326: You Can't Make a Case Sitting Behind A Desk, w/ Joe Piersante

0:00:00 - Opening. 0:004:15 - Joe Piersante, DEA. 3:24:46 - How to stay on THE PATH. 3:47:01 - Closing gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 326 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  Throughout October 30th and 31st, 2011, in furtherance of the Drug Enforcement Administration's Drug Law Enforcement Mission in Afghanistan, Special Agents of the DEA's Foreign Deployed Advisory Support, or FAST, Team, conducted counter narcotics, counter insurgency operations with their police partners from the Afghan National Interdiction Unit, assisted by the Australian Defense Forces. The task force departed their base via four helicopters as part of a mission to execute Afghan drug warrants and to search for narcotics caches and heroin production labs.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  The team began to search the target area and accompanying opium bazaar when they began to receive sporadic incoming enemy fire. They accomplished their assigned duties and then maneuvered to the extraction location all while under sporadic enemy fire. When the task force arrived at the helicopter landing zones, they continued to receive effective enemy fire. One of the four helicopters was forced to make an additional orbit and subsequently land in the vicinity of Special Agents Piersante, Johnson, Vanderbilt, Harris, Stewart, Fisher, Portinga, and five members from the Australian Special Forces.

• 1:32Jocko Willink?

  This helicopter landed under fire. Special Agent Piersante laid down suppressive fire, which enabled Special Agent Stewart, Harris, and Fisher to board the helicopter. Once inside, Special Agent Stewart continued applying suppressive fire. Special Agent Stewart directed an Afghan door gunner to initiate suppressive fire in an attempt to cover the remaining members of the team still outside the helicopter. Special Agent Piersante was approximately 10 meters from the rear of the helicopter when he was hit by enemy fire. The round penetrated his ballistic helmet, entered above his right eye, and exited above

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  his left eye, and he was immediately rendered unconscious and fell to the ground.

• 2:20Jocko Willink?

  Special Agent Portinga positioned himself at the rear of the helicopter and continued laying down suppressive fire as Special Agent Piersante was being brought back into the helicopter.

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  He instinctively put himself in harm's way and returned fire until all personnel were onboard the helicopter. As the helicopter took off, Special Agents Vanderbilt, Johnson, and Harris immediately rendered first aid to Special Agent Piersante and controlled his bleeding, maintained an open airway, and stabilized him. Special Agent Piersante was eventually transferred to the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Richmond, Virginia for continued treatment and rehabilitation.

• 3:03Jocko Willink?

  The actions of all agents involved, both before and following the shooting, were very clearly heroic.

• 3:15Jocko Willink?

  And that right there was an excerpt from an article by the US Department of Justice, who oversees the DEA. And Special Agent Joseph Piersante survived that round to the head. He became the first ever member of the DEA to receive the Secretary of Defense Medal for the Defense of Freedom, and also received the Federal Congressional Badge of Bravery.

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  But, that bullet

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  did do significant damage. Most significantly, it rendered Special Agent Piersante blind. But, he has continued to drive on, to grow, to teach, and has set an incredible example of perseverance for all of us. It is an honor to have him here with us tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned. Joe, thanks for coming on, man.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  You're quite welcome. First, I want to say it's an honor to be part of this podcast, and I was very flattered that you guys asked me to be on it.

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, you're the first DEA guy we've got here. So, you got another first under your belt now.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  But you didn't start off in the D. Let's, let's like, I like to go back to the beginning. Let's figure out where you came from, how you ended up being who you are. Born in Detroit, right?

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Yes, actually grew up, was born and raised in the city of Detroit. My dad was a police officer there. And at the time, there was residency, so we had to live in the city. I'm actually third generation law enforcement officer in my family.

• 5:05Jocko Willink?

  When you say there was residency, what do you mean by that?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  You had to live in the city.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  You had to live in the city to be a police officer in the city?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yes, or any, at the time, any city workers.

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  Wow.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  If you're a fire, uh, fighter, or you know, work for the city sanitation, things like that. You had to live in the city. So we all kind of clustered and huddled in little areas.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  And, and your dad was a cop, his whole career, that was what he did?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Yes, um, he retired, um, in Detroit in 1990, then went on to work at the University of Michigan, their police department, and eventually became chief of police there.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  Did you have aspirations of being a cop as well?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yes, um, you know, growing up, I always played team sports. I was fortunate enough to play college in football at a smaller school in Southern Michigan. And I always liked that kind of team atmosphere. And my father, he worked conspiracy narcotics for years and years in Detroit Police Department. And I just saw that kind of team environment, team atmosphere. And it kind of drew me to it. Even though my father never pushed me to go into law enforcement. And actually, when I went away to college, um, my major at first was sports medicine. Wanted to be an athletic trainer. And then the more I thought about it, I'm like, you know what? I really want to do this law enforcement thing.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  So I talked to my dad and he's like, okay, you know, I support you. And if you're going to do the law enforcement, he worked on a DEA task force, um, and a, a drug task force there. And he says, you know, I would encourage you to go federal just because the pay is a little better. You get to travel the world and you get to see and do a lot of things. And I've always been a, been a kind of rough tumble person. And DEA has always been known as the kind of blue collar federal law enforcement. So he kind of tried to push me that way. And he had friends that still worked there. But unfortunately, when I graduated from college in December of 91, DEA was on a hiring freeze.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  So I went back home to the Detroit, Michigan area and Detroit Police was hiring, so I put my application there and got hired by the Detroit Police Department in February of 1993.

• 7:24Jocko Willink?

  Now, when you say you were a rough and tumble kid, to me, it seems like when I talk to people that had police as parents, they're either like really good on the straight and narrow or they're kind of rebellious. Where were you at? Were you somewhere in the middle?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I kind of had a rebellious streak to me, but luckily I had a strong father and a strong grandfather and kind of kept me on the straight and narrow. And my father was pretty tough on me, but he always supported me. He always went to my athletic events, was there all the time. You know, he, you know, would put a foot up my ass if I needed, but also, you know, was very loving and supportive. I could still call my father today, "Hey Dad, I need help." He's like, "Okay, I'm on the way." A little more background, my dad's father and actually my mother's father, they both served in World War II.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  And my dad's father, he actually landed in Omaha Beach on D-Day and the second wave and later got a Silver Star pushing through Germany.

• 8:30Jocko Willink?

  Dang. When you, did you have brothers and sisters?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  I have one sister, she's four years younger than me.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  But you were kind of the only son, so your dad was at every sporting event that there was?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. And he coached me every sport but football. So, but always even at grade school, he would video my games at the old VHS video cameras and we'd sit down and watch the games after with him and he'd be like, "You know, Joey." You know, they called me, my dad's name is Joe too, and my, both grandfathers were Joe, so they called me Joey. "Joey, you did this wrong, you did that wrong." My mom would be like, "Leave that poor kid alone."

• 9:12Jocko Willink?

  Were you, how were you in school? Were you, did you feel like you had to do good in school because your dad was kind of keeping an eye on you?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I felt, you know, I needed to do, you know, well in school. School, things.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  I would say I have, you know, I'm

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  I know what you're trying to say.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you know, I'm a pretty athletic guy, but I've always had to work, work in life for things. You know, I was taught you work hard, you put the effort in, and if you didn't succeed at something, you go back and look at it and you kind of become, kind of analyze yourself. Okay, what did I do right? What did I do wrong? What can I do better? I've had a good example to, you know, put hard work in. You know, and most often, hopefully, it's going to pay off. And I just had a good example that way.

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  And you played, you played college football as well?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:09Jocko Willink?

  You said, and you, how was that? How was that? Did you guys win a lot? Did you lose a lot? What lessons did you take away from playing college ball?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  You know, I tell you what, I tell everybody, sports teaches a lot of lessons in life. Teaches you how to win, how to lose, how to be a team player, all those things. And I learned valuable lessons from sports. Now, in college, I went to a small school in Southern Michigan called Adrian College. We were the most winningest football team in Michigan in the eighties, all divisions. So, we did really well. When I was there, we won two league championships and actually went to the Division III College National Playoffs in 1988.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  So, it was a good, you know, I was able to get my education and I excelled in college in football. I knew I wasn't going to be the tallest guy, you know, bless my mom, she's only like five foot. So, I better be strong and fast. So, that's when I picked up the weights and kind of blew up soon as I started lifting. So, in college, I was an all-league player twice. I was team captain, team MVP. In our league, we had, every week, they listed an offense and defensive player of the week. I made that defensive player of the week numerous times.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  So, you know, it was, you know, it was a good experience, you know, you, you know, get the bond with those, you know, the people you play with and you learn life lessons and actually in college, you know, you finally get to do thing, you know, classes that you're interested in your major and I did really well in college. And actually in my major, I had over a three-point average and stuff, so.

• 11:53Jocko Willink?

  And you said you transferred or you switched from being in, wanting to be go, become like an athletic trainer into what?

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Sociology, criminal justice.

• 12:02Jocko Willink?

  What, so you made the decision, hey, I'm gonna go, go be a cop or something like that?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Yes, after, after my freshman year, yeah, at the time at our school, we didn't have a just specific criminal justice program. So it was sociology with the emphasis on criminal justice and I continued sports medicine as my minor degree.

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  So then you get done with that, the federal, the DEA is not hiring, as you said, and so now you decide you're gonna go and become a Detroit cop?

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  Is it hard to apply for? How strict is it? Was it easy to get into? Did you, third generation, do you just get like a welcome mat at the front door to get in there?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  I, I wouldn't say that. It was when I showed up to recruiter, you know, it was like, you know, they didn't give me any, cut me any slack at all, you know, you gotta go take your little eye test and this and that and, you know, you go through the process. Of course, it's not as

• 12:57Speaker 01

  intense and as detailed as the process getting hired federally because you have to get a security clearance, you know, but I, I, you know, they do a good job and, um, you know, I had decent credentials and, you know, luckily I just didn't get in a lot of trouble or didn't get caught, so I didn't have bad things on my record. So, you know, I got in fairly easy and showed up there and went through the academy and, um, I'm not only a kind of a musclehead guy, but I'm fairly intelligent and I graduated top academically in my class and got this lamp of knowledge, um, plaque and stuff, a little genie lamp on there. You know, I say this, no great shakes, you know, my.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  I guess my competition there wasn't as as a greatest level as the DEA academics. But it was pretty good. You know, you get to teach a lot, a lot of learn a lot of things. And in Detroit, I grew up there all my life, so I kind of knew what I was getting into. And Detroit on the police department is kind of bat tips of my fire. You get to learn how to be the real police real fast. You know, it's kind of sink or swim.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  And do you immediately just go right out being like a beat cop in the streets somewhere?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  What they did is they took the top people out of our class. And put us in this unit called Tactical Service Section. We were a citywide unit that did crowd control. Also, if there was a barricaded gun person, we would do outer perimeter. And we would work in areas where they were having problems, certain precincts. Or the precincts got overrun with calls. And we would go and flood the area and help the precincts out. So it was kind of like a.

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  Almost like a QRF, like a Quick Reaction Force?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Kind of like that in a way. You know, but you know, we just answered the priority one and two calls, like the shots fired, things like that. Robberies in progress. We took a little of those higher level calls. So it was pretty crazy and Detroit's kind of a weird animal. Like I grew up on the east side. So I mostly was an east side guy. And when I became in TSS, we worked the whole city. So you might be in a couple of different areas or a couple of different precincts, as they call it, in one day. So where I grew up, if I got out and chased somebody, jumped a couple of fences, I knew where the hell I was. And I'll be on the west side, bail out, and I was pretty fast and I could jump fences pretty good.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  So I could usually catch a lot of people and I was in shape. So I jump a couple of fences, I'd be in a yard, holding a suspect at gunpoint. And I would know where the hell I was at. I'd be like, radio, tech three. I'm a couple of blocks east of my original location. Um, next to the burned out garage, but the problem was like every third garage is burned out, so.

• 15:58Jocko Willink?

  So that was the day to day. So you did that right out of the academy? That seems like a strange thing to take someone that's brand new and put them in that kind of situation where you're going into these tough calls all the time out of the gate. That's trial by fire.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, but what was good is a lot of the better officers worked there at Tactical Service Section. So you got to be trained and learn from some of the better police officers. So you know, you really got to learn the job fast and from some good individuals.

• 16:29Jocko Willink?

  Like, how many people were on the team? Did you guys show up in like a freaking armored truck?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Well, each shift we had, we ran two shifts, a day shift and then a power shift. The power shift was seven in the night to three in the morning. Those are like the busiest times.

• 16:44Jocko Willink?

  Day shift and power shift.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  So we roll out to eight to 10 cars, two people in a car. You know, so we would flood an area. So it was good if you needed backup or you needed help. You know, somebody usually was there fairly fast. But it was, it was intense. And then after, at the time my dad finished up, he was on the full-time SWAT team in Detroit and was crazy about Detroit of being a big city. They didn't have a full-time SWAT team until 1986, which to me kind of blows my mind.

• 17:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  And he was on, he was one of the original members on the team. And then after three years of working a patrol type unit, you could apply for a special unit or bureau. They call them also. And I tried out for the SWAT team and later made the SWAT team. In my last year on the job, I was on the full-time tactical team, which was, you know, pretty, pretty intense. You got to do a lot of fun stuff and you didn't have to do a lot of paperwork. It was usually the sergeant of the team, you know, he did the write-up after the barricaded gun person. Or unless you got into, of course, a shooting, you would have to do a report and.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  So you went right from that tactical service section? Into the SWAT team?

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:04Jocko Willink?

  How many years did you, did you do the, the tactical service section?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Three years and then one year on the full-time SWAT team and then.

• 18:11Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you shoot any, did you fire your shot, fire your weapon at all during those three years with the tactical service?

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Not with TSS, but on the SWAT team. It, it took a while to get hired by DEA. You know, government, sometimes it's hurry up and wait and um. I was sitting around and didn't hear anything that I had failed something and. Time went by, months went by and I get a call and they're like, Mr. Piersante, you still interested in a job with DEA? I said, of course I am. Yeah, um, we had lost your application, we found it now.

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  I'm like, this is has every information about me, you know, parents, siblings, every neighbor I've ever had, you know, you know, had and. And the, the process kind of really sped up. So I'm like, three months out from the academy and we go to a barricaded gunman. And one of the precincts in Detroit and it's ex-military person. They have kind of mental problems and they would.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Hold the neighborhood and their family at bay of shooting at them. You know, every so often, so we respond and. We began take over from the precinct, began negotiating with them and. They start shooting at our armored personnel carrier through the window and. Um, it's starting to ramp up and um. We had some officers stationed in the backyard and the person goes out and, you know, exchanging. Shooting at them, but they don't have a clear shot at the suspect. And they had a car in the driveway. And my team was on a break, we were like four or five houses down in between houses.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  And we had um, the one of the suburbans we had with us and we had like half our gear on. And they're like, do not let them get mobile, we feel they're trying, they're gonna might try to go for the car. And then sure as crap, they go for the car. So I jump in the passenger side of the suburb, my buddy drives it, jumps in the driver's seat, we're like half dressed, um. We just got our MP5 submachine gun strapped around us. So we pull behind the car to try to block them in and they start to ram us. And we're like, oh crap. And by this time it was dark and then I see a muzzle flash through the rear window and they start shooting at us. So I um

• 20:38Speaker 01

  exited the vehicle tactically and my partner did and um we opened up into the car and unfortunately had to um dispatch the person and I was like waiting all this time for DEA and then finally I get in a shooting but thank you know thank God it was a good shooting I didn't you know there was no drama with that but I was just like just my luck you know wait all this time and then I get in this you know critical incident.

• 21:02Jocko Willink?

  How how often were you guys as a SWAT team doing hits?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  You know it varied sometimes in a month we four or five times would be maybe a barricaded gun person um sometimes we would serve like felony warrants for more dangerous individuals and once in a while we go out with narcotics if they were hitting a spot which they deemed was pretty dangerous and needed a little more trained unit so we'd go and do that but you know did a lot of training tactical training a lot of shooting you know and as you can attest to the more you shoot the more proficient you know it's kind of a perishable skill so you know we got to do all those type of things so it was it was a good experience.

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  And you were just sporting that 1990s MP5?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yes, nine millimeter.

• 21:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was like oh yeah you're in a vehicle and you have an MP5 and I'm I you know in the in the 90s for me and the SEAL teams you know we use the MP5 and we thought it was cool until we had to shoot somebody that was more than you know 50 yards away and all of a sudden you think this is not a good weapon to have.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  No, or they have a ballistic vest replaced it's not going through it you know and the A pillar in cars will stop that nine millimeter too.

• 22:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah that's uh I guess we've all transitioned away from the the MP5 now uh but damn that's an accurate easy to shoot weapon. I think that's like sometimes people ask me about home defense weapons like for like for a female maybe and I think man an MP5 is not a bad call. You're in the house, you're only gonna shoot someone that's in the house most likely you know so I think it's and it's so easy to shoot so accurate.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yes, well you know you know there's very very little to almost no recoil on that weapon.

• 22:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and with a suppressor on them it's nothing, nothing.

• 22:55Jocko Willink?

  But that's a lot of experience that you had. I mean, just doing hits all the time in the 90s. Just that kind of experience. I remember from the SEAL perspective in the 90s, you know, we looked at SWAT teams, especially, you know, city, big urban center SWAT teams. You guys were doing, you guys were doing work all the time. So the experience that you all had and, and I, you know, we would work with LA SWAT from time to time. SEALs would work with LA SWAT. And it was, we were kinda,

• 23:26Jocko Willink?

  we were kinda envious of the fact that they got to go out and do the job. And, and you know, it's the same thing for you up there in Detroit in the 90s. You just, if you were in the military in the 90s, chances were you weren't doing anything real. You know, so you getting that experience is, that's a lot of experience to have in the 90s from that perspective. So meanwhile, you get done with that, you spend that this year. So how long were you on the SWAT team for?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  About a year.

• 23:56Jocko Willink?

  A year on the SWAT team. And that's, and you got picked up for the DEA after three months of being at the SWAT team? Is that what you said?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  No, I was there a little longer, but it just took, I got in that fatal shooting right three months before I was ready to start my academy date for the academy. I, I got hired with DEA in June of 1997.

• 24:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and this was, you liked the DEA because they're, and I actually never heard that the DEA was the blue collar of the feds. I like that. I didn't know that before. That's the reputation that they have, huh?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  At the time, you know, things, things are changing in law enforcement now and everything. And, but at the time, we were kind of the roughnecks, so to speak.

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  So you get, you get to go to, what is it? They have the DEA academy? Is that what they have?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yes, it's in, was in Quantico, Virginia, inside the Quantico military base. When I went through, us and the FBI shared the same academy. We since have our own academy that's right next to the FBI academy, but we still share the gun ranges and driving track and gym with the FBI.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  And how long is that pipeline?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, Like sixteen eighteen week academy.

• 25:17Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. And what are you doing? Is it legal? Is it physical? Is it? Well, what are you doing?

• 25:23Speaker 01

  It's a little bit of everything. Um, where the police academy was more paramilitary. DEA was more gentleman academy. You know, you didn't have to line up for inspection every day. I see a speck of lint on your, you know, your uniform and getting, you know, the front lean and rest position and all that jazz. Um, but it was very intense, very academically challenging, um, very physically challenged, challenging. We did a lot of shooting. A lot of tactical training, a lot of scenarios. I was, um, very impressed with it. The biggest thing was you're away from your family for four months.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  As opposed when I went to Detroit Police Academy, it wasn't an overnight thing. You come and go and stuff, but it was a very, very intense academy. And then when I went through the DEA, you couldn't go back to where you were hired from. They had this thing with our administrator, who's the person who runs DEA. Um, you couldn't go back because there might be, um, potential for corruption. And to me and my, if you're going to be corrupt, you're going to be corrupt wherever you go.

• 26:33Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  So, um, we, um, you know, three quarters of the academy, they put a list out. And a different spots opened and, you know, say you got fifty individuals in your academy class and there's fifty spots and of course, it's where individuals are needed. And of course DEA with the drugs coming from Mexico, a lot of border spots. So I'm like, well, I don't speak Spanish, so maybe I won't have to go there. Um, a lot of spots in New York, LA, you know, big cities like that. And you get to pick your top three choices. You're not guaranteed necessarily to get any one of those and you can work it out with the class and you get to sit there beforehand and okay, there's so many spots here, who

• 27:15Speaker 01

  wants to put in for one of these spots and you can kind of work it out and then you submit your top three and like I said, you're not guaranteed to get them, any of those spots and if you speak Spanish and there's some border spots, you're probably gonna go to the border and I um.

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  So what'd you put for your top three slots that you wanted?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  I put Phoenix, Arizona, um, number one, I had never been to Phoenix, but was gonna have to move and I was married at the time and my wife had, at the time, had dual custody with her children, two boys, young boys, and she's gonna have to move away from them, so I kind of let her pick and then I put um, Fort Lauderdale and Miami, I was, I had, being from Michigan, I had a lot of family that lived, vacation seasonally in Florida and the winter months, but I also had a grandmother that had a place in Arizona and then my wife at the time had a grandfather that lived there, so put in for Phoenix, Arizona and

• 28:17Speaker 01

  as long as you weren't like a butt head and this and that and you, you know, you, you more or less got one of your top three spots, so I was very fortunate in that, so I got that selected and got Phoenix and then um.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  So what do you do when you show up, you're a new guy, are you a new guy, they call you a new guy, what do they call you?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, they're kind of, you know, F'ing new guy, you know, all kind of stuff, you know, and um, so I find out that I'm going to show up there, I'm going to the clandest clandestine laboratory task force group, gonna be doing meth labs, now from Detroit, I've never seen methamphetamine one time.

• 28:55Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Um, but it's not really an urban city drug, um, meth's kind of more of a white trash drug per se, you know, in the city, you know, you have heroin, or they call it in the city, Heron, and um, of course cocaine, crack cocaine, marijuana and things like that, so I just leave the academy and they're like, Joe, you're going back to the academy for clan lab school, I'm like, oh shit. So I got stuck in the, um, the Klan lab group for my first four years, but it was kinda good because it was a local task force, ran out of the, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. And, um, you got to learn the basics of narcotics investigations.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  How to write a search warrants, how to deal with informants, which is kind of our bread and butter. And you get to learn the job. So it really taught me how to become a DEA investigator. And I would say on the low end of the estimate, I've been in at least 500 methamphetamine labs. And we really, you know, we weren't all the protective gear in it, but really don't know what the long-term exposures to all these caustic and hazardous chemicals are.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  I, I had a neighbor whose nephew, um, got involved in meth. And he told, he had been to prison and he got out of prison. And when I met him, the nephew had gotten out of prison. And I met him and was talking to him and he was, yeah, I was, I was just got out of prison. He said, and he told me, he said, when I tried crystal meth for the first time, as soon as I tried it, I realized that was the only thing I ever wanted to do for the rest of my life was more crystal meth. And he stole everything from his mom, everything from his grandma, everything from his uncle, everything from all of his friends, ruined every relationship in San Diego and then went

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  to somewhere else, San Bernardino and made friends there and stole from all them and then did that all across the country until he finally wound up in Texas. And, you know, that's where he finally got rolled up and sent to prison. But that, that meth thing is freaking crazy, huh?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  No, it's crazy, you know, you know, these drugs are crazy, especially these harder drugs. Like as you kinda said, it controls their whole life, you know, and most of the labs are smaller. We call them mom and pop labs or cooking ounces.

• 31:21Jocko Willink?

  That's cute.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  You know, you know, it's, um, they make enough to get their own for free and, you know, and.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Sell a little bit to their friends, you know, so they get theirs for free and, you know, they're cooking in these houses with these little kids, you know, and everything is off gassing into the, you know, into the air, getting into the carpet and walls and everything else. So we started bringing child protective services with us when we would do methamphetamine lab warrants. And they would bring the kids to the hospital and when they would test them, you know, a high percentage of them would test positive for methamphetamine. Just because the stuff, you know, was in the carpet and the atmosphere, you know, it just breaks my heart, you know, me having a daughter, you know, these little kids involved. And then not only would they get charged with the meth lab and manufacturing, they

• 32:13Speaker 01

  would get charged with child abuse from CPS also.

• 32:18Jocko Willink?

  So you would do these investigations, you're, you're, are you getting human intelligence that's telling you, hey, I get my, I get my meth from this person over here, then you find out where that person lives, then you track them for a little while, figure out, you know, where they're doing suspicious activity, and then do you do a hit on it? How does it work?

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yes, that's one of the means with an informant, hey, you know, you know, informants, you know, some are trying to work off charges, some are just paid informants and they go around and that's what they do, you know, so and so is manufacturing meth here, you know, I've saw, you know, these glassware items, I saw this part of the cooking procedure, I saw these chemicals, you know, and then you do, you know, some more background and then you do, you know, some investigations, surveillance and use kind of some of our techniques that we use to, you know, kind of make sure and validate the informant. And we also get information from different places that sell these chemicals, you know, Joe Blow is buying, you know, keeps buying, you know, every month so many pounds of red phosphorus, so many

• 33:20Speaker 01

  pounds of iodine crystals, or the different stores, when you could buy the cold pills, the pseudoephedrine or ephedrine tablets over the counter, they would kind of, some stores would work with us and they would get license plates. So we'd do a workup and, you know, find out where these people live, then start an investigation, and then when we got enough probable cause for a search warrant, we would hit these locations. Now, because of the dangers of meth labs, a lot of times you don't know what the atmosphere was, so you, when you raided it, you would have to go in with full SCBA self-contained breathing apparatus. But you didn't know what the environment and oxygen level was in the houses.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Of course, you got this big tank on your back and it's kind of cumbersome and a lot of local SWAT teams were clan lab trained for tactics, so there were little smaller tactical bottles you could use, so a lot of unknowns and, you know, one of our investigative techniques you go through and garbage cans when they put it on the curbs, a lot of these

• 34:28Speaker 01

  meth people that know that we would pull trash, so they would save every bit of lab trash they ever had in one room. So you're missing, you know, you're missing mixing acids and bases together and things are off casting, so it's not a very safe environment, to say the least.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  What's a paid informant?

• 34:48Speaker 01

  They're actually

• 34:52Speaker 01

  almost like a professional informant. But it's like for money seizure and drug seizures, we would pay them money. So they go around and work and travel sometimes from city to city just to make money as an informant. You know, and at different times when, you know, budgets and we had good money and you know, they got a certain percentage of a a cash seizure or acid seizure. You know, they can make some fairly decent money.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  And what, these are just guys sort of off the street or do they apply for that job?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  It's really, you know, you have to fill out a a package for a person that wants to be a confidential source. Of course, you have to run their criminal history. Make sure they have no active warrants and, you know, you have to supervise them pretty tight. And, you know, some people get approved for to work as an informant, some don't, just because their criminal history and their stuff is just so bad. You know, so it's you know, it's a catch 22, you know, you can't get a choir person, a choir boy, you know, to catch people, but it's it's a fine line and you have to manage it well.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  And as you're doing this and you say you went into over 500 meth labs in, how many years was that?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Four years.

• 36:10Jocko Willink?

  In four years. So that's like, you know, hitting a meth lab every two or three, maybe four days going into those things. Did you feel like hey, we're making a dent? Or sometimes you just feel like we're just overwhelmed and this is, we could keep doing this forever?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  It got to the point where it was bad for a while, you almost felt overwhelmed because there were so many. And it was so easy to get the precursor chemicals to manufacture methamphetamine here in the United States. So then we started, as a whole DEA, we started cracking down into the companies that made the ephedrine tablets or the pseudoephedrine pills, which is one of the primary precursor chemicals of methamphetamine, and would track where they're shipping and made them harder to get. And that's why you probably see, like, if you buy any cold medication that has pseudoephedrine, you got to buy it. You have to get it from behind the counter now.

• 37:11Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Because people were going in and just, you know, buying two, stealing two, two boxes, and they called it like smurfing pills, and they would get enough to make, you know, how much methamphetamine they wanted to make. So that started really putting, we saw that started putting a dent into it. You know, and of course, you know, then originally, when I was working these labs, of course, there was a lot of methamphetamine coming up from Mexico, but it wasn't that pure. So a lot of the true tweakers did not want it. They wanted that real pure glass, ninety-eight, ninety-nine, you know, percent pure methamphetamine, which was homegrown made.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  And then, once the, we, you know, cracked down on the precursors, it harder to get here, Mexico started picking up their game and started making the real pure methamphetamine down in Mexico and sending it up through the border.

• 38:08Jocko Willink?

  So does that mean you were dealing with the cartel, the big drug cartels?

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Um, yes, a lot. And especially when I worked in Phoenix, you know, of course, that's what is, you know, the southwest is controlled by the Mexican drug cartels.

• 38:24Jocko Willink?

  Um, do you have any, you know, big memorable operations or that you did that you were part of?

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Yes, um, like I said, most of the labs were like mom and pop tweaker labs. But I was able to do a um, couple of pretty big, we call them Mexican national labs. Where they're making multiple, multiple pounds at one time. And um, the sheriff's office had some information. That um, they had a couple of guys came in, they wanted to work for money and they knew of this big Mexican national lab. West um, of Phoenix in an area called Whispering Ranch. You know, and we're like, okay, I went with a guy, I went with another partner to see what they had to say. You know, a lot of times, a lot of things can be BS and people overhype and overblow it up.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  You know, so we go out there and, you know, hey, this is group of these Mexican nationals, you know, they're making, you know, thirty, forty, fifty pounds of meth at a time, and they're cooking out in this real rural location. You know, so we get a workup and start doing some investigation. And identify where the people are living in the city and we have an informant that's willing and knows when they're out there cooking. You know, so we're building up a plan and, you know, of course, it's out in the middle of nowhere. So there's no address of this place, there's a parcel number, so you're getting like a GPS grid coordinates. Hit this place and that's what's on the, the search warrant and, you know, you know,

• 40:01Speaker 01

  how are we gonna hit this place and they're cooking, are we gonna do an air assault, what are we going to do? So we finally, it got up in um, got close, okay, they said they're gonna cook this weekend.

• 40:12Jocko Willink?

  And what's the timeframe on all this? Like, how long does this take? Is it, is it weeks, is it days, is it months?

• 40:18Speaker 01

  It all depends, it varies. I think this one in particular. Um, I think we were working on it for a couple of months. So the informant says, I think they're gonna cook this weekend. I said, okay, we'll get ready. So, you know, we're preparing and getting, you know, as much information as we have typed up in the search warrant and everything. And we knew there was a property close to them, which the guy was kinda involved. And if they were gonna run from the lab location, they, more than likely, they were gonna go hide at their res- that residence. You know, so the informant calls me, okay, they're going out and buying a bunch of ice. So, one of the processes of cooking meth, at the end, you gotta start adding ice to things and

• 41:03Speaker 01

  cool it down. So, we knew, okay, they're cooking. They're almost, they're getting close to done. So, we spin up the team, we put an affidavit with the, the informant says, and we get it signed by a judge. And we were working with the sheriff's office at the time. And it was decided, we're not gonna do an air assault, we're gonna convoy in there. And, you know, this is a rural location, you know, and you convoy, you know, in a desert-type environment, you're kicking up dust and stuff. They can see you coming from five miles away. How big of a team are you bringing? And this is like an assault team? Yeah, we're bringing the, um, the, um, the Maricopa County SWAT team, you know,

• 41:43Speaker 01

  it's probably twenty-something individuals. Our lab team, you know, we probably got ten individuals or so. And then we're bringing chemists and hazmat and everything else. So, it's a pretty good force. Big convoy. Big convoy, a lot of dust. Big dust up. So, of course, um, the plan was the SWAT team is gonna hit the lab location. Do you put a recon element out, at all? Or just do aerial, or nothing? We had an aerial prior, but we didn't have time to get people lied in there, laid in there to do it. We would've liked that to happen, but it just wasn't feasible with the situation. So, of course, the SWAT team hits it, hey, we got a huge lab up cooking,

• 42:28Speaker 01

  but nobody's here. Like oh shit. So the group I was with, we go to, you know, we

• 42:37Jocko Willink?

  So wait, let me catch that. So the SWAT team hits it, they find the lab and there's no people there.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yes, it's up and cooking.

• 42:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  So like I I said earlier, I said, if they run, they're probably going to go to this other gentleman's house. So we go to that house and we hear some noise and some scurrying in the house and we hear like a lady like calling for help. So we're like, damn, they're in there. So ignorance and circumstances, we enter the house and they're all trying to hide in this back bedroom. Got one guy's halfway up the chimney. The guy's lying in bed with his muddy boots and everything. I was like, he's sleeping and laying on the couch and I'm like,

• 43:25Speaker 01

  really, guys, we're gonna fall for this. So we we brought him back over to the lab and, you know, processed the lab and ended up being a nice sized lab. I think they had like 50 pounds of methamphetamine solution. And then it later led to they end up cooperating and then hit um another big lab in South Phoenix and that individual, he also was running labs in um Riverside, California, too. So he was wanted, you know, by Riverside Sheriff and this and that. We end up hitting them and getting a um a big lab at that time and we make entry with the SWAT team and this guy was living on a horse property. He had horses and stuff.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  Wait, where was this? This guy was in Phoenix as well?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  Phoenix area?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, South Phoenix, actually.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  So this guy was a legit, like he had horses and a ranch of some kind?

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:21Jocko Willink?

  This guy was doing well.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  And had a ranch in um Riverside, too.

• 44:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz I kind of get the impression, you know, when you talk about like the mom and pop labs, that a lot of people are just kind of getting away with what they can and then they eventually get busted.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're broke.

• 44:34Jocko Willink?

  But occasionally you have somebody that

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Broke as a joke. And these people, they they're in it for making the money. And um, yeah, it's um, this guy who we hit um in South Phoenix, he actually taught the other people in the other lab how to cook. So yeah, we we go in there and he's in the back cooking and he's cooking with a 22 liter flask. A big triple neck flask. It's a good sized flask, about size of a basketball, though bigger. So when the SWAT team goes in, he takes the flask and smashes on the ground. You know, but of course you take the samples there, you know, he's not gonna, you know, hit, we figure out what's in there and.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  So yeah, and he, you know, we found some, you know, methamphetamine in the house and everything. We're like, what's this? Oh, that is feed for the horses. And that's not feed for the damn horses. Come on.

• 45:27Jocko Willink?

  What happens to these guys? You go, then you you wrap them up? They immediately go to jail?

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Wrap him up, he went to jail, you know, they did some search warrants on his place in Riverside in California, and then we indicted him and, you know, put him in prison for a while.

• 45:44Jocko Willink?

  How long's a while?

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Like this guy, his name was Thomas Dejarro Sanchez. I think he got like 10 years.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  So he's probably out, but he probably listening to this right now.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably, perhaps, you know, you know, but this lab, oh, hell, this is back in, phew, this one, um, I think 99? So, for sure.

• 46:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's back out. You know, I forgot to ask you this. When you got in that shooting back when you were with the Detroit, what, did you have any lessons learned from that about the way it happened, about what you, what, how your reaction was? Did you do something well? Did you do something bad? Did you feel like your training worked? Did you feel like your training didn't work? Like, how how was that experience?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  That, yes, that's a very good question. With all the training we had, you know, the different scenarios and different barricaded gun people, I I just reacted with my training. You know, I saw the muzzle flash, I knew it was gunfire, and, you know, I just did what I had to do to neutralize, you know, to stop the threat.

• 46:47Jocko Willink?

  So the training you had worked?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  100%. You know, I didn't even think, you know, I didn't even, don't even remember looking through my sights. I know I did. You know, you get that perceptual narrowing, you know, when you're in a fight or flight or a gunfight. You know, where your eyesight increases, your hearing decreases, you start. So you see five motor skills.

• 47:07Jocko Willink?

  So you felt all that stuff?

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:09Jocko Willink?

  What about the, you, you were the passenger and another guy was driving?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:14Jocko Willink?

  Did he get hit or was he okay?

• 47:15Speaker 01

  No, he was okay. He, um, he fired like four or five shots and I had my MP5 on full automatic and I just fired bursts until the weapon ran dry.

• 47:26Jocko Willink?

  Damn, going full auto, huh?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, hey, um, I'm gonna end this as quick as possible.

• 47:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  You know, you, people get all these, you know, lucky shots, you know, you're chasing these, you know, perpetrators, whatever, and they're running from you and, and they take the gun and shoot it over their head and hit you, you know, dead between the eyes.

• 47:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  What about doing all these, you know, doing all these hits over the years with the DEA down in the Phoenix area? You know, you, you obviously are starting to pack away some good, some good, you know, methodologies and, and thought processes as you're going to do these things. Like, what were your big takeaways a- a- as you, as you developed as a, you know, as a agent?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I always was very tactically proficient and I think one of my fortays and strong points as an agent was being able to deal with people. And that's what I, I suggest that anybody who gets in federal law enforcement, I would advise them to be a local law enforcement officer first, but you get to learn the job. You get to learn how to deal with people. And I happen to be very good at dealing with informants and I could work informants well.

• 48:41Jocko Willink?

  What, what do you think was that? Wha- what made you good at it?

• 48:46Speaker 01

  One, I think my street smarts, growing up in Detroit, you know, and being able to talk the lingo and look the part, you know, in life, unfortunately, a lot of times, when you first go in a situation, especially criminals, they're gonna size you up. They're gonna say, does this individual look like they know what they're doing? Can I trust this person? You know, but a lot of times, these people that are working for us, they're risking their life, and they have to feel confident that you're gonna do your best to protect them. And I also learned, never promise somebody something you can't deliver. You know, don't promise them, well, you know, you work a couple of weeks and you get a couple, you know, I can make all your charges go away. It's not up to, it's not up to the agents.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  You know, you have to bring their cooperation, attention to the prosecutor, which then brings it to the judge, and, you know, those decisions are made then. And also, treat people like a peep, a person. You know, you don't have to start, you know, talking down to somebody. You know, I'm the big bad fed, and you know, you're just the lowly peon drug dealer. You don't do that. You know, I start off giving everybody respect. Now, if you wanna go sideways, we'll go sideways, but I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubts at first. You know, and informants too, you gotta be careful, you know, they're informants, they're, they're criminals.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  You know, you know that they can turn their back on you too. So you gotta, you know, you never can trust them 100%. You do your best and, you know, and you lay, you know, lay the ground rules and everything, and then, you know, you manage your informants, you know, going on from there, but, you know, being a, you know, having a good informant, you're kinda like, you know, they're... They're confidants, you know, there's therapists, everything else. You know, if your phone's gonna be ringing in the middle of the night, your foreman's gonna wanna talk to you, you know.

• 50:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause his girlfriend left him.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  He left him, or he's, they're doing this, you know, they're, you know, he's thinking about making a bet, you know. You need to answer those calls, and a lot of people don't like to do that, but if you want to do well at the job at a high level, that's kinda things you have to do. You gotta put the work in.

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  How many sources would you be running at a time, like how many people would you be working with, how many informants?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Um, usually I kept anywhere from three to five informants at any one given time.

• 51:16Jocko Willink?

  What, what is the trajectory of their lives look like? I mean, do they, do they end up, they just do that until they eventually get caught and killed? Do they do it until they eventually, you know, do something that sends them to jail? Do they ever get out of that life?

• 51:32Speaker 01

  It's kind of a mixture, you know, some do it, you know, they think they're slick and they're gonna play both sides until they get caught, then go to prison, you know, some get killed, you know, they get found out, you know, we do everything we can to protect their identity, and some do it for a while, or some are, you know, trying to help their legal situation, or a family member's situation, or just doing it for money. And, you know, eventually move on and get on with their lives, and get back into some normalcy of life, you know, and when I was a D agent and a police officer, you know, I didn't gauge my success on how many people I arrested and this and that.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  I gauge my success on how many people did I help to get their life together? You know, just because a person, you know, gets caught up in drugs, or some crime activities, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person, you know, they made some bad decisions. So I gauge my success mostly on, hey, how many people this year did I help?

• 52:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, you must start to really understand the way people operate too, especially dealing with all these people and you're hearing from them all the time, like the insight that you get into interacting with people. Are they, they're showing up there, most of them though, they, do they, most of the informants have some kind of criminal background and that's how they end up in this situation?

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Most of them do, yes.

• 52:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  So, at what point, or where were you when September 11th happened?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  I was in my house in Phoenix getting ready to go to the gym. Cause I never knew how long I was going to work, so I always been into working out and keep myself fit. So I'd get up and work out before work and I'm sitting there watching the news and when the first plane hit. Said a small plane just hit the World Trade Center. So then of course we're all, you know, people were glued to the TV. Then the second plane hit and they're like, this is not a small plane and, you know, of course, all the chaos and everything that went on that day. I ended up going to the gym and, you know, work, you know, hey, you know, we don't know where we're going to get hit from next, you know, so it's all hands on deck and, you know,

• 53:48Speaker 01

  you know, you had the plane hit the Pentagon and our DEA headquarters is right across the expressway from there. So people who had offices on that side saw the plane smash into the Pentagon and so it's, things were in chaos for a minute, to say the least.

• 54:03Jocko Willink?

  And did they, did they start to think about how to utilize the DEA for immediately trying to assist like the national effort?

• 54:14Jocko Willink?

  Did it change, I'm saying, I guess I'm asking, did it change like your immediate life, your immediate job, or was it, okay, well, we still got to, you know, arrest people that are making meth, so you're going to continue doing that? Or was it some kind of change?

• 54:28Speaker 01

  What kind of happened, one of the changes that happened pretty fast was we, when we debrief an informant, there's different things you have to put in there, like different blocks, you know, what is the drug related activity they have known right now? What is the non-drug related activity? And then they started a terrorist related activity. Did you know, you know, any people doing terrorist related activities? And being in the Klan lab scene.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  So a lot of the individuals who sold and made money out of the ephedrine and pseudoephedrine were Middle Eastern individuals. So, of course, you know, they were like, you know, you know, get all your Middle Eastern informants and see if they have any terrorist activity. And we had a lot. DEA had a lot of Middle, you know, with the drugs and the pseudoephedrine. So FBI then wanted to come over and started to brief in our informants, you know, about terrorist related activities.

• 55:29Jocko Willink?

  Was there much of a connection or was it more of them just trying to make money?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Um, there were some, you know, there were some, you know, some were, you know, sending money back and things like that. And, you know, when the military first went over to Afghanistan, you know, we had some intel, but we didn't know, you know, other, you know, bin Laden had his training facilities over there. But, yeah, when the US military went over there, they shortly realized that the Taliban and those insurgent groups were making their money for their legal terror activities by the sale and reduction of heroin. And that's one of the first questions I get, why is DEA, why was DEA over in Afghanistan? So, you know, so the military, they knew they were not subject matter experts on that.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  So that's when they reached out to the DEA, hey, guys, gals, we need help here.

• 56:21Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  And we didn't have a kind of tactical team that was up to speed to do this at the time. Years prior to that, we had an operation called Operation Snow Cap, where we were in Colombia and other cocaine manufacturing destinations and hitting Coca Labs, you know, with, you know, partner forces and this and that. So DEA had to start up a team. So they used some of the individuals that worked in Snow Cap and developed this FAST team, this Foreign Deploying Advisory and Support Team, to help the military and mentor

• 57:04Speaker 01

  our partner force over there, because we really don't have over there. You know, any like criminal authority. So in the Afghans, they were behind the times. So we went over, you know, the military, you know, they got plenty of trigger pullers. And of course, we can pull triggers too. But they went for expertise on investigations. How do we handle these? How do we process these labs? Because in Afghanistan, even though heroin production is crazy, the penalties for getting caught manufacturing drugs over there are very, very severe. And we can actually take somebody off the battlefield a lot longer. You know, for drug related things than just for say, you know, you

• 57:46Speaker 01

  you hem somebody up for tactical questioning and then they're back directly on the battlefield. You know, but the issue is, you know, we're working with US and coalition special ops teams over there. Because most of these labs are well behind enemy lines and that's their money. You know, so they're gonna fight like hell to keep them. So you have to be up to speed to run with these, you know, these special ops guys. You know, so at first they just had a, you know, put a solicitation out. Hey, you know, um,

• 58:19Speaker 01

  this is what the mission's gonna be. We need some volunteers. You know, some of the guys been that, done that in the past and maybe we're special ops guys, but at the current time, maybe they weren't in the best shape. And they would get over there and we're having problems keeping up.

• 58:34Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  So that's when our FAST team instituted a selection process. And that selection process, it took various areas of selections from different special ops teams and put a selection together. You know.

• 58:50Jocko Willink?

  And at what point did you hear about that? And at what point did you volunteer for it?

• 58:58Speaker 01

  I knew the FAST team was going on. You know, I started hearing rumbles about it in 2005 timeframe. But the problem is in the field. The basic agents didn't really know what was going on with this FAST team. I had a buddy that went to the FAST team. He was Marine Corps officer and I was pushing on with my career. And I've always, no matter what I've done, I've tried to go to the highest level, whatever I did in life. So, you know, I was just kind of like, you know, sitting around and like, hey, you know, I wonder what this FAST team's doing.

• 59:39Jocko Willink?

  Were you still in Phoenix at this time?

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Yes, I was.

• 59:41Jocko Willink?

  So you were in Phoenix from like 1998, 1997, 1998, all so?

• 59:49Speaker 01

  1997 until I actually got selected on the FAST team in October 2009.

• 1:00:00Jocko Willink?

  So you there for a while. So you have over 10 years experience as a DEA agent on the ground doing? And was that whole 10 years, was that all that time doing the meth lab stuff?

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  The first four years and then I went on to a conspiracy group where we were higher level traffickers. I worked on a task force with a lot of local officers.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  When you're, what's the conspiracy group, Paul? I mean, it sounds cool. We know that, right?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. A lot of things, it sounds real cool, you know? And we have, you know, real cool acronyms and everything else, you know? You're going after mid-level to higher level dealers and?

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  Still meth mostly? Or are they dealing everything?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Meth, cocaine, marijuana.

• 1:00:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Heroin. So you had a mixture. So Phoenix is kind of a weird animal. You're kind of close to the border. So it's a transshipment point. So a lot of the drugs are coming in, coming up from the southwest border into cities like Tucson and Phoenix. And they're staged there. They only stay there a short period of time. And those drugs are picked up and sent out to the East Coast. You've got to be like on your game to get stuff, you know, because, you know, you might have a stash house loaded up one day and it's gone the next.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  So you had to really be on your game, you know, and move fast to do these things.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  So, you know, I worked in a combination of different groups and I called my buddy and I'm like, "Hey, what the hell are you guys doing there? Are you guys just doing training or are you guys going out and doing missions?" He goes, "Joe, you know, we're, you know, working with some of the best units in the world."

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  This is when you're asking when your buddies about FASTCOM?

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  You know, "What are you guys doing? You know, we're training, working with some of the best units in the wor- world. You know, we're doing things what you would think DEA would be doing. You know, we're doing this high level stuff." And at the time, every year, they would put out a solicitation for so- for to go through the FAST selection. And you needed to be at least GS 12, so that usually takes about three to four years to get to a GS level 12. And they wanted people who had experience of how to be a DEA agent. So, and then you put in for the selection and then if you get picked, you know, you go through tryouts and I was 39 when I put in for selection.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  You know, as we get older, we don't recover as fast as we once did and...

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  Some people.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Your potential, your, your, your potential for injury sometimes increases. So, I knew I wouldn't quit anything. I was just worried about my old body, you know, holding up. I got a lot of miles out of it, you know, 50,000 miles is kind of up and, you know, there's a lot of different swimming and different testing and different things and, you know, so I started training and...

• 1:03:02Jocko Willink?

  And you're still doing your job, working the conspiracy stuff?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Uh, this time I was on a task force group, a west side task.

• 1:03:08Jocko Willink?

  And what's the task force group do?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Um, we were task force on the west side of the city and we worked with, um, various west side police departments. And they were all sworn in as federal task force agents. So, they had the full powers like a DEA agent and you could, you know, do investigations over state lines and everything. And we were hitting a lot of like big marijuana hits, meth hits, cocaine hits. So, I was still, yes, doing my full-time job and then have to get ready and train for the selection.

• 1:03:43Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. Any good between, on the conspiracy thing, like what's the biggest people you ever rolled up when you were doing the conspiracy gig?

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  We had one case, this one group, and they were an African American group. They had people out of Detroit, Atlanta, and Los Angeles, and Phoenix. They would get their large amounts of shipments of marijuana from the Phoenix and Tucson area. Now, we're talking large amounts, I'm talking, they would buy two, three thousand pounds of marijuana at a time. And we had- From Mexico? Yes. Well, they buy it in Phoenix, the marijuana came out from Mexico. And of course, you buy it in, you know, southwest, it's a lot cheaper than you bring it out east,

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  and you can sell it for almost double the price. So, there's a lot of money involved. And we have an informant, you know, these guys are rich, and they have this huge place in this gated community in Scottsdale, and all these truckers that are driving for them and everything. So, it's full on? You know- It's a full-on enterprise? Full-on enterprise, you know, but you, you gotta be kinda suspect a little bit. You're like, yeah, this is a little far-fetched, you know? Um, so, the informant says, okay, they're meeting, um, they're gonna meet their, um, source of supply, and they're gonna do a deal, and I'm gonna be at the house. So, like, okay, we set up, um, we have a general area where we think their nice house is.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, we got some people set up in that vicinity, and they go into this residence in Phoenix, and they pull a van in the garage. We're like, okay, this looks good. So, the van leaves the garage, and the informant says, okay, they picked up. So, sure as shit, they're following the van, and we take it to this gated community in Scottsdale.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  You gotta, you know, get keyed in and buzzed in and everything and we um sit on the house and get it identified where they're at and see people coming and going and they follow them out and sure as shit, they go to a warehouse too, or there's a semi truck. We're like, oh, it's on and popping now. So we get enough for um a search warrant for the house and the warehouse and hit it and get pretty good, large amount of marijuana. And during this time, one of the, we followed one of the guys and to the airport and, you know, we're kind of short numbers, we got people all over the place and I'm by myself

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  following this guy. And it's very hard to do surveillance by yourself without getting burnt, you know, without them seeing you. And I don't know how I pulled it off, but I did. So

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  What are you wearing?

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Just street clothes.

• 1:06:44Jocko Willink?

  Just street clothes. Man, I did some of those surveillance and counter surveillance and like dressed up and, you know, trying to look like a bum and this and that. Man, I, I was horrible at it. I was like the worst, like, I was like the worst undercover person ever. I don't know. It's just, it seems like you would have a similar issue since you're uh pretty jacked, you know, you just stand out in a crowd.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Yes, you know, so you just kind of, you know,

• 1:07:10Jocko Willink?

  If you were following me, I'm 100% gonna know. 100%. Like, there's no, you're not gonna sneak around, follow me, it's not happening.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and foot surveillance is very hard, you know, so you're, you're in a vehicle, you're trying to stay far back as you can and everything. Somehow I pulled it off and as the person got out of, let, they let the person out to go into the terminal, I somehow got one hand and snapped a photo of him. I don't know how I pulled it off, but I did. And that happened to be the main guy. So we end up getting the, I get him getting a picture of him and we didn't know, you know, who he was at the time or not, and he was flying back to LA. You know, so we hit it and, you know, get some people in custody and then get the person identified who dropped him off. And she had some prior criminal history.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  So we knew this case was, you know, bigger and tied into all these states and everything. So I told my partner, I said, hey, we're gonna go visit this lady um tomorrow and we're gonna bluff her.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  And we're gonna say, hey, you know, you know, we got you taking this person, yada, yada, yada. You know, and you're helped in the furtherance of this conspiracy to their drug trafficking organization. You have some criminal history in the past, you know. You know, we're gonna potentially look at indicting you and maybe seize in your vehicle. And my partner at the time, she goes, it'll never work. I said, watch.

• 1:08:35Jocko Willink?

  You're just trying to get her to roll.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Just get her to roll. I said, watch. So we knock on her door.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  So, so you're wearing plain clothes?

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Plain clothes, you got like a badge around the neck and a chain, you know, kind of like TV and this.

• 1:08:49Jocko Willink?

  You wear a t-shirt and a pair of jeans?

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  T-shirt, pair of jeans.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  You wanna look as unintimidating as possible? Do you wanna look intimidating? Like, what's your, what's your, like, what's your character? What character you're going into?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Just kind of, this kind of low key, intimidating enough where they know you're, you know, federal law enforcement. You know, you're not playing around, but you know, you're trying to. You also learn you gotta build rapport with these people too. You know, to try to get some common interest and my partner at the time.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Your partner was naysaying this, saying it'll never work?

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  She's like, I don't think this will work, Joe. She was a newer agent. And I said, just watch. I said, watch, Kim. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We got like a 50/50 here. Let's give it a try.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  And you don't worry that you're gonna give away the fact that you're on to them?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  You know, at this point, you know, we had, you know, a significant amount of people in custody.

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so they're, they know you're on to them?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  You know, they know we're on to them. At what extent, they don't know. You know, but I tell people too, you can't make cases sitting behind your deck, desk all the time. You gotta get out there and shake the bush. So she's kind of naysaying me and this person ended up being a topless dancer. One of the gentlemen clubs in Phoenix where there's a lot of the, the Mexican sources go hang out there. And a lot of the people from out of town come in there to find sources. And this person, this informant, she was known to date a lot of these out of town drug dealers. And she would hook them up with the sources of supply.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  So we go talk to her and knocking a door and you can tell by her face, she's like, oh shit. And we just lay it out and I said, this is what can happen to you. This is, okay, I'll cooperate. What do you want to know?

• 1:10:41Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  So we started working with her.

• 1:10:44Jocko Willink?

  Kim was wrong.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Kim was wrong, yes. You know, so, you know, I guess you need to get lucky sometimes and I got lucky then. Um, so we ended up using her and going back and they kept coming to town, but of course they moved their operation to another spot and then we were able to investigate and look at all these other seizures that happened in different states and tie them all together to these people. You know, interviewing, actually interviewing the truck drivers, got their sources of supply, you know, pulled receipts from hotels and plane things at different times when they

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  were supposed to do these deals and were able to tie everything together. And some of these people, we had never caught them red-handed with drugs, but just with testimony by the informants, putting the things together by pulling receipts, we ended up hammering this group, um, and getting them all charged and indicted when a lot of these other groups couldn't do it. And I actually helped my partner get her GS-13, because at DEA, our kind of journeyman level is GS-13. And you have to do so many things, you know, you have to have, you know, these complicated cases and, or did a wiretap or did some undercover.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  So I actually helped Kim get her 13 and I was already on the FAST team when they went and did the takedown, but they said, just to see these people's faces is like, oh shit, you got all this on me? Oh crap. And we used her to do, um, quite a bit of other good cases too.

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever do any undercover work?

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I did some.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  What was that like?

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  And everybody thinks it's intense. Everybody thinks that you need to look like a drug addict doing undercover. Now, kind of the contrary, like at DEA, we're dealing with people who are in to make money. So a lot of these people look like business people. And it's kind of as long as you talk to talk, you know, you're all right. So undercover, I reverse chemicals and equipment to make meth. Undercover, I bought methamphetamine in larger amounts. I bought heroin. And then there's an individual, which a lot of people have heard their name before. They used to be a famous mob hitman, Sammy the Bull Gravano.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  He was out in Phoenix in witness protection, but still doing bad activities. So they actually put me undercover. He actually had this group of kids out there. They were into MMA and they were selling ecstasy and steroids. And this group would go around and they would beat up, like they would pick up minorities and jump them like five on one. Kind of like a 1%er motorcycle gang thing. And they put me in there to buy steroids from these kids. So I ended up buying steroids from these kids. And it later led to Sammy the Bull getting into additional legal problems.

• 1:13:56Jocko Willink?

  Well, where's he at right now?

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  I'm not sure where he's at the moment.

• 1:14:01Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy. When you're doing these undercover ones that you're talking about, are you staying undercover for a long period of time? Or are you basically going undercover for two hours to go meet these guys, buy some shit and then roll out? Did you ever do these guys that it seems like they're going undercover for extended periods of time?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  That's called like a deep cover operation.

• 1:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Those don't happen that much anymore.

• 1:14:23Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  You know, there's a lot of risk involved in that. You know, so, you know, there was some, like, some of these pseudo cases where like I played a role for like months at a time. But a lot of it was done over the phone and stuff. But most of them is like, you know, you're meeting with the guy, you know, you know, if you have this hour or two, you know, you're in the undercover role. And then you're moving on to the next thing, you know? And the biggest thing where people think is if, you know, you're undercover and a suspect, are you the police? You're supposed to tell them, yes, I am. You don't have to tell them the truth.

• 1:15:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's not true.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  No, that's not true. And when you're interviewing people, you don't have to tell them the truth either. You know, you're interviewing a couple of people and hey.

• 1:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Like when you're like you and Kim went to talk to that girl, you told her you had all this information.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Yes, or you arrested a couple of people and hey, your buddy's in the next room just spilling his guts on you saying it's your dope and your gun. This is no, no, no, no, it's his, you know, and they think you need to tell the truth and that too, you know, you can. In those circumstances, you don't have to necessarily tell the truth.

• 1:15:28Jocko Willink?

  Did you do a lot of that interrogation type stuff?

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Did you get trained to do that? Did you send you did they send you through training or was it just what you learned over the years?

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  In the academy, you learn the basics of it and there's different schools like the Reed School and everything. I never went to a formal school. Most of that I got was on the job training. You know, I got with some, you know, agents and some local police that were good at it and just picked up and learned. You know, hey, this seems to work. This doesn't work. You know, so I just, like I said, I had kind of a knack at getting people to talk and also, like I said, good with informants.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  All right. So after you got done with that conspiracy thing, what was the next thing you had?

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  The West Side Task Force.

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  And the West Side Task Force, that's when you're working with the, the regular police from Phoenix. And you're all working together to try and do good.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Do good. Yes. You know, and people don't realize that without the local law enforcement, we can't do our job. You know, the locals, they know the area, they have the local connects and everything. And most of the DEA groups have local law enforcement's officers sworn in as task force agents in the groups. You know, because we can't do the, do the job by ourselves. And that kind of helped me, me working at a local law enforcement agency first too. I kind of. Had respect and street cred from a lot of the local officers. And I didn't think I was this big, bad, high, you know, federal agent and you're just this lowly P on local law enforcement officer. You know, I, I respected them.

• 1:17:08Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. And so what are you guys doing? You guys going after like different levels of drug dealers? Or what's, what's, what makes that West Side Task Force di- different than just regular DEA?

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  It was, um, we focused on the west side.

• 1:17:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  In the west, the west area suburbs.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  And is it, is it the fact that you're working with them closely and interoperability and exchanging information? That gives you a better chance of catching bad guys?

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yes, and it also bolsters our numbers too. And we actually, in this West Side Task Force, we actually worked, um, in one of the West Side Police Agency's, um, off-site locations for the Glendale Police Department in Arizona. So we're actually, you know, you're with them every day, day in, day out.

• 1:17:54Jocko Willink?

  So same thing, you're doing investigations, but you're utilizing the local cops to help you do the investigations?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  Is that right?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So you're doing that and then I kind of pulled you back in the story a little bit, but you, but then you, you started hearing about the FAST Company and what you could do, what that's going to look like. But you're 39 years old, you've got some mileage on.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:19Jocko Willink?

  And so you're trying to get in shape for that. How'd you find out you got picked up or what was the application process like?

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  Well, you know, you had to fill out this, you know, fill out this questionnaire, you know, I've been on the job, you know, this many years. And this is kind of the background of things I did on the job and you have to get your, uh, concurrence from your supervisor and, and then the concurrence from the special agent in charge, whatever division you're in and you submit it. And if you're qualified, your name is picked to go to selection. So they set a date for selection and every, they, they give you a list of, you know, hey, these are some of the events you're going to have to do. Kind of give you outline how to train for them. You know, you have to do our standard DEA PT test. Um, which is no great shake.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  You know, you have to do the shooting. Um, pistol and long rifle, but you have to score higher. Um, ruck marches, um, with, you know, with weight on you during a certain time. A distance run. And you know, and all these different thinking and, you know, kind of thinking on your feet and leadership, different tasks and things. And you actually have to, we use, actually use this company. That, um, the, before. A lot of people in the military go through different special ops selections. They have to take this test online, which is kind of like a psychological and like an IQ test.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  And you got to answer these questions and then they can pretty much figure out if a person's going to make it or not through how you do these things.

• 1:19:59Jocko Willink?

  Somebody needs to tell the damn SEAL teams about that. Cause we still have an 80% attrition rate after however many years it's been 60 years or actually no, it's been freaking 70, 80 years of doing that training and putting people through that training. We still can't figure out who's going to make it.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:20:15Jocko Willink?

  They freaking quit.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we do too, you know, so, and I think we started with, um. I think there was close to 40 of us in our selection and only 11 made it through to the end.

• 1:20:29Jocko Willink?

  Where's the selection take place? Quantico?

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  The first part, yes. The first week it takes part in Quantico all in-house. It's kind of like.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  Is it a beat down?

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. It's kind of like we call it like our hell week.

• 1:20:42Jocko Willink?

  And who's running it?

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Is it?

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  Agents from FAST.

• 1:20:47Jocko Willink?

  And FAST, how long has FAST been around for? Was it created after September 11?

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Yes, after September 11th, yes.

• 1:20:54Jocko Willink?

  But you said there was a previous like unit that was snow cap?

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Yes, that was prior to that.

• 1:20:59Jocko Willink?

  So they took maybe some old snow cap people, brought them back, see if they could help out, something like that?

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Yes, how to, you know, get them, get the unit organized and the training and logistics and, you know, weaponry, you know, but you're going overseas fighting a war, so you're using weapons and weapon systems the average DEA agent doesn't never use in their career. You know, you're using, you know, belt fed, crew served weapons, you know, grenade launchers, um, you know, uh, handheld mortars, Carl Gustaf rockets, you know, laws, you know, all kind of crap, you know, so, you know, you're doing all this stuff. So you, you know, you, they really, you know, invest in you and like once, if you make it through training, you make it through selection

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  and you get picked up on a fast team, you have to at least commit to doing three years. Because they're putting all this time and effort and training into you, um, so.

• 1:21:56Jocko Willink?

  What made most people quit? How, how long was it? How long was the selection process?

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  The first hell week was like a week and you had tier one events, they were their pass fail. And if you fail one event, you're gone. And then we had tier two events where.

• 1:22:13Jocko Willink?

  Tier one event would be a forced ruck march?

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Forced ruck march.

• 1:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Nine miles, here's the time.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, here's the time, um, a distance run was like a five mile run, um, our PT test, um, shooting test, things of that nature, uh, a basic swim qual.

• 1:22:33Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  And then the tier two were like this, you know, different other events. And if you failed one tier two, you were put on probation. And then if you failed another one, you could get removed. We also had peer evals throughout too. Because we had learned.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Life lessons, you know, some people can just fly through all the physical activity things and some people had a lot of military experience, but they can't play well with others. So you're living in confined spaces, you know, and you're just living with an asshole.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  And we didn't have time for that, so you could actually get peered out, too. So.

• 1:23:10Jocko Willink?

  So are people quitting this selection, or are they just not passing the standards?

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  About little, about half of both.

• 1:23:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  You know, you know, and when you go through there, they're telling you what you're getting into, you know, this is what you're getting into, and this unit is not for everybody. And just because it may not be for you, it doesn't mean that you're a bad agent, that you can't do your normal job, but this is what you're getting into, and it's a whole, it's a total volunteer unit. So you get people that are going through slack, and you're just getting your dick knocked into dirt. And, you know, and if it was just, you know, you did, every day you did like a tier one event, you'd be fine, but you're also getting hazed in between, you know, and carrying the logs and the inflatable boats and, you know, doing CrossFit workouts and, you know.

• 1:24:01Jocko Willink?

  And you're thirty-nine years old.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Thirty-nine years old, you're not getting much sleep, but they're feeding you well.

• 1:24:05Jocko Willink?

  What was the average age of the rest of the class?

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  I would say low thir- low thirties.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  Low thirties. Okay.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  So, you know.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  Did you have trouble with anything?

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  The water stuff.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  I've always.

• 1:24:21Jocko Willink?

  You look like you might be a little bit of a sinker.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  And I, and I learned that muscle does not float.

• 1:24:27Jocko Willink?

  That's why I say that, man. Yeah, we, we learned that in the SEAL teams, like you get these big jacked guys that are not only big and jacked, also ripped, and that means they don't have a lot of body fat.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  And that, that leanness doesn't help either.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, leanness doesn't help either, yeah.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  You know, so I grew up with a swimming pool, and we had a cottage on the lake in Michigan, so obviously, I would say I was fairly competent in water, but just, and I had to learn in the pool, you have to relax. The more you get yourself worked out, you get oxygen deprived, and then you're screwed. So, you know, for treading water for long periods of time, and, you know, swimming in BDUs and boots and everything, you have to stay calm.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  You know, we didn't quite do the 50 meter underwater swim like you got. We did a 25, you know, in BDUs and to me, you know, it's like, you know, they kind of tell you to go deep and, you know, and stroke and glide and, you know, I'm doing all that. And then when you get close to the wall, it's like I'm starting to do the panic swim.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  I'm screwing myself, you know, you know, so.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, relax and glide. That's easier said than done in many.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Exactly, you know, and keeping your breathing controlled and everything, you know, so after I did enough to pass with the swimming. So afterwards, um, when I got selected on the fast team, the FBI had a pool over there. So I'd go there a couple of times a week and just go in the water and just swim and get better at it. So.

• 1:26:02Jocko Willink?

  So how long was the whole selection process?

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  You know, the first week is like the hell week and then you do a training phase next. And that's usually a couple of months. And that's usually run by ODA Green Beret Team or with us, it was going to be Naval Special Warfare with the SEALs. And I was the first group that was done by the SEALs. And sometimes the first part goes and then you go right into your training phase. And, um.

• 1:26:38Jocko Willink?

  You mean the first part goes.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  The hell week.

• 1:26:40Jocko Willink?

  The little hell week.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  The hell week and then you go.

• 1:26:41Jocko Willink?

  You get a bunch of people to quit.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Yes. And then you go right into your training phase, but we got to have a break because we were going to use Navy Special Warfare and weren't going to be ready for a couple of months. So we got to go home and heal up and lick your wounds a little bit. You know, I pretty much had a blister in every part of my foot. I lost every toenail on both feet. And at the time, my girlfriend picked me up from the airport after the hell week and she's like. What the hell happened to you? Of course, I was beat to shit. Had to go to the ER room the next day as my foot was infected. And I'm trying to tell them what happened. They're looking at me like, I don't, this doesn't sound right.

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  You volunteered for this?

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  You volunteered for this? And just because you make it through everything, say, the hell week, still the fast cadre, they sit down and you have to be asked to go on to the second phase of training. So I made it through that and got to go home and just lick your wounds for a little bit and go back to working your regular group. And then we reported in early spring, we started selection, I think, February 2009, early spring of that year to Little Creek, Virginia, to do our second phase of training. So we're like, okay, you know, we're told this is your learning phase. This is supposed to be the gentleman's course now.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Roger, Roger that. So, you know, the SEALs had never had outside people there either. So we show up and some of the cadre and some of the people from Team Two and Ten, hey, we got a whole bunch of old BDU's for you guys. And when are you guys getting your badges? And this and that. They'd have no clue. I'm like, well, I had my badge for 12 years. And, you know, we pretty much got a lot of high speed stuff. So we're staying at the Navy Inn there in Little Creek. And so we report Zero Dark Thirty the first day and for formation of PT. And we go straight to the ocean.

• 1:28:42Jocko Willink?

  Good times, Team Two.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  In the ocean, out of the ocean, you know, sugar cookies, the whole, and I'm like,

• 1:28:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  I'm like, um, I thought this was supposed to be a gentleman course. And they were like, we were told to treat you guys like buds. I'm like, who the hell told you that?

• 1:28:58Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  You know, so, you know, got, you know, got hammered and but, you know, they kind of, you know, slacked off, you know, for a while. And, you know, he had different things, distance runs and stuff. So we spent time training there. And then we bumped over to Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, to do the land warfare part of that. And You know, it was, it was, it was very, very good training to say the least. And it was funny before we went over there. And we found out the SEALs were gonna do our second phase and other buddy who was very competent. Uh, but he was struggling in the water a little bit. I called him and I was like, did you hear who doing our second phase? He goes, yeah, the SEALs. Like, oh shit.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  And then you cut, you ended up coming out to the west coast to do some training too, cause you-

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Yes, later on. That's after I got selected on the fast team.

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so when, so when did you actually get selected?

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  October of 2009.

• 1:29:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  And just because you make it through all the training, it doesn't mean you're gonna be picked up on the fast team. Is as openings occur, they, you can get cherry pick from the list.

• 1:30:08Jocko Willink?

  Got it. Got it. So you, was there anything else, uh, about the, the initial training course? When you were a team two, you went to Fort Chaffee, you go do training out there. Are you training with a task in it? Or they just put you through training as your own entity?

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  That one, it wasn't like they were as our own entity.

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  So you had, you know, people from traded there and actually, um, uh, senior chief, um, Tony Gale was assigned to us. Do you know him?

• 1:30:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tony, he's, he's such a beast. So he's like, uh, uh, smaller than me. He's shorter than me. He looks like, uh, how do I describe this? He doesn't look like he's like a super beast, but he was faster than me and he could bench press more than me. So he was like better than me at everything and no one would ever, you know, suspect that.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  And he can go through the obstacle course pretty good too.

• 1:31:04Jocko Willink?

  He's freaking awesome. He's freaking awesome.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  And then we had a, um, master chief Hitchcock too that helped out.

• 1:31:10Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Right on. Yeah, I know both those guys.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  With things. And so, yeah, it was, um, it, it was, it was intense. And of course we would do different events. You know, but the team guys and if we did a distance run, of course, they put their distance run stud out there.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Or if we did a CrossFit workout, they put, you know, their best CrossFitter out there, out there, you know, you know, so they kind of cherry picked, you know, people. What you know, I don't blame them, you know, and you show up there. Okay, so I were doing a distance run, you couldn't wear any watch, no GPS, and we're just gonna run.

• 1:31:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:31:44Jocko Willink?

  So you guys get, did get hooked up with a little bit of extra bonus program.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wouldn't tell you how long we're running for.

• 1:31:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  You know, I've always been a bigger guy and I cut weight for that because I knew we're doing all the endurance stuff, so I was sitting around 215, 220. But we had some guys on our team that like in the 160s. You know, I can run a couple of six minute miles, but I can't run six minute miles for 10 minutes. And we had some of these little rabbits, they could do that, not, not me. You know, I'd blow through a CrossFit workout, no problem, but, you know, so we'd go on these distance runs and we wouldn't, you wouldn't know how long you were going for when you were done. It's like, you know, just do your best, you know. Okay, what's the time hack here? Well, we didn't, not telling you, you can't have a watch on, so you don't even know how fast you're going anyways.

• 1:32:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that, they were treating you like BUDs students because in BUDs you don't have a watch and it's a total pain in the ass because you never know what you're doing. The only thing you can do is just go as hard as you can because that's the best that you can do, you know?

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Well, in selection, what I, I didn't try to look too far in advance. I just took each activity for what it was. You know, and you're being beat down and on our team day, the last day of, um, hell, the kind of hell week, I was just like, hey, Joe, just take another step. Just worry about one more step and then we'll worry about the rest later. I didn't try to overwhelm myself. You know, and I read some things before, but you know, about some different selections and things and that's one of the things they said, don't overwhelm yourself.

• 1:33:14Jocko Willink?

  Good advice.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Just worry about one thing at a time. And you make it through that, well, you worry about the next thing then.

• 1:33:21Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So you get done, so did you do anything besides Chaffee? Land warfare with those guys?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  We went to Chaffee and then back to the creek. And then you would culminate, you know, you're doing FTXs throughout. And then it culminates with a final FTX where you got to hit a target over there. And you go in, you know, with Sims and everything. And they didn't have the, the, the miles gear like we had in Nyland there. And, you know, you'd do a hit and the group I was in, we had to fast rope on top of this building at night and they could be tricking, we're using our DEA pilots. And I hope they can hold a hover good. Because there was always a couple of times when guys almost were going down the rope and the rope's not over the building and, you know, I've always been a heavy guy.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  If I'm full kit or I was carrying my, I'm not stopping myself on that rope.

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  That was me too. I'm not, when I'm going, I'm going. That rope better be in the right spot because I'm going to be at the bottom of it in about two seconds and that's that.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  And it's funny, when we were doing our fast rope training at Little Creek and the towers and everything, you know, you start with the tower at first and you do your rappelling and everything and, you know, okay, just take your time, sit down, you know, and the helicopter, you know, and then grab the rope and then slowly spin yourself, just take your time. So when we go on the helicopters and first time to frill, they're like, go, go, go, hurry up, go, go, go. What happened to this take your time thing? We're like, F it, I guess we're doing it live, you know?

• 1:34:57Jocko Willink?

  So you get done with that and you said that's when you actually got selected or chosen to go to a fast, what do you call it, fast company?

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Fast team.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  Fast team. So you, you actually get selected to go to a fast team and that's in the fall of 2009?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Correct, October 2009.

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  And when you get there, are you going, do you know you're going on a deployment at a certain time?

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Well, we knew what team you were going to. We had five teams at the time, Alpha through Echo. And each team is made up of one supervisor, eight agents and one intel analyst. So I knew a team I was going on. Then once we got there, they would tell you, okay. We always had a team in Afghanistan all the time. And each deployment lasted 120 days, give or take some days. So you knew when you were going up. So.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  Once I got there, I was assigned to Delta Team, which was made up of some senior agents and with some of the newer individuals. And we were set to go to do the, our first deployment in Afghanistan was going to be the spring/summer tour of 2010. And a lot of people don't know, in Afghanistan, there's a fighting season over there. You know, it gets bad weather there, gets winter and stuff like that. So in the spring/summer, that's when all the fighting's going on, and that's when they're harvesting the opium poppy to manufacture the heroin. So that's kind of your busy time.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  So you get settled in and you do start doing your pre-deployment workup, kind of like, you know, with the military. And then we had a group come in, you may be familiar with them. They're made up of ex-Navy special warfare guys and actually some dev group guys called, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, the David Group. Okay. Right on. And they actually, we actually used your guys' system and developmental groups of combat clearing. Okay. So they actually taught us in that, and then that's when we find out before deployments,

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  you guys are going to Camp Billy Macon in Nileen, California, and you're doing land warfare with a west coast SEAL team. Right on, right on. You know, so, you know. When was that? Do you remember when that was? Yes. I started on taxis, I want to say April/May-ish of 2010. Yeah. So yeah, I was definitely still there. And SQT, you weren't there when we first got there? Yeah. You showed up at the end. Yeah, I showed up for the FTXs. Yeah, that's what I would do. And the SQT was going through there at the time. And so it was a full house there.

• 1:38:05Jocko Willink?

  How was that training?

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  It was intense, you know, it was, you know, three weeks, day and night of, you know, getting, you know, kicked in the balls, you know, and, you know, this is what I was told in the SEAL pre-deployment workup. That's usually the hardest pre-deployment block or the toughest.

• 1:38:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the land warfare, especially at that time, was no joke.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  You know, so there was a lot of buddy caring, you know, for extreme distances, you know, and, you know, and, you know, different things. But I, I tell you, you got to learn how to do, you know, land warfare drills very effectively. You got to get to know how to use your equipment, your night vision, your lasers, very well. You came out of there well-prepared, like, you know, knowing that something happens in combat, you know, but you, you know, you ran out there. You know, you're training there for worst-case scenario.

• 1:39:06Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  And so it was.

• 1:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was always my goal was that. And, you know, the goal was as crazy as a goal this may seem like. The goal was, oh, okay, um, I want to make sure that these guys, if they get into a gunfight, it's, they're going to be, it's going to seem easy compared to what they've been through in training. And I had countless guys come back to me and say, hey, this is the situation we were in, here's the gunfight we got in, here's the contact we got in, here's the scenario we were in. And they were able to handle it exquisitely because the training, the land warfare training that they'd been through and the urban training that they'd been through was so hard that the actual combat seemed easy. Now, obviously, can you simulate someone actually getting wounded or actually getting killed? No, you can't.

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  But as far as, especially from a leadership perspective, understanding how to manage all those elements on the battlefield, and then the young shooters being thinking shooters and knowing how to execute, knowing how to operate, knowing how to move themselves. It's just an awesome package that, that you have. You have this just unified team when they get done with those, with those training cycles, so.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  And it was nice because in Nyland, you know, they didn't, you know, they broke us up and just intermixed us with the team.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  You know, so they put a couple of, you know, with this, you know, fire team, that fire team. So they kind of mix you in, so it was. It was, it was very, very good training. A lot of the, the terrain and stuff there in Nylund was good because it's very similar to Afghanistan terrain too.

• 1:40:36Jocko Willink?

  I was get, we were trying, we had some, some other military entities trying to get control of that training site for us. And I remember I put together a brief for my leadership in the chain of command, my most senior leadership in the chain of command. And what I did was I took pictures of Nylund and pictures of Afghanistan, of like SEALs patrolling in Nylund and SEALs patrolling in Afghanistan. And I put together like five or six of those pictures side by side in a, in a slideshow. And I said, this is the terrain we're fighting in, and this is the terrain we're training in. We can't do any better than this right here. And we need to maintain control of this. And so, yeah, it's a, it's, it's very, it's almost uncanny how similar those two environments can look.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  And I didn't realize when we were there, you had two Army Rangers, you know, doing an exchange program to help teach the land warfare there.

• 1:41:25Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. Um, you know, those, those Rangers that we would bring out there are just outstanding guys because we as SEALs always want to have an open mind and make sure that we are understanding the tactics, the techniques, the procedures of other units. What do they know better than us? What can they teach us? What can we learn from them? And that's one of the ways that we've always done that is taking individuals from other units and bringing them to our units, especially to our instructor cadre so that we can learn more and try and get better. And those, those Rangers that work with us were just outstanding guys.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  And I say, and I feel you guys do an outstanding job of your guys' training. Um, you know, like you said, you know, knowing that, hey, there's always, you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

• 1:42:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  And let's see what other people are doing, you know, you, you put things in your toolbox and hey, I might use this again, or hey, I may never use that again, but you have a lot of tools in that toolbox.

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, indeed. So you end up going on deployment to Afghanistan, your first deployment. How's that?

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  It's intense. Every time we go to Afghanistan, things are a little different. And at the time, we were doing a lot of work with the Army ODA, the Green Berets there. And at this particular time, we were operating in Panjouay area. You know, the Panjouay, Kandar area is kind of, that area is kind of the birthplace of Taliban, where there's a lot of insurgent activity, but also a lot of heroin production going on there also. So, they broke us up into like two Z's and three Z's and put us with different units.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  And a good partner of mine, a friend of mine, Travis Brooks and myself, we were assigned with First Special Forces Group over there, ODA 1231. And they were stationed in Kans Simmons, just a little, little base outside of Kandar Airfield, which is, like, our main base was at Kandar Airfield in Afghanistan. We were living with the ODA, the First Group guys. You know, and we would bring, like I said earlier, our expertise on investigations. And we had our partner force over there, which we were mentoring. And we were living over there with the Green Berets and using our intel information, you

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  know, from the DEA and also using the military information. And we would try to pair that information, find out where the bigger drug labs were, where they were selling the chemicals and equipment to manufacture heroin. And we would not go after as the opium farmers, the poppy farmers. Got it. Because a lot of times, they were made to grow the opium. You know, the Taliban came in and they had the biggest stick at the time. Either, you know, you're growing this poppy for us, or you're getting killed. You know, so we knew they weren't reaping the benefits. So, we would try to find, you know, the people who were getting the money from this. And it's called a narco-terrorism nexus.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  And so, we would hit these bigger locations and take people off the battlefield and train the Afghans out of process and...

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  How to conduct these, you know, investigations and we were, um, what the, the Green Braves do at the time, they were doing movements to contact, which for the non, you know, military people, and I didn't know at the time because I wasn't in the military before, you know, you basically go in hot air and you pick a fight and you assess, assess the enemy, how strong they are, and you stay there for a couple of days and then a lot of times conventional forces are brought in and we were hitting areas where a lot of drug activity was going on and, and of course in Panjoway at the time, they had a lot of implanted IEDs.

• 1:45:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is 2010.

• 1:45:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:29Jocko Willink?

  So IED threat is just full on at this time.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Especially in that area, you know, and that's when they started switching over to like the homemade explosive, the HME, where the metal detector is not picking the stuff up, you know, and we had dogs and stuff, um, with the bomb guys and gals, but sometimes they couldn't smell it and a lot of times these IEDs are hidden so well, you can't see where they're at and especially at night under nods, you know, in every mission, people were getting, you know, injured with IEDs, you know, that was, you know, in a straight up fight, most often than not, they couldn't hang with us, you know, so they, they used their weapon to IED and, you know, to inflict terror on us and, um, you know, it's like,

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  okay, um, this can be my last step, I have my legs, you know, you're trying to do everything to try to, you know, mitigate it, but, you know, you still never, never know. So, you know, we're doing these movements to contact and, you know, we're most often than not hitting these labs behind enemy lab lines and that's their money, they're fighting like hell to keep it, you know, so I think that first year.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  I think I did, we did about 11 missions or so. And it was only two times I did not have to fire my gun. And I carried a belt fed weapon. At the time, I show up to FAS, of course, the listeners can't see, I'm a decent sized guy.

• 1:46:57Jocko Willink?

  What are you walking around at that time, weight wise?

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  I'm 230 ish.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  So they're giving you a belt fed weapon?

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  Yes, you're like, you're a big guy, you carry that. I've said, I'm old and it's still heavy, you know?

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Did you carry a Mark 48 or Mark 46?

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Actually a Mark 43.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh damn, okay.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  You know, old school, M60 Echo 4.

• 1:47:16Jocko Willink?

  That's freaking crazy.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  You know, and that was made, you know, for you guys, you know? You know, we had Mark 48s. But I'm a left-handed rifle shooter. I was all jacked up. I was very left eye dominant. And I shot a pistol right-handed. In that Mark 48, you eat all the brass and link. The Mark 43 was a little better. I put like a broomstick handle on the front and I moved it way back. And I could stand, stand up and I tucked my right elbow real far in. And so I wouldn't catch as much slink in brass, you know? The cyclic rate of fire on that Mark 43 is not quite as fast as the 48. But as you know, it's, it's a pretty reliable. It's a, it's a reliable weapon.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  You know, so I carried that damn thing every mission. You know, and it's nice to have because it does a lot of damage. But as an automatic gunner, the enemy knows that, so you're a target too.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  You know, and tracers work both ways.

• 1:48:15Jocko Willink?

  Yes, they do.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  And luckily at night, I got a hold of some of the IR tracers.

• 1:48:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  Which you can only see under nods and usually the enemy did not, for the most part, and they're there. They did not have night vision capabilities, so. Yeah, it was, you had to, you fire and you move your position a little bit and you fire, move your position a little bit. You know, it's not like TV, you know, that you had a box of 100 rounds on that gun and it doesn't last for five minutes. You know, if you're hammering that trigger down. It goes pretty quick, so you gotta learn to conserve your ammo and spread load ammo with other people, too.

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  Were you going out with, so you're going out with an ODA team at this time?

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:58Jocko Willink?

  And you also would have Afghan partners with you?

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:01Jocko Willink?

  So these are pretty big elements that you were going out in?

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Yes, and the ODA had their partner force, too.

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so wait, so you guys had your own partner force?

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:11Jocko Willink?

  Wow, like a DEA, an Afghan DEA?

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Yes, it's the National Interdiction Unit.

• 1:49:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  The Afghans, they were more their investigators, and then the Green Berets, or whatever group, they had their own group, too.

• 1:49:24Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Which the Green Berets liked to use the Afghan commandos, that was kind of like their special ops unit, you know, but to be quite honest with you, even like we were working with the best and brightest, it was like herding cats.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure, yeah.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, okay, you know, what's, you know, you couldn't do these advanced, like, wedge and echelon movement, it was like single file.

• 1:49:49Jocko Willink?

  No, just get in line, and we hope you can stay in line.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Get in line, and please stay in line, and stay behind the bomb, people, and this and that, you know, don't walk on, like, the path is to look like people walk the most, don't go over the foot bridges, because that's where we're gonna place the IEDs, and within 10 minutes on the ground, they're everywhere. I'm like, oh, Jesus, they're gonna get me blown up.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  How big would these elements be? So you got the ODA team, the commandos, your guys, and then the Afghan DEA, whatever you call them?

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  What are you talking, like, you got like 50 people?

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:21Jocko Willink?

  Something like that?

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  It depends how big the operation is, you know, a Green Beret ODA team, you got like 12 individuals, and their partner force probably would be around 30, you know, and fast, because we were like twosies and threesies, have two to four fast agents, and we would bring our partner force. At this particular time, like, we could cherry pick people that were the better fighters, and sometimes two to four we would take out, and to be honest, like I said, we worked the best and brightest.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  Not a high percentage of them are good fighters. And a lot of times, they weren't in great shape. So we're kind of limited what you can do, how long of an infill and exfil you can do, and how complicated a plan you could do. So, you know, it kind of hamstringed us a little bit. You know, but we went out there and got the job done. You know, when we were really hitting them hard, you know, they call it second and third order effects. You could see they were having trouble getting some more of the better munitions and stuff. When we were like this, you know, putting a smackdown on them.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  And halfway through that first, oh, the end of that first tour, we had, first group was leaving and then a group from third group came in, ODA 3116. They came in and we did a couple of missions with them. And I know you're probably familiar with this and some of the listeners is, you know, that the Afghans, they use these ICOM radios to talk with each other. And we intercept these things. You know, a lot of times, they're just talking shit on these damn things. You know, we're killing them, you know, they're married, they're dying. No, we found your ID and we're blowing it up, you know? That's what you just heard. And, you know, so we're getting at the end of our tour.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  And we're going to hit this spot called Hazi Madad in Afghanistan. And there was a little combat outpost out there, which I think the 101st Airborne was out there. And they had a Taliban hospital in the area. Of course, they were growing a lot of marijuana and poppy seed out there. But they also had several dishkas in the area, the enemy did. And that's the old, like, Russian anti-aircraft weaponry. Fifty-one. And they would harass the coalition forces, their air. So, you know, we had several tasks in this mission, you know, to find drug, you know,

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  to eradicate some of the drug activity going on and also find these dishkas. So the Rangers went in there before us and they got in a pretty good dust up and tick. Tick stands for troops in contact and they lost a couple Rangers. So we were going in a couple of days after and you're doing your pre-mission briefing and you know, we're going to get inserted with, you know, three CH forty seven, four CH forty seven helicopters. And there's a high probability we're going to lose a helicopter on infill with the DISKAS. And you know, and you're sitting there the night before, oh shit, I hope it's not me. You know, you're like in a coffin up there, you know, even most time when we flew with the,

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  the Green Brays, they used to like to use the Night Stalkers, the one sixtieth. And we would always infill and exfil with a Spectre gunship overhead. You know, but still that's not any guarantees. And so you said night before, I hope it's not me, you know, it was not our helicopter to get shot down. So we plan this up and we infill. We usually like to go in at night to use the, our, our advantage with our technology with our night vision and lasers. Cause I stated earlier, the enemy usually doesn't have that. So we like to go in at night, um, get a foothold the best we can. And then when it's light, search. And then, you know, exfil the next day or depending on how long the mission's going to last, you know,

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  a day or two or whatnot. So we fly in and we take a little incoming fire, but all four birds make it. So we've been, begin to sweep through and get a foothold. And then for individuals who are listening that were, you know, have been over there, usually they'll try to hit or probe you, the enemy over there after first, after morning prayer. And then usually they do their first hit, um, and try to feel you out. So we get in a couple of little skirmishes, um, see them plant some IEDs and you know, we're okay.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  We're moving through and we didn't find where we were at. We didn't find the DISKAS, we were finding some marijuana fields and this and that. Throughout the day, they're talking, they're like, um, we need to find a good place to set up our PKM machine guns, meaning the enemy. And you know, we blew up an IED and like I said, oh, we are killing them, you know, we're, you know, the Americans are screaming and so, you know, you know, setting up their PK. I was like, okay, you're just, you're bullshitting, whatever, screw you. So, this is in August and it's hot as hell and we didn't have any close air support at

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  the time as they got called over to some other units that were having some contact. So, we had a Predator overhead, but the Predator's wings iced over and had to land. You know, this is, you know, 115 degrees, you know, 110 degrees, but I, you know, they're flying up higher and I don't know the specifics and stuff, so, you know, we're in sporadic skirmishes, so, we were under fire, so they're like, um, we're not going to send air to pick you up because LZ is pretty, going to be pretty hot, so you're going to have to make it, we're going to have to try to make it to this combat outpost over there, which

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  was probably a couple clicks away at the time. So, we move out and we stop this little like village area and we get set up to make our final push and it was just, the villagers there just had, it just, we had a funny sense, like a spider, something's not right, you know, you know, we get in there, where are your IDs? We do not know where they are. Okay, so, okay, you're going to go out in front of us and, and you're going to take us through, you know, and you'll get to a spot, "I will not go any further, you must kill me." "Oh, I thought you didn't know where the IDs were."

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  You know, so we found a couple IDs and blew them up and so we're, determination is made, we're going to make it to the combat outpost, so at this time, we're probably about, hmm, click and a half away or so. So we're moving through, this is daylight and we're in a single file and one of our guys sees some movements in this little hut above us and he's like, tells one of the green braids, "Hey, um, I think I saw some movement." So he glasses it with his, um, scope and doesn't see anything. So we're moving out and I'm s- next to like a pony wall, like a probably a couple foot pony wall to my right of me.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you one thing, those old mud buildings, like when you're over there, those mud hut, you can explain it to people, but unless you're over there, you can't believe people still live like this. But those sta- those things do a hell of a job of stopping bullets and stuff. So we're going through and then sure as shit, they were looking for a place to set up to pee camps. We got caught in a near ambush. So I got bullets going over my head, coming to the side of me and people are calling off, we got four people hit right off the bat when the ambush opened. One being the O D A team sergeant and he's like, "I got a femoral bleed." And we're like, "Oh shit."

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  So, um, I'm rocking my forty-three and I usually carry about four hundred rounds of ammo on me and we had spread loaded some more. And so, you know, I'm trying to pick up like puffs of smoke where I think enemy fire is coming from. But I'm also trying to conserve some of my ammo too, because if we start getting overrun, I want to have some. But I always carried a pistol with me too and at least one frag grenade. Because if I could help, I wasn't, you know, I'm gonna fight to them, I'm not, I don't want to be taken alive. And so, I'm rocking through ammo and being the near ambush, you know, people are throwing hand grenades, it was that close. You know, firing law rockets and I asked one of,

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  um, our Afghan counterparts who spoke English and the, um, O D A counterparts, they carried the full length, um,

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  Two forty bravos. Sure. So it's the same round that the Mark forty-three was fired. So I'm like, go get me some ammo. So he runs out and brings me back a little link of ammo, about twenty five rounds. Like, what am I gonna do with this? So I just link it on one of my belts. And I said, okay. And um, so we're fighting and we finally get some close air support. We get a F-16 from the UAE, but they won't fire. And you know, we got people hit and we got medevac coming in. And I tell you, those medevac pilots have balls of steel. When they come, when they started coming in, RPGs were shooting up all around them. They landed those birds and got our most severely wounded people out of there.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  And um, you know, back to, you know, higher care. You know, so we finally get some close air support to suppress it a little bit. The um, one hundred and first hears all this activity going out, so they bring some of their gun trucks. But they can't get too close to us. So we're like, okay, we gotta, you know, we're getting a little break. So like, okay, we gotta make it to this combat outpost. So we did um, our vote, our version of the Mogadishu mile there. Where, you know, you're running and shooting and you're not caring about the IEDs at this time. You had to cross open field and I guess, you know, you're up, you see me, I'm down. You know, I guess if I step on some shit, I guess I'm gonna blow up.

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  And you know, they get their gun trucks out there and they start shooting, getting some press of fire. And we ended up getting to the combat outpost. And of course, we look, all look like soup sandwiches. You know, when I'm done, it was like, you guys are out there? He goes, yeah. And I learned in a combat, you know, we got stationed, you know, sat there and, you know, got some rest and yeah, we're gonna go to the chahaw and get some food. And that's when I learned, most of the bases we were staying at, unlimited food. And that's when I learned the combat outpost, just limited rations. You know, you only get, you know, what's there, a little serving, you know, so. Grace of God, everybody ended up surviving. You know, we had some, some injuries, but we ended up surviving.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  So that concluded my tour and I tell you what, I had a bad, you know, I thought it was gonna end that day. Because when you come close to running ammo, you're like, oh shit. You know, what the hell am I gonna do?

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  You know, so it was, it was quite an experience. So we kinda went out, went out in a bang that first tour.

• 2:02:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, so yeah, you definitely seemed to end that deployment with a bang. When you, when you got done with that deployment, as you looked back at it, what were some of the takeaways that you got from your experiences there?

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  Like anything I've done in life, okay, every mission I would take it, for each mission, it's like, okay, these are the things I did right in the mission, these are things I want to do the same again, and these are the things I did wrong and I never want to do again. So each thing, you know, I looked at myself critically. I've always been probably my own worst critic. These, you know, I don't want to do that ever again, you know, and this is what I want to do. And you can probably relate, and some of our listeners probably, the more you're in that environment, you never get a hundred percent used to it, but you get calmer during it. I remember my very first operation, it's old dark thirty, with the Green Berets that year,

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  and lucky we didn't get any ticks or anything, is I remember landing in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, and I guess, I said, I guess this shit's for real now. And I'm just trying to make sure I don't lose my element and night, you know, night vision is, you know, it's not the easiest to see, you know, you know, and we had some pretty decent night vision, it's like, please, please lord, let me keep up with the people in my group and not get lost out here by myself. So, you know, and I told, I was talking to my fellow, some fellow agents back in Arizona when I got back, and I was telling them stories, you know, this is what we're doing, you know. They're like, oh, you're bullshitting, there's no way you did that shit. And I'm just like, oh, yeah, we did.

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  You know, it's common, you know, everything kind of. Fell in the place where I don't know if it ever will happen again. You're at war with a country that has a drug nexus.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  You know, so as I did things as a DA agent, I never thought in a million years I'd be doing. And, you know, people would ask me, were you scared or nervous? I said, yeah, hell yeah, I was. You know, I said, but you still had a job to do. You know, there's nothing, you know, scarier feeling. You're going to land and you're, you're giving, you know, you know, five minutes, two minutes. And you hear the door gunners open up. You just, you know, you're going into a hot LZ, you know, you had to unass this bird, you know, start putting some fire down. But I explained it to it's like at the amusement park. You're riding the biggest, baddest roller coaster. You're scared, nervous. And then when you get done, it's like, okay, when we going back again? You know, I guess I got, I got that warped sense, you know?

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  I've always been kind of an adrenaline junkie, but you know, it's like, ah, are you, are you nuts? I don't know if I'm nuts, but you know, I tend to, I've always, even in football, tend to excel when the pressure was on. You know, some people fall under pressure. Some people can handle it well. Luckily for me, I always had a knack of being able to still function pretty effectively under stress.

• 2:05:31Jocko Willink?

  When you got home from that deployment, you said you went back to Arizona. Do you?

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  Oh, no, back to Quantico.

• 2:05:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you got back to Quantico.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:05:38Jocko Willink?

  So is that where you're actually living now is in Quantico since you're with the FAST team?

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Well, I'm retired now, but when I was on the FAST team, yes, I was living in the Quantico area. I was living actually in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

• 2:05:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you get back from that deployment. No one can believe what you did. You can barely believe what you did.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  I'm just lucky to make it out there with my life, you know, and have two legs still, you know?

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and then what's next?

• 2:06:04Speaker 01

  You get it, you get to decompress. Um, you know, you get to spend time with your family. You know, you've been gone a while. Um, they send the, the psychologists in and they kind of debrief you. And see if you have any issues or problems and you just get to take it easy for a while and to spend time with your family and just relax and recuperate.

• 2:06:26Jocko Willink?

  And how long is that decompression time?

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  You know, usually a month or so.

• 2:06:30Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 2:06:30Speaker 01

  You know, and so then, you know, we were scheduled to do our next tour in Afghanistan. It was going to be the late, early winter tour of two thousand and eleven. And the meantime, we started operating in the Western Hemisphere also. And we had a team out there, Echo Team, which their primary thing was to Western Hemisphere. And they were giving us language training and Spanish and everything. And, um, they were operating in Honduras, a real shithole too. Um, Roatan's real nice, so the, you know, the scuba diving destination and stuff, but the rest of the country is a disaster.

• 2:07:14Speaker 01

  A lot of vi- a lot, a lot of violence there. So Echo Team's going there and they're doing what's just called these air tracks of interest. And we were working in conjunction with Joyce, Joint Task Force Bravo over there out of Soto Cano. And what we're looking for is these small like planes, these S- thousand different things coming from source countries. You know, like cocaine, Peru and stuff like that loaded with cocaine, you know, multiple hundred kilos of coke at a time. And the, you know, they would fly in and land in these, uh, remote landing strips. And their so-called remote land was like a road or just like a clearing.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  And they would come in there at night with no, no night vision and no, um, runway lights. And just have like things lit up and land and, you know, try to safely land the plane. But the drug dealers didn't really, as long as the, the, the cocaine was okay, they didn't care if the plane got destroyed. So we were, we, we were sent to, um, they needed volunteers. So me and another guy from my team volunteered to go and help them out.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  So we go and we're in Soto Kano, we're doing training with our partner force there, getting up to speed in our tactics, how to take down a plane, land and take down a plane and all that jazz and working with Joint Task Force Bravo. And right before we got there, we were doing some training, so another team went there. They had one of these air tracks come in and they launched on it and actually got in a pretty good firefight and they actually were shooting RPGs at the, you know, the military aircraft, the 47s that were bringing them in.

• 2:09:07Speaker 01

  And the Joint Task Force Bravo guys were like, whoa, whoa, timeout. You know, we're just supposed to provide you guys a minor transportation role. We don't really want to be in combat here. So when we got there, they made a pretty good seizure and killed some, you know, decent amount of enemy. And so we get there, so they're like, and like, well, okay, we have to have so many hours of training and, you know, we have to practice this and that. And so we're practicing and doing all that, you know, waiting to go. And then DEA, we bring some of our air wing assets there, but we just have smaller vehicles, I mean, smaller aircraft, like kind of like a Super Blackhawk. You can't fit a bunch of people in there and we were, you know, you're doing assault,

• 2:09:51Speaker 01

  you want like a CH-47 or something. So they're making every excuse in the world not to fly us.

• 2:09:59Jocko Willink?

  And was this for a specific target that you were going after?

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  Um.

• 2:10:04Jocko Willink?

  Or was it just in general, they were making excuses not to fly you if a hit happened to come up?

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  In general.

• 2:10:09Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  Because they knew that it was going to be gunplay. And one of our Honduran partner forces got shot during that first operation. They had to medevac them out and they're like, if we sent you guys down there and if somebody gets hurt, we are not flying into a hot LZ to get you. So there's a lot of, lot of things. So we had two DEA aircraft there. So we had a couple good air tracks that came up. So the first one, we launch, just with our DEA birds. And the amount of fuel they can carry is not that great. So you can't be up that long. And it takes a while for us to get on these, these, um, these bogey birds and get tracking

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  them. Um, so we launched and we had, um, in each one of these helicopters, two DEA pilots. We had two fast team guys and two Honduran partner forces and these birds. And each one of these birds, we had a full-size 240 Bravo on there and stuff. But with that limited people, you're not going to land and fight a force. So at best, we hope to see where they land and hey, if we got harassed, maybe, you know, you could defend yourself and put some fire down and at least disable the aircraft. So we'd launch twice and we'd get on both tracks. But before they landed, we had to, we were running, uh, low and running low on

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  fuel. So we had to get back. So we're there and we're staying out at Puerto Castillo, near Puerto Castillo area. There's a base out there. That's where we're launching from. So they had, it was a pretty big media event. So they all knew we were the, excuse me, they all knew we were there. So one of the local drug dealers, he knows we're coming. So he leaves the country. So one of his people that works for him, one of his lieutenants is there. So he concocts this harebrained scheme. He's going to get DEA out of there. DEA's got, we're going to get them out of there. So my boss can come back.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  So we're staying in this hotel.

• 2:12:24Jocko Willink?

  So wait, so one of the local drug dealers says to himself, I'm gonna get the DA to leave.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  So the big boss man can come back.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  The big boss man, I'll have he can come back.

• 2:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  So we're staying in this hotel and there's off the water there and um there's another hotel there, the Christopher Columbus, where a lot of the military guys are staying. And they had this little airstrip there. So a lot of those fast guys would get in the morning and do PT and we'd run in the morning. So this guy's scheme was they knew what kind of our schedule that they were gonna when we got running in the morning, they're gonna go and drive up and shoot a couple of us down. So they're gonna kill a couple of DEA agents and DEA is just gonna leave.

• 2:13:08Jocko Willink?

  And wait, you got wind of this? Or this is just what their plan as you found out after the fact?

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  We end up getting wind of it because one of the partner force guys we were working from recognized a guy in town. And he said, this guy in town got recruited to help kill a couple of us. So he reports back. He reports this to his buddy and they come to us. And the two people they're gonna kill in the morning is the big guy, which is me. And then another guy on our team, Dave Clausen, the guy with the funny shorts, because he has these like colorful, long goofy shorts he would wear to run. And they're just gonna pull up alongside of us and just machine gun us down.

• 2:13:51Speaker 01

  So we get wind of this and then they get us the hell out of there, back to Soto Kano and uh, send us back to the States.

• 2:14:01Jocko Willink?

  What about the other DEA agents?

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Um, they were there like another week and they'd be left. It was just, there was, it was at the end of when we were gonna leave anyways.

• 2:14:09Jocko Willink?

  And plus it's high risk, low reward.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  High risk, low reward. JTF Bravo is not flying us, so it's.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  It was just, it was just a mess. We later went back there and had full support and ended up doing some good with some other, some of my other teams.

• 2:14:23Jocko Willink?

  How'd you feel when you were trying to get out of there, walking from the freaking hotel to the car to the airplane to get you out of there?

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  I tell you what, you know, we're staying in this hotel, Casa Alamane, House of German, by the water there and, you know, we got, I got a first floor room and it's a decent sized room. So I'm like, we had to stay in one night there. So I'm like barricaded my door. I got my Mark 43 set up, ready to go. My, you know, my car being ready to go. I'm like, okay, Lord, get me through this night. I said, if they're gonna get me, they're gonna have to, they're gonna have to work to get me, you know? So it was.

• 2:15:02Jocko Willink?

  Did you, were you able to sleep or did you stay awake all night?

• 2:15:04Speaker 01

  I didn't, I didn't sleep. You know, I had, you know, I had the, you know, the belt, you know, down the feed tray cover shut, you know, uh, you know, the weapon cocked back with the safety on, you know, ready, ready to go, you know? So they're gonna, you know, I'm gonna respond with a burst of gunfire if they try to get through here, you know? So it was like, you know, you know, I survived Afghanistan and then I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get hit in Honduras, you know? So I'm coming, coming home like, oh God, Joe, what are you, what are you getting yourself into? And you're volunteering for all this? And at night in Honduras, at night, there would be all this, you know, fully automatic AK-47 gunfire. And

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  the couple who ran the hotel.

• 2:15:51Jocko Willink?

  Is that just like celebratory fire or was there fights going on?

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  I think a little bit of both.

• 2:15:57Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  And the people who were the proprietors of the hotels, oh, they're just killing chickens. They ain't killing no damn chickens in the middle of the night.

• 2:16:04Jocko Willink?

  With AKs?

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  With AKs, yeah. Be nothing left of the chicken, you know?

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  So we roll back into the States and then we're doing our pre-deployment training, getting ready to go to my next tour in Afghanistan. So again, we're in the fighting season, you know, timeframe parameter. And, you know, working with these specialized special ops units, if you hadn't worked with them before, and you can probably know this, there's a lot of dick measuring going on. Check. It's like, who are you? What can you do if they never worked with you?

• 2:16:50Speaker 01

  You know, you know, we weren't a special ops unit, for say, you know, we're the best the DEA have, but we could shoot, move and communicate pretty good, you know, and we could hold our own. So a lot of times, it took two or three missions of going out with people, hey, these guys are pretty good, you know, they're decent. So and a lot of people thought that we go with these units and they would clear it and then we would come in after the fact. That wasn't the case. We were up there from the front, leading elements. So to get to my point, we had our FAST team before us that was there in Afghanistan.

• 2:17:30Speaker 01

  And at the time, a lot of the US special ops units were doing these field stability programs, where they were going out and living with the people out, you know, in the villages and getting them to kind of see our way of thinking and views and values and, you know, we could talk for hours just about that, but we won't get into that here today. So no US special ops units were available to do direct action missions. So the Australian commandos stepped up, hey, we'll do it. And they were operating, they can only operate in the Helmand province in Afghanistan. And that's a pretty hot insurgent area, insurgent area of activity and they have a lot of drug

• 2:18:15Speaker 01

  production goes on there. And that's where we have a big base there, Camp Lebonnik, where the Marine Corps is, Marine Corps is. So. They were working, our fast team came in and they saw we were good to go. So when we got there, we didn't have to go through all that rigmarole. We just hit the ground running. And in fact, the second op we did there, that tour, we had hit the biggest heroin lab to date at that point in time in Afghanistan. And it was just huge and they weren't used to us being in Helmand. So we weren't running into a lot of in place IEDs. Because they weren't used to us being there.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  But they were still putting up a hell of a fight. You know, you're trying to take their money and oh, hell no. Um, so we hit that huge lab, we had-

• 2:19:11Jocko Willink?

  How big is that lab? Like, like is it?

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  They're producing, um, at a time, multiple hundreds, hundred kilos of heroin at a time. And in fact, when we came in, they had a lot of it drying out. We didn't know, and you know, the rotor washer, those C H, blew a lot of it away. But there was just a ton of chemicals and equipment left. You know, then we, you know, we can't take all the stuff with us. So we, we just take representative samples, take photographs and destroy the rest of the stuff in place. So we're, you know, in the process of destroying the stuff and we're running into sporadic, you know, gunfire encounters. We got one of our, um, our partner force guys got shot in the leg.

• 2:19:59Speaker 01

  And we have to bring them to a medevac and some, a couple of Australians got shot and we're processing this lab and, um, I tell you, the, the Australian commandos, they're they're a very, very effective unit, very good. You know, I kind of put them on par to like maybe our army Rangers and they roll in pretty heavy when we roll in too. They will, um, deploy snipers in there first to set up and if we're rolling heavy, they'll bring a whole mortar company and everything too. So we um.

• 2:20:39Jocko Willink?

  And that's who you started working with and they were being guided by the Aussies?

• 2:20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were being guided by the Australians, Australian Commandos. That's who our partner force was and it's funny because like we'd be talking like this and you can kind of understand the Aussies. They have different slang words and stuff, but under stress and under firefight, you can understand what Taylor's saying. You're like, can you 10-9 that last please? Okay, in my very best English accent, this is what we want you to do.

• 2:21:10Speaker 01

  So, you know, and you know, we had quite a few prisoners at the during this op and stuff and you know, you're getting ready in the middle of the night. You're loading them on this helicopter and they never seen helicopters up close. You know, so they're just looking around like I think it's like an alien spaceship and like, come on, you come with us. We're not going to execute you. Come on, you know, so we're we're rip rolling through this tour. We're just making some hell of a seizures.

• 2:21:40Speaker 01

  So we're getting close. We got like three weeks left to go. It's getting close to Halloween. And this bazaar, Pake Bazaar, and the Northern Helmand Province pops up hot. You know, and these bazaars out there, like outdoor flea markets with like rolling garage doors and things. And they saw everything from, you know, sundries, shampoos, chickens, but also to include chemicals and equipment to manufacture heroin, IED bomb making material and small arms. So this bazaar pops up hot and our team, fast team that was there before us, Bravo team had hit this bazaar with the Aussies.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  And they seized a lot of items and they got in a pretty big gunfight. And in fact, the supervisor of the fast team, Brett Hamilton, who was in my selection, he was a Marine Corps officer, old, tough, crusty guy, and we were the two oldest guys in our selection. He was a little older than me. Um, they're fighting their way back to the helicopters and he ends up getting the Forrest Gump wound. B jumped up and stung him. He got shot in the buttocks.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  Hard a hard dude, man. He stayed the rest of the tour, you know, they packed his wound, he was still going on ops and stuff. So, we knew we were gonna run into some resistance. But when we could hit it with the Aussies, there wasn't an air wing platform available with night vision capabilities that could fly us. So we're like, we really don't want to go during the day, we want to use our technical advantages, but we didn't have that option. And we were, our confidence was, I think, a little higher than it should

• 2:23:39Speaker 01

  have been. You know, they say you live by the sword, you die by the sword. So like, we're gonna go. So, we're gonna use this air wing that's training the Afghan pilots for when we left, they could take over and do stuff. And they were using old Russian MI-17 troop transport helicopters. No, it's a pretty robust helicopter, it's not, it's not as big as our CH-47, but they move pretty fast. And they get the door, and the door gunners, they got on one side a PKM machine gun, on the other side a GAW minigun. And there's US contract pilots in there with, with Afghans, and there's one British guy,

• 2:24:23Speaker 01

  British, British aviator too. So, the night before, they tell us, okay, um, one of the helicopters you guys are using is gonna be all Afghan crew and piloted. We're like, ooh, um, we don't really want to be on that helicopter, nor any of our Aussies, because if they decide that they're gonna get their jihad on that day and crash into a mountain, don't want to be on that. And they're not quite as skilled as our pilots. So we're like, okay, um, we'll go, but our Afghan counter, counterforce is gonna infill and exfil on that bird.

• 2:25:05Speaker 01

  So we get a plan, we're going to hit the bazaar early morning hours of October 31st, 2011, just after first light. You know, we want to get there with no people in the bazaar, you know, so we don't have to deal monkey around and deal with all that crap, just to get there. We're going to hit this bazaar, then we're going to hit another location after it. So the plan was, we arrive in three MI-17, no, four MI-17s. Some FAST team members and Australians are going to be in one. The Afghan partner force is going to be in another, and then the Australians are going to be in the other two birds.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  And the Australians are going to land and kind of set up an outer perimeter to try to keep the enemy from maneuvering in on us. But the only bad thing is, it was a little bit of a mountainous area, so the enemy had the high ground on us. And our Afghan partner force are going to land in the helicopter, they're going to search this little village area right outside the bazaar, we're going to link up, and then we're going to search the bazaar in two groups. I was in charge of one of the elements, made up of FAST team members with our Afghan partner force, and then one of our other guys was leading the other group.

• 2:26:30Speaker 01

  So we land, start moving through, hook up with the Afghans, and shortly after, in fill, we receive, start receiving sporadic incoming fire. Not very effective. So we're moving through, and we're finding poppy seed and stuff to manufacture heroin, and I'm standing outside of one of the stalls in the bazaar, behind this old beat-up car. I hear a shot fired, and I hear it hit the beat-up car behind me, and then I feel the back of my neck burn. I'm like, oh shit. So I dive into the stall of the bazaar, I put my hand on my back of my neck to see if any blood.

• 2:27:15Speaker 01

  I don't see any blood on my glove. I have, whatever Afghan translators look at it, and he says, "Oh, it looks okay, sir." But the bullet got so close, I could feel the heat of the bullet burn the back of my neck.

• 2:27:29Speaker 01

  So I kinda had my guard up after that and I'm like, oh, that's a close call, Joe. So I kinda was using all my techniques and tactics I had learned throughout the years on the police department, on the SWAT team, as a DEA agent, as the DEA fast training and prior missions. So shortly after that, over the little shitty loudspeaker system they have over there, the insurgents do a call to arms.

• 2:27:56Speaker 01

  "Today's your day to die. We must kill the infidels. We must drive them out of our land." So the incoming gunfire really increases. So we really hear the Aussies get into it with them.

• 2:28:10Jocko Willink?

  And you're still in the bazaar at this point?

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  We're still in the bazaar.

• 2:28:13Jocko Willink?

  And the Aussies are on external security?

• 2:28:15Speaker 01

  Yes, and we have the Marine air wing providing close air support. And we hear the Marine air wing get into it, the Aussies getting into it. So we're finishing up what we have to do. We're taking the samples, taking photographs and starting to destroy all the stuff. So we do that and we say, okay, we're like 10 mikes, 10 minutes out and we'll be ready to move.

• 2:28:42Speaker 01

  So we start calling our birds to come get us. So they're inbound and we have to make our way to our exfil locations. We're only about a couple, couple hundred meters away, not far. But we get bogged down in the gunfire.

• 2:28:57Speaker 01

  So we can't make our exfil positions in time, so we have to wave the helicopters off. So they go a distance away, but keep their rotors spinning. So, you know, at this time, you know, we're like moving in between mud huts and, you know, you're leapfrogging and you're like, you know, I know we have to get the hell out of here because the longer we stay, the more the enemy has time to amass, you know, and it's not going to be good. But, you know, in combat, you can't show fear to other people on your team or squad, even though you're feeling like, I don't know if we're gonna get the hell out of here.

• 2:29:40Speaker 01

  You know, so you're moving and we finally get set up in our exfil positions, Afghans in their little spa and us and the Aussies. So the four helicopters come in and we're receiving pretty heavy incoming fire, to include belt-fed machine gun fire. Um, don't remember, don't recall any RPGs.

• 2:30:01Speaker 01

  So the four helicopters come in and we got the Afghan crew and pilot helicopter, that one we're never gonna get on in a million years. And three land. Guess which one doesn't land? The Afghan crew and pilot helicopter. And afterwards, they said because of the brown out conditions with the other helicopters, helicopters picking up all the dust and rotor wash and all the incoming fire, they didn't feel comfortable landing.

• 2:30:29Speaker 01

  So instead of waiting for their bird to come, guess what the Afghans do?

• 2:30:33Jocko Willink?

  Pile on.

• 2:30:35Speaker 01

  To the next helicopter. And it's ours. So they get there first, um, we're in this open field, we run out there, we're like, get the hell off. They're not moving. I don't blame them, I wouldn't want to go back into that hell. So instead of being shot in this open damn field, we're like, okay, just go. So the three helicopters lift off and then it's us, the FAST team members and several Aussies. So we take-

• 2:31:01Jocko Willink?

  How many guys were left on the ground?

• 2:31:02Speaker 01

  Um-

• 2:31:03Jocko Willink?

  Like ten, fifteen of you?

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, at max. Um, we had from FAST, we had, we had Jared, Justin, two Matts, um,

• 2:31:19Speaker 01

  Brent, Paul, myself and a couple Aussies. They were like under ten. So, of course, all the fire's focused on us at this point. So we take cover in a little ditch. And then our helicopter, short time, lands about a hundred meters away and that's the one we're never gonna get on, the Afghan crew and pilot helicopter. So they land and, um, I remember saying to myself, of course your heart's racing, feel like I gotta get the hell out of here. Um, I remember saying to myself, this is gonna be a shitty run. You know, there's bullets just popping up everywhere. So, but I knew we couldn't stay.

• 2:32:00Speaker 01

  So, one of the last memories I kinda have from that day is I get up to run.

• 2:32:09Speaker 01

  I remember firing a couple shots on the run towards the direction I felt insurgents were firing at us from. I guess I got the helicopter about mid-pack and that's when I paused and was providing fire for the rest of my teammates to get on or near the helicopter. And then, once that happened, my team leader, Jared Johnson, said, "Let's roll," I guess. And that's when I turned left to run onto the helicopter and then I got hit in the head. At first, he thought I fell and he's trying to rouse me and I'm not moving, I'm face-first into the ground. And then, he rolls me over and he sees the ballistic glasses I was wearing were shattered.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  And he sees a hole in my head. So, they roll me over and they're thinking I'm dead, which is a very, you know, very possible situation here, you get took around to the head. And so, they grab me, scoop me up, throw me in helicopter, that's when Brent and, you know, he put in cover fire down. Matt Stewart's trying to get the Afghan door gunners to fire, they're not even firing. And helicopters getting shot up, you know, we're getting shot and he's like, "Shoot, shoot, shoot." So, they fire a couple rounds, you know, burst into the ground. So, he's like, "No, shoot, shoot." So, he takes, you know, he grabs the gun and starts shooting a little bit.

• 2:33:33Speaker 01

  So, they throw me on the helicopter and, you know, they think I'm dead, you know, helicopter's very loud in there, of course, and everything, so you can't hear breathing. So, one of my teammates, Justin Vanderbilt, who actually, before DEA, he was a medic in New Orleans and he was there during Katrina. So, he was kind of like one of our more highly trained, kind of our version of like 18 Delta medical guy, even though we all go through pretty intense T-triple-C combat care and actually live tissue training and stuff. He's like, "He's alive, he's breathing."

• 2:34:15Speaker 01

  So they start getting my stuff cut out and they apply combat gauze to my head wounds, which is gauze with clotting agent in there. So they're getting that under control. And then a lot of times with facial wounds or different that head wounds, you want to try to establish a better airway. And you know, and you can do that by a couple of different ways. You can do a crike where you cut, you know, the person's throat and you insert and implement in there, help them breathe more. Or you can use a nasal fair and gel airway. And they decide they're gonna stick a nasal fair and gel airway up my nose. And in training, we have to insert these in and each other. And

• 2:35:00Jocko Willink?

  Just so everyone knows, this is like a, it's basically like a U-shaped tube that you cram in someone's nose that will open up the airway between your nostrils and like your lungs, not all the way down to your lungs, but like through your head. You know, they're probably, what do you think they are, Joe? Like maybe five inches long total?

• 2:35:19Speaker 01

  Yes. And the one end looks like there's a funnel on there and the other end, you know, and in training, we can put lidocaine in our nose before we do it, but it still sucks. Or no, no offense intended. Um, we were training with the SEALs, they allow us to spit on them, stick these up in his nose. And these are not fun. And when they're cramming this up my nose, I come to, I don't remember any of this. It's probably a good thing. Um, I'm talking, making sense. Um, I recognize people's voices. I'm not complaining about

• 2:35:59Speaker 01

  my head, even though I have a hole on each side. I decide, I say, get it out of my eyes. The pressure from the high velocity round, which we think was an armored person round from a belt fed PKM machine gun, traveling through my head ruptured both my eye globes and detached both retinas. So they pour saline solutions on my eyes. Of course, that doesn't do jack crap. And then I'm telling them, I gotta move my leg.

• 2:36:30Speaker 01

  So they think I'm shot in the leg too with all the gunfire that was coming at us. And this particular mission, I did not have my belt fed machine gun. I had my carbine with a suppressor on it. And I had been shooting quite a bit. So when I got knocked unconscious, I fell on the barrel of my rifle and the suppressor and it burned the inside of my left leg real bad. And actually, the cry pants I was wearing were burned, you know, they were burned. And they, you know, they burned my leg pretty good. So they're, you know, they're working on me and, you know, they're getting me back to the base as quick as possible. And I know my teammates said, the thing that scared them, even though the bleeding stopped,

• 2:37:14Speaker 01

  my head just kept swelling up and swelling up. They knew there was nothing they could do there. But luckily for me, um, the helicopter was there when I got shot. So, you know, I usually take the time now to talk about some of the things that I think led to my survivability is that, you know, even though I was severely wounded by my team providing that fast medical attention, they had stalled my decompensation, giving time for me to get the higher care.

• 2:37:53Speaker 01

  And I know it's not in vogue at times or this and that, but for all instances, I should be dead, talking to the medical professionals. Over eighty percent of the people who get my injury do not survive. And the day I became a police officer, my mother gave me a Saint Michael's medallion. It's a patron saint to protect police officers. And I always carried one on me. I had one in my kit. I always did the Psalm 91 prayer before I went on missions and carried a copy on me. That's the prayer of soldiers going into battle for the Lord to protect you. And I had one of my grandfather's dog takes in World War II on me.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  And it was not my time to go.

• 2:38:43Speaker 01

  The Lord had more for me to do. I think some of that is me doing my motivational speaking now.

• 2:38:51Speaker 01

  Helping others deal with situations and instances. And it just was not my time to go. And then with all our high-speed medical training that we had, once my teammates found out I was alive, nobody panicked. And unfortunately, over there, we had to use our medical training more than we had liked. So that, and also, you know, I talk about mindset. You know, you have to have this mindset that if you're in a fight for your life, or you're with a suspect or an enemy, you're fighting for your life, or getting in a shootout,

• 2:39:32Speaker 01

  or it could be, you could be at home, you could have an accident or driving a car. If you're in a fight, you have to survive. You have to fight. You have to kick, claw, scratch, gouge, whatever you have to do. You have to think to yourself, "I am not going to lose this fight. I am not going to lose. I'm going to survive. I'm gonna make it through that." You have to have that mental attitude. You know, I kind of call it the warrior's mindset, or the winning mentality, that I'm gonna survive and make it through this. You know, there's no way I'm not gonna make it through, even though at first I was not unconscious,

• 2:40:16Speaker 01

  my body, my mind, didn't give up. "You're gonna, you're gonna make it through this, Joe." You know, I didn't see any bright light or anything. I may have saw some little fire below or something. It wasn't time.

• 2:40:33Speaker 01

  So, also, talking to the doctors.

• 2:40:38Speaker 01

  I was in really great physical shape when I got shot. And the better shape you're in, a lot of times, the more traumatic injury you can survive. And a lot of times, the better your recovery is. So, you know, so when I talk to groups, you know, especially military law enforcement groups, you know, I tell people, you don't have to be an Olympic athlete, but please, please, please, be in the best shape you can, because it may save your life. You never know. Like I said, it could be a car accident you're in, or you could fall off a ladder at the house. You know, just please stay in the best shape that you can. So, we fly back to the base, Tarrant Calt, which we're staying at with the Aussies.

• 2:41:22Speaker 01

  So, we land at, on the airfield there, and the ambulance comes out to meet us, and they don't bring a stretcher to the bird. They think they have me on a stretcher. Even though we have them, they didn't have me on one. So, I hear this commotion going on. So, guess what the guy shot in the head does? He gets off to walk off the helicopter. My teammates like, no, Joe, we got you. We'll carry you. So, they carry me to the ambulance, bring me to the medical facility there. They do what they can for me there.

• 2:41:58Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember trying to get up and walk?

• 2:41:59Speaker 01

  No. I don't, I don't, I don't remember talking to my teammates on the helicopter, none of that. Alls I remember is firing a couple shots on the run. Because I, you know, talking to the doctors, because I guess, you know, when I got hit, it was just lights out, and it's kind of your brain's mechanism protect you. And I'm probably glad I don't remember any of that stuff. So, they brought me to the medical facility there. They knocked me unconscious, did what they can for me there. And then, they make arrangements to fly me in a medevac helicopter to Kandahar Airfield, which they had a neurosurgeon and eye surgeon standing by.

• 2:42:39Speaker 01

  So, I'm flown over there with one of my teammates, Matt Stewart. We arrive there. So, they, of course, they do an assessment on me there. And it was fortunate for me that day, it was Halloween. So, not a lot of groups were doing, or units were doing missions. So, they didn't have many casualties in the hospital there. So they first take a look at me and I guess I'm starting to be kept alive with basic life-saving procedures at this time. And they don't think there's anything they can do to save me. So they're just gonna have me pass peacefully and then have me sent home, back home on an

• 2:43:24Speaker 01

  angel flight, deceased. But the doctor, the neurosurgeon, he's a pretty aggressive guy and then the nurse that in took me there and he's looking at me, he's talking to my teammates, you know, my teammate, that I was talking after in the helicopter. I got up to walk off, I was trying to get whatever's in my eyes out and he sees what shape I'm in and he's convinced that if he gets in and performs surgery, that they can get the bleeding in my head stopped and some of the pressure relieved, at least get me home to the state so my family can see me. Didn't know what condition I was gonna be in, even though, you know, I was talking

• 2:44:07Speaker 01

  in the helicopter and he had to decide whether I could survive, even what he was gonna do to me during surgery. And he felt strongly that I had the will that I wasn't going to die. And he told me after the fact, with brain injuries and head injuries, he said there was a smell that somebody gave off, that he could tell if they weren't gonna make it or not. And he said, "I did not have that smell."

• 2:44:40Speaker 01

  And the head nurse there, you know, they're bickering back and forth, whether, you know, he's fighting in the command, whether they should use their resources to save me and I guess there's a line in the hospital there, where once you cross over that line, surgery has to take the patient. You can't push him back. So the head nurse at the time, which I'm still friends with, I'm not gonna mention her name because I don't wanna get in any trouble, pushed me over that line.

• 2:45:11Speaker 01

  So surgery had to take me. So they began to operate on me. The neurosurgeons spent approximately four and a half hours operating on me. They actually removed the whole frontal skull piece off my head. All my frontal forehead is now titanium. They got the bleeding stopped. They got, they put a valve in there to regulate my pressure. And then the eye surgeon came in. And he's like, she's like talking to the main doctors, like, is he really survivable? Am I going to spend all this work on somebody where he's just going to be sent home in a box?

• 2:45:53Speaker 01

  And that was a possibility, but he says, I think, you know, he's going to make it. So she spent approximately eight hours piecing my eyes back together with a microscope. And the work she did has given me the opportunity in the future to be able to potentially see more. My left eye has some light perception and I can see some movement in my left eye and I can see some shapes or there's a bigger color contrast between light and dark. So she pieced my eyes back together. So the next day, one of my best friends on my unit, he was in another part of the country trying to get some other ops together.

• 2:46:35Speaker 01

  He makes it there and he flies back en route to the States with me. Of course, they had me on this big, I guess, medical plane, you know, pretty much each patient has their own nurse and everything. And we're en route back to the States and of course they're letting my family know what happened and everything. And at the time, I was engaged and I told my fiancee at the time, I said, don't, if I can't get ahold of you, you can't get ahold of me, I'm out on the op. When I get back in, we'll Skype or and I'll text you or call you. I said, only worry if two people come knocking on the door.

• 2:47:18Speaker 01

  So she was a nurse, she worked night shift and she, Afghanistan's like eight and a half hours different. And um, she hears a knock on the door that morning, she got back from work and she goes to the door and she sees two gentlemen through the window she doesn't recommend and they put their badges out and she's like, oh shit. So she opens the door and she starts bawling. They're like, he's not dead. He's in surgery, we don't know, but he's alive at this point. So they get all my family notified and everything and then, uh, we had to fly over to Launstall, Germany and they have a pretty good medical thing there with my buddy Travis and with the pressure, my head was rising, they kept me there for three nights.

• 2:48:02Speaker 01

  And then, um, they flew me, uh, to, um, Andrews Air Force Base. I was gonna say Dover, but you don't wanna make it to Dover, cause that means you're dead. Um, so they flew me to Andrews and then had all my family at the hospital and all the people from DEA and everything, the, the higher ups and, you know, some of the other people on their teams waiting to receive me. So they take me, um, via ambulance over to Walter Reed National Naval Medical Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. So, they, when I arrived, they let my family see me. They plan on doing some other surgeries there, but of course, I'm a mess.

• 2:48:44Speaker 01

  I have no frontal skull piece, my head's all caved in, I guess, you know, I'm swollen, I got a tube coming out of almost every part of my body. And they let my family see me and at the time, my fiance was a, um, intensive care nurse, so she's seen a lot of trauma, a lot of bad things. But I guess when she saw me, of course, when it's your loved ones, it's different. She put her hand on her mouth, screamed, ran out of the room and passed out. Her dad had to help her off the floor. You know, it's when it's somebody you love and care about, it's different.

• 2:49:24Speaker 01

  So they brought me in there, they did some surgeries on me, they reattached my retinas. They cleaned up my head area more in preparation for putting my plate on, my metal plate that I have now on later. They don't want to put it on too quick because the chance of rejection is greater and everything. So they want to wait. So they do that and then they put me in an induced coma with that, that propofol. You want to maybe call it the Michael Jackson drug. The one Michael Jackson used to sleep, God rest Michael Jackson, you know, God rest his soul.

• 2:50:06Speaker 01

  It works very good for putting people in a coma because you can reverse them real quick, but not necessarily, it's not, not necessarily prescribed for sleep. So they had me on that and they had me, they had me intubated and everything. So they had me in a induced coma for about a week. And then when they were getting ready to bring me out of the coma, they didn't know how I was going to be, even though I was talking and making sense on the helicopter and all that with the additional trauma of the surgeries. They wouldn't know if I could speak at all, would I remember anything? Would I have my same personality? But they soon, shortly after they learned I was the same smart ass Joe I was before. You know, I was a little confused at first.

• 2:50:50Speaker 01

  They asked me, you know, where do you live? I'm like, oh, Detroit, Michigan. What do you do? I'm a police officer. What's your dog's name? I said Max, that was my very first dog I had when I was a kid. But I soon, shortly after I got my bearings, I knew who I was at the particular time. I knew who I was working for and everything. So then started my road to recovery. You know, so now I'm blind. Um, I'm not in the best, you know, best condition physically at this particular time because of the injuries. You know, so they begin to start my recovery process.

• 2:51:33Speaker 01

  And I was on a feeding tube for a while, so they had to pull that out and they trick you. They say, okay, we're gonna pull this out on three. One, two, uh! I'm like, oh, you didn't wait for three. I was like, uh! I'm like, we say that because we want to catch you by surprise. You don't want you to say three, then pull, and then you tighten it and it makes it worse. Um, so I had to learn how to eat solid food. I failed a couple swallow studies at first and, you know, of course, I'm losing weight by the minute because I'm not being active. And the people at the hospital, oh, he's got a lot of muscle. He's in good shape, you know, he's. And my ex-wife at the time, my ex-fiance, you didn't see him before.

• 2:52:16Speaker 01

  So we started making them feed me, you know, like insure in between meals and stuff to try to put some more weight on and we do things like, okay, today, your task is, okay, Joe, have you put your shorts on and your T-shirt and your socks? You know, how long is it going to take you? I said, you know, obviously five or 10 minutes or whatever. So the one time I'm sitting there with the physical therapist and my ex, and um, I'm feeling these shorts. And I'm like, these don't feel like my size. I'm like, what size are these? And of course, my ex doesn't say anything like a church mouse. She's like, she knows she's telling me what size they are. I'm gonna throw a hissy fit.

• 2:52:56Speaker 01

  So the therapist says, let me see, I'll tell you. She goes, they're medium. I took those shorts, I threw them across the room. I said, I'm a big fella. I wear extra large. If I would have put those extra large shorts on there, they would have felt straight to the floor. Because when I got shot, I was probably 230s really lean. And they would weigh me on the bed every day. I was down, I got down to like 160 something.

• 2:53:22Speaker 01

  So those shorts would have What was the timeframe for that? Like, a month? Two months, I spent two months there. Not, not, not long. So, we got over that and then I was, I was confused and then, um, of course, my eye doctor, he was, his name was Dr. Chung there and he's a very serious man. So one day we're sitting in my room, my father's there with me and my teammate Travis, and Dr. Chung walks in and Travis is like, "Dr. Chung, I, I want to tell you, Joe thinks he's African-American."

• 2:54:00Speaker 01

  I was all jacked up, so I'm talking and acting like I'm an inner-city African-American guy and lingo and everything, and Dr. Chung like, "Are you serious?" And Travis says, "Yes." And then my dad's like, "Well, he is from Detroit."

• 2:54:17Speaker 01

  So, Dr. Chung thought I was pretty serious, but I only acted that way for a couple of mu- you know, a couple of days, you know? And then I got my bearings back. So, yeah, it, you know, it, it progressed there and they did everything they can for me there and then they let me start doing like a little bit of workout stuff there and they brought me to like the little PT gym area and they're like, "Okay, we're gonna have you do like some little dumbbell stuff." And I'm like, "Okay, tell me which way-" Where are the 120s? With the weight, you know, "Tell me it's good." I said, "Oh, these are too heavy." "No, these are too heavy, these are too heavy." "Okay, these are good." And then I found out after the fact, Max, I'm like, "Joe, those were the pink dumbbells you were using." Oh, no. They're like about like two pounds or whatnot.

• 2:55:03Speaker 01

  "Oh, I don't care, I'm, I'm getting it at work," you know? Yeah, yeah. You know, so, um, they did that and they start, you know, teaching you how to operate blind and, I don't know, for some goofy reason. I thought I didn't have any skin on my head where my brain was. I thought it was just like mesh. So they're like, Joe, you need to take a shower. We need to get you a shower. I'm like, I can't get my brain wet. And Max is like, Joe, you have skin there. I'm like, oh, I do? So you kind of lose all your dignity. You gotta go in the shower with this, you know, this nurse or whatever. They're all gowned up and all this rubber gear. And you just, you know, stand there with your birthday suit on, butt naked. I'm like, guess I'm taking a shower, you know?

• 2:55:49Jocko Willink?

  And so how long was this, you know, recovery process? How long did you stay? Was this still taking place at Bethesda?

• 2:55:55Speaker 01

  Yes, I was there for two months.

• 2:55:57Jocko Willink?

  Two months. When, so you lost freaking whatever. You went from 230 to 160.

• 2:56:03Speaker 01

  Something, yes.

• 2:56:04Jocko Willink?

  And now you start rebuilding.

• 2:56:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:56:08Jocko Willink?

  And, and when you start rebuilding, does that really start to take place when you get out of Bethesda?

• 2:56:14Speaker 01

  Yes, because they transferred me down to the, um,

• 2:56:20Speaker 01

  Maguire VA down in Richmond, Virginia. You know, after that, so it was kind of nice, but we're getting close to Christmas time now-ish. And, um,

• 2:56:33Speaker 01

  so on the weekends, they let me go home as long as I came back Sunday night. And I got to go home for the holidays and then we became, started doing a lot, learning there, a lot more how to operate in a blind world, like use the blind cane, use some of the voiceover stuff like on the computer and things like that. And I began to let me start working out more there. You know, so during this time, I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen to me or not happen to me and I'm like, our administrator at the time, her name was Michelle Lindhart, she was like in charge of us. And she asked my buddy Travis, what does Joe want? He's like, Joe wants to keep working.

• 2:57:17Speaker 01

  She goes, we'll make it happen. So even though I didn't meet the physical requirements to be a DEA agent anymore, they kept me on as a DEA agent after this. Because they figured out the money, you make a lot more retiring as a regular agent rather than taking a medical disability. So they kind of hooked me up and during my stay in.

• 2:57:41Speaker 01

  Walter Reed, Bethesda. Hearing my teammates and my parents talk about they bring all these wounded service members back home overseas. Tore up bad. A lot of these are younger kids. When this happened to me, I was like forty-one years old. I lived a pretty damn good life.

• 2:58:04Speaker 01

  And a lot of these kids, maybe not married, maybe newly married, maybe just had some, you know, a child and, you know, their life is drastically changed forever. So when I would have my pity party and why me? Woe is me? You know, I would say, Joe, it always could be worse. Somebody always has it worse than you.

• 2:58:30Speaker 01

  You know, you can't control what you don't have anymore. Alls you can do is work with what you have now. So in life, when bad things happen, we can make a couple of choices. We can let life pass us by, or we can get out there and do as much as we can do. And I made a commitment to myself that I'm gonna try to do as much blind as what I could see. I didn't know how that was gonna look. But I made that commitment.

• 2:59:08Speaker 01

  And when there's a will, there's a way. If you want to figure out how to do stuff and make stuff happen, it may not be the same way you used to do it. It may take you a lot longer, but if you really want to do something bad enough, you can do it. So I made that commitment right there, right then. And I tell people when I talk, it's not been easy. Every day is a struggle for me. I still wake up every day blind. You know, I've had a very severe traumatic brain injury. I've had a pretty bad PTSD because of it. And I've done stuff to manage and mitigate that.

• 2:59:51Speaker 01

  And, you know, when I talk, you know, with the amount of suicide from service members and this and that, you know, a lot of us want to play we're tough and it doesn't affect us and this and that.

• 3:00:03Speaker 01

  But you can't get help unless you admit you have it. And ask for the help, because there are things and things out there and I got the stellate ganglion block shot, which helps PTSD. You have a stellate gland in your neck, when you have PTSD, that gland gets all screwed up. And they go in and deaden the gland, and it's kind of like reboots your brain in your computer. And it helps you tremendously, you know, so there's things, things out there. So there's things that I've went on and done since I've been blind. I've tandem skydive jumped.

• 3:00:39Speaker 01

  And a buddy of mine, his wife out in Monterey, California, runs a skydiving place. And before I wanted to tandem jump, but I've always kind of been over the weight limit. And he says for a tandem, he's like, what, you know, what are you gonna weigh, Joe? I said, I'm about 240 right now, and I knew I couldn't be able to. He says, come up, and we'll make it happen. So when we weighed in, his wife wanted to, he says, tell me you weigh 230.

• 3:01:08Speaker 01

  So my tandem guy that's jumping with me takes a look at me, says, we're gonna fall real quick. You're like, how far do you wanna, how high do you wanna jump, Joe? It's the highest we can go. So I guess we jumped at 16,000 feet. Wow. And I guess that's the highest you can go without, we should go without oxy, you know, you know, any higher than that, you wanna be on oxygen, and any higher than that, you need to get FAA approval. So we were the first ones to go out of the bird, and I don't know if it's worse being able to see or not.

• 3:01:40Speaker 01

  Look, you know, you know, you know, we jumped out of a King Air, you know, they opened that door, and the wind's just rushing, and you know, we're the first, and they tell you what to do, you know, and we're gonna rock back on, you know, one, two, three, then go, and then, you know, put your arms back, and then how to land properly and stuff. But it was, it was definitely a kick in the pants. Would I do it again? Probably yes, because I'm nuts. And even in the hospital, we're talking about my frontal brain lobe injury, the doctors told my parents, well, he can never be trusted with a credit card anymore, he might just be at work and take all his clothes off. My mom's like, well, he didn't make good decisions to begin with, so he's not gonna lose much there.

• 3:02:21Speaker 01

  It affected me to an extent, but did not affect me to the extent where it could have, thankfully. So, I also do all kind of, I hunt and shoot blind with special optics. So, how does that work? Um, on top of your rifle, where a scope would sit, you have like, it's like a high-speed video camera that has built-in Wi-Fi and it projects to a tablet or a smartphone. And basically, it'll show on tablet or smartphone, like a sight picture of a scope. And you got, you know, assistant gunner, A gunner, and they tell me left, right, up,

• 3:03:03Speaker 01

  or down. And as long as I, my breathing's controlled and I don't jerk the trigger, I can hit a pie plate at 300 meters every time. Since I've been blind, I've shot five deer, two bucks and three does. I got two alligators in Louisiana with a, we had Glock pistol with a laser sight. And I remember before watching that show Swamp People and I Can See, I said, "They're nuts." I said, "You would never catch me in a million years doing that." So, an opportunity came up. "Hey, Joe, you wanna go gator hunting?" "Oh, yeah, sure." I guess that goes back to my poor decision-making. And I tell you, there was some pucker factor

• 3:03:46Speaker 01

  going on there, buddy. So, I'm with another guy from Fast and we were with, the guy we were with, his brother is a DA agent and he, this guy works in the oil business out in Louisiana, New Orleans area, and he does the gator hunting. So, we go to a couple of our lines and if the listeners and whoever said, if they've ever seen how they catch them, you have a big, like, trumble hook with chicken on it. And they set them up and the gator bites the chicken and gets caught in this hook and then you have to go and pull the gator up and then you gotta shoot them.

• 3:04:27Speaker 01

  Now, on a show like Swamp People, they yank on the line to try to get the gator to go nuts for theatrics for TV. Now, how you wanna do it? You wanna pull them up slow so they don't fight, and a gator can only stay underwater for so long, and yada, yada, yada. So we pull up to the first couple lines, and they're not touched. So we pull up to the third line, and he's like, "Oh shit, we got a big one." He goes, "He's on the bank, he's got the chicken in his mouth, he's about a ten footer." So we roll up in this little John boat, and we get to the line, and the guy's starting to pull him in, so I'm on my knees, I got this Glock with the laser sight on it, forty

• 3:05:08Speaker 01

  caliber Glock, you know, and I could just press the pad for laser sight, you know, when we're ready, and he can kinda guide me in for the shot. So, he's pulling the gator in, and the gator gets under the boat. He's like, "Oh shit." So, he's like, "Okay, we're not going to force this. He's gotta eventually come up." So I'm thinking, he got the gator snout not too far from me, I'm on my knees, and I'm like, "Joe, what the hell are you doing out here?" I'm like, "You're blind, and if this gator snaps to bite you, you can't even see to jump back, and then these locals are gonna be out, you know, are gonna see after the fact..." "That's certain, right?

• 3:05:52Speaker 01

  Ain't no blind guy in no business out there anyway. What the hell, that guy in the city out there, blind, out there hunting alligators, to get my arm bit off." So, believe me, there was some pucker factor. So, the gator starts yanking-

• 3:06:04Jocko Willink?

  I like the fact that not only you're a little worried you might lose your arm from a gator, but you also don't wanna look stupid in front of these people, you know? It's always a key thing.

• 3:06:12Speaker 01

  You gotta, you gotta look cool, you know? Now, there's the blind guy with one arm, you know? So, the gator starts fighting a little bit, and the guy's like, "Shit, he bent the hook and got off." So he's like, "Okay, keep your eye out, my buddy's there with his pistol, and he's got, he takes the Glock, he's got a surface." He only stayed on for so long, so he goes, "Look for the bubbles." He goes, "I see bubbles." He goes, "He's coming up." So he shoots him, pow, hits him in the head, hits him again, pow. And the buddy I'm with, he, so I shoot him too. He goes, "Yeah." So he shoots him, so we go over to the gator, and then we push him to the shore to try to get

• 3:06:57Speaker 01

  this big SOB on the boat. So as we're trying to get him on the boat, I hear another shot. The gator's already got three bullets in his head. He opens his eyes again.

• 3:07:10Speaker 01

  So the guy hits him in the head again, and he's done. So we got this big, big gator on the boat, so it takes up all the room. So we had to drop him off to try to check other lines. And we went to our next line. He had like a nine footer on there, and he was putting up more of a fight, and I got to shoot that one twice. So that was kind of, um, kind of interesting. Havaux, actually, um, I was in Sun Valley, Idaho last year during hyperbaric oxygen chamber treatments, uh, because that increases stem cell activity, trying to get a little more sight back. And I got to downhill snow ski three times. I did that when I was younger, and it's kind of, kind of counterintuitive, but skiing, you want to lean forward in blind. You don't want to lean

• 3:07:55Speaker 01

  forward when you're walking because you want to crack your head on things. And I've actually got stitches a couple of times in my eyebrows since I lost my sight because I was in a hurry. Um, so that was fun. That was on my bucket list. Um, I tried slalom water skiing at our cottage up north this last year. I used to ski a lot when I was young. I just, I popped up, but I couldn't get my other foot in the rear boot. I couldn't, my balance was off with blind, so I tried a couple of times, and at least I tried. Um, so I did that. Um, I ran 5K races blind, and I've actually, last July, I, as you know, I'm a little guy.

• 3:08:39Speaker 01

  I became the first blind IFB men's pro bodybuilder in history. Got my pro card. So I did that and you know, the sky's the limit. There's different things you can do and you can't cry over spilled milk and you can just control what you can control. A lot of people ask me, you know, what are some of the hardest things getting used to being blind, Joe? I think one of the biggest things, you lose your independence. I just can't get in the car and go somewhere myself. Or if I want to work out, I just can't go by myself. So you have to rely on other people.

• 3:09:21Speaker 01

  You know, I'm typical like the, you know, the law enforcement guy or the real type A. Want to do everything by myself. You know, you can't, you know, if you're falling behind, I'm just going to take over, you know? You know, you want to do it right, do it yourself. I have to learn how to slow down and trust other people. And which is probably good for me. I had to learn to ask for help. I wasn't good at that before. But lucky, I have a very good base of friends and teammates and family and DEA has really stepped up since I've been hurt. Myself or my family has never been without anything. And at first, being in crowds really freaked me out.

• 3:10:04Speaker 01

  Because being in law enforcement for as long as I have, you're always taught to be aware of your surroundings. I know you're not supposed to... You know, I'm trying to think of the word. Oh, God.

• 3:10:30Speaker 01

  It'll come to me, but.

• 3:10:33Jocko Willink?

  I was getting, on this subject, I was getting debriefed by like a psychologist situation. And I filled out some form and they're like, um, one of the things was like, uh, you know, do you feel comfortable in crowds? And um, I said, do you feel comfortable in crowds? And I was like, oh, well, no. And so, you know, the psychiatrist, it's a, is a female. She looks at, she's, you know, she says, uh, do you, you say you don't feel very comfortable in crowds? And this was like, I mean, I, I was back from Iraq, but you know, whatever, it'd been a little bit of time. And she says, you know, you say you don't feel very comfortable in crowds. And I said, well, no, not really. And she goes, well, why is that? And I go, well, you know, there's terrorists in America, right?

• 3:11:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:11:17Jocko Willink?

  And she looked like, she like, whatever, she started taking copious notes, you know, about my mental health or whatever. Which I was just like, hey, it's a reality, you know, it's a reality.

• 3:11:28Speaker 01

  You know, you know, but you always want to be aware of your surroundings. Okay. Where are my entrances? Where are my exits? Who looks suspicious? Who doesn't? You know, you're not trying to like stereotype people, but it's all what doesn't look right. And at first, being blind, things, sounds of people were, sounded closer than what they were or farther than what they were. I was just real uneasy, but over time I learned to deal with that. So I'm not as jittery and stuff as I once was. I just learned to, you know, trust the people around me. And so, you know, that's one of the things people ask me, do I have a service dog? I don't.

• 3:12:13Speaker 01

  I put in for one, but then I got my left eye, I had a chance to get an artificial cornea in my left eye. And they thought I could get back more vision than I did. So I didn't want to take a dog from somebody who needed it more. And the artificial cornea helped me see a little better. But not as much as we had hoped for. So I still might get a, a service dog in the future. They're pretty incredible what they can do.

• 3:12:40Jocko Willink?

  They're awesome. Yeah. Very incredible.

• 3:12:42Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 3:12:45Speaker 01

  You know, people ask me, do I get headaches and stuff a lot? No, I never had a headache, thank God. Because people ask that question and, you know, they ask me, you know, what is, you know, what can you see, what can you can't see? Like I said earlier, I can see shapes, I can see light. I can see some movement. On an eye chart, my left eye is 2,400 to 2,500, depending on the day. Anything over 2,200 is legally blind. My right eye is nothing. That's the side the bullet went into. If the eye doctor shines a light, I said, I can think, I can see a light. But there's future. With my left eye, I have artificial cornea. So,

• 3:13:29Speaker 01

  there is help. The thing that's limiting my sight is my optic nerve and retina is still very damaged. But they are working on stem cell for that, to regenerate that. And they're still fairly confident in two to five years, I could get more sight back, which, which would be nice. And if I do, that would be great. But if not, you know, I'm still gonna keep soldiering on and do what, you know, and do what the hell, you know, I can do. And they said, you know, you don't want to be the first for anything. You want to let them work the kinks out of this, this stuff first, you know. You know, before, we had all this mess with China, you heard them doing the stem cells and everything over there. And I asked my eye doctor, so I go to the best eye doctors that I can now. They're like, you don't want

• 3:14:13Speaker 01

  to go over there, Joe. When the technology is good, and it works, we'll have it here, too. So, you know, just on standby to standby for that, you know, so, you know, we'll keep going with that. I do my motivational speaking, which gives me purpose now. You know, I've always been, you know, took jobs in different things, were to serve people and serve the community. I can't do my job the way I have in the past. But for me to get up there and talk to people and tell my story, one, it's therapeutic for me, too, to talk about it.

• 3:14:51Speaker 01

  And two, if somebody's having a bad day, a bad year, a bad whatever, that to see, there's always somebody that has it worse. It always could be worse. So, you know, you gotta count the blessings you have and be thankful for the things. That you still have, you can't cry about what you don't have anymore. All you can just do is move on, so. You know, I'm gonna continue doing the motivational speaking, which is good, you know, and there's been groups I've talked to where I've got after action reports where people in the audience have, were gonna commit suicide. And they heard me talk and they said, "My life's really not that bad."

• 3:15:36Speaker 01

  You know, "I can do it." You know, so I tell people, you know, "If I can do it, you can do it." You know, I've always had a strong will, I've always been very stubborn. That kinda helped me survive, but the stubbornness isn't always so good in relationships. You know, because I could be a pain in the butt, just ask my girlfriend. You know, and I do really preach the PTSD part two. Because we're losing way too many men and women for that. So if you do have it, and I always knew I had it, but I didn't get better until I admitted I had it. But while I was still working, I was afraid I was gonna lose my security clearance and this and that.

• 3:16:20Speaker 01

  And in all actuality, I would not have. But you know, there's things and treatments and things you can do for that. Like the stellate ganglion block shot is one, a great thing for that. You know, finding a good fit with a therapist, you know, that, you know, can work with you. So all those things are important. So to me, I tell people, "It's macho to say you have it. It's not macho to have it and say you don't have it." You know, so don't be, you know, a tough guy or a tough gal. There's help out there, but please, you know, seek that help.

• 3:16:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, for me, um, you know, one of my guys, Ryan Jobe, was also shot in the head and he also ended up losing his vision. And unfortunately, um, after that, you know, after one of the surgeries, one of the many surgeries that he went through, there was some, there were some medical complications. And and he and he passed away. Um, but it's it's for me, you know, meeting you, seeing you, talking to you, you know, you had this, you have the same kind of attitude that he had, you know, he, he, he had been blind and he was doing all kinds of things. He was climbing Mount Rainier.

• 3:17:36Jocko Willink?

  He was, he had shot a bull elk. Uh, you know, he was doing the kind of stuff that you're doing. So it's, it's awesome for me to see someone in your situation that has the same exact attitude that Ryan Job had, just a, just a warrior badass that just was still driving on regardless.

• 3:17:53Speaker 01

  Oh, I, one of the things I forgot too, another animal that I shot this past year, I went to West Virginia and I shot a black bear.

• 3:18:06Speaker 01

  So it, it was a female bear and I named it Penelope after the fact. I got that stuffed. So that's my little, little Penelope.

• 3:18:15Jocko Willink?

  What are the workouts? You, you just do your normal workouts that you used to do for bodybuilding in the first place?

• 3:18:21Speaker 01

  And I've been doing it for so long. My very first bodybuilding show was in 1993. I did the central states of Michigan. After college, I was still looking to something competitive. I've always been a big guy. Um, and I'm pretty knowledgeable about nutrition and the workouts and stuff, but I'm also smart enough to know there's always somebody who knows more than you. So me being blind, I can't see how I look. I can kind of feel when I'm getting leaner and this and that. So I do have a coach. Um, so my coach, um, I check in at least right now in the off season every week, send them pictures or videos, how I'm looking, answering questions, you know,

• 3:19:00Speaker 01

  how's my appetite? Um, how am I feeling this way and that way? You know, getting blood work all the time to make sure everything is functioning optimally. Of course, I spend a shit ton of money on supplements. And the coach kinda guy sees my okay, you know, we'll, you know, you need to do maybe some more fat burning cardio, you know, we'll arrange your diet this way. And also, he sends me workouts too to follow, you know, depending on the time of year, you know, depending on the workout and the rep range and the amount of cardio I'm doing. So it's important too, you have to have a good coach you can trust too, that's good. But a lot of these coaches blow smoke up their clients butts. Oh, you look great. You're gonna be

• 3:19:45Speaker 01

  Mr. Olympia and this and that. And they can't even win a local show, you know. It's like, no, no, I'd rather have somebody be honest with me, you know, hey, Joe, you know, he looks like you're ready for this competition, or you're not. And, and please tell me, I'll make the corrections I need to make, or maybe we're gonna have to wait on, you know, and do a, a later competition. So, you know, we'll see what the future holds. You know, I, if I get some more sight back, I would like to do, you know, some tactical training with people, some firearms training, get more sight back. I could be a, a coach for people getting ready for competitions, but I couldn't justify now, if I can't see how

• 3:20:26Speaker 01

  they look, I can't really do an effective job. You know, so keep moving forward with those things. And if any other opportunities pop up, you know, you know, I'll be willing to, to do those things. And, you know, I'm 52 years old now, you can't let these young guys beat you. So you gotta keep yourself in shape.

• 3:20:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes, sir.

• 3:20:47Speaker 01

  You know, I was working, you know, work overseas, you know, with these special ops guys. And I'm like, how old are you? Forty-one. I say, okay, grandpa. So I got a grandpa for you, you know?

• 3:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, hey, that's awesome. Probably, probably a good place to wrap up. So if, if people wanna, you know, contact you for your speaking, I know you're, you're at joe p dot U S. That's right, right? For your, for your website?

• 3:21:17Speaker 01

  Yes, I got a website. It's got all my things, speaking on there, how to get a hold of me. And I, I've spoken to all different kinda groups, teams, different kind. I've spoke to, you know, corporations, I spoke to people at Quicken's Loans. So whoever wants to hear me run my mouth, I'll talk to.

• 3:21:34Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Echo, you got any questions?

• 3:21:36Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, rewind a little bit back to Afghanistan, the heroin poppies. Who's growing that and why?

• 3:21:44Speaker 01

  Um, the Taliban makes the farmers grow it. And the Taliban is growing that because that's their money source income.

• 3:21:54Speaker 02

  Okay, so who do they sell that to?

• 3:21:56Speaker 01

  A lot of that heroin goes to Europe. We get some of it over here on the United States, but the great majority of it goes to the European consumers.

• 3:22:06Speaker 02

  Okay, got it. So just like, you know, in Colombia and stuff like that, Afghanistan is yet just another hub for...

• 3:22:12Speaker 01

  Another hub, yes. And, you know, it's, you know, a real big country that consumes a lot of heroin is actually Russia, too. They have a pretty bad heroin problem there. But, you know, it's big money and that's, you know, what funds their insurgency. And the problem is now that we're gone out of Afghanistan and how it's... It's crazy there again. They're just growing uncontrolled. And like I said, when we were hitting them hard,

• 3:22:40Speaker 01

  we didn't eradicate it, but you can see it was having an effect. But now it's just, you know, bonsai, it's open now.

• 3:22:46Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 3:22:48Jocko Willink?

  That must be, as you look at like drugs, you've spent so much time in the DEA. When you hear people talk about legalizing drugs, what's your thoughts on that?

• 3:23:00Speaker 01

  And this is just my thoughts only.

• 3:23:04Speaker 01

  I've talked to numerous, numerous drug addicts. And the common drug that they start with is marijuana. And in my opinion, without a doubt, it's a gateway drug. And the marijuana that's out there now, it's not the same marijuana that even was five or seven years ago. It's so strong. You know, and it could lead to other things and, you know, we could have a whole debate on that. And every state that it's legalized, the auto accidents has really increased. You know, it's still illegal federally, you know, and for some medical conditions, you know, I can see that it could be useful for.

• 3:23:47Speaker 01

  But in my opinion, a lot of people who use it, say, under the guise of medical, it's just to get high. You know, and that's just my opinion.

• 3:23:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, Joe, you got any closing thoughts?

• 3:24:04Speaker 01

  Just, um, everybody out there just listening, you know, like I said, there's a will, there's a way. If you want to get something done, you can get it done. And just, you know, have that, have that mindset. And just keep going and if things get bad or down, tomorrow's a new day. Make it through that day, wake up the next day and give that next day hell.

• 3:24:23Jocko Willink?

  Awesome, man. Um, thanks for joining us. Appreciate you coming on here. Appreciate you sharing these lessons that you've learned. And, and most important, thank you for, thank you for your incredible service and your incredible sacrifice for our nation and thanks for what you're doing today, going around, talking to people, being here, just continuing to inspire people to overcome whatever, whatever adversity that they're facing. Uh, it's incredible example that you set for all of us. So, thank you for being here and thanks for everything you do.

• 3:24:56Speaker 01

  You're quite welcome. It's my honor and privilege.

• 3:25:00Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Joe Piersante has left the building.

• 3:25:05Jocko Willink?

  Echo, what'd you think of that?

• 3:25:07Speaker 02

  Well, I'll say, so I'm used to, and you mentioned this before too, we're very used, at this point, very used to, uh, you know, military guys coming up, their mindset, their experience and stuff like that. It was interesting, even though it wasn't a huge deviation, I don't think. But it was like enough of a deviation to seem like a big change to go law enforcement, you know? And it particular, particularly, okay, I didn't grow up around drugs at all. Like, I don't think I've ever even-

• 3:25:40Jocko Willink?

  You haven't been to 500 Meth House?

• 3:25:42Speaker 02

  No, sir.

• 3:25:43Jocko Willink?

  Meth Cook, what, Meth Labs?

• 3:25:45Speaker 02

  Labs. Uh, what, yeah, what do you call it? Cook?

• 3:25:48Jocko Willink?

  Cook Labs.

• 3:25:49Speaker 02

  K Labs or Clan, clandestine?

• 3:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Clandestine Lab Unit or something like that.

• 3:25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, no, the answer is no, I have not. Um, I've never seen meth before. I've never seen, I've seen coke before. I've never seen heroin before. I've seen weed before. Weed is the only one.

• 3:26:12Speaker 02

  I haven't I've seen a crack head with an empty crack pipe. I don't think I've ever seen real crack before.

• 3:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Check. Well, well, definitely. You could probably tell I I was exploring the the police side of things and especially, you know, the the investigation side of things and the setup because that's let's face it, that's all stuff that I'm not super familiar with and it's very interesting because it's all about human nature, you know, informants and dealers and police. It's, you know, that's why they make all those movies about that kind of stuff because there's drama there, right? There's humans interacting, you know, in really stressful, life-changing environments. And so, yeah, that definitely was interesting. And that's a, you know, he's he had a really, I mean, he's had a very interesting life, to say

• 3:27:02Jocko Willink?

  the least. I mean, you could probably write a book about that one big bust or the other big bust or the one big, you know, you could write a book about any of those things. And it would be very interesting and fascinating and you'd learn a lot. So he's done that over and over and over again, and then went to Afghanistan and then had a had a had a hit on his head in Honduras, right? I started thinking about, you know, being in like being in Iraq, when you're out on patrol, you think someone might try and kill you, you think that someone will try and kill you, but you think they'll try to kill like you or someone near you. It's not you. At least I never felt that way. I never felt like, you know,

• 3:27:44Jocko Willink?

  the bullets that say, I always make this joke, hey, you know, bullets say, they don't, you don't have a bullet with your name on it. You have a bullet that says to whom it may concern. He had a bullet, he had bullets, plural, with his name on them. I didn't really like that feeling. I mean, you want to talk about, you think I'm paranoid right now, which I am. I'm paranoid about stuff right now. If that was going on, bruh, I would be in a levels 12 alert mode. No one would be getting near me. It'd be pretty crazy to see, I think.

• 3:28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's something very specifically sinister about a plan to kill you.

• 3:28:21Jocko Willink?

  To kill you specifically. Right, right. Yeah, I don't think, no, I, yeah, no one's ever specifically said, we're gonna kill Jaco.

• 3:28:32Jocko Willink?

  Other than Dean Lister made that one uh

• 3:28:34Speaker 02

  CD, yes.

• 3:28:36Jocko Willink?

  He made the Kill Jocko CD, but that was just a CD. That was just music. He wasn't actually trying to kill me, so.

• 3:28:42Speaker 02

  It was somewhat of a conspiracy, though. I don't know. I will give him that. The um, the law enforcement part of it too, which, so a lot of times when you start to talk about Iraq, Afghanistan, and I understand, but it does seem like, okay, that's a crazy, that's a different time and a faraway place. But now he's over here talking about San Bernardino and Phoenix and like all this stuff and you're like, man, all this stuff right now is going on right now. Like probably pretty close to here, you know? So and currently going on right now.

• 3:29:09Jocko Willink?

  At this moment.

• 3:29:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:29:10Jocko Willink?

  Like at this moment, there's an informant that's sitting buying some drugs from somebody who's a bust about to happen right now.

• 3:29:16Speaker 02

  Something that I have, I have literally no exposure to. So to me, that is like, oh, that's kind of crazy. I did want to ask him about lifting.

• 3:29:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:29:25Speaker 02

  But we would have been here for a long time.

• 3:29:27Jocko Willink?

  That could have been a long, I thought you would at least want to compare bicep workouts with him.

• 3:29:31Speaker 02

  You know, my man is getting his lift on.

• 3:29:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure, for sure.

• 3:29:34Speaker 02

  Which actually, and I was gonna ask him too, but he said he's age 52 right now. And if you can look like that at 52, I mean, I don't know if he's getting ready for a show or something like that. But if you can look like that at 52, that's like, it not only is it eye opening, but it's like promising.

• 3:29:53Jocko Willink?

  You, you know what? Let's just go ahead and restate that. If you can look like that at 22 or 32 or 42.

• 3:29:59Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 3:30:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:00Speaker 02

  I'd be less surprised, but it does kind of set this a little bit better of a calibrated standard, you know? Kind of gives like, uh, those of us who want to maintain muscle mass, we'll say.

• 3:30:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:11Speaker 02

  Kind of gives you some hope on that one, you know? And you know, he's not weak either.

• 3:30:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure. Yeah, and he didn't go in too much, but I, but I, I, you know, read some stuff about him and some bios and stuff, but he won all kinds of like, you know, awards for football and uh, he's just a great athlete and just Jack and Steel. So for sure, for those of us that want to maintain muscle mass. Have you ever met someone that didn't? I guess occasionally you get maybe a wrestler, like a fighter or someone that's li- literally going down a weight class below their what they can cut. You know, sometimes people say, oh, I'm wrestling at 172, I'm gonna go down to 1. Sixty-two and I'm already shredded. So I'm going to lose muscle mass, right?

• 3:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Occasionally that might happen. I think when people get into some, if they get into some endurance sports, maybe like triathlon or something, they might want to lose some muscle mass, maybe?

• 3:31:07Speaker 02

  I, yeah, and I'm taught, wait, what are you asking? Like, is there?

• 3:31:10Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever known somebody that said, I'm really looking to find out how I can lose some muscle mass?

• 3:31:14Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. Not negative, but just for, for performance sake, yes, that's essentially it, but that's a rare case. Um, just life in general. They say after age, whatever, thirty or something like that, like things like degenerate pretty quick or whatever.

• 3:31:31Jocko Willink?

  That's weird.

• 3:31:32Speaker 02

  And then muscle mass is one of those things where if you just lifted, like you're gonna lose muscle mass as you get older, straight up. You're just gonna lose it.

• 3:31:41Jocko Willink?

  My daughter was telling me, my daughter's in college and she's studying, but she was, I was up with her and she was telling me that. She, she's out there, jack and steel and working out. She's got her little friend group. And they, which is cool because they're a little friend group. They're all, they're all into working out.

• 3:31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:31:58Jocko Willink?

  And she's training as she should. But she was telling me, because she's studying some kind of kinesiology, some kind of physiology. I keep forgetting what they call it now. When I was younger, so she's studying nutrition science and what we used to call exercise physiology was a minor people would get, right? They don't call it that anymore. I forget what they call it, but that's essentially.

• 3:32:22Speaker 02

  Kinesiology.

• 3:32:23Jocko Willink?

  Maybe that's what she, I think that.

• 3:32:25Speaker 02

  But that's different than exercise physiology.

• 3:32:27Jocko Willink?

  She's studying stuff, she's studying stuff about working out, kind of, right? Getting stronger.

• 3:32:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:32:33Jocko Willink?

  But she says, she was saying, hey, when you, if you don't lift, you immediately start like losing muscle.

• 3:32:40Speaker 02

  Degenerating.

• 3:32:41Jocko Willink?

  Degenerate.

• 3:32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's not, it's not like a, I mean, it doesn't matter like the process. At the end of the day, you're losing, you're losing your muscle and a lot, most of its functionality.

• 3:32:52Jocko Willink?

  Move it or lose it.

• 3:32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then resistance training, which is lifting is the best one. Um, is the thing that induces muscle like growth and or maintenance, depending how big your muscles are. So yeah, it makes sense.

• 3:33:05Jocko Willink?

  So basically go lift, please. Work out, you know, I mean, resistance, that's another thing my daughter was saying, she's saying, oh, your bones.

• 3:33:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:33:14Jocko Willink?

  Your bones, if you're not putting your bones under pressure.

• 3:33:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:33:18Jocko Willink?

  Now that's because you could argue, well, you know, running is good too, which it is.

• 3:33:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:33:22Jocko Willink?

  And you could say swimming, good too, that's good too. But you gotta put weight on your body. You gotta put resistance on your body to make your bones stronger.

• 3:33:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's the, uh, the point, I think overall that I get from that. So the beginning of what you're essentially saying is all kind of exercise has its like ma- major, by the way. When you compare it to no exercise, all exercises have major benefits, major, they're all different, though.

• 3:33:51Jocko Willink?

  So good, so good, uh, all right, so if you're working out, which you are, you probably need some, some fuel for you. Get some Jaco Fuel, Jaco Fuel dot com. You can get protein, you know, you could get protein from a lot of places. You get it from steak, recommended, chicken, recommended sushi, if you're Echo Charles.

• 3:34:10Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 3:34:11Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 3:34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:34:11Jocko Willink?

  What percentage of protein do you get from sushi, like seventy percent? And the other thirty percent is malt?

• 3:34:19Speaker 02

  I would literally say like literally probably like fifty percent, not recently not, but overall.

• 3:34:24Jocko Willink?

  Do you make sushi at your house ever?

• 3:34:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:34:26Jocko Willink?

  You just have to get it from a place.

• 3:34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know.

• 3:34:29Jocko Willink?

  Your place.

• 3:34:30Speaker 02

  Do you know?

• 3:34:30Jocko Willink?

  Do you know, do they know your order already? Do you order the same thing all the time?

• 3:34:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:34:33Jocko Willink?

  For your whole family, everyone's getting everything, like everyone's getting the same.

• 3:34:37Speaker 02

  Sarah will get different stuff.

• 3:34:38Jocko Willink?

  Residents, we need our food. Sarah goes variable.

• 3:34:41Speaker 02

  Literally like you're, I, I see your face and you're kind of making a joke, but I mean, kind of.

• 3:34:46Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, I'm being serious.

• 3:34:47Speaker 02

  Uh, the answer is yes.

• 3:34:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:34:49Speaker 02

  In fact, I call the place because there's a place literally walking distance from my house.

• 3:34:53Jocko Willink?

  They got caller ID?

• 3:34:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:34:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so they're like, it's in the oven, so.

• 3:34:57Speaker 02

  No, it's not in the oven.

• 3:34:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's getting cut raw.

• 3:35:00Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. Oh, yeah, I'll call, they'll be like, hi Echo, how are you? That's it, that's how they answer the phone.

• 3:35:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:05Speaker 02

  Then I'll be like, I want this, I gotta say my order and she already knows, boom, boom, boom, boom, yes.

• 3:35:09Jocko Willink?

  How much is the cost?

• 3:35:11Speaker 02

  Um, it depends. So some days they're closed or they close late. So if I or they close at like nine thirty. And there's another place that closes at midnight. So I'll get it delivered at midnight. That one's way more. That one's like a hundred bucks. Per just for me.

• 3:35:25Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 3:35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:35:26Jocko Willink?

  How about it the with for the whole family? No, how about just you at the regular spot?

• 3:35:32Speaker 02

  Oh, like sixty.

• 3:35:33Jocko Willink?

  So, okay.

• 3:35:35Speaker 02

  That's a good deal, given, given like what I get. They have good prices over there. Cocky sushi.

• 3:35:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's good. Well, you're probably gonna need some milk to wash that down.

• 3:35:43Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 3:35:44Jocko Willink?

  To get the sweetness. Cause sushi's not sweet, right?

• 3:35:47Speaker 02

  Is it? No, sir. It is not sweet. You can get some mochi ice cream afterwards.

• 3:35:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't like mochi ice cream.

• 3:35:53Speaker 02

  Dang, bro.

• 3:35:54Jocko Willink?

  I don't like that. It tastes like, um, tastes like uncooked, you know, bread around. What do they call that? What do they call? It tastes like uncooked bread wrapped around a piece of ice cream. Who made that up? Right? Who made that up, right?

• 3:36:09Speaker 02

  What makes that funny is how accurate you kind of are.

• 3:36:12Jocko Willink?

  It is, right?

• 3:36:12Speaker 02

  In a way, like if you look at a certain way, cause it is essentially like a dough.

• 3:36:17Jocko Willink?

  That's right, dough. Uncooked, uncooked dough, right?

• 3:36:20Speaker 02

  Like it's a, it's mochi. That's why. You know what mochi is? Have you ever had mochi? Just mochi? You know that wrapping that you're talking about? It's just that.

• 3:36:28Speaker 02

  Right? It tastes good. In Hawaii, you can get it. Oh, man, it's the best.

• 3:36:32Jocko Willink?

  But my family was like somehow amped about mochi. And so they got me amped. They got me hyped. This was a couple of years ago. They, oh, you know, we'll get this dessert. Like we had to go somewhere to get it, right? So we get in the car, we go, we're gonna get mochi. And I get mine. I'm like, I don't think mine's cooked.

• 3:36:50Jocko Willink?

  Cause it doesn't taste good, right? It tastes like dough. Like you said, it's dough.

• 3:36:54Speaker 02

  Is it mochi ice cream?

• 3:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, yeah, then there's, there's ice cream in the middle of it. But you wrap it in a piece of dough. What, what's the point?

• 3:37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 3:37:01Jocko Willink?

  Do that. Why would you do that?

• 3:37:02Speaker 02

  You are right, cause it's not that sweet either. So you're like, oh, I feel like mine's like.

• 3:37:06Jocko Willink?

  No, it's not. So anyways.

• 3:37:08Speaker 02

  All right. So if you're not into mochi ice cream and you, cause mochi ice cream is just ice cream really. So that's not healthy. Milk, on the other hand, healthy. Way more protein than mochi, mochi ice cream, by the way.

• 3:37:18Jocko Willink?

  Dough. It doesn't taste like dry flour dough.

• 3:37:21Speaker 02

  Is it odd that I'm like, there's a tiny, tiny part of me that's kind of insulted that you don't like mochi? Or mochi ice cream? Like, I'm like, you know, you ever have that feeling where it's like?

• 3:37:32Jocko Willink?

  One time, okay, so I'm a picky eater, right?

• 3:37:35Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 3:37:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm a picky eater. I don't like a bunch of different foods. I was out with my wife one time. This would no, she wasn't my wife. She was just a girl that I had met. But I was kinda into her like a lot, right?

• 3:37:46Speaker 02

  But you're talking about your current wife?

• 3:37:48Jocko Willink?

  My current wife, yes, my current wife back then. But we were going out and she wanted me to try something, something I knew I didn't like. I think it was yogurt. But not yogurt, you know, I'm an American. I am an American that grew up in the eighties. So, so yogurt to me was a freaking Danin yogurt, you know, filled with sugar and blueberries like sauce at the bottom. Like those things, those things are good because they're filled with sugar. So, but this was, we were, we were overseas. And I had already made the mistake of thinking that yogurt overseas equated to a Danin sugar filled yogurt that I ate when I was 12 years old and ate nine of them because they tasted good.

• 3:38:31Jocko Willink?

  But I realized that what other people ate yogurt, it was just this weird tasting, whatever with weird cucumbers in it or something. So anyways, my, my wife, who wasn't my wife yet, she's, oh, she's from England. So she's all nice or whatever. Oh, try this. And I go, no, it's okay. I don't really like that. She goes, no, just try it. She's, she had the same attitude that you're implying right now. Like she was kinda mad.

• 3:38:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:38:55Jocko Willink?

  As if, you know, as if you were saying, oh, you don't like air. Hey, but what do you mean? You don't like air. Of course you like air. She's like, oh, no, no, just try it. It's just, it's yogurt. It's good. I go, no, I don't like this, you know? No, just try it. And she started escalating.

• 3:39:10Speaker 02

  Kinda imposed it.

• 3:39:10Jocko Willink?

  So I'm like, okay, you know, I take a little spoonful. It's freaking disgusting. I knew it was. I mean, it was, you know, so, so, so mochi, whatever, ice cream isn't that bad. I can stomach it, but I'm not gonna make an effort to eat it. Now, milk, I will make effort to eat. Milk is, you, you get that, hey, I will do what it takes to get some milk up in here.

• 3:39:36Speaker 02

  I last night had a milkshake double with a ham, it wasn't ham, it was turkey sandwich. Boom.

• 3:39:43Jocko Willink?

  That's a full, that's a, that's a pleasurable scenario.

• 3:39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And mine was the basic milkshake, by the way.

• 3:39:49Jocko Willink?

  What's basic?

• 3:39:50Speaker 02

  Just the, the milk. It was lactose free milk.

• 3:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:39:53Speaker 02

  Cause I had it for some other stuff I was making and just regular milk. That's it. No, no banana, no nothing.

• 3:39:59Jocko Willink?

  But you got that little Sammy on and then you put down that milk. That's a quality scenario right there. You're good to go.

• 3:40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was like, no matter if I was into the extra protein at the time, and I was. But even if I wasn't, it's like, kinda like a cool little. Like a dessert, you know what I'm saying?

• 3:40:17Jocko Willink?

  Jaco Fuel dot com. Get the drinks at Wawa. You can get all of it at Vitamin Shop, appreciate it. Go to OriginUSA.com. We've got some cool stuff for sale there. Boots, jeans, t-shirts, most important jujitsu gees. I trained some, I trained some jujitsu up at Paragon, San Luis Obispo. Paragon Slow. It's so cool, man. You go anywhere right now and there's jujitsu and the people are awesome. Everyone's cool. It's just freaking legit. Great class, bu- bunch of awesome people there. So. And you know, you get, you know what's interesting? A lot of, a lot of Origin gees out there. A lot of Origin gees out there.

• 3:41:01Jocko Willink?

  People want to buy Origin gees because they know that they're made in America.

• 3:41:06Speaker 02

  Bro, I saw, uh, uh, I don't know if, what do you call it? A mini docu, it was video. About like American manufacturing, or it was about manufacturing. And they were just, it was talking about like, kind of the history of it or whatever, and the reasons that, you know, whether it be China or all these, but like. It's kinda like they, they kinda have to do the manufacturing for all these different reasons, and it depends on the product and all this stuff, right? But they kinda have to do it. Otherwise, it's kinda like, that was kinda the storyline. But then there were, there are a little, a few exceptions in there that they didn't go specific on, but they were just like. China's doing this, this, this because of this. And to do it anywhere else, it's like, it's, it's just unrealistic, you know, kind of a thing.

• 3:41:49Speaker 02

  But then all the exceptions, when I kinda like deduced all the exceptions, I was like, oh wait, that's why Origin can do all this stuff. They do have to make certain sacrifices, but with the sacrifices comes like more, basically the detriments that, that places like China or whatever they call it. What do they call it? Affordable labor?

• 3:42:07Jocko Willink?

  Affordable labor.

• 3:42:08Speaker 02

  It's freaking slave labor, bro. Yeah. Um, it's kinda like that, for example, but here you get. Basically each laborer or whatever they have like actual quality of life that, that reflects on the end product kind of a thing. So anyway, you can kinda go down the line and be like, oh, I see. But here's the thing, at the end of the, my point is like, what they do is like, dang, that's kind of. Not kind of, that's like. That's a very unique thing that they're doing.

• 3:42:36Jocko Willink?

  Who's they?

• 3:42:37Speaker 02

  Origin.

• 3:42:38Jocko Willink?

  Origin USA.

• 3:42:39Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 3:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Us, we.

• 3:42:40Speaker 02

  Us.

• 3:42:40Jocko Willink?

  This is a very unique thing that we are doing.

• 3:42:42Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:42:43Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, go to originusa.com for that. We also have a store. It's called Echo Store.

• 3:42:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a forwarding area. JacoStore.com. That's where you can write. That's where you can get your shirts and hats, your merch. It's good stuff on there too, by the way. It's not just like cheap, you know, what do you call, low cost, uh, to the, you know, lowest common denominator, uh, lowest bidder. What is that expression? It's not either, whatever the expression is, it's not that. It's quality.

• 3:43:14Jocko Willink?

  Good stuff.

• 3:43:14Speaker 02

  If you want to represent, represent hard and look good and feel good, by the way, yes, you can get all kinds of good stuff on there. JacoStore.com.

• 3:43:21Jocko Willink?

  Uh, subscribe to the podcast and also check out JacoUnderground.com. It's very interesting what's happening right now in the world.

• 3:43:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:43:30Jocko Willink?

  And, look, yeah, there's, there's a war going on right now, an insane war, right? A, a, a war that the likes of which we have not seen in a long time in, in Ukraine. So that's happening, but meanwhile, you got just crazy things happening all around the world. You got censorship happening. You got people shutting down websites, shutting down people from speaking. You've got control media influenced by the government, influenced by big tech, all in one. It's, it's crazy stuff happening right now. JacoUnderground.com, if you want to help out where we have a little, little bastion of our own. Where if we need to retreat to, to rebuild, we'll be in there.

• 3:44:13Jocko Willink?

  JacoUnderground.com, if you want to support that, you can check that out. We have a YouTube channel. We have a, Origin USA has a YouTube channel, so check both those out. Um, what else we got?

• 3:44:25Speaker 02

  Psychological Warfare. It's a little album on Wednesday. You can, uh, you can download this album if you, and if you have moments of weakness, it's basically Jaco telling you how to get past those moments of weakness. Very helpful on those moments, trust me. Even if you don't have a lot of them, you can just have one.

• 3:44:41Jocko Willink?

  Occasional one.

• 3:44:42Speaker 02

  Reduce it to zero.

• 3:44:44Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you're addicted to mochi.

• 3:44:47Jocko Willink?

  Flipsidecanvas.com Dakota Meyer, my brother, he's got cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books. Check them out if you want to. Especially check out the Warrior Kid books. That's where you can have a huge impact. You can have a huge impact on a kid's life just by getting that kid those books. So, check that out. Eshlonfront.com. It's our leadership consultancy. We have an event called The Muster. We have one in Dallas. It's sold out. So, sorry about that. But we have other ones. You can check that out. We have online training at Extreme Ownership Academy, extremeownership.com. A bunch of information on there about being a leader and about being a human being.

• 3:45:30Jocko Willink?

  It'll help you with everything in your life. So, check that out. If you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help with their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. Go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org if you want to help out. Also, check out Heroes and Horses, Micah Fink. He's got a bunch of awesome stuff going on. Once again, to contact Joe Piersante, his website is joe p.us. And he's also got a LinkedIn account, which is Joe Piersante. And he's got

• 3:46:09Jocko Willink?

  a Facebook as well, which is Joe Piersante I B B F.

• 3:46:19Speaker 02

  BBF Pro.

• 3:46:21Jocko Willink?

  Pro. Yep. International Bodybuilding Federation Pro. So, check that out. As far as Echo and I go, we're both on Twitter. We're both on the Gram. We're both on Facebook. Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jaco Wink. But you know, just look out, because you step in there, you're going to be fighting the algorithm. That's what's happening. You're going to be fighting the algorithm. So, be careful when you step in there. Thanks once again to Joe Piersante for coming on, for just setting an incredible example of tenacity and of perseverance. And I mean, just him saying, him putting the perspective of becoming blind, becoming wounded, becoming blind.

• 3:47:07Jocko Willink?

  And he said, "Yeah, no use crying over spilled milk." To put those two in the same sentence and actually behave that way.

• 3:47:16Jocko Willink?

  Truly inspiring person. So, thank you, Joe, for coming on and thanks to all the military personnel out there around the world that stand up and fight for freedom and liberty. And I know there's some of you out there right now that are truly standing up and fighting for freedom and liberty. So, thank you for holding the line and thanks to our police and law enforcement and tonight especially, thanks to the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Agency, men like Joe Piersante that are out there trying to protect us all from the evil of drugs and the violent crime that it produces. And also thanks to firefighters, paramedics, Border Patrol, EMTs, dispatchers,

• 3:48:01Jocko Willink?

  correctional officers, Secret Service, all the first responders. Thank you for your service here on the home front.

• 3:48:13Jocko Willink?

  And

• 3:48:16Jocko Willink?

  everyone else out there.

• 3:48:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, what excuses do you possibly have? Right? If someone like Joe can go through what he's gone through, can suffer what he's suffered, can still go out there every day and get after it. And you know, he said something. He said, "You can't make a case sitting behind a desk."

• 3:48:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's some pretty good advice, not just for law enforcement, but for life. What you have to do is go out there every single day and get after it. Until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.