163: The Trident: A Symbol of Strength, Courage, and Humility. Overcoming Adversity w/ Jason Redman

0:00:00 – Opening 0:05:24 – Jason Redman, “The Trident”. 1:55:18 - Wounded. 2:05:00 - Recovery and Aftermath 2:42:32 – Final Thoughts and take-aways. 2:44:44 – Support: How to Stay on THE PATH. 3:01:52 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 163 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  I am bleeding out.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  I can feel my life ebbing away as blood seeps from my body into the Iraqi soil.

• 0:22Jocko Willink?

  A few brown weeds splashed crimson now are crushed around me as I lay sprawled on my back in the middle of this ambush.

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  The weeds offer no concealment.

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm in the open, alone, and wounded.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  Sizzles of pain hit me in waves like pulses of electricity.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  A bullet has torn off my left arm.

• 0:51Jocko Willink?

  After I get hit, I reach over to grab my left hand.

• 0:57Jocko Willink?

  It isn't there.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  I hunt around feeling only the gear on the far left side of my body. No arm.

• 1:07Jocko Willink?

  I try to move the fingers on my left hand, but my mind sends signals to a station that doesn't exist.

• 1:14Jocko Willink?

  Now I can't feel anything but pain.

• 1:19Jocko Willink?

  Bullets kick dirt in my face. Through my night vision goggles, I see green blooms of light strobing the darkness, muzzle flashes from automatic weapons. Ten meters away, an enemy machine gun opens fire again.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  It is a belt-fed, Russian-made, crew-served weapon, probably a PKM.

• 1:43Jocko Willink?

  They sound like giant zippers tearing open when the gunners go cyclic, like now.

• 1:51Jocko Willink?

  The air around me erupts with sharp cracks, the miniature sonic booms of 762mm bullets speeding past me at 2,500 feet per second.

• 2:02Jocko Willink?

  The terrorist gunner lowers his aim.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  A spurt of dust blows across my face again. Several bullets pass so close to my head that I feel shockwaves as they go by.

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  To the left, an AK-47 assault rifle opens up, then another. I'm pinned in a crossfire without cover or concealment. A crippled, sitting duck in a kill zone at least 100 meters long and 75 deep.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  With my right hand, I key the radio handset I have mounted on my chest. "Troops in contact, troops in contact," I call to my command. "We have three severely wounded, including me."

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Static greets my words.

• 2:50Jocko Willink?

  I can't duck. I can't crawl away. There's no place to hide. All I can do is ignore the incoming fire and stay focused.

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  The PKM gunner finds the range. Bullets crack around me.

• 3:09Jocko Willink?

  Dirt flies.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  The terrorist eases up on the trigger, but only for a second. I hear him unleash another burst. Then...

• 3:24Jocko Willink?

  I hear nothing at all.

• 3:31Jocko Willink?

  And those right there are some excerpts from the opening chapter of a book called "The Trident", which is written by a retired SEAL officer by the name of Jason J. Redmond.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  And this book does an incredible job, not only of bringing the reader to the front lines in some pretty chaotic combat situations, but equally important, it brings the reader into the challenges of leadership and the challenges of life, especially the challenges of facing significant adversity.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  And Jay's book humbly splays those challenges wide open for all to see. And that humility from Jay is what makes this book so beneficial. He tells us plainly and bluntly of his personal triumphs and tragedies, his victories, and his defeats, and how he eventually found success and overcame by traveling the path of humility.

• 5:05Jocko Willink?

  And since I have the honor of actually knowing Jay, he has been kind enough to come by this evening and talk about his experiences with us. So with that, Mr. Jay Redman, thanks for stopping by, brother.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Jaco, brother, Echo, thank you, thank you both for having me on.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  Awesome to be, awesome to have you sitting here, man.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Hey, man, honored to still be here, blessed, that's for sure, you know, like I tell so many people, I'm living on a second chance, you know, you and I got too many brothers who are not, I don't know why the big man decided to give me a chance, but I'm making the most of it.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding. So I want to try and start, you know, a little bit at the beginning, so people get a little bit familiar with where you are, everyone always wants to know where people are, where people came from, how they grew up, I'm going to the book right here. "I came from a family with a rich tradition of service, so in retrospect, this made sense. My dad was a US Army airborne rigor at Fort Campbell during the Vietnam War. My paternal grandfather earned a distinguished flying cross while piloting a B-24 Liberator bomber over the flak-filled skies of Hitler's Europe. I also had a great uncle who flew fighter aircraft in the Southwest Pacific during World War II. He made the ultimate sacrifice in battle against the Japanese."

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  I dreamed of adding to that legacy, a life of combat, medals and service. I was young and naive and had a long road to travel before I could truly understand what my grandfather and great uncle gave for the country. But that idealism became a very big part of me. I wanted to carry a rifle for a living. My dad watched this desire grow in me and decided to focus it. My freshman year in high school, he sat me down in our tiny living room and said, you know, Jay, we had these guys come through airborne school. They were US Navy, called SEALs. They jumped out of airplanes, swam, they blew stuff up.

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  Given how you love the water, maybe you ought to look into them.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  So your dad planted the seed, huh?

• 7:21Speaker 02

  He did, yeah, at a young age and you know, this was ninety, probably, I'm sorry.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Probably eighty-nine, you know, eighty-eight, eighty-nine. So back then, you really couldn't find hardly anything about the SEAL teams. And

• 7:41Speaker 02

  this was at a point in time where GI Joe was big. I mean, I'm a, you know, twelve, thirteen year old kid into that. And then I was probably about fourteen when my dad told me about the SEAL teams. And started researching it, found almost nothing. And by sheer happenstance, one of the guys in our church was a huge special operations buff. He was a guy that was unable to go in the military. He had had polio actually when he was a kid, but he was just infatuated by it. And he had done tons of research and he actually had collected some things about the SEAL teams. He had an old. Soldier of Fortune magazine.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was awesome.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  It's so different nowadays. You know, nowadays you just Google it.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day, you had to be lucky enough to know some dude in church who happened to have a copy of the issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine. Is that still a thing? Is Soldier of Fortune still out there?

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Dude, it actually is. As a matter of fact, somehow in some weird twist of fate, I ended up being on the cover of Soldier of Fortune after the book came out. And it was the most bizarre thing because now, you know, you're in the military and you look at this thing, you kind of laugh at Soldier of Fortune. It's a little bit of a, you know, really focuses on probably the gung ho aspect of SOF as opposed to.

• 9:00Jocko Willink?

  You came full circle.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, full circle, that's for sure.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  Full circle, cover of Soldier of Fortune.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  It was, it was pretty funny, but um, but that magazine and that journey of coming to understand who these guys were that you really couldn't find much about them. It just drew me in even more. And the only thing, the core thread that I found over and over again was toughest training in the military. And you know, I was a young kid. I was a small kid and I just had this inner fire that if you told me I couldn't do something, it just drove me even more to want to do it. And uh, everyone, you know, at that point in my life, I was probably four foot 11 and about 95 pounds. So when I told people I was going to become a SEAL, they laughed me out of the room.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  And that just fueled me even harder. And I set my sights on that dream and that's where I was going.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  And you, you, some of the things you did, you started playing football, you started getting involved in sports to make sure you were physically fit and all that. So that was part of the driving factor and part of, and a good way to sort of prepare, at least in a minimum way for buds.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wanted to build a mindset. I knew that fitness, I knew that being part of a team, I knew that pushing myself in different areas. So I started wrestling and I started playing football. And I was the smallest guy on our team, but man, I just, I love football. I've always loved football. My dad had always told me, no, you're too small. You're too small, you're going to get hurt. And so probably my 10th grade year, I said, you know, I don't care what you're telling me. I'm going out for the team. And thankfully, we lived in a really small town. And I think they would take anyone and they looked at me and they say, well, you know, we can at least use you as a tackling dummy. And I said, Roger that, I'll do it, man. You know, I will, you know, I'll hit somebody as hard as my 95 pounds can.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  And got out there and just, I loved the sport, you know, I was, you know, not a starter in any way, but I was out there every day just grinding and I'd try and lay the hardest hits I could on people. And I played receiver and cornerback.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:09Jocko Willink?

  Now, I was also a little bit, as I, as I read through the book and was kind of piecing together what you were like when you were a kid. I got to this point here, and it's just kind of a little bit of a different direction. Going back to the book, at the same time, I fell in with the wrong crowd. I got a job my junior year and my work friends were drinkers. I started sneaking out of the house by sliding down the antenna pole outside my window. I'd meet with friends, we'd go drink, I'd stagger home drunk at odd hours of the night, scaling the side of the house with the help of that pole. My family tried to nudge me into course correction, but I had a chip on my shoulder and refused to listen, especially to my dad. Things got worse. My relationship with my father and stepmom spiraled out of control into the ground.

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  Months of this wore us all down as that slide continued.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  That, that happens, right? I mean, that straight up happens to kids, especially boys. And I think it has to do with, I'm going to prove myself. That's what I think. Hey, I'm going to prove myself. And one of the ways that you prove yourself is by proving that you're willing to sacrifice in a way. And what better way, when you're 16 years old, to prove is like, oh, watch what I'll do. I'll drink, I'll drink this whole bottle. And I think that leads to young males doing a lot of dumb stuff. And it sounds like you're right on board.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely. You know, the thing that saved me, though, this is where I got really lucky is I was smart enough and disciplined enough to understand that if I got myself in any kind of major trouble, I wouldn't be able to go in the SEAL teams. So, like I said, we lived in a real small town in rural North Carolina and, you know, drugs were prevalent and a lot of my friends were starting to get into that. And I just said, man, if I get, you know, that'll stop me from going in the Navy. So at least there was kind of a line I wasn't willing to cross. And I'm fortunate, there were a couple of times we got ourselves in trouble where, you know, we were right on the edge of the law being

• 13:13Speaker 02

  involved and, you know, we managed to dodge that bullet. But yeah, I wanted to get out there. I wanted to fit in. So I think it's a combination of both peer pressure as a young man, you know, I want to fit in with this group. But I have my hopes and dreams. So this is the direction I'm going. And I think that's where a lot of young men get off track. They want to fit in so much that they give up on their hopes and dreams and they get sucked down this path. For me, I had such laser focus on what I wanted to do that it at least kept me in check.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I will say this, just to kind of add to that point, from my perspective, if you've got someone that's aspiring to do something, you know, higher, the people that don't have those aspirations are more than happy to try and crush that dream for them and more than happy to pull them down. And so I've found that throughout life. If you have some high aspiration that you're trying to achieve, or you see someone that's got high aspirations that they're trying to achieve, you can watch the people around them. If they're not good people, we'll try and rip those things and pull them down and pull them off that track. Scary.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  And it's unequivocally true. I mean, it's one of the tenants, you know, I now speak on something I call the Pentagon of Peak Performance. And the fifth level is, or I'm sorry, the fourth level is social leadership. So how we lead ourselves, how we build our ring of friends and influencers. And you're unequivocally right, a great influencer and entrepreneur I've been recently working with, he gives an amazing analogy of he was up in Alaska on a vacation. He was walking the beach and there was a fisherman that was fishing with a net and catching crabs and he was putting the crabs in a bucket and, you know, it's early morning and the guy's name Bedros Koulian. And Bedros was watching this happen, you know, early in the morning, looked in the bucket and

• 15:05Speaker 02

  there was about 10 crabs and probably about, you know, five gallon bucket and probably about eight inches of water. And he kept watching as one crab would climb up and grab on to the edge of the bucket and try and pull itself out. And he like tells the fisherman, hey, hey, man, I want to let you know, you're going to lose one of your crabs. And the fisherman doesn't even turn around, look at him, keeps drawing his net. And he goes, watch what happens. And Bedros kind of steps back and he looks down into the bucket and he watches as all the other crabs grab on to that other crab and pull him back down. And he had this epiphany moment of the circles of influence he had in his life. And he was like, oh my God, I have crabs in

• 15:46Speaker 02

  my life. He's like, I have people that I want to climb up and be better and they are pulling me down. And it is unequivocally true. I mean, it's something I brought up to the Bud students yesterday. I said, if you want to be the best seal, you need to surround yourself with the guys who are driven, disciplined, and they're pushing themselves to the edge. If you want to go to the next level, you need to surround yourself with the guys who are either already there or they aspire to get there. Because if you're going to surround yourself with people who are content to just drink and not move forward at all, they're going to try and pull you into that circle. Because they're going to feel threatened that you don't want to do what they're doing. And they want you to assimilate with them versus striving forward and being successful. It's unfortunate. It's just kind of a way of life.

• 16:31Jocko Willink?

  It's a horrible, it's a horrible situation. So watch out for it because it's everywhere. So how, and then you end up, so you graduate high school and go to recruiter and boom, right? I mean, any, any other particular things around the recruitment process?

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, the recruitment process was actually, I, I actually kind of got off track a little. So I went to the recruiting station. I, as soon as I decided I wanted to be a SEAL, I went to the recruiting station. So I was 15 years old, this 95 pound weakling. And walk into the recruiting station and I'm like, hey, I want to be a SEAL. And there was an old crusty, I mean, he was like an old school, probably 25 year E6. And just crusty as all get out, you know, Boatswain's mate. And that dude basically laughed me out of the office. Was like, get out of here, stop wasting our time, you know? You, you couldn't even carry the paddle, much less the boat, you know?

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Get out of my office. And it didn't faze me in the least. I came back like next week and was like, I want to be a SEAL. And they, this guy chased me out of the office. I came back about four or five times and he just continued to not even give me the time of day. So finally, I was, you know, kind of tired of that.

• 17:46Jocko Willink?

  By the way, things are real rough when a recruiter won't give a kid the time of day.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  They're trying to make that quota. This dude was hardcore.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Yeah. Well, I mean, you think about it, 25 year E6. Yeah. He was at a point, he didn't really care. So, uh, you know, when I got to the point, uh, I came back again, probably about eight months later. And at this point, I'd, you know, really started to train. I was focused on it. I didn't let him deter me. And I came back and he had left just by sheer happenstance. He was gone. And there was a new recruiter in there, a guy by the name of Henry Horn. Um, Henry, if you're out there and you listen to this, I've never been able to track him down and thank him. But Henry took me in and was like, yeah, man, absolutely. Sit down. And they had this video, you may remember this. Be someone special. And it was the cheesiest, it was like 1980s video at it, at its best.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  And, uh, and it was this high speed, you know, the SEALs come in on a helicopter and they get out and they take down this target and take out these terrorists. And, you know, the, the tagline is be someone special. And I just ate it up, man. And, uh, came back on a regular basis and, uh, and Henry was fantastic. He told me, these are the things you need to do, you know, ASVAD, fitness, this is what's going to happen. So went to, uh, went to go sign up, you know, right as I was turning 17, I was going to do the delayed entry program. And I went to go sign up and went, um, Well, I gotta back up for a second. There was a glitch. I'm sorry, I got my facts backwards

• 19:21Speaker 02

  here. I actually, because of the deal with the Krusty E6, I was, and him being a block to me, I changed my mind and decided to go Army at first. Henry happened after this. I'm sorry, I got that backwards. Henry happened after this. And when I went back, I decided to join the Army. I said, well, fine. My dad, you know, he was Army, the Rangers, I'll go the Green Beret route. So I went to MEPS to do my intake screening for the Army delayed entry program, and I failed the physical because when I was a kid, I had ruptured my eardrum, and I had a lot of scar tissue on my eardrum. And the Army said, oh, well, you're not going to be able to equalize. So they tried to convince me to still go in. They were like,

• 20:05Speaker 02

  oh, well, you don't have to be an airborne Ranger. You know, you can do this, or you can do that. You can drive trucks. And I was like, no, man, that's not what I want to do. So I left, and I didn't sign up. And probably a couple months went by. And then that's when I came back, and the Krusty E6 was gone, and Henry Horn was there and really helped pave that path. So, kind of an interesting road, and I think the lesson is this, is there's always going to be roadblocks that are going to deter you from your dreams. You know, don't let it stop you. Keep driving forward. Because by, you know, if I just listened to that guy right from the beginning, you know, I never would have been a SEAL.

• 20:42Jocko Willink?

  So you go in, you show up at Bud's. I like this as a good, going back to the book, your intro to Bud's. "One night, I was ordered to escort a member of Class 199 back to his room building in 602. He'd quit the program, and the Navy required an escort for anyone who rang the bell during Hell Week. I went off to find him in the darkness. He was waiting for me, a smaller guy like me wrapped in a blanket. He was shivering so badly, he seemed ready to fly apart. He'd put the blanket over his head like a hood, giving him a monastic look. He said little, so we made our way to the barracks in silence. I walked alongside

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  him, fit to burst, wanting to get any details on what I'd soon experience. Finally, I couldn't stand it anymore. As he reached his door and opened it, I blurted out..." So come on, man, what was it like? He turned to me and looked me in the eyes. His room's night light cast an orange glow across his face. His skin was waxing and he looked hollowed out. At length, he answered in a slow, earnest tone. Dude, it was so cold, I would have poured gasoline all over myself and lit a match just so I could have been warm for a few seconds before I burned to death. He stepped back without another word and slammed his door.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  For the first time, I wondered what I'd gotten myself into.

• 22:11Jocko Willink?

  That's legit right there. Intro to BUDs.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  So there's a, uh, so not only did that blow my mind, uh, you know, there's a funny little side story. We actually had to edit that. So the fire thing, uh, we actually created because what he actually, he told me that exact thing. The, so the, the dialogue is the same. But what he told me was about as vulgar as all get out. It would have made the book rated triple X. And, uh, and it was so mind blowing. Cause I mean, you know, the fire thing, we tried to come up with what is as impactful as possible, but it does not convey, I'll let your imaginations run wild, but what he told me and he slammed the door in my face left me so stunned that I was like, what the hell did I get myself into? I mean, it was, but we could not put it in the book.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  I mean, it was so bad. I mean, I was like, my kids could never read that.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  Check, check. So, uh, anyways, I mean, then you get to Bud, you go through BUDs, um, and BUDs is cool. And you, you write about BUDs a little bit in here, but you don't spend a bunch of time on it because as we know, BUDs is not a huge part of our careers in the SEAL teams. And I'm going to jump right, right ahead to the book here. Seven years and three South American deployments into my career as a SEAL. I found myself in Fort Knox, Kentucky, working as a basic warfare instructor with a small group of fellow operators. We worked 18 hour days, but being 20 something and single, once the gear was stowed, all we wanted to do was get out on the town and blow off some steam. Work hard, play hard.

• 23:49Jocko Willink?

  That was our pre nine 11 mantra.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  The 90s teens.

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  Work hard, play hard. I always have to explain to people how cool it is being in the teams, being an E5 in the teams. Were you an E5 or an E6 at this point?

• 24:09Speaker 02

  I was an E5.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  E5 in the teams. And I was telling the story the other day, when I got to SEAL Team One, there was, I was a new guy and I was quietly walking through the locker room, trying to keep my eyes averted from looking at anyone. And I hear this guy go, "Ah, yes!" And I was like, "Oh, my God." And it was this like barbaric yell from this human being who was, and then I looked at him and he was this monster guy, probably 6'7", 6'6", 280 pounds of tattooed flesh. And someone's like, "What happened?" And he goes, "I just made E5. Master Chief is far as I'm concerned."

• 24:58Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, you know, you get to be an E5 in a SEAL platoon, you know, you've got, if you, if you're not looking for a lot of responsibility, you won't find it, but you won't, you know, you're a little bit above some of the crap work, so it's not a bad place to be. And that's where you were, doing, doing deployment after deployment, three deployments to South America, and doing the training gig.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:22Jocko Willink?

  Were you, were you at Training Cell at the team at this time, or was it already consolidated?

• 25:26Speaker 02

  No. Each team had its own individual training still.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  Yep. I, I did that too. And this is also the time during one of these trips where you met your future wife?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  That's right. So, you know, you know, the SEAL teams are an interesting place because being an all male unit, you know, the only time you have an opportunity to meet people, ladies, is typically in the bars. And because we did such a good job, you know, I tell people,

• 25:53Speaker 02

  The mindset of the early teams really was, you know, you know, Marcinco captured that mindset in his book, The Rogue Warrior, but it's interesting to see post nine 11 how guys are so laser focused on combat, you know, but for us, you know, literally, we trained hard and then, you know, you were actually looked down on if you didn't go out and party and burn it down to like four in the morning and then get an hour of sleep and get up and start training again the next day, you know, which was just stupid, you know, you weren't operating at optimal efficiency. But that was just the way it was. That was life and accepted it and drove through. So yeah, I was fortunate enough. One night we went into a crazy huge bar that somebody had scouted out

• 26:35Speaker 02

  and said, Hey, man, this is a target rich environment and the Phoenix Hill Tavern and went in there and yeah, beautiful blonde walked in and I was like, I need to get to know this young lady. So.

• 26:50Jocko Willink?

  You did all right, man. Along, along the course of this, you applied for the Seaman Admiral Program, which is the same program I did. I think you were a couple of years behind me. And we're going to the book. I had applied to the Seaman Admiral Program, something the Navy started to encourage top performing enlisted to become officers. Only 50 candidates a year were accepted back then. So the competition was fierce. I gained a slot and the Navy sent me to college just in time to miss the outbreak of the war. I watched the towers fall. I recognized the magnitude of the moment and left school in a daze, fully aware that our country was heading to war with three years of college ahead of me. I feared I'd miss my

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  chance to be a part of it. A few days later, I drove back to my old SEAL team to see my former CO and mentor, Commander Vince Peterson. He had stuck his neck out for me more than once and had been instrumental in getting me a shot, a slot in the Seaman Admiral Program. I told him I wanted to drop out of school so I could get back to a platoon and help with the war effort. Commander Peterson sat listening quietly as I explained my desire to come back. He was a legend in the SEAL teams. He had been a former Marine before joining the Navy and headed to SEAL training at the age of 36. He was highly respected both up and down the chain of command. In my leadership fence analogy, most men fell on one side of the fence or the other,

• 28:16Jocko Willink?

  while there were those small few who had the unique ability to stand on top and move back and forth. For Vince Peterson, there was no fence. As I sat down with him and asked him to put me back in the platoon, he looked me dead in the eye and said, "Red, this will not be a short war. It's going to go on for years and we're going to need strong warriors and leaders for upcoming battles. You need to stay in school, then come back and lead."

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 28:50Jocko Willink?

  I...

• 28:52Jocko Willink?

  When I read that, of course, I thought about guess what I was doing when 9/11 happened? I was in college as well, on the same program, I was probably a year or two ahead of you. And guess what I did? Same thing. I called the detailer, who was a friend of mine who I had worked for, and I said, "Hey, I don't care about college, I'll do online. I don't care about any of this, send me back to a SEAL team right now, please." And you know who this individual too is as well, and I know who this guy is, and he told me the exact same thing. He said, "This war is gonna last a long time." Yeah. Of course, I didn't believe it. And it, you know...

• 29:37Jocko Willink?

  And this is what's interesting, I recently saw the guy that I called, and I saw him and his wife, who I know his wife and she's a great person. And I was telling her this, telling her this, and you know what she said? It was so awesome to hear. She goes, "Do you know how many calls he got that day?"

• 29:56Jocko Willink?

  So there was zero unique about Jaco calling the SEAL Detailer and saying, sir, get me back to a team right now. Every single guy that wasn't in a SEAL team in the teams, or everyone that a B-bill of any kind was calling the Detailer and saying, get me back to a team.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Put me in, coach.

• 30:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it goes to that mentality you were talking about. We were, we were just training and training and training and it'd be like training for a game and training for the Super Bowl and never getting to play.

• 30:30Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 30:33Jocko Willink?

  you, so you actually did a great job in college and you, you were in ROTC too, right?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  I was.

• 30:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. See, I got the real scam deal where I just went to college and wasn't wearing a uniform. I was like far enough ahead of you that I got the deal.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, you were in the original program. So you got commissioned and went to school as an officer. So you would get paid, officer paid just to go to school.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  I got the most ridiculous deal. I apologize to the taxpayers.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, and the Navy quickly realized, okay, yeah, we screwed this one up.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  I think it took them two iterations.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was in, because I think I was in the third iteration, third or fourth, but no, we actually were required to be a part of ROTC. So, you know, every day we were, we were up early and we, and the Hampton Roads ROTC at that time was the largest ROTC consortium on the East Coast. So you had Hampton University, you had ODU, Old Dominion University, and you had Norfolk State. And they had at that time, probably about, I think we were at about 330 midshipmen and officer candidates. And we had a huge contingent of ex-enlisted. So there was actually, it was probably six or seven SEALs in the program there at that time. So it was

• 31:45Speaker 02

  good. I had teammates to go through with. But yeah, man, we played all the games. And real quickly, I realized, I said, okay, you know, they want it, you, you've got to step up. You know, they're going to put you into these different positions. And a lot of the guys that had come there before me were kind of like, no, dude, we don't want to do anything. We don't want to be involved. We just want to, you know, a lot of times typical team guys. We want to create our own little circle of, of trust. And we don't want to let anybody else in the circle. And I was like, nah, man. We gotta change that mindset. You know, there's young kids here that we could influence to become future frogmen, I said, and uh, cause there was no, they had all these communities at the school. They had, uh, they had, you know, surface warfare community. They had

• 32:26Speaker 02

  the aviation club. They had the submariner club, but there was no special operations club. And there were young kids who were interested. And I said, we need to create this, you know, we have the experience, we can help these kids. And then the other thing I said is I said, well, you know, I'm gonna try and uh, step up into leadership positions. And I think all the rest of us should do the same. And uh, and thankfully, you know, it worked. We all jumped on board and you know, I was fortunate. I did excel in school and I ended up leaving the school as the student battalion commanding officer, uh, prior to being commissioned.

• 33:00Jocko Willink?

  Damn. I was the regimental commander at officer candidate school. And that was, you know, the number one position.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  And

• 33:12Speaker 02

  The man.

• 33:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was talking to my mom and I mentioned to her, which I shouldn't have done because my mom just doesn't understand. I was like, well, yeah, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm the regiment, cause at the last couple of weeks of OCS and I, she's like, oh, so what's going on now? Cause then I could call, cause you weren't allowed to call. So I said, well, we're doing this and I'm in charge of the thing here. It's called the regimental commander. And she goes, oh, what do you, so you're the commander? And I said, yeah, I'm the regimental commander. And she goes, what are you in charge of? And I said, I am overseeing the cleaning of every toilet at officer candidate school and it's going quite well. So.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Spotless.

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  Spotless. Uh, you, so you do a great job in college and now you go back to the teams after college going back to the book. Instead of having an advantage, I found myself left behind. Everything had changed and as our platoon went through its training cycle, I always felt like I was playing catch up. I made mistakes and exercises that I've never made in the nineties. It made me edgy and tense, feeling the pressure of trying to be a leader and drinking from that training fire hose at the same time. I got tight and held on even harder, which only made things worse. In our time off, I drowned my frustrations in booze and routinely routinely made an ass of myself.

• 34:40Jocko Willink?

  None of this was helping my credibility with the men I was supposed to be leading, but I didn't see that at the moment. It also didn't help that Senior Chief Pete Carey and I despised each other almost from our introduction. He was a good skilled SEAL and I respected his tactical abilities, but I felt his people skills were lacking. Rough and abrasive at times, his leadership style clashed with mine, which set us on a collision course. While I privately railed against Carey, I was too blinded by arrogance to see my own flaws. I wasn't making a good transition to being an officer. I'd been enlisted for so long, I identified with my enlisted teammates more as one of them rather than as one of their leaders.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  It put me too far away from the fence. The Senior Chief and the A O I C are supposed to work closely together to make sure the team functions effectively. The A O I C, and that's Assistant Officer in Charge, is also supposed to learn from the Chief's tactical experience. That never happened in our platoon. Instead, I refused to humble myself and listen to the Senior Chief. As the pre-deployment workup wore on, I wouldn't, we couldn't conceal our dislike for each other. The feud spilled out into the open and culminated with a public screaming match in Europe after a tactical exercise with some NATO allies.

• 36:03Jocko Willink?

  In the weeks that followed my arrival within the team, our relationship became the cancer in our locker room. By the time we got to Afghanistan, we refused to be civil to each other. I had lost touch entirely with what it meant to be a leader. During the daily briefs, we would openly take shots at each other. I talked about this dynamic many times with my superior, the platoon's officer in charge. One day, the O I C finally said, "Look, you two have to work this out. I'm tired of it." We never could or did work things out. Different platoons structure things in different ways. In our platoon, senior enlisted members acted as fire team leaders with chiefs and some more experienced officers acting as the assault force commanders. I'd been assigned as neither.

• 36:44Jocko Willink?

  If I'd taken a step back, I might have realized that I hadn't given my bosses much confidence in my leadership, but I didn't see that. I only felt slighted and embittered.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Rough tour.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but all brought on by myself. I mean, you know, the dynamics obviously created some interesting, you know, problems, but, you know, as often happens, I wasn't taking ownership of my own actions. And instead was just kind of trying to point fingers externally. Well, you know, it's Pete Carey's fault that these things are happening when the reality was

• 37:25Speaker 02

  80% of it was me, you know, 80% of it. So it's one of the things that I talk to a lot of individuals about. I think you see it in special operations. I know you and I have both have spoken to professional sports teams. I see it there where young men accelerate quickly and achieve this elite status and then get a little bit enamored with who they are and their abilities and lose sight of the end state, which is to be an effective part of the team, to do their job so ruthlessly well, it plays this huge part in the team. And at the end of the day, whether you're in professional sports, whether you're in the SEAL teams, or even whether you're in some elite business, you

• 38:07Speaker 02

  know, that's what has to happen. And I lost sight of that. And more focused externally instead of internally. And really, now I speak a lot on what my three rules of leadership is. And the foundational, the first rule is lead yourself. And how you lead yourself, 80% of leadership is leading yourself. You know, you talk so much about discipline. It's how you discipline yourself. It's how you structure yourself. It's how you push yourself. It's how you set the example. And in doing so, it automatically leads to rule number two, lead others. It almost makes it easy to lead others because you've already done all the work. They want to follow you because you're setting the

• 38:48Speaker 02

  example. I kind of had it backwards. I was trying to lead others, but I wasn't leading myself. And it's almost impossible to do. And I meet all these people, you know, that have gone out in business and talked to them. They say, Jay, man, how do I be a better leader? And, you know, my first question I always ask them is how well do you lead yourself? Because that's where I really, really failed. We talk, you know, and several times you've mentioned a principle I talk about called the leadership fence. And a leadership fence was just kind of a concept I came up with after watching a lot of really good leaders and bad leaders, including myself in that category. You know, years later, I look back and the idea was this, that imagine a chain link fence

• 39:32Speaker 02

  and that fence represents where you are in your leadership journey. And on one side of the fence are all those you lead and on the other side are those you report to, your superiors. Everybody has a natural tendency to kind of fall on one side of the fence or the other, depending on how they grew up or how they came into the organization. For me, obviously, when you started out as an E1, I connected a lot more with the guys on the side of the fence that I was leading. As a matter of fact, the teams back then typically wanted to switch coasts with guys. If you're an enlist guy, they want to send you out to the opposite coast. And that didn't happen for me.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  And I tell you what, I look back on that now and I think that was a mistake. You know, I created a lot of my own problems and the SEAL teams were right in their thinking on how to do that because now the hardest leadership often is peer leadership, you know, to break through those bonds of, hey, you and I were both friends, but now I'm in charge of you. So how do we navigate that waters? And if you're close with those people, it makes it a lot more difficult. You know, you have to be the one that really has to break those bonds and sometimes, you know, it can damage friendships if you're not careful with that. And I think I was more focused on retaining that. So that was on one side of the fence. The other side of the fence, a lot of times you see individuals that come into an organization later at a higher leadership position.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  So they get brought in as an officer, they get brought in as a leader to a company and they're more focused on that leadership position that they don't take the time to get to know the people they're leading. So they're too far away from the fence. It's a chain link fence so that you can talk through it, so that you can communicate through it. And the best leaders have the ability to be right up against that fence. So whether they're on either side, they're able to turn around and gain guidance from the individuals, whether it's their leadership and communicate it through to those they lead, or whether they're on the side of communicating and interacting with those they lead and communicating through and getting guidance from who they follow.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Problems arise when you're too far away from the fence. You know, the leaders who are so far on the other side of the fence that all they're thinking about is how do I make the next rank? You know, we know who they are. I mean, we've seen those guys who literally, you know, you think, man, you would like kill your mother to make the next rank, to be this or be that. And then we also know those guys who, you know, they have no aspirations to try and get better on the other side of the fence. I mean, you know, we joke about the career E5s, you know, they're perfectly content. You know, the magic position in the SEAL teams where, you know, you're at that level where you're high enough above to not do the grunt work, but you don't really have tremendous responsibilities. I was way too far away. That was the bottom line.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  And this is where I was tremendously failing and not setting the example. I wasn't communicating with, with the leadership. They were trying to provide me guidance and basically saying, hey dude, you're screwing things up. And even, even Pete Carey himself was trying to convey to me in his very abrasive way, hey dude, you know, this is not the way you do things. But I was blinded both by having excelled at this point in my career, really rocketing up, and thinking, oh, I know these things, you know, I'm the man. So humility is such a critical component of leadership to take that step back.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  And if anybody's giving you advice, always take a second to think through it and, and, you know, evaluate, hey, even if maybe you don't think it applies, there's probably pieces of it that do. That's the reality.

• 43:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was with someone's giving me critique points, you know, and of course, and it's every single, I say every single person on earth doesn't like receiving critique. Like, and I always joke about the fact that even when someone asks for criticism, when they get it, they still get mad. Even when I say, hey Jay, would you, you know, take, read this thing that I just wrote and tell me what you think of it? And then you read it and you say, you know, I thought it was a little, you could do this a little bit better. I'm gonna be mad. Right? Everyone gets mad. And so that's, so what I do is the same thing. I take a step back. When somebody gives me a critique point, even though I'm completely offended and I don't agree with them and I think I'm right because I'm an egotistical maniac, I put all that aside and I say, wait a second, there's a reason that they're telling me this. There's gotta be some truth to it.

• 44:01Jocko Willink?

  I liked, I'm, one of my favorite things about this book is the fact that it, it reveals the, the, the difficulties that we have in the SEAL teams, which are the same difficulties that I see all the time. So people think, oh, when you're in the SEAL teams, everyone's just perfect. And you know, this, this Pete Carey would be the perfect mentor and he'd just be able to come along and, and then you'd be the perfect recipient, the perfect mentee, ready to learn. And everything is just perfect. And it, and it's actually completely untrue. And what you have in the SEAL teams, actually in the, in the, like in the civilian sector and companies and organizations, they have these personality, you know, different personalities in the SEAL teams. And so you think, oh, in the SEAL teams, you don't have

• 44:46Jocko Willink?

  that. No, you actually have it worse because you've got these guys that have, that have really built, their ego's been built up and we all think we're great. We all think we're a tactical genius. We all think we don't have anything to learn. And so, so we have a lot of issues around this exact kind of thing. And it does completely derail, not just leaders, but it derails platoons. And I, I mean, we would disband platoons. And when we would disband a platoon, that means the platoon is no longer going to exist. We'd have a platoon coming through training, the platoon would get disbanded. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens. Yeah. And when it happens, it, it has, it has zero to do with the E4s, E5s, and usually

• 45:27Jocko Willink?

  the E6s. And it has a hundred percent to do with the senior E6s, the chiefs, and the officers inside that platoon that just are disasters. And it does happen. And I think the fact that you, the, the fact that you talk through some of these issues are, I mean, that's what, that's what's very revealing about the SEAL teams in this book is like, hey, we got, you know, we got the same issues that they have in other, or any other team, any other organization. And that, that, you know, that thing that you talk about, this, this fence, you know, that's, to me, that's the dichotomy of leadership, right? That's like, you can go too far in one direction or the other. And if you go too far in one direction or the other, you're gonna, you're gonna fall apart. Yep. So, check.

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  All right. Now you're on deployment in Afghanistan and I always, I always mention this. I haven't mentioned it yet, but I'll mention it right now because I'm only reading small portions of this book and there's so much more great detail in the book and you'll have a better understanding of these lessons when you, when you read the whole thing. So if it seems a little bit, you know, if it seems it's jumping around a little bit, it's just because I'm only reading chunks of it because I'm not going to read the whole damn book, you can read it yourself. All right. So now, speaking of jumping around, you're in Afghanistan. You had a mission go down where it sounded like you guys got some bad intel and it caused a little bit of a problem.

• 46:54Jocko Willink?

  You hit the target pretty hard and you guys got put on an operational pause, meaning hey, you guys aren't going to do anything.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  And, and that's a great story and how that unfolds is great and people should read so they can learn lessons from that. But then I'm going to go skip a lesson here. You are in the chow hall and you're sitting with some of your boys. And I'm specifically using that term because at this point you definitely were boys with the boys. And I'm going to the book. I'd been searching for a way to prove myself ever since I'd come aboard. Now the opportunity to do so had just fallen in my lap. I had to take it. In time, I learned there is nothing more dangerous on the battlefield than an immature and arrogant officer who feels he needs to prove himself. It can lead men to their death. And what you're looking at is you happen to be sitting in the chow hall with the commanding

• 47:47Jocko Willink?

  general. And these guys kind of, your, your boys kind of egg you on to go talk to them about, hey, why are we, why are we standing down? And you're an ensign at this point?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Jesus. Okay. So here we go. I walked over and stood beside the general's table. Excuse me, general. Ensign Redmond, Naval Special Warfare. Do you have a couple of minutes? His aides glowered up at me. Stamped on their faces is who the hell are you? Look, that made me momentarily waver. The general invited me to sit down. His aides looked frosted and grew more so after I began to talk. Sorry, I just wanted to talk to you about this operational pause we still seem to be in. I began, the general's face registering nothing but interest. I continued, I know there was a miscommunication with our first mission, but we know the enemy's out there and we'd really like to take the opportunity to go after them. The general heard me out, then replied diplomatically, well, Ensign,

• 48:44Jocko Willink?

  I've got to look at all the strategic factors here. We must always weigh the strategic impact with the impact on the civilian populace, and there are implications to going out and operating at night. I understand that, sir. Right now, we're at a crazy time in the war and we have to balance what we're doing. Well, General, I said, I can hardly read that with a straight face. Well, General, I said, we really feel like we can contribute in a positive way by going after the men who pose a clear and present threat to coalition forces. General was noncommittal, but remained polite. I don't think his aides took their eyes off me through the entire conversation. I could feel them boring holes through me. I thanked them for their time, got up and headed back to my table. The other two operators were gone. Why hadn't they stuck around?

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Get some.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, beware of peer pressure and beware, you know, once again, it comes back to that, that lead yourself, you know, lead yourself, that founding principle because, you know, this was a dangerous thing and I did this several times during that deployment. You know, this, this misunderstanding or this idea that somehow there's this shortcut to being an effective leader, that there's this push button, easy button that beep, look at me, now I'm a great leader. And this really was this moment. I mean, people understand, this was an interesting time. So this was, um, this was July of 2005.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  So, um, June 28th, 2005, Operation Red Wings had just happened and that was our troop. So we had lost, um, you know, we had lost five of our guys, including our troop commander. Uh, we had lost my Eric Christensen. We had lost my good friend in the OIC of that platoon, Mike McGreevy. I originally was in Echo Platoon. Um, we had trained alongside those guys, so.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  We were all grieving and we all wanted revenge. We all wanted to go after the enemy. So the very first mission we did was the mission you talked about that got us in a little bit of trouble. So now, take the dynamics of everybody grieving because of the loss of our teammates and then doing our first mission and being put in hack because of really some outstanding issues that you can read about in the book. We had actually done everything right, but it kind of got placed back on us. So I just, you know, it's these moments that as a young leader, whether you're in a business, whether you're in the military, law enforcement, whatever you do, that you see this shortcut.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  "Oh, look what I can do." And it got fueled when, you know, my teammates and I sat there and started talking and, you know, teammates were the biggest, you know, shit talkers on the planet. And they definitely were egging me on and I ate it up, hook, line and sinker. And I was like, "You are absolutely right. Here is a great opportunity for me to, you know, shed some, you know, amazing wisdom and insight to this general where he now is going to be like, "Oh, young Ensign, you're so right. We should absolutely allow you guys to go out and conduct all these operations because I'm, you know, I'm not smart enough to allow this to happen." And I mean, the arrogance that I had and really sad that I didn't think through,

• 52:15Speaker 02

  you know, "What are the implications of this, you know, for you to go do that?" I mean, it was just a stupid decision. And I realized it. As soon as those guys were gone, like, all of a sudden, I'm like, huh.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  "What did you just do, moron?" And as I walked back from the chow hall to our, you know, our camp, I was like, "This isn't gonna go well."

• 52:43Jocko Willink?

  You went and told your boss that you did it, right?

• 52:44Speaker 02

  I did. I went straight back to my CO and I said, "Hey, I want to let you know what just happened." I said, "I thought it was a good idea."

• 52:54Speaker 02

  And I don't think it was. And, you know, it was funny. He kind of looked at me and he said, "Why, why, why did you think that was a good idea?" And uh, and I said, well, I was, you know, I was doing it for the boys. It was about the boys and you know, so it really wasn't. And at the end of the day, it was about me. And that's where, you know, really understanding that, you know, in leadership, you are the last point in the equation. And don't get me wrong, you know, there's an overlap of everything that happens that we do. So oftentimes you're focused on the mission, you're focused on the men, and of course, by doing that well, there is a positive impact for you and there's

• 53:36Speaker 02

  nothing wrong with that. But that thought process, it should be, um, it should be by sequence, if you will, not because you're focused on it.

• 53:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And you're right. The byproduct of focusing on your people and focusing on your mission, the byproduct of that is you'll be successful. And the contrary, the contrarian situation is literally if you focus on yourself instead of your people and your mission, you will fail. You will, you, and you know what? Fail is a strong word because there's people, and you and I know them, who have focused on themselves and they, they, they, they can win this battle and they can win this tactical battle, they can win this tactical battle, and they can get to a certain point, but eventually it will come back on them. And you won't be as truly successful as if you would, as you would have been had you focused on the men, the mission, and not focused on yourself.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  I, I call those people leadership wrecking balls. They're good, they're good at what they do. Um, you know, in some ways Pete Carey is one of those people. He was very good at what he did and he got things done. Uh, but he had a tendency to leave and a lot of organizations have these individuals. And they keep them around because they do get things done, but they leave a path of destruction behind them. And over time, people don't want to work with them. And you know, that's why I call them the leadership wrecking ball. So, you know, I tell people, you need to evaluate yourself. Are you one of those people? Do you turn around, you know, forward, you look at the successes you have, but you turn around and look and there's a path of destruction on the way there.

• 55:08Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about it. Alright, so you guys eventually do get back in the game. You, the pause, operational pause gets lifted, and you guys are operating again, and here you are out on an operation. You're in an overwatch position on a hilltop. Going back to the book, between bursts of gunfire, I heard him report, "Troops in contact, troops in contact. We're facing at least twenty enemy fighters." A wash of static followed. Then I heard Joker add, "One of our Afghan soldiers is wounded. We need reinforcements." "Jay, here's your chance. Your teammates are in trouble." I looked down into the valley a thousand feet below. The slope was steep, perhaps sixty degrees in places. Getting down there would be a serious climb.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  Once at the bottom, we'd have to maneuver to the sound of the guns through broken terrain and vegetation. That would complicate approaching our guys without getting shot by accident. I called to Fred and asked if the western overwatch team was still in place. Gunfire erupted over the radio as he keyed his mic and answered, "I think so." "Okay, good. That gave us eyes above and control of the high ground over there." "This is the moment, Jay. Go prove yourself." As we dropped off the lip, Senior Chief Kerry called to me over the radio and wanted to know what I was doing. "We're going down," I told him. He went ballistic. "Absolutely not. We need to link back up. Fall back."

• 56:37Jocko Willink?

  The boys needed help and we were closest. If it had been anybody else, I might have thought twice about his call, but my own personal quest to prove myself, coupled with my intense hatred for him, clouded my judgment. I ignored him, and we pressed on. As we dropped further into the valley, we lost all communication with the headquarters team. I began to realize what a hairy situation I had just placed the two of us in. We had given up the high ground to move down a thousand feet of vertical terrain to try and link up with an element under fire with an enemy force almost one kilometer away. I pushed this thought to the back of my mind. "The boys need help. Focus on that." But where was the fight? The sounds of battle echoed all across the valley,

• 57:22Jocko Willink?

  making it difficult to calculate distance and direction. A broken transmission filled my earpiece. I couldn't tell what it was, but I recognized JD's voice. I tried to establish contact. A moment later, through washes of static, JD's voice came back. "Where the hell are you?" JD demanded. I told him, "We were at the T-intersection on the valley floor." "Get your ass out of the valley now," he said with so much anger, I could almost feel a blast of fire shoot out of the earpiece. I was about to explain my intent when he added, "Those guys are in a major fight and we can't call in close air support because we don't know where you are."

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  That shook me. There were aircraft overhead waiting to join the battle with rockets and bombs, yet they could not make their runs because of my decision to go into the valley. I should have thought about our air assets, but I was too blinded by my own ambition. With my combat inexperience on full display, it started to dawn on me at last. Had I made a mistake? What if somebody got hit during the delay I'd caused? I keyed my radio and reported that we would be pulling out of the valley and climbing up the north face of the T-intersection to link up with our element there. Once we were consolidated on the north ridge and our security was set for what would surely be a long night ahead, JD came, looking for me. As he approached, I could see he was livid.

• 58:45Jocko Willink?

  "What the hell were you doing?" Indignantly, I told him I was trying to go to the aid of my brothers. He looked at me like I just spit on his wife. "That was a stupid thing you did, Red. You could have gotten people killed." His words made me even more righteously indignant. I fired back at him. "The boys were in trouble and I went to their aid. I did what needed to be done in the moment." JD refused to accept that. I tossed out a similar situation that occurred in Afghanistan a few years before, as if establishing precedence would help my case. JD knew of the mission too, and he cut me off with, "Not the same at all, Red. They didn't have air support available." "I didn't know I..." "No, he did," I shouted back. "You delayed it with what you did," JD

• 59:30Jocko Willink?

  roared. At last, when it was clear to JD that his words were not sinking in, he ended the argument. Currently, he said, "We'll deal this after when we get back to Kandahar." He turned and stalked off. I watched him leave and struggled with my own thoughts. Had I really made that big of a mistake? No, no way. I went to help. When is that ever wrong?

• 59:58Speaker 02

  Bro. That's rough.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  You know, a lot of people read that section who don't have a tactical background and they don't fully understand. They're like, "Oh, man, no, you did the heroic thing. You know, you went down into the battle. You know, you tried to take the fight to the enemy." But, you know, I try to explain to them, you know, "You don't have a tactical understanding." You know, "There are so many things that were done wrong there."

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  That it literally, and this story would be so different if something had actually happened. And the potential for something to have gone wrong is through the roof. I mean, you've been in Afghanistan. I mean, you know the fighting positions. And basically, I took myself off a very advantageous high ground position that we owned down into the valley, a thousand feet below. I mean, there could have been hundreds of fighting positions and caves above me that any one single fighter could have just decimated us. And, you know, it would have been one thing if I got myself killed, but I pulled a young team guy, machine gunner, down with me. So I placed this guy's life in jeopardy. And, you know, I, the funny thing is, you know, I tried to paint it in that moment, arguing with JD that I was doing

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  the right thing. I'm taking the fight to the enemy. I'm, you know, supporting my brothers and all this BS. You know, the reality was, I wanted to get in the fight. At that point, I had been on the edge of a lot of firefights and, and you know, and even in fighting, I mean, until you get in there, you haven't proved yourself. And I wanted to prove myself. I wanted to prove myself both as a SEAL, as a fighter, and as a leader. And this was another moment, just like the general, where I thought, "Here's my opportunity." And, um, and I was so unwilling to listen, um, you know, that I had made a mistake. And

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  the reality is, if I had owned it in that moment, it probably would not have been as bad as it was. But the mere fact that I just planted my flag on that spot and was like, "Screw you, you're wrong, I'm right, and I did the right thing," I think just turned what was a fire into a raging inferno.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's definitely rough. And I think also

• 1:02:22Jocko Willink?

  from a, from a tactical perspective, people make mistakes like this, like it can happen and it can happen. And, and you know, I talk about being able to detach and that's something that I definitely learned in the SEAL Teams. And it was, I think, one of the most advantageous skills for a leader, especially a combat leader to have is to be able to, to step back from the situation as it's unfolding. Because if you fully knew, hey, we've got air overhead and they're in a firefight. And if I go down there, we won't be able to use air support. You wouldn't have done this, even, even a 60 gunner, you know, even a pig gunner would say, oh, okay. No, I need to, I need to let that, that unfold.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  But you know, your excitement to get down there and, and get in the fight is definitely, you know, that's something that, that can grab a hold of, of anyone. If they're not careful. And, and again, it's what we just talked about with you at that moment, put yourself ahead of the mission, ahead of the team. And, and then, yeah, I mean, this idea of ownership and, and you know, when I, when I kick off, uh, the book that I wrote with Leif, Extreme Ownership, you know, kicks off with a blue on blue. And you know, it was, it was a lot of bad things happening. There was a lot of moving parts going on. It was a horrible situation. An Iraqi soldier got killed, several more got wounded. One of my guys got wounded. And I can tell you right now,

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  like, I think if I would have said, hey, this wasn't my fault, blame it on someone else, I, I, I think I would have gotten fired about, in about three seconds.

• 1:04:01Jocko Willink?

  Because it's just, it's a bad situation to unfold. And yeah, you planting the flag on that is, is rough. And, and I, I, I mean, your humility and putting this out there is awesome. And people can learn so much from that because if you recognize how easily you, and you know, okay, let's, let's, let's, let's paint you in a bad light that you were young and you were, but let's paint you in a good light. Even with you had those qualities of being hyper aggressive and you wanted to get in the fight and, and you're, you were a little bit arrogant. You're still a, a team guy that's trying to do a good job. It wasn't like you were trying to do a bad job. So to recognize like, hey, even if you're well intentioned, if you don't pay attention to these things. They can grab hold of you and they can pull you in the wrong direction and you look up

• 1:04:45Jocko Willink?

  and you're planting your flag and putting up your defenses around an indefensible position, which is where you ended up here.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  And you nailed it with the idea, you know, it's something I know you talk to people about in business, I talk about, I think it's no different probably in fighting. You know, you've got to let the battlefield develop. Sometimes we have this natural instinct that when something bad happens, when a crisis happens, we feel this, you know, oh my God, I gotta react immediately before we actually take the time. And even in a gunfight, you typically have a few seconds and it's amazing how much information we can process in a few seconds before we react and move. And so that was one problem. And the other problem, and you know, was I was driven by this relationship issue.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  And it's funny, you know, the individual, the retired mass chief that you were with on, you know, Thursday, who was, I served under him twice. Later, we had talked about that exact situation and he had given me advice later and he said, never let your personal feelings get in the way of your professional relationships. And I had, I'd absolutely let my personal feelings drive that. And that was probably the biggest F you moment, you know, like I said, if it'd been anybody else, but my hatred for him had grown to the point that I was just like, yeah, let me show you, buddy. You know, and so all these things, you know, dangerous, you know, that not only did, you know, all these things you have to be careful of. I mean, this is what falls under, you know, a lot of people call these different things.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  In my Pentagon of Peak Performance, I call it emotional leadership. So your ability to detach yourself for a second and say, okay, I'm not going to let my own personal feelings drive this because what's going on around me, my ability to lead and make the right decisions is more critical than what I feel. And Obviously, you know, I had not learned those lessons yet. I was on that, uh, on that glide path. And at this point, I was on the glide path down. I was crashing and burning.

• 1:06:50Jocko Willink?

  Rough, rough. Uh, going back to the book, back at Kandahar, I heard the first whispers about me floating around the team. The men had nicknamed me Rambo Red. Though some may think being compared to Stallone's lone wolf silver screen icon was a compliment, within our community, it was a supreme insult. In the SEAL teams, there's no room for individualism. The foundations of our success rest on mutual cooperation and communication. A lone wolf like Rambo could destroy a team with catastrophic effects on the battlefield.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  After we debriefed the mission, J.D. Richardson took me into his makeshift office and said, "Red, your operational abilities have been called into question. We're sending you back to Bogrom to meet with the CO and we'll discuss this further when the rest of the team gets back." I was stunned. At worst, I was starting to expect something more than a wrist slap, but nothing like that. I was being sent back to the rear, out of combat. Nothing can ever be more humiliating for a warrior. I trained my entire adult life for this, and now I had been told I didn't measure up. I felt like a mule kick to the gut.

• 1:08:04Jocko Willink?

  I heard rumblings that Senior Chief Carey wanted to see my trident taken away. Behind the scenes, he was pushing for a trident review board to determine my fate. The months of infighting between us had been bad enough. Now he was trying to destroy my career.

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  I was sick at the thought of losing my trident over a single bad moment in a valley whose name nobody back home would ever know and whose location would not matter to anyone but a handful of men who had fought in it.

• 1:08:38Jocko Willink?

  Ensign Redmond had demonstrated a consistent pattern of bad decision-making. I thought again about my screaming match with Senior Chief Carey during the NATO exercise. When it ended, what did I see in the eyes of my teammates? Embarrassment. This wasn't really about one moment in the valley, was it, Jay? I had to face that fact. I rubbed my anking temples. I felt like my head was going to explode from the pressure building inside of it. My life was being destroyed and I had made myself vulnerable to these attacks with my own actions. If I was allowed to continue to operate, stories of this deployment would circulate through the teams.

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  If I go to my next platoon with my reputation in tatters, who would follow my lead? Sitting neatly on the wooden crossbar on the floor beside my bed, my holstered SIG Sour P226 sat well-oiled and cleaned. I leaned over and pulled it out. I knew a round was already in the chamber, but I drew back the slide and took a look to make sure. We called a suppressed check and it confirmed what I already knew: my gun was ready to go. As I held the pistol, I thought of the great Samurai warriors who, if disgraced, would commit ritual suicide.

• 1:10:02Jocko Willink?

  Part of me willed my hand to raise the SIG to press it firmly to my temple. My life is over. There's nothing left but an honorable exit. I glanced over at the desk and saw a picture of my beautiful wife, Erica. The image of her face riveted my attention. Her easygoing smile, her eyes alight and lively, always quick to laugh and offer love and compassion. What would this do to her? After all she'd sacrificed for me, would my death snuff out the life of her gorgeous eyes? With the bullet I put in my temple, I'd leave her the burden of my failed career and a ticket to a lifetime of grief.

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  The kids would live under that cloud as well.

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  You know, it's interesting, a lot of people who have not read my book, or maybe they have read it and they gloss over this, but they will wrongly assume that my injuries and that ambush and the aftermath of that ambush were the hardest thing I've ever been through. And I tell them, absolutely not. By far, that moment right there and that period of time in my life, about a, that was about a four-month period, maybe five months, that journey to the bottom. And I was almost at rock bottom at that point.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  And this is where the psychology of humans is an interesting thing because all of us have that little voice that lives inside of us. I call mine my demon. And my demon has been my greatest pusher because he tells me what I can't do and he also, at times, can be the most dangerous thing out there. Because they will push you to do things that are wrong. They will push you to do things and tell you you can't do things. And it was in that moment that I literally was listening to that, that, you know, you will never recover. You know, your career is over. There's no way you're going to come back from this.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  The guys are never going to follow you again. All these lies. These are lies that we tell ourselves. And I think it's really important, you know, if there's anything about me, I tell people that I am an expert on overcoming adversity, failure, and crisis. And it doesn't matter how bad things have been, you always can recover. It goes back to those three rules of leadership. You just, once again, go back to leading yourself. And in that moment, though, I was so...

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  Crushed, so crushed because I had convinced myself that I had done the right thing. And unfortunately, I still believe that and I just saw myself as a victim, a victim who had no way that I could recover. And you know, it's sad and, and you know, you know, that God moment that I glanced over because I don't think if, if I had made the mistake or wherever I was, not having pictures of my wife and kids right there, I probably would have done it. Uh, cause I just felt so hopeless. And then I was ashamed, um, honestly for thinking that and thinking about the impact I would leave on them. So I'd love to say that was the catalyst of starting to climb out of that hole, but I actually continued to spiral

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  down over the next couple of months, uh, until finally, you know, my, you know, that moment occurred right after, you know, my judgment had been set upon me, which really I was very fortunate because I should have been grateful because really what they could have done is said, you're out of here. You know, we're sending you out of the teams. You're going to go before a try to review board and they didn't, you know, the CEO believed in me. He said, you know, you've done a lot of great things. You've had some amazing moments. You've just, you, you've got some flaws. You've got some arrogant flaws and you definitely, we need to work on your decision-making, um, leadership abilities. So that's what they did.

• 1:14:27Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, you know, when I, when I was reading this part, it's, it's gonna be, it's, it's, I don't, I don't think you could have, I don't think a human being, I don't think you could explain, I don't think Will Shakespeare could explain to someone that's not in the teams, what it feels like to be in the teams and to feel like maybe that's not going to be your life anymore. That's rough, man. And I don't think, I mean, you did your best and like I said, I don't think it's just to, to explain. And I mean, I guess you do it because you explain, listen, you were at a point where if you couldn't be in the teams, you didn't want to be alive. That's where you were at right

• 1:15:12Jocko Willink?

  there. And I guess that does explain it. Uh, I think it might be hard for people to relate to, but like for people like you and me that grew up literally whole adult life in the SEAL teams, I can't even imagine if at the, in the, in the.

• 1:15:29Jocko Willink?

  In the highlight of that moment of being deployed in combat, you just lost your comrades in arms from your task unit and to be told, okay, you can't do this job anymore. I mean, like you said, and again, I think it's going to be hard for people to understand that it seems like you would never want to, you wouldn't want to live at all. And then just to add this on to what you're saying, and I say this every time that I talk about these kind of personal storms that people get into. And I've just got to say this in case someone hasn't heard me say it before. When you're in that storm, it seems like it goes forever in every direction.

• 1:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Anyone on the outside would, anyone 10 feet away from you would look at you and say, oh yeah, you made some mistakes, you need to, you need to get back on the horse, you need to get back out there, here's what's going to help you get fixed, here's what'll get you back. But when we're, every direction you look is black and you think you're not getting out. And team guys don't play around either at all, going back to the book. So you decide, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to stick it out. You're on your way back, I made my way back to my hooch. When I entered our living quarters, I walked by our message board and saw a note scrawled next to my name. Why don't you go ahead and kill yourself? I stared at the words for I don't know how long.

• 1:16:52Jocko Willink?

  The hallway was empty, nobody had been standing around waiting to see my reaction. That's, team guys, there's no mercy in a SEAL platoon.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  There's not, you know, I've often thought about that and, and you know the deal, we have incredibly dark humor. So I often wonder, was somebody just trying to lighten the mood and kind of shock me into, hey dude, come out of it, you know, go fix yourself. Uh, I've always, I've often wondered that. Or were they serious and just like, dude, you're a disgrace. You know, we don't, and, and I know for a fact, I mean, there was a point, uh, right before we left on that deployment, um, a couple of weeks later where, you know, guys were being divvied up into where they were going next. So next platoons, next leadership. And they were asked, you know, who, who do you want to work with, you know, who do you want to work under?

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  And, and, uh, they unequivocally wrote, we don't want to work with Brett. Uh, so this was an additional blow that really kind of reinforced, hey man, you, you, you got some, uh, You got some work to do, except I'll be honest, I wasn't at that point yet.

• 1:18:00Jocko Willink?

  You weren't there yet.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  I was still at rock bottom. You know, you talk about the storms. I talk about life ambushes and this was a major life ambush. One of the first major life ambushes I'd ever encountered. And I literally was on the X taking withering fire. And I couldn't figure out how to get out of it.

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  And you were doing your best to return fire with your pistol.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Yes, in this case, I was gonna return one round thinking that was gonna fix things.

• 1:18:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm right.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna maintain this position right here and I'm gonna win. No, actually you're not. You need to, you need to look around, you need to maneuver. Uh, so you do end up keeping your trident. Because obviously there were some guys that, that believed, like you said, believed in you and saw that you had the potential. And actually, sometimes people ask me, what, what makes a guy get fired or not get fired? And for me, it's like, almost a hundred percent. If the guy lacks humility, they're gonna get fired. Or if they, if they, if no one, if I would see a guy that had no humility whatsoever, and I didn't see a crack, it'd be like, okay, this guy's a lost cause because he's never gonna listen to anyone. You can't coach someone that lacks humility completely. So, or you can't help them.

• 1:19:16Jocko Willink?

  They, they, they're gonna sit in, on the X and just get shot up. That's the way it's gonna be. Uh, so somebody saw that, hey, we can get through to this guy, you know, he's a good team guy.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  And, and more importantly to that point, and this is a great leadership point and organizational point. Not only are they gonna sit there and take those hits because they're too arrogant to be willing to move. They're gonna pull everybody else down with them. And that's where it gets really dangerous. I mean, especially in our community where lives are on the line. I mean, if they're unwilling to learn or humble themselves enough, they're gonna get somebody else killed. And that was the big concern at that point. And man, I've gotta give kudos to my commanding officer who is a friend to this day. He saved my career because I wasn't exhibiting humility.

• 1:19:58Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  I was fighting back. I was, I did the right thing. I'm the victim here. You know, I'm just being thrown under the bus. And thankfully, he had enough faith in me. I guess he had seen enough good that he said, I think we can fix him.

• 1:20:12Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Good man. Uh, and one of the things that they do to fix you in the SEAL teams is send you to Ranger School. A wonderful vacation in Port Benidorm. And I would say there's a small, there's some people that go to Ranger School because they want to go to Ranger School right on. But oftentimes in the SEAL teams, Ranger School, and I wouldn't even call it punishment, but it's, it's like a re-education. And that's definitely something that has always been, and that's what they do with you. Okay, they're gonna, they're gonna send you to a really tough training school where it's not just a tough training school where you get weeded out. You learn some tactics, you learn to, you learn leadership. And I did not go to Ranger School, but uh, you know, it's a great school.

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  Everyone I know that the Rangers that I know are awesome guys, so great school. But oftentimes we use it in the SEAL teams, maybe punishment is the wrong word. In some cases, I know it's been punishment. Occasionally a guy will want to go there, but generally guys, I mean, generally guys are working, so they're not going to go to Ranger School. You end up getting the Ranger School and here we go, sick, hungry, burning with resentment. Cause as you said, you're not, at this point, you're still like, oh, this is, this is, this is crap. I don't deserve this. Yeah, I was, to say I was bitter is an understatement. Check. Burning with resentment. I went into the first few days with, without my heart or mind engaged. The first week of Ranger School is nothing but a gut check.

• 1:21:42Jocko Willink?

  Long days with minimal sleep, exposure to the elements and constant physical and mental evolutions to get those who don't want to be there to quit. Teamwork, leadership within a circle of peers and decision-making under stressful conditions were the objective of this first phase. As a SEAL, I should have represented my community in the best possible manner while, by displaying leadership, a commitment to teamwork and a willingness to overcome obstacles. Instead, my actions showed me to be arrogant, ill-tempered and unwilling to work with others. Many soldiers falsely believe that SEALs are like that and my actions re, simply reinforced it. I failed to represent my community as anything but that stereotype.

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  So you have this bad attitude, you go out on a compass course, you're pretty good at land nav, you think you're gonna kick ass, you don't kick ass, you do a bad job, the black hats, who are the ranger instructors, here we go, the black hats chuckled with laughter, damn squid got lost, we should have given you a boat, swabby, another growled, not surprising seals don't know how to navigate anyways. I failed at something I once took great pride in, not so good without your Gucci gear, are you? Another sneered. I lost it, all my pent up fury frothed out of me, screw this course and screw you, kiss my ass, I walked up to my company instructor and told him, I'm out of here, I quit. Are you sure you want to do that? Without thinking, I said, yes.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  I was reading this book and I was like, damn. I was thinking, damn, I mean, holy shit.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, talk about a total breakdown of emotional leadership. I mean, that's the reality, I had, I had, and, and here's the problem with that. I had allowed this to happen by not managing myself. I had allowed this, I was like a, a pressure cooker waiting to pop off. And instead of managing it, recognizing it, come to grips with it, I, I didn't. And it, it just manifested itself in that moment where I, I failed the land nav course, uh, because of my own arrogance. And then, you know, I allowed those ranger instructors to get under my skin in that failure. Instead of immediately saying, well, hey, no big deal, I could have gone back and done it again,

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  like three days later, because there, I wasn't the only guy that failed, there were other guys that failed. But instead of that, I instantly just, it was one additional blow that I had sustained. And being at this tipping point, you know, I allowed them to get under my skin and snapped. And it is the only thing I have ever quit in my life, that I have verbally quit. I mean, for all intents and purposes, I rang the bell in that moment. And so angry and frustrated and listened to that demon that said, your career is over, you will never recover from this, you know, this is the final straw, you know, you had an opportunity and you missed it, man, so, you know, nobody's ever gonna follow you again.

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and everyone screwed you over and put you in this point.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  Absolutely, that's why, you know, victim, victim, victim mentality.

• 1:24:46Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is a miracle. This is a miracle.

• 1:24:50Speaker 02

  This is the biggest God moment that, you know, I, I, people don't understand this.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  This is a miracle. The Colonel in charge of Ranger School happens to be friends with, uh, Vince Peterson, who we talked about earlier, and that's not his real name, but he's a legendary SEAL officer and a prior Vietnam Marine Battle of Way City. By the way, just a, just an awesome guy. And for whatever reason, miracle, the Colonel that's in charge of Ranger School is friends with, uh, with Captain Peterson. And here we go, going back to the book, you're sitting there talking to the Colonel. Vince Peterson was the greatest natural leader I'd ever known.

• 1:25:37Jocko Willink?

  He had a knack of expressing where the team needed to go with just a few words. He'd plant seeds like his men, taking ownership of the plan, then watched as everything went forward. With the plans, when the plan succeeded, and it almost always did, he never took the credit, he gave it to everyone else. In retrospect, I'm not proud that all I could manage was the fable. And this goes back to something you talked about earlier in the book. But at this point, I was still unable to face the truth myself, let alone admit it to the leader I respected above all others. And so here you go, your conversation with Captain Vince Peterson. Red, do you really think Ranger School is punishment? It is, sir.

• 1:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Red, have you ever thought that maybe there is an opportunity here? Sir? You have a chance to learn something of value, if you're willing to take it. I didn't know what to say to that. I'd not been trying to learn anything since Afghanistan. I'd been trying to defend and justify. You're getting ready to throw your career away, Red. I'm not sure I have a career left, sir. Red, he said firmly, what are you gonna do if you get out? If you come back, you'll be out of the Navy in a month. How are you going to support your family? He let that sink in. I had no answer and stayed silent. Besides, do you really want to go through your life, having ended your career this way? You can recover.

• 1:27:05Jocko Willink?

  You control your destiny and your future. You can earn back the respect of the guys if you give them something to respect, if your actions demand respect.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  I hadn't looked at it, my situation from that angle. Red, get back in that course, finish it, then come back with your head held high and show that you have the ability to lead.

• 1:27:33Jocko Willink?

  That'll leave a mark.

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and you know, for people to understand, I, I didn't sleep a wink that night after I, after I quit. And I was so ashamed of what I had done. And I was so convinced that there was no way I could undo it, that uh, I literally was just resigned to the fact that my career was over.

• 1:27:57Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  And uh, when I went into that office, um, I first spoke to the sergeant major and the sergeant major asked if I wanted to speak to anybody in the SEAL teams. Hell no, man. I don't want to talk to anybody, you know, I am a failure. I am, you know, broken. And uh, and then it was the colonel who asked me and I said the same thing. So the mere fact, and this is, he didn't even offer. He just started dialing. So the, and the mere fact, you talk about this fate moment that uh, that Vince Peterson happened to be at his phone and answer right then. And, and be on the phone and him to hand it to me. And there was no way in hell. I mean, I had such respect for this, this man. There was no way I could say no.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  And you know, that conversation, you know, this is, this is the highest levels of leadership to be able to quickly analyze a situation, especially when you're working with people to understand, you know, okay, this is where we're at. This is the battlefield I'm looking at. This is what I have to work with. And this is what I need to do to move this person to where we're going to motivate and inspire them. And I mean, he did it flawlessly. He knew exactly what to tell me. He, he told me both the good and the bad. He gave me hope. And he told me what happens if you don't, which would be hopeless, you know, I will have you out of the military in less than a month. And then, you know, I tell people that is the most succinct and powerful leadership advice I've ever been given. You know, people will follow you if you give them a reason to, if you give them something to respect.

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  And that really is the foundation of, you know, the three rules of leadership I talk about. Lead yourself. That's 80% of it, you know, leading others comes naturally. And he was right because. I left that office and the funny thing about it though is I got off the phone and I asked the Colonel, I said, "Sir, would you put me back in class?" And he didn't even miss a beat. "No."

• 1:29:55Speaker 02

  He said, "Instead, you will go to the holding company and we will class you up with a new class a month later."

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Which is just what you needed. You get rolled back for 30 days, going back to the book. I bent down and picked up the cigarette butt lying in the grass at my feet. With a flick, the butt spun into the garbage bag I'd been dragging across post with me. So here you are, a combat SEAL officer, picking up cigarette butts.

• 1:30:22Speaker 02

  13 years in.

• 1:30:23Jocko Willink?

  13 years in. As I filled my bag with litter, the bitterness flared again. I've put 13 in, I've put in 13 and a half years. I was a member of one of the most elite special operations units in modern history. Millions of dollars were spent preparing me, training me, outfitting me to handle the toughest battlefield tasks our nation can face. And my own brothers have reduced me to this.

• 1:30:45Jocko Willink?

  I stopped and thought about that statement.

• 1:30:48Jocko Willink?

  Where was the personal responsibility in it? Vince Peterson's word came back to me. "You have an opportunity to learn here if you're willing to take it." I served with good men whom I respected. They turned their back on me. Or did they? What did all this say about me? A door suddenly opened in my mind. The place it led to was a dark room that I had never entered. Inside, I could see the truth about myself through the facade of lies I had built. I stood at its threshold, not really wanting to walk through.

• 1:31:29Jocko Willink?

  Sun Tzu once said, "If you know your enemies and you know yourself, you will never be defeated." I didn't know myself. I was running blindly through life refusing to even acknowledge my weaknesses. I have been an arrogant ass most of my career. Clearly, I needed to come down to earth. Maybe trash detail did serve a purpose after all. I guess I needed to mentally flatline before I could reconstruct myself for leadership. I found another cigarette button flicked into my bag. The bitterness over being forced into this sort of work evaporated.

• 1:32:11Jocko Willink?

  Far from a humiliating burden, it was giving me clarity I surely needed. For years, my attitude had hobbled relationships and endangered my career. I suddenly recalled a moment years before I'd worked my tail off for months on a special project. When I finished it, I knew I was going to receive a significant award for the effort. For whatever reason, it got downgraded to a lesser award. What did you do after you found out? I had thrown a temper tantrum. I went off on one of our admin guys who had congratulated me after I received it. Instead of being grateful receiving any sort of acknowledgement, I'd thrown the award at him. I might as well have thrown it in the face of Captain Peterson, who was my CO at the time. That incident stuck with my peers who witnessed it.

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  And for years after, when I ran into one of them, they'd remind me of it. Jason Redman, Navy Achievement Medal Thrower, Vanguard of Leadership. I can't say I looked forward to picking up trash the next morning, but I didn't start the day despising what would come next. I was ashamed that I had fought so highly of myself that I saw myself as above picking up trash. I realized that as a SEAL leader, it was my responsibility to accept the example with everything I undertook.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:33:35Speaker 02

  There you go. It was, uh, you know, so this is probably the point and, uh, I talked to a lot of people about this. Like I, I wish I could say that after I hung up the phone with Captain Peterson, uh, that I went back and was like, you know, yeah, let's go, let's do this, you know, let's crush this. And instead I still was kind of finishing, I was on that slope down to crash that plane and I finally crashed that plane and hit really the bottom of the barrel. Uh, and, and it was at that point that I really started to analyze myself. This is something I talked to a lot of people about. You know, you truly have to know yourself. You cannot, because

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  our weaknesses manifested themselves in the hardest times. Uh, they don't come out in the good times and the good times, there's no issues with it. And the only way you could manage that, uh, you know, is through mental leadership and emotional leadership at the highest level. Because in the hardest times, and usually those are the times you've got to be managing the most, is when it comes up. And it was by really starting to rip myself apart and look at, you know, all these things that I had done and understanding, oh yeah, when I get into these situations, I feel that, you know, that, that meltdown with the Ranger instructors, you know, I felt that coming on. I could have stopped it, but I didn't. I let it go, you know? They lit the

• 1:34:57Speaker 02

  fuse and instead of tamping it, you know, out, I let it burn and blow up. So it was, you know, really it was these moments. And this is probably the biggest thing that I can tell anybody out there. It is never too late. You can always come back. Um, so for, for months I had convinced myself that I was a victim. For months I had convinced myself there was no way to do this. And for the first time, when I finally looked at, you know, these are your weaknesses, but oh, by the way, man, you've got some amazing strengths. And, you know, you need to figure out how to amplify these strengths, minimize these weaknesses, and, and what an opportunity you have. You are a

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  SEAL that's in Ranger School that can crush this course, set the example and come back. Every day is another opportunity. You're gonna screw up again and that's okay. But, you know, so for the first time I saw hope, standing at the, at rock bottom and looking up through this tunnel.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  I saw a glimmer of light. Well, what's, what's, when, when you say that, what I think about is what people get themselves into. They box themselves into this scenario and it's exactly where you had boxed yourself into, which was, hey, look, this guy doesn't like me. This guy's blaming me for that. This, these people have a bad attitude and you're, and, and guess what? Other people you can't control. And so you end up in a hopeless situation because I can't change this guy's attitude. He's an asshole. He doesn't like me. He, whatever, we had a run in. This person, they don't trust me and I can't change that. And so when you're in a situation where you can't change the situation at all,

• 1:36:38Jocko Willink?

  because you don't have control over any of it, well then guess what? You're hopeless. But the minute you look at yourself and you say, wait a second, I actually control everything that's going on right now. Everything. People's perception of me is based on my behavior, not theirs. And that's what, that's what I liked, what, uh, what Peterson said. You, you control your destiny and your future. That's the, that to me, I highlighted that 98 times. You control your destiny and your future. And at this point in the book is where you saw, and it took you picking up cigarette butts. And it took you to that point where you say, wait a second.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  All these things that have happened to me, I can get control of them and I can turn them in a better direction. And yeah.

• 1:37:33Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. And the journey began. Yeah.

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  That you kind of expand a little bit more here. I could not, I could not change my decision, but I should. You're talking about, this is what you're talking about. You're reflecting now on what happened on your decision to go into the valley in Afghanistan. That whole scenario that you got in trouble for. Here's what you said about it. I could not change my decision, but I should have owned it in its aftermath. I should have listened to those with more experience, taken my lumps and moved forward. That is how leaders grow. I was so desperate to justify and defend my actions, I lost sight of what to do, of what I was there to do. I was there to lead when necessary and to follow when called upon, but above all else, to accomplish the mission as part of the team. Instead, in the aftermath, I made it all about me and the defense of my ego.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  Again, when you come into the office and you say, "This wasn't my fault. I was doing the right thing." Everyone that's looking at you is thinking he's, he doesn't even see what he did wrong. And that's where, you know, you talk about, in this book, you talk about the fact that one of the most, one of the most horrible things on the battlefield is an arrogant young person that thinks there's, that's not going to listen to anyone. And you, when you sit there and put up your defenses, you're showing everyone that. Back to the book. "Yes, Senior Chief Carey hated me. We loathed each other. But the truth, he was a damn good operator. In a firefight, I would have wanted him there as a tactical leader. In his own abrasive way, he'd attempted to mentor me. If I had put down my pride, I would have seen it, and I would have learned a lot from him. That never happened. I failed to manage our relationship, and it poisoned the entire platoon.

• 1:39:12Jocko Willink?

  It also hurt my reputation with my teammates. My self-deceit finally collapsed. Carey had not done this to me. I done this all to myself. I was being punished less for the decision I'd made, and more for the way I'd fiercely refused to take responsibility for it. The more I railed against those aligned against me, the more I deserved to be punished. I wasn't betrayed by my teammates. I betrayed them with my selfishness. It was time to grow up."

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was exciting because it suddenly, Ranger School suddenly became a new opportunity. And really, I set my sights on, you know, kind of interestingly enough, I think all of us are super goal-driven people. And for the first time, I saw an opportunity and, and set a goal, you know, which is what I think all of us do so well at, you know? We have a target to move to, and now I have a path to go after it. And that that path became, I want to graduate the honor man of this course. And set, set the, you know, woke up the next morning, firing up the guys around me. And hey, man, we're getting ready to start up again. It's going to be awesome. Let's go do this. So.

• 1:40:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Again, I'm harping on this a little bit, but just the fact that this book is so powerful because to, to, to walk through that transition. And I'll tell you, anybody that's read Extreme Ownership, or anyone that listens to this podcast is going to be especially, um, they're, they're going to be having even deeper understanding because they, they, I talk about this all the time and to see you go down that path, see where it leads and then be able to come back out, being able to come back out is awesome. But, but it's so powerful to actually hear from your perspective, from someone that was in that

• 1:41:16Jocko Willink?

  exact position and doing those things, to hear you saying it and be able to witness the turnaround. It's, uh, it's powerful, powerful stuff. Next morning I hit the ground running and never looked back. The company I joined was full of strangers. No matter, I did everything full bore, made sure I helped, but made sure I helped everyone in my squad whenever I could. I was going to be the dis, I was not going to be the disconnected selfish jerk I had been this go around. My heart was fully invested.

• 1:41:46Jocko Willink?

  And you kick ass in Ranger School. You're not honor man because you find out that.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. I only find out at the very end that if you're rolled back, you're not eligible.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  But I did really well. I was ranked at the top of my P R E vows. I mean, all the instructors gave me a lot of, hey, man, you're, you're just crushing it. And, uh, so no matter, it was a goal, you know, another great guy earned it and well deserved.

• 1:42:12Jocko Willink?

  You end up back at the back of the teams, you go back into a task unit and you're an assistant platoon commander now?

• 1:42:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:42:19Jocko Willink?

  Again, is this a reroll as a, is it a re uh reef reload as an assistant platoon commander? Or are you still just super junior because you were a semen admiral guy?

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  No, uh, I had just made JG at this point. So back then we still, you know, now they're kind of doing it differently. A lot of us semen admiral guys did have the ability to do two pumps.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  They made me do two pumps.

• 1:42:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  They wanted me to do two pumps. And this is, I mean, for those who are not aware, there was a little bit of uh

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  impetus on me because they basically, so as officers, if you ever get a letter reprimanding your record, it effectively ends your career. I mean, if it, that official letter goes into your record, you're done. You'll never, you won't make the next rank. You're going to be out. And they basically wrote this letter, uh, my outgoing CO who was in Afghanistan to my incoming CO who was taking over the team. And they basically said, you made some mistakes and we question your tactical decision-making and leadership abilities, but we're going to give you a second chance. So this letter and I was, you know, I was in the office with the CO and he put it into uh his safe.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  And basically said, this will be burned or shredded at the end of the deployment. If you show us you have the ability. And if you don't, it will go into your, and they had my officer record right there and they were like, it will go right here into your record. So, and I think they knew the power of that also, and it gave me additional momentum. And I think this is important in leadership, you know, I mean, same way we raise our kids, there's got to be accountability. You can't just tell somebody, hey, this is what I want you to go out and do. We have to let, lay out the right and left limits and tell them this is where you're going to go. And you have to have those things that hold you accountable. So I don't know if I necessarily needed that. I was pretty fired up on, on wanting to get back and set the example and redeem myself.

• 1:44:13Speaker 02

  But I will say on the back of my mind, I knew, hey, man, you, you gotta, you gotta crush it.

• 1:44:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a, that's a, I don't know if that's um, happens in all the military, but in the SEAL teams, there's, there's a lot of letters that get shredded. And part of it is like a cover your ass. Like when I was a commander. Part of it's cover your ass because hey, look, you screwed up. And if you screw up again and everyone knows that this has happened multiple times and you haven't been counseled about it. I look like an idiot. And not only do I look like an idiot, I am an idiot if I'm not documenting that you screwed something up. So I'm going to document this and make sure that you know I've got it documented. But by the way, I'm not trying to kill your career. If you can turn it around and you can get back on the path, cool, this thing's going in the shredder. But here it is. Got some ways to go before this thing goes in that shredder.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:45:04Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's a pretty common thing in the SEAL teams, not too common, but um, so you're in a task unit. You're assistant platoon commander and things are going good and you, you were a lot more self-aware. And again, you have to read the whole book to get all these details about that transition. You were a lot more self-aware.

• 1:45:24Jocko Willink?

  And you started off as mobility commander and then eventually you start working with the assault team. And here we go back to the book after that first successful mission. Now, on the assault team, I had earned a spot in the mix and harmonized with the task unit's battle rhythm. Our platoons rotated back and forth between running mobility or running the assault force. The pace was intense and the mission started to blend together in a Groundhog Day sort of way. I may have lost my way years ago, but through God and a willingness to work hard and learn my strengths and weaknesses. I had earned my way back into the brotherhood. And you detail some, some good missions.

• 1:46:08Jocko Willink?

  Some pretty hot missions, you know, you guys gotten some pretty good gunfights. And you're getting towards the end of deployment and your TU commander. He's, he, you have a little conversation with him and he says, we're going to have you run as ground force commander on the next one. For a second, what this really meant failed to register. Really? JP in the date, at this point in the book, JP is a guy, he's your task unit commander. JP nodded, yeah, I spoke to Eric and Paul and we all agree, you're ready for it. Besides, this will help get you up to speed to be a platoon commander. At length, I finally answered, "That's awesome. Thanks for the opportunity. You earned it, bro." He turned to leave. I had done it. My career was back on track at last. I knew some in our community would always hate me for my mistakes,

• 1:46:52Jocko Willink?

  but I had earned back the trust of the men I served and fought with. Since 2004, I've been an officer. Within our community, rank does not automatically make you a leader. Your character makes you a leader. Your actions make you a leader. Rank is almost irrelevant. After years of selfish focus on myself, I'd finally understood what it meant to lead men of this caliber and what was required of a man in order to be part of this most elite of all fraternities. The letter in the safe would be destroyed. For an instant, the horizon ahead held no boundaries. And again, I skipped. This was not like an easy process, man. You worked your way right back up.

• 1:47:33Jocko Willink?

  You started with small jobs. You made some mistakes that you, you know, you, you talk about the, uh, you lazed a marine colonel and, and, uh,

• 1:47:45Speaker 02

  He was not happy about that.

• 1:47:46Jocko Willink?

  Not happy. So, little quick story. You're doing deconfliction and you, you can't identify. And so you escalate the deconfliction to a visible laser. And then, you know, they realized that, that both sides were friendlies and it was a Marine Corps Colonel that you were lazing and he wasn't too happy about that. And when you, when, when your commander brought you in and said, "Hey, what the hell happened?" You took ownership of it and said, "Hey, here's the mistakes I made," instead of blaming everyone else. So, big, big turning point. And...

• 1:48:20Speaker 02

  And I, and I think this important point, you know, you, you know, I mean, within our community, it's pretty hard to turn around when you've made a major mistake like that. I mean, often guys get out. Uh, we've had guys that have been sent to the fleet. Uh, some never come back and then some come back and redeem themselves, but in a community...

• 1:48:37Jocko Willink?

  And some just...

• 1:48:40Jocko Willink?

  Get put into a ostracized position of low importance inside the SEAL teams.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:48:46Jocko Willink?

  And it's like, oh, cool. Yep. We, you, oh, yeah, you're stationed over there. Yep, we know what you're doing and we know all about you and, and we get that you still have your trident and you're still considered a SEAL, but you're not a team guy and we all know that.

• 1:48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you would not be invited to go back to an operational billet, you know, you're relegated to training and all the, you know, other things. So, I mean, it really is for people to understand. I mean, our community is driven by amazingly talented warriors. And at the end of the day, you know, the leader, they rely on the guys next to them and their leaders to make those good decisions. So if you've made bad decisions, I mean, to be able to come back and them say, okay, you know, you've shown us that we can trust you once again to lead and make the right decisions. So it really, I tell people, it's the hardest road I've ever walked. I mean, when I got wounded, I was like, I got this.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, the trust when broken is extremely hard to rebuild. And I get asked a lot, how do you build trust with people? Either whether it's been broken or whether you don't know them. And it's very clear in the book. And again, this is why people should get the book. The way that you're tasking a commander, and I'm trying to think of the alias because I know him too, JP, the way that you're tasking a commander is very common to what a guy does. He gives you a little bit of responsibility and lets you, lets you earn a little bit of trust. And then, once you've earned a little bit of trust, it gives you a little bit more responsibility. Once you've earned a little bit more trust and that continued going, this is, this is now a six-month deployment plus a year-long workup or whatever. So he's been giving you a little bit of trust and you've been earning and earning and earning and earning back your trust.

• 1:50:24Jocko Willink?

  And you are digging out of a deficit, right? That's a lot harder. So that is a lot harder when, if you show up as a new guy, you're like a zero, right? Cause and then you're going to get a little trust and maybe you get to a, a point two. And then you get a little bit more responsibility and you get to a point four. You were at like a negative nine. And so you had to just, you had to earn your way back to get to zero. And then, once you're at zero, then you had to build up. And at this point in the book, and you did some, again, I'm sorry, I'm not going to go into everything, but you know, you had a pretty dynamic. Potentially horrible situation unfolding, big gunfight going on, some head counts not accounted

• 1:51:05Jocko Willink?

  for, people and you took charge of the situation and that probably is what, you know, jumped you up a bunch of levels in people going, okay, you know what, we can trust this guy and, and, and then you continued these to, to build that trust and up to the point where, and I need to explain this because I didn't, up to the point where the task unit commander said, okay, one of these next coming missions, we're going to make you the ground force commander and what that means for civilians is that means you're in charge of everything. You're going to go out, you're going to be the, this, the, the main leader, the senior leader, not even the main, they're going to be the senior leader, the guy in charge of everything that's happening on the battlefield. That's the, what the ground force commander is and you're now being, it's the end

• 1:51:47Jocko Willink?

  of deployment, you're being told, look, you've, hey, we want you to be the ground force commander on one of these upcoming operations and that is the ultimate trust for someone to give to a subordinate is, hey, I want you to go out and take my job that I would normally do. You go do it. So, pretty amazing comeback.

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  Oh, humbling. I mean, yeah.

• 1:52:12Jocko Willink?

  So, you're almost at the end of deployment and a, like a, an op comes up.

• 1:52:20Speaker 02

  We were one week away.

• 1:52:21Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  We were, we were packing up to get ready to go home.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  Note to self, those last operations, be careful.

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  First and last, man. The first missions and the last ones.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  Getcha. You, and it's, the, the mission comes down, it's one of those missions where you guys are kind of like, this probably isn't going to go down. It's sketchy intel, high visibility if it goes and you're thinking, because we get a lot of those, you know, oh, this is going to happen and you get used to getting all amped up and then eventually you don't even get amped up anymore. You continue with your daily routine, go to the gym, workout, whatever. And this particular case, you guys, you, you literally went to the gym, you're working out like normal and.

• 1:53:02Speaker 02

  I didn't think there was a chance in hell this mission was going to happen. And some of the guys were looking at it, but I, I just didn't think it was going to happen. It was already late. Uh, so we were outside really the window, um, you know, to really try and execute in a, in a good manner, in my opinion. And then there were external things, you know, there's some classified factors to it that I don't talk about in the book where, which were other, some of the really big reasons why I did not think there was any chance this was gonna happen.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  But, but it does. And you guys roll out on a, you know, Al Qaeda target and definitely you guys had the intel that bad guys expected, security team expect, enemy security team expected. And, and again, like, we would hear that a lot. I mean, it's not like, it's not like, oh, this intel's a hundred percent and you're not gonna do anything different. They tell you there's a security, uh, enemy security team, you're like, okay, check. We've heard that 27 times. They've only been there however many times. And so you always, always expect it.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  They, they had, there was a little more detailed information about this security detail that made it a little bit hairier than some of our regular missions. I mean, there were things that we knew, um, uh,

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  I can't get into the, yeah, I can't get into the details, but basically,

• 1:54:28Jocko Willink?

  More solid intel.

• 1:54:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So it made it a little bit different and kind of raised our hackles a little more than normal. But, you know, the process of the mission is the same. I mean, I know probably you, I've talked to other people, you know, the guys that did the bin Laden raid, the mechanics of that mission were the same. It was just a level, you know, how we take down a target is pretty much the same regardless of where you go. And it was the same for this case. There were just some things that made us go, hmm, maybe we should prepare a little more.

• 1:54:59Jocko Willink?

  You guys roll onto target and things get pretty, pretty intense, pretty quick. Once you've, once you've hit the target, you've got it secured. Now we got some squirmers, meaning some folks that we think have run away from the target building. Again, I'm not going to go into the full detail of the mission, which you did a beautiful job of explaining what this was like in the book. And that's why people should get the book so they can read it, but. As we mentioned earlier, this ends up in a firefight and you're in it. Going back to the book, I keyed my radio and called JP. Troops in contact, troops in contact. I have three wounded, including me. The machine guns were still blazing away at us and they walked their barrels right and left,

• 1:55:42Jocko Willink?

  crisscrossing our positions with hundreds of 7.62 millimeter bullets. I recognized that if I didn't get a tourniquet on what I thought was the stump of my left arm, I was going to bleed out. I looked back at Al and the rest of my team behind the tire. Right then, Al saw me get to my feet and try and run to join them. Al told me this later, but I have no recollection of standing up after I was hit the first time. The PKM gunner spotted me moving and laid on his trigger. According to Al, I'd only taken a step or two and my head whipped sawed forward and my body spun around to the left. I fell limp to the ground. The team thought I'd been killed.

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  Al recognized the dire situation we were in and called in an immediate fire mission. The AC-130 crew turned it down the first time, two times before, finally making Al acknowledge that if anything happened to us, it was Al's fault, not the gunships. The first 25 millimeter shells hit the thicket behind the enemy. I lay less than 50 feet from the enemy machine gun that engaged me. I drifted in and out of consciousness the entire time. Awake in a fog of confusion, one minute out, cold the next. Al risked his life to save me. During a lull in fire, he rose from behind the tire and charged over to me. Shaun laid down cover fire as Al ran into the teeth of that PKM.

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  Bullets cracked and whined around him, but he reached me and dragged me back behind the tire, where he put a tourniquet on my mangled arm. I remember nothing of this and I didn't know Al had even moved me to the tire until months after the firefight.

• 1:57:18Jocko Willink?

  The medevac bird arrived a few minutes later and the guys helped us aboard. Once we were airborne and out of harms way, the remainder of the task unit fell back to the original target compound to wait for extract, but the fight wasn't over. The gunshot gunship detected more movement in the thicket. Enough was enough. Al called in 105 millimeter howitzer from the AC 130 and turned the thicket into a smoking crater. Months later, when JP visited me at home, I learned that the Al Qaeda commander had fled the house when he heard our birds coming at the start of the mission. He left part of his personal security detail behind to fight a battle he had no stomach for himself. And they died to the last man after inflicting three casualties on us.

• 1:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Months later, another SEAL team ran the Al Qaeda commander to the ground and killed him. Justice served.

• 1:58:16Jocko Willink?

  So

• 1:58:20Jocko Willink?

  that firefight, and again, people should should read the book to get the details of that firefight. But just reading about you wounded, which I've covered that part. And now you're up and running, get shot in the face. And down every, you know, guys think you're dead.

• 1:58:40Jocko Willink?

  And, and, you know, I should have covered this with a little bit more detail, but you know, you're trying to make calls, you're trying to let people know what's going on. You're trying to decipher the situation because it was a rough situation that you guys were in. And you end up, you know,

• 1:58:57Jocko Willink?

  getting extracted.

• 1:59:01Jocko Willink?

  Your boys took care of you.

• 1:59:03Speaker 02

  They did. I owe my life to those guys. I mean, they fought back that gunship overhead. Um, you know, for special operations squadron, I owe my life to those guys. That was the closest fire mission ever in the Iraq war. Um, we were well, well, they wouldn't bring in that mission because we were, we were literally within any danger close parameter there were the machine guns that had me pinned down. Uh, we're about 45 feet, 50 feet away. So Al did an amazing job. I mean, this was his third combat deployment, you know, experienced JTAC, experienced team leader. And, you know, really, I mean, he hung it all out there, exposed himself to get me, save my life with my tourniquet. And the rest of

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  the guys, you know, fought amazingly to get us out of there and get off the X and survive. And, um, yeah, I wanted Al to get a Navy Cross. They downgraded it to a Silver Star. To this day, you know, I'll tell anyone he deserved Navy Cross. But all those guys did an amazing job. I owe my life, my life to them and the gunship. It, um, and obviously, you know, in the beginning of the book, you know, the thought that I'd lost my arm and what happened is actually, I guess, my arm was pinned under me. So when I reached for it, I couldn't feel it. And, you know, it just stunned all my nerves. There was nerve damage too, right?

• 2:00:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when, when, uh, and this is kind of an interesting point that I talk to people about and something I'm speaking on all the time now, this idea of surviving. So having trained in a career where we, where we learn how to execute ruthless and devastating violence of action in an ambush to crush the enemy and destroy the enemy in that kill zone on the X. And to now be on the flip side of that coin and be in a very well executed ambush. I mean, they had us, it was an L ambush. They had us caught in very good crossfire. Um, you know, and just sheer will for us to fight and, and

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  at least in that, uh, push back enough that it gave us a window. And, and by the, and sheer, we were sheer luck that there happened to be that tractor tire back there at least one point of cover. Because beyond that, there was nothing but thousands of yards of open Iraqi desert. But to be in that ambush, uh, in that devastating and withering crossfire, um, I stepped out of that ambush into another ambush. And the next ambush was what I call a life ambush. Suddenly here I was, I'd been on this amazing journey. Failure, growth, understanding, gaining experience and wisdom and redemption.

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  And, you know, career back on track, getting ready to screen and go over to the next level. SEAL Team was my goal. When I came back from that deployment, I was doing that. And suddenly to find myself laying in a hospital bed, so weak, I needed nurses to help me go to the bathroom from the amount of blood loss I had. The very first thing I woke to was the doctors telling me most likely they were gonna have to amputate my arm. I had no use of my hand. I had not seen myself in the mirror. My face was totally blown apart. I had lost my nose, cheekbone, my eye, my, the bullet traveled, the bullet hit me right in front of the ear, traveled through my face and exited the right

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  side of my nose. So it took off most of my nose, took out most of my cheekbone. It vaporized my orbital floor, so my eye actually dropped down into the newfound hole in my face. So it damaged my eye muscles. It broke all the bones above my eye. It shattered my jaw. It broke my jaw to my chin. So I had not seen myself laying in the hospital bed. And I'll be honest, I was, I wasn't ready to look at myself. I knew I had tubes coming out of everywhere. I was trached. I was wired shut. I had a stomach tube. That's how they were feeding me. So I stepped into this next ambush. I was, you know, with this thought of where

• 2:03:16Speaker 02

  do I go from here? And I'll be honest, for the first couple of days, I kind of struggled, and I think this is natural. So we talk about this idea of being pinned down on the X and how we have to survive in, whether it's a real world ambush, or it's a life ambush. For anyone that's out there that's encountered some sort of devastating event, and I classify a life ambush as an event that'll forever leave physical, mental, or emotional scars on you. You have to get off the X. So I'm laying there in this hospital bed, and I'm like kicking myself. I'm like, God, man, what if I, you do the things that humans do when bad things happen. We start to think, well, what if I had done this? Or what if I had done that? Or, you know, what if I could go back and change this fact?

• 2:04:01Speaker 02

  And I did that for probably, I don't know, 36 hours after I got to Bethesda. You know, just kind of lost in my mind thinking about it. And at one point, I just said, stop. You can't go back and change the past, man. What's happened's happened. The only thing you can do is shape the future. And I thought back to that journey that I had been on from ground zero, from that broken man in Afghanistan, ready to kill myself, to where I had come. And I said, dude, the only thing you can do from here is shape the future. So get off the X and go. And I never looked back from that point.

• 2:04:41Speaker 02

  And I tell people that, you know, you have to push yourself into those zones of discomfort so that you can handle these hard situations when they come. Because if you've never forged yourself, if you've never been put into these areas of discomfort, you're going to be crushed when they come because you're not going to be ready. I was so ready for that moment when it came. I mean, you know, it took me about 36 hours after I got home to figure it out. But still, that's pretty quick for a devastating injury like that. And I never looked back.

• 2:05:10Jocko Willink?

  You're in Bethesda. And just to kind of give a little bit of detail around that, you got some doctor named, female doctor named Dr. Mallard. And here we go, back to the book. Kind of, she's about to list your, kind of your situation that you're in. "With energetic bluntness, she laid out the extent of my wounds. The machine gun bullet entered just in front of my right ear. It shattered my jaw, vaporized my right orbital floor, destroyed my cheek, and exited through my nose. I'd suffered nerve damage as well. Virtually nothing was left in my cheekbone or ocular floor bones on the right side of my face. Sheena, her team, was amazed I didn't suffer greater eye damage, so that was a blessing. My nose was almost completely destroyed and we need a full reconstruction.

• 2:05:53Jocko Willink?

  They would need to repair my shattered jaw, implant a titanium plate to replace the ocular floor, and would have to repair the damage to the rest of my facial bones on the right side. I was still under the impression they could fix me right up and get me back into the teams."

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  Not, not, now I was not so sure and you at this point, your jaws wired shut and your tricked so you can't talk, so you write out a note. How many weeks are we looking at here, doc? Weeks? She said surprised. No, Jay. We're talking years. A few years at least. Years. It didn't even sink in at first. There will be progressive surgeries. Each one will need to be fully healed before we can move on to the next one. She went on to explain that there was no roadmap for the extent of the, because of the extent and nature of my wounds. My case was highly complex and I would require extensive bone and skin grafts in the years ahead. After she left, I struggled to keep my spirits up.

• 2:06:52Jocko Willink?

  This was news I did not want to hear. Yeah.

• 2:06:59Speaker 02

  You know, and this is an interesting fact, you know, I talked to a lot of other team guys about this. I think a lot of us, we do a really good job in the SEAL teams and, you know, I, I'd like to assume other military units do the same. We do a really good job of preparing guys if they get killed. Uh, you know, page two, we make sure they're all taken care of. Um, I don't think any of us ever give much thought. I sure didn't if I was severely wounded. Uh, I think most of us think one side of the coin is, you know, it'll be merely, yeah, merely a flesh wound, you know, and we'll walk away and we'll get back.

• 2:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:07:34Speaker 02

  Uh, and then the other side of the coin is I'll be killed. And I was good with either of those. I, you know, just kind of resigned myself to that fact. So it was a whole nother thing to be severely wounded and be faced with this fact that, hey, you may be forever disabled.

• 2:07:49Jocko Willink?

  And it was tough for you and here's you run into this situation, going back to the book. One afternoon, two family members came to visit us. Erica took the opportunity to step out and grab some lunch for herself. I talked with them for a bit, which left, which quickly fatigued me. I started to drift off before I even realized it. While I was dozing, I heard them whispering to each other. I only got fragments of the conversation, but it was enough. They were full of pity for me. When Erica returned and my relatives departed, I wrote down all that had happened. Recounting it sent me into a fury again. I tore off the sheet of paper and handed it to her. Then I thought for a minute and added, "Never again. Never again would someone feel sorry for me.

• 2:08:33Jocko Willink?

  I fought for my country and I'll fight to regain my health so I will ultimately be able to return to our nation's battlefields." I was not here for sympathy. I was here to recover, to be a leader, to set an example of mental fortitude. It would be all too easy to give up into despair, but I refused. There were men and women in this complex who were far more badly wounded than I was. Missing limbs, burned, suffering brain trauma or eyesight loss. I would be grateful for what I had. Determined to succeed in the days ahead and would use these principles I learned over the last two years to guide me forward. I wrote a note to all my visitors and asked Erica to hang it up on the door. And here's what the note said. "Attention to all who enter here.

• 2:09:17Jocko Willink?

  If you are coming into this room with sorrow or to feel sorry for my wounds, go elsewhere." "The wounds I received, I got in a job I love, doing it for people I love, supporting the freedom of a country I deeply love." "I am incredibly tough and will make a full recovery." What is full? That is the absolute utmost physically my body has the ability to recover. Then I will push that about 20% further through sheer mental tenacity. This room you are about to enter is a room of fun, optimism, and intense, rapid regrowth. If you are not prepared for that, go elsewhere.

• 2:10:02Jocko Willink?

  From the management." And, uh, awesome. I mean, that picture got sent to me by someone and eventually it got sent to everyone by everyone. So it was a viral picture of that sign on your door that you eventually put in bigger writing to make sure everyone saw it.

• 2:10:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:10:28Jocko Willink?

  You you eventually you do get home. And and again, you know what always I I when

• 2:10:35Speaker 02

  Jaco, I want to make a really important point about this because that that that was really a learning point for me, or it was a a jump point. And it and it comes back to what we've we talked about earlier in the beginning, a little bit of the social leadership idea, who you surround yourself with. And in that moment, I had individuals that wanted to express pity. And I realized how dangerous that was, because if I listened too long to people express that, it would be ea- easy to accept that, to accept this victim mentality. And I'd walked that road before, and I was like, no way am I going to allow that to happen. It is a choice, and that's what people need to understand, you know, having a positive

• 2:11:16Speaker 02

  attitude on how you handle the situations you're in is a choice. And the more you accept positivity and drive it forward, the more you actually start to believe it, and it will create momentum. And that's really what happened with that sign. I said it, I will not allow that to happen again. No one will come in here and be sad, because I refuse, I will not allow it. And and you you never know the impact of the decision that you're going to make. You you never know how, even though deep down inside, you're like, you know, holy shit, how do I get out of this situation? But you project that positivity, who you can bring with you and bring up, and and how much you can leave a an impact that'll last a lifetime.

• 2:11:59Speaker 02

  That sign has gone on to help hundreds of thousands of people. I've had people write me that have had cancer. I've had people that have ri- that have written me that have had major horrific accidents. I didn't keep the sign. I had it framed, and it hangs in the wounded ward at Walter Reed. And the bottom of the sign is like rubbed clean now, and I'm told that all these wounded warriors, whenever they go to a surgery, they go by and they rub it. And it just it continues to have this impact. Secretary Gates wrote about the sign in his book. Michelle Obama's book just came out. She wrote about the sign and what the impact is. So

• 2:12:39Speaker 02

  One moment of saying, "I'm not going to allow someone else to drive my thinking," makes all the difference. And I tell so many people that. It is a choice. It is a choice. You can choose to be a victim and to feel sorry for yourself, or you can choose to be a victor and drive forward. Even if you don't believe it in the moment, it doesn't matter. You know, say it, live it, and start driving forward, and that belief will catch fire within you and everybody else around you.

• 2:13:10Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about it, man. And, and the unfortunate opposite of that is, when you start allowing yourself to be negative and you start listening to people that want to be negative and be, and drag you down, you can easily head yourself in that direction as well. So, when you make a choice and make a decision on which one of those two directions you want to move in, up or down, we recommend you move up, move forward.

• 2:13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Uh, later that spring, Eric and I went out to eat at a local Outback Steakhouse to celebrate the unwiring of my jaw. It'd been almost seven months since I'd been able to chew food. I was still underweight and confined to a wheelchair because of the grass, but we both needed a night out. I just, you know, I, when I was reading this book, um, I was like eating something, whatever, you know? And it's just one of those things that we all take for granted every single day. And, you know, I've had, I've had multiple prisoners of war on this podcast, and, you know, they're eating a ball of rice once a day, or a ball of rice twice a day that has chips of wood in it for three years, for six years. And

• 2:14:23Jocko Willink?

  here, here you are, you know, you're not a prisoner of war, but something as simple as eating a steak. And that really, like, hit me hard, because as you know, I take steaks very seriously. And, and to think that, like, for seven months, no steak. And the daily things, and, and, and that always gets me thinking about the daily things that, when I talk to my friends that have been wounded, it's like, it's the daily, everyday things. And as a matter of fact, uh,

• 2:14:55Jocko Willink?

  When we had Jim Webb on and he was talking about one of his friends that had been wounded in Vietnam and he's like, "That's the daily courage." Like, "That guy was courageous in Vietnam, but he's courageous every single day." Takes him X amount of time to get up out of bed, takes him X amount of time to get his prosthetics, it takes him X amount of time to do normal functions that people can normally do easily. He's got to struggle with them all and he does it every single day without complaining. Daily courage. And so, just thinking about you in that situation, man. Awesome. "I flew to Chicago almost once a month in preparation for my first surgery with Dr. Walton, which he'd scheduled for July. The airports and their crowds continued to be a torment. Little kids pointed at me and called to their mothers to look at me, too.

• 2:15:39Jocko Willink?

  People refused to talk to me. They'd act ashamed or embarrassed, or they'd set expressions of pity on their faces. Internally, I raged at them. Are these the people I sacrificed for?" Coming back from a ship, uh, coming back from Chicago on one trip, I just broke. Everyone who stared at me, I treated with a sudden boo. By the end of the trip, though, I realized I needed to do something different, or the bitterness would eat me alive. It gave me a thought. I came up with an idea. I went online and designed a couple t-shirts. The first one said, "Stop staring. I got shot by a machine gun. It would have killed you." I put an American flag on the back and called it Wounded Wear. So... Are you still making Wounded Wear shirts?

• 2:16:22Speaker 02

  So, Wounded Wear is on pause for right now, but it will be coming back.

• 2:16:25Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:16:26Speaker 02

  So, we, we, we've got some work. We're getting things online in 2019, but, uh, yeah, a lot of people have asked me, "When will it come back?" It will be back, I assure you.

• 2:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so, this podcast is eternal. So, most likely, when people are listening to this, it is live. You can get it. You can get your Wounded Wear t-shirt.

• 2:16:45Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:16:46Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah, you were talking about that, that sign, and that sign got so much attention and, and was so, uh, so impactful to so many people. You ended up going to the Oval Office. You ended up meeting President Bush with your family. Um, and then you ended up coming back to the White House again, and we're going back to the book. I went to Mike Montsour's.

• 2:17:14Jocko Willink?

  Medal of Honor Ceremony in the White House that April. Mike was a fellow SEAL who had jumped on a hand grenade thrown onto a rooftop. He had

• 2:17:26Jocko Willink?

  and saved two of his teammates in a firefight in Ramadi. He shielded his brothers with his own body and paid the ultimate price for that devotion.

• 2:17:39Jocko Willink?

  It was deeply moving to be there to see Mike's family receive his posthumous Medal of Honor. But while I was there, I met another SEAL named Ryan Jobe. He'd been part of the Team Three and had served with legendary sniper Chris Kyle in Iraq during the 2006 campaign. Ryan had been a Mark 48 machine gunner for the team and during a firefight that spring, a bullet had struck his weapon, then hit him in the face, destroying his right eye. He survived and reached Bethesda, much as I would a year later, but nerve damage cost him his vision in his left eye. The prospect of spending the rest of his life blind had to have been terrifying, though he never showed it.

• 2:18:23Jocko Willink?

  Instead, he announced that if he had to be blind, he would be the best damn blind man there was.

• 2:18:31Jocko Willink?

  So that's where I met you for the first time. Obviously, Mikey and Ryan and Chris were all with me in tasking at Bruiser, and you came out for the Medal of Honor Ceremony for Mikey. And I actually remember looking at you guys, you know, looking at you guys talking to each other. And I actually thought I had pictures of it, but I didn't. I thought I had pictures of you two talking, but I didn't have any pictures. But it was, it was crazy to sit there and look at both you guys that had been, you know, both been shot. Unfortunately, Ryan, you know, he lost vision in both eyes, which obviously could have happened to you very easily. And thank God, you know, it didn't.

• 2:19:18Jocko Willink?

  And you guys kind of, you know, I guess when you have getting shot in the head in common, you guys kind of became bros. And continue on here. Ryan and I bumped into each other on multiple occasions over the next several months. On one of the occasions, Ryan had come out to the East Coast SEAL Teams for a Wounded Warrior Benevolent Organization Conference. As we made small talk and met different people, I, Ryan, and another SEAL who had been shot in the eye were joking around and came up with the idea for a club for SEALs who had been shot in the head. It was a very small club. We decided to call the club Shit:

• 2:19:53Jocko Willink?

  SEALs Hit in the Head. We unanimously voted on our motto, "This Club Sucks." So, yeah, um, just, just, pretty awesome. And that's pretty much the, you know, that's definitely Ryan Biggles Job's attitude was, he was just gonna have a, an awesome time all the time regardless what situation he was in. He was gonna, he was gonna get after it. And, um, yeah, it was cool to see you guys meet.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, Ryan was awesome. And, you know, he was ahead of, it was interesting because the reconstruction process that they were doing with me was the same they were doing with Ryan. And obviously, I was blessed to keep my vision, although they were fixing things with this right eye. So often, I'd call him and I'd be like, "Hey, you know, you had this done? How'd it go? You know, what did you do? Do you have any recommendations?" Like anything, you know, you go to the people who have experience. So Ryan and I got close through that, you know, just kind of learning from him.

• 2:20:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, one of the, this, this was another bit of a, of a surprise to me. Again, this is the kind of thing that I never had to think about. But here you go, going back to the book, in the months that followed, I knew that I was in for the long game. The slog through surgeries and setbacks continued. And again, you gotta read this book to realize the absolute, just, medical, uh, uh, medical trauma that you're going through day in, day out. And this really drove it home to me.

• 2:21:29Speaker 02

  I called it medical buds.

• 2:21:30Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:21:30Speaker 02

  That's really what it was.

• 2:21:31Jocko Willink?

  Medical buds. And here's, here's one thing that just hit me like a ton of bricks. By the summer of 2009, I was starting to run low on the available patches of skin for grafting. My body was robed with scars from surgical sites and over a dozen grafts. That to me, I'm thinking to myself, I mean, you're running out of skin to graft to, to do, to do, uh, damage repair to your face. What is that process like?

• 2:22:02Speaker 02

  So, a lot of times, they harvest the skin from, you know, your thighs and areas. And, and it, and it wasn't that I was just running out of skin. They were running out of skin because I've got quite a few tattoos. So, my back is totally tattooed, you know, uh, you know, top of my arms. So, that's what the problem was becoming. Putting tattooed skin on other parts of your body is no big deal. They could have cut that in a second. But, obviously, they were like, you know, we did, I did not want to put tattooed skin on my face. Um, so, that's where we were starting to run into issues. And thi- this really is something that a lot of people don't understand with, with battlefield injuries is they're super dirty. Bombs are dirty, bullets are dirty.

• 2:22:46Speaker 02

  And you fall in the soil and you bleed into the soil overseas and that's dirty. So, the vast majority of wounded warriors come home, especially from this war, uh, with infection problems. And there's so many guys, myself included, that it's not your initial injuries that are as devastating. I mean, obviously, there's levels of devastation, but for so many of us, it's the infection problems. So, many guys come back with their limbs and end up losing their limbs because of the infection. I had major infection problems, which caused us to continue have to do more and more grafts. They would have to cut out what they had done because it was infected and failed. Um, they rebuilt my nose three times. Uh, so, the first two, they had to totally cut out and start over.

• 2:23:31Speaker 02

  So, that's why we were starting to run into issues. Hey, where do we, you know, where do we get more cartilage? Where do we get more skin? Um, they can use cadaver, but it does not, it does not last. It doesn't always take. So, they always want to use your own body. And that's where we started to run into issues.

• 2:23:56Jocko Willink?

  September 24th, 2009.

• 2:24:01Jocko Willink?

  Ryan Job is dead. I hadn't known Ryan incredibly well. I wouldn't call him a close friend. We talked on the phone occasionally. We shared a common experience and discussed our notes on recovery. And we shared a twisted sense of humor. But above all, I respected his spirit and relentless energy to recapture all he could out of life. He made the most of every moment and achieved things most people with their eyesight intact never would. In 2008, he climbed Mount Rainier. When I heard about that, I was blown away. In the climbing community, the 14,000-foot volcanic mountain in Washington State is considered one of the most difficult to summit in all North America.

• 2:24:45Jocko Willink?

  It has deadly crevices, narrow ledges, and glacial ice. It is as technical a climb as you can find. Mount Rainier claims, on average, three lives a year of those who aspire to summit. And Ryan made it to the top two years after that bullet robbed him of his vision. He and Kelly, who he had married, he and Kelly were getting ready to have a daughter together. Ryan had started a new life, found a fresh path to blaze, and had built something from the ruins. He really was being the best damn blind man out there. Then, with the snap of cosmic fingers, it was all stolen from him.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't know the story, there was, he went through one of his many surgeries, because he was still going through surgeries. And after the surgeries, there was complications and he, he died as well.

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  They, they, they killed him. I mean, they messed up.

• 2:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:53Speaker 02

  They overdosed him. That was a total mistake. And that slayed me.

• 2:26:01Speaker 02

  Ryan's death rocked me.

• 2:26:07Speaker 02

  Because I know how hard it is to stay positive and to drive forward despite these really hard injuries and it just it killed me to know that you know it was a medical mistake that killed him you know I mean it's hard enough to go through all this and you survive battle and you know all these things so that that that really shook me when Ryan had died.

• 2:26:39Jocko Willink?

  And you're still looking at unknown numbers of surgeries ahead at the time?

• 2:26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was halfway through so this was 2009. I ended up having surgeries all the way up until 2011.

• 2:26:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the other thing that was crazy about Ryan was I'm not gonna say he was out of the woods, I mean, but he was pretty damn far out of the woods and that's why you know to lose him like that was just a fucking nightmare.

• 2:27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:18Jocko Willink?

  You at this point you still want to get back to the teens and you're trying to get your arm fixed to the point where you can have enough mobility in it to to change magazines to operate your weapon so you're going to a bunch of different people trying to see who is who can make this happen you finally find a guy that's you know you think you have a good lead on somebody that can make this happen and you go to see him and he says going back to the book Jay I'm gonna be frank with you if you were my son I wouldn't let you do this what you have now is the best possible outcome if you proceed and

• 2:28:01Jocko Willink?

  have another surgery you'll probably lose some of the range of motion you have now worse you'll set yourself up for a lifetime of chronic pain.

• 2:28:12Jocko Willink?

  The drive home was a quiet one for me as I deliberated whether or not to roll the dice one last time. By the time I turned off the freeway for Virginia Beach, I knew it was not worth the risk. My days as an operator were over. Part of me always suspected this might happen. This might happen. Now, it was confirmed. I had no epiphanies during the drive home about what to do now as that dream to kick doors again slipped away. What would I do? How would I support my family? I didn't have any answers, but I knew one thing.

• 2:28:51Jocko Willink?

  I'd live as Ryan Job had, honor his memory, and never take another day for granted. Ryan's death reminded me that nothing is guaranteed in life. It can be taken away in a heartbeat. The life you've built with everything you've got can come apart in an instant from circumstances far beyond your control. You either adapt and overcome, or you become a casualty of those twists of fate.

• 2:29:35Jocko Willink?

  I refused to be a casualty. So you get this news that, hey, you're not, we can't do this. This is what, you got what you got. This is where you're at. And the idea of getting back operational again is gone. And it's funny, you and I were just talking about, you know, you were over talking to some students at BUDs and you had a guy that was, was, what, he'd been injured? Older guy, you said, wasn't going to be able to come back?

• 2:30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's medically dropped.

• 2:30:16Jocko Willink?

  Medically dropped, not going to be able to come back. And so, dream is gone. And it's interesting, you're talking to him, and you'd been through it. You'd been through it. And your attitude was, okay, what am I going to do now?

• 2:30:34Speaker 02

  And like I told him, I mean, so, you know, this, this idea of life ambushes, I told him, I said, "You just stepped into one." And they're, they're small ones and big ones. A lot of times, they're totally unexpected, but the reality is, most ambushes aren't totally unexpected. There are indicators that we see before we ever get into it, whether we're aware of seeing them or not. Sometimes it's after the fact that we look back. 9/11 is a good example of, there were indicators that we missed before 9/11 happened. For us as SEALs, when we move into areas, we know that's a bad area. We are in an area where we're getting channelized, there's high ground above us, this would be a good

• 2:31:17Speaker 02

  area to execute an ambush. You know, for me, I had seen those indicators coming. So I kinda knew what was coming. I had met so many doctors who said, literally, the doctor from Johns Hopkins, who put my arm back together, they actually wrote a medical journal about what he did with my elbow. I mean, he successfully reconstructed an elbow that had been totally destroyed. And it was always funny to me, there's an arrogance, and I think there has to be, there has to be a little bit level of arrogance and confidence in high-level orthopedic surgeons. So every time I'd go meet one of these guys, they'd be like, "Oh yeah, I can fix your arm." And then they'd slap that x-ray up, and I'd watch, it was

• 2:32:01Speaker 02

  like the air got sucked out of the room as they looked at it. And then they would look at me and they'd say, "Yeah, man, I'm sorry." They're like, "I don't even know how your arm's working the way it is." So, when I met the guy from Duke, who was one of the premier, you know, hand and arm guys, literally, the guy that put my arm together was probably the premier hand and arm guy. And I tried to get him to go back and do more. And he said, "No." He said, "There's no way in hell." He said, "Your arm," he said, "going into your arm and getting what we got is a miracle." He's like, "I am not going back in, and I recommend against anybody else doing it." Well, I still tried to find other doctors. And it was this guy from Duke who finally convinced me. So when that moment came...

• 2:32:46Speaker 02

  I kind of knew. So as opposed to this young man from BUDS, it was less unexpected than what I stepped, you know, for me, it was less unexpected. So it just became, where do I go from here? And, and interestingly enough, I had laid out some different things for myself. One, I wanted to do a 20-year career. So that kind of became my first thing. Can I still stay in and finish my career? Maybe I can't be operational. At this point, I was at damn neck, and I think I was at 18 years at this point. So it had been four years, almost four years

• 2:33:24Speaker 02

  from my injury. And so over a couple of days, I talked to, I was working in operations, and I just said, hey, what are our options? What can we do? And they actually allowed me to go work some new things, different projects and different things. So it was great. They allowed me to finish what I set out to do, but it also gave me a decent amount of time. At this point, it was another year before we started the medical retirement process, which actually took two years. So it carried me to 21 years. And it gave me a lot of time to really look at, you know, where does my future go from here? And to kind of lay out, what are my new passions? What is my purpose? And where do I go from this life after the military? What can I do with

• 2:34:09Speaker 02

  all these lessons that I've learned? And, you know, how do I pay it forward? How do I honor Ryan? How do I honor all these guys that every day I walk by this granite wall? And they didn't get a choice. They didn't get a choice to come home. So thankfully, you know, I had that time. It's still within the community, but also coming to grips with the fact that, you know, like I talked to those young men about, so many people are so strongly tied to what they do for a living, that they cannot function if suddenly it's taken away from them. There's a lot of, I meet a lot of police officers and firefighters or professional athletes that if suddenly their

• 2:34:50Speaker 02

  career is over, they don't know how to function without that. They've tied their identity so much around what they've done. And

• 2:35:00Speaker 02

  I realized that the lessons that I learned in the SEAL teams and this journey that I had been on was incredibly relatable. And it had nothing to do with tactical lessons, you know, I didn't need to be the guy that got out and taught you how to shoot or do anything of that like that. What I realized is there were amazing life lessons. The lessons, human lessons, lessons in leadership and teamwork and overcoming adversity and this idea of helping people, you know, not only survive but thrive from crisis and ambushes. So that really started to become the path that I was walking and to help other wounded warriors.

• 2:35:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, I just want to wrap this last little section of the book because we're talking about the identity and what you invested your life into. And you say this, "I held the trident in my hand. This golden emblem had driven my life. I focused on it. I coveted it. I became enamored by it. I almost lost it and then I earned it back before I sacrificed my body for it. Only then did I finally understand what it truly represented. It carried the spirit of warrior poets like Mike Murphy, Mike Monsor, and Chris Kyle. It carried the spirit of my

• 2:36:22Jocko Willink?

  friends Ryan Jobe, Adam Brown, Mike McGreevy, Kevin Houston, and the 79 other men who have made the ultimate sacrifice for freedom and the brotherhood since 9/11. I didn't know why God spared me, but I did know I would find a way into the future where I would use each and every day to honor my brothers who had not made it home."

• 2:36:58Jocko Willink?

  And I think obviously you've done a lot to honor our brothers. And I think you continue to do that, obviously, every day with what you're doing and how you're doing it and how you're taking the lessons that you learned and bringing them to to more people, spreading the word broadly.

• 2:37:26Jocko Willink?

  What did that transition transition look like, like the, you know, from the time you got out into where you are now, because, you know, I mean, obviously, everyone that's in the military right now, one day, I hate to break the news to y'all, one day, you're going to be not in the military anymore.

• 2:37:43Jocko Willink?

  Bring us from, you know, the end of your career into where you are now and where you're focused right now and what you're doing.

• 2:37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I think that transition is a lot harder than people realize. I think a lot of things, I'm sure you experienced this, we take for granted the level of structure that exists in the military and suddenly you get out in this failing world and that's not there. I was a little bit fortunate enough that I had launched the nonprofit Wounded Wear later to become the Combat Wounded Coalition while I was still on active duty. But so when I got out, that kind of became my focus.

• 2:38:17Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 2:38:18Speaker 02

  I will say that I made the mistake that a lot of military members and especially special operations members make when they get out. I tried to do everything. Everything I saw was an opportunity that I didn't want to lose out on and I falsely convinced myself, yeah, I have the ability to do that. So, running the nonprofit, we did a lot of amazing things, you know, two and a half million dollars, we helped thousands of wounded warriors, even created a program specifically to help wounded warriors build structure, find their new passion. But what I started to realize, and I was doing all this while I was still trying to speak and develop content and work on things and take care of a family and kids and all these things.

• 2:39:03Speaker 02

  And I kind of had an epiphany in 2018. I'd been doing this for, you know, I had retired in 2013, so five years I'd been doing this and I suddenly realized.

• 2:39:15Speaker 02

  You've got to find that one thing that you truly are going to make a difference at. And I took a step back in 2018 and said, where can I have the most impact and what really is my new mission? What drives my passion? Where is my destination? Where am I going to set that course to go? And I realized, I look back, you know, we were doing a lot of great things with the nonprofit, but there's 43,000 veteran nonprofits out there. We are losing more guys to suicide right now than we lost to the enemy. And I said, okay, so one option is you go create a whole nother nonprofit, but there's a lot of good ones out there and I think that's part of the problem. It's diluting some of the message.

• 2:39:56Speaker 02

  So I said, maybe I'm better off focusing on helping a whole bunch of people with this message and lending my support to another organization. So myself and the board made the decision that we were going to phase down our organization in 2018 and 2019, made that shift that I'm totally focusing on delivering this content to help people overcome adversity, to, to launch themselves out of failure and to not only survive, which some people just survive from these life ambushes, from these massive catastrophic events, but to thrive from them, to use them as a launch point to get better and to understand how to do that.

• 2:40:39Speaker 02

  And because I realized, man, you know this, you've written all this amazing content on it and all that is coming into the second book that'll come out in December called Overcome. So I have online courses that are getting ready to come onboard here in the next couple of months and I just want to get out there and help as many people as I can and then lend myself to some of the organizations that are out there that are helping our wounded warriors specifically with post-traumatic stress and traumatic brain injuries. One of the things I've started doing a lot of research and what we're beginning to understand is, I used to think that if we could help guys find a new purpose after they got out, it would help solve their problems, wounded warriors.

• 2:41:22Speaker 02

  But what we're beginning to understand is that we have never... The way we train now and the way we have fought wars is exposing guys, especially in frontline combat units and special operation units to level of blast that we've never, and up until this point, the way we train in the military, we haven't done before. So, I mean, you look at our breachers and how many blasts we expose them to, just in training. Yeah. And what we're starting to see, I mean, I've had multiple friends now that have killed themselves who I said, "No way, no way." And I've watched these downward slides, and what we're starting to find out is we are creating physiological impacts on the

• 2:42:05Speaker 02

  brain from these continued exposures to these blasts. So, we need more research. We need, you know, we need more non-pharmacological solutions to these problems. And there's a lot of things that are out there that are on the forefront. So, one of the things with research, I started doing some stuff with the Concussion Legacy Foundation, which is the same group working with the NFL, or, you know, highlighting the impact of CTE on NFL players. And we're beginning to realize that some of our special operations guys, like Rob Guzzo, who took his life, severe CTE. But what they figured out is, it's different. Some of the premier neurologists that are out there are figuring out it's different.

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  It's blast, and the blast goes all the way through the brain as opposed to a concussion that creates an impact and there's a centralized location. Now, for guys, or even gals out there that have had multiple concussions, that creates more. But the bottom line is, we need this research. So, I donated my brain to the Concussion Legacy Foundation, and I'm encouraging all the veterans that are out there, if you have been in combat, donate your brain. You don't need it, you don't need it when you're gone, and they're not going to come early and collect, you know? But the bottom line is, it is an amazing way to be able to give back to the veterans that are coming up behind you, because they don't have enough veteran brains in the brain banks that are out there to understand the kind

• 2:43:30Speaker 02

  of trauma we're putting on our brains. And until they, and, and, and obviously they can't study the brains while we're still alive. So if, if you want a way to give back, look up the concussion legacy foundation and donate your brain. I did it. We need the research. 20, 30 years from now, we can make a difference to save some young warrior that's out there that got exposed to blasts and now can't figure out why his world is falling apart around him. So those are my passions. That's my purpose and I want to help as many people out there. I want to make you better, help you thrive from adversity, help you thrive from failure and crisis.

• 2:44:08Speaker 02

  And for our wounded warriors, I want to help try and solve this epidemic we're seeing in the suicides and the brain trauma.

• 2:44:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, that's just awesome. It's awesome to see you moving forward with that. And I know we've been going for a while here and that's probably a pretty good place to wrap. Where do, where can people find you? Where should people locate you and when they want to, when they want to hear from you?

• 2:44:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Best place, go to jasonredman.com. That's my website. You can see what I'm doing. You can contact me through there. I'm on all the major social media platforms. Jason Redman on Facebook and Jason Redman WW on Instagram and Twitter.

• 2:44:52Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Echo, speaking of making people better, do you have any quick recommendations on how, you know, we can improve ourselves?

• 2:45:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:45:02Jocko Willink?

  This is Aber Charles, by the way.

• 2:45:04Speaker 01

  I have one question. In Ranger School, when they told you to like, all right, when they asked you, do you need your Gucci? Was that the thing that kind of sent you over the edge? When they said the Gucci thing?

• 2:45:16Speaker 02

  No, I don't think it was that. Really, it was, it was the LANNAV comments. I mean, I had taught LANNAV. So the funny thing about that Gucci jacket is, so the Army guys were only allowed to wear the Army jacket liner. Well, we didn't have those. And I- So you had some Gucci Patagonia. I had the, remember the green fleece that came? Yeah, that's what I had. So every day I put that on, the Ranger instructors would lose their minds and-

• 2:45:46Speaker 02

  And in the beginning, I had such a bad attitude that I just took it in the negative way. But the second time I went through, it became the, how often can I put this on and spin these guys? So I still have it. To this day, I still have it. Every time I pull it out of my closet, it puts a smile on my face.

• 2:46:04Jocko Willink?

  Nice, nice. What else?

• 2:46:06Speaker 01

  No, that's it. For questions. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about getting better, though.

• 2:46:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and Jay's about to start training in jiu-jitsu.

• 2:46:13Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 2:46:13Jocko Willink?

  So he's gonna need a jiu-jitsu gi. So we need to get that hooked up. Where are we gonna hook him up with a gi from?

• 2:46:18Speaker 01

  Origin, hundred percent. Not even ninety-nine percent, hundred percent.

• 2:46:22Jocko Willink?

  One hundred.

• 2:46:23Speaker 01

  Origin, all made in America, by the way.

• 2:46:25Jocko Willink?

  Hey, that's what we need. Continue to grow this country.

• 2:46:28Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. So yeah, Origin, if you're into jiu-jitsu, getting into jiu-jitsu or already into jiu-jitsu, you want a gi, a new gi or another gi? Origin made.

• 2:46:38Jocko Willink?

  I thought you were gonna say used gi.

• 2:46:40Speaker 01

  You can get a used one.

• 2:46:41Jocko Willink?

  Is there a market for used gis? No.

• 2:46:43Speaker 02

  Not that I know of. It probably depends on who wore it. I guarantee there's people out there that would love a Jaco gi, but that gets a little weird.

• 2:46:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that doesn't smell good.

• 2:46:54Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, maybe some, some people, maybe if someone like lost weight or something, you know, I don't use this gi anymore.

• 2:47:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, you do. You wear out gis too. Eventually, you wear out a gi. Although, I was talking to Pete the other day, the amount of gi pants or gis, period, that have been returned is like so, he said, yeah, we get like three gis back a year with some of that's actually worn something out. They just don't wear out. The Orange Gis just do not wear out.

• 2:47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:20Jocko Willink?

  So get some of that.

• 2:47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta like, um, yeah, like if you lose weight or something and then you don't use it anymore. Or if you're like, you get the new one and you know how like you turn you back to the old one because the new one, that's the new hotness, you know? You don't really wear it anymore, so you give it to your friend or something like this.

• 2:47:37Speaker 01

  There's that.

• 2:47:38Jocko Willink?

  You can get gis, rash guards, t-shirts, uh, other stuff.

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:43Jocko Willink?

  Supplements.

• 2:47:43Speaker 01

  Supplements. Joint warfare.

• 2:47:47Speaker 01

  Joint Warfarin and krill oil turned out to be the most important supplements there are, in my opinion.

• 2:47:51Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 2:47:52Speaker 01

  He thought it was a protein powder and the creatine. That's what we thought in the beginning, not anymore. Joint, joint warfare.

• 2:47:58Jocko Willink?

  In the nineties, we thought that?

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, yes, I agree. We do have joint warfare and krill oil. And if you do want protein, you might as well enjoy it.

• 2:48:08Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:48:09Jocko Willink?

  Get yourself some Molk. It's still good for you. Get on the Molk train. We need protein. We do need protein. We need the protein. That's why we have Molk, which, have you tried Molk? I haven't. Okay, we're gonna get you some Molk and especially, well, it depends what flavors you like. I like mint chocolate chip. I am a fan of mint chocolate. Okay, so we'll get you some mint Molk, but apparently Doc Luke hates mint. Apparently, he was going Berserker the other day, saying, why would you drink something that tastes like toothpaste?

• 2:48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but so as it turns out, some, you know, to the back to another fence analogy, some, it's like you either love it or you really don't like it. That's what, as it turns out, that's the situation with the mint.

• 2:48:50Jocko Willink?

  We got mint peanut butter chocolate, vanilla gorilla. I, I'm a huge fan. Peanut butter chocolate. Okay, so, okay. That's my jam. I do like mint chocolate, but peanut butter chocolate. I got hostile with my whole family the other day. Well, not with my whole family, with my wife and my youngest daughter. Because there was no, I wanted some yogurt and there was no blueberry, there was no strawberry, there was no coconut, there was only vanilla. And so I started saying, why would a human being in 2019 buy vanilla yogurt?

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  Like choose of all the.

• 2:49:26Jocko Willink?

  I get if it comes in the variety pack and you end up with it. Understood, but straight up select it? No, wrong answer. So I had to get hostile, super hostile. And I was telling my wife and my youngest daughter that they are crazy for just liking that vanilla.

• 2:49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they are for sure, but at the end of the day, you know, you gotta understand other people, they have other opinions.

• 2:49:47Jocko Willink?

  My, my youngest daughter, nine years old, she makes, so what she does is she takes strawberries, cuts them up, and then she puts whipped cream on it and then she takes Warrior Kid Molk Strawberry and sprinkles it.

• 2:50:00Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 2:50:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:01Speaker 01

  Cormier Jaco.

• 2:50:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, a little protein.

• 2:50:05Speaker 01

  Protein from, yeah, it's good. Oh, yeah, Warrior Kid Milk, that's for the kids, right? A little more formulated for them.

• 2:50:11Jocko Willink?

  I know that possibly do drink it like me.

• 2:50:15Speaker 02

  They sneak it.

• 2:50:16Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, they do. Also, if you want to represent while you're on this path, jujitsu, working out, waking up early. You wake up early?

• 2:50:23Jocko Willink?

  I do.

• 2:50:23Speaker 01

  How early?

• 2:50:24Jocko Willink?

  I get up at five.

• 2:50:25Speaker 01

  Damn, okay, so the up early crew, if you're on that, and you want to represent aesthetically, Jaco has a store, it's called Jaco Store. So go to jacostore.com, that's where you can get shirts, Discipline Equals Freedom, a shirt that has Jaco's face on it, that says good backwards, it's for you, it's a message for you. Anyway, you want to represent?

• 2:50:46Jocko Willink?

  Very fitting for today's story, right?

• 2:50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:48Jocko Willink?

  Looking at yourself.

• 2:50:49Speaker 01

  Yes, adversity, that's essentially what it is.

• 2:50:51Jocko Willink?

  Got a bad problem going on, good.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  Good opportunity, look forward, actually, I like that, like, you know, because there's a lot of different approaches, you know? Like you say, get off the X and like, look forward.

• 2:51:02Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely. You have to, so many people look back, they look back at what they've lost, they look back at,

• 2:51:07Speaker 01

  What's going on right now, kind of thing, which is natural, by the way. Of course, right? But man, yeah, that's good.

• 2:51:14Jocko Willink?

  You look back long enough to assess what you did wrong, and then you move forward.

• 2:51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:18Jocko Willink?

  Learn some lessons and then move forward.

• 2:51:20Speaker 01

  But yeah, so yeah, if you want to represent, go to jacostore.com, a lot of cool stuff on there. If you like something, get something. New hoodies out there, by the way. By the way.

• 2:51:29Jocko Willink?

  Are they thick?

• 2:51:31Speaker 01

  Brother, thick.

• 2:51:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that doesn't, you know, that's not what I'm looking for.

• 2:51:34Speaker 01

  Well, you know.

• 2:51:35Jocko Willink?

  We're making, I think I'm gonna call them, when I finally get the hoodies that I want, I'm gonna call them Michigan hoodies. Or Minnesota hoodies, for them people.

• 2:51:43Speaker 02

  Maine Eskimo hoodies.

• 2:51:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're up north.

• 2:51:48Speaker 02

  North polar vortex.

• 2:51:49Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Polar vortex.

• 2:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:51Jocko Willink?

  You think they wanted that lightweight hoodie during the polar vortex, bro?

• 2:51:55Speaker 01

  No, but I'm just saying, there's like different regions of the world, so.

• 2:51:59Jocko Willink?

  You get that line with fur guaranteed for 20 below?

• 2:52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:02Jocko Willink?

  You're on to something. The region that we're talking about is cold.

• 2:52:07Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, okay, I dig it, and that is a good name for it, for sure.

• 2:52:10Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 2:52:11Speaker 01

  So anyway, yes.

• 2:52:12Jocko Willink?

  When it gets cold, you can have hot Jaco White Tea.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:52:15Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to cold Jaco White Tea, you can get those on Amazon.

• 2:52:18Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 2:52:20Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast if you. Want to, don't forget about the Warrior Kid Podcast.

• 2:52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good.

• 2:52:27Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people say that's the best podcast for kids ever.

• 2:52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:31Jocko Willink?

  And hearing that a lot.

• 2:52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, from kids.

• 2:52:33Speaker 01

  And here's why you feel that way. You won't be wrong, by the way, if you feel this way. Because it's so simple. So you're like thinking of it in terms of, oh yeah, when my kid listens to this, oh, they're gonna get it.

• 2:52:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:43Speaker 01

  Fully. And then you listen to it, you're like, dang, I kinda get it too, you know, like it's kinda for me, so I.

• 2:52:48Jocko Willink?

  That's a problem with adults, man. We complicate everything. We do.

• 2:52:52Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 2:52:53Jocko Willink?

  That's the, uh, that's why I love the Warrior Kid books. This is a message for a 10-year-old. And guess what? I've had, I have many adults that say, hey, thank you for writing that Warrior Kid book. Echo is one of them.

• 2:53:06Speaker 01

  Another one.

• 2:53:06Jocko Willink?

  Nice. Yeah, so there's that. Don't forget that Warrior Kid. Soap from Young Aiden. 13-year-old warrior kid, has his own business. He's getting after it. He's got goats up in central California. He milks them. You can't sell goat milk or whatever in California because they got all these rules. So what can you do with it? You can make soap. He started making soap. And his motto is, stay clean, which I paid up. Don't worry. Don't worry, I gave it to you. I'm so arrogant and egotistical, I want to take the credit for the, for the name or whatever the mantra of, of Aiden Soap Store.

• 2:53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:44Jocko Willink?

  That's messed up. That's so, that's weakness right there.

• 2:53:47Speaker 01

  It's a collaborative thing, I think, so.

• 2:53:48Jocko Willink?

  YouTube channel. Echo makes a bunch of videos. Speaking of arrogant, he thinks his videos are great and he posts them on there.

• 2:53:54Speaker 01

  I.

• 2:53:55Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:53:56Speaker 01

  I've never demonstrated that, but yeah.

• 2:53:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 2:53:58Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:53:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay. You sure about that?

• 2:54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think so, yeah.

• 2:54:03Jocko Willink?

  Sending me little clips with the big excitement.

• 2:54:05Speaker 01

  I wanted you to see. Alright. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yes, yes, sir. Yeah, YouTube. That's a good, and the video version of this podcast too, by the way.

• 2:54:13Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:54:13Speaker 01

  You know, you can see what everybody looks like, if you care about that sort of thing.

• 2:54:17Jocko Willink?

  People watch, people watch the ones with guests because they want to see what, because they know what I look like. They know what Echo looks like. They want to see what Jay Redman looks like.

• 2:54:24Speaker 02

  They want to see, what does a man look like that took a round through your face?

• 2:54:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. They're going, at that point, they stop the podcast and press play on YouTube.

• 2:54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. See what up.

• 2:54:34Jocko Willink?

  See what's going on.

• 2:54:35Speaker 02

  It is, it is, uh, $2 million in sexiness. So if you've ever wondered where your American tax dollars went, it went to a good cause this time.

• 2:54:43Jocko Willink?

  You're not quite the $6 million man, you're the $2 million man.

• 2:54:46Speaker 02

  I'm the $2 million man.

• 2:54:48Jocko Willink?

  Psychological warfare. You can get that too. It'll it's it's a little something to help you out. Look it up on iTunes. That's all we're gonna say about it. Period. Period.

• 2:54:59Speaker 01

  I have more to say.

• 2:55:00Jocko Willink?

  Period. You gotta go, man. Jay's gotta go.

• 2:55:03Speaker 01

  Alright. Well, maybe Jay doesn't know what psychological warfare is. Okay, this is what it is. It's a it's an album with tracks, Jaco tracks, telling you how to get through moments of weakness that you might come across.

• 2:55:13Jocko Willink?

  And about instilling that discipline to get up, I've actually listened to psychological.

• 2:55:21Jocko Willink?

  I thought I got flanked for a second, but it actually wasn't.

• 2:55:23Speaker 01

  I stand corrected.

• 2:55:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What else we got?

• 2:55:27Speaker 01

  We got Onnit. If or when you add to your home gym situation, your home fitness situation, go to Onnit.com slash Jaco. A lot of good stuff on there. Get a jump rope if you don't like. Get rings. Actually, rings are 100% in my opinion. I'm signing on 100% the best thing that you can get.

• 2:55:44Jocko Willink?

  I need some rings. They're the first I know where to go. I've been thinking about that for my home gym. Oh, you definitely, you definitely gotta have rings in it. That's the first thing you need. I used to say the first thing you need is a pull-up bar, but you can do more with rings and you can do pull-ups. So you might as well just get rings.

• 2:55:59Speaker 01

  And kettlebells too, by the way. Onnit has some solid ones.

• 2:56:02Jocko Willink?

  We got some books. Okay, first of all, book, I again, read a bunch of excerpts today, but not even close to putting, giving justice to this book, The Trident by Jason Redman. We will have it up on the site, right?

• 2:56:17Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. It's on the top menu.

• 2:56:20Jocko Willink?

  On the top menu of books on the podcast or something?

• 2:56:22Speaker 01

  Books from episodes. It'll be.

• 2:56:24Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever looked at our website and thought, oh, that looks like a cool website for 1996? I was wondering if I was the only guy. I was wondering if I was the only guy and I was like, yeah, well, that's 96, but that's cool. Maybe Echo's just doesn't like me.

• 2:56:37Speaker 01

  Retro.

• 2:56:39Jocko Willink?

  Retro is in. In 28 more years, it's gonna look cool. That's what's happening with the with the website. So.

• 2:56:45Speaker 02

  You know, you're ahead of your time.

• 2:56:46Jocko Willink?

  The Jaco's store website looks all cool.

• 2:56:49Speaker 01

  Yes, it does.

• 2:56:50Jocko Willink?

  Why is that?

• 2:56:50Speaker 01

  Well, you know, various reasons.

• 2:56:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool. That sounds great. Uh, we also got some books. Mikey and the Dragons, kids book for kids between the ages of four and.

• 2:57:05Jocko Willink?

  100.

• 2:57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100.

• 2:57:06Jocko Willink?

  So get Mikey and the Dragons, Way the Warrior Kid, and Mark's Mission. Those are out and we have book three, which I completed is being drawn by the artist right now, John Bozak. Uh, we're gonna put that up so you can preorder it so you, so I don't sell out of books like we did Mikey and the Dragons immediately. So I will fix that this time. I apologize last time. Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual, get that, how to get after it. Audio is on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play. Extreme Ownership, first book that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin and the follow on to that, The Dichotomy of Leadership. Talking about don't go too far in one direction or the other as a leader, or you will blow it. Echelon Front's my leadership consultancy and what we do is solve problems through leadership.

• 2:57:51Jocko Willink?

  Whatever problems you have in your organization, I 100% guarantee they are leadership problems. That's what they are and that's what we do. Me, Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, Mike Sorelli, Mike Byma. Go to echelonfront.com if you need help with leadership in your team or organization. The muster, speaking of leadership, this is our leadership conference 2019. This is when it's going down, May 23rd and 24th in Chi-Town.

• 2:58:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:58:21Jocko Willink?

  Chi-Town.

• 2:58:22Speaker 01

  Chi-Town.

• 2:58:23Jocko Willink?

  Chicago. We're gonna get stakes. We're gonna, we're gonna talk about leadership September 19th and 20th in Denver, Colorado. We're gonna get stakes there too. And then December 4th and 5th in Sydney, Australia. We're gonna go there and yes, we're gonna get stakes there as well. Look, all these events have sold out completely and all these are gonna sell out too. So if you wanna come, go to extremeownership.com to register. I haven't even, it's selling a lot right now and I haven't even posted anything about it. So I'm scared to post, so I don't want people to, I don't want non-podcast listeners to get a crack at it early.

• 2:59:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:03Jocko Willink?

  But I'm gonna have to post soon to let people know what's up. EF Online. So this is online, interactive leadership training.

• 2:59:13Speaker 01

  It is interactive.

• 2:59:13Jocko Willink?

  I know, I know. It sounds like one of those words, like a buzzword, right? Interactive, but you straight up interact.

• 2:59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, okay, remember those video games back in the day? We're all about the same age. Where on the old school computers, right? Where you can, you're like, oh, I'm traveling through the woods and I can go down this.

• 2:59:34Jocko Willink?

  Choose your own adventure.

• 2:59:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and you can choose one and it'll go, dude, it's kind of like that.

• 2:59:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes. You have to make leadership decisions in the online training. Once you learn the principles, you have to try and apply them to combat and business situations. So that's efonline.com. Check it out. You can get it as an individual or you can get it enterprise version for your whole company. So that's that. And EF Overwatch, where we're connecting combat proven leaders from the Spec Ops community and from the Combat Aviation community with companies in the civilian sector that need leadership, proven leadership to align and move their company forward.

• 3:00:15Jocko Willink?

  Go to efoverwatch.com for that. And if you want to continue this conversation, ask questions, give us answers. Tell me what I mispronounced. Tell me what historical fact I got wrong. Hit us up. We're on the social media, on Twitter, Instagram, and on the face.

• 3:00:40Speaker 01

  Okay, the Facebook.

• 3:00:43Jocko Willink?

  Jason Redman is at JasonRedmanWW. Echo is at EchoCharles. I am at JacoWillinkEcho. Anything else?

• 3:00:53Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you so much for coming.

• 3:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Jay Redman, any closing thoughts?

• 3:00:58Speaker 02

  Just shout out to everybody out there. You know, most importantly, obviously, my beautiful wife, who our journey has included in this book. So if you are one of the lovely females that are out there that would say, maybe this book isn't for me, it absolutely is. Once again, it is not a combat book. It is a journey of leadership and at its heart and soul, it is a love story. And my wife never batted an eye on this journey. And this book is dedicated to her and my kids whose love brought me home. So, big shout out to them. And a big shout out to both of you guys. Thank you for having me on and for getting out there. And we need more leadership out there. And you guys are putting it out there. So it's awesome.

• 3:01:41Jocko Willink?

  Brother, thanks for coming on. And obviously, thanks for your service to our country. Thanks for what you did for the teams. And thanks for what you're continuing to do right now. You've sacrificed a lot and you're still out there every day grinding and making things happen. Thanks for doing that.

• 3:01:59Speaker 02

  Amen. Overcome.

• 3:02:01Jocko Willink?

  And of course, thanks to all our military personnel that are standing watch around the world to protect our freedoms. And utmost appreciation for those wounded warriors like Jay, who continue to sacrifice bravely every day for the freedoms that we all enjoy. And also thank you to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, correctional officers, border patrols, all the first responders out there who stand watch on the home front to keep us all safe. And to everyone else out there that's listening, there really

• 3:02:45Jocko Willink?

  are no excuses. There are none. Men like Jay Redman prove that. Men like Ryan Jobe prove that without question. So don't allow yourself to fall short. Don't allow yourself to give anything less than everything you've got to take the fight to the enemy, whoever and whatever that enemy might be.

• 3:03:16Jocko Willink?

  Do what you're supposed to do, be who you're supposed to be by going out there every day.

• 3:03:24Jocko Willink?

  And getting after it.

• 3:03:27Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Jason Redman, and Echo, and Jaco. Out.