of yours, asks you, what should we do here? I don't know if it's as cutthroat as football, but I think it's better to have an answer than to say you don't know.

• 1:04:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Right? So.

• 1:04:15Steven Bartlett?

  Even if you don't know, because it's giving them confidence.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  Even if you don't know, you say, we're looking into that, we've worked on that, you know, that's something that we, you know, just make, the moment you say you don't know, I think there's an element of, he hasn't got a clue.

• 1:04:31Steven Bartlett?

  There's no satan here.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  Basically, yeah, I think. And I think it was Guardiola who said it. You know, these wise words didn't come from me personally, they were Guardiola's words. And I think it was something to do with if someone asks you a question, you have an answer for them. Even if you don't know it, you'll go do your homework and come back to that question because you need to be seen as a level above the players. You need to have, you know, you need to be more clued up, you need to have more intricate details on the opposition, you need to know about football more than the players do. So they have that respect for you.

• 1:05:07Steven Bartlett?

  Was there other times, you know, you talked about losing the dressing room. Now, I hear that on like, from pundits, I hear, oh, maybe he's lost the dressing room. You sometimes hear that from like other commentators online. But I wondered if that's an actual thing that happens, that you've observed where you go, manager's fucking lost this now. Players start questioning him, you know, behind his back or?

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think you can see it.

• 1:05:27Steven Bartlett?

  When did you see it?

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  I've seen it at certain times. I don't think it'd be fair for me to say names. But I have seen it in certain dressing rooms where a manager has lost it a little bit. We had. We had a situation at Stoke where we had probably the best dressing room I've ever been a part of. And then we added some more talented players, more than hardworking, honest players, if you like. And we had, for a spell, we had a really good mix of that real quality and that kind of determination and spirit.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  And then it went too far the other way. It was, you know, almost too much quality and not enough effort, determination, team spirit, ethics, standards. They slipped, you know, and I've seen things that I'd never seen before.

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  I talked about the player walking off the pitch that happened in that season. And it culminated in relegation, you know, so when you talk about lost the dressing room, I class myself in that in that scenario because I was more of a, I was an older player then. And maybe I let things go, things go a bit as well, you know, like not my standards personally didn't drop, but I let people get away with things when I was an older player, like I should have been Steven Gerrard in this situation, you know, I should have been a player that flagged it up maybe.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  That wrangles with me, like I let things go. I know it wasn't my job to do that, but I was an experienced player.

• 1:07:09Steven Bartlett?

  When you say you've not seen, you saw things you hadn't seen before. It kind of reminded me somewhat of what I remember Rio saying about when he moved to, I think it was QPR from Manchester United and he saw just a completely different dressing room culture.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly right. Well, let's ask our friends of Rio, speak to him about that time. Feels similar, feels similar in some ways, like you, you have, or there's too many doing what they want.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Just being late or little, little things like that, like being, being late, being late on the training pitch, being late for games, you know, not wearing the right suit or not wearing the right tracksuits to games, wearing whatever they want, you know, wearing caps when you're not supposed to. Just little things like that that makes you become lax, like and we might go a goal down, two goals down and you can see players sort of, you know, waving their arms around and not tracking back. And I remember asking a particular player like, You stopped trying, you stopped working. And he said, yeah. I said, what? And he said, I did, yeah. I said, why? He said, we were three down.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  I couldn't believe it. You know, it's 30,000 people in a stadium, right? That have paid to watch us play and you've given up. And I know it's horrible, those games, they're horrible. You're just, but at least you've got to do is run round.

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  And that's, that's when I knew we were in big trouble.

• 1:08:41Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny that it's the small, the small things.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  They all add up.

• 1:08:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  They all add up.

• 1:08:48Steven Bartlett?

  Does that not start with the manager, though, in those situations where the manager's just not calling it out enough? He's not punishing, you know, he lets one thing slide, lets two things slide. Before you know it, you're at the bottom of the fucking slope.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was exactly what happened. There were certain things that were let go and you're like, whoa. And then you feel like you can get away with more, with more, with more. And there was a certain thing where you'd have to run after a game if you didn't play. So at that time, like I was on, I was 37 years old, you know, I was, sometimes I was on the bench and I'd be out there running. And, you know, there was a younger player not, not out after the game, doing his fitness work. And I came in, I'm like, what's going on, you know?

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  Why am I 37, I'm out here running after a game and this 25 year old is, is not, which I didn't want to.

• 1:09:36Steven Bartlett?

  He didn't want to?

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  Didn't want to. Right. So these, these are the standards I'm, I'm talking about. So you've got to, that's, that's, you've been asked to do it. You don't, you don't pick and choose whether you do it or not. But that was allowed to happen. Anyway, it happened again. Anyway, this particular player said, right, because he hasn't run after the game, we're all in on Sunday. Right. So the whole team come in on Sunday. We were coming, this was supposed to be our day off. So we're all in training and the particular player didn't turn up for training, right? So we're all in because of him and he doesn't turn up. So, I mean, you can imagine what the lads are like, but just little, I say little

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  things, I mean, that was a big thing, but just standard slipping and listen, you know, it all ends, everyone knows where it ends, it ends badly.

• 1:10:27Steven Bartlett?

  When did you decide that your football career was over? Tell me about that decision and that time in your life.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was lucky. I got the opportunity to get out of that dressing room that I was in at Stoke, which was difficult. And I got the opportunity to play for the exact opposite at Burnley and I finished in the Premier League. And I knew that I was done that season because I was on the bench a lot and there was players playing ahead of me that I knew should have been ahead of me. And I thought to myself, I am just a Plan B now. You know, I'm coming on at the end of games and I still felt fit. I still felt I could have an impact, but I knew inside my own head. So I told my family, I told Abby and I told, you know, the kids were still very young. And we all went to the game. So they, you know, they didn't all come. I'm, you know, a young baby, you know, they didn't often come to the games now. I

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  didn't play much. So they all came and it was nice because I knew, no one else knew, but I knew that it was my last game of football. It was against Arsenal at Burnley. And all the family came on and you know when you walk around the pitch at the end. And I've got a picture at home on the wall of me and the, it was three kids we had at the time, I've got four now, believe it or not. But the three of us on the pitch and a lovely picture of me walking out. It's my last game of professional football. I must have played, you know, 600, 700 games. It's my last game. I knew it, but no one else did. But yeah, lovely picture, lovely moment. And then it just sort of comes flooding in that it's over. 20 years I played, I left school at 16, I retired at 38. 22 years, every day

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  of my life doing something that you loved. I look back on it, it was such fond memories. I was so lucky to have played in an era that was, was full of great players. I managed to play for England and, you know, I probably exceeded what I thought I could ever achieve. So always look back on it fondly. When people ask me, do you miss it? No, I don't miss it. I cherish the moments that I had.

• 1:12:29Steven Bartlett?

  And your dad, was your dad there that day? I know you played a huge role.

• 1:12:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, my dad was there that day, yeah. And, you know, he was the one, because he was there every single, I don't think he missed a game. And he was part of my superstition, bizarrely. He was part of, you know, if I didn't see him before a game, I'd feel unnerved. You know, like, I'd feel like, where is he? And don't get me wrong, there were times where I was on the bench towards the end and he got a season ticket at QPR.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  And deservedly so, you know, I didn't want to put him through that. But it was, yeah, I mean, he was, he was with me every step of the way.

• 1:13:00Steven Bartlett?

  He came through every game?

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think he missed many. A handful, you know, of those 600, 700, right from when I was a kid. So, yeah, it was like a comfort blanket when I saw, and he would, he would watch me, not even at kickoff, he would watch me. He'd be the first in the stadium. I would, I would walk out at, before the warm-up. And I'd see him, and I'd, I'd always see him, you know, six foot five, I'd always be able to see him. And he'd give me a little wave and he'd watch our warmed up. And then after the game, he'd even say, like, I knew he'd have a good game in the warm-up, because he'd always watch even the warm-up. So, yeah.

• 1:13:36Steven Bartlett?

  When your career ended, did you ever have a conversation with him about, about your journey in football, I guess? Was there ever like any conclusive conversations about how it all went and?

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know what, like, we had sort of like a, like a bit of a retirement video, if you like. And I've got together a load of ex-players and managers that I've played with, which was nice and made it, put it on a big screen. But I don't, I don't think I've ever sat down and discussed at length my career. I mean, life's too busy, isn't it? You know, I look at, I've got, you know, a wall like you have and a few sort of accolades, match balls, England caps on the wall. Only in one particular room, I'm only allowed like a little dungeon room.

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  But I've got them on the wall and I look back and I've got some pictures on there and I look at the moments and I think like they were some great times.

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  But like I say, life moves quick and I love, I love what I'm doing now and I've gone straight into doing other things. And I was very conscious of that, like I planned, I planned a little bit of that, you know, I planned. While I was still playing, I did the podcast and I did the first book that I did. And like, and I did my coaching badges as well. So my coach, I thought, you know, maybe I'll be a manager. I didn't know, but I just basically, I was so scared of waking up on that Monday. Because every player that I've ever played with just says to me like, when you retired, like you've forgotten like that, you. It's difficult, it's hard to get your head around it, keep playing as long as you can. You always hear these horror stories.

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  So I was so worried about it. I just thought, right, I need to do everything now before I retire. And I think it was the best thing I ever did was to stay, was to do things while I was still playing. To, to test things out and see what I want to go into and.

• 1:15:25Steven Bartlett?

  Start building that bridge, I guess.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  A little bit, yeah, to the other side, if you like. And like I say, the book and the podcast just went bang and that, I just got propelled into a, into a world in the, in the media, really.

• 1:15:37Steven Bartlett?

  Was there ever a moment when you, after you'd retired, where you, where you had a bit of a down day? And you thought, you know, because I remember reading, I think in your book where you talk about how you spend those 20 years, like everything's sorted for you. Your schedule's sorted, you know where you're going to be, you kind of know there's so much structure in your life. And then suddenly the structure's gone and a real clear sense of like orientation and collective purpose has gone. Was there ever a, a, a post-retirement moment where you go, ugh?

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  I don't think I've had that, you know, and I feel really lucky, like, because I know so many players that have really struggled since they're retired. And I feel so lucky in, in what I'm doing now. Like, I'd love to sit here and I've got to be honest with you, I can't. I, I, I have, I haven't had that. And what I, what I don't like is. Not having that that structure. Like, for for instance, I know exactly where I'm gonna be on September the sixteenth, on, you know, February the twelfth. I know where I'm gonna be, I know where I'm gonna be training. But now, I couldn't tell you what I'm doing next week. Like, things come up, things change. Um, I don't like that. I like, I've been institutionalized, if you like. I'm in a, I like getting told on a Monday, we do this.

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  You know, I don't wanna, it was, I suppose for twenty years, I didn't have to grow up.

• 1:16:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  You know, now I do. Um, I came straight from school to people, no, they used to take our passports off us, you know, we weren't even allowed to, they didn't trust us enough to to to get ourselves to the airport, you know. It was, that's how football is. Everything's done for you so you can purely concentrate on football. And I I quite like that in a in a weird way, because you you solely focus on one thing. Whereas now, there's lots of different things that I do. Um, and.

• 1:17:24Steven Bartlett?

  Lots of choice.

• 1:17:25Speaker 00

  Choices, yeah, like, lots of decisions to make. Yeah, it's like being an adult, it's not great.

• 1:17:31Steven Bartlett?

  It reminds me of, you know, Raphael Raphael Rowe, who was the guy who was imprisoned when he was younger for a crime he didn't commit, sentenced till I came out. And he was telling me, he was like, honestly, when I came out, it's like, I went to a supermarket and there's like seven types of beans.

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:44Steven Bartlett?

  And he stood in the supermarket going, what the fuck do I do?

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  What do I do?

• 1:17:47Steven Bartlett?

  And he hated it, and you'd have, him and his partner would clash because he was never used to making decisions. In prison, you get one type of fucking beans.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  So true, love. And I like that, I honestly like with with football, like, you are, you that, you are told what to be, what to do at all times until you're on the football pitch. But even something really that as well, you know, your manager's telling you what to do. But I quite liked it in some ways, but obviously the freedom is great in other ways, you know, like I have at Christmas now, I can spend time with the kids if I choose to have a week off it. In during the winter, I can have that, you know, there's there's pros and negatives to both.

• 1:18:20Steven Bartlett?

  Are you a workaholic?

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

  Um, I think I've got a good work ethic, definitely.

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  Without doubt, I enjoy it. I enjoy getting up and having a purpose.

• 1:18:31Steven Bartlett?

  Do you feel like you're out of balance, though?

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm finding the balance really tough.

• 1:18:35Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:18:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Steven Bartlett?

  Same.

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  Really tough.

• 1:18:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Speaker 00

  Obviously, you know, I speak to her about this as well because we, I struggle, like I'll have one week where I'm constantly on the go. And then one week, you know, a little bit quieter, but yeah, I sort of sold her the dream of retirement as being retirement. And it hasn't quite worked out that way because I love doing what I'm doing.

• 1:18:58Steven Bartlett?

  Where did you sell her?

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  Well, I sold her, like, we'd be going to the gym every day, you know, little juices.

• 1:19:04Speaker 00

  We'd be on dog walks. I said, you know, we're just Rome, yeah.

• 1:19:08Steven Bartlett?

  Rome, quality time.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, quality time.

• 1:19:11Steven Bartlett?

  Quality time, yeah.

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  And yeah, it's not quite worked out that way. But she knows I'm passionate about what I do. I'm very, I love what I do now. And I'm still involved in football, which I love. You know, like I, like I say, I do the podcast that I absolutely love doing. And various other bits and pieces come up and I'm in a fortunate position. I know I'm in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose the stuff that I do and I do it purely for enjoyment. And of course, you know, I try and make it as the best it can be and so I can earn off it. But the, the main focus was the same as my football career, really, was to do something that you enjoy. And I'm lucky in the, in the fact that I, I can still do that.

• 1:19:53Steven Bartlett?

  Is your main

• 1:19:57Steven Bartlett?

  dispute in your relationship, because this is the answer for mine, is, is this issue of quality time? Is like, that's the thing I struggle with most is doing all this stuff and constantly da, da, da, da, da. And then being there to be, to give this person quality time that they want, where you just go for the fucking walk and you just do like nothing. It seems like nothing, but obviously there's something, it's something. Picnic.

• 1:20:18Speaker 00

  But you, you must find that hard. Like I, I find that hard to, but she's the same, you know. Like, I think it'd be easy to say that.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  I don't know, like, there's a misconception of maybe footballers' wives that, you know, they just relax all day and, you know, she's so driven and she drives me, to be honest. And she's, I run all my decisions past her. And I don't think a lot of people know that about her, but she's like, she's on it. And, you know what, so that's, that's good in the fact that if we go for a walk together, we'll have some quality time together, but we both won't switch off together. You know, like, we're still bouncing ideas off each other. And I'm glad that I can have someone like that. So, you know, yeah, of course we switch off at times, but we're still, we're still very on it, both of us.

• 1:21:09Steven Bartlett?

  So your podcast, absolute smash hit. A lot of, a lot of ex-players, ex-athletes have started podcasts. I can't think of any that have risen to the heights that yours has risen to. Mike Tyson has a great podcast in the United States. It's really been a bit of a cult phenomenon, the show. And as you kind of said, and I've heard you talk about the diversity a few times, and it's always, you're always, you know, saying very nice things and saying that, you know, our production and stuff is, is, is great. But it is like a couple of lads in a pub chatting.

• 1:21:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I suppose that is, that is our thing. I think it was, it is a reflection of me. It's what I like to do. So, and I think, I suppose we could now, because things have gone well, upgrade our setup a little bit. But it doesn't, it feels like we need to stay where we are. We love being in the pub. We like, you know, having a bit of a drink while we do it. And it feels, certainly during lockdown, you know, we have lots of comments from listeners and people writing in and they feel like they're in there with us, you know, and it feels like, obviously, this is a different kind of podcast, you know, more serious, more enlightening, maybe. But I try and, I try and take people inside

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  the world of what it's like being a footballer. And it's a mad funny world. It is, and of course, it's lighthearted, but hopefully it's a little bit informative as well. And when I say I love doing it, it's genuinely the most fun. When I say to Ab, I'm going to work, she's like, are you joking?

• 1:22:45Speaker 00

  I'm leaving there with the four children and I'm going to a pub in town to record with lads that I get on really, really well with and just talking football. I suppose that is, that is the, you know, for a lot of people, certainly in my world, that is the ideal job. And I'm, I feel very fortunate that I've got it.

• 1:23:07Steven Bartlett?

  The podcast offers people that kind of, that sense of connection and community like they are in the pub with you, which some people don't have unfortunately these days in a world that's getting lonelier. But at the same time, it's not just like, it's not just banter. I remember seeing the episode with Prince William and where you talked about mental health and those kind of topics. And I think one of your, your co-hosts, I can't remember which one, shared some of the feedback that you guys get from the audience that are listening. That particular episode with Prince William, how the fuck did you get it for a start? How did you, how did you get Prince William to have a pint with you on the podcast?

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  There are points in this podcast, like obviously like where it all started from, I didn't have, you know, I was just telling a story. I didn't know what a podcast was, you know, obviously now I know that, you know, there's a huge industry of things, but I, I was just talking literally as I was talking to my, how I would talk to my mates. And obviously, yeah, we built up like a, like a big following and then people started calling us about coming, about coming on. And that was a call we had from the palace was, was, I promise you was, you know, we had, we had, there was one point that was like, we had Elton John had called and Prince William had called, not, not personally, but you know, their team of people had called us about coming on. And obviously with Elton, that's

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  the difference though, it was funny, but with Prince William, you know, we made it happen and we ended up going to the Kensington Palace, which was an amazing day out because we, we took, you know, our, our group of lads and we had a beer over the road. While we went in and then Prince William, I talk about the Sam Rat, the Indian restaurant that I used to go to with my mates as a kid. And when Prince William brought in the delivery and put it down, and I was thinking if my mates, we used to go there as kids, my family, and you know, he's doing this. And it was just so surreal. But like you say, we got to talk about a range of topics. And I suppose, certainly in football, there's a lot, because there's a stigma in football of, you know, it's very macho and you have

• 1:25:07Speaker 00

  to, you know, you have to be, you have to man up, you know, like you, you have to, there's this stigma. And I think that this is why sort of the target audience for Prince William and his heads, I think it's Heads Together or Heads Up Charity, for mental health is targeting the right people, if you like, the people that don't speak out. So I think he wanted to tap into sort of our audience that would be very much, don't show any weakness, you know, that football world, if you know what I mean. So yeah, I think that was something that he wanted to touch, touch base with. I'd done something with him called a team talk, I think it was, a royal team talk, I think it was called on BBC. And we talked about, you know, mental health and stories in football. That's the

• 1:25:52Speaker 00

  first time I shared my issues as, you know, I'd never ever talked about anything. I was one of those people that kept everything. So yeah, it was a nice, it was, it was great, it was a great experience for us as a podcast. And I think hopefully it helped a few people as well.

• 1:26:07Steven Bartlett?

  You talked about on that podcast, going into the changing room and like opening up to your teammates at one point.

• 1:26:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I, I found it really difficult to, I'm one of those people that keeps everything aside, right? I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't talk about, I see Abby every single night, like picking up the phones with her friends and chatting about anything. I mean, I just don't do that. I don't, I wouldn't dream of picking up the phone and, and, you know, talking about a problem. But since these kinds of things that I've done, since that podcast, since, you know, I've done a, a various, you know, the Movember campaign, I've worked with them, I've worked with various kind of men's mental health charities. And they, it is, it does make you think. And, you know, I have started doing more

• 1:26:55Speaker 00

  stuff. I have started, you know, reaching out to my friends. And you realise actually that people aren't always, they'll say they're always all right, but they're not. That's something I've realised.

• 1:27:06Steven Bartlett?

  I think the quote from that, from that podcast with Prince William was, you'd gone into the dressing room, you'd shared how you were feeling with your teammates and instantly you kind of felt lighter because of it. You felt better for opening up.

• 1:27:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's something that I definitely found like I've.

• 1:27:22Steven Bartlett?

  When was that?

• 1:27:24Speaker 00

  No, that was the Royal Team Talk. We opened up, it was me, Thierry Henry, Danny Rose, who was quite open with his mental health problems, Gareth Southgate, I think Dan Walker that was the presenter and Prince William. And like, when, when you actually get like a, like a group of lads there talking, like Prince, Prince William wasn't Prince William, you know? Thierry Henry wasn't Thierry Henry, it was just a group of blokes talking. And Prince William's talking about bereavement and you think, you know, oh my God, like you don't, I don't know, it's like, that's not real. It's like a not real life. And you think actually, when he's sitting there, he's just a lad, he's lost his mum.

• 1:28:06Steven Bartlett?

  And he's got that fucking.

• 1:28:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, it was an amazing talk, because you're not seeing her as Princess Diana and you're not seeing him as the future King of England. You're seeing him as a man who's struggling, who's lost his mum. And I think sometimes when you read things and you, you look at things, like I say, it's that, it's that thing of playing football and not realising that they're actually, it's on a human level, it's just, it's just a fellow that's, that's lost his, that's lost his mum and has struggled with that over time.

• 1:28:38Steven Bartlett?

  And you, when you say you opened up, you're referring to the stuff you've talked about today with.

• 1:28:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, me personally, yeah, I opened up about, yeah, looking different a bit, you know, like and getting heckled and being sort of that impressionable teenager and sort of dealing with that, with that kind of pressure of looking different, if you like. Bizarrely, that's become sort of like my superpower now. It's become sort of me. It's like, I'm recognisable, I am.

• 1:29:11Speaker 00

  I think people understand like all my insecurities, if you like, have been what has probably made me successful in in the stuff that I've gone on to do.

• 1:29:24Steven Bartlett?

  When you do look back at your success and in hindsight, you go, okay, maybe this was a big part of it. This was part of it. What are the the key things that in hindsight you go, that's why I was successful. Because earlier on, you said like, most of the football players, especially the strikers, didn't look like you.

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:29:40Steven Bartlett?

  But you were still successful. You still played at the very top of the game. You still had the England caps. You still scored all those goals for England. So what was it about you?

• 1:29:48Speaker 00

  Um, I I listen, I had I had ability. I I, you know, I did, I did. I felt like I was a good player and I worked on that. Like, that was something that if I was going to be tall, I wasn't going to be this, what everyone thought I was going to be, you know, um, which was that big target you can lump the ball up to, you know, I wanted to have technical ability. So I worked on that. I constantly worked on that. So that was obviously something that stood me out. And then I had to work on my on my heading because I was incredibly tall, but I didn't have to jump as a young lad. And then when you get to play professional football, you then realise that, you know, people are going to jump, they're going to beat you in the air. And it looks ridiculous if you're six foot seven and you're losing headers. So I had to work on on my heading. And obviously,

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  it's determination, it's the the will to succeed, it's the desire, it's the ability to deal with knockbacks that stand you out probably from from the rest.

• 1:30:48Steven Bartlett?

  Knockbacks. Ever, did you ever have an experience with, especially through the period with Liverpool where you went eight eighteen games without scoring and the various twists and turns throughout your career? Did you ever experience anxiety?

• 1:31:02Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, I'd say so. I mean, listen, I'm not an expert on this field. Um, I, I wouldn't say I'm an anxious person. Um, like I say, I'm a glass half full kind of person. But, um, I would say, of course, like in football in terms, of course, I was anxious. I was snatching at, uh, chances. Um, and was I anxious off the field? Yeah. Couldn't switch off from it. Couldn't stop thinking about it. Couldn't sleep. So.

• 1:31:30Steven Bartlett?

  Couldn't sleep?

• 1:31:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been able to sleep. Um, certainly after games, but I found that difficult anyway. That the kind of buzz that you get from playing a match under the lights especially is so difficult to sleep after. I think physically impossible at times.

• 1:31:49Steven Bartlett?

  Where are you now in terms of your mental wellbeing and your mental health?

• 1:31:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, good, good. Yeah, like I would never, I would never, um. I don't think I'd class myself as, as, as ever, as having problems. Um, I've had issues that I've had to manage personally, like everyone has, I think. But I'd say I'm in a good place. I just need to get the balance right between, um, you know, this new field that I'm in, if you like, and, and family life, you know, I need to, I need to get the right, the right balance where I'm working enough to sort of satisfy that, that hunger to keep going and, and not miss what is important, you know, which is my kids, which I adore. And I wanna see, I wanna see grow up. Um, and I wanna be at the forefront of that. I wanna be hands on, you know? So gotta try and work that balance out somehow.

• 1:32:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's my biggest problem. I always, you know, I think, I always hear this voice, which is like, when is enough enough? Like, when is enough gonna be enough? Like, podcast is going great, business is going great. You've done, achieved loads of things, like.

• 1:32:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:32:50Steven Bartlett?

  What, what else do you need?

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  When is enough enough? I, I, this, that, it's, it's a difficult one because I, I think it's, for me, it's about, it's about like the work, but it's about enjoying it. And, um, you know, if it stops being fun, then I think that's the time to, to call it quits.

• 1:33:07Steven Bartlett?

  Crouch Fest.

• 1:33:10Steven Bartlett?

  Nineteenth of November?

• 1:33:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, nineteenth of November. It's, um.

• 1:33:14Steven Bartlett?

  What is, I mean, I've, I've seen it because I watched all the videos from like two thousand and nineteen.

• 1:33:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:33:18Steven Bartlett?

  It looked like a right fucking laugh. Liam Ballack was there.

• 1:33:20Speaker 00

  It was so much fun. Yeah. Well, the thing is like people buy tickets and not have a clue what they're letting themselves in for. And it is one of the best things that we've ever done and we just thought we'd scale it up this time. Last time we had Liam Gallagher on, we had Catherine Jenkins singing the Champions League anthem, the fellow that wrote the Champions League anthem spoke to us, Tom Grennan, you met at six, we had people dressed as referees, fancy dress. It was absolute carnage and yeah, now we're at Wembley Arena, we've scaled it up.

• 1:33:52Steven Bartlett?

  Wembley Arena.

• 1:33:53Speaker 00

  Wembley Arena.

• 1:33:53Steven Bartlett?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:33:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I mean, we've probably bitten off more than we can chew.

• 1:34:00Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna lie to you, but yeah, great guests and looking forward to it so much.

• 1:34:04Steven Bartlett?

  What are you promising for this Crouch Fest?

• 1:34:07Speaker 00

  Well, that's the thing, we don't promise anything.

• 1:34:09Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so you don't say anything.

• 1:34:10Speaker 00

  We literally don't say a word to anyone and we've got, obviously, I mean, some of the things that we've been getting up to has been a lot of fun and some of the knockbacks that we've had have been priceless because we're asking things that Wembley Arena has never seen before. But yeah, honestly, I can't tell you how much fun the last one was and if it was half as good, it will be a great event.

• 1:34:34Steven Bartlett?

  Well, everyone listening, there's a few tickets left, so you can go, there might not be by the time this comes out, but you can go buy tickets online for Crouch Fest. It looks like, I mean, I watched the highlights from 2019 and it looked like a huge group of mates pissed, having a laugh.

• 1:34:51Speaker 00

  That's exactly what it is. Yeah, I can't dress it up anymore, but you're welcome to come.

• 1:34:56Steven Bartlett?

  If I'm here, I'll come, for sure, for sure. They looked really, really good. What is your goal now? What is next for you? All these things going on in your life, the media stuff, you're presenting on BT, et cetera, et cetera. You've got the podcast, you've got this amazing book you've just written, well, it's just come out in October, I believe, How to Be an Ex-Footballer. The reviews for this book are insane. Much of the stories you've told to me today, some of them are in here, some of them are in your previous book, but both books are Sunday Times Top Bin's bestseller. What is next? What is the?

• 1:35:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I say, like this, I'm finding my feet. I have no clue, I had no clue where I was gonna go. I didn't know what angle to go for. I'm doing things because I enjoy them and like, when you say what is your goal? I don't wanna come on here, Diary of a CEO, right? And everyone's got a goal, everyone's got a purpose, everyone knows what they're gonna do. I have to be honest with you, I don't, I don't have a goal. I, I don't have, I don't wanna be doing this in five years or that in five years. My goal was achieved, like, all I wanted to be was a football player, all I wanted to do was be,

• 1:36:07Speaker 00

  uh, was do it at any level, every single day. And then I felt like I, I did that, I achieved it, I achieved more than I ever thought I would. And now, everything is, you know, that, that is happening to me is, is, are things that I'm enjoying and there are routes and avenues that I'm taking, but there's no particular goal. Um, and I know that might be difficult for you to, especially to, to understand, but I, I just can't, I'm, I haven't got a, a motive or a plan. I'm just living each day and enjoying each day, um, that I'm given and, and I feel like I'm blessed in the situation that I'm in, but this is genuine, that is the most genuine thing I can tell you. I, I don't have a, an end goal.

• 1:36:50Steven Bartlett?

  I think you'd be surprised how, um, common that is. I've, you know, I think people think that I have everything figured out, or a god, necessarily like a North Star or god, but I've said on this podcast a million times that I've never written a business plan in my life. It's really about like doing my best today and doing that every day and kind of being open to the things that come along. Cause goals can also be really unhelpful in the sense of like, it might make you miss an opportunity. If you had a goal when you left football to become a coach, you might have missed the opportunity to do the podcast, or, or all these other things.

• 1:37:20Speaker 00

  Well, I feel like it's also now reminded in some way, you go like, you have the end goal, but like you say, these missed opportunities, like, like, I did the book, I did the podcast and things took off and then opportunities come off the back of that. And as long as those things are going well, the opportunities will continue to come. And then you might find that you enjoy something else or a different avenue. And that is where I'm going, I'm on a journey that I have no clue where it's going, but I'm enjoying it and long may it last.

• 1:37:47Steven Bartlett?

  At the start, you, you mentioned that the way you were treated when you were younger, looking a bit different, meant that you used kind of self disparagement, criticizing yourself, making a joke out of yourself first as a defense mechanism. Much of the reason why people love your books, love your podcast is because they're like really, really funny. And they make people laugh. And even from like hanging out with you today for a couple of hours, whatever. You are one of those real funny people. I mean, on the front of your book, it says, a comedy genius.

• 1:38:14Speaker 00

  I didn't write that, by the way.

• 1:38:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, you did.

• 1:38:18Steven Bartlett?

  No, but it's interesting. I just find it interesting as an observation that the thing that people criticised you for created a quality in you, which is, seems to be, from my very naive assumption, like, critical now to your success and why people are so fond of you. Is that an accurate assessment?

• 1:38:35Speaker 00

  It's spot on. You know, I sort of, I, my kind of like humour and being able to laugh at myself was a, was a self-defence mechanism where people were trying to take the mick out of me. I would take the mick out of myself in a better way than they were about to do. So that makes me self-deprecating. And I think that is very uncommon for a footballer to be self-deprecating. It was groundbreaking. And I don't think it should be, but let's be honest, I think it was a bit, you know. Not many players that play for England let their guard down at any point or want to criticise themselves

• 1:39:13Speaker 00

  or have a laugh at themselves. And that, that is something maybe that has, that's set me apart, that I'm aware of

• 1:39:23Speaker 00

  from other players. And that is not me being contrived or, you know, trying to force an agenda. I think anyone who has played with me over the course of 20 years will say to you, this is the person that they, they knew in the dressing room. But I think I'm able to showcase that a little bit more by being less guarded because I haven't got a football club telling me to not talk too much or, you know, you're a footballer, shut up. Like now I can do whatever I like. And fortunately, I've been in a position where, I suppose, the general public or fans that are buying into what I'm doing are enjoying it. And, you know, for as long as they are enjoying it, I'll continue to do it. And when they're not, I'll fuck off.

• 1:40:14Steven Bartlett?

  It reminds me a lot of Lewis Capaldi, who I sat with, where he just seems to be doing whatever the fuck he wants to do.

• 1:40:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I admire him so much, you know, like, he's the kind of thing that I, you know, I love to see, like. And I watched it, I watched it recently, I think he was on Jonathan Ross, and, uh, he was brilliant, like, he's hilarious. And he looks like he wants, he's enjoying what he's doing and, um, you know, he's himself. And I think that that is what I'm doing. Thankfully, um, people are hopefully enjoying.

• 1:40:45Steven Bartlett?

  A hundred percent, they are enjoying it. I think that's a huge understatement. And it seems to be the case from the people I've sat here with on this podcast, um, seems to be the case that those that are themselves, that are able to build a life based on being themselves, are living the most sustainable and fulfilling lives. It's fucking difficult not being yourself for a long period of time, and it's not fun, right?

• 1:41:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you can't get tripped up if you're, if you're being yourself.

• 1:41:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:08Speaker 00

  You can't, the guard never slips, does it?

• 1:41:10Steven Bartlett?

  But it feels like a risk to some people. You can see why.

• 1:41:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a risk if no one likes you.

• 1:41:18Steven Bartlett?

  No, you're right. You're actually right. It's only a risk if you're a dickhead. No, you're completely right.

• 1:41:25Speaker 00

  Be someone else if you want to.

• 1:41:30Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to ask it for. And the question that's been left for you is, what moment has caused you to be the most afraid in your life?

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  It's difficult. I think I've been in situations where, um, none of this matters, does it? Let's be honest. But I, I'm thinking about football terms. I was thinking straight away, I went to like, what about when I didn't score? And I did this, when I wasn't going to make it as a footballer, like, like, none of that matters, does it?

• 1:42:09Speaker 00

  Your family's the most important thing. And when you have a, a scare.

• 1:42:16Speaker 00

  Personally, or one of your, you know, close people, your wife or your kids has an issue.

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  That is when you're the most scared that you'll ever be. And I think, you know, I've had, I've had those, those worries.

• 1:42:34Speaker 00

  And, and that's when you, you really realise what's, what's important. Obviously, when the, you know, the, the pandemic and, you know, we were in lockdown and that kind of thing. And you realise, actually, none of it matters. You know, like, it was just, it was, I had my family and we were fortunate, obviously, to be in a, in a, in a nice house. And I just thought, you know, we are incredibly lucky, even if we don't have, if we don't have anything, we've got each other, you know. And that, I think that was, I think it's the most scared when someone, when, when you have a scare with someone close to you, which we have had. And you get through that. That's, that's the most scary of it.

• 1:43:16Steven Bartlett?

  That's exactly what came to mind for me. It was when, I think I must have been 10, and my mum called me and told me, I believe she called me and told me she had cancer in her breast because she had found a lump. And then it transpired it was a cyst, it was fine. But that period of like, several days believing that my mum's gonna die when I'm 10.

• 1:43:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:34Steven Bartlett?

  Nothing, I mean, everything pales in comparison. And you realise that fuck all matters, as you said.

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, like, it's so weird. Like, I went to, like, football then, like, straight away. Then you actually think, oh, wait a minute, that doesn't, it doesn't matter, does it? The most scared I've been is when you have a scare in the family, without doubt.

• 1:43:52Steven Bartlett?

  Peter, thank you. Thank you for so many reasons. Thank you for inspiring me in this podcast. You've been a big inspiration for us. You know, like, the production is one thing. I know you've commented on the production before, but what you have is something that's so, like, authentic and brilliant. And that's the impossible thing to create. To, to find like a authentic formula that's resonant with, with the audience that you have and give so much to them. It's like, it's, it's a lot and it's not fucking easy. And, you know, I, I watched your playing career. I've watched, you know, I've watched you play in all the clubs you've played in. The thing that I'm like, that is fucking unbelievable, is actually what you've been able to do since. You know, and that says a lot because you got to Champions League finals and you played for the best clubs in the land. But watching what you've done since, I think is even tougher.

• 1:44:35Steven Bartlett?

  That's just my perspective and I've taken a huge amount of inspiration from that. Your book is amazing. Crouch Fest is obviously going to be amazing because you guys just have a magic that is like impossible to replicate. And so you got, you know, it's fun to watch you guys. It's really, really fun to watch your journey and to not know where it's going to go. I mean, like Prince William walking in, you're in this pub toilet, like, I just know it's fucking brilliant. And it's perfectly authentically brilliant. So thank you for coming and doing this. It's a huge compliment to us that you'd come and do it. And it's been great chatting to you and meeting you.

• 1:45:06Speaker 00

  No, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

• 1:45:09Steven Bartlett?

  Why are you laughing?

• 1:45:10Speaker 00

  I'm just laughing because I like smiling. I have enjoyed it. No, I genuinely have enjoyed it. And it's nice to see a professional setup.

• 1:45:22Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much.