Kurt Sutter Is A Fearless Storyteller

Fundamentally, I'm a people pleaser. It took years of sobriety before I realized this is more character defect than positive attribute. I continue to struggle with it often. Kurt Sutter doesn't have this problem. A writer, actor, director, and long-time loyal friend, Kurt is a man utterly unafraid to be exactly who he is — a passionate artist committed to his creative vision for both life and art. Kurt's description of his upbringing is vintage Sutter: Raised in the shadow of Rahway prison, Kurt spent most of his New Jersey childhood indoors, away from people, three feet from a TV screen. That's where he learned the essentials of storytelling and the comic significance of anvils. Anvils aside, you most likely know Kurt as the creator, head writer and showrunner of Sons of Anarchy, the critically acclaimed outlaw motorcycle club psychodrama with a fanbase so rabid, it became the biggest hit television show in the FX network’s history. After humble beginnings performing off-off-Broadway in theatres, lofts and (in his words) holding cells (more vintage Sutter), Kurt caught his first major break in 2001, booking a staff writer gig on FX's The Shield, where he spent the next seven years mastering the fundamentals of fearless television storytelling and rising up the ranks to graduate as one of the show's coveted Executive Producers. Then came Sons. A seven-year, Shakespearean eruption of vigilantism, government corruption, racism, loyalty and human transformation, the show struck an immediate cultural nerve, cementing itself in the zeitgeist and skyrocketing Kurt to Hollywood's A-list. Kurt's creative output is impressive. Beyond Sons, Kurt penned Southpaw, a gritty feature-length boxing drama originally written for Eminem that ultimately starred Jake Gyllenhaal. He created The Bastard Executioner, a historical drama that ran for one season of FX, and a comic book mini-series called Lucas Stand. Mayans MC, Kurt's third television drama for FX, is set to debut soon. And this list doesn't even include Kurt's many feature projects currently in development. A self-described misanthrope, let's just say Kurt has a penchant for unapologetically speaking his mind — a disposition at odds with Hollywood etiquette that has resulted in more than a few skirmishes. But the Kurt I know — the Kurt I have been friends with for well over a decade – is a man quite apart from the reputation that often precedes him. He's a family man. A husband and father of three children. A great friend. An example of selfless service. And an extraordinary artist. It may sound like a Cinderella story. But success for Kurt didn't come easy. And it didn't come early. Overweight throughout his youth, he once tipped the scale at 400 pounds. Then came the drugs and alcohol — a battle he very nearly lost. It's a helluva ride. Today, we get into all of it. For the visually inclined, you can watch the conversation on YouTube at: http://bit.ly/richandkurt. If you are enjoying the video versions of the show, do me a favor and subscribe! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  Write about things that move you. Whether being moved means being enraged, means being in love, whatever that is, you have to write about something and from a place of, "I need to tell this story," rather than, "I'm gonna write this to get this." You know, people are so worried about doing something that's going to sell, or something that people want to hear, rather than generating something that means something.

• 1:36Rich Roll?

  That's Kurt Sutter, and this, well, this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:51Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:54Rich Roll?

  So I have this confession I want to make. I think it's fair to say that I can be a little bit of a people pleaser. And I used to think of this as a positive quality, setting aside my needs, my perspective to make somebody else comfortable. Well, doesn't that seem like a gracious thing to do? I always thought so. And it took years of sobriety before I was even fully aware of this default setting, this thing that's kind of plugged into my DNA, and even more years before I realized, you know what, this people pleasing thing, it's really more of a character defect than a positive attribute. And then even more years had to transpire before I

• 2:35Rich Roll?

  began the process of trying to deconstruct this character defect and begin the process of trying to overcome it. And I got to tell you, it's something that I still really struggle with on a pretty regular basis, because you see, at its core, people pleasing is really, it's a mark of insecurity. It's this sense that your perspective, your needs, they're not that important. Always sublimating yourself or others is sort of this demonstration of a lack of self-respect, or an inability to set healthy boundaries. But what's really pernicious about all of this is this idea that if you are just who you are, that somehow

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  that is not enough. This idea that you need to be who you think that person wants you to be is basically tantamount to believing that you just being you isn't worthy. And this idea that you're always ensuring that people like you, or that's your priority, and altering your demeanor to meet that end, because to be yourself would be to put yourself at risk of being rejected, because you can't possibly be accepted for who you really are, that is not healthy people. Do you feel me? Do you hear me? Well, let me tell you, this is not Kurt Sutter's problem. My name is Rich Roll, and today I converse with a man,

• 4:01Rich Roll?

  an artist, a friend I respect tremendously, a guy who is utterly unafraid to basically say exactly what's on his mind, to be exactly who he is, and to be totally unwavering, uncompromising, and committed to his truth, his art, and his creative vision.

• 4:22Rich Roll?

  Kurt is best known as the creator, head writer, and showrunner of a tiny little TV show you might have heard of called Sons of Anarchy, the critically acclaimed outlaw motorcycle club psychodrama that became the biggest hit show in the FX network's history and has this crazy rabid, basically fanatical, fanbase. I really like this one line from Kurt's bio, which only Kurt could have written, so I'm just gonna read it to you. "Raised in the shadow of Rahway Prison, Sutter spent most of his New Jersey childhood indoors, away from people, three feet from a TV screen. That's where he learned the essentials of storytelling and the comic significance of anvils."

• 5:01Rich Roll?

  That is so good. It's so good, and it is so vintage Sutter. If you knew Kurt, you would know that only he could write that. Anyway, Kurt is an actor, as well as a writer and director. If you did watch Sons, you might have nightmares about his harrowing turn, his portrayal as Otto on the show. That was quite a remarkable performance. And he started his career in New York, performing in off-off Broadway theaters and lofts, and, in his words, "holding cells," more vintage Sutter, which ultimately led to some directing, some teaching. He went to grad school at Northern Illinois, and then found himself in Los Angeles in 2001. He ends up booking this staff writer gig on The Shield, and that's where he really

• 5:43Rich Roll?

  cut his teeth and found his voice working with that show's creator, a guy called Sean Ryan. And over the course of the next seven years, Kurt would rise up the writing ranks on that show, and he would finish up the last two seasons as executive producer. And then he rolls right into Sons of Anarchy, which, again, he created and ran for seven seasons. Along the way, he wrote a screenplay for Eminem called Southpaw. It's this boxing flick that ultimately ended up starring Jake Gyllenhaal. We tell some funny stories about that, and was directed by Antoine Fuqua. He then created this other show, The Bastard Executioner, that ran for a season, and he's got a brand new show that's soon to launch called Mayans MC. I got plenty more I want to say about Kurt, but this seems like a

• 6:26Rich Roll?

  good place to pause and talk about underwear, because, you know, it just seems totally natural, right?

• 6:40Rich Roll?

  Okay, Kurt Sutter. What can I say? I can say this, here's the thing about Kurt. I think it's fair to say, and I think Kurt would agree, that Kurt has a, he has a reputation. He has a reputation as a bit of a rabble-rouser, a firestarter. Like I said, somebody who is utterly unafraid to voice his opinion, which is highly unusual in Hollywood and which I think it's also fair to say has gotten him into a little trouble from time to time and given him this sort of bad boy image. But the Kurt that I know, the Kurt that I've been friends with for well over a decade is a man quite apart from anything you might have read or may have surmised from the press. He is a good man. He is a good friend. He's a family man.

• 7:25Rich Roll?

  He's a husband. He's a father. He's also a guy who once weighed 400 pounds, a guy who has had his ass kicked by drugs and alcohol and food. A guy not unfamiliar with battling demons, who has pretty courageously overcome his past and now helps a lot of people. He's a guy who's come out the other side with really firm grasp on who he is as a man and as an artist. He's a guy I respect tremendously and somebody with a powerful life experience that I think we can all learn from. This is his story.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  What up-fronts are this week? I'm way behind, I'm sorry.

• 8:07Rich Roll?

  Are you?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  I was all ready to go and then I was like, and I looked at my, I actually looked at my calendar and I went.

• 8:14Rich Roll?

  It's not gonna happen.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  It'll be, it'll be bad if it happens, so.

• 8:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but how, it's gotta be weird to not be at up-fronts though. If you're the, you're the creator and the showrunner.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, sort of.

• 8:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:27Rich Roll?

  They're gonna give you a pass on that one?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, uh, they, I don't think they expected me to go, you know? Cause it's, uh, you know, it's more about other shows that are premiering right now.

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Uh, but you know, they invite everybody and, but my cast is gonna, or my main cast is gonna go. So.

• 8:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  And Elgin, the guy I'm doing the project with is gonna go.

• 8:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  And he's not been, so it's all, you know?

• 8:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's new for him, right? This is his, is this, he's written other stuff, but this is his first like big TV show?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, he's a super talented guy. Uh, he just had, uh, are we doing anything?

• 9:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're all in. We're all in. Just roll right into it.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Uh, he's doing, uh, Elgin James. He's, uh, he had a movie come out this year and I'm gonna forget the name of it. Uh, Low Riders, maybe?

• 9:15Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  But, um, which he doesn't like to talk about because, uh,

• 9:21Speaker 01

  not unlike what happened with me and, uh, Southpaw, they, uh, you know? You know, a bunch of.

• 9:28Rich Roll?

  There were, changes were made.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, changes were made much to his dismay, so.

• 9:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Um, but, uh, no, he's a super, he's a really talented cat. It's like one of those things where, uh, you know, that experience where you're, in a good way, you're in a room with somebody when I first met with him. And I, you have that realization of like, oh, this guy's way smarter than me. You know what I mean? Like just, you know, just operating on that different level and, and obviously very much, uh, a different life experience, you know?

• 10:01Rich Roll?

  I mean, he's kind of from the culture, isn't he?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was, um, he was a guy who, uh, came up and, you know, uh, uh, straight edge, right? And, uh, you know?

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Some people called them gang bangers and he had a different perceptive perception of what they were doing and you know, he

• 10:27Rich Roll?

  It's like the hardcore scene, right?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like in DC and, and you know, he, he was a punk rocker, you know, so they, he traveled all over the world and kind of, they would leave little nuggets behind and as a result, their organization grew and became somewhat worldwide and you know, then after nine 11, all those organizations got classified as terrorists.

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  And it just went in a completely different direction and you know, he ended up doing some time and you know, for what he believed in and but really just a solid guy and loyal and super smart and like rigidly, like you know, those dudes that have that kind of focus.

• 11:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Where you just go, wow.

• 11:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can just hone in on it. Yeah, I know he's, he's friends with my boy, John Joseph, who's from that, from that world as well.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, he knows, he knows everybody.

• 11:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Like I'll, you know, I'll walk into crossroads, you know?

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, that's like the Mecca for all that hardcore, like, you know, Toby Morse?

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:46Rich Roll?

  He's part of that kind of world as well.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  And I know Travis really well and I usually go and meet Travis there and every time I go, Elgin's there with somebody else. You know what I mean? Like some other player, you know?

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  Well, it's weird because it's such a fancy, you know, fancy vegan restaurant and like all these super intense, like hardcore, straight edge punk rock guys. Like, that's like their clubhouse.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  It is, it is. It's, it's really, and, and I know you had Travis on and I love that dude and

• 12:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's amazing.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  He's an amazing guy and I just, I like, you know, I try to have lunch with him at least once or twice a year just to, you know, get a little bit of what he's got. You know what I mean? And it's so funny, the last time I had lunch with him.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  His dad, he brought his dad along and I love that. It was just sort of like, my dad's in town. And he, and his dad was at the table and you know, it's at first you're like, oh, okay. What, what's the, like, how do I, and then like, he's just, he's just so real. And like so open that within 10 minutes, like, you know, his dad just became part of that dynamic and didn't say a whole lot, but it was sort of like, wow, that's, like, I don't know if I would have the capacity to trust my own, you know, social interaction skill to drop somebody into that situation who did, you know what I mean?

• 13:13Speaker 01

  And then just incorporate them into the whole conversation.

• 13:17Rich Roll?

  Right. Without it being like a lot of legwork beforehand.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, you know, and then you, you embrace it. And then by the time you're done, you're like, he just took a, you know, he made it a completely different experience without intending to.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  You mean like, like, what do you mean by that? Just by, by like get providing the space for his dad to just be there comfortably?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  It was just there and it was, yeah. And, and, and his dad, you know, really sweet guy and didn't chime in much and, and you know, we, Travis would go out of his way to include him when, you know, when it made sense. But it was just, you know, it was just like, oh, we're just, it was like, oh, I'm just sitting here with a member of your family and you and you, and us engaging and him being part of it. So that, you know, I realized that it, you know, I had to make the adjustment in terms of like, not thinking that I had to then change how I interact with him because the dad, you know what I mean?

• 14:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  So it made it a different experience for me. So that when I was done, I was like, oh, that was. That was really, you know, that was really cool. That was, that would be a situation that normally might make me uncomfortable. Like, oh, how do I include this guy? And because, you know, Travis is just so bloody there and real. And his dad is kind of the same way, that it was like, you have no choice but to kind of let it become what it's supposed to become, you know, so that, you know, by the end, it was like, well, that was awesome, you know? There was no like, oh, you know, I guess what I go to is trying to do that with my old man. Like when he was living, just would be a different.

• 15:08Rich Roll?

  It wouldn't have worked out that way.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  It would be a different circle.

• 15:11Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it speaks to, you know, like, look, Travis is a, you know, he's a sensitive artist, but he's very, he knows who he is and he's totally comfortable with that. He doesn't, he's not, he's not going to try to make other people, you know, feel like go out of his way to be somebody else to make other people comfortable.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:30Rich Roll?

  But to be able to embody that in a tricky social context is another thing, right?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And just, you know, I guess, because it's often, you know, parental inclusion into things can be a loaded dynamic, right? And the fact that he loves his dad and, and this is just part of his day. You know, it was just sort of that energy and you're like, oh, okay. That's, that was just that, you know, his dad was here and his dad is going to be part of his day. Whatever Travis is doing today, dad will be part of it. And I was part of that thing. You know what I mean? And I just, you know, I just, I was like, nah, I couldn't do that with my old man.

• 16:13Rich Roll?

  No, it wasn't gonna happen. Well, I want to hear more about that, but before we do that, I, I think like, it's interesting you bring up Travis because you guys are. I mean, you're very, you're very different people, but I, but there's similarities that I see in you guys in that you have this kind of public persona that's all about like, it's sort of like a tough guy, you know? You know, I got things figured out and, you know, don't cross me, you know, arms crossed kind of thing. That Travis has, but then you talk to him and he's like the sweetest guy and he wears his emotions on his sleeve and he, like you said, he's totally present. And, and with you, like, because I've known you as long as I have, you know, and I know you outside the context of Hollywood.

• 16:57Rich Roll?

  Uh, I see like your public persona and I see kind of what you put out, you know, on Twitter and the like, and that's changed, that's evolved, certainly. Like, and I want to explore that with you, but there's such a, to me, I'm like, these look like two different people. Like, cause the Kurt I know is like this really sweet, kind, giving, present, family guy, dad, you know, husband. Uh, you know, always, always there, you know, to be of support or with a hug and, and then I see like the, some of the, you know, some of the spats that you get into that end up, you know, turning into these things and, and stuff that gets written. I was like, I just, he's like, wait, who's that guy? You know?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, I would say that unfortunately.

• 17:43Rich Roll?

  We don't have to talk about this if you don't want to.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I would say that unfortunately they both are me.

• 17:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Meaning, you know, I.

• 17:50Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  You know, but I will say that I, you know.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  You know, I, I, I used to lead perhaps, uh, way to say it is I used to lead with that, right? I used to lead with, um, you know, my, uh, very accessible anger, right? And, uh, because it worked for me, right? It sort of was, um, creatively, it's sort of what I was known for and, uh,

• 18:24Speaker 01

  and.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  And then after a while, and yes, it definitely got me in trouble on more than one occasion, but also

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  It's exciting.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  It's exciting and it left, you know, and, and for better or for worse, that's, you know, people remembered it, right? But then I think what ended up happening is I just, it just got boring. You know, and because of what ends up happening is you think, oh, I have to then, when you get to the place where you feel like you need to sustain it.

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Or drum it up, that's when you realize now it's bullshit.

• 18:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I think I just reached that point where I, I wasn't, you know, perhaps that angry anymore, or I didn't have to push back as much because I had, you know, a track record of success.

• 19:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  So I wasn't constantly, you know, in warrior mode. And then, so, and, you know, and then I realized, well, I can't, that's, to sort of lead with that then becomes bullshit.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  Well, it becomes a character then.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 19:34Rich Roll?

  And my, my perspective on it is that

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's your perspective?

• 19:37Rich Roll?

  Well, I know.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  It's probably much better than mine.

• 19:41Rich Roll?

  You know, look, at times it was salacious and like I said, it was exciting, but it was always rooted in truth. Like you were, you were in a certain respect, like it was, it was speaking truth to power. Like it was always like coming, there was always like some aspect of what you were saying was something that needed to be said and something that, that a lot of other people also observed, but for a variety of reasons, just were never going to say that thing, you know?

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 20:06Rich Roll?

  Like you would, you would, you had the balls, you had the courage, you had the, you know, maybe short sightedness, you know, at certain times to go, hey, wait a minute, like this is bullshit. Like we gotta call this out. So it, I always felt like it came from a genuine place. Um, but it, it was, you know, but there's a, there's a like stirring the pot thing. And I think, you know, to contextualize it, like that was probably early mid Sons of Anarchy where you're trying to make your stamp on the world and, and, you know, trying to make sure that people were kind of seeing this project that you were birthing in the way that you wanted it to be seen, right?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's true. I, I mean, it was never

• 20:50Speaker 01

  It was never disingenuous, right? It was never like bullshit. You know, there were times where I definitely, you know, intentionally, you know.

• 21:04Rich Roll?

  Provocateur.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and, you know, and poked a few eyeballs, right? But it was never, it was always rooted in something that I felt strongly about. And I think what happened is that I felt comfortable enough, or perhaps I was careless enough to, you know, rattle that cage and say things that perhaps other people may have felt but wouldn't necessarily either have the balls or perhaps, you know, were too smart to say. So that was, you know, that was definitely part of it early on.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  And it was always, you know, you know, anger was always a survival tool for me, right? So it was about channeling, you know, channeling that piece of me into, you know, into something that perhaps could serve me better than throwing a fist at somebody, right? So, and, you know, definitely, you know, definitely got me into trouble. Some, you know, early on.

• 22:24Rich Roll?

  But it created a lot of notoriety, too.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I can't deny that.

• 22:27Rich Roll?

  A lot of attention on you. I mean, it's like, you know, what's, you know, like, you would tweet something and there'd be a whole, like Nikki Fink would write like a whole article about it, it'd be some deadline piece about what you said.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  And I think when I got to the place where I felt like that became disingenuous, right? Where it was more about, you know, drumming up controversy than really perhaps whether...

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Proper or improper speaking out about something I really believed in, you know, not that I wasn't aware of the impact it would have. But I think what happened is I got to a place where I was just sort of like, do I really believe that? Or is that me just trying to, you know, is that me reading my own press clippings and thinking I had something to sustain?

• 23:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  And that's when it's sort of like, and you know, like anything else, you, you, I don't know if, you know, mature may be too strong of a word, but you realize that you don't have to work so hard at it anymore. You know, and I think that's what happened to me is that people understood who I was. People, there was, you know, respect for what I did. And I didn't have to swing so hard.

• 23:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  To, to do what I wanted to do, you know?

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And, and not that I don't occasionally take a punch now or swing at something, because I do. But I, I think, you know, over time, it just, I had to take a look at, well, what is, you know, what is me? When am I, when am I trying to just be controversial for the sake of being controversial? And when am I using my notoriety to at the very least, express something that, you know, upsets me? Or I think is, is dubious or whatever?

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I've noticed that you're not afraid to speak up when something moves you. I mean, you, you wrote a piece about Harvey Weinstein. You wrote a piece about like the Google anti piracy thing. Like there are moments that you've chosen where you're like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak my piece on this. You know, you did a thing about on the, on the eve of the Trump election or on the, in the wake of that. But like I checked your, I mean, you used to write a lot on your blog. And like, I think the last entry on your blog was like 2013 or something like that. Like you just cut that off.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  You know, what happened is, is really it's the power of Twitter and, and just became a much more.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Powerful tool, you know, then really, you know, because for a while the blog was was my only means of kind of putting it out there. Do you know what I mean? And then I whether, you know, and I still would write pieces, but most of the pieces I wrote after that were for specific things, not so much for my own blog. Do you know what I mean? But, um, uh, yeah, it was just, I think it was, you know, just the shift in, in how to best engage an audience. And then it really became about, you know, uh, you know, uh, Twitter and then ultimately Instagram, you know?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  And then I just, and I also got tired.

• 25:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think like, I'm, I'm trying to figure out whether, you know, I hesitate to use the word like the mellowing, you know, because I'm not sure that's accurate, but on some level, either you have worked through some of these anger issues and you have a healthier relationship with your emotional landscape, or you just feel like you're understood and heard. And so you don't feel that you can like sublimate those impulses that you still have.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  I think it's a little bit of both. I'd like to, I hope there's been some growth over the last 10 years.

• 26:26Rich Roll?

  I hope so too. No, I think there has been.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  You know, you know, I think kids will do that to you. And, uh, and look, you know, I think you, you, uh, success creates a, a certain amount of, um, personal, uh, security, you know what I mean? Uh, so that you don't, you know, the fear impulse that drives me, I think subsided as, you know, the work spoke for itself, right? So I didn't feel like I had, you know, failure chomping at, you know, you know, at my back.

• 27:10Rich Roll?

  You're on the third show that you've created. You have this amazing relationship with FX and you know, you know, they have your back, even though you get in a scruff with them. Like, you know, I would hope that you could like breathe a little bit.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, yeah. So there's definitely feeling like, um, You know, I have the network and by network, not necessarily FX, but the network of people around me that know who I am and can support that and protect me.

• 27:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  So it's, you know, it's, it's definitely, you know, that has, you know, changed my approach. Or, and, and, you know, it's also, you know, it's a different, it's a different landscape now too, man. You know, it's a much more, you know, what you say and what you do, you know, the, the public perception is so mercurial right now and, and, you know, I, you know, I would be foolish if I didn't check myself.

• 28:17Rich Roll?

  You got a lot to lose.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and, or just, you know, know that, you know, I've been lucky in the past, right? If I use my, you know, early on, when I was, you know, sending out all those crazy tweets about the Emmys, right? That, you know, I was alone in my office cracking myself up and then they were all picked up and I got a call from my wife saying, what's am, are you going insane? What's happening? People are freaking out. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I just realized, oh my God, they're like, they're all being picked up and people, people think I'm sitting there with a gun in my mouth. You know?

• 28:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And I was like, that was when I realized, oh.

• 28:58Rich Roll?

  Tone can be misconstrued.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So.

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  That was a little bit of a tirade, though.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was definitely a tirade, but I was, I was cracking myself up, but apparently no one else. So, you know, I have, you know, I definitely, you know, have that historical awareness, but, you know, it's, but yeah, it's, it's definitely, it's a different, it's a different landscape, you know?

• 29:32Rich Roll?

  It's a different landscape in a lot of ways. I mean, yeah, one, one false move and you're done. You know, it's like, you know, I think like, there's a climate of like, you kind of have to, you know, have to make sure that you're, you know, really paying attention to how you behave in a public forum. And with somebody with your profile, like, you know, I would imagine that has to play on your conscience a little bit in terms of how you navigate the treacherous waters of social media. And, and I think, you know, it's also, I think the landscape of television has changed tremendously since, you know, the shield and even, and even, you know, Sons of Anarchy. It's like, you know, I know this, this term gets thrown around pretty casually, but it really is this amazing

• 30:12Rich Roll?

  golden age. Like, there's this incredible content out there. And, you know, the quality of programming in television is, is just, it's unprecedented. And as a storyteller, I would imagine that, you know, it's, it's exciting for you, because it seems like, from somebody who's not in that world, that there's a lot of freedom to explore storytelling in a longer format that can breathe in this, you know, sort of binge culture that we're now in.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  No, it's, it's, it's really true. I think, you know, it's interesting. It's, I, you know, I, I, I've definitely rattled cages, even at FX along the way. And

• 30:56Rich Roll?

  But Landgraf always kind of had your

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:59Rich Roll?

  He's kind of been your

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:00Rich Roll?

  from the beginning. But you, you guys get into it.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, you can only call a guy a cunt so many times before he, he has to sit you down and say, you know, look.

• 31:09Rich Roll?

  I think he said, like, he said, like, you know, he pulls out the Jerry Maguire line, like, let me help you. Like, help me help you, Kurt. Come on.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  So there's definitely been, you know, some of that along the way. But I, I do, I, I, I love John. I consider him a friend. And, but yeah, it's

• 31:31Speaker 01

  You know, the landscape now is, you know, it's really, uh, it's really changed, you know, and, uh, and now, you know, like I just, um, with the onset of, of, of Mayans and, and I just, you know, it made sense to re-up my deal at, uh, at 20th and, uh, and then my first look is at FX and.

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  So you had like a multi-year overall deal.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  It's a three-year deal, yeah. And, you know, it's the first time I had to, you know, in, you know, with, you know, the potential of the Disney ownership looming, it's the first time I had a sit-down before anything was signed, where, you know, I was given a talking to. And not so much, you know, uh, I mean, clearly, uh, you know, I've mellowed to a certain extent and, and, but they know me well enough.

• 32:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  So.

• 32:29Rich Roll?

  Disney's a whole other deal.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was, and it wasn't so much about don't be yourself as much as don't be stupid, you know? And, and at that point, I, I, I got it. And, uh, and, and I have tremendous respect for, uh, Dana Walden, who I also consider a friend, and, uh, and John Langrath. And it was, you know, it was that conversation. But even, you know, even though it was a, a supportive and we love you kind of a meeting, the fact that the meeting still took place suggests.

• 33:01Rich Roll?

  So people got together and said, we need to, we need to, we should probably get in touch with Kurt and sit down with him.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Well, look, what, what they're doing, quite honestly, and, and, you know, and, and, and I don't blame them, right? Is they're, you know, they're doing the due diligence of saying, you know, we did our part in terms of letting this artist know, you know.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  What the perhaps new rules of engagement are, right? And so that, you know, to a certain extent, they're protected if I, you know, go off the rails. But but it was also, it's interesting. It's like, like I said, and it was, it was a very, you know, it was a very sort of friendly and supportive conversation, right? But the fact that we had to have that conversation really suggests a shift in the paradigm. You know what I mean? And and look, I, you know, everything kind of happens for, I believe, everything sort of happens for a reason.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  And and that, you know, all the stuff that's happening now in Hollywood and and other industries, you know, had to happen, has to happen. And and from it, what will shake loose, I think, is is perhaps a more, a safer and healthier, you know, landscape. But this is, you know, this is the battle. You know, this is the, this is where people, you know, get bloody and make mistakes. And and this is the the time when, you know, things get, you know, everything's

• 34:46Rich Roll?

  We're in that in-between phase.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're shaking it all up to see what it what it's supposed to look like.

• 34:51Rich Roll?

  There's, you know, there's going to have to be a lot of casualties along the way before we see our way clear of the old paradigm and into the new paradigm. I mean, you, I mean, you worked with Weinstein on Southpaw, right? Like, what was your experience with him?

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Um, you know, I never had a face to face with with Harvey. There was several email exchanges and they were all very, you know, friendly, you know, it was really about, excuse me, it was really about when we were getting, beginning to promote the movie and and asking me to

• 35:29Speaker 01

  You know, uh, do interviews and, and, uh, and things like that. And, uh, um, you know, basically, um, it was, you know, how much can I get you to do for free? Kind of a thing. And, and I, you know, and I, and I got that. And I did as, as much as I, I could do. I couldn't travel and to, to promote, but I, you know, I did, um, I did a couple of WGA things and, uh, but it was, it was, you know, he was very, um, supportive of the movie. And, uh, and look, Antoine's a friend of mine and, uh, we, you know, there was a lot of negoti-

• 36:09Speaker 01

  you know, there were rewrites on that movie that, that on Southpaw that, you know, didn't work. And so it was, you know, it was this sort of creative covert op that would happen. I would get home from Suns and I would sit down with him at like from 10 till two in the morning, going through pages, writing stuff for the next day. And, and that basically I think just became an outline. Um, because my whole argument for arbitration, when it came down to who got credit, because there was like, they brought in two or three other writers. My whole arbit- my whole argument for arbitration was they didn't follow any script. So by default, did you go back to me? And, and that worked. And it's the truth. So you got sole credit.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I got sole credit. And it's, and it's true. Like there was whatever, you know, it was, it was the heart of basically the original draft, which is what Antoine loved and wanted to make. Um, but as far as actual words on the page, it would be like, I'd be, hmm, where's, where's, where's that? Which movie is this? But, you know, uh, so that, and, and it was like one of my ma- and, uh, You know, my agents and my lawyer, you know, they've not had great experience with arbitration and for clients. And they're like, look, don't, you know, don't expect, you know. And it ended up turning around being one of the quickest arbitrations because my argument

• 37:37Speaker 01

  was so simple. And really, there was no documentation of any draft that became the when TV, it's called an asbrod in terms of what was actually said, right? So they were like, oh, you got a point.

• 37:52Rich Roll?

  Right. You couldn't track it back to any, anyone else.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Right. So because the, the movie was mine and the original script and concept was mine, it, it just sort of by default went back to sole credit.

• 38:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  And, uh, um, which, you know, uh, you know, was as far as they were concerned was the first time anyone ever used that tactic.

• 38:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I'd be interested to know whether anybody's used it since, since it was so effective. But the, the, you know, the story behind that movie is pretty interesting. I mean, originally, this was an idea that you had that you worked with Marshall Mathers, Eminem.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:33Rich Roll?

  He was gonna start, he was, this was gonna be his eight mile follow up.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really was. It was, they came to me, uh, early on and, um, uh, and this was before Antoine was around and, uh, uh, you know, Marshall's producing team and, um, and they wanted to do a remake of The Champ. And I was like, don't do a remake of The Champ. And, uh, and then it's when I pitched, let's, let's do like, let's continue telling his story through the analogy of boxing, right? So the continuation of his life, you know, so when proof was killed, it's sort of when, you know, the wife was killed. So it was

• 39:22Speaker 01

  literally taking the paradigm of what happened to him, uh, and then using that as, you know, sort of the, the story, uh, uh, you know, the story paradigm, right? So, uh, and they loved that idea. And then we pitched it around and it ended up, uh, with Stacy Snyder when she was at DreamWorks and they loved the idea. And at that point, Marshall was on board in his team. And, uh, and then we were. Then we sat down and were interviewing or met with directors and you know, and Antoine came in and you know, Antoine, obviously, you know, a lot of success with Training Day and but had kind of lost his way a little bit in terms of, well, that's not fair to

• 40:06Speaker 01

  say, in terms of studio successes, right, was still, you know, looking for that groove. And, and, and I had worked with Antoine previously on a, on a project that I had written for Warner's and that didn't go, but became friends with him. And, and he came in to this pitch, like, living the story, like, he grew up, I think he grew up in Philly and, you know, boxing kind of saved his life. So, you know, it was really, it became this sort of personal story for him. And that really impressed me and Stacy and, and, and, and all of Marshall's

• 40:45Speaker 01

  people. And we, we locked him down and, you know, and then as things happened, Marshall, you know, at that point, I think, was clean and sober. And I think reevaluating whether or not he wanted to get into a circumstance that, you know, Eight Mile kind of fucked him up, you know, I think Curtis Hansen kind of put him through the wringer. And, and I think he, you know, this is just my speculation, but that he didn't know if he wanted to risk new sobriety on that circumstance again. And, and I kind of understood it, right? So it went at the turnaround. And, and then Harvey came around and liked the story and

• 41:30Speaker 01

  liked it for Jake. And about a year and a half later or so, that came back around. And I met with Jake and

• 41:41Speaker 01

  I think I've told this story.

• 41:43Rich Roll?

  I know the story.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  You know the story.

• 41:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, just tell it because it's good.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Because my, my relationship with Jake prior to that was, we had, we were living in the hills in Hollywood Hills and someone moved into a house like across from us. There's a big ravine, right? So I don't know how many hundreds of yards between our houses, but somebody moved in and, and then for two nights in a row, somebody was out there like building, like banging hammers till like, you know, midnight, right? And by the third night, I was like, fuck this guy. So, so I stand out on the, you know, from the, from our, the end of

• 42:29Speaker 01

  our, our property there as high up as I could. And I'm screaming, you know, hey, you think maybe, you know, you can, you can fucking chill the fucking home improvement. It's, it's like, you know, 11 o'clock at night and I'm screaming and all I hear is a pause and okay, right? Right? So then like three or four days later, there's a knock on my door and I open the door and it's Jake.

• 42:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  And he's like, yeah, I just want to retell, we share, I just moved into the house and we share some mutual property that we need to trim trees. And I'm sitting to him, listen, and he's talking. I went, were you the guy? And he's like, yeah, that was me. I'm like, of course it was. So that was, that was, that was Jake's introduction to me.

• 43:14Rich Roll?

  This is the foundation of this relationship when the prospect of him like starring in this movie that you wrote that you really wanted for Eminem comes up.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  But the second part of that, I think is just as like sort of entertaining.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we sit down and, and so, you know,

• 43:32Speaker 01

  After that, we laughed. And, you know, then we were in contact with him because we shared a property line and we had done all this work.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  It's like rich white guy Hollywood problems.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really, it really is. It's like, oh, the trees are too, the trees are overgrowing and.

• 43:49Rich Roll?

  My movie star neighbor, like, you know.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  It was, it was, it was that.

• 43:53Rich Roll?

  Cry me a river.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  And, and he was a lovely guy and, and really, you know, I really, you know, had a good sense of humor about my rage. So, and then, over time, he had actually moved, I think, by the time this project came up. But that was our, you know, that was the basis of our relationship. And when Harvey said that he really liked Jake for this project, like, to me, it was so hard for me to wrap my head around anybody but Marshall doing it because it was written for him, about him. It was, you know, and then it was based on his life, you know, granted, you know, an

• 44:36Speaker 01

  analogy and, but, so I couldn't, like, couldn't wrap my brain around it. And so I was, you know, I was like, it's not, I don't get it, it's not gonna work. And when I met Jake, you know, he was a lovely guy and he had a really, it was interesting because he had his perspective on who the character was. And in that meeting, I found myself creatively, like, tensing up, like, not knowing who he is, you know? And then, and then I don't know what happened. I think it was just like enough time had passed and I perhaps wasn't so, you know, immediately invested in every word, which is probably a good thing considering none

• 45:21Speaker 01

  of my words ended up in it. But I think I was just, I just, something happened and I, and there was a shift and I suddenly went, oh. That's what you think it is, right? And I was able to realize, of course, you know, everyone is entitled to their interpretation of it, right? And, and what I realized is that he was a really smart cat, right? He wasn't like, you know, he was a really smart guy and, and, and I think really understood the character in a way that perhaps I wasn't able to see it, right? He was looking at it from a different way. And I think it's ultimately why, even though a lot changed, I realized, because, you know,

• 46:06Speaker 01

  at that point, I was still, you know, 80% of my year was, was buried in the show.

• 46:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  That I realized that Jake and Antoine knew this character better than I did. Like, they understood.

• 46:21Rich Roll?

  And once Marshall's not involved anymore, you can unshackle yourself from.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:26Rich Roll?

  The, the limitations of it having to be his story.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:29Rich Roll?

  And allowing it to be something else.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  And, and that was hard, you know? Creatively, it was hard. I'm very, you know, look, I'm very proprietary over my stuff and, and because I, you know, I'm not a casual writer, you know what I mean? Like, I spend a lot of time and energy and investment in every word and, and every action that's in a script, right? So, but I realized that I, you know, that these two men, Jake and Antoine at that point, really knew this movie better than I did. And I had to be willing to let that go and, and support it as best as I could. And I did with rewrites and, you know, and most of my rewrites, I think, were about,

• 47:11Speaker 01

  you know, guiding them in the context of what the whole story became, you know? And then I think a lot of it just really became improvisational once they understood that. It was just basically protecting the arc of the piece, because I think that's what Antoine, you know, he's an amazing shooter. But I think what Antoine needs help with sometimes is remembering, you know, how each scene is layered into the overall arc of the piece, right? And that's what I think I was able to provide and, and ultimately let it become what it was supposed to become, you know?

• 47:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I mean, I enjoyed it. You know, I don't know what your perspective is on the finished product, but, but I think, you know, first of all. You gotta have huge balls to even attempt a boxing movie because of the history of boxing movies and all the tropes that are kind of built into that. Like, how do you say something unique and do something compelling in that genre when there's so many outstanding examples? It seems like everything's sort of been explored and done.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:11Rich Roll?

  But I felt like it merged kind of what you expect, like the best of what that genre has to offer, while also inverting it by throwing some, you know, curveballs at you that like you don't see coming. Plus, like Jake was super ripped in that movie. Like, I don't know how he got that fit, but it was insane.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Well, that's interesting. I, you know, I wasn't that involved in the actual production, but I was, I did as much as I could prior to in terms of rewrites and being available. And then as it was being shot, you know, my late night rendezvous with Antoine in terms of revisions and stuff like that, because it was like a covert ops piece, you know?

• 48:50Rich Roll?

  It's like, I don't think people understand like what an all-consuming, full-time job, like being a showrunner is. Like, I can't believe that you had any bandwidth whatsoever to do anything outside of that.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Well, at that point, I was invested. I really, you know, look, it's still my only, you know, feature credit and I really wanted to feel like, like the thought of abandoning it at that point felt wrong. So I felt like I wanted to support Antoine and Jake and contribute what I could. So, yeah, it really became when I came home from, you know, my day job, putting as much energy as I possibly could into that, you know? And look, it wasn't, you know, it was like a, you know, it was a, it was a quick shoot, right? You know, in terms of being however many days, 30 days, maybe 40 days. And, but no, I'm, you know,

• 49:41Speaker 01

  I think Jake did, did a great job. And, and, and look, I think they leaned into, you know, a lot of tropes that I probably would have tried to avoid, but also, you know, I had to trust that, you know, I guess there's a, there is an expectation, being a boxing movie, for those mile markers you have to reach, you know, what fans expect or whatever. But Uh, so you know, I had mixed feelings about it, but ultimately, you know, I felt like Antoine did a great job. I felt like Jake, um, yeah, I remember when I met Jake, he was doing Nightcrawler.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  So he was like that big, you know, he was really, he was lean and, and, and I thought, you know, hmm, middleweight, hmm, I don't, you know?

• 50:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  And, uh, and then the next time I saw him was in New York and maybe six weeks later, and he was a beast already.

• 50:38Rich Roll?

  In six weeks?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  In six weeks.

• 50:40Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  But he's just one of those guy, like he's a natural athlete.

• 50:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  And he's just one of those dudes that, you know, I personally hate, who can like drop and shred and, and, uh, and he was, when I saw him, he was a beast and, uh, um, and you know, is a natural athlete. So, uh, I think he was, you know, uh, had moved along at a rate faster than, uh, I forget, uh, Terry was his name. I forget Terry's last name, who was training him. And, uh, uh, you know, I think even Terry was sort of stunned at his level of

• 51:15Rich Roll?

  Quickly.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  How quickly, you know? And it's just who he is, you know? And, and, you know, I think he created a really interesting character. He was, he was kind of, you know, barbaric, you know? And, uh, in a way that I had never seen him before. So I really admired his performance, you know? And, uh, uh, it was beautiful. I loved the way, uh, Antoine shot it. So, you know, I was able to sort of wa, I remember I watched it. I was in, I was in, uh, London doing Bastard at the time and, uh, ended up, uh, going to Soho House in, uh, in Soho, uh, went and, uh, went to their private screening room and, uh, watched it with, uh, I think

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Katie and just Sarah and Jackson at the time. And, uh, we just, you know, had a private screening and, uh, you know, ultimately, you know, it came out of that feeling like, okay, I'm glad my name's on it, you know? I didn't write much of it, but I'm glad my name's on it.

• 52:12Rich Roll?

  It's such a weird thing, right? Like you're this, I mean, you know, like the average person would look at that and just assume you wrote every word in that movie.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  I know.

• 52:19Rich Roll?

  And that's not how it works. And I, I think it's, it, it speaks to kind of a broader issue that I want to get into you with you, which is Like, how do you navigate being a creative person, being an artist, you know, being somebody who's passionate about the work that they do in a construct in which it's a team sport, really. And, you know, I know you well enough to know that like, you're a guy who likes to lock yourself in a room and like, do your thing and, you know, people, if you can avoid people, you're going to avoid people, you know? And it's so funny that the universe has thrown you, you know, this life in which not only do you have to collaborate with people, like, you have to be like the general and the soldier.

• 53:01Rich Roll?

  Like, you have to be the practitioner and the architect of everything that you do. So I can't imagine very many other jobs where you have to be more enmeshed with people than what you do. So it's like, I, you know, I would imagine there was a learning curve with that, like, and I think it also, you know, kind of ancillary to that is, how do you maintain the vision for, you know, what you're trying to accomplish while also allowing that space to, you know, be in gratitude and in surrender and like empower all these people that are talented in their own right to be expressive?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Now, you know, it's interesting that I, you know, I was never, you know, I'm a late bloomer, right? Like, I didn't figure shit out till, you know, I was in my early 40s, right? I mean, some of it was going back to grad school.

• 53:55Rich Roll?

  You and me both, brother.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  You know, and I went back to grad school in my early 30s and I was going to teach and direct theater. And it was in grad school I started writing and, you know, that sort of then dictated my path. So there was this really, this very long circuitous path that led me to what I'm doing. And I have, you know, obviously a lot of gratitude for that, but, you know. Uh, prior to that, anything I had written, like, the concept of draft never entered my mind, right? Like, I would produce something, and if you didn't, you know, think it was, you know, the most potent and brilliant thing you would have ever written, you'd ever read, then clearly it was a piece of shit. So, you know.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  Just a binary thing.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the fact that I, my career became something that has to embrace the concept of draft is, you know, is definitely, you know, in a bigger picture, you know, the lesson that I had to learn, right? Because I was then, to be successful, I had to be willing to let people share an opinion about what was wrong with something I was doing. And, and take it to heart, try to figure out what was useful, you know, what I could throw away, and what, how to apply what they said to make something better. And clearly, there was a, a learning curve doing that. But that, you know, that perhaps was the biggest

• 55:26Speaker 01

  hurdle, and, and I was able to get through a lot of that in just trying to write features. So that by the time I got to The Shield, you know, then I didn't have a choice, right? Because I would write drafts, and I would get notes from my showrunner and from other writers. And, you know, I may push back for stuff I believed in, but ultimately, I couldn't say, "Fuck you, write it yourself."

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  Well, you were like a junior, junior stu-, the first year junior stu-, yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  A staff writer, yeah.

• 55:55Rich Roll?

  Right, season one of The Shield.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  So I was, you know, you start out at the bottom, and, but it was interesting. I was, and I always tell this story, my, my buddy Scott Rosenbaum was also the other staff writer on that show. And I had never written in TV before. I never pursued TV and I liked TV and my agents were like, you know, you should write some specs and, you know, so I got this gig after, you know, a couple of seasons of trying to pursue TV work.

• 56:28Rich Roll?

  Well, you wrote, you wrote like a, like a crazy spec script, an Ally McBeal spec script in a West Wing.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wrote a crazy Ally McBeal, like, you know, it's so funny you remember that, like an S and M Ally McBeal.

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  It's like, I can't even imagine like your voice in that, in that framework.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  And, and then like a West Wing where, you know, eight year old version, unfortunately somewhat prescient in terms of like what ultimately happened, but.

• 56:57Rich Roll?

  And are you trying to like, like adopt some kind of Sorkin-esque like meter when you write dialogue in that or are you just being yourself?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  I couldn't, you know, what I tried to do in terms of the show was the rhythm, right? Cause it had a fast rhythm. I don't, you know, I think it's impossible to, it's like trying to imitate Mamet, right? It's, it's really difficult to, to try to mirror or ape that rhythm, you know, but I did sort of understand the dynamic of who the characters were and what the relationships were. But that, that West Wing was what got me the job on the Shield. Cause at that point, that's what you did to get a job. You wrote

• 57:44Speaker 01

  a spec of a, of a successful show. And, you know, so, but the interesting thing is I started that job and I had never written on a TV show, nor did I luckily didn't really know the rules, right? Like I got the show and I, there was a contract that was for seven years, right? And, and I just thought like, oh, okay. So, you know, if the show continues, I, you know, I'll keep working. What I didn't know is that, you know, each season, your, your option had to be picked up, right? And a lot of times if you go into a gig, if you have two staff writers, a lot of times, you know, only one of them makes the jump.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  So my buddy Scott Rosenbaum had written on TV shows before and was aware of that dynamic. So I remember showing up and I just remembered, God, this guy is so fucking competitive, man.

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's gonna bury you.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, and I was, I was just sort of taken back by it. And then, of course, I realized, you know, how competitive I was myself, right? So then, but it wasn't about the job. It was about, well, fuck this, you know, it just became about, you know, the idea. And, and it wasn't until, like, really as the season was winding down, that I became aware that my option had to be picked up. And I, and as, as, as a big of a shock that was in terms of, why didn't anybody tell me that? And I realized, well, it's a blessing that nobody told me that. Because had I known that, it may have shifted

• 59:18Speaker 01

  my dynamic into a much more sort of defensive or judging everything I was saying, or looking at all my relationships differently.

• 59:27Rich Roll?

  And the ego.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was able just to sort of be myself and, and let my, you know, my warped sense of storytelling kind of flourish, you know? And, and really found my voice on that, on that show, you know?

• 59:51Rich Roll?

  I want to explore kind of like, you know, your experience on the Shield and how that led to Suns and everything that's happened since. But I think, I think we should, let's step it back. Because I want to, you know, I want to know, I want to understand, like, how this, how this Kurt Sutter guy came to be, right? Like, there's an interesting kind of backstory here that is the engine behind all of this, growing up in New Jersey.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  You want the sad fat kid story? Okay.

• 1:00:21Rich Roll?

  No, not really, but I do like, first of all, like 400 pounds like in high school.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Rich Roll?

  It's super hard for me to see that.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, uh,

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  grew up in, in like suburb Jersey, um, the town, I grew up in a town called Clark. I usually say Raway because I lived like, you know, five blocks from the Raway border.

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  And people knew Raway because of the prison and scared straight. So it was just easier and it sounded more badass.

• 1:00:53Rich Roll?

  IMDb, it says like, you know, grew up in the shadow of the Raway. He's like, it sounds so melodramatic.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  I know, yeah. I was so proud of that. But, uh, you know, I was already marketing myself, you know, uh, my first year on the show. But, um, uh, so, you know, grew up in really sort of, you know, um, middle class, uh, suburbia, um, and, uh, and, you know, was, uh, you know, I, in hindsight, I look at it now and realize it's, uh, you know, it was the youthful manifestation of, uh, of my isms, you know, of my, uh, alcoholism and, and my, uh, my holes, so to speak. But I, uh, you know, from an early age, uh,

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  you know, I was just this uber sensitive dude and, uh, and I didn't, nobody was mixing me cocktails at, uh, you know, at three, four and five. And it became, uh, you know, food really became my, uh, uh, you know, uh, anesthetic. And, uh, uh, you know, and so my weight gain was sort of proportional to, uh, life, right? So the more. Responsibility life demanded of me the bigger I got. To the point where, you know, I was, you know, I say over 400 pounds because the scale didn't go past 400. When I was 19, you know. So, and I lost some weight in high school.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  I dropped like 60 pounds. My mom, God bless her, you know, sent me to like one of the diet clubs and I dropped some weight, but then quickly put that back on and another 50. And, you know, and then I, I went to college, went to Rutgers. And, you know, my first year, all I did was party and, you know, put on another 50 pounds of beer weight, right? And of course, didn't go to class. So, ended up dropping out of Rutgers and going to junior college. But, I don't know, there was something that happened. I think I just, and I, you know, I tell this as a,

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  in a humorous way, because it's funny, but it's really, ultimately, I think it's

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  probably the truth, which was, you know, I realized that 400 pounds, I wasn't going to get laid, right? And

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  and not because women, you know, didn't like me. It's because, you know, they could die, so.

• 1:03:39Rich Roll?

  But like to get up to that size, I mean, my, you know, the impression that I got from kind of like, you know, looking into the background of your story is, you know, baby boomer parents, you know, dad kind of is that emotionally detached dude. You know, we all know that guy.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  You know, mom, you know, mom begins to deal with that by drinking a little bit of herself. And so then that becomes an emotional removal for you.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:04:08Rich Roll?

  And it's like, all right, well, where are you going to turn now?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  Right? And so it's all right, it's like food. And then it's no surprise that it's booze.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:15Rich Roll?

  You're ballooning up. And that, when does like, I mean, the first thing that kind of comes in, in terms of like your salvation is like this interest in acting, right? Like, writing doesn't come until much later.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, and like I said, I, I, I think when I, you know, there was a certain amount of denial one has when they're younger, right? And then I think I just hit the wall at nineteen where I realized, you know,

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  is it, you know, this, it didn't, you know,

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  like I always describe, you know, it's like I, I was like the, you know, I was like, I had the, the personality of James Dean in the body of Paul Prudhomme, right? Like, it just didn't fucking work, right? You know?

• 1:05:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  And

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  So like a super handsome dude, like stuck in this other guy's body?

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  So I just, um, you know, and then, you know, uh, I, you know, I'm really on my own, you know, sort of flipped the switch and, and of course, you know, there's a healthy component to it, but there's also an unhealthy component to it in terms of, you know, that's when I really started relying on alcohol to take the edge off instead of food, you know, and, and, you know, I, I look at my alcoholism and my drug addiction and my food addiction as being so enmeshed in my twenties, it's hard to even pull them apart, right? Because when I wasn't doing one, I was doing the other, right?

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  Right, well, it's all the same thing. You have this, you have this like, you know, discontentedness, this sense of like not wanting to feel the way that you feel and you're gonna reach for whatever's in front of you.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is.

• 1:06:02Rich Roll?

  Indiscriminately, yeah.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Um, and, uh, you know, so I, you know, uh, I dropped, you know, and look, I was at an age where, and, you know, the interesting thing is, and, uh, as heavy as I was, I was always like an athletic kid. Like, I played baseball, I loved basketball, you know, so I was the kid playing full court basketball at four hundred pounds, you know? Uh, you know, it's amazing, I have like, you know, knees at this point, but, uh, so, like, the exercise component was, was easy for me. So when I, you know, made the decision to drop weight, I, you know, exercise became a big tool and then ultimately, you know,

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  you, you know, uh, you abuse that too, right? And, uh, but, uh, you know, so I, I got down to, uh, you know, I dropped like,

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Hundred and eighty pounds, hundred and ninety or hundred and ninety pounds and in, you know, like nine months.

• 1:07:09Rich Roll?

  Wow. So just by just being like a beast on the stairmaster or whatever in the treadmill? And like, you know, I mean, is there like

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Restrictive, restrictive, you know, like

• 1:07:18Rich Roll?

  Cocaine involved in that or like?

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  There was, you know, cocaine ultimately became my maintenance tool. You know what I mean? But initially it was really, you know, it became this like, how little can I eat? And still sort of do what I need to do, right? And

• 1:07:35Rich Roll?

  Still like a control thing.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:07:38Rich Roll?

  You know, ism in and of itself.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  It's, it was, you know, it was a form of, you know, anorexia and then ultimately exercising became the bulimic part of that. Right? So, you know, look, I, it, it, it happened the way it happened and it had to, to a certain extent. And, and it wasn't necessarily the healthiest process, but you know, I got away with it because I was young. Right? So, um, and I, you know, but I always describe it as, you know, halving my body size and doubling my insanity. Because I was now in the body of a normal looking dude, but I still had this head that was, you know,

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  that's whole skill set was built on, you know, you know, being 400 pounds and just disconnected and and living, you know, in, in a great deal of fantasy, right? So, uh, uh, you know, that really became the, the struggle in my twenties, you know? Like maintaining the weight, I would sort of, you know, I sort of maintained anywhere between like, you know, 180 and 220. I was always sort of somewhere in that, you know, but it was all, you know, it all became about binge and purge and, you know, all the things that, uh,

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  all the different ways the ism manifests, you know what I mean? And, and still very much into not, you know, uh, I wasn't a big drug guy. Uh, a lot, you know, cocaine was so prevalent in the eighties in New York where I was working. It was just part of the party circuit, you know? But it was, it was mostly, um, uh, alcohol and, uh, uh, you know, and that became, you know, uh,

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  You know, my, my coping mechanism for, you know, until, you know, like all of us, it stops working.

• 1:09:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it stops working, but, but it seems that you didn't have, it's not like you had some crazy flame out. Like it just sort of ran its course and you're like, I can't do this anymore. What was the bottom?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I think what happened was I, look, like I had, you know, my mom was alcoholic and I sort of had the blueprint. You know, I saw what my genetic predisposition was and, and I'm a guy who, you know,

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  I kind of have to ride it, ride it out till it's completely beat up and done and drained. You know, even to this day, like working with defects of character, right? I gotta, you know, I gotta try it every which way to make sure it's really is a defect before, before I'm willing to go, okay, it doesn't work, right? So it was that kind of thing and I, and I think I, I remember,

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  you know, I, I talked to, I think it was my friend Nicole, who ultimately became my agent, you know, talking to her about it and we both had our stuff and, and, you know,

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  and I would, I would like sort of whine in, in her ear and, and she, you know, pointed out that most people who aren't alcoholic, you know, don't struggle with the, the complexities and the, the angst of whether or not they're alcoholic.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  And I just was like, and like, that was so obvious and yet such a brand new concept to me. I was like, oh, and then I just became willing and I, and at that point I had moved back to New York. I was studying with my mentor, Catherine Gately, and to, to teach in direct theater. And, and I was just, you know, I was willing to let it go and, and then of course, you know, you realize your bottom is not quite as high as you think it is, right? And, and that.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  You know, that'll be 25 years ago.

• 1:11:53Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's amazing. So you just, you literally

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  March, March something.

• 1:11:56Rich Roll?

  You came in and that was, that was it?

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I had tried to get sober on my own, you know, like I was dry for nine months, you know, and, and and hadn't drank and, you know, and then what happens is you pick up again and it's not a slow build again. You sort of pick up again and it's within weeks, you're right back where you were, usually worse, right?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  So, you know, it was so, I was so aware of what I was doing and and I just, you know, I became, you know, exhausted by my own process of trying to figure out, you know, how to get well, that I was just like, all right, I'll try it this way.

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  Intellectualizing it or looking for every other way of being able to continue to do what you do, but not feel the way that you feel.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:12:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, that's amazing. I mean, that's, it's not, that's not the usual story. You know, with most people, it's, it's less of a, you know, of a, of a clean break like that, or, you know, a linear path. But now, looking at it like,

• 1:13:12Rich Roll?

  knowing that there's the food aspect of it, and then there's the drugs and alcohol part of it, like, how do you manage like sort of recovery across those two different things? Because the solution is the same, and yet it's also a little bit more complicated than that.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  You know, the drug, the drugs and alcohol of it,

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  you know, is, you know, is, is a clean break, right? So, not that it was easy, you know, but

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  But you know, they in the the food program, you know, over here is anonymous, they talk about, you know, that if if the disease is is the tiger, you know, when you're sober, you can put the tiger in the cage, but with food, you have to take that tiger out and walk it three times a day, right? So, you know, that has always been my, you know, that to this day is the thing that, you know, I still struggle with, right? Is, you know, is the main, you know, is maintaining that level of, you know,

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  abstinence and and and, you know,

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  you know, what is, you know, what's the normalcy in that process, you know? You know, because I'm, you know, and I don't, that's not a program I work anymore. And whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. But, you know, it's still, it still can kick my ass on any given day, right? But, you know, it's, you know, the the other program is the one that sort of, you know, is my my daily tool for living, you know what I mean?

• 1:15:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  But, you know, here's, I guess the best way to describe it is like, I'm so clear with drugs and alcohol, there's no, you know, there's no other route but sobriety, right? I'm always looking for another route in terms of food.

• 1:15:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  But, you know, like, I'm always looking for the shortcut, you know?

• 1:15:29Rich Roll?

  And what does it look like now? I mean, we've talked a little bit about like the plant-based stuff with you.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:15:33Rich Roll?

  I don't know where you're at with it now and how that looks, but.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  I'm, you know, I I'm very, obviously, look, I'm I'm health conscious and and and I.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  You know, I love, you know, working out and, and, uh, and weight training has always been part of my emotional recovery, you know, and I still do that, uh, um, anywhere from three to five times a week, right? So exercise and it's still, you know, really how I, you know, keep that beast at bay. Uh, and, uh, um, right now, in terms of my food plan, it's strictly, I would say pescatarian, you know what I mean? Uh, I do eat, you know, uh, I do eat fish, but, um, uh, but pretty much everything else is, I try to, uh, like I

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  don't do about, since it's been almost a year, giving up, uh, uh, dairy and wheat and, you know.

• 1:16:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Uh, I eat, you know, ridicul- ridiculous amounts of Ezekiel, you know?

• 1:16:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Uh, and, uh, and I just, you know, I feel, uh, better, you know, when I'm, when I'm in that groove.

• 1:16:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Um, uh, and I'm a, you know, I'm a vitamin whore, you know, I, you know, I, I, you know, they, I, you know, there's debate about the effectiveness of that, but, uh, you know, I take vitamins three times a day and, um, and I'm very aware of, uh, you know, uh, uh, all my nutritional levels, you know, like I do blood work every two months with my guide, you know, to see, like I, like I'm, here's what I, here's the good thing about where I'm at with it all now. I no longer, like, it's so easy for me to live in the vague, you know, just sort of like la, la, la, la, la, you know?

• 1:17:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  And I don't do that anymore.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Meaning like I'm, you know, I'm, I'm aware of where I'm at pretty much, even, even the stuff I don't like, I stay aware of, you know what I mean?

• 1:17:48Rich Roll?

  Right. You're not in denial, like that you have some, you know, where your blood pressure is at and your cholesterol and all that kind of shit, like you're staring it in the face.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:56Rich Roll?

  But I, that's a, it's a, as somebody who's struggled.

• 1:18:01Rich Roll?

  With your relationship with food and having a kind of a healthy handshake with it. It's a tricky tightrope walk because if you get too into that kind of stuff, then you're back into like obsession.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. I don't know. I'll tell you this story and I think you might know this or maybe not. But you know, I, for the longest time, if I was not plant-based, I was pescatarian, right? And I worked out four to five times a week, you know. You know, I've always, you know, I'm always obsessing about my weight, but I'm, you know, I was in a fairly healthy range.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  And my blood pressure's always been on the high side because it's hereditary, right? My dad had high blood. My dad stroked when he was in his 50s, right? So it's something I'm just aware of and I've never found, like I was on different medications.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  And I just didn't like them, so I avoided, you know, I just tried to like do it with diet. And but my MD was, you know, she was, you know, like it was getting to the point where she was worried, right? So she, I did my routine checkup and, you know, got on the treadmill and did the EKG. And, and she saw something on the EKG that she knew was like nothing, but used it as an excuse to send me to a cardiologist, right? And said, you should go see the cardiologist and, and it was basically so that the cardiologist would scare me into taking blood pressure meds, right? She was like teaming up on me.

• 1:19:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like to get like, you know, so I go to the cardiologist and with Kate and I did the, the big, the two big, you know, the test. And you're in the, the Roto thing and they-

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  Do the calcium.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the whole, the whole deal, right? And I was like, literally, they're like, just give me every fucking test you have.

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  So we can see that everything's fine and then get the fuck out of here. And so we get into the office, right? And we're sitting down with my cardiologist, who now is like, you know, my best friend and-

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  He looks really worried. He's like, um, can you, I have something come up. Can you guys come back after lunch and why don't you go cross the street, grab lunch? And so we're like, oh, okay. And then we're at lunch, we're like, wow, I wonder what happened. Like, he looked really worried, like, you know, and completely clueless that when we get back, that who he was worried about was me and that a major artery in my heart was like 90% clogged, right? And had

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  The LAD?

• 1:20:37Rich Roll?

  Lower

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, the widow maker.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, and he had nothing to do with, uh, um, diet. It was completely hereditary and probably started happening 15, 20 years ago, the breakdown of it, right?

• 1:20:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this, it's over time. This is exactly what happened to Kevin Smith.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Um, and, uh, so, uh, we go back to his office and he shows me the pictures, right? And I'm just like, I'm like numb. I'm like, it's like, who, who, who are you talking about? You know, I'm the guy that, you know, I work out six days a week. I'm, you know, I eat, you know? And, uh, so I went and, you know, they do, uh, I had a stent put in, right? And, uh, but my reaction to that, and this is a little, you know, this is, you know, what kind of cloth I'm cut from, right? My reaction to that was,

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  fuck this, right? And that's when I started smoking. That's when I started eating meat. I, my reaction to it was, well, if this, if, if, if doing all this has nothing to do with the quality of life and my health, what the fuck is the point?

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, forget it.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Forget it. And

• 1:21:58Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  And I started smoking and, you know, so the whole time I was doing Bastard in the UK.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  You know, I got up till a pack and a half a day.

• 1:22:09Rich Roll?

  I knew that you were smoking.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:10Rich Roll?

  And I was like, what are you doing? Like, maybe he's just stressed out. I did not know that you had a stent put in.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that was my response to it.

• 1:22:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Not like, oh, my God.

• 1:22:20Rich Roll?

  You, because in your mind, you're like, I've been a good boy.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:22:23Rich Roll?

  And this is what I get?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  So fuck you.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  I can't eat, I can't be any healthier than I already am. So fuck it.

• 1:22:30Rich Roll?

  Right, but those plaques, you know, started when you were seven years old.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:34Rich Roll?

  It was like, it's a lifetime of building up.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. But.

• 1:22:38Rich Roll?

  And the truth is, you can, and I'm sure your cardiologist has told you this, like, you can reverse that stuff.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:22:44Rich Roll?

  And thank God you had a stent put in and you didn't have like a massive coronary.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Nothing, there were, it was asymptomatic, you know, until it's not.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  You know, and so it was so surreal. And that was, you know, that's the kind of cloth I'm cut from. That's how I dealt with it.

• 1:23:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm not surprised, knowing you, you know, it's just like pushing back on everything.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:07Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, at times, you're on worst enemy.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  I absolutely.

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  And, and the whole time I'm doing it, completely aware on some level, what was happening.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  Self sabotage.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  And, you know, and then, and then, of course, you know, I tried to quit and I'm like, oh, this is what they mean when they can't.

• 1:23:26Rich Roll?

  What a new addiction.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you know, so, and, and it's not like I, you know, started smoking and dropped 50 pounds, you know, like, none of that happened. But, you know, the whole time I was in London, I was smoking and then I came back and, you know, it took me about six months to ultimately let it go. And, and then I did, and then, you know, my lifestyle shifted and got back to, you know, what I knew was not just the way to live, it was how I lived, you know? And which is, you know, where I'm sort of at now, right? But there was a two and a half year period where I was like. What's the point?

• 1:24:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  You know? And, uh, and I don't recommend that to, uh, to anyone.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, not a good idea. I'm glad you came back from that, though. Man, you know, you're a good dude. We want you to stick around.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  You know, it's so weird because it's like, I never had any doubt that that's how I, you know, it's not like I thought that's who I am now.

• 1:24:26Rich Roll?

  But it's that, it's that, it's that distinction between like intellectually, you know, you're, you have total awareness of what you're doing and you know, it's not good for you. And yet what is that thing that's compelling you to like walk down that dark alley?

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it is. It's that, uh, you know, and who you're, you know, it's that, you know, fuck you. But the only person you're saying fuck you to is yourself. You know what I mean?

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  It's sort of like who you, who are you defying here?

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  This person?

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:58Rich Roll?

  Exactly.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  So, um, you know, and God, you know, my, and my wife Kate was, you know, like she saw all this happening and, you know, uh, and, you know, we were, we had our own stuff going on at the time. And so it was just this, you know, it was this sort of, you know, bizarro Kurt for like two years, you know what I mean? And, uh, uh, and still, you know, navigating around some of that. But, uh, uh, but as far as, you know, health stuff, it's, you know, it's really been, you know, it's been a little bit over a year and, uh, and, and that's where, you know, the conversation we first had when I, when I saw you today was about weight and, you know,

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  like I knew when I was like quitting that I was going to pack on weight. And that's when I would I sort of changed things up in terms of my workout and, and, uh, and, uh, if I was going to put on weight, at least I wanted to put it on in the right places.

• 1:25:55Rich Roll?

  Muscle.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Rich Roll?

  And, uh, change up the beard geography a little bit.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, that was actually, that was actually for some acting I did.

• 1:26:02Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:26:04Rich Roll?

  Um, yeah, cool. Uh, so let's work up to that. I mean, all right. So, so you kind of bail on Rutgers, you go to New York City, you're studying Meisner, you're doing like, you know, off Broadway theater, right? Stuff like that.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Yes, bad off.

• 1:26:18Rich Roll?

  And then like you moved to LA, but then you go to grad school in, in Northern Illinois. Like, you know, what's, what's going on? Like you, when did you first come out to LA?

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  I, I first came out to LA in the.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Mid eighties, late eighties as an actor, you know, and in pursuit of acting out here. And that's sort of when, like, I didn't get sober, but I knew, you know, I had started going to OA at that point and I was aware of, you know, what some of my demons were, you know, like I was, I was, things were becoming, you know, I was, things were becoming, sort of getting into focus. And, and I came out here, originally I came out here to LA at an odd time. It was the first writer's strike back in the eighties and it was just in like the really bad timing.

• 1:27:14Rich Roll?

  Right when there's nothing to do.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and then I talked to, you know, my mentor studying in New York was this woman Catherine Gately and, and, you know, and so I ultimately went back to New York to study with her to teach, right? Because I thought like, this is really what I love to do. And if I can't do it as an actor, you know, this was a technique that really spoke to me that I understood on a really sort of visceral level and perhaps, you know, I can, I can teach it and, and then direct theater. And that was sort of the, the plan, coming back to New York in the early nineties. And then, you know, I was with Catherine and then Catherine was offered a sort of master

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  teaching position at Northern Illinois University, about a half hour outside of Chicago. And, and she, you know, really, she sort of took me under her wing and took me along as, and so I went out there as a student, you know, but really with the focus of learning the tech, you know, and it's the technique I had studied with her, right? So it was about, you know, taking the technique again, really looking at it through the eyes of being a teacher and a director. And, you know, and I did that for It was, it's a three-year program and I, I was in DeKalb, Illinois for two years.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  And then, you know, the rest of it I did pretty much through, um, uh, through, uh, um, independent studies, right?

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  And so was the dream then that you would go into academia or that you'd become a theater director?

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the dream then was like, oh, this is, you know,

• 1:28:59Rich Roll?

  Be a teacher.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go get into academia, not realizing that, first of all, the arts budgets in, across the board in all schools were shrinking and being a white male was, uh, was not, you know, high on the, uh, you know, the registry in terms of who was being hired. And, uh, you know, and really became aware that if I wanted to do that, most likely it would be like, you know, some community college out in, you know,

• 1:29:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  Grizzly Point, you know, wherever.

• 1:29:33Rich Roll?

  Did you feel like you couldn't go back to New York and, and, or LA and like, take a stab at, at the acting thing? Do like, did you get your ass handed to you or do you just feel like you were there at the wrong time? Like, what was your mindset then?

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  I think at that point, I really, you know, I loved acting, but I think I really,

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  you know, I was really focused on, you know, uh, teaching and directing. Like I, I, it's not that I didn't like acting and I, and obviously I did a lot of it when I was in grad school, right? It's part of the program and, but, uh, it really was, you know, wanting to, you know, basically, you know, how do I make a career out of the arts, out of the thing that I love, right?

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  And felt like, you know, as much as I loved acting, being an actor was too, you know, uh, my practical, you know, pragmatic brain couldn't sit with, you know, uh, or couldn't trust that

• 1:30:35Rich Roll?

  Lack of control.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Lack of control and that I could make a living out of that. And yet, so if there was something, you know, I could do that sort of tapped into that love, but was a little bit more secure, that made sense.

• 1:30:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  So that was the plan.

• 1:30:51Rich Roll?

  You have a little bit of dad talking to your, in the back of your head on that one?

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Oh, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of dad.

• 1:30:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, what was their, like, what was their perspective on, on you, like, pursuing a career in the arts?

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  I think they

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  I think they realized that it's uh it's what I wanted to do. They were very supportive of me going back and getting my degree. You know, they always were.

• 1:31:16Rich Roll?

  Well, something they can understand.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:18Rich Roll?

  You know.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  And understood like, oh, okay, here's a, you know, it was much, it was pragmatic. It wasn't quite as elusive as trying to be, you know, a TV star or, you know what I mean? And so they were supportive of it and and but, you know, it took a while for them to to get there. You know what I mean?

• 1:31:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  And but then, you know, what ended up happening is I I come out of that circumstance and it was a great experience. Like some of, you know, really, you know, some of the most satisfying years of my life in terms of the art. Right? And and really immersing myself in a way that I was never able to do in New York when I was, you know, trying to survive and being an actor. Right? You know, exposed to such great dramatic literature in a way I'd never been exposed to before. And just really kind of opened up my mind and exposed me to, you know, some really, some really great writers and playwrights.

• 1:32:27Rich Roll?

  Who were your guys?

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Um, I liked the surreal, you know, the surrealists, you know, um, like, uh, Jeunay and Ibsen and, you know, all those crazy Russians, you know, uh, the, uh, it was sort of like the ones that spoke to me. You know, as well, you know, I'm a huge Eugene O'Neill fan, you know, so.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  But those, you know, the, the, the really damaged ones.

• 1:33:04Rich Roll?

  That's surprising.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's like, I love those, I love those, the Russians, you know, like Chekhov, where, you know, on face value, you can read it and be like, oh, my God, and then realize, wait a minute, this is a comedy, and then have to go back and like, oh, you know, but,

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  so, you know, for me, it was, you know, just such an amazing experience. But then ultimately, I went back, I had met my first wife at that point and went back to LA and the plan was maybe to, to teach privately, right? Because I realized, you know, I just didn't have the,

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  I just didn't want to be like in some community college and anywhere in USA, right? And I thought, well, maybe I, you know, I had a friend out here who, or a colleague who was, had her own studio and maybe I could, you know, set up a shingle and sort of have that be who, you know, how to do this. I started writing in grad school a little bit and, and then through a series of events began writing out here. And, and at some point that really pulled focus, you know?

• 1:34:27Rich Roll?

  It's weird that, that you had to kind of go through everything, you know, all these other disciplines around the world of writing before you kind of hit that bullseye for yourself.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is. And I, and it's interesting because I, it was a very circuitous, you know, but what I realized is that everything I did up to that, not just life experience, but, you know, academically and training wise, really.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Created a unique set of tools that gave me what ultimately became my voice. And that any other way, it probably wouldn't have happened. Now, it's hard to, you know, and the only way that can happen is to let it happen and then look at it in hindsight, right? But, you know, that became really clear to me that, yeah, it took me a long time to get here. And, you know, when I first got my first gig on The Shield, I was 10 years older than everybody, you know? And, you know, but at that point, I, you know, my trajectory happened fairly quickly.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  And it's almost like I, you know, it's like all that stuff was sort of just lying in wait.

• 1:35:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it got plugged into like just the sort of ultimate project for you to sink your teeth in. Like, it couldn't have been more kind of creatively aligned, you know, with where your instincts were coming from. I mean, were you aware of that in the time? Or you're just, you're probably still trying to figure out what your voice is.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

• 1:36:13Rich Roll?

  This is like your first gig.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  It was, it was.

• 1:36:15Rich Roll?

  You know, it's so crazy.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  And I just remember, I remember at my, my wedding to Kate, that Sean said a few words, and we had it at our, our house at the time in Los Feliz. And, and I always remember Sean.

• 1:36:35Rich Roll?

  Sean being the creator.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  Sean Ryan, who's the creator and who hired me. And at that point, I think we were in like the second or third, or the third or fourth season, we were, you know, into it. And, you know, Sean described me as like everyone else, because of the world was so sort of dark and, you know.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  You know, you had to go to those places you don't necessarily like to go to that everybody else sort of, you know, took off a shoe and dipped their toe in and then I basically stripped down naked and dove in headfirst, right? Which, which I, you know, which is kind of true, right?

• 1:37:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  And because it was, it was familiar water for me, right? It was that sort of offbeat, kind of dark, looking at the world through, you know, a lens that you're not supposed to look through, right? And, and it really was, you know, it was so fortuitous that that was my first show and not like, you know, and not that this isn't, you know, like network TV didn't have great shows, but if I had, you know, if I wasn't allowed to like be who I was and someone tried to wrangle me through a different filter, you know, my career would probably be much different.

• 1:37:49Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, what if, what if you ended up writing for Ally McBeal or something like that? I mean, it's like, you know, the fact that you ended up on the shield, I mean, it's so, it's, it's like almost universally divine.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Rich Roll?

  Because, and the timing is so important as well. Because I think it's hard for people to understand, like this is before Breaking Bad. This is before like, you know, this whole like era of the anti-hero hadn't real, I mean, The Sopranos, I guess, you know, Tony Soprano was the anti-hero, but like that fully fleshed out like arc over many seasons of, of this, you know, really palpable visceral anti-hero hadn't occurred yet and Vic Mackey really like brought that to life. And you, you're sort of credited with writing like a lot of the gnarliest, you know, scenes that transpire in that, in that series.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, you know, Sean was such a great mentor and, and really, you know, you know, because I'm, you know, at the time, I'm brand new, right? So I'm being driven, you know, creatively.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  You know, inspired, but you know, personally and emotionally, I'm terrified. Right. Because it's like, it's the first time I've had anything real. And I'm so afraid that it's going to go away.

• 1:39:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a mousetrap ready, ready to spring, you know? So I was really bullish and, and, you know, incredibly proprietary over, you know, what I wanted to do and, and, you know, and a lot of showrunners, I think, would have, you know, been intimidated by that. And, and Sean was just a smart guy and, and intuitive enough to sort of, you know, rein me in when I needed to be reined in, but for the most part, just sort of put up the bumpers that took me in the right direction. And, and really, you know, it's why I feel, I have a lot of, you know, I stayed on that show till the end. Right?

• 1:39:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  And

• 1:39:48Rich Roll?

  Seven, seven seasons, right?

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I really feel like, you know, I was able to contribute at least tonally to the show. Do you know what I mean? You know, ultimately, it's Sean's vision in terms of story, but that, you know, I, I felt like I was really able to find my voice, you know, within the confines of that, of that world and that character. And, you know, and a lot of people wouldn't allowed me to do that, or would have been intimidated by that and tried to shut me down or be threatened by it. And Sean, you know, was just, you know, really smart enough and, you know, and

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  enough of a mentor to sort of nurture it and, you know, set me on fire when, at the right times. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:40:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And maybe have a, more than a few conversations behind closed doors with other people.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Perhaps.

• 1:40:47Rich Roll?

  I know he's a pain in the ass, but like, there's something there. You gotta let me work with this guy. I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, try to make it palatable for everyone else.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:40:57Rich Roll?

  How does it work? Like, I'm always amazed when I watch, you know, a program of that caliber and knowing a little bit about how production works.

• 1:41:08Rich Roll?

  It's just amazing that anything good ever gets made. When you see something that's really good and knowing like the time constraints and the pressures and like all these personalities that have to come together and conspire to like create something.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:22Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm just, I'm baffled by it and I'm amazed. And I'm always wondering like, how does a writer's room work? Like you're in, I just have this vision of like a bunch of people sitting around a conference room table like eating Chinese food at three in the morning and getting into arguments.

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  Some of it. I think comedy works very different than drama. You know, I think there's a lot of that happens in comedy. It's a lot, you know, there's a lot more personalities in the room because you're doing story, but you're also telling jokes, right? So you're servicing, you know, two masters. For drama, you know, you know, anywhere from five to seven writers usually and you have one writer that runs the room and the showrunner, you know, the way I work is, and you know, really from suns on, you know, I'll have one writer that kind of runs the room for me, right?

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  And will, you know, sort of steer, steer story in a certain direction and then I'll come in and I'll weigh in on, you know, what works, what doesn't work, what we need and, you know, and plug in, you know, at different points of the day.

• 1:42:38Rich Roll?

  But prior to that, there must be some sort of, you know, meeting of the minds where everyone gets together and you kind of have to break the arc of the season, right? Like, okay, this is, these are the things that are going to transpire over these 10 or 13 hours.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the way I work is, you know, there'll be

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  You know, I'll have a general arc that like for Mayans, right? There's for this first season, there's a, you know, there's a sort of a broad arc that I want to service in terms of the show, like where it starts and kind of where I want our hero to or anti-hero to land and

• 1:43:21Rich Roll?

  At the end of that season?

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  At the end of that season.

• 1:43:23Rich Roll?

  Like if you could imagine seven years of that show?

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Um, you know, I had a bigger arc for Suns that wasn't necessarily beat for beat of where the show was going, but a great, but a sense of, um, you know, broad strokes where I wanted it to go. Like I knew I wanted Jax to be president and, you know, um, and I have some of that for Mayans, but perhaps not quite as much. And I think that's a good thing because what I learned on Suns is that, you know, I'd have these sort of general arcs or these concepts for each season. And then I learned that the looser I held on to them, the better the season was, right? So I use them really as catalysts, right?

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  And, and mile markers, but then I don't, if the story is going in a different direction, I don't, I don't try to bend it to like a, a pre-existing idea if it's going in a different direction, you know? And that's really, you know, uh, uh, the way, uh, the way I'll work. So, you know, for the Mayans, I'll, I go in with the writers and I sort of pitch out generally where I want it to land, you know? And, um, and then we'll have, um, a sense of, all right, you know, maybe by episode four, I want this to happen. And then by episodes, we're doing the pilot plus nine, right? Where the, you know, so episode four

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  and then by episode eight and then, you know, so by the end we're, we're at this place, right? But it's really, it's, you know, it's sort of broad and, um, and then sometimes I'll break out all the board with episodes and sort of where I want some of those bigger moments to happen. Um, and

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  And then, you know, I let, you know, we'll come up each episode, you have, you know, an A story, a main story, and then usually there's a something that's more character driven, that's a B story, sometimes even a C story, like a little runner that's two or three beats. And, um, and then, uh, you know, but that, uh, that sort of moves you forward towards some of those mile markers, you know? But I, I've learned that, you know, the more I, more open I am to it going someplace else, you know, as long as I don't lose the vision of the show, you know, the better the show is.

• 1:45:49Rich Roll?

  Right, rather than being rigid on some idea that you had previously, that's

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:53Rich Roll?

  kind of at odds with where it's naturally flowing.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and just like, you know, to find like a great character beat, right? Or a, a, a narrative beat that's really, you know, that speaks to the characters in the world, you know, that may send the trajectory going in a different direction. And, you know, not that you can't ultimately land where you want to land, but you may have two or three points along the way, and rather than bending it to try to hit those, you find, you know, you, you trust that if you continue to do what you're doing, you'll, you know, you'll find what you're supposed to pass through to, to get to that point, you know?

• 1:46:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, interesting. You, you had said earlier, you know, by virtue of this grad school experience, that, that, uh, you learned that, you know, you learned these tools for how to tell stories, how to be a storyteller. So like, what are those tools? Like, what is your perspective on how, you know, what makes you the storyteller that you are? What are the guiding principles of that?

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  Um, that's a great question. I think, uh, uh, you know, for me, in, in grad school, it was being exposed to, um, you know, and it's, it's, it's not, it's nothing that you can then like kind of rip out and go, oh, I'm going to use that knowledge here, right?

• 1:47:19Rich Roll?

  Kurt Sutter's five tips.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, yeah. Uh, um, but I think what I, what I learned was, um,

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  Here's where my, you know, my narrative and my exposure to, you know, to dramatic literature, classic dramatic literature, you know, the poetic realists were obviously my favorite, right? Where that knowledge and then my acting sort of kind of worked hand in hand is that, you know, I always had a really good sense for bullshit moments, right? Like if I was, it was made me a pretty good director and a pretty good teacher, right?

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Is that I could usually know when actors were not connected or the moment didn't feel real. And, you know, so what I was able, what I realized I was able to do is take that skill and apply it to how I write dialogue. So that I, you know, I'll, you know, it's why I'm not a showrunner that gives actors freedom with language, like the line. No improvising on your set? Yeah, you know, the words on the page are the words I want to hear. And if they don't work, we'll figure it out together. But like I spend a lot of time and energy in putting the right words in the, in the characters' mouths, right?

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  And so I realized that ultimately that skill was very translatable to writing, you know? Like I can hear, you know, when I write, you know, the magic for me is, you know, I'll be alone in my office and, you know, I'll hear that conversation, you know? And I'll, you know, I'll be in it and I'll feel it and, you know, you know, be weeping at the parts where those characters are weeping or angry. Like I can, I can take the emotional journey of the characters. Yeah, you're like an emotional cipher. Yeah, and I think that's what allows me to, at the very least, write authentic dialogue, you know?

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  And, and then, you know, and then I have to be collaborative in terms of letting my director have an interpretation of that and having the actor have their interpretation. But ultimately, as long as those moments are, you know, steer the story in the right direction, then, you know, I'm doing my job.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  I don't know, I forget what your question was, but.

• 1:50:00Rich Roll?

  It doesn't matter. I think you answered it. I, I, the follow up to that would really be, you know, what is, what is your like practice of writing? Like, are you, do you, you have like a routine? Do you have like a methodology for how you approach these things? Like, are you a late night guy?

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  It's, it's like if I have 10 days to write a script or rewrite a script, like I'll get my writer's draft and, and, you know, I wish I had the ability to do this and, and I may, you know, this is, in fact, this weekend I get my first draft from, uh, you know, I wrote the first episode, which is done and, and I'm getting the next episode that two other writers have written. And, uh, you know, um, for the most part, I always sort of do a page one rewrite, right? And it's not, has nothing to do with the writer's inability to understand or interpret the story. It's just, I, you know, I kind of have to hear

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  the voices in my head. Do you know what I mean? Uh, so, um, which is really, uh, uh, my process. You know what I mean? So.

• 1:51:07Rich Roll?

  Are you actually acting it out in your office? You saying the words out loud?

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  Pretty much. Like I will play out the scene and at least the emotionality of it, you know? Um, and, uh, and then, uh, but you know, and so I'll, I'll get that, uh, you know, I'll get that, um, you know, so if I, so if I have 10 days to do a rewrite, you know, the first six are usually procrastination, you know, and then the last four.

• 1:51:34Rich Roll?

  You're writing an hour of television in four days.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  Jesus. Uh, uh, so, you know, I mean, I mean, that's true and it's not true, meaning that.

• 1:51:45Rich Roll?

  You're thinking about it.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:46Rich Roll?

  It's like percolating in your consciousness.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  And, you know, and I write everything out on a, I have a huge whiteboard in my office and, uh, uh, it covers the entire wall and, you know, and I'll, and the story will be all beat out, but then I'll usually have, you know, I'll just have like, you know, looks like serial killer scroll on the side of it in terms of like, oh, okay, that's what that beat is. And so that when I, when I'm ready to actually sit down and put something on a page, you know. There's been work done.

• 1:52:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  That is, a lot of times, you know, whether I'm driving or, you know, I'll, it'll, it'll sort of come together in, in, in process.

• 1:52:27Rich Roll?

  And you've done it so much for so many years, I would imagine you can kind of trust, like even if you're stuck, like, okay, you know, I've been, I've been here before.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, it's interesting. I always, I do, and then I don't. You know what I mean? In fact, this last-

• 1:52:44Rich Roll?

  What do you do when you're stuck?

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Well, this last script, it's funny. I, I finished it and, you know, there were a lot of changes that I made, not necessarily big arcs in terms that was, that were gonna fuck up, you know, the narrative component, right, where it's going, but just changes and, and I'll find stuff that I'll be like, oh, what if this happened?

• 1:53:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  That, that usually, like, I won't share with anybody until they read the script and they'll go, oh.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  But, and not that I'm-

• 1:53:16Rich Roll?

  You're gonna go in that direction.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  Not that I'm keeping it from anybody, it'll just happen in, in process, right? And I, I've learned to embrace that stuff and, and some of it works and something, but a lot of it does, right? So, um, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be in process with all that and, um, you know, and, you know, I, you know, I just sound like a, if you walk by my office, it just sounds like a, you know-

• 1:53:41Rich Roll?

  Ranting lunatic.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a lunatic, right? And, and acting the scenes out and, and having those moments, but I'll, you know, you know, out of that, uh, I forget what your question was, sorry.

• 1:53:53Rich Roll?

  It's just, like, how do you work your way out of being stuck?

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 1:53:56Rich Roll?

  Like, oh, writer's block, like, is that something you experienced? Do you think that's a bullshit? Or like, how do you, how do you, how do you push through moments where it's not coming to you?

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  It's not bullshit. I think my blocks aren't so much in terms of story as much as nuance, right? Like, you know, in this episode, uh, and breaking the-

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  Third, fourth episode, you know, I had an awareness about what I thought the arc might be and realized that, oh, I have to soften that, right? And, and open it up more to be more, you know, to be a bigger point of view. And so then I can go back, you know, we're going to do pilot reshoots, right? So I can go back into some of those scenes and allow for that to happen, right?

• 1:54:43Rich Roll?

  You could plant that seed.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  I can plant, yeah.

• 1:54:46Rich Roll?

  It'll germinate in episode four.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  So that's sort of, you know, it allows, you know, there's, there's room, you know, there's room to do that. But I, you know, a lot of that stuff is, you know, it's not so much block as in, how do I, you know, knowing where we're going, how do I shape things to lay track to that? You know? And without compromising what it's supposed to be, or without like leaning into, you know, hey, we're going someplace else, like finding.

• 1:55:23Rich Roll?

  Becoming too distracted.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, like finding the balance of that.

• 1:55:26Rich Roll?

  It's like a weird alchemy.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  It really is. It really is. And you still, you'll find, you'll shoot this stuff, you know, and it's always, you know, it's always different when, you know, you, you get the cut and you see the actor's interpretation.

• 1:55:42Rich Roll?

  Well, there's what's on the page and then you're there shooting it and you're like, well, that doesn't look what I thought it was gonna look like, right?

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  And, you know.

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  And then there's what you shot and trying to piece that together in the editing room.

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you, you, and, and, you know, I've learned to embrace that and, and, and really, you know, revel in, in, you know, what it becomes. And, and look, sometimes it doesn't work and you have to go back and, and sort of assert a point of view that wasn't covered to protect story, you know, or character and, but for the most part, I really try to let it be a breathing, living entity, you know? And, and, and let other people's creative point of view inform the show, you know, in terms of interpretation and, you know, it's, it's the magic of, you'll do a scene, uh, let's see, what can I use for an example?

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Like on Suns, right? You'll do a scene with characters that never organically perhaps would come together in a scene like I remember writing a scene for Jimmy Smits and the only way to get him there to to a location was with um uh uh the Unser character, right? You know, so uh um putting him in a car with that character, I was like, all right, what are those guys talking about? And then I realized, oh, fuck, they both love the same woman, right? So what is that scene gonna be like? So you you then have to go, well, let's see, I have to service where it's going, right?

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  So uh, you know, so let me, you know, I have, there's a, you know, there's exposition I have to try to lay in.

• 1:57:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  And then, but then you have point of view, right? And then, you know, you give that to actors like Dayton Callie and Jimmy Smits and you watch it and it's fucking gold, right? Because they bring all of their understanding of who the characters were. And then you think, all right, I just gotta keep writing scenes for those guys, you know? So that's an example of like, yes, it serves the story, but you have actors and a director that bring their interpretation of it. And you go, oh, man, that's that's magic, right? And and then you you you write to that. It's really why I don't, you know, and and the nature of of of production for FX is, you know, allows for this, but it's why I don't like to get too far ahead of production, you know?

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  In fact, I I cut it way too close towards the end and but uh, you know, because I like to be able to get feedback uh from cuts as I'm still writing the show because you'll like, oh, wow, that that really works, right? So how can I, how can I service that, you know, and plug it into the story because that's those two like?

• 1:58:34Rich Roll?

  So you're writing as you're shooting?

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Yes, always, yeah.

• 1:58:37Rich Roll?

  Wow. So then I would imagine that that would that would that would make it more important for you to shoot as much in sequence as you possibly could episodically, right?

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can do, well, I would, I never, we don't block shoot episodes, which a lot of shows do, which means. You'll have the scripts and then you'll block shoot in one location.

• 1:58:56Rich Roll?

  One setup for the next four episodes. I don't mean like that, but I mean, obviously you can't shoot sequentially, but

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:02Rich Roll?

  But if you're going to want to be writing along the way, because what happens is going to inform what happens next.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:07Rich Roll?

  To the extent that you could control that, I would imagine would be something you would want.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's hard, you know, for the most part, I really don't see cuts until they're done. Like, I'm not a guy that really, you know, I don't really watch dailies.

• 1:59:20Rich Roll?

  More like what's going to happen next episode.

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:22Rich Roll?

  How's that going to play out?

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  And, you know, the only time I watch dailies is if like there's something we're not sure about, or if it's a new actor and I want to see what the dynamic is. But what ends up happening is, you know, I'll see it, you know, a cut of it fairly soon, right? That allows me to then, you know, maybe there's a, you know, whether it's the next episode or the episode after that, after that, it's in proximity enough to what I've witnessed to be able to incorporate that in, you know?

• 1:59:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  I mean, it happened early on Suns with Juice and Tig. Like putting those two together was like comedy gold.

• 2:00:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  Right? So then you're just like, how do I, you know, how do I service that? And how do I exploit that?

• 2:00:08Rich Roll?

  Rosenkrantz and Gildan.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

• 2:00:12Rich Roll?

  All right. So, so with the shield, you work your way up, like every year you kind of get promoted. So that by the time we're at season seven, you're an executive producer on the show. Did you feel, and then you go right into Sons of Anarchy, your first show that you created.

• 2:00:29Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know, that show was such a massive success. I mean, it was a cultural phenomenon. Is it still like the most successful show that FX has ever had? I mean, it's crazy.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  It's hard to judge that because the times and the dynamics and the rules changed.

• 2:00:46Rich Roll?

  Whatever. It was huge.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:48Rich Roll?

  All right. So, I mean, looking back on that, you know, I can't, you couldn't have. Predicted that. I mean, what was your, you know, your anticipation, your expectation like going into that experience?

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  The Shield?

• 2:01:01Rich Roll?

  No, going into Suns. And like, what did you take from Sean?

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:04Rich Roll?

  Like, what did you learn specifically from working under Sean for seven years? That you then put to work on Suns?

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Pretty much everything, you know, I, everything I learned in that room in terms of telling story and breaking story. You know, I went to school on Sean and Glenn Mazzara in that writer's room. You know, and

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  and learned, you know, learned how to tell

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  you know, episodic stories.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  You know, I

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  you know, I, I didn't quite know, you know, by the time I was done on the, you know, what ended up happening is, you know, I, my last season on The Shield, rather than taking a money bump, I took a time bump. Because I was, you know, I knew I was developing this show. And I said to Sean, look, I don't want a raise, but I want to be able to throw a couple of days a week at this other project. And Sean agreed and, you know, so I could start to segue into Suns and because what I ultimately found out was that I thought Suns was going to air when The Shield finished and what they decided they wanted to do was air them at the same time. So that first season of Suns aired, you know,

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  you know, with the last season of The Shield.

• 2:02:27Rich Roll?

  I didn't remember that.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  So that was, it was kind of nuts, right? In terms of time, you know? Because suddenly what I thought, you know, was X amount of time got just crunched. And so not only was I doing it for the first time, I was sort of doing it with a gun to my head, right? And, and, and you can only imagine how I react when I have a gun to my head.

• 2:02:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I saw how you reacted more than a few times.

• 2:02:54Rich Roll?

  That was your coming out party.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really was.

• 2:02:57Rich Roll?

  You couldn't like, I'm just a guy in a writer's room on the shield. Like you're a member of a team there. Now it's all you.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:03Rich Roll?

  Your face.

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  But it was, you know, and, and look, the, the network tried to protect me and, you know, they brought in a, a guy to sort of help me run that first season who, you know, I ultimately, you know, within three episodes, you know, crushed him and stamped him into the ground because he didn't get the show, right? And, and he was a talented dude, but didn't quite know what I was trying to do. And, you know, and, and then, you know, so it was, it was really, it was crunchy, man, you know? And, and look, you know, it's all fear, right? So I'm not the kind of guy that, you know, I don't, I don't fade with

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  fear, right? I, I set myself on fire and run at you, right? So, you know, it was, it was bumpy, man. It was really, it was really bumpy. And, uh, and, you know, it took us, you know, and we, I just, you know, we premiered and we were up against, I remember, you know, the night of the show premiered, Sons, was the night Sarah Palin spoke. So we lot, like our, our, you know, who can predict that, right? So the numbers, you know, and that's when people were, before people were TiVoing everything and recording everything and on the DVR,

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  they're actually showing up in front of a TV and, and we got, you know, we got crushed and, uh, you know, but then, you know, we slowly, you know, we, you know, we basically got hammered that first episode, but then we was just this sort of frozen rope for a while. And then by episode six or seven, we started to bump up so that by the time we got to the end of that first season, you know, we were doing respectable numbers and everybody felt good about where it was going and.

• 2:04:46Rich Roll?

  But it was an organic build, you know?

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:04:48Rich Roll?

  And I think what's, what's kind of maybe not unique, but seems to unique to me is that. There's this like, you know, super rabid fanbase that this show developed. Like, it's a very, I don't know how the demographic breaks down, but it's kind of like a, you know it when you see it. And these people like, I just know from like your Twitter following or whenever you've retweeted anything, I get a glimpse at like, these incredibly passionate people who just like adore this program. And, and, and what do you, so what do you, what do you think you tapped into that connected?

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting, I had to sort of shake out all of that and look at it again. You know, when I was getting notes on, on the, on this pilot for Mayans and, and I realized, you know, we ended up doing a massive, like, we ended up doing the same thing we did on Sons, we did major recasting and reshoot like 90% of the pilot, right?

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I remember that, it was Scott Glenn was the first guy and you had to reshoot the whole thing.

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  Right, and we sort of did the same on, on Mayans and, and I didn't, I made the decision not to direct the second pilot, just because, a lot of reasons, but I felt like I was too divided, you know? I thought it would be a good idea, but ultimately, I, you know, I felt that it was, you know, it was, it was difficult for me to take off the producer hat while I was directing and that's ultimately a shackle, you know? So, but, you know, what I was, what I was able to do is...

• 2:06:50Speaker 01

  Is, is, is, take, is, is sort of, I had the opportunity in, in, in the, in the reshoot to sort of take a step back and look at what I was doing that wasn't organic. And what I realized is that I was, for, for an example, we had a, a character that was sort of a matriarch character, and I realized that I was trying so hard to not make her Gemma, that ultimately she was two dimensional. And it had nothing to do with the actress. It was just, you know, I realized what the mistake was, you know, and, and even having

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  that conversation with John Landgraf afterwards in terms of, you know, they tested the pilot and, and it was a limited testing and they only brought in Suns fans to test it. And, you know, which is a double edged sword, right? You have a, you have a, you know, a friendly room, but a friendly room with a lot of opinions. A lot of expectations. Yeah, and a lot of opinions, right? And, and, and I had to remind John, you know, because it was about, you know, the matriarch character and, you know, and really reminding John that, you know, we didn't come into Suns thinking we were gonna get, eventually half our audience would be women, right? It was a male coming off the shield. We were, we were shooting for that male demographic.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  It was, you know, and we didn't say like, let's create these really strong female characters to broaden the show base, right? And so we had no expectation of that, and that just happened organically. And it was, quite frankly, it was the nature of that world, right? That women not, you know, unlike...

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  Locos Nostra, the women in the MC world, you know, they have a function.

• 2:08:47Rich Roll?

  They hold the whole thing together.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 2:08:49Rich Roll?

  The thing spins off its axis without like these incredibly strong women.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so that happened organically. Had I tried to impose that, it wouldn't have worked. Right. So it was reminding John that, yes, we want that demographic, but we have to find it organically. Right. I can't try to create characters to tap into a demographic.

• 2:09:13Rich Roll?

  No, the minute you do that, you're dead.

• 2:09:15Speaker 01

  You're dead.

• 2:09:15Rich Roll?

  And that's, that's at odds with the whole, your whole deal is like being, you know, unapologetically as honest and, and a sort of, you know, fearless and courageous as you possibly can be.

• 2:09:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:26Rich Roll?

  And the minute you step outside of that and start looking at, you know, trying to analyze it, you're, you're doomed.

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09:33Rich Roll?

  But it's got to be hard to preserve that.

• 2:09:35Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. And not, or not lean on it. Right. You know, and, and I was so aware of that. And, uh, you know, and we had a lovely actress and it had nothing to do with her performance. And, but, uh, you know, so ultimately that character got extracted and it really became this dynamic between a father and two sons. Um, Eddie James almost is the dad, right? So we have, you know, it's a great cast and, and, uh, uh, so we, you know, and then.

• 2:10:05Rich Roll?

  The inverse of sons though.

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 2:10:07Rich Roll?

  Where you have the son and the two dads are the ghost of the dad.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, uh, so, but, you know, but as I write this second episode, you know, already there are these organic avenues to these strong female characters, right? Without, but now they're happening organically because, you know, they're coming out of story and they're coming out of character and it's not me trying to impose the matriarch character. Right?

• 2:10:36Rich Roll?

  That goes back to that thing you said earlier about trying to be flexible and, and allow it to tell you where it wants to go.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:43Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  And it's, and, you know, it's, you know, much to the chagrin sometimes of my writers and, uh, you know, in terms of breaking story and creating beats and, you know, that'll, it'll change a lot when I do my draft, but. You know, the magic for me, and this will sound sort of psychotic, but as if nothing else I've said tonight, it sounds psychotic. But, you know, like for me, the magic happens when I'm in those scenes, right? And I hear the characters, right? And I, and I, I'm engaged, listening to them talk to each other and taking them on this emotional journey. And, and then, and then looking at it and then, you know, and go, oh, that's, you know, that,

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  that character is this, right? That's how she responded based on, you know, the backstory we've created and the things that have happened. That's the organic response to that. So, you know, you start to see these characters that, you know, they always start out two dimensional, right? They have to, right? So you start to see, oh, that's an interesting layer, right? That's an interesting layer. I always use this as, as an example, that, and this is, this is really ballsy, but I was like a staff writer on, on the Shield. And it was my episode

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  and Sean was great. We would always be on set with our episode. And we had an actress who it was, you know, that show sort of aired in post nine 11, right? So we have an actress in, in my script, it, you know, she opens, she's, they're doing a surveillance, you know, they're looking for somebody and they're knocking a door and it's a, it's an Egyptian guy. So the character who was a cop, you know, she had this really, in the script, it was like a really strong reaction, right? And the actress who was, you know, you know, really smart and civil minded and, you know, I think her husband was an ACLU lawyer, like

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  she had this very open, you know, political agenda. And she's like, well, she's, and I remember her coming up to me going, Danny would never do that. And I just looked at her and I went, but she does. And, and then just that beat for an actor to go, oh, I have to make that adjustment, that I have to adjust my backstory. And, you know, and then Approach it, suddenly I'm approaching this character from a whole different way. And it's really difficult sometimes for actors. I remember having a conversation with John Hurt at one of the upfront things when he was doing Damages. It wasn't really a conversation, I was listening to John.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, Bill Hurt, I was listening to William Hurt, who was on Damages. And he was a fascinating guy, and he was talking about the process of TV, and how it was so difficult for him. Because he's used to getting a script, and looking at the arc of a character, and beginning, middle, and end, and the growth of the character, and knowing what all the choices were. So that he would start, and then all of a sudden he would get a script that flew in the face of choices he had made. And it was really difficult for him, until he embraced it, in terms of like, being to make those choices on the fly, like, oh, he's a guy who does that. So then, and it's not like it makes anything else he's done bullshit, it's just another layer, right? And it had to shift his whole perspective of how he worked,

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  and how he embraced it. And the good actors really are able to do that. If you lock into really sedentary points of view about a character, and think that the character is one way, or the character can't continue to grow through the arc of a season or a series, you know, you're fucked. So, that was a bit of a rant, I don't know.

• 2:14:48Rich Roll?

  No, it's cool, but as long as it doesn't, like, you set up this world, and so much of kind of what you do is setting a tone. Like, there's a very specific tone to the shows that you do. Like, I don't know how you conceptualize that on episode one, so everyone's on the same page, that's gotta be challenging. And then there are certain rules, like, to the universe. Like, what is the code? Like, you know, your shows are about, you know, a very specific, like, sort of code of honor, it seems like, you know? And that may not be, you know, a normal person's code, but in that universe, it makes perfect sense. And all those characters have to, like, understand those rules, and like, behave accordingly, right?

• 2:15:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:15:27Rich Roll?

  And it's family, and it's, you know, whatever, it gets crazy in this outlaw world. But what I wanted to get at more is, how did that work with, like, Charlie Hunnam? Because it seems like you had, almost like a partnership with him, as you guys made this program.

• 2:15:41Speaker 01

  You know, you have to, I think, you know, ultimately.

• 2:15:46Speaker 01

  You know, what I realized is, yes, I have to have the vision, right? I have to steer the ship. But, you know, you have to empower your actors, you have to empower your directors. And ultimately, it was Charlie and I on this journey. And, you know, so, and Charlie was very, you know, you know, there was very few times when Charlie felt I was taking the character in a direction he didn't agree with. Most of the time, it was, you know, figuring out the best way to get there, you know? And, and he really, you know, and, and, and, you know, Charlie trusted me, you know?

• 2:16:29Speaker 01

  And ultimately, that becomes, you know, an important component for a creator and a star, is that there has to be a level of, you know, trusting, I'm going to trust your interpretation of who this guy is, and you're going to trust, you know, the journey that I'm taking him on. And not that you're not going to bump heads, not that you're not going to have different points of view, but that ultimately, you trust each other's talent enough to, you know, to take it to where it's supposed to go, you know?

• 2:16:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, Mayans comes, comes out, when is that premiering, in the spring?

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  We don't know yet. They're still, you know, they're still negotiating. I'm hoping that we can, you know, I'm hoping we can fall into the old sun's time slot, maybe, and, and, and maybe end of summer, early fall. But they're still, it's still all up in the air right now. We're, we start shooting mid-April, you know? And we're a couple scripts deep right now, and, you know, we're in the, we're in the throes of it, you know?

• 2:17:34Rich Roll?

  It's exciting, man.

• 2:17:35Speaker 01

  It is exciting. It's terrifying a little bit. It's one of those things where... You know, Bastard was a blast and I'm bummed and only lived for one season. But it's been about, you know, it's been a little over two years since I've been, you know, I've been writing the whole time and, but I've been in, it's been a while since I've been in this production rhythm and you're like, how do I do this? You know, how does this work? And then you, then what happens?

• 2:18:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you're the guy who like can't sit still. You hate it when you're not working. So come on, man.

• 2:18:07Speaker 01

  But ultimately what happens is you have no choice. Like you can't, I'm like, I don't, what is this? And then all of a sudden it's sort of like, in fact, I was supposed to go to New York this week and go to, they have, the network has their little upfront thing. And, but I'm already behind on scripts and it's, and it's sort of like, that's what happens. You're like, oh, that's how I do it. I fucking lock myself in a room and I give notes and I write, you know what I mean? It's like you just, you, you, you know, there's a certain amount of wiggle room where you can go, what is this? Until it's like all on top of you and you go, oh.

• 2:18:44Rich Roll?

  Sink or swim, just focusing and like get it done.

• 2:18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:47Rich Roll?

  All right, man. We've been going for a while. I want to be mindful of your time and let you go. But let me just, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you about, which is like how you make it work as a husband and as a father. You know, it's like you're collaborating with your wife. That has to be super intense and challenging. You know, as somebody who collaborates from time to time with my own wife.

• 2:19:09Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:19:09Rich Roll?

  That blurring of the lines between, you know, personal time and professional time.

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:14Rich Roll?

  And then, you know, making sure that you're, you're balanced out enough so that you can be, you know, the dad that you want to be.

• 2:19:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, that's, that's a great question. And, you know, here's what I, generally I, I fuck it up all the time and it's really imperfect. But, you know, I'm, you know, both of us live this, are on this path that sort of forces us to. You know, look at our shit, you know, so I'm always sort of, you know, swinging wide and then, you know, bouncing off a wall and then coming back and re-centering and going, oh, that's who I am. That's what I'm supposed to do, you know? And, you know, Katie and I had bumps early on in, on Suns.

• 2:20:04Speaker 01

  And then, you know, we got into a rhythm and she became very respectful of, you know, you know, and was able to separate, you know, some things and,

• 2:20:16Speaker 01

  and then, you know, and it's interesting now not working together because we did it for so long. We did it for, you know, with Bastard in the UK and, and, you know, and now she's doing her sitcom. And, and, you know, so it's interesting having separate lives again, but in a, in a good way. You know what I mean? And, but balance, you know, the balance is, it's hard, man.

• 2:20:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  It's like doing, you know, trying to stay in that pocket of,

• 2:20:46Speaker 01

  of positivity and, and being mindful is always a challenge, especially for, you know, and I think I can sort of throw you into the workaholic category, you know, where we, it's, we love what we do and it can become all consuming. And, you know, but, you know, I always, you know, I have this amazing, you know,

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  11 year old at home who, who just constantly forces me to re-center. She doesn't let me, she doesn't let me swing out too far.

• 2:21:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  She rattles my cage and say, pay attention, you know? And, you know, in a very Kurt-like fashion, you know what I mean?

• 2:21:32Rich Roll?

  The mirror is up.

• 2:21:33Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it is so up and, but she, you know, she is definitely my, my mirror and, you know, it just,

• 2:21:46Speaker 01

  It's been a game changer in every area of my life. Good, bad, crazy, and beautiful, right? And she's usually the thing that, you know, causes me to, you know, fall off the beam, and then she's usually the thing that puts me right back in the middle, you know? But, you know, balance is a struggle. You know, I have tools that when I choose to employ them, give me some, you know? But, you know, I have to usually get really uncomfortable before I employ some of those tools. Yeah, me both, man. You know, and...

• 2:22:30Rich Roll?

  It's interesting that you guys are both, I mean, you and Katie are both, you know, artists that are, you know, so in your creative vein. You know, it's like Katie's amazing. She's an incredible musician. She can do comedy. She just, you know, what she did on Sons was just mind blowing. Like, her range is extraordinary, right? Like, she's just so prolific in her output. And then you have you, you know, who has a, like, a very strong conviction about the visions that you're trying to manifest. And, you know, normally it would be, you know, one person in the relationship is that kind of creative person, and the other person is more of like the grounded anchor.

• 2:23:09Speaker 01

  Right, right, yeah. No, it's really, you know, in terms of professionally, it's really,

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  you know, I think we're equally respectful and in awe of what each other do. So, there's a lot of respect for that. I don't think there's ever, you know, because we're, of what we do and how we do it. And both, you know, and obviously recovery and this other path, this higher minded path we're both on, you know, contribute to that. But we, you know, we're very aware of the, you know...

• 2:23:57Speaker 01

  Of the respect that we have for each other. And, uh, and it's usually, you know, there's very few professional hurdles, you know? You know, family stuff and personal stuff always is, is, is the nature of it. But, uh, there's always, you know, professionally, we've always sort of been very lucky in that, you know, even what she's doing now and, and Superior Donuts and, you know, uh, she, you know, I think she joneses sometimes for Gemma and, uh, but, uh, you know, but she loves what she does and she does a really good job and she elevates the quality of, of, of the work tremendously.

• 2:24:36Speaker 01

  And, uh, uh, and, you know, uh, I can look at things, uh, you know, that whole other medium, with a whole different, you know, through different glasses that allow me to have the same amount of respect for what she's doing there as she, as she did on Suns, you know? And I think that goes both ways, you know?

• 2:24:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 2:24:57Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:24:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:58Speaker 01

  I think you have that too, man, you know?

• 2:25:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it can be, it can be prickly at times. Like the, the, the, the journey has been to come to that place of like, respect and admiration.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:10Rich Roll?

  And not like trying to ply my version of what I think that person should be doing on, you know, it's like,

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:25:16Rich Roll?

  Like, oh, she's got her thing and like, she's fucking good at it, man. And like, it doesn't need, like, I can stand back now and just like, like, respect it and revere it.

• 2:25:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:28Rich Roll?

  Without having to get too involved in it.

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:30Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 2:25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:31Rich Roll?

  That space, like, and, and the same thing, like, she can give me the space to...

• 2:25:35Speaker 01

  Right. And it's, and that's easier said than done. Do you know what I mean? Like, that is, you know, uh, you know, for fear-based people, uh, and I speak for myself.

• 2:25:47Rich Roll?

  He's been saying for me all day.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  You know, it's hard, it's hard to trust that, right? And, uh, um, but I think, you know, look, I think time and, and, uh, time can remedy some of that. You know what I mean? And, uh, and, uh, you know?

• 2:26:04Speaker 01

  We we we we trust a little bit more and but uh yeah, it's uh it really comes down to uh having that, you know, having that trust and and knowing that, you know,

• 2:26:21Speaker 01

  no matter what happens, that it's all gonna be okay. In terms of success and what show gets picked up, what doesn't happen, who gets the job, who doesn't, you know, that ultimately, you know, that's all. You know, those are all gifts, you know, and and you, you know, you take them when they come and and sort of be grateful for whatever they look like, you know?

• 2:26:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but the the dynamic of your relationship cannot be defined by those things.

• 2:26:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:26:51Rich Roll?

  Or you're screwed.

• 2:26:52Speaker 01

  No, that's that's correct. That's correct. But I think it's um it's learning, you know, how to do that.

• 2:26:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  That enables, you know, because that can be, you know, that can add, there was external threats can, you know, can rip a marriage in half, right? So, uh, you know, uh, but I think it's, you know, I think it's having the ability to know ultimately that

• 2:27:20Speaker 01

  we're all gonna be okay.

• 2:27:21Rich Roll?

  I hope so, man. Are we? Are we gonna be all right?

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  We're gonna be all right.

• 2:27:26Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Good. All right, final thing. Um, if somebody's listening to this and they are, uh, they have a creative spark, but they're frustrated, or they feel stuck, or they they they don't feel like they really understand how to express themselves, whether it's on the written page, or in music, or or in film, like, what do you, I'm sure you speak to young creative types, you know, filmmakers, writers, and the like, like, what is your piece of wisdom?

• 2:27:54Speaker 01

  My piece of wisdom?

• 2:28:00Speaker 01

  You know, it's easy to say this, but I my experience is that, um,

• 2:28:11Speaker 01

  You know, one really has to remove the editor from that process. You know, I think so many writers, and speaking to writing specifically, you know, people are, you know, so worried about doing something that's going to sell or something that people want to hear, you know. So there's, there's this need to like generate something that's going to be successful rather than generating something that means something, you know. And, and once, and when you, when you adjust that process to create something that with a specific result in mind, you're fucked, right? So you write about things that move you.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  You write about things that, you know, whether that, whether being moved means, you know, being enraged, means being, you know, you know, in love, you know, whatever that is, you have to write about something and from a place of, I need to tell this story rather than, I'm going to write this to get this. And I would say 98.7% of the people that generate scripts and stuff in this town are doing the latter. They're writing something, you know, for an end result of this. And not that it doesn't work for them, but creatively, you know, you're, you know, then you're, you know, you're, you're just, you know, a two dimensional machine.

• 2:29:41Rich Roll?

  It's funny, it's funny that that's the case when at the same time, we all kind of understand like, oh, we, there's a dearth of, of really unique compelling voices. Like who's the next voice? Who has the voice? That's what they're looking for. They're looking for somebody who has conviction, who has a point of view, who feels strongly about something. And, and when that, when that is expressed honestly and with skill, that rises to the top.

• 2:30:06Speaker 01

  Right. I always tell writers when they say, you know, I'm trying to write this, you know, or I'm... You know, I want to write a script about this, right? And I say, well, why are you writing a script about this? And they'll, more often than not, well, it'll go back to a specific project, right? And I said, now, do you think somebody, you know, said, write about that? You know, I said, no, that became the thing everyone wanted to recreate because it was what it was. And it's your job to figure out, you know, what means, you know, rather than, you know, starting with the, the end result, you start from, you know, within and then, you know,

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  be that thing that everybody else wants to recreate, you know? And it's hard for writers to wrap their brain around that sometimes, you know? And that's why I'd much rather take a writer who is green in terms of process and, and, and, you know, technique, but who clearly has an interesting point of view, you know? Because that's, that's the gold, right? The rest is just any hack can learn a three act format, right? So, um, uh, you know, and, uh, you know, and there's a lot of talented people out there. But, uh, you know, even some of those talented people get fall trapped to, what do I need to create to get the job?

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  And, uh, and then you're fucked, you know?

• 2:31:36Rich Roll?

  And ultimately, the super awesome job they want will happen when they are able to get to that place, authentic expression.

• 2:31:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely, because anything else they get in the interim is all going to go away anyhow. You know what I mean? Because it's not real or it's not based on anything that they truly are inspired to do, you know? I think.

• 2:31:56Rich Roll?

  Cool. All right, man. Thanks for doing that, dude.

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother.

• 2:31:59Rich Roll?

  Feel all right?

• 2:32:00Speaker 01

  I'm good, man. I'm good. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:32:02Rich Roll?

  Tired out?

• 2:32:03Speaker 01

  No, I'm glad we finally got to a chance to do this, man.

• 2:32:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I appreciate it, man. You've, you've, uh, you have been, um, a source of inspiration in my own life. And you've been there for me as a friend. And I appreciate you as a human being and I appreciate the work that, that you do. So it was a pleasure and an honor to hear a little bit more about it.

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  Ditto, and tremendous respect for you and, and, and your journey. And especially these last, you know, 15, 20 years is really, I tell people about you all the time. And, uh, and tremendous respect for, uh, for what you do and, uh,

• 2:32:39Speaker 01

  And, you know, as I, you know, half-heartedly tried to mirror you.

• 2:32:46Rich Roll?

  I don't know about that, man. Don't do that. I think you're doing all right.

• 2:32:50Speaker 01

  All right, buddy. Thank you.

• 2:32:51Rich Roll?

  Um, cool. Awesome. At Sutter Inc. is how you track this man down. Hit him up. Let him know what you thought of our talk. But, uh, don't bug him.

• 2:33:00Speaker 01

  All right, dude. Thanks, brother. Don't piss him off.

• 2:33:02Rich Roll?

  Much love.

• 2:33:02Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother.

• 2:33:08Rich Roll?

  We did it. It's done. It was good. What'd you guys think? Hope you enjoyed it. Do you want the visual experience? Go to youtube.com forward slash Rich Roll. You can watch the whole thing in all its tricolor splendor. Do me a favor. Let Kurt know what you thought of this conversation. Hit him up on Twitter or Instagram. At Sutter Inc. Sutter Inc. Sutter Inc. S U T T E R I N K. And as always, check out the show notes for links and resources related to today's conversation on the episode page at richroll.com. Did you know the revised and updated edition of Finding Ultra is now available, as is the new cookbook, Plant Power Way Italia. Pick up your copies today. You will be delighted.

• 2:33:51Rich Roll?

  The cookbook has 125 delicious plant-based recipes inspired by that region's rich culinary tradition. But if you want more, even more amazing plant-based recipes that perhaps are not Italian, here's what you do. You go to our meal planner, meals.richroll.com. Thousands of plant-based recipes, literally thousands, all totally customized based on your personal preferences, your time constraints, your budget, how many portions you want to prepare, all that good stuff. It's got unlimited grocery lists, even grocery delivery in most US cities. And we're rolling that out internationally soon, which is very exciting. And it's all available for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. For more, go to meals.richroll.com, dot com, dot com,

• 2:34:36Rich Roll?

  meals.richroll.com, or click on Meal Planner on the top menu at richroll.com. If you would like to support my work, tell your friends, share it, grab their phone, subscribe to the show. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. I would greatly appreciate it. And you could also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo, as always, steadfast. Always there when I need him. Audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. And miscellaneous Blake Curtis on video, video editing, graphics, all that cool stuff I share on social media. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks a little, love you guys. See you back here soon. Peace.