A Woman's Guide To Attracting Women - Kezia Noble - #206

Kezia Noble is a dating & attraction coach for men. Men are struggling to attract women, divorces are on the rise and relationships are more transient than ever. Let's see is world-famous coach Kezia can salvage this car crash of an environment. Expect to learn why guys are so scared to speak to girls, how to overcome approach anxiety, the main errors Kezia sees when men are trying to attract women, how to offset being a good-guy, the importance of sexual chemistry and much more... Sponsor: Check out everything I use from The Protein Works at https://www.theproteinworks.com/modernwisdom/ (35% off everything with the code MODERN35) Extra Stuff: Check out Kezia's Website - https://www.kezia-noble.com/ Follow Kezia on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kezianoble18/ Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - Episodes You Might Enjoy: This Is How To Master Your Life - David Goggins - #577: ⁠⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠⁠⁠ How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs - Dr Jordan Peterson - #712: ⁠⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠⁠⁠ The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain - Dr Andrew Huberman - #700: ⁠⁠⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠⁠ Get in touch. Join the discussion with me and other like minded listeners in the episode comments on the MW YouTube Channel or message me... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ModernWisdomPodcast Email: https://www.chriswillx.com/contact Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There's three main sticking points that guys come to us with. The first is approach anxiety, that feeling of being not good enough, owing in with that negative mindset. She's going to say no, she's busy, I'm not going to be her type, you know, a million excuses. So they're starting off already on the wrong foot and that affects their energy, their vibe, their body language, everything. The second one is conversation skills, just being able to express themselves with confidence and authentically. The third one is getting stuck in the comfort zone, we call it, which is just not escalating in any way at all, not showing his intent, not flirting. It's the most common one out of those three and where all kind of lies is that conversation skills, essentially that transition from opening line, getting her full attention emotionally and mentally. I mean, that's that

• 0:45Speaker 00

  transition, it's very, very difficult to achieve.

• 0:52Chris Williamson?

  I'm joined by Kezia Noble. Kezia, welcome to the show.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 0:57Chris Williamson?

  Hello, how are you?

• 0:59Speaker 00

  I'm fine, thank you. How are you?

• 1:00Chris Williamson?

  Very good, thank you. What do you do for a job? Describe your job for me.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  I'm a dating and attraction expert for men.

• 1:08Chris Williamson?

  Dating and attraction expert for men, so not for women?

• 1:13Speaker 00

  That would be the blind leading the blind.

• 1:16Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay, okay, I get that. I've noticed this online upon doing a little bit of research for this. It appears there's a lot of women teaching men to date. Why is that the case? Why is it that women are teaching men to date and not men teaching men to date?

• 1:32Speaker 00

  Okay, so my research says the complete opposite, is that there's more men teaching guys to attract and date. I do think that there are some women who are now, you know, doing their thing. I think that's quite recent. But I actually know a lot more guys that do this than women. I think maybe, I think the guys get a lot of bad press, unfortunately. The media seems to want to crucify pick-up artists, pick-up, anything related to pick-up. And if you're a woman, you, they're more, how can I put, sympathetic to you teaching

• 2:16Speaker 00

  this, which is totally unfair. I mean, it's good for me.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  But I'll say it is unfair because a lot of these guys, I think, are providing a service.

• 2:26Chris Williamson?

  Isn't it interesting that the end result is the same thing? The end result is getting men to be better, daters more effective at being attractive. But because a girl's delivering it, it's somehow less seedy, less what?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, less seedy. It's like an easy target, isn't it? It's like, okay, if a guy's teaching another guy, you know, the media, the general public believe, you know, oh, he's untrustworthy. That word like seduction, it sounds very, um, very contrived. He must be using tricks and he must be lying to her on some level. Whereas if a woman is is teaching it and she's not actually going out and applying and demonstrating it, that's okay because it's in the abstract almost.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  It's it's more kind of like, well, it's theory rather than she's going out and doing it.

• 3:24Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting that I I find it fascinating that there's a branding problem for men teaching men to pick up women and you've managed to get this competitive advantage. So fair play to you, fair play to you. Well done for being born that gender and.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's great, huh?

• 3:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, for sure. So first things first, where do you see men going wrong the most when dating and trying to attract women?

• 3:48Speaker 00

  Um, well, let's let's look at the most common sticking points that guys come to us with. And what I see in general when when guys are approaching me or my friends. Um, the there's three main sticking points that guys come to us with. And the first is approach anxiety, that feeling of being not good enough, going in with that negative mindset. She's going to say no, she's busy, I'm not going to be her type, she probably likes black guys, she probably likes white guys. You know, a million excuses. So they're starting off already. On the wrong foot and that affects their energy, their vibe, their body language, everything. That's the first one. The second one is uh conversation skills, just being able to express themselves with confidence and authentically.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  Um guys will often talk to a woman with a nice guy filter on, I call it, it's a filter. Um so they they're sort of playing not to lose rather than playing to win. They um just go in there and be very safe, the conversation will be very safe, they'll say the same kind of generic stuff that everyone else says. Um and then at the end of it, they kind of feel like, well, that wasn't me, it was, that was a poor representation of who I am. In fact, that wasn't me at all, that was a very watered down version of me. And that's like, if we put a filter on anything, it gives a kind of nice effect, but it's not impactful. And um as I said, it's it's it's inauthentic. So I think a massive part of it is just guys running out of things to say, not saying anything impactful, not making a connection.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  And the girl loses interest very, very quickly.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  She makes a decision, it's kind of like when he does actually say something quite interesting, mentally she's already checked out. And it's very difficult to um, you know, make impact later on. Um the third one is getting stuck in the comfort zone, we call it, which is just not escalating in any way at all, not showing his intent, not flirting, this kind of comes to the the second point, which is a nice guy filter. Which waters down your character, your boldness, your charm, just waters everything down. And it goes back to the the idea of playing not to lose, you know, not taking any risk at all. Um and then having a very platonic conversation with the girl, so the girl's kind of thinking, well, you know,

• 6:06Speaker 00

  does he like me, does he not, and if he does like me, he's not showing much intent. Um so I don't really know where this is going. So I'd say that most of the sticking points that we have will fall under one of those three categories. But the the most common one out of those three, and where all kind of lies, is that conversation skills, that essentially that transition from opening line to getting her full attention emotionally and mentally, I mean, that's that transition. It's very, very difficult to to achieve.

• 6:38Chris Williamson?

  That's so interesting. I can see both in my own experiences and in the ones of my friends. You might not know, I'm a nightclub promoter. So I've watched about a million drunk people go in and out of venues. Obviously, one of the main reasons that people go out is that they're perhaps single, perhaps looking for a partner. Just, you know, whether that be serious or casual. And up to the girls that are listening, right? You might be thinking, ah, what am I going to listen to those dating tips for guys for? But I want to hear throughout this conversation, as Kezia is bringing up these sorts of things, I want to hear if you've noticed this. So just leave it in the comments below or give me a DM about whether or not you're noticing this, whether or not you have these guys that come up to you and just have this real vanilla personality, like whether or not you think that all guys or the vast majority of guys have nothing to say.

• 7:23Chris Williamson?

  Whereas it might actually just be the case that they are selecting for a particular type of guy who is nervous around you because you're a pretty girl and you've got pretty friends with you and you're dolled up and you've got your hair done. And blokes really, we go out as a group, but like you don't, before we were going out, we probably had our jeans on backwards. You know, we probably didn't really think too much about what we were going to wear and then you're there, you know, fully done up. So I'd love to hear what girls' experiences of being on the receiving end of the sorts of things that we're going to go through today are like. So first things first, how do guys get over approach anxiety? If you don't go and speak to the girl, you don't even get the opportunity to say something that's totally shit to her.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  There's a two-pronged assault that we use on this approach anxiety. The first is actually getting numb to the sensation of fear. I'm a big believer in numbing out rejection, overcoming it, I think, overcoming a fear of rejection. It's a difficult one. I did a video about this in fact, and I waffled on in it so much because it's very, very complex, how to really overcome rejection. I don't believe that you truly can overcome, not so much the fear, but.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  I don't want to wobble on here, so I'm just raining in a little bit. Um, it's becoming numb to that feeling of fear. So the more you do something, you get rejected a few times, hurts, and then basically you numb to it, you become desensitized to it. And that's when I say the kind of fog lifts a little bit. And you start taking better risks and you start becoming um a lot more, how can I put it, um level headed about the whole approach. So if you are going into an interaction and you're like, um you know, fuck it, I'm just gonna do it, I'm not gonna think about it, and then she rejects you.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  That can still hurt you, but after a while it numbs and you have clarity, that's what I'm looking for, you have like clarity, okay, so I don't feel the pain anymore, what do I need to do next? You start asking the right questions. If you're coming from a place of like anger, like, oh, fuck her, she, you know, am I allowed to swear on your?

• 9:41Chris Williamson?

  Swear away, fire away as much as you want.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  I should have asked that before, apologies.

• 9:44Chris Williamson?

  Totally fine.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  So, um, if you're going in that attitude which is, oh, I hope she likes me, I don't want to be hurt. Okay, that's a fog in your head. If you're going in with a kind of like, fuck you, I don't care if you like me or not, you're going in with anger, that's a fog. You can't get clarity, you can't work out what to do next. When you are numb to something, you start asking the right questions, okay, what do I need to do to improve? What, maybe it's that, maybe I need to adjust this slightly. Can't do that when you're, you're caught up in that fog of anxiety and, you know, fear and hate and um um, feeling inadequate, it's just fog. So we, we do that, get them to go up, talk to girls, actually get over the physical

• 10:30Speaker 00

  um, reaction of the anxiety. But then we go. Sort of backwards. So a big fear that guys have when I speak to them is not even the rejection. It's it's actually the fear of running out of something to say, that awkward moment. They're sort of not even at that point of thinking about rejection right now. They're sometimes thinking, but I've got nothing to say to her. Uh, but what if she says this and I don't know how to respond? If you know, if you become a master conversationalist and you know, look, it doesn't matter what she throws at me. Doesn't matter what, she can come to fuck off and I'll make it work. She can tell me that she's from a country I've never heard of and I will,

• 11:10Speaker 00

  I will um say something that will absolutely, you know, capture her imagination and it will what make her want to invest in me. I can trigger her curiosity with whatever she gives me. If you have that kind of level of skill, the approach anxiety decreases because you're you already know, look, no matter what, I'm gonna have an interesting conversation with this person. So what that's what we do. Like this is my seven day mastery program. We used to just kind of start off with helping them overcome approach anxiety. As I said, just going out there, getting numb to it.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  And then I realized, no, we should be doing conversation skills simultaneously. Because they're gonna get to this point where they overcome the approach anxiety, you're gonna talk to a woman and it'll be like, oh shit, I've got nothing to say. And then guess what?

• 11:55Chris Williamson?

  That feeds back into the approach anxiety. Yes.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Absolutely. So honestly, the best thing that you can do is become a master conversationalist. Become brilliant. Just say whatever she throws at me, have it all like lined up. She says this to me, she says that to me. I got it. I got this. I'm not, I'm gonna capitalize on whatever she says and I know how to do it. So a lot of students come to me, I go, I just wanna freestyle and feel, you know, authentic. I'm like, good luck.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Good luck with that. Um, sometimes you do need those kind of go to lines and that go to sequence almost. At the early stages, just to get you through that horrible sort of transition point where everything's very awkward.

• 12:36Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. So canned openers are a big sort of artifact of the old pick apart history world, right? Like, that was one of the things, I think, to have like the first you got to go in, then neg the beta, then do this. And it just harks massively back to the magic days of

• 12:58Speaker 00

  History.

• 12:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah. You know, like, it just, it harks back to that. And I think that's, again, like, as I'm hearing this kind of, whatever it is, third wave, uh, relationship dating advice for men now, or whatever it is, as I'm hearing this come out, I'm starting to see the development of that, right? So it used to be having these canned openers and getting over approach anxiety, avoiding getting KB'd and knocked back and all this sort of stuff. But you've identified here that in order to kind of get your foot in the door, you need to have something that assists you in overcoming that approach anxiety.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  A safety net, I call it.

• 13:35Chris Williamson?

  I love that. So, perfect example, this will be episode 200 and something of this podcast, right? I've done 300, 400 hours of this podcast. I still get nervous before every single one, because I don't want to say a stupid thing at the very, very start. I'll speak to some professor from Princeton, I'm never going to speak to again, unless we become best friends, which happens a lot. But I'll speak to some guy, but I still don't want to look like a fool to him and inevitably the people that are listening, which could be the girl's friends that are sat around her. So the way that-

• 14:11Speaker 00

  I have got a tip fee. Oh, so you've got a tip yourself. Go on, I want to hear this.

• 14:14Chris Williamson?

  I just, I prep the first question. The only question which is fully scripted on this show is the first question, because I just want to get, I'm like, right, okay, if I nail that first, very first question, I'm over it. We're into the conversation. And then it's just a game of spontaneity. What I find interesting is that you've said relying too much on spontaneous wit is actually potentially going to be a little bit of a downfall when you're dating.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  I, can I just, yes, you're right, but there's just one caveat to that. There are people who are naturally witty. They're fine, they're good to go. I'm talking about people who find conversation very awkward and most people do. Most people just are not, they're interesting people, they've got character, they've got a lot going for them, but they're just not engaging when it comes to conversation. They don't know how, they're just hung around the same people all the time. They haven't developed those skills, okay? Um, it's like a beautiful woman. Most beautiful women that I personally know don't have much banter because they've had to rely on their beauty. So, you know, that's all they've had to do. Uh, the, the, the, the girls that are not so attractive have had to rely on their sex appeal, their, their wit, their banter.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Which is why, by the way, when you go to a strip club, the girl that is cleaning up the most is the least attractive one. She's using her head, she's using her banter and wit. Um, that's a fact. Every single strip club you go to, you'll see that the least attractive or like one of the, the less attractive, physically attractive women are doing much better than the really stunning girl who just relying purely on her looks. I digress. Um, uh, back to the point, uh, that I was saying, okay, so if you're a witty person, then it's fine, but most people are not, they're not used to, um, you know, being in those situations where they have like, literally three or four minutes to really make impact, um, and market their attributes,

• 16:07Speaker 00

  keep her interested, connect with her, all this stuff that they're trying to remember. So I have these kind of things like conversational clickbait, things like that, little things I throw in there. I never tell them to lie, by the way, I never ever tell them to lie. Um, and so I give them conversational clickbait and I said, look, if you use this, it will be a great way for you to express your, um, attributes, your, your selling points essentially. Um, but it also really, um, spark her curiosity and interest and, and, and get her to invest in you. I'm a good conversationalist, but I still rely on go-to lines sometimes. If I think, look, I need to, you know, I need to seriously make a bit of impact with this person. I will have my go-to lines even now.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  So I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I've really seen it help. That's all I've seen. It's helped people. And then when you get really good and you become confident, because it's like a positive feedback loop. You start getting better responses. You start going, oh, okay. I don't need that anymore. I can use my own thing. Good, good. Use your own thing. Please get rid of my stuff as soon as possible and use your own stuff. That's what I want you to do. But it's those early stages. It's a bit like, uh, what kids, they have those bicycles, the stabilizers behind, and eventually you get rid of them. But they do need those stabilizers to build up the confidence to get on a bike first, right?

• 17:24Chris Williamson?

  Yes. I wonder how many of the girls are having a visceral reaction, uh, that makes them feel uncomfortable at the potential for the opening line that a guy gives them to be something which wasn't actually designed for them. Because

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't give opening lines. Sorry. Um, very, very, let me just make that really, really clear. What I'm talking about here is the transition from opening lines. So if some guy's going to you, what shall I say? Say, well, say anything to her. You know, ask her what time it is or tell her where she got her tan from. I don't know. Tell her she looks good. But what you do with the data that she gives you, that is what I care about.

• 18:00Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so the magic is in scaling that from it just being, hi, I'm here, look at me, I'm a person, to this is now a conversation and a dialogue.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  Yes, that's the really important part. A lot of guys come to me, I just need that magic opening line. I'm like, I've got great opening lines. Don't get me wrong. It's gonna, it's gonna make her go, oh, that's interesting. And you're gonna gain her attention. But what do you do with the data that she exchanges? Because, you know, conversation is an exchange of data. And a lot of guys forget that. They just start going to interrogation mode. The reason is because they're trying, because they're trying to find the answer that they want. Ain't gonna happen. She's not into the same stuff as you, commonalities.

• 18:40Chris Williamson?

  Football team do you support?

• 18:42Speaker 00

  And even so, let's say you support Arsenal and she supports Arsenal. So you're gonna, there's gonna be attraction.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  I've never heard of a girl, so I slept with him because he supports the football team that my dad supports.

• 18:56Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you never know. You never know.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  I love, listen, I tell you something now. I love dogs. I love dogs. I'm a, you know, dog person. I don't like cats, like dogs. And I'm telling you, not a single guy, uh, has, who said, I love dogs too. I've slept with him based on that. It's never happened. But a lot of guys think, oh, as long as I find out one thing.

• 19:18Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. I want to, I'm just, all of these are just open loops, Kezia. So all that we're doing is opening loops. And I want to know from the thousands of people that are listening, have you ever slept with someone? Because you both like the same animal. Cause someone will have done, someone will be, oh my God, you're a parakeet person. I'm a parakeet person too. And then that's it. That's the beginning of a flourishing.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Oh, the beginning? No, no, no. It can be the beginning. Like, okay, that's something we have in common. Then what do we do with it next? And it goes on and it starts going into different conversations and, and it becomes a very sort of multi-dimensional kind of interaction, very dynamic interaction. Yes. But I don't think anyone's going to say, well, because, you know, we both like the same, you know, fillings in our sandwich.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  That's use the same washing detergent. That's it.

• 20:07Chris Williamson?

  That's, that could be the basis for a great.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Take me to bed.

• 20:10Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, exactly. Whisk me away. Where's the Uber? Um, okay. So that's how someone can get over approach anxiety. And I guess it's interesting that that leads into both the second and third aspects, right? The run out of something to say. And then the, what did you call it? Like up, upscaling? Or the advancing the conversation to like show.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Escalating.

• 20:29Chris Williamson?

  Escalating. That's it. Yes. Upscaling. Fucking hell. Marketing. Too much marketing.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  No, it's all about thing. No, no, no. You don't get me wrong. What I teach is essentially marketing. I say to them, you're the product. Go sell yourself. Um, and they first will say to me, she goes, oh, I don't know what my qualities are. Well, that's a bad start. How can you sell yourself if you don't know what your qualities are?

• 20:51Chris Williamson?

  Sell a product without an offering, man. You gotta have the offering. Look, it's all about, it's either traffic or it's conversions. That's all I'm bothered about. That's what we've been saying for years. Traffic and conversions. Okay. So we've got that. We've got past the first bit. We understand that, um, we can get past our approach anxiety with some. Chosen exposure, right, with deliberate practice so that the fear of rejection. And again, like to the guys that are listening, you know, the feeling, I don't know why it's so terrifying. I don't know if girls can appreciate this. They probably can, but it is, it's the same feeling as standing on the edge of a very, very big drop. Sometimes before you go up and speak to a girl, like it's like a mortal danger.

• 21:34Chris Williamson?

  It feels like you're in, you're potentially going to die, like you're about to get ready for a fight.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Why do you think that is?

• 21:41Chris Williamson?

  I think that for guys, rejection comments massively on who we are. It's wired into us evolutionarily. We don't want to be rejected either by a woman or by the tribe generally.

• 21:56Chris Williamson?

  One of men's biggest fears is rejection, right? You don't want to feel silly.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  I know I'm asking you, I'm just getting inside your head, that's all because.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  It's a, it is a big one. We have a bomb, we had a student, it was a bomb disposal expert. He could, he could do that job, but he couldn't approach women.

• 22:13Chris Williamson?

  That is so good.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  We have police, we have firemen. Shit, I couldn't do that. I would run to a fire, see a fire, run the other way.

• 22:23Chris Williamson?

  Bomb disposal expert.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he's actually on, we've got a video of him saying that as well.

• 22:28Chris Williamson?

  That is intense, but you know, that's a perfect example. And again, like, girls, you might think, oh, I go on a night out, I make all of this effort. I do this, that and the other, and guys don't ever come up and talk to me. It might just be that you keep going to places where guys are shit scared of you because that's probably the most, most likely reason that guys might not be coming up and talking to you.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  I think it's gotten worse though. I think it's gotten worse.

• 22:54Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 22:56Speaker 00

  Well, there's a few reasons, there's a few reasons. Men, and I remember, you know, I've been, I've been, I was going to nightclubs at like 13, 14. And you know, I would, I was 14, I was a bit too young being in those nightclubs. But I would watch, I would watch and I saw men approaching a lot. This is in the nineties, okay? I would see men approaching women a lot. I see women getting hit on all the time in fact. And then, you know, as I got older, it started happening to me and my friends. But the more I went to pubs, the more I found that, I don't want to say men are becoming pussies. That would be, that would be.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  No, I would never say that, but uh hmm, it's to do with, a massive part of it is to do with apps, bloody dating apps. I think that's a big problem with that. People are getting very used to using dating apps. I don't think men are pussies, but I think society has tried to pussify men. Um.

• 23:59Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, a perfect example of this is the fact that it's challenging for a man to teach another man to date without it somehow being labelled as being seedy. But the has

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, the media's totally, society, media's, you know, there's a mad witch hunt going on, going on since even before Me Too, it's been a kind of thing, like it's this strange thing. I think, I personally, I don't want to get too crazy with this tin, you know, tin hat foil, tinfoil hat, tinfoil hat on you. But I think the media is made up, social media, a lot of these people in the tech, I think a lot of them are men who are no good with women. They're like Uber geeks, Uber, Uber geeks we're talking about. Always been shit with women, don't want to see other guys doing well with women. I think personally, I think it's like this big conspiracy theory, which is trying to make men into kind of very

• 24:54Speaker 00

  um feminine, but like pussify them. You're wrong for wanting women, you're wrong for objectifying women. Hello, I don't mind being objectified, I have no problem with it.

• 25:05Chris Williamson?

  I think the dynamic between the sexes definitely appears to be very different, you know, as someone who's thirty two, so I've been able to see the clubbing from two thousand and five until two thousand and twenty, so I got a pretty, pretty good sample.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, you do. But I've got even more ahead of you. I mean, I started clubbing in the nineties and I'm telling you, even to be honest, in two thousand and five, men were approaching women still, but you see now they're looking at phones, they're looking at the apps. Um, it's it's kind of like an easy way to meet women. Everyone says it's a shortcut. It's not actually a shortcut because I don't use dating apps. I'm single right now. I'm divorced. And I'm a single mom, so I should do those dating apps more than anyone. I refuse to go to those dating apps. You know why? Because I see all my friends going, oh, we're wasting so much time on these dating apps. I was like, hold on, this is meant to be a shortcut. They're like, no, go on date after date. I'm like, oh, I've never had that problem. Because every guy that I've gone on a date with, I've already met because he he came and approached me or however I introduced to me.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  So I I met him already and I got a sense. And that's very important, the sense of who someone is. It's a feel. It's the body language. Is it a bit off? What's that eye contact like? What's that manner? You you know, you sense people. And then when you go on the date with them, it can be a letdown, of course. We've had all had bad date experiences. But on the whole, it's, you you you don't, it's not such a big leap as meeting someone that you've only seen a photograph of. So actually, these people who say it's a shortcut, I'm hearing more and more that they're wasting time on dates and drinks. Of people that as soon as they meet them, they go, this is not the person that was in that photograph. I don't mean physically. I'm not talking, physically is another thing. No one looks like their photographs anymore. Not me, not you, not anyone.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  We're all filtered and and people just go up like that when they see us. But um, I'm talking about the sense of confidence because people are very, very, you know, gung ho witty with those text messages, you know. They're very funny, very confident. And then you meet them, think, it is the same person because it's easy to write, easy to write something. And re-edit and think about it. And when you actually meet someone one-on-one for a date, completely different. I think that's a big part of that. I do think that's a big part. I think there's a media kind of um, uh, is it uh, not motive? What's the word? A media um, something, agenda, agenda. Um, against men.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Women are also, I think, making it difficult for men.

• 27:40Chris Williamson?

  How?

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Um, well, I have a lot of students and this is more happening, I've found, in places like San Francisco, where there's a big kind of woke movement going on. Um, and a lot of sort of, um, feminists. And they're telling me like, well, this is what they're telling me, I mean, I'm just giving you secondhand information here, that, um, you know, you just open up a door for a woman and they're getting shouted at.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Shouted at for opening a door for a woman, so I can do that myself. And I think, I think that's very toxic to do that, to have those kind of reactions to people who could just be being polite, not even interested in you. And I think that's kind of spreading a little bit. Most women are okay. Most women, if you go speak to them, they'll, they'll be fine, you know, but, um, there is something, I think, that's been, um,

• 28:36Speaker 00

  been, been, been, been changing for quite a while now. I mean, why do you, why do you think, I'm very curious to know, why do you think men are approaching women less than in the nineteen seventies or eighties?

• 28:47Chris Williamson?

  Can't speak for, for that long ago, but I think apps and the, uh, proliferation of people spending time online, generally more of our social time is now spent. It's just, just generally, you know, like, uh, uh, people, guys talking to guys, girls talking to girls, it happens less because more of our communication is done through our phones, which inevitably is going to skew people toward being better online and worse offline. So that's, that's part of it.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  That's a big one. I agree. That's, that's the big one.

• 29:17Chris Williamson?

  Because it's just a skill at the end of the day. Having a conversation with someone is just a skill. But if you don't converse all that much, you know, you can have people who, I've gone weeks, I'm sure that, that you might have done as well, if you've just been head down in the funnel hole or in your marketing hole, doing your bits and pieces. If you're not careful, you can actually go long periods of days without saying a word to anyone, except for like, thank you to the checkout server at Asda around the corner.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you get rusty, don't you? You get socially very rusty. But what do you think about the whole, um, media movement, you know, that, that kind of? Making guys into the enemy, that whole Me Too thing. I don't want to get too much into that.

• 29:54Chris Williamson?

  Fine. So I thought a lot about this over the last year, the last couple of years. I think that it's challenging to hold in reality at the same time that the Me Too movement has been born out of a very toxic system that was obviously happening in Hollywood and women who quite rightly need to be heard. And at the same time, that typical masculine traits and the fact that men are the protagonists in the dating market for a reason, because that is every man, every male species on the planet, bar like a penguin and a fucking parakeet or something. Men are the protagonists sexually. That is what happens. Men go up

• 30:37Chris Williamson?

  to women. And as girls and the Me Too movement perhaps sometimes push that domain of what is fair, outside of, you know, someone tries to open the door for somebody and whatever it is now, seventh wave feminism, whatever we're up to, perhaps pushes pushes this rhetoric a little bit too hard. Men, quite rightly, only have one response, which is to go, right, well, fuck it. Like, if that's the way that you want to be, I'm just going to leave, leave it. I had Douglas Murray on the show and he was talking about a friend.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

• 31:09Chris Williamson?

  Phenomenal guy. You'd love the episode. Had him on the show and he was talking about his friend's son. And his friend's son is like 18 or something, 17, 18. So you'd be thinking like just about to hit the straps with women, like really, really like hitting the ground running. And he asked his friend and he said, so is he, is your son dating? And he was like, oh, no, he wants nothing to do with women. And he's like, because Douglas is gay, so he can say this. And he's like, oh, my God, he's, he's not fucking gay, is he? He's not gay. He's not got that. He's not got that as his future, has he? And he was like, no, no, no, he just thinks that they're far more trouble than they're worth. Doesn't want anything to do with them. Just thinks that they're far more trouble than they're worth and leaves them be. And like, that is for everyone, for both sides of the aisle, that's a terrible situation for us to be.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  It is. It's really shit. It's really, really shit. For me, what really did it was that Gillette advert. I mean, that was atrocious, that Gillette advert. You remember the one?

• 32:03Chris Williamson?

  I had Sargon of Akkad on here talking precisely.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  Well, I won't, I won't be an echo, but it was just the one scene that got me, all the whole experience got me. And I'm a. I I have a son, so um I'm telling you now, boys like to fight. It's not society, boys choose to fight, okay? Even if you have the most peace-loving hippie family, boys fight. Okay, that's it, that's what they're like. Wrong or right, I don't know, but it's a natural instinct in boys. Girls don't do it so much. Anyway, it was a bit when a woman was walking by and the man went up to approach her. And the other guy stood in front of him like, no, don't approach her. But you don't know what that guy is gonna say. He could have, they could have got married as a result. Who is that man to come along and say, no, you can't approach her?

• 32:49Speaker 00

  I bet you that man, and I know, I know it's it's just an advert and I'm looking into this. But I bet you if that was when you're like, that man's married, he's got his life sorted out. The other guy's single, tough shit, tough shit. Um, and that really got me really, really angry. I feel like we're almost living in a harvest kind of society. It's like men and women can't talk to each other. Get the fuck out of there and go to Saudi Arabia. Really go and live there where women are on one side of the, you know, of the wall and the men are on the other. And go, you know, you do you.

• 33:20Chris Williamson?

  It's a very narrow, it's a very narrow worldview that believes that the the most important situations that we have going on in gender inequality right now are occurring in the UK and in the USA. Like, you just need to look to the Middle East and and countries which have a lot of work to do to realise that that's not the case. And I appreciate that the world, the sphere that everybody lives in is relative, not absolute, right? Like, it's just your problem compared with the people in your immediate vicinity. So quite rightly so, like, everything is done in relative terms. But yeah, I I I agree. I think that there's a lot of challenges at the moment, just in the dating market generally. And I want to get on to actually what girls can do to kind of help men in a second, but.

• 34:06Chris Williamson?

  Just finishing off those last two stages of what we were talking about. So men have overcome approach anxiety. What can they do moving on to make sure that they have good conversation? Any stuff for body language and eye contact? And then how can they escalate, not upscale? How can they escalate?

• 34:23Speaker 00

  Okay, so it's called sexual escalation. And this is, a lot of guys, what they think is they go, right, I need to approach a girl, build up comfort before, get her interested, and then I need to sexual escalate. Yes, but you should be sexual escalating from the very beginning. Now, that doesn't mean trying to physically turn her on at the very beginning. That's where men and women are quite different. Men are, it's much more physical. So I can be talking to a guy, and it's quite platonic. And not every guy, I'm not saying that. But you know, you know, just like the kind of average guy, if I suddenly say, let's go back to my house, and if everything's very platonic,

• 35:03Speaker 00

  all I've got to do is switch down the light, put on a bit of music, give him a massage, and I can turn him on. Okay, the average guy, because it's a physical thing. It's like, oh, okay, I'm simulated. Now, women are not like that. Women don't say, you turn the light down, change the mood, give her, give her a massage, and she's going to get horny. No, it's much more psychological. So I say to men, look, you can't just suddenly go, right, now I'm going to flip the switch, I'm going to start the, I'm going to escalate now, and just get her, you know, aroused. Women can do that to men much more easily than men do it to women. But the man has to be doing, when I say escalating, is he has to be sort of lacing the whole interaction with little attraction triggers.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Okay, it's a more slow process. So he's got to, for instance, demonstrate high value. Okay, is this a man who has high value? Is this a man who has other options? Is this a man who's needy? Is this a man that can get women if he wants? She's trying to assess all these things on some level. Whereas a man isn't with a woman. He's not. He's thinking, is she up for it?

• 36:14Speaker 00

  He's talking the whole time, but he's shocked, right? He's shocked. Um, it's your boyfriend, it's, it's much more sort of black and white, but with a girl, she's trying to ascertain a lot of things. Is he a weirdo? Do other women find him attractive? Um, is he confident in bed? Is he, you know, it's all these things and you've got to sort of drip feed sort of clues to this throughout. And then you'll find that the transition to actually escalating and, and getting her aroused is a lot easier. Does that make sense what I said?

• 36:45Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely, yeah. What are some of the ways that you can drip feed that? Is it touching her on the knee when you say something?

• 36:51Speaker 00

  No, that's physical. That's the physicals I'm talking about, what to say to her, that kind of thing. So maybe if you, okay, so a physical would be to stop, you know, halfway and then sort of take a look at her and say something like, you know, now I know I'm attracted to you. Now I know what it is, but anyway, you, you could do something like that. So it's, it's kind of very playful in those early stages. It's playful, flirty. Is he really flirting with me? I'm not sure. Creates a bit of a chase, you know, a bit of intrigue. Um, giving her a compliment and then backing off like nothing's happened. That's push pull. You can do things like that. But what I'm trying to say here, lots of different things you can do. Yes, a touching thing is you, as you mentioned, but, uh,

• 37:33Speaker 00

  I personally am someone that doesn't really like to be touched that much. I'm just not a warm person, but a guy can really arouse me with his words. Okay. And his attitude. Um, so it, it does depend on the woman slightly. Okay. Um, but yes, flirting, um,

• 37:53Speaker 00

  compliments, the way that you compliment, um, you know, just showing her that you have other options. Women really need to know that. Women don't want to be with a guy or see with a guy that kind of no other girl maybe wants or that maybe. The other thing is if the guy's showing too much desperation or neediness. It's everything that can get in the way when it comes to sexual escalation. Um, placing too much value, giving her way too much value, saying something like, I bet you get this all the time. You know, something like that, it's just, that's a kill.

• 38:23Chris Williamson?

  Demonstrating low value.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Whereas if a woman does have a man, a man can always overlook it. I've noticed that women can get away with so much more because the man is kind of like, as you say, he's more programmed, like, he's shot for it.

• 38:36Chris Williamson?

  He's also not playing that status value game, right? He's not playing the game that, like, if you're attracted to a girl, it doesn't really matter if there's other guys that are also attracted to her.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, he just wants to get his leg over, I know.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  It's very cruel to say that.

• 38:54Chris Williamson?

  We can be as crass as you want on this program.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  No, but he just wants to like, you know, he wants to, um, he wants to fuck her. And it's like, are other guys interested in her? Who gives a shit? I wanna fuck her.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  You know, does she have status? I don't care. I wanna fuck her, you know, but because she's, she's nice looking, she's quite hot and she's got a nice little personality on her.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  The, it, it's not the, um, you know, what they're expecting. And I don't mean, this doesn't, I'm not trying to belittle men in any way, but I, I think most guys, people gonna be honest here will agree, yes, that is the case. Whereas women, it's much more, they need, they need proof and validation or certainty that the guy's like this, that he's like that. And then they're trying to ascertain a lot more. That's what I'm trying to say with women. I know that's with me. I can meet a good looking guy and if he's, if he's just good looking, I won't just sleep with a guy because he's good looking. I won't. Whereas a man will, a lot of men, not all, fine, but a lot of men will just sleep with a woman because she's hot. Only thing that they're interested in.

• 39:57Chris Williamson?

  I think that's, I think that's true.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Not even that, she's available sometimes.

• 40:00Chris Williamson?

  That's a, that's a true, a truth that everybody's forgotten. And it's an asymmetry in the way that we work as well. And again, this highlights, I think, as we move toward a world where some people are trying to make it much more egalitarian, like almost completely homogeneous between the genders, you're going to end up with challenges because as you've identified there, like what a man looks for in attraction with a woman is not the same as what a woman looks for in a man. And what you identified that I thought was really interesting was that you have men.

• 40:36Chris Williamson?

  Speaking to a woman in the way that they might find attractive as a man. So they're almost dating other men. They're like putting their own dating brain inside of the girl and saying, right, I'm going to attack me. I'm going to proposition me as her. It's like, no, mate, like you're playing chess. She's playing fucking something else.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  And I've learnt that with like how I seduce men. When I was young, I didn't have a clue what men want, you know, anything. But now I know that men like to chase. I know they like to chase and they, I think most men don't want to be seduced. But what I do with guys is I will just, I'll, I'll say something that will get in their head. And it will, it will just be something, an image that will stay in their head. And then I fall back and then that's how I do it. Because I know that they are operating on a different way to women. Back to a point, you said that a lot of people are trying to, you know, say men and women are the same. Let me give you an example. All my male friends, okay, who I love dearly. I have seen them at the end of the nightclub. These are good friends of mine.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  And at that game, the end of the club and there's a right scrubber. I'm like, come on, really? And they're like, I just need to fuck for the sake of it. I'm like, really? She looks like Winnie the Pooh. Come on. And they're just like, she's up for it. And these are good looking guys. These are, these are guys that, you know, they, they fuck beautiful women, stunners. But they will fuck a Winnie the Pooh because it's there. A woman, you will never see her at the, at the end of the nightclub going, I'll just take anything. Him, him over there, that trunk guy, he'll do. You know, if he can get it up, I'm good.

• 42:20Chris Williamson?

  Women don't, women don't think like that.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  No, but the man's like, there's a hole, there's a pulse. And if he's in that mood, I'm doing it.

• 42:28Chris Williamson?

  I had Rob, Rob Henderson, evolutionary psychologist on the, on the podcast, talking about dating and evolution and how it all ties together. And he used this analogy, which I think is absolutely perfect. He said that men look for a reason why they wouldn't sleep with a woman. Women look for a reason why they would sleep with a man. And the stats, anyone that went back and listened to that episode, men swipe right.

• 42:53Chris Williamson?

  Eight out of 10 times and women swipe right two out of 10 times. That's the stats on Tinder. The top 80% of women are competing for the top 20% of men. And the bottom 80% of men are competing for the bottom 20% of women. This is stats from Tinder. Now, you can dislike this as much as you want as a guy or a girl, but facts don't care about your feelings. These are the stats out of the back end of Tinder. What does that tell us? It tells us that high pergamy, women dating up and across, is challenging for both women and for men. There's more women competing for a smaller pool of men. There's also this problem with women becoming increasingly educated, increasingly rich, because women often don't want to date a guy who is better educated and/or richer than them.

• 43:38Chris Williamson?

  And if you increase the level at which women are becoming educated, this isn't me saying like, Chris, you're telling them that they shouldn't be educated. No, bollocks. That's not what I'm saying. Obviously. What I'm saying is that because of the natural, the natural attraction dynamic where women tend to date up and across, they like higher social value, they like a man that can demonstrate that value. If you have tons and tons of value, it's like being the really tall girl. Like if you're six foot as a girl without heels, you're looking at pro basketball players and stuff. Like you don't want to be able to not wear heels at your wedding. You don't want to not to be dating a guy that's shorter than you. That just happens to be. And if you take that rule and apply it to earnings and education,

• 44:22Chris Williamson?

  it's kind of the same. The higher that you move up the hierarchy as a female, the smaller and smaller and smaller your dating pool gets. Whereas as a guy, a guy will have a much broader dating pool.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Okay, but there's one exception to the rule.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  And I'm in a really, really good position here. So I, you know, I'm gonna say, yeah, I earn a lot of money and I'm successful and, you know, I've got the big car and everything. And I know, yeah, you're absolutely right. Most guys want someone, a woman less successful than them. I agree. But apart from younger men, they get a massive kick out of it.

• 45:02Chris Williamson?

  Toyboys.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  And I like younger men.

• 45:04Chris Williamson?

  You're dating toyboys, Kezia. Come on.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Barely legal.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Love it. I don't give a shit anymore. I used to apologize. My friends used to take the piss out of me. It's like, I don't care anymore. I don't care. I do younger men. That's it. And they love it. They love it. You know, they love the, they love the car and being picked up in the car and, and, um, you know, the, the, this, you know,

• 45:30Chris Williamson?

  From college?

• 45:31Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 45:32Chris Williamson?

  From college?

• 45:33Speaker 00

  School.

• 45:35Chris Williamson?

  Please, come on. Let's be,

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Joking?

• 45:37Chris Williamson?

  Let's be careful here. Let's be careful here, shall we?

• 45:39Speaker 00

  I'm joking.

• 45:39Chris Williamson?

  Let's talk about,

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Eighteen and over.

• 45:42Chris Williamson?

  Eighteen and over is fine. Um, let's talk about the, uh, those artifacts, that pick apart history artifacts that we spoke about earlier on. Anyone who hasn't read Neil Strauss's The Game or kind of the, um, I guess the period from what about 2000 to 2010 where kind of pick apart history or maybe a little bit later, maybe like oh three to kind of 13 where pick apart history and,

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Golden Age.

• 46:09Chris Williamson?

  Real social dynamics, RSD Max and all of these sorts of guys like were smashing YouTube and putting this sort of comment out. If you don't know who I'm talking about, just like go, go back in time by a decade and, and you'll, you'll see exactly what I mean. But being frank, like even I as a 21 year old, 22 year old, hot blooded male, looked at that stuff and I felt icky like watching YouTube compilations of guys going up and practicing day game, which is just going up and like kissing girls in a fucking park somewhere whilst some other guy YouTube like videos it. I'm like, I, this, there's something kind of weird going on here. And with that having

• 46:51Chris Williamson?

  happened and perhaps set the foundation for what is now your industry, I can see why there is work to be done in the teaching men to become attractive and to date well game to perhaps undo some of the kind of unsavory stuff that happened a while ago. What's your thoughts there?

• 47:09Speaker 00

  I agree you shouldn't ever film someone without their permission. I've never done that. I've had some of my trainers, they said, "Look, you know, can I put something on your YouTube channel, We're Approaching Women?" "Absolutely not. You do you. You do what you have to do, but you know, that's not going off of my channel, because I would hate something like that to happen to me." But I do kind of get why they did it, because people want to see evidence, because these guys, you know, they came out of nowhere. People were like, "Well, can you actually do it?" And if you just say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can," people are just going to be like, "Well, anyone can say that. I need to see some evidence." So I can see it from a marketing point of view, why they want to do it. You know, that, oh god, it's so funny. I have watched it really, really change the pick-up industry, and it has gone much more

• 47:52Speaker 00

  into self-help. Essentially, you're still teaching guys how to attract women. You're just, you know, using different terminology now. The people that were teaching it then, they were people who almost were self-taught and had gone from literally zero to doing okay. But it's changed now. Most of the guys that come, you know, walk through our door are guys that are okay with women. There are some that have not a clue, quite a lot. But there's a lot of who are just like, they're doing okay, but they just want to do better. And I actually asked them, "Have you read The Game?" They never heard of it. So we're getting this new generation coming through, people that just want to get better at stuff.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  And I think we're living now in a culture where people believe in self-improvement. They're much more open and honest about it. So I think that's how it's changed a lot.

• 48:47Chris Williamson?

  There's no problem in the press with someone saying, "I read James Clear's Atomic Habits", though. But there is a problem with someone saying, "I take dating advice," or "I'm taking a course to help to pick up women." I still think there's a fair bit of stigma attached to that. Why is...

• 49:04Speaker 00

  It's changing. It is changing a little bit.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  But yeah, it's still there, but for women to learn how to date men is perfectly acceptable. Have you seen all these people popping up, teaching women how to date men? And I'm like, well, why is that acceptable? You know, why is that acceptable when this isn't?

• 49:25Chris Williamson?

  I don't, so I I've thought about that question a lot. I don't really know. I think I I wanna know, like.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Women are not trying to get them to bed. Women are trying to do something much, much more sophisticated, that's just trying to get a relationship. Well, I'm sorry, that's much more manipulative than getting someone into bed. Get someone to wanna be in a relationship with you by any means necessary. Like, I will do anything to get that man to put a wedding ring on my finger. I think, my god, that's like some hardcore manipulation there that you have to do. You'd be like a completely different person. Getting someone into bed, I think it's, I don't, I just don't think it's so manipulative personally.

• 50:02Chris Williamson?

  So you're saying that the impact of a short term interaction by a guy being more effective is less than the impact of a long term interaction where a woman might, might take these tips and then use them to have a a five year marriage with someone?

• 50:17Speaker 00

  How many times have I heard my male friends say, as soon as I married her, she changed? She lost, she put on weight, that's number one thing, got really fat, and actually had a drinking problem. You know, I've heard it all. I I think men are the same, you know, a lot of women marry men, they go, something's changed. But I think with, I've heard a lot of women have completely changed it. They've got it, you know, they have got, they've got the prize, that's the ultimate prize for women, that they've married. I've done the whole marriage thing, I don't wanna do it again, but most women, they they don't, you know, they get the marriage like, I'm good now. I'm good, I've got someone to look after me, take care of me, have children, have a nice life. He'll love me no matter what, he won't divorce me now. And men really would do anything to avoid a divorce. I've got this whole theory, I don't know why men even marry anymore.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  I mean, that's crazy.

• 51:05Chris Williamson?

  How much should men think about their physical appearance? So we've talked a lot, men, how much should men think about their physical appearance?

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Physical appearance, sorry.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  It is important, but you can't become obsessed with it. Okay, you've got to do the best you can with yourself.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  You know, it's all about a good impression. It does make a difference. Okay. However, saying that, I have, I'm a very looks orientated person compared to the average woman. I, you know, I, I like, you know, I like a handsome guy and I'll forgive a lot.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  Of, I'll forgive a lot if he has a nice face and a nice body. But even I would be like, okay, there's a limit with that.

• 51:56Chris Williamson?

  It's only so boring that that face can allow you to be.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  And equally, I've been with men who are really not attractive, not young, not my type, physically really quite gross, and I've been attracted to them. So I always say to guys, look, game will,

• 52:14Speaker 00

  game, good game, is much better than being a type, much better. It's much more powerful. So yes, make the best of yourself, but remember, even if you make the best of yourself, you're not going to be every girl's type. She's just going to say, well, at least he's made an effort. He looks half decent if you're not her type. Work on the game.

• 52:37Chris Williamson?

  It's much more scalable, I suppose, as well. The fact that if you have, if you're able to make people laugh, I mean, fucking hell, like, if you're able to make people laugh, it's a superpower. It doesn't matter whether you're in a business meeting, whether you're on a night out, whether you're trying to date a girl, whether you're trying to de-escalate a fight outside of a nightclub, like, if you can make people laugh, perfect example of this, I was on Love Island, I was on the first season of Love Island.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  Were you?

• 53:01Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I was first person through the doors.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  When was the first season of Love Island?

• 53:05Chris Williamson?

  Five years ago.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  It's been going on that long, has it?

• 53:08Chris Williamson?

  It has indeed, yeah. Although, I guess we haven't had a season this year, so, yeah. But yeah, and John Clark, who's now on Towie, Jonathan Clark was on my season, and he's like, a big, big lad, like, not.

• 53:23Chris Williamson?

  Huge, but like a bigger fan. And there was like, everyone on there was like the classic sort of reality TV physique look. And John got the Playboy model, the Scouse Playboy model, Hannah. He got her because he's just got bottomless charisma. Like the guy is, the guy is just he's from Essex, got that like classic sort of wide boy mentality. And he just goes and got, he's got so many stories, really funny, centre of attention, despite the fact that physically, you know, there was guys on there that were ex bodybuilders and a professional, ex-professional athletes and all this sort of stuff. But again, with that, John was demonstrating his value through being able to make people laugh, through being personable and easy to relate to and funny, you know?

• 54:07Speaker 00

  I think, here's a question for you. When you were on Love Island, and I appreciate that the girls, personally, I don't, I don't like the look, this Instagram kind of weird face that girls have, but you know, maybe that's your thing. When you were there and you saw these beautiful girls, the one that you were most attracted to, was she the prettiest one or was she the one with more game?

• 54:24Chris Williamson?

  So my season, I make the joke that our season was kind of like a dress rehearsal for the rest of them. But I wasn't attracted to any of the girls on my season, which was the challenge that I came up against. And I couldn't fake it. Like, I'm like,

• 54:38Speaker 00

  You know, they were pretty.

• 54:40Chris Williamson?

  I didn't find them attractive.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, physically. Okay.

• 54:43Chris Williamson?

  I didn't find them, I didn't find them physically attractive. I found some of them interesting, but I didn't find them physically attractive. And that was a huge challenge. Like, going on a dating show and not finding girls attractive is it? But then, the showrunners kept coming in and saying, because the guys weren't being that forthcoming. They had real challenges. Like, a couple made it to the final of season one of Love Island as friends.

• 55:10Chris Williamson?

  Like, you can't imagine that happening now. And the reason I suggest that that happened was that there was a mismatch between what the producers were putting in for the girls and what the producers were putting in for the guys. And that must work in both directions to a degree. But they kept on coming in and they were saying, so what sort of girls are you attracted to? Why you not, like, how come you're not so fussed about this, that and the other? And a lot of the guys said, well, I tend to sort of prefer quite petite girls, maybe girls who go to the gym and this, that and the other. I shit you not, season one of Love Island had Amazon women. Like, every girl in heels was as tall, if not taller than almost all of the guys that were in there. And it's like, ah.

• 55:50Chris Williamson?

  You know, it's not like the girls are, they're great, but they're just not massively my type. And there's only so far that you can kind of push that.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  You're like Winnie the Poohs.

• 56:03Chris Williamson?

  No, that's no, it wasn't, it wasn't.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  I'm joking, I'm kidding.

• 56:08Chris Williamson?

  I know you are, I know you are.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  But yeah, I mean, it's a good example of what you're saying. I mean, my, my ex, my ex-husband was very handsome, but my ex-boyfriend before him was really ugly. He wasn't hideous, he wasn't Quasimodo, but he was quite an ugly guy, got any woman, but any woman. Uh, absolutely fearless, playing to win all the time, used jealousy plotlines on women, understood that jealousy is, makes women more attracted to guys. Um, he, he was a force of nature himself, but he also was, um, was he funny? He was quite funny, not that funny, but he had so much banter.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  So much banter and he was always escalating and he always had one foot out the door, which means I'm not dependent on you. I'm not needy and women love it. Women really love that. They don't want a guy to need them. They want a guy to want them.

• 57:05Chris Williamson?

  How does jealousy turn women on?

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Because if a woman gets jealous, she's in, okay, it's not that, sorry. It's not so much that jealousy turns on women, it frustrates them, but once the woman is feeling jealous, it increases her attraction. It's like, it's, it's kind of like, um, it's linked to the fact that she thinks she wants your attention and you're giving it to another girl. That's the whole point. If she doesn't care about you and you're giving attention, I don't give a shit. But you know, if you can see, right, okay, this is working a little bit, she's, she's, you can't overkill it, you can't, it's a fine balance also. Cause there's some guys that are the other way, they're just too much, you know, and it's like, it's all stick and no carrot.

• 57:49Speaker 00

  There's got to be a little bit, she's just got to feel, in order to appreciate you, she's got to feel that, um, she can't second guess you. It's really important, any guys listening out there, never let a woman second guess you.

• 58:01Chris Williamson?

  What's that mean?

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Gotta be, like, she'd think, okay, so, um, I've texted him, so he'll text me in five minutes, like he always does. Um, you know, everything is just predictable, everything he's gonna do is predictable. Um, he's a safe bet.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  They don't wanna, it can't go, like I said, don't go too far the other way and say become the bad boy or anything. But you know that old saying, like, treat them mean to keep them keen? It actually, it doesn't really mean be a bastard to them. It means just keep them second guessing a little bit, don't be too predictable, um, never ever get needy, always show that you have other options if she doesn't want you. But that's really what it means.

• 58:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  And those alterations make a big difference.

• 58:45Chris Williamson?

  I understand. I'd be, again, interested to hear any girls that are listening if they've been with a guy, dating a guy, that they found to be attractive, but then there was a, some switch turned on where he went into needy, predictable, boring mode. And if that ended the attraction for you, um, I wonder how many guys and girls are sufficiently reflective about what was and what wasn't successful about a dating experience. It's quite easy for us to just, oh, well, she wasn't that this, or he wasn't that that, and, you know, just like kind of throw reasons around. Whereas if you actually were to look at what happened, I'm gonna guess that a lot of people would come upon some of the realizations that you've identified.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Yes, and I think people need to be honest. So when I talk to girls and, or girls, when I talk one on one with girls, I always say, yes, yes. Sometimes when it's on social media, it's like, oh, no, no, I only want a nice guy. And so I'm like, you know, look at the stats, you know, loads of nice guys running around. And what is a nice guy? What they're saying is they want a good guy. Okay, that's not a nice guy. Having a good man in your life. I'm telling you, he's got an element to him.

• 59:54Chris Williamson?

  What's the difference between a good guy and a nice guy?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Okay, so, um, the good guy, I, I'm gonna simplify it, okay? The good guy shows elements of the bad guy. The bad guy shows elements of the good guy. And those are the men who are successful, okay? And then you've got the people who are too good and they end up nice category. And then you've got the, the bad guys who are too bad and they become one dimensional. So it's doing a blend of both. So if you say, look, I'm one of those people, I like to treat women well, I like to hold open the door, get the bill for them, I like that, I respect women, that's who I am. Good, let's work with that, okay? But make sure that you're not so good, that you're not sexually escalating, that you're being really safe with what you're saying, you're not voicing your opinions. Um, little tip for the guys who are really like, I really respect women, is...

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  To, you know, to counterbalance that with being a bit of a bad boy in bed. This is very interesting. It's that, it's that contrast that's very attractive. So I went on a date and I'm going to be quite personal here. Well, I had a boyfriend and he was, you know, the good guy, very polite, everything. And it was getting a bit kind of like, ooh, I need a bit of spice here. And he leant over, he leant over during our dinner and I was kind of like in that moment saying, you know what? This is not really working out. And he said, I can't wait to fuck you later, really hard. And I was like, oh, right. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Okay. But if it'd been a bad guy, like a kind of, you know, bit of a bad guy feel, which I date also, I can do both.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  And he started saying that to me, like, oh, please.

• 1:01:28Chris Williamson?

  It's more of the same.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  It's overkill. So with the bad guy, what is interesting is women will go for a bad guy because you'll show the, that sensitive side in bed. Or the vulnerable side. And it's that contrast. So flipping it around. Um, when I speak to men, a lot of guys say, look, I like the alpha dominant woman. And I said, yes, but I bet you like her to be quite submissive in bed. And you like her to be like quite vulnerable when no one's looking. And they're like, yes, because it's a contrast. They're going to go for a very dominant alpha woman and she's dominant and alpha in bed. There's no other side and it becomes boring. I had to learn to do that because I'm quite like tough and direct. And I noticed that the guys that really like me are the guys who've seen my vulnerable side.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  But when I hide that vulnerable side from, from guys, they're like, you know what?

• 1:02:18Chris Williamson?

  Two one dimensional.

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  Let's call it a day, love. You know? That's my tip for guys out there. You want to be the good guy, go for it. That's your thing. And I encouraged that. I don't try and change people like that. But my God, you need to show a different element to keep her on her toes.

• 1:02:33Chris Williamson?

  I love that. So finishing up, what dating and attraction advice do you have for women? We've given a lot for men this evening. What are the, what are the things that women can do to either help men be better daters or to be better daters themselves?

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  To help men become better daters.

• 1:02:49Chris Williamson?

  Well, obviously, as we've said this evening, like as a, you know, a high level thing that I've noticed is if a guy comes over, if you're single and a guy comes over and you're with your group of girlfriends, don't keep your back turned to him when someone comes up because it's the same girls that I know, because I've seen, I've had 2000, 3000 people work for me over the last 10 years and they've all been between the ages of 18 and 21. And during that time, you have more relationships than you do lectures. And the girls that complain about being single, about not being able to find a good guy are the ones who, when they're on a night out with their girlfriends and a guy comes up and tries to talk to them, will give him this sort of weird sneering, like

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  Just go to me like this?

• 1:03:32Chris Williamson?

  It's that, yeah, that over the

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know that phrase.

• 1:03:34Chris Williamson?

  That over the shoulder thing. And it's like, well, fucking hell, darling. Like, do you want, do you want to have, like, do you want to give a guy a chance? Or do you want to look cool in front of your fucking mates?

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Give him a chance. This is my advice for ladies out there. Throw him a really interesting question. Oh, great question. Something really good that gives him that open goal, that opportunity. And if he fucks up, he fucks up to his loss.

• 1:03:59Chris Williamson?

  What like?

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Uh, I'd say something like, um, oh God, I'm generally very nice to guys that speak to me. I mean, I'm really quite a nice person.

• 1:04:08Chris Williamson?

  I guess as a dating, as a dating coach, you're never going to be a prick to guys that are trying to do the thing that you teach people to do.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  Guys, but even when I was younger, I was never, I don't know, one of those people that just, you know, I could be ruthless. When the time was up, I'd be like, okay, done. But I was never like, someone came to me, I never went like that. I'd never, I'd just be this horrible thing to do to another human being. It's vile when people do that. Horrible. Why do that?

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  I would ask something like, um, I'd say, listen, what's your favourite film? I really would. I would just say very corny and fucking dorky like that.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  If they're gonna fucking say to me, Shawshank Redemption or that other bloody film that men love, uh, what's it called? Well, Leonardo DiCaprio and it's just terrible film that every man loves. What's that?

• 1:04:59Chris Williamson?

  Inception.

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  Inception or something? Oh, yeah, done. I'll just say, no, I'm sorry, I'm done.

• 1:05:03Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  I gave you a chance.

• 1:05:05Chris Williamson?

  I gave you, I gave you a shot.

• 1:05:06Speaker 00

  I gave you the chance.

• 1:05:07Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  You could have just said something different. Ah, you could say something like, you know, what, what do you do and why do you love it? Give them the opportunity. See, you can really give them a chance. Right? What are they gonna say? And if they find funny, witty, or they're just gonna go, I'm gonna carry on playing it really nice and safe. And then you can think, okay, this, I, I, you don't be horrible to them. You go, that's nice for you. I have to go now or something.

• 1:05:28Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  But at least, you know, the guy's like had that chance at least.

• 1:05:32Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm. That's cool. I, I think one thing that I hope girls take away from this, I know we've given a lot of advice. I promise you, I'm trying to find a guy or a girl that can come on and can do the same thing for girls. I think there's an awful lot that both genders have to learn from hearing dating advice for the other side. I know that girls have just had to sit through an hour of like learning like, oh, this is how guys can pick up other girls. But there's a lot of insights that you can glean from that as well, right? To reflect on yourself. Oh, maybe, maybe that's the way that I am. Maybe it's this. The main thing that I'd love girls to take away from this.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  I can tell you something.

• 1:06:07Chris Williamson?

  Hit me.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  For girls, men are very vulnerable. Don't believe all that kind of. It comes to me, they're very vulnerable and most of them really are looking for love. And that's not me being corny and trying to finish on a high note. Yeah, men wanna screw around. They wanna fuck and they all fuck a scrubber, you know, no, no question. But deep down, they really are looking. They say to me, I'm looking for a girlfriend. I'm looking for the one.

• 1:06:34Chris Williamson?

  I think that every, you know, there's, it's easy to tar men with one brush, right? To say the way that men act between the age of seventeen and twenty five is just, you can extrapolate that for the rest of time. And it's like, well, obviously not, but evidently that's not the case.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  The libido goes down and stuff, you know, I think the libido is a big part of it. I mean, a thirty nine year old man has not got the libido of an eighteen year old. He just does not. So that means, okay, he likes sex, but it's not that. Everything is about getting a quick shag, you know, it's not that anymore. It's about something else. It's about, yes, good sex, but with a loving relationship.

• 1:07:12Chris Williamson?

  And that changes the requirements or what a man is looking for. So, yeah, I think using

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  It's not your tits.

• 1:07:20Chris Williamson?

  Using that model, like whatever you have experienced as a girl, as a young dating in the dating world, between the ages of whatever, 18, 25 and maybe 1830 or something like that. And then extrapolating that forward, just running that same script and thinking that this is the way that it's going to be for the rest of time. Like you have to appreciate that that's not going to be the case. But the main thing that I want girls and guys to take away from this is that it's fucking terrifying for most guys to go up and talk to a girl. Like it really, really is a big deal. I know that that's so lame and it's like such a wet thing to say. Oh my God, you went up and spoke to a girl like, but we've just identified there's bomb disposal experts, firemen and policemen out there

• 1:08:03Chris Williamson?

  who are scared of saying, hi, my name's John. Um, can I buy you a drink? Like, you know, the fact that you've got that says absolutely everything. And hopefully today, we're going to have taught guys, look, here are some ways that you can overcome approach anxiety. You need to have, expand that domain of competence, do progressive overload, make yourself become less sensitive to it. You need to escalate. You need to have things to say. And girls on the flip side of that, it's like, be receptive to it. You know, if a guy comes up, unless you're in a relationship or whatever, and even that can be done with a bit of class and grace, right? Like you, you don't need to give the guy who you're not going to be in a relationship with anyway, the like the that show, I can't do the shoulder thing. You know, the shoulder thing. I mean, yeah, yeah, I can't do it.

• 1:08:48Chris Williamson?

  Girls, every girl is innately born with the do the dirty look over the shoulder skill. Um, but yeah, guys, guys don't have it, but like, don't give them that, like that guy might have plucked up a fucking ton of courage to come and speak to you. And the fact that you're in a relationship right now should mean that you should hope, like help that person to get to a relationship as opposed to. This thing that people in fucking relationships do and guys do it as well, but girls do it a lot, where because they're in a relationship, they use it as a yardstick to beat single guys with. It's almost like a guy can come up and they don't need to engage and they can almost be really, really vicious with the way that they respond because they're like, well, I've got a boyfriend. And it's like, yeah, you fucking wouldn't have acted

• 1:09:30Chris Williamson?

  this way six months ago. Six months ago, if that guy had come up to you, you wouldn't

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  have had this. Smug fuckers, aren't they? Smug fuckers.

• 1:09:36Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So smug. So just be more fucking gracious, man. And this doesn't mean, what's one of the main things that we've said today? You need to have this polarity. You need to have this masculine and feminine energy going on. You need to not just be the one thing across the board, this homogeneous playing. I love that thing. What was it? Not playing to win. What is that?

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  Don't play it. Okay. So most people are playing not to lose. You need to play to win. It's game theory. It's gambling.

• 1:10:02Chris Williamson?

  I love that. So I think, and that, you know, a lot of people, they're so terrified. And again, like if a guy's done that, it's probably because he's plucked up a fucking ton of courage to come over and speak to you with your group of girlfriends, all wearing pretty little thing dresses with like, you know, you red bottoms on, like be gracious about it.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. You don't know the backstory. Absolutely. You just don't. He could be a dick, sure, but he also could be someone suffering from really bad anxiety and you're the first person he's ever spoken to, you know, in his whole life. You don't know the backstory. I, I've never, I've just never been horrible to a guy that's approached me. I mean, I think kind of like, you know, I've got to go. Thank you. But I've never been, I've never done that look. I've never done it. It's really, it's funny. Even some of my friends, just I don't hang around with those kind of people much. I'm not, I would say to you.

• 1:10:52Chris Williamson?

  I think maybe.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  Even if I'm thinking this, this person's not for me. I just know it's not. I'm always kind of like, you know, thank you, but no, thank you. But.

• 1:10:59Chris Williamson?

  Maybe if there's, in a situation, how do you think?

• 1:11:05Chris Williamson?

  What can guys do to help other guys date? And what can girls do to help other girls date? Is there anything that you think that they can, they can do? Like, how can you gas your friends up so that they go over and speak to someone? Because it's not often, like, have you ever? Here's a good one for you. The number of girls have come over to me and said, hey, uh, my friend over there thinks that you're really whatever, whatever this is. It's all right, fucking hell. Like, that's, that, that is such a, because what do you do? Because the girl's still sat with all of her friends. Do you go over and just like appear within the group of friends that have all been talking about you?

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  I would just say, well, tell her to come over here. I would just said that.

• 1:11:39Chris Williamson?

  Great point. Showing value.

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  You've got to show value. If you go there, you're going to Lion's Den. It's on her turf. It's like, that's her, her territory. If she, you know, just say to her, yeah, she's, she's gorgeous. Give her that, that bit of encouragement. Yeah, she's gorgeous, your friend. Tell her to come over.

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  Just that, that's that all I would say. Because you, if you just say, oh, tell her to come over.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  The girl might be a bit nervous also, like, oh, what if, you know, what, what if he doesn't like me? But if you've said, oh, she's gorgeous. Okay, fine, she's going to have that confidence to come over to you. Because women can be a bit nervous too. Women are a bit all this also, trust me.

• 1:12:17Chris Williamson?

  That's why you're a professional. What can guys do? Anything that guys can do to help their mates?

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  Oh, um, not really. It's awful for a guy to come over and say, my friend likes you. It's not even cute. It's okay. If he's young, again, if he's 18, it's fine. But, um, the best thing to do is, um,

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  which is one of the best things that we did. We did this experiment where we went out with one of our students and I put him with one of my wing guys. I said, just trust me. I said, just trust me what I'm going to tell him to say about you. So there were some girls at the table. When he went, he could feel that there was no interest being built when, when, when the student went. Because I've got this, don't worry. So this, my, my friend, he's like, he's such a player. It's like, it's best that you're kind of avoiding him. He's just a total player.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  But anyway, and then when he got back, the girl was really interested in him because she'd already heard this. It was like, he's like, you said that. And he's like, yeah, it's working. Don't worry about it. But the other thing, guys, please, and to girls, if you have a male friend, please, please, if you have a male friend, you want to set him up with someone, never ever introduce him. He's a really nice guy.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  So you know what, he's a good guy, be careful of him, be careful, you could do that sort of wink and you'll find that the girl's much more interested, that oh, he's a nice guy, that means, oh god, set him up with everybody.

• 1:13:42Chris Williamson?

  He's been, he's been single for a while, it's just big red flashing lights, right?

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, little things like that, I see so many women, people, women and men do it and they just, he's a really nice guy, I'm like, stop.

• 1:13:55Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, if there was ever a way to completely ruin your friend's dating chances, but again, like, that comes from firstly, a place of good intentions, but secondly, a complete misunderstanding of how dating dynamics work. So today, today, you've taught people some things that are hopefully going to stop them from being quite so shit, both guys and girls. If people want to find out more, guys want to take it to the next level, where should they go?

• 1:14:24Speaker 00

  Okay, go to my website, kezia-noval.com, I'm also on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. Yeah, subscribe to my YouTube channel, that's where most of the information is coming from, 75 million views and counting.

• 1:14:41Chris Williamson?

  Ooh, wow.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  But that means there's demand out there, 75 million views, there's demand.

• 1:14:46Chris Williamson?

  75 million guys thinking, for fuck's sake, well, maybe it's just one guy watching it 75 million times.

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  That's what I think it is.

• 1:14:56Chris Williamson?

  Just this one very, very single.

• 1:14:58Speaker 00

  It's just me, watching my own videos, getting those numbers up.

• 1:15:02Chris Williamson?

  Exactly the same thing that I do. Look, everything that we've spoken about will be linked in the show notes below, including Kezia's website. What have you got? You got a seven day challenge? What stuff have you got if you want to do it?

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  I have the, if you don't want to, you know, come over to London and we've got the home training, acceleration home training programme, and if you do want to get your hands dirty.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  You want to check out the seven day mastery program, which we had to stop during the lockdown, but now we've reopened and we're already really busy. Actually, it's such a good time to meet women. I've noticed it like everyone's talking to each other. They're like, I'm free, I'm out.

• 1:15:41Chris Williamson?

  Finally, I've got some fucking social contact again.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  These are real like we these programs I'm running, we don't just create like kind of like subtle mental shifts. I mean, these are mental breakthroughs. These are huge. We've got so many video testimonials. That's why I always say to people, look, you know, it's not me just saying that I've got hundreds of video testimonials. Go to my website, look at the video testimonials. Then guys from every walk of life, being really honest, putting their faces out there and saying this has completely changed my life. So I hope to do the same for you.

• 1:16:14Chris Williamson?

  Fine.

• 1:16:14Speaker 00

  Not you, but anyone listening.

• 1:16:16Chris Williamson?

  Hey, no, I'm single. I'm single as fuck as well. So I need all the help that you can get. Look, thank you so much for coming on. It's been awesome. I've really, really enjoyed it. Hopefully everyone's taken something away. I want to know what you think, like, is the dating world fucked at the moment? Is it completely terrible? And do we need Kezia's help desperately? Also, if anyone's got any suggestions for who I can get on as a dating coach for women, like, leave it below. I'll try and get in touch with them and I'll try and get them on as well. And then we can, we can learn the equivalent red pills for girls that we've just learned for guys.