Ravi Patel's Pursuit Of Happiness

What’s the best way to grow old? Are we over-parenting our kids? And how can I strike the right work-life balance? These are just a few of the questions Ravi Patel was struggling with. So the actor, filmmaker, husband and dad decided to explore how foreign cultures grapple with them. The result is Ravi Patel’s Pursuit of Happiness, a docu-series in which Ravi enlists his friends and family in overseas adventures in search of answers to life’s questions. Perhaps you caught Ravi’s 2014 hit documentary Meet The Patels, a funny and touching first-person family adventure in which Ravi enlists his traditional Indian parents in his search for love, leading him down a rabbit hole into the world of arranged marriages. Streaming on HBO Max, the new show digs even deeper — a poignant and timely deconstruction of American exceptionalism that ventures beyond buddy travelogue tropes. Today Ravi shares his story — and the many lessons learned along the way. Hardly your ordinary actor, this conversation begins with an exploration of Ravi’s unique path. His past life in investment banking. His current interest in health and wellness. His grapple with identity and indoctrination. And his sundry adventures navigating the vicissitudes of Hollywood. We then pivot to the many nuggets of wisdom Ravi has gleaned from his personal journey. And we tug on the questions explored in his Pursuit of Happiness travels to Japan, Denmark, South Korea and Mexico: Why are Americans so unhappy? How can you be a good parent? How do you find work life balance? And how can we responsibly promote inclusion for all? Recorded pre-election, this conversation is equal parts light-hearted and profound — a mix of laughs and uppercase Truths on all things love, partnership, parenting, purpose, and passion. It’s also a friendship origin story. The first of what I anticipate will be more conversations to come. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I love this guy and everything he’s about. And I hope you find this conversation as refreshing and uplifting as I did. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  You know, wanting to be closer to your family is not uniquely Patel. I mean, it's all of us. And I think it's at the core of a big struggle that we're having as Americans right now, which is individualism, privacy, while also wanting to be a part of something that's bigger. And I would argue, like, that's the American crisis that's happening right now, is trying to figure out a way, like, what are our communities? Is our community our family? Is our community something bigger than family? Obviously, as a country, we're having an existential moment. I don't know that there's anything more American than the constant need to optimize.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  It's the need that we all have for more, and it's exhausting. There's never been a more important time in history for people to understand the tenets of essentialism than right now, because there's so much noise. If I can keep finding ways to make...

• 2:06Speaker 01

  The pursuit of my own joy and the pursuit of improving my relationships with the people I love, if somehow I can keep making that my work, talk about the greatest privilege in life. It's just so fun trying to figure out ways to do better. And if you can laugh and smile along the way, I mean, that's, it's just the real juice in life.

• 2:27Rich Roll?

  That's Ravi Patel, and this is episode 560 of the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:43Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. Quick reminder, my brand new book, Voicing Change, is now in the wild. A gorgeous Trojan horse that sneaks up on you with its coffee table book aesthetic and photography, but it keeps you hooked with the timeless wisdom inspired from the last eight years I've spent hosting this podcast. I'm really proud of it. It's available exclusively and only through my website. We are shipping globally, and of course, signed copies are available. To pick it up and to learn more, visit richroll.com/vc. And while you're there, take a moment to also check out our Plant Power Meal Planner,

• 3:25Rich Roll?

  thousands of customized plant-based recipes at your fingertips, access to nutrition coaches and more, all for just $1.90 a week at meals.richroll.com. Did I mention the delightful Ravi Patel is on the show today? Why, yes, he is. Many of you may have seen his documentary a few years back, Meet the Patels. That was my personal introduction to this actor, filmmaker, entrepreneur, and philanthropist. And it's pretty great. It's this funny, touching, first-person, family adventure movie that he made with his sister, in which Ravi enlists his traditional and quite charismatic, I

• 4:04Rich Roll?

  might add, Indian parents in his search for love, which ultimately leads him down this rabbit hole into the world of arranged marriages. However, the main occasion for today's conversation is Ravi's new limited series on HBO Max. It's called Ravi Patel's Pursuit of Happiness. And it's really fun, sort of Blue Zones meets Down to Earth, my man Darren O'Leary's show, travel slash cultural slash self-exploration docu-series in which Ravi goes on these cool adventures to places like Korea, Japan, and Denmark, immersing

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  himself and his friends and his family in a variety of cultures to find answers to life's questions. But it's actually deeper than just a buddy travelogue. It's really, I think, at its core, this poignant and timely deconstruction of American exceptionalism.

• 5:13Rich Roll?

  All right, Ravi. So this one begins with a walkthrough of Ravi's path, his past life in investment banking, through the world of acting, and into his more recent exploration in health and wellness. We talk about his grapple with identity and indoctrination, and of course, his experiences in Hollywood. But then we pivot to the juicy stuff. Ravi shares priceless nuggets of wisdom he's gleaned from his own personal journey and his travels by dint of his new show, Pursuit of Happiness. We dig into questions like, why are Americans so unhappy? How can you be a good parent? And how do you find work-life balance? This

• 5:58Rich Roll?

  one is fun. It's lighthearted. We recorded it pre-election, so no discussion of that. And it's full of uppercase truths on all things love, partnership, parenting, purpose, passion, and many other subjects. I love this guy. I like everything that he's about. And this one is definitely a friendship origin story. I hope you find it as refreshing and as uplifting as I did. So here we go. This is me and my new BFF, Ravi Patel.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  What's on that laptop? Talk to me. You got like an outline of some shit? You got talking points?

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  I hired a private investigator to dig into your life. I'm gonna expose it all right now.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  It's my crutch.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Fucking, I love it.

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  In case I completely have a brain fart and can't think of anything to say.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  We do have at least one good mutual friend. That's Ukash.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:57Rich Roll?

  I texted him the other day to let him know you were coming in. And then I was like, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Cause then I figured Ukash is probably gonna contact you.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  He did.

• 7:05Rich Roll?

  Which he did, right?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But not, not, uh, not as a result of that. He and I were texting anyway.

• 7:13Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were, okay.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  And in fact, now I'm realizing I still haven't called him back. He called me this morning. I was like, I'll call you a little bit.

• 7:18Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  And, uh, I was like, I was like, sorry, it's been a while, morning. He's like, don't forget you got, you got, you got Rich rolled today. And I'm like, wait, what?

• 7:28Rich Roll?

  That's super funny. I love that guy.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  And then he gave you what I think is the best compliment I would wanna hear, which is like, amazing, normal guy. And those are my favorite kinds.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  Well, I'll try to keep it normal. I'll try to keep it normal. I feel like, uh, you and I, our friendship has gone on a journey. That journey began, we became very close after the documentary came out. We were hanging out all the time. I felt like we were tight.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  You and I?

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you and I.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 7:54Rich Roll?

  And then you disappeared for a while. You pop up here and there.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Wait, did you watch it when it came out?

• 7:59Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And then I rewatched it the other day, cause it's been a while. When was that? 2007? When did it come out?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, you're way off. It came out 2014 or 15.

• 8:10Rich Roll?

  Oh, 14. 14 or 15. When you get old, it all blends together.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  It took place around 2007 or 8 or something.

• 8:16Rich Roll?

  Right. Cause you were making that, you were making that documentary for a number of years before it came out, right?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it took us five, five and a half or six years.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  It was the hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah. I mean, you know, first of all, my sister and I made it together. And we were both, you know, she had made one documentary before I had made nothing before.

• 8:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  So neither was I think, I think for both of us, it was film school.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  But then on top of that, we're siblings and I've also found now I know from other experiences, entrepreneurial and creative, that doing things two-headed are incredibly difficult. Cause you end up going head to head on.

• 8:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  You know, when you want different things. So it was exhausting and you know, especially when you add on that we were siblings and it turned out.

• 9:05Rich Roll?

  And you were living together, right?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Living together and I also think she and I, our relationship had not gotten to that point that if you're lucky with, do you have siblings?

• 9:15Rich Roll?

  One sister, yeah.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  An older, younger?

• 9:17Rich Roll?

  Couple of years younger.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And were you guys always, are you guys close?

• 9:20Rich Roll?

  Not super close, like we've never been roommates and we don't live in the same city.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  But, but would you say that you're friends? Truthfully, if you're being honest.

• 9:29Rich Roll?

  We've had ups and downs.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Rich Roll?

  We're getting closer now.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so my sister and I were a lot like, I think, normal siblings where we, we loved each other because we had to. But if I had to be honest now, looking back in retrospect, I loved her, but I didn't like her. And I wouldn't argue that she probably felt the same way about me. And because we were, you know, that, that making that movie is similar to what having a kid within a marriage does to you.

• 9:57Rich Roll?

  Sure, or starting a business together or anything else.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  It's like the stress test of your ability to work as a team.

• 10:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  And it tore us up, man. It tore us up and we, we fought so much, but you know, it was awful. And there was a day where we kind of like were sitting across from each other. I still remember she came over and it was to have a talk and it was kind of like, and I just started crying and I was like, I'm so tired of hating you and feeling like.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  I'm making you hate me like I'm a bad brother. Like I don't, this isn't the life that I want for us. And she started crying too. And it was like, it was a very like sibling Jerry Maguire breakdown breakthrough.

• 10:39Rich Roll?

  But it brought you together.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I think both of us, like we both went to therapy after that. And you know, I can say now that as a result of making that movie, that we figured out a way, we kind of forced ourselves in the same way that you have to do to marriage, where you have to decide these things that annoy me about the other person that I don't like. You have to find a way to accept them in the same way that we have to find a way to accept the things about ourselves. Like I feel like that has been my journey as an adult has been learning to love the things that I've always carried shame about and decide that they're like, they're part of us.

• 11:14Rich Roll?

  Right. That's the hardest part.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it's, it's all, I mean, all of it's hard. To me, they're all kind of different man, it's different manifestations of the same thing, which is like acceptance and love.

• 11:25Rich Roll?

  Right. When I went back and watched the movie this past week, it was interesting. First of all, on the subject of your sister, you, you take like a shot at her about the cinematography. And there's certain aspects of it, you know, just in the past couple of years, like technology has advanced so much and the camp, you know, the cameras have gotten so much better. So there's a like a lo fi aspect to so much of the footage. When you go back and you look at it.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  It's an understatement.

• 11:51Rich Roll?

  But it doesn't matter because the storytelling is so engrossing. Like you're just, you're all in from the get go.

• 11:58Rich Roll?

  But I can see, you know, how like enmeshed you guys were throughout that process to get it done.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, man. Well, actually the, the, the visual lack of, the lack of visual quality in, in the film was a problem. I mean, we, we, we got rejected from every major film festival two years in a row. And I think, you know, there were, there were two major points of inflection, I think, in making that movie. What it ultimately became. And, you know, one of them was realizing that we were trying to make a romantic comedy in a documentary. And we realized that the, the, the like female love,

• 12:38Speaker 01

  like the, the female love archetype was not actually Audrey, it was my mom. And so that had a big structural impact on the story. But the second thing was

• 12:48Speaker 01

  She and I, my sister and I, we did like thirty-two cuts of this movie. Deciding to lean into the essence of the movie, like lean in instead of trying to make it something that it wasn't, which meant, okay, it's our story. Like, go into the cultural nuances, go into all the specifics, even if it's not relatable. Don't worry about the commercial elements of the film. And part of that also meant, hey, this quality, this home video quality of the movie is, that's what we have, that's what this is. So let's actually lean into that. Let's, let's call it out. Let's make it actually, instead of an obstacle, let's make it a strength of the movie. And so we tried to make it, and, and I realized, you know, and I think over time, it ended up

• 13:33Speaker 01

  making the story more real and intimate, you know, once we decided to accept it.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and, and the audience is always right, right? So film festivals aside, ultimately, there was an inflection point where it connected with audiences and the audiences were like, this is a good movie and this needs to be. And then suddenly it's in theaters everywhere. It was a crazy trajectory once it connected.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Thanks for saying, I'm surprised you noticed that, but yeah, that is exactly, I mean, it was, it was, oh, man, it was such a beautiful, and to do that with my sister and with my family, like, and, and it's had an intense impact on us as a family, but also our careers. It really was, it was like the audience brought that thing, like, made that thing happen. They talked about the movie, they told you, they brought each other, despite what Hollywood was saying that that movie wasn't, the audience did exactly, it was, it was really cool.

• 14:26Rich Roll?

  And by the way, I'm chasing that juice. The honesty in the storytelling is what rules the day. And, you know, looking back on it too, is kind of like a cultural artifact. It's sort of presaged what you see on YouTube now, like the vlogging culture, because it's so hands-on, handheld, and you're in the moment with these people, and you just feel like you're in a relationship. Like, so when I joked with you at the beginning, like, you know, our friend, you know, like, I'm just meeting you right now for the first time, but I do feel like I know you, and that's because of the kind of authenticity and the stripped-down quality of, of that project.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Well, I feel the same about you from listening to your podcast. I mean, that, that is-

• 15:05Rich Roll?

  All two of them.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have, I mean, this is, I don't remember if we were going already at that point, but you have-

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Of an authenticity to you that you're just very accessible, a familiarity. And, and I think that is the beauty of this medium. That's what I love about podcasting. I love doing podcasts because it is a rare kind of conversation that I get to have. We would not be, I actually feel like you and I are the rare, like if these weren't here, we'd probably be having the same conversation.

• 15:39Rich Roll?

  The same conversation. That's the idea. Like if we were just meeting for lunch or dinner, I would be talking about the same thing.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  But I think that's, says more about you and I and probably our compatibility conversationally. But generally speaking, the conversations I have in podcasting are unique because they're so focused on, every, the two or three people that are there are mutually focused on creating the best conversation possible. And usually when you're hanging out with people, conversation is not so, you're not, you're not really working towards a goal of great conversation. You're chilling, you're hanging out. It's just a little more casual.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, that's what I'm trying to create here, but you know, I don't know. The audience can be the judge of that.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  You can be, you can be the judge of that.

• 16:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We should probably point out for people that are listening or watching who, who haven't seen Meet the Patel's that it's a story essentially about your search for love and this journey that you go on with your traditional Indian family back to India on this quest to, you know, explore what it would be like if you were to basically get an Indian bride in the context of that tradition, right?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:52Rich Roll?

  And all the shenanigans.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  And then we come back to the States. Yeah. And then we come back to the States and my parents start setting me up with Indian girls around the country through this process that is pretty standard within our community, which is setting me up with other girls who are last name Patel through these things called biodatas, which were matrimonial resumes. And, and in the mean, and meanwhile, there was this, you know, white girl that I had never told them about.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Who, by the way, I'm still friends with. And

• 17:24Rich Roll?

  That was my big question in talking about the arc of our relationship. Like, I felt like I deserve an explanation because it drops off with you and Audrey.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  And then it picks up with the TV show and I'm like, wait, you're married and you have a kid? Like, what happened?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  It's not her.

• 17:39Rich Roll?

  We gotta talk.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, did you just, did you just find this out?

• 17:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I watched the, I watched the show and I was like, what happened to Audrey?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  So, it's so funny because when the, when the movie came out, Audrey and I were no longer together. I mean, it took six, six and a half years and then, you know, the process of it getting out. And so, the audience reaction, you know, because the, the film has like a pretty, I wouldn't describe it as a cult following, but it's like, the people are big fans, like, they're some really big fans of that movie. And when they found out that I wasn't with her, the reactions were so, like, everything from, like, first of all, my wife looks Indian, but she's not. And so, like, there's a half Afghan, half white, yeah. And people who watched that movie would look at her and be like, you fucking sell out.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  You, you, you dumped the white girl and you went and got your parents' wife. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, wait, hold on. First of all, she's not Indian. Second of all, that movie happened at a point in time that was a long time ago.

• 18:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  And actually, you know, it's funny because we talked about like, is there a world in which we can, like, like, we had a lot of ethical conversations as the movie was coming out, like, would it make sense to add a coda that, you know, we've now broken up?

• 19:01Rich Roll?

  Like a postscript at the end. It must have been weird for Audrey when the movie was in theaters and stuff like that.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's weird for her the whole time.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  I mean, she's a private person, but yeah, totally. I mean, she's been an incredible sport. I, you know, I did this for everyone who was in the movie, like, because they're all friends and family. I let them watch it and say, take out whatever you want. And she was obviously the highest priority.

• 19:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And so, you know, Thank God I had her. She gave me her blessing, but truthfully, she gave me her blessing for that movie. It's, it's, it's a testament to how loving of a person she is because she clearly, I can tell you, she did it purely because she knew what it meant to me and my sister. She, if she had her way, that movie would never have gotten out just because it's like, it's like, why would she, like, why would she want to move a documentary about her life? Like, so private. And, um, but I am glad that she comes off, you know, in the way that she does in the movie, which is

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  And she's good now?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  She's always, she's always been good with me. I mean, like,

• 20:07Rich Roll?

  Glad to hear.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  You know, I'm sure there have been small moments here and there, and there's, there may be resentments that I don't know about, but like, you know, I tried, I tried really hard, especially with her, to, to do it in a way that was always with her blessing because, like, I always had, my sister and I both always had the opinion that the movie doesn't matter in the scope of life as much as, like, it was just such, it's a big deal for you to, for, for people you love to let you put a camera in their face also, so that that always mattered more to us.

• 20:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, behind the lens, like, there's this deep affection and, and love that you have for your family and its traditions and your parents, which we're going to get into because they're superstars.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Very, very, amen.

• 20:57Rich Roll?

  And, and this sort of openness and humility around this search for love, like, this idea that we do things a certain way in America, and layered on top of that is this sense of, like, American exceptionalism, like, whatever we're doing is the best way. And you're kind of in real time, like, rethinking that or deconstructing it and saying, well, maybe there is something to this Indian way that I'm overlooking, like, the humility to kind of set aside, like, your ideas about what might work and what might, what might not work, and you give yourself over to this process. And what ensues is essentially like, like, um,

• 21:38Rich Roll?

  Like an analog algorithm, you know, that's similar to the dating apps, but, but sort of manually administered by this network of Indians.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  It's not dissimilar at all. It's really not.

• 21:51Rich Roll?

  This is actually functioning exactly like swipe left on Tinder.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:56Rich Roll?

  Just in a, just in a different interpersonal way.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Except you have the help of some older Indian women and men.

• 22:00Rich Roll?

  And there, and then you see all these happy people who've been married.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  It's the brick and mortar version of Tinder.

• 22:05Rich Roll?

  Right. And you're like, well, I remember you, you did a podcast with Pete Holmes a while back and Pete was saying that he was rooting for you to marry, you know, to find the Indian woman. And I found myself thinking the same thing, like, I want this to work. And then I'm like, wait, like, don't I think this is retrograde? But yet I'm still kind of, you know, hoping that it's going to work out because I see your parents who are so happy, who knew each other for all 10 minutes before they got married or whatever it was, and have now been together for 40 years and are full of joy and life and have this beautiful, you know, ethic of service and are, you know, exude gratitude and all the things that, that we all want.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  And by the way, now, being married for a little while now, my perspective on that whole, like, I'm even more on their side of the court in terms of what really makes a relationship work. I was talking to my buddy the other day on the phone and I was saying that now that I've been married for as long as I have, what I realize more than ever is really, you know, all those things that I thought mattered in the, in a partner, like, they didn't. Like, the things that really matter, in my opinion now, are kindness and loyalty and commitment. Like, if, if, if someone, like, and after those three things, I think you can kind of be married to literally anyone.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  I really feel that way. Like, I think if you have those three things.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Then you have someone who can be your your co-CEO through life. And it's just a matter of figuring out how to be together, how to love each other, how to see each other, which is all born out of that commitment and kindness and kindness, especially, I think, is gets you more mileage than anything. I mean, my wife and I had like the toughest time, the first couple of years, especially with our kid, like having a kid kind of early in our relationship. And it was tough. I thought we wouldn't make it through. And but it's because of those fundamental things that we both had that we made it through those times. And as a result of doing that work, I think we're like a much better team now. By the way, I'm curious, I was going to ask you if you saw them filmed differently,

• 24:19Speaker 01

  having just watched it recently versus like if there was a difference to you watching it the second time at a different point in your life.

• 24:30Rich Roll?

  That's a good question. I mean, I've been married, I've been with my wife now for 20 years and we've got, I've got two stepkids and two daughters. So I'm further down the path on all of this than you are a little bit. I think when I first saw it, so that was 2014, trying to remember.

• 24:50Rich Roll?

  I don't know if it was that different. I mean, the thing that that's that's stuck out for me the most was just like the difference in like I already mentioned, like in like this sort of video quality now from what you expect. But in terms of like, in terms of theme, you know, no, I think it holds up. I mean, if anything, it's like, you know, my relationship to it is is pretty much the same.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Did you, did you, did it make you, and you don't have to have an answer to this, but did it, did, has it, have you, did it make you think about your own life in any way?

• 25:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I think what it did was, and this was the point I was just about to make, is it makes you rethink.

• 25:27Rich Roll?

  This idealized Western notion of what love is, you know, to kind of echo what you were just talking about. I mean, it's almost a setup here. It's like your partner has to live up to some ridiculous standard. You have to, they have to be super sexy. They have to, you have to, you have to have like passion for them all the time. You have to, you have to be compatible. You have to have shared values. They have to be your best friend. They have to be able to be your business partner. Like, there's so many boxes that have to get checked for you to say, this is the person for me. And fundamentally, when you look at your parents and you think, well, they didn't go through that like rubric, you know what I mean? They took this amazing leap of faith and they figured it out as

• 26:11Rich Roll?

  they went along. So if, if that's the way it's worked for them, and you look at the divorce rates in the developed world, it makes you think like, maybe we do have this wrong. Like, what is really important? And when you talk about kindness and compatibility, like, you know, I think that those things get overlooked and are kind of lower on the pecking order than

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, do they have a cool job? Are they fun?

• 26:37Rich Roll?

  Sexual compatibility.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're hot. Yeah.

• 26:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, this person's not hot enough for me.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or fun. Or, you know, yeah, I mean,

• 26:44Rich Roll?

  Right. They have to be comedians. They have to be, they have to constantly entertain you.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Have to have a cool, fulfilling career and all this, all this shit that when you're married, you're like, oh, none of that would even matter right now if that was, because that doesn't affect you laying next to each other in bed, you know?

• 26:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Just hanging out. It just has no impact on that. But those things that you just said, kindness, compatibility, those are actually part of that arranged marriage rubric through

• 27:08Rich Roll?

  They're just vetted.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  The values of community first that are embedded. Like, that's part of the reason why, like, Patel's, when to marry a Patel's, it's because they believe the same, like, they have the same Allegedly, the same values that are about community first.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  There's a commitment.

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  But in America, we don't have that kind of bonded community that you have in India, right?

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Certainly not right now.

• 27:34Rich Roll?

  It's like this ill-defined diaspora. Yeah, like where it's all about individualism. You know, it's a different cultural priority. And what was fascinating about the documentary is how the Patel's, when they migrated west, they recreated that network through, you know, basically this massive game of telephone, and sending around these essentially resumes of the people that are trying to get married. And were able to kind of maintain on some level that sense of being plugged in with each other that they had back home.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  I would venture to guess that it's actually, I think, one of the reasons why so many people gravitated towards it is because the, you know, wanting to be closer to your family is not uniquely Patel. I mean, it's all of us. And I think it's at the core of a big struggle that we're having as Americans right now, which is individualism, privacy, while also wanting to have, be a part of something that's bigger. And I would argue like, you know, that is, that's the American crisis that's happening right now, is trying to figure out a way, like, what are our communities? Is our community our family? Is our community something bigger than family? Obviously, as a country, we're having an existential moment.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  I don't really have any idea.

• 28:52Rich Roll?

  Well, what complicates it is when you juxtapose that against this idea of individuality. Like, what's important is like, what I want to do, and my success equation, and the path that I'm on. And that has to take priority over whatever relationship I have to my community. Like, that feels backwards to me. It should be the other way around.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  It does.

• 29:13Rich Roll?

  If we want to move forward productively.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think it's because there's like a false, and this is very American, which is this false sense of...

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Like, thinking that self-realization and the athleticism of getting to your highest potential in life is a selfish endeavor. I think, at least in my case, I feel like getting to my highest potential as an individual is fully part of my role and my family. Like, it's all about my relationships, about being a better husband, a better father, a better son. And, you know, all the people like in my culture, like in my Indian culture, I feel like are really trying hard to be the best versions of themselves while also becoming

• 30:07Speaker 01

  the best members of their community. Like, they don't have to be two disparate things.

• 30:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. But I think what's uniquely American is the priority on like the career path. Like, that's

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Achievement.

• 30:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like, so when you talk about being your best self, that really means like, how can I, how can I get ahead professionally? How can I be, you know, financially successful?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, but I also think that is, that's why, like, your show exists, is to, to help people reconfigure that false notion of happiness, right? I mean, I think everything about, I think, all these kind of like pursuits of spirituality, mindfulness, meditation, self-help, yoga, like, all of this to me is a rebellion that's happening in society right now, out of a need to figure out a way to feel connected to each other and, you know, closer to your own purpose.

• 31:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I think, I think a lot of that is motivated by the fact that so many people have pursued the more, you know, the traditional path and then come up against a ceiling with that and realize like, this is not making me happy. Or I was doing all the things I thought I was supposed to do. I was, you know, I was like, you know, paying attention to all the advertisements and trying to accumulate all the material possessions and, you know, climb this corporate ladder only to find out that there's no there there, right?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  I mean, there's nothing more American

• 31:37Rich Roll?

  Crisis.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  There is. Oh, I'm in that crisis right now. I mean, I did an episode about that crisis. I mean, I don't know that there's anything more American than

• 31:46Speaker 01

  The constant need to optimize and it is, you know, I was listening to your social media episode on the way here. That's what is at the core of that.

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  It's the need that we all have for more and it's exhausting. There's never been a more important time in history for people to understand the tenets of essentialism.

• 32:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Than right now, because there's so much noise. I mean, specifically the social media thing. I was like, oh, I like, it's a, it's a conversation that I think all of us are obsessed with right now. I literally, I just made my social media public like a month and a half ago.

• 32:22Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. How come?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Because I've always been scared of like, I've never been attracted to social media in terms of, um, I just have never been a guy like is on there all the time or, um, and, and I've always seen the toxicity of it. Like I've known always, whenever I've posted things that I check likes, like that feels terrible to me.

• 32:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  I feel something happening in my brain just when I'm holding my phone, even if I'm not looking at it. I feel like a freneticism in my brain. Um, and right now I'm addicted to my phone more than I ever have because I have so much work stuff happening.

• 32:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  And it, it's like, I'm ready to make big changes in my life, uh, for my brain in general, which we should talk about at some point, by the way, you know, and then I made my, my profile public and I am like, here I am, I have the show, I have, I have, you know, a bunch of things coming out and, you know, I have people telling me, hey, you need to do something to get your social media numbers up. They make you look less successful than you are. I'm like, okay, that's like literally the reason why I was private this whole time. Now I, if I was, if I was still private, I wouldn't have to worry about it. But now I have like 17, 18,000 followers or I'm at this point where like, I can't, I can't be private. Like I'm just like a weird private.

• 33:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  And now I like, I was like, should I just buy followers? Maybe let's just buy followers. I don't care. Like let's just, let's get this game out of the way and move forward.

• 33:40Rich Roll?

  Get a bot forum on board.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:42Rich Roll?

  And just.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  I'm okay. I have no problem with it though. I think the whole thing is so stupid. Anyway, I'm deep in the existential all of it right now.

• 33:49Rich Roll?

  Well, it's about your relationship to it. I mean, you've got this show out right now. So you have a vested interest in trying to make sure people know about it and all of that. And as long as you can create some healthy boundaries around it, I think it'd be all right.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  I wish, I just wish there was an Instagram where there weren't likes or comments, like.

• 34:06Rich Roll?

  They should get rid of all of that.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  I would be so down like, cause I, cause I do like communicating. With the audience and I like hearing back from them, but I don't like the likes and like, I don't like the metrics side of it at all. It doesn't feel good.

• 34:22Rich Roll?

  Well, that's one thing about having a TV show. Like, there's no comment section, you know, below the the stream where you can read what people think of it in real time.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Rich Roll?

  It's just out there. You know what I mean?

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  And well, let's get to the new show because in many ways, like it's very related to the original documentary. The original documentary being again, like you go on this quest to answer a question for yourself and you're willing to set aside like your idea of what you think is right. And you're, I think one of your superpowers is just being open, you know, like, let me hear what you what you think. Like, maybe I don't have it right. Like, what do you have to say? And you go on these adventures to find answers in different cultures. And it's cool, man. I think, you know, it speaks again to, you know, this idea that in America, we think we've got all this stuff figured out. That the name of the show is The Pursuit of Happiness. Like, are we happy in

• 35:19Rich Roll?

  America? Like, not really. You know, not really. If you look at the statistics, a lot of depression, a lot of mental illness, so much anxiety and stress now more than ever. So let's go to these other places and see what they're doing. And, you know, I learned a lot. There was a lot of stuff that I didn't realize. Like, I was in Copenhagen last summer, like last July. I fell in love with that city. I thought this place is fantastic.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  That means we were there around the same time.

• 35:44Rich Roll?

  Probably, yeah. It looked like it was in the summer when you were there, right?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:48Rich Roll?

  And everyone's swimming and like laying, you know, sunbathing. I was like, this is crazy. Like, I'm ready to move here. It's unbelievable.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Bikes and canals and bridges. I'm like, let's go.

• 35:57Rich Roll?

  And then I was all bummed out, you know.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  You're like, oh, I only enjoyed it because I'm white.

• 36:15Rich Roll?

  You know, same thing with like your adventures in Japan. Like, I had no idea about the detachment with the young kids and, you know, watching that little boy go on, you know, a grocery shopping adventure by himself. I was like, that is unbelievable.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Isn't that wild?

• 36:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  That was one of the coolest things we did. And obviously, I'm sure you had the same thought. Would never be able to do that here.

• 36:39Rich Roll?

  No.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  For so many reasons. One, we're just like, you know, I think the American notions of parenting are so, we've become very protective and fearful.

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  And, and... But also, I don't know that it's safe. It's not safe.

• 36:55Rich Roll?

  It's, it's not safe. It is a different world, but I think we've, that pendulum has swung too far. Like Jonathan Haidt wrote a book about this as well. Like, there's a lot of conversations happening around this very subject at the moment. That overprotection, you know, is not in service to our kids.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  It's really bad for them.

• 37:12Rich Roll?

  We have to allow them to have experiences and, you know, skin their knees and fall down.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  You know, I sound like an old man, but like you, you know, I'm older than you, but yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  I mean, we discussed this in the episode. It's really important.

• 37:24Rich Roll?

  Ride my bike around and I'd be gone all day and be back for dinner. And nobody thought twice about it.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think there, there's something about the way millennials were raised specifically that has led to a groundswell of overprotective, like, parenting. And it comes at great cost. The cost of it is grit. The cost of it is perseverance. And another thing I would say is an inability to cope with unfairness. And I, I see that now in a lot of people who, even like, um, like, uh, like, a lot of my employees are, are like, have trouble coping with unfair moments at work. And...

• 38:10Speaker 01

  In my, you know, in my generation, like unfairness is actually part of the game. But you don't, you don't, you don't let unfairness slow you down.

• 38:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  You, you, you know that unfairness is a, is a part of the fabric of life in every great experience.

• 38:26Rich Roll?

  There's a spectrum with these things. I mean, if you're being sexually harassed or there's some kind of, you know, racist behavior, that's one thing, but just having difficulties trying to figure out how to navigate personalities is, is a different thing altogether. And this war, this war is really being waged, you know, in academia where now like an idea that we disagree with is something that needs to be banned as opposed to

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Cancer culture.

• 38:51Rich Roll?

  sort of entertained and, and, um, and argued against. Like you develop your sense, your value system and your sense of what is right and wrong by, you know, butting up against ideas that you don't agree with and stress testing them. And that's kind of what college is about.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I totally, I totally agree. And, you know, it, it's, yeah, it's about the marketplace of ideas. Right? The idea that you're going to hear things you like and things you don't like. And by hearing as many different ideas as possible, you're able to discern truth from that.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  You're right. That's, that's happening right now in a very big way. And it's, it's disappointing. I mean, I will say the upside of all of that. And I think you kind of alluded to it is that, you know, it also has, out of it is born like a real culture of activism and passion that

• 39:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  is awesome.

• 39:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's amazing. So again, it's like, these things are nuanced. It's not a black and white, good or bad thing. Like that's a positive thing that's come out of this.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Well, I think the parenting thing is bad. I'll say that.

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  Parenting, yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I think the over parenting thing, I have a huge problem with it. But it's also part of my war at home.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  But your wife, your wife is more on the protection side.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying it out of resentment. Yeah.

• 40:07Rich Roll?

  She's reading all the books. This is the way we have to do it. And you're like on a laissez faire kind of.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, truthfully, she and I believe the same things because we've talked about it so much, but our inclinations are could not be more opposite, you know?

• 40:25Rich Roll?

  Did go into Japan.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  If my daughter's about to fall on her scooter, I'll give you the example. My daughter, my daughter's going fast.

• 40:31Rich Roll?

  She's like three now. How old is she?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  She's about to turn four in, in November. If she's going on her scooter and I see that she's about to hit something or fall, my inclination is.

• 40:41Rich Roll?

  Let her fall.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Let her fall. I'm not running after her and I'm not really particular unless it's like something really bad. I'm not going to even try to stop it from happening. Okay. My wife is in a full on sprint and vocalizing and then helping her up. And, you know, we both believe in the concept that you and I just discussed, but our inclinations are such the opposite. And it's something that.

• 41:06Rich Roll?

  But the tension between those two things probably is going to produce a healthy kid. Right? You need a little bit of both.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  That's kind of where we end up. Actually, it's, it's great that you said that because that's kind of, and it's that, it's that, it's that understanding between us that allows us to not get pissed off at each other.

• 41:24Rich Roll?

  We should explain what happened in Japan. I mean, you go to Japan and, and part of the idea is like, I want to learn a little bit more about parenting and they're doing something very different in Japan where they have extreme attachment when the kids are very young. And literally the baby is attached to the mom's hip 24 hours a day.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 41:42Rich Roll?

  There's no date nights. There's no babysitters. Like it's all about the kid. And then like a switch gets flicked at age six and you're like, you're on your own. And they've literally, you, you show this family that sends their six year old boy on a trek like he's.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  It's called the first errand.

• 41:58Rich Roll?

  He has to walk a half mile to a grocery store and basically get the food for dinner and.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  By himself, crossing streets in a city. People seem totally cool with that.

• 42:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Like in LA, like there would be.

• 42:10Rich Roll?

  You'd get arrested.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  He would get, he would have been picked up by the cops before he got to the grocery store.

• 42:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, and social services would be knocking on the door in five minutes.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And even in the grocery store, everyone just treated him like a normal kid.

• 42:23Rich Roll?

  Funny thing where you were like, the checkout person was like, look, she's acting like this is normal.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:29Rich Roll?

  You know.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Meanwhile, we're tracking him like we're stalkers.

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Because we're making a show about it. But it was, yeah, man, it was, it was eye opening, that whole thing. And by the way, strong themes of, you know, what we were talking about earlier, you know, it cannot be more the opposite in terms of individuality there. And you find that to be the difference with these countries that we see as better countries.

• 42:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Like that are, that are more organized or have a stronger sense of community. The kind of dark side in most of these countries is that they're actually that way because they're culturally homogeneous, or at least ideologically homogeneous, which means anyone who doesn't fit in that framework is in some way suffering or

• 43:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  oppressed.

• 43:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  To me, that is actually the beauty of what we're going through right now as a country is I feel like we have these minority communities that actually have a voice that are able to fight because in other countries, we don't even know that they're suffering. Here, I think we have a lot, a diversity of voices that's actually going through a reconciling of trying to become one. And my hope, and I think we're already seeing this in a lot of ways, is that this ends up being our Arab Spring.

• 43:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there certainly is a sense of significance around what's happening right now. And, you know, we all saw what happened in the wake of Arab Spring, too. There was a, you know, there was a backlash against that and it kind of swung the other way. But I feel like we're, we're in a very special moment right now where those voices are being heard and we're reckoning with, you know, how to move forward as a country.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  It is a, it is a crisis point right now. And here we are heading into the election. Who knows what's going to happen?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:14Rich Roll?

  I mean, literally, like whoever the showrunners are of this crazy television show called 2020 that we're in right now, you know, it's just bananas what's going on.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Definitely could not have written that shit.

• 44:25Rich Roll?

  There's nothing that's off the table at the moment, that's for sure.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Are you, are you and your wife, are you, are you guys pretty involved with the election? Or is it something that you're passionate about?

• 44:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  What's your relationship?

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  I'm active. I mean, I think, you know, look.

• 44:40Rich Roll?

  Everybody has a different way of being an advocate for what they believe in. And I'm not the one who's like pounding the drum, vote, vote, vote on social media all day long. Like I use, I use this podcast as a, as a platform to have more nuanced conversations about these kinds of things without outright, you know, telling people what they should or they shouldn't think or do. But certainly we need change, you know.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Do you believe in talking about your political beliefs?

• 45:05Rich Roll?

  To an extent, you know, I, I'm reluctant to, you know, I'm not a political pundit and I don't want to make this about politics, but I think what's, what we're experiencing right now transcends politics. It's about identity, you know, and it does speak to, um, you know, how we think about this place that we live in as a community and how are we going to cohere when we're so fractured right now and our ability to even have hard conversations has become so difficult and fractured.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, you know, I'm not big into politics by any means, I never have been. This is the first election where I've decided to try to bring awareness to voting and just the election in general. This is not even feeling super confident that I'm, you know, by any means the smartest guy to talk to on this stuff. But to your point, I think this is the first election I've ever felt that is about something that transcends politics. It's, it's about humanity. I think it was, it's about decency and it's just a scary time. I also think at the core of that is something that I find uniquely American, which is like, I don't talk about politics.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  And, and I think it has a lot to do with not wanting to, not willing to cause a ruckus, not willing to, like, there's some people who like to talk, to talk about politics means it's going to be controversial. Like, why does it have to be controversial to have a different opinion from someone on something like, you, you, you can talk about wanting to order different things on the menu without, I mean, I guess the point being that someone else's opinion could potentially threaten your own existence, but talking about it is also the only way that you can.

• 46:49Rich Roll?

  It's the only way. It's the only way. I mean, that's something you explored in the, in the Copenhagen episode pretty thoroughly. Like one of the things that, that guy said. I forget his name.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  He was so smart, the bald dude, the academic, is that what you're talking about?

• 47:01Rich Roll?

  It was the guy who said, look, in Denmark, like, we, you know, people aren't shrouding their political ideas like they talk about them, like, it's out in the open, right? And when you start to, you know, kind of, you know, keep them quiet, that's when they fester and become malevolent, like, everything is kind of out in the open there, for better or worse. I mean, they certainly have problems there, as you saw. But I think what you're able to do is sit with people who see the world very differently and make them comfortable. And whether that's a people-pleasing, you know, technique that you've developed as a defense mechanism growing up, or just, you know, a soft, like, social touch that

• 47:46Rich Roll?

  allows you to connect with people, whatever it is, you're very good at that.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 47:52Rich Roll?

  And we saw that in...

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Probably both is the answer.

• 47:54Rich Roll?

  My favorite line in the whole thing is you're like, you're gonna meet that Syrian dude who's in the government in Denmark, and you're like, is this guy like the Bobby Jindal of Denmark, right?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:07Rich Roll?

  And you sit with this guy who has a very different worldview than you, but you're able to have, like, not just a productive conversation, but almost like a fun conversation, like, you made him feel comfortable.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Well, I think to have, thanks for saying that, it's certainly intentional, but also born out of, you know, various insecurities and people-pleasing stuff.

• 48:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, growing up, you know, South Asian, in the South, and you talk about, like, your neighbors and things like that, like, you had to figure out a certain way to navigate the world.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's very accurate. Yeah, I think you're right, man. I mean, I think, you know, look, I grew up in North Carolina, so I grew up in the South, and I grew up brown, I grew up short, all these things that made me want to, essentially, I was trying to fit in...

• 48:53Rich Roll?

  You're not that short.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  I'm, you know, I'm cuspa short. I'm five, six and like half an inch.

• 49:00Rich Roll?

  That's not too bad.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Thanks, bro. You tall people. You guys just.

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  I'm not that tall. I'm five, 10.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  You're five, 10?

• 49:07Rich Roll?

  Five, 11.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  I'd kill, dude, I wouldn't. If I was five, 10.

• 49:10Rich Roll?

  All right, keep going.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even be here. I'll tell you what. I'd be too, I'd be way too big.

• 49:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you'd be with Tom Cruise up on the big screen.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, five, 10, I'd be the most powerful man on earth. It's only, it's.

• 49:21Rich Roll?

  It's all about height.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd be in like eight sports leagues. I'd be like, things, yeah.

• 49:27Rich Roll?

  Did you play basketball at UNC?

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, wouldn't that have been nice?

• 49:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was, I played ball a lot back then. I played JV basketball in high school. That was as far as I got.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  You, you're, I mean, you're clearly an athlete, obviously.

• 49:43Rich Roll?

  Not a, not a, not a eye-hand coordination guy, like an endurance guy.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's so funny that it's almost always two different groups of people. There's the like triathletes, then there's the people who's like, I'm obsessed with sports. In fact, I want to really soon do something big in terms of changing my habits and my lifestyle. And one of the destinations is to make it so I can play sports again because I realized spiritually, there's just something so special about it. There's something so filling, like to me, of playing sports.

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  Well, you're talking to the right guy. I can help you out with that.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Listen, listen, this is what I want to do. Okay? I'm not even kidding. Okay? I've, I found out, you know, four months ago that I have ADHD, which is the least surprising thing ever in the history of medicine. And I, you know, I experienced a lot of brain fog, focus is an issue. I'm not organized. But conversely, like all ADD, ADHD people, which you probably may, maybe as well, you know, very creative, very excitable, all those things. What I want now, because I'm a father and I want to, I want to, I want to be able to devote more real estate to non-achievement.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Okay? And that, and, and my brain is so constantly opportunistic, not necessarily in the negative way. I'm just always thinking of ideas. I just love it. And now I want to figure out a way to be more passive. Like to just chill and be present when I'm with my daughter, when I'm with my wife. When I'm watching a TV show or reading a book. Anyway, all that to say, I'm ready to make a big change in my life. I've been trying these ADD drugs. They're not working. I hate them. And so now with the with brain, with brain power, brain focus, memory, the brain itself being the final destination. I want to do some big wholesale thing. Maybe I get a bunch of my friends to do it. Maybe it's a social media thing I do. I know that when I turn

• 51:43Speaker 01

  things into projects, I do a better job of writing my own narrative within them.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  As someone who's done that.

• 51:48Rich Roll?

  Well, season two of The Pursuit of Happiness could be about this.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's going to be an audio documentary because I've already kind of started already taping these things. Some of the some of the things I've been doing to research for it. But I think what I'm going to do is change my diet, start to exercise regularly, change my body. I'm going to change my habits as in I'm going to I want to have a routine for the first time in my life, which I've never had a routine. And I'll probably take some nootropics and things to help my brain. So so nutritional changes. These are all things that I'm assuming are at the crux of who you are and who you've become.

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you want to you want me to hold you accountable? Because I can do that.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Let me tell you something. I would kill to have you hold me accountable. And you can help me. Can I send you what I think is like

• 52:38Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  A starting point for what the program could be?

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  I've had a couple of friends I've talked to about this who have helped me kind of put together. But it's all like hitting these big buckets of I want to have I've always been so admirable of people like you who are able to take such an athletic approach to life in general. But at the same time, I've been fearful that that approach can lead to a mental for like, it seems like a lot of people who have that approach of life are so obsessed with optimizing their lives that it comes at the expense of a sense of peace and chill.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. How do you feel?

• 53:16Rich Roll?

  I know what you're saying. Well, there's a whole like you're, you're, you're kind of referring to the, the kind of biohacker, you know,

• 53:23Speaker 01

  I'm thinking, I'm talking about Tim Ferriss.

• 53:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Where it's all, everything is, you're, you're optimizing every second of every day.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:29Rich Roll?

  I'm not really about that. I have a much more kind of Eastern holistic approach to all of these things. And I've done crazy things in, in, you know, sports and the endurance world and things like that. But for me, you know, I'm, I turned 54 in like a week. Like, you know, for me, it's all about trying to make sure that I'm showing up for my life the best that I can in all of these categories as a father, you know, as a, as a business person, as a partner to my wife. And, you know, how do we, how do we effectively navigate the world in our most authentic evolved incarnation across the board? And this, I started this podcast for that very purpose. Like I'd reached a point, I wrote a book, shared my story, and I'm like, what's

• 54:11Rich Roll?

  next? I had all these blind spots in, in, in my growth that I had to reckon with and confront and ultimately overcome. But that doesn't mean that the growth stops. The growth continues. Like what else am I blind to? How, you know, what are the other areas that I'm not paying attention to? And, you know, curiosity has fueled like this exploration on the podcast of trying to basically do like an audio version of what you did with your TV show, which is like, how can I be a better human? Like, well, this person over here seems to have an idea or two. Let's go talk to that person. And then synthesizing that, like, you know, over the years, you know, it's a very imperfect thing. And I certainly am highly flawed and have lots of problems.

• 54:52Rich Roll?

  But I'm in a better place now as a result of, of doing this. So merging, like where I think we're aligned is trying to figure out how to, how to merge our curiosity and our professional interests with our own. Growth trajectory, you know what I mean?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:10Rich Roll?

  And use those all together. The problem with that is that then you're always working. And then you have to look at that.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, my thing, my thing, especially because I have this, I've, I've, and you probably have this too, it's like, everything I do is actually so personal and purposeful. And so that can be-

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  Doesn't feel like work.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  That can be, but that's, but that's also a cop out for always working.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  Right. Are we working right, like, we're working right now.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  We're working right now.

• 55:34Rich Roll?

  I don't feel like this is work.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  This, I would say, this specifically is very different.

• 55:38Rich Roll?

  This is not work.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  This is very different, yeah. I've realized, just because I'm, I'm older and I'm starting to realize my mortality, that I have so many things about what I do that's forward looking. And I want to figure out a way to have better days. Like, how was today, was today fun as fuck? In some way, was it fun as fuck? And that, to me, has really reframed how I spend my time. Can I ask you this? Because, and ultimately, by the way, the goal of this conversation for me, we can talk about whatever you want, is I want to, I would love for you to make some suggestions on the game plan by the time we're done with this.

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  I want to first ask you, do you have, do you have a routine every day? Do you have specific habits every day? Like, is there a time you wake up? Are there certain things you eat at a certain time?

• 56:22Rich Roll?

  Yes and no. You know, I, yeah, I have, I have like benchmarks that I try to hit every day, but that doesn't mean that I hit them every day. And I try to be a little loose with it, so I don't create something that's so, you know, calcified that I feel shameful if I don't do it. But, yeah, I, you know, look, I'm, I'm self-employed and we're in a pandemic right now. So, does it really matter what time I wake up in the morning?

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  Yes and no. I, I wake up when the sun comes up naturally, I don't set an alarm. Then I, I, I meditate and I journal in the morning, and then I work out. And I try not to schedule any meetings or any conference calls or any kind of- Work-related stuff that involves me talking to other human beings until after 12. And I try to protect that time for my own creative pursuits and for training and working out and things like that and being with my family. That doesn't happen every day. You know, there's plenty of times where that gets intervened for various reasons. But that's kind of the general rule. And then the afternoons are for work and, you know, making sure that I'm home with my kids. And because I work from home, I'm around them all the time.

• 57:28Rich Roll?

  So the trick is what we were just talking about, which is that work bleeds into everything. Like, you're kind of always working and you're never working. So when are you turning it off? Do you have hard and fast, like, boundaries around that kind of stuff? Or does it just bleed into everything that you're doing?

• 57:43Speaker 01

  What time do you go to bed?

• 57:45Rich Roll?

  Between nine and 10.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Do you have a bedtime routine? Do you have a nighttime routine?

• 57:48Rich Roll?

  I sleep in a tent in the backyard.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 57:51Rich Roll?

  I do.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  No, you don't.

• 57:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I do.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Shut up.

• 57:54Rich Roll?

  I do. I've talked about this a lot on the podcast.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  I assume you have.

• 57:58Rich Roll?

  We could talk about it afterwards.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  With your wife?

• 58:00Rich Roll?

  Uh, no. That's a whole other thing.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Talk about the worst fight ever.

• 58:05Rich Roll?

  That's a whole other thing.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  How bad are things? Well, I'm in a tent in the backyard.

• 58:07Rich Roll?

  Listen, it's a whole thing.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Okay, I won't make your listeners suffer through.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  I'm happily married. We have a great relationship.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:13Rich Roll?

  But I've had sleep issues and I sleep better outside with the cold air. And the quality of my sleep is like tenfold better, sleeping outdoors. And it began with that. Like, we, so my wife and I would have this ongoing argument because I like the bedroom cold and she likes it warm. And it was always in the middle where I'm sleeping on top of the covers and I'm sweating and she's underneath all the, all the blankets and she's freezing and we're arguing and nobody's getting along. And I was like, I'm going outside. And she's like, knock yourself out. And I had an unbelievable night of sleep. And I was like, well, I'm gonna just start sleeping outside right now. And she's like, that's fine.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think, yeah, it's so funny. I have a picture of the, the temperature, the dual zone temperature control in the car and one of my first dates and my wife and it's like 20 degrees apart.

• 59:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  It's such a common thing. I mean, you know, my wife and I are both, I think we both have a, have codependent tendencies and we love cuddling. So that, that would never happen.

• 59:10Rich Roll?

  You could, you could try the Chili Pad, which is this thing you can, so your side of the bed can be cooler than the other side.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:18Rich Roll?

  So maybe start there.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  When you're journaling, are you doing gratefulness? Are you, are you figuring out, are you, are you planning your day in any way? Like things you want to do or accomplish?

• 59:28Rich Roll?

  It's usually a combination of morning pages. You know, the artist's way, you've been on the artist's way. So it's, it's morning pages lifted from that program and then a gratitude list typically.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Okay. But you're not doing any planning. You're not, you're not trying to figure out what you want out of your day?

• 59:42Rich Roll?

  No, no, no.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  When are you figuring out what you want to do out of your day? Like, how are you organizing? How are you planning your, your, your family or work hours? Or is there no plan?

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  Not a huge planner. I mean, in the afternoon, I'll organize stuff.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  But that says to me that you're just one of these guys who's like very, you're like, you don't have ADD and I already know that now. Like my whole thing is I can't remember, like I forget things and I'm, I'm very absent minded. So unless I put together a plan, which is what I do, I have all these systems in place that help my operating system get through the day.

• 1:00:18Rich Roll?

  You need guardrails, basically.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I need guardrails and moderation is something that I've never, ever had. I've never even been attracted to it.

• 1:00:27Rich Roll?

  You and me both, brother.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  I know that about you.

• 1:00:29Rich Roll?

  Least balanced person there is.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you do it out of passion. I do it out of, like, it's like my personality. Like I have been an intense, I go hard, like, you know, I don't party anymore, but when I did party, I would go hard. I was having the best night ever. When, when it comes to work, I go hard. Everything I, like even with diet, I go hard. Like last night, a guy came over to watch, I set up a football situation outside. You know, I ordered everything.

• 1:00:59Rich Roll?

  So do you experience shame for having that character disposition?

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  So that is something that at this point in my life, I've come to accept as part of who I am. But it's still something in terms of like my.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  My mental and physical health that I want to figure out how to harness in a way that's good for me. And so that's why I'm talking about doing something that's extreme, where I'm gonna eat clean for, you know, I'm thinking I'm gonna do like a three to four month eat clean as hell, nothing processed, maybe like pescatarian, you know, which I already am pescatarian. You know, we already don't eat really much, we don't really do a bunch. My wife is so all into health and wellness. So we already have a pretty clean situation. But, you know, I know that I need to do something that has rules to it because the day to day, like, like, the discipline that is required to really have a moderate

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  approach to life is just something I don't have.

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And so I know I don't, I used to have a ton of shame.

• 1:02:07Rich Roll?

  But if there were, if there were some hard and fast rules set up that were easy to follow and that were simple, you could follow them.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Rich Roll?

  And does there have to be a goal?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Well, that's a good question, man. And by the way, I just to the shame thing, I've carried shame my whole life about it. Only recently have I begun to accept it.

• 1:02:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Because I would make to do lists my entire life and be behind schedule within the first two hours of waking up. Like hundreds, if not thousands of times I've done this and failed. Sorry, what was, what did you just ask me?

• 1:02:41Rich Roll?

  Do you need a goal? Does it have to be, do you have to be driving towards some result? Or can you just follow like some kind of protocol for the sake of it? Because it's in your best interest?

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  I don't know. I've not, I've not thought about it that way. I mean, I know that one thing that I think about a lot are goals and priorities. I think about that a lot in like, you know, and so I think one could argue that you could shift the goal to being like, one of the goals that I'm, one of the things that I'm trying to reprioritize is how I spend my day and like what I'm literally doing with my time and am I enjoying life? And so I, I guess the answer is no. I have such a like,

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  My brain, like I am so, I have a very businessy opportunistic brain. Like I'm always, I just am always thinking about productivity and I'm thinking about enhan-, like my nickname with my friends growing up is the enhancer because I was never just happy with what we had there. I had to, you know, if they're all waiting for me to watch a movie together, like I remember one time, I think that's where the enhancer came from, was like, we were getting ready to watch a, something together on Sunday night in college and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, and I ran out the door, went down to the liquor store down the street. I came back with like, a bag full of like 20 different sodas and snacks and put blankets on every one and my buddy lost his cool. He's like, it's fucking enhancing.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  Right, right. What do you think that's about? I mean, is that, do you think that you, so on some level, I suspect.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  It's very Patel, I'll tell you that right off the bat. It's very Patel.

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  You find value, like you, you feel like you've got to show up in that way in order to be accepted or approved?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure there's some psychological thing where I'm like, where it's like, that's my like hero complex, right? Where it's like, oh, I'm, I'm the one who's gonna make everything better.

• 1:04:36Rich Roll?

  Right. And then everyone's gonna wanna hang out with me and at my house all the time.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably. Something, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's something about it.

• 1:04:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's an interesting thing, like, how do you, how do you channel and direct like the extreme personality? Like I had, do you know his book Atomic Habits by Scott James Clear?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  It just got recommended to me three or four days ago. I was talking about the power of habit and my buddy brought that one up.

• 1:04:59Rich Roll?

  Right. I had him on the podcast. The book is amazing. But he talks a lot about how it comes down to values, like being clear on what your values are and then aligning, not being goal oriented, but aligning your actions so that they're consistent with those values. And rather than setting these extreme, you know, creating an extreme situation that you're never gonna be able to live up to and then feel bad about, like two weeks in when you fall short, it's about these tiny little tweaks that you can make that then you develop momentum around, right? So you set yourself up for success by taking tiny bites as opposed to, but you know, like, we wanna like, say, it's gotta be like this and it's gonna be amazing, you know? And then we're like, we burn out, right?

• 1:05:41Rich Roll?

  It's an unsustainable energy source when you channel that extreme, you know, nature in 20 different directions at once. Like you're, you're not gonna succeed.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Which is me in a nutshell.

• 1:05:51Rich Roll?

  Right. But at the same time, you know, me relating to you very much on that, like, Tendency to want to be all in on like any given thing at any given moment. The idea of taking those little bites just is not appealing. You know, it's like, I need, like, I need it to be crazy in order to get me excited and enthusiastic about it. And I've had to like, accept myself for that and just try to figure out like some kind of workaround to do it. You know what I mean? Not that I have the answers to it.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  No, but you'd very much seem like you're on the other end of it. I mean, when I hear you talking about your lifestyle and your life in general, it's very much, I, I, I'm, there's envy. Like, I, I'm like, oh, I would love to get to that point, within whatever my own version of that is. But there seems, there's something very soothing about the way you described your life.

• 1:06:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a lot of chaos in my head.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  What are you unhappy about in life right now?

• 1:06:50Rich Roll?

  I mean, I'm still very ambitious and very driven and it's difficult for me to just be present and, and like gratitude is a practice. Like, I'm also a long time in recovery, so I have like my alcoholic tendencies that flare up.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  The ego stuff.

• 1:07:06Rich Roll?

  Resebents and my character defects and I'm, you know, it's whack a mole like every single day.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:07:11Rich Roll?

  And if I'm not actively participating in my recovery by dint of journaling and gratitude lists and my, you know, service and involvement in the recovery community, I can quickly get derailed. So, you know, then it's like, I gotta do all this shit just to like feel okay during the day? Like, how, how many hours does this morning routine have to be so I could just be in the world, you know? And then I have to come back to just gratitude, like, it's okay, like, everything is okay right now. Like, I don't want to get caught up in being irritable about the fact that, you know, we can't travel right now because it's a pandemic, like, I can't, I have no control over that.

• 1:07:51Rich Roll?

  But the amount of effort that I have to put into my process in order to be grateful and content and present in my day is quite a bit. And then not being resentful of all that work that I have to do to feel that way. Like, when I'm watching your TV show, to bring it back to it, you know, my hope was that, like, you're going on these amazing adventures. You return, you edit the show, you put it out, and then it all becomes about how many people are watching it. Like, is it gonna be a success? But truly, the success is dictated by the value of just having the experience. Like, we're gonna go to this place, and we're gonna meet these people, and like, how fucking cool is this? Right? And I'm gonna learn from it.

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  And like, the reception that that will have with the broader public is none of my business.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  I have thoughts on that, but just so I understand the point you're making, because you were making a point about your own life.

• 1:08:46Rich Roll?

  Being able to be content with...

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Not being so concerned with the ends.

• 1:08:51Rich Roll?

  Right, not being result-oriented.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:53Rich Roll?

  Like, we're having this podcast right now. Like, how this will be received when it gets published is none of my business. I don't wanna get caught up in that. I just wanna be able to enjoy the experience of sitting across from you right now, and that's all that this is about.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Well, I think you can, I think you can aim for things in life without necessarily ever getting there. And I think, you know, look, my show is actually a great example of it, because that came out of, like, meetings at CNN. It was right after Bourdain had passed away.

• 1:09:27Rich Roll?

  Right, it was set up at CNN originally, right? Which is why there are these weird ad breaks.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, that's exactly why, yeah. And it happened, so I met with them maybe a few weeks after Bourdain passed away. They were looking to meet with new talent. And when they said, "Hey, we wanted to give you a small amount of money to go make a pilot," they pretty much said, "Go do whatever you want." And the only thing they wanted for sure was that it had to have like this international culture stuff that Bourdain show had.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  But obviously, I'm not a food guy. And I thought long and hard, like, what is the show? Obviously, I'm thinking in terms of what could I possibly offer the world that they would wanna watch? But I really started going towards, okay...

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  What is something, because I've done so many, I've been involved with, you know, I've started companies, I've been involved with so many failed TV shows. I'm at this point in life where I know that things are going to get canceled, things are going to go away. We may or may not reach the top of the mountain here. And I was very fortunate when I got this opportunity to think to myself, okay, what's the version of this show where no matter what happens to it, it will have been one of the best experiences of my life? That was why I decided every episode, someone in my life is going to travel with me.

• 1:10:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Because that's scalable. I would do that forever. Someone that I'm close to, I'm just getting closer to, as opposed to traveling alone and being away from the people I'm close to.

• 1:10:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  No, okay. So that was, that was a good starting point. Another thing was, okay, like, what if somehow every one of these trips was a life-changing journey? Like, I think back, like, it actually, it's a trip, I don't talk about the episode of the show, I talk about the trip I took with this person in my life. And it's coming up at dinner just because it affected how I'm living today.

• 1:11:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  So that was what I chased. And I only knew to chase that, by the way, because of Meet the Patels.

• 1:11:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  I was like, how can I get that same juice in a show? That show, Pursuit of Happiness, is very much me doing something specifically because of the thing I'm doing. And, you

• 1:11:34Rich Roll?

  You're trying to solve the problem that you're having in that moment.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:39Rich Roll?

  What's top of mind for you that you are looking for answers to?

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Actually, I literally picked the episodes based on conversations I was having in therapy.

• 1:11:47Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Like, which I also taped in my therapy sessions. At one point, I was thinking about putting those moments in the, in the show, which maybe if I get to do a second season, I will. But I will say also, I mean, it's not entirely like, right now, like, the show has been out for a little over a month now, and I'm very anxious because I want to keep making the show. And so there is a little bit of that still. Like, I, I'm like, oh my God, I want to make this show forever. But, you know, I also think what makes the show something I'm proud of is because in earnest, it was You know, something that was authentic to me.

• 1:12:22Rich Roll?

  And that's the reason to do it. And also, that's the reason it works, because that comes across. And I think it's also interesting.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Same for your show, by the way. I mean, and we're so privileged to be able to do this.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  Oh, unbelievably so. You know, let's, let's check our privilege.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, 99.9% of people. Yeah.

• 1:12:43Rich Roll?

  Also, I think it found the right home in HBO, too. You know, prestige kind of television aside, for it to be on a streaming platform as opposed to cable television, I think, in this moment right now is, is, is good for the.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  I think if I get a second season, you'll be right. If I get a second season, I think you'll be right. The thing with CNN was I was like, definitely going to get a second season. And there's like a, just from a business perspective, there's a brand halo to having a show being talent on CNN. But I would, I think you're gonna.

• 1:13:16Rich Roll?

  It is with HBO, though.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's if I get a second season. Because I think if I get a second season, then I'll really get to make the show I want to make. Keep in mind, I only had four episodes of this first season. That show, in that season of, look, I'm really proud of it. But I think in retrospect, if I get to make more seasons, I think the first season will look like a B minus compared to, like, I think season two of this show could be, literally, I think, three to four times better than what I made. Just because you learn so much.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Anytime you do anything for the first time, I have such a stronger sense of creatively what I would do and how I would shoot it and how I'd produce it and where I would go and how I would even have these conversations.

• 1:14:00Rich Roll?

  How did you choose the locations?

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  It was very, you know, very like TV nitty gritty. Like, it started with literally like prioritizing the biggest questions that I'm thinking about in life. And very much through combing through like, I had one conversation with my therapist specifically to talk about what are the things, what are the best conversations we've had over the past, you know, two years, you know, so that was, it started with subjects and then I'd look into subjects by, I was just reading a lot of books. Okay. And then it was very TV, like we're, I'm sitting down with our, with our team and, you know, they're going off and doing research and finding cool places, right, to explore these questions because of something interesting culturally,

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  some, some contrasting way culturally usually fascinating way that they're addressing this question. Sometimes it's because they found a cool person. And then you're looking at it on a very practical level of like, we don't have a ton of days to shoot these. We have to, we can't be flying all over the world on time, like, you know, like,

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  When you went to Japan, did you go?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  We have Japan to Korea.

• 1:15:11Rich Roll?

  So you were, you stayed and did knock those both out.

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  I went Denmark. Yeah, we did Mexico first because that was like Mexico. So it was a one off. We're able to just fly down there, do that episode, come back, which is great. Okay. Then a few weeks later, I went on a long trip, which was Denmark to Japan and then South Korea. And South Korea, you know, that theme being work, life balance.

• 1:15:33Rich Roll?

  Was the Death Cafe the hook for that though? Was that what was discovered? Was that the reason that you went there?

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  I mean, Korea was very much, I think, tacked on because I knew I wanted to do Japan. And so, and it turned out, I don't know that there's a better place to have a conversation about obsession with achievement and optimizing every minute than, you know, than Korea.

• 1:15:56Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you could have done that in Tokyo also.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Could have definitely done it in Japan for sure. I agree. Yeah. But yeah, the Death Cafe was definitely one of the early things where like, okay, that's definitely in. I thought that was the coolest. Funny enough, I actually already write my eulogy every three to four years as an exercise.

• 1:16:14Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  To figure out what my goals are. It's like,

• 1:16:18Rich Roll?

  So yeah, like, explain to people.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  That scene, by the way, is one of my favorite scenes in this, in this series.

• 1:16:22Rich Roll?

  It's incredible. And your boy Matt, I mean,

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Have you met him? I'm surprised you don't know.

• 1:16:26Rich Roll?

  No, no, you know, he, he looks familiar and I'm, I'm sure.

• 1:16:32Rich Roll?

  We know some of the same people.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  He's an impressive dude. I mean, you should have him on the show.

• 1:16:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was like, that guy would be with Oma's and all the stuff that he's done.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Oh, he is one of the most interesting people.

• 1:16:42Rich Roll?

  And that crazy story about what happened to his, was it like, what happened to him physically? Like, was it a heart failure?

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  It was complete organ, like, shutdown. And we had to fly in this machine that replaced his heart. It all came out of stress, of some gastrointestinal issue. And the stress was so significant that it caused complete organ failure of, I think, four major organs, including the heart.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  And he was literally dead for four and a half minutes.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  He had his, his heart was connected to a machine that replayed, called an ECMO machine, of which I guess there are only 15 or something. So one had to get flown in. And it was like this whole, like, the story is just so miraculous. The extended version of his story is one of the most incredible things, like, like, getting through one in a million probabilities over and over again. There was a point where one of our friends who's, who works in the ER at the hospital, who was always kind of keying us in, and is a very pragmatic person, was, had told us, like, it's this, just so you know, it's extremely unlikely that he's going to make it through this. And we had that moment a few times. And it was, it was one of those things where it almost felt like television, because like

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  the doctors and nurses were crying when he made it. Because it was, and people, everyone, it's apparently one of the, one of the great stories that now is told.

• 1:18:03Rich Roll?

  And he's young, like, a young, fit guy, didn't have, like, comorbidities or anything like that? Like, how's he, what was he?

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  He is like, he is like, the man, he is like, the Tim Ferriss, like, prototype guy. Yeah, he does everything. Yeah, he's, he's tall, he's.

• 1:18:18Rich Roll?

  So you bring him to South Korea and you do the Death Cafe thing. You should explain to people what that is. But then it's like, this guy's already done that. Like, does he need to do this again? But it was very emotional for him.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. I mean, so the Death Cafe is, so, so, so, South Korea, for anyone who's listening, is, you know, kind of one of the greatest economic comeback stories of the world from like, the last 60 years. Extremely poor country that became productive. But the kind of downside of it has been a systemic. Systemic levels of workaholism, leading to

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  depression and suicide at unprecedented rates. And so the country is having to do unique things to get people to work less and also find happiness. So there's these new rules there in the workplace, in terms of how much people can work. You know, we went down this bridge that was called the suicide bridge where they have these inspirational messages because it's near their Wall Street where a lot of people commit suicide. And this bridge has inspirational messages on it and pictures of food, which is the most fascinating thing ever.

• 1:19:29Rich Roll?

  My whole thing with that was I was looking at it and I'm like, it doesn't look that high up. Maybe it was higher up.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  The bridge doesn't look high up. It's high up. Yeah.

• 1:19:37Rich Roll?

  So it is. The way it looked on TV, it didn't look like, I was like, it looks like you could jump and be fine.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Well, maybe, maybe I'm sure there's a small percentage of people who just made a poor, made a bad call. But yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  The food thing was fascinating because it did make me realize like, oh yeah, food is something that.

• 1:19:56Rich Roll?

  Food that brings them joy. They're going to not jump now. That's so weird.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  But I think food, I think it's more than that. I think food is nostalgic.

• 1:20:03Rich Roll?

  Right. Makes them think of their childhood.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you think about it, that's our, our food and music are very similar in that sense. They're connected to memories. And then one of the weirdest things I think and kind of cool is this death cafe, which is just like a cafe. You walk, it says death cafe on the door. You walk into a lobby, you, you know, you pay. They give you these forms where you're supposed to write your eulogy. And then a dude dressed as the Grim Reaper came and got us.

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  It's a huge complex too, right? Like how many giant conference rooms are there?

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Well, that was one of the funniest things to me because I'm like, again, I think in such business terms. I was like, what's the four wall profit on this place? Like rent, the square footage here is insane. And, and, uh, um, so, uh, yeah, the dude is a Grim Reaper came and got us. We had to take pictures for like, to put on our caskets. It's like headshots were taken. Then we go into this room where this guy talks to us about, you know, the meaning of death and what the experiences of us, you know, fake dying. Then we're led into this other room where there's, it's like caskets, tons of them. And do you see how many caskets were in that room? It was crazy.

• 1:21:12Rich Roll?

  So they must have, like, do this for corporations and they bring in like, a lot of people at one time.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Must be, must be, because there was a lot of caskets in there. And then, yeah, we, we laid in these caskets for like, 12 minutes. By the way, I hotboxed myself when I laid in mine. The door closed and I farted.

• 1:21:32Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? Nice.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  I'm not kidding. And I wanted to, I wanted to talk about it in the show, but people felt it was tasteless. I don't know why, but yeah.

• 1:21:40Rich Roll?

  It still came through with the comic relief.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. But it was actually, it was, it was wild, man. I mean, it's actually why I already do it in my life, because it really, when you, when you really visualize being at your own funeral, what the people, like, who's there? Why you care that they're there? What they're saying about you? It, it's, it's quite centering. It helps you cut out a lot of the crap that we spend our time thinking matters. And Matt's, of course, so it was so emotional.

• 1:22:12Rich Roll?

  How long did you lay in the coffin?

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  It must, it must have been like 10 or 15 minutes.

• 1:22:16Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And then you come out and then you have to read your eulogy aloud?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Rich Roll?

  Or this letter?

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Matt's was, how beautiful was Matt's?

• 1:22:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I was thinking, you know, he's had this near-death experience already. Maybe he's, you know, kind of like, he's used to the, he's like, connected to those emotions more than most people, but still, you know?

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Rich Roll?

  It was like, heavy.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  You know, so, and that, just by coincidence, that trip happened a year to the day of that moment in his life.

• 1:22:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. It had only been a year?

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  It had only been a year, and he had spent, you know, 12 months processing that moment, not just dealing with it, but processing it. So, yeah, you're right, it was top of mind. But it was also, was a year of that, so it was, I, I think he was like, at the peak, like, mo, like, moment of it psychologically and emotionally.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  And you know, to revisit it that way, it was, it was really powerful, man. And it actually is very, it was also very us, because, because he and I have, I think, a very beautiful friendship. He, he's, you know, he's like a brother. I, I'm, look, I'm like this with my guy, I'm like obsessed with my friendship, like with my guy friendships, with my male friendships especially.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  And, and Matt and I have just, we've experienced so much life together in such an intense way through work, but also through fun, like he and I have done, you know, we've, we've been to Burning Man together, we've done, we've done all of all these incredible trips and we've, I mean, we've had, we used to throw these bus parties like together in LA with double decker bus, like we've had, we've gone through all these phases of life and have also been with each other through the toughest moments in life.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  So it was very us, he's the only friend that I really regularly write love letters to, and he writes them back to me.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  That's sweet. He started as an actor too, right?

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Rich Roll?

  He had a little stint as an actor, but then he like went to business school and started this amazing company.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I didn't, we weren't, when, when we became friends, he was already kind of on the way out, like from that, but yeah, that was how we became friends was actually because a mutual friend of ours who was his roommate, he wanted to buy an Audi and his friend emailed me and I guess Matt still has the email, I guess within like 45 minutes he received, he received like a five page consumer report from me, very passionately trying to dissuade him from buying an Audi A4 or any German vehicle. But then he made a web series for Funny or Die that he was a co-creator of, and they cast me as one of the leads.

• 1:25:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, I got it.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  And, and yeah, he and I were, I mean, honestly, just best friends from that moment on. Are you, do you have, are you really close to all your guy friends? Do you have a lot of guy friends?

• 1:25:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, I have some really good friends from college, not that many of them

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Where'd you go to?

• 1:25:17Rich Roll?

  are in LA though, at Stanford.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:22Rich Roll?

  But

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  He went to Stanford.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  Oh, he did?

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Rich Roll?

  I'm so much older, I wouldn't have, we wouldn't have overlapped.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  No, you wouldn't have overlapped, you said 54, you said?

• 1:25:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's 44, I think, 43.

• 1:25:47Rich Roll?

  You have a really, like, you've had a really unique path into and throughout the entertainment industry. Like, you started as-

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  You have too.

• 1:25:55Rich Roll?

  -an investment banker.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Rich Roll?

  And then, kind of like, you've always had these hustles on the side, like, you've got this bar company and you started this magazine. Like, you fell into acting almost accidentally, it feels like.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what?

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Like, okay, so the investment banking thing happened because I just hadn't spent a minute thinking about my life.

• 1:26:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Okay, so I went to college, I went to Chapel Hill, only because all my friends from high school were going there. And I pretty much drank and played basketball, like, that's all I did. And I was smart enough to, like, get Bs on tests, you know? And I was a big cheater, high school and college, huge cheater. In fact, I was like my fair, I was like, kind of like a Ferris Bueller type in high school. And, you know, talk about, like, that was my hero thing. Like, I was providing exams and stuff to people and I always had copies of everything and scams.

• 1:26:49Rich Roll?

  Were you also like the class clown guy? Like, were you the comedian back then?

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say I was, we'd have to ask one of my friends. I mean, I'm still, my high school guys and I, we're all still best friends.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know that I would say that I was like a class clown. I was definitely funny, I think, and, you know, I was vocal, I was very social, you know, like, I was like my class president every year.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  I was very concerned with getting people to like me, for sure. And, you know, and I would credit, you know, realizing that to becoming the person I am today, which is like, I completely changed my values when I realized that that was kind of vapid and, like, that I wasn't focusing on the people I loved the most. And now I've gone, you know, kind of extremely in the other direction.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  But yeah, I don't think I was so... Were you?

• 1:27:43Rich Roll?

  No, definitely not.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  What were you like in high school?

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  Quiet, insecure.

• 1:27:50Rich Roll?

  To myself.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  And what do you think, what complexes, uh, one of the best conversations I've ever had in therapy was that you, the kind of, all your kind of complexes in adulthood and your main aspirations in adulthood, like more often than not, barring trauma, stem from your teen years.

• 1:28:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  So what, what would you say would be the things from your high school years that you're compensating for today?

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  Wanting to be accepted, people, like people pleasing is a big thing, you know, wanting to be, like, I was always on the margins or on the outside and the cool kids always seemed inaccessible. And so this podcast is a giant compensation mechanism to show that I can sit across from, like, cool people and be like part of the club.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  That's probably, there's probably a lot of truth to that. Pretty nerdy, yeah.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 1:28:48Rich Roll?

  Pretty nerdy.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Were you, were you studious?

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  Studious in high school, for sure. And I was an athlete.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  Obviously you went to Stanford, what am I saying? What, what sports did you play?

• 1:28:57Rich Roll?

  Swimming.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  Cross country?

• 1:28:58Rich Roll?

  No, swimming, yeah. And, and swimming was like the first drug of choice and that had nothing to do with school, that was outside of school.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:29:04Rich Roll?

  Um, and that was like my place to hide and escape, but also served me well, right? So it was all about, it was all about that for me in high school. And then I went to Stanford and the swimmers were the cool kids at Stanford. So that was like a whole different thing.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  God, talk about a kingdom of nerd-dom when the swimmers were the cool people.

• 1:29:20Rich Roll?

  I know, right? Like, how bad does it have to be that the swimmers are cool?

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  It's us and the ultimate frisbee guys at the top.

• 1:29:28Rich Roll?

  And then, and then I-

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Is that when you started drinking heavily?

• 1:29:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and then drinking entered the picture and then it was like game on and then it was, you know, insanity for the next 10 to 15 years and I got sober at 31.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  That makes sense, because I would say-

• 1:29:40Rich Roll?

  I lived in New York City and, you know, I lived in New York City and had like an amazing time there and went crazy.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  What'd you do in New York?

• 1:29:46Rich Roll?

  Worked in a law firm and then I was like a P A'd, I was like a P A on movie sets for a little bit.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  What kind of law, were you doing M and A stuff?

• 1:29:54Rich Roll?

  No, I was like a paralegal and then I went to law school after that in New York, in upstate New York.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  And then what did you practice when you were a lawyer?

• 1:30:02Rich Roll?

  And then I was a labor and employment lawyer for a couple of years in San Francisco and then I moved down to LA to be an entertainment lawyer. I worked at a big firm in Century City and then kind of did entertainment law on my own. Entertainment transactional work, so I was like working with a lot of like Sundance filmmaker types. Starving because none of them have any money and couldn't pay their bills.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  Right. So it's so funny though, because you know, the story you just told, it's like all of it makes sense, like alcoholism, you know, much like, you know, an obsession with work, you know, they're all attempts at power. Like, and I could see in your narrative, it sounded like, okay, here's a guy who's trying to get, who didn't feel like he had power and is seeking it externally. In your narrative that you just told, I don't know that it's true.

• 1:30:48Rich Roll?

  Didn't feel, didn't feel accepted, had difficulty making friends.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:53Rich Roll?

  Was trying to figure out where I fit in.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so all of a sudden you're chasing, you're chasing status.

• 1:30:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  And that's what I've been chasing, I think, in a great, you know, not consciously, but subconsciously, I think that is what I was chasing for a very long time. And I only recently have started to figure out ways to deprogram that for myself. It's actually, we're, we're gonna leave, we're gonna move out of LA.

• 1:31:19Rich Roll?

  Oh, you are?

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Rich Roll?

  You're gonna move back to North Carolina?

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  I think it's pretty likely. We're, so we rented a place in Nashville for six weeks, starting in December. So we're gonna take a road trip east. And then after Nashville, we found this neighborhood, like in this area of Franklin, it's where kind of everyone's moving, I think. It's a Williamson County, it's incredible schools, but I also am just obsessed with living in like these utopic communities where everyone's on bikes and there's lots of, like, there's tennis and golf and.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  You know, just, just fun, family stuff happening. So we found like a community like that, that we rented a house in Versailles. And then I think we're going to do the same thing in Chapel Hill, Raleigh, maybe Charleston. And, you know, we're basically shopping for a future home. And I think we'll probably move, I feel like we'll probably end up in Nashville is my guess. But also, I mean, this is not unrelated to what we did in the show. I mean, we're seeking simplicity. We're trying to bring our overhead down. I'm trying to get away from the achievement culture, especially for my daughter. I don't want to raise her around so much achievement, which LA is so intense on. And, but truthfully, social media is the worst, unfortunately, the worst of it is on social media.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  And also because both sets of grandparents live closer to there. So it's actually a full culmination of the first season of my show.

• 1:32:46Rich Roll?

  And you can continue to do what you do. It doesn't, you don't have to be here anymore and you're established enough, so.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  I also am one of those guys that I don't need to do, like, like if my entertainment career ended tomorrow, I'd be fine. I've never.

• 1:32:58Rich Roll?

  Well, that's, that's a maturity. That's progress. Right?

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  Well, I've never.

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  Like not defining yourself by.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Well, that I've always had.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  Where you fall in the pecking order of the entertainment business.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Well, that I've always had in terms of like, I've always felt like a Swiss army knife in terms of creativity and achievement. In fact, I would say if there is a fault that I have, it's, it's maybe an obsession with projecting the image that I can do anything at the last minute. Or I can do anything, period.

• 1:33:29Rich Roll?

  Right, but that's a, that's a, that's an ego thing.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe, yeah.

• 1:33:34Rich Roll?

  There's an, there's like, you, you see that a lot in, in, in addiction and recovery. Like this idea, like, I can do it all. Like I can, I can still party and still show up and like excel in all these other areas. And you have to really like dismantle the ego around, around your attachment to that notion.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, no, totally. That, that, that's all definitely, definitely there for me.

• 1:33:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's interesting. Well, you know, being close to your, your parents, obviously that's an important thing to you. I mean, we didn't even talk about like your parents that much, but like they're so. They're so endearing on screen. And I know you've talked about this a lot, but they're like superstars. Like you were smart to make the first episode of the show. Like, let's go back to the parents and make it about them because they're just, you just, you just want to know them more and see more of them. And your dad is one of the most expressive faces I've ever seen. It's incredible.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, I did Adam Carolla's show when I was doing Price for Meet the Mattels. And he said the funniest thing about my dad. He goes, he said, exactly what you said. He goes, you know, like, if I were to do a cartoon of your dad, I would just like use his face.

• 1:34:46Rich Roll?

  He's already there. Nothing needs to be, you know, exaggerated.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. What, are you close to your parents?

• 1:34:54Rich Roll?

  Not in the way that you are. Like, I love my parents. I'm really close with my dad right now. But they live in Washington DC, which is where I grew up, and I don't see them that much. And this was another thing that you talked with Pete Holmes about, like, he was, he was projecting onto you like his frustration with his lack of closeness with his nuclear family. And I, I experienced a little bit of that myself, like, almost jealousy, like, oh, you're so, there's so much functionality here. And I'm sure you have, you have your issues that you explore in the documentary, but there's like, there's, there's, there's such a strong bond and respect and love. And like, when you're with your parents, as much as you're struggling with

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  the ideas that they're presenting you with, you're there for it. Like, you're, you're, you're with them and you're patient and you're listening. And, you know, that, that, that love is real. Yeah. And it's, it's uncommon, I think.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah. And, and, and whether it's Meet the Mattels, or the first episode of this show, or I've, I've put them in a few things, actually. And it, being able to see your parents as characters in a story actually gives you a very Like a beautiful detachment from the usual dynamic and lens through which you view them. And I would, I hope that you or anyone who's listening to this would get a chance for anyone that you love or anyone that you want to be closer to, that you have some way to see that person in the full 360 way that I was able to see my parents by, by having them be stories and characters in a story.

• 1:36:30Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't know that I would ever have known really that my parents are so special. Or I don't know that I would have ever been able to know that, um, I don't know that I would have ever been able to see them a, a, as, as kind of complete humans in the way that I do now, had it not been for the kind of unique journey that we've been on together through storytelling.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But you, but I, I would.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  And also so many people come up to me and say what you said, how often do you get that opportunity?

• 1:37:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I would disagree to the extent that clearly you identified that in them before you even did the documentary.

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:37:10Rich Roll?

  Like that, really?

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:37:11Rich Roll?

  So that, that kind of blossomed through that process. I mean, for a lot of people, it's when they have kids.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  My sister and I did not think about that document, like, we didn't think about it really at all. I mean, I think it's reflected in the filmmaking. I, I, I think I.

• 1:37:23Rich Roll?

  Well, there's an expectation or the easier way would have been like in the documentary, like to, to, to handle their perspective from a place of judgment as opposed to openness.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I would, I would argue that that, that is more of a character trait that she and I have. It's very much a result of our parents and who, and who they've turned, you know, we knew when we were making that movie, that anyone who's, who's kind enough to let us tell their story through us, that we were going to show them in the most beautiful light possible.

• 1:38:00Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  And we weren't going to be slightly exploitive. We were going to be honest, but we're going to be, tell the story in a way, you know, like the most, the most beautiful feeling in life, and I've experienced this in marriage, is when someone you love sees you in the way that you've always wanted to be seen. And I remember feeling that for my wife where she gave me some compliment of myself and I, and only after I received it, did I realize, oh, I've always wanted that compliment. And.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  I think we wanted to compliment everyone in the movie in the way that they wanted to be complimented. So that was more of a, a choice in life and story that we made.

• 1:38:45Rich Roll?

  But there has to be-

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  It has very little to do with my parents.

• 1:38:47Rich Roll?

  There's, but in order to do that, there also has to be a willingness to show the full spectrum. Like when your, when your mom, you know, finds out about Audrey, like she has a really hard time with it. And I wouldn't have been surprised if she had said, I don't want to be in the documentary. Like, I don't want, I don't want people to see me in this way.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Well, there's more to that. So, so first of all, the, that, the whole reason animation exists in the movie is because we were trying to figure out a way to tell these big moments in the story that we, well, I mean, sometimes we didn't, we weren't able to capture it, but more often than like telling my, my parents about Audrey is animated. And that's because we ethically were not willing to put a camera in my parents' face in this big moment.

• 1:39:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  So how do we make these moments?

• 1:39:31Rich Roll?

  It would have felt exploitive anyway.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Would have felt, it would have felt exploitive. Um, so animation came out of like, how, how can we make these fuller instead of feeling surrogate? The reason why my parents were okay with the movie was because they didn't think it was a real thing. I mean, nobody thought it was a real thing. They didn't know what like, like they, like nobody knew. Like, there's like these two idiot kids who like, we really wish were doctors, are bumbling around with this camera clearly don't know what they're doing. And they're making this thing. And then there's like, there's various cuts and everyone in our life, including our parents, when you make a movie for that long, they're thinking, this isn't a real thing. It's like that friend who's always saying he's working on his script.

• 1:40:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  It's like that, that's when my parents, when we finally showed them the movie, which wasn't until the very end, they didn't see it. Okay. Nor did we ever have a confidence to show it to anyone, really. Till that final moment, I still remember my sister and I, on the other hand, we had the kitchen door closed in that same place that Meet the Beatles is filmed in. And then we're listening to them with their ears against the door.

• 1:40:34Rich Roll?

  So you left the room so they could have that experience without you being-

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you hear them laughing and they're making these comments. You can hear it. And it was-

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Such, I mean, I can't describe the feeling and it wasn't joy for me, at least it was relief. Cause, man, and I don't even know that the relief was about wanting to make my parents happy and not disappoint them. I think the relief was, I just spent so fucking long making this movie, I hope it's okay.

• 1:41:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, if they had said, look, we're not comfortable with.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, then I'm like, oh God, I can't do this anymore. I gotta get out of this apartment.

• 1:41:13Rich Roll?

  Given, given, you know, the severity of their reaction to you possibly, you know, being involved with a red haired American girl. What was their response when you walked away from investment banking and said, I'm going to be an actor? As, you know, traditional Indian.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  We were at a, we were at a, it was around the holidays and we were at a Waffle House in South Carolina on a family trips to somewhere when I told them that I'd been laid off. And all I told them was, hey, I've been laid off.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  The Bears have made the playoffs for the first time in 10 years, so I'm going to go to that game in Chicago. And I don't know what I'm doing after that, but I think I'll probably head to Utah for the Winter Olympics and work at a ski resort. That was kind of, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do from there. So that was scary in the way I think it would be for any parents. You thought your kid was okay and now you realize he's not at all.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  And so, you know, the acting thing, I fell into it. Like I, I don't know conscious. I think subconsciously I maybe always wanted to do this kind of stuff.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  But yeah, I ended up in LA because my sister was here. She had left her job in finance to pursue writing. And I was staying with her and I was bartending. I was teaching SAT classes.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  And, you know, I got asked to do something and all of a sudden I had a career like a couple of months later. It was crazy.

• 1:42:43Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  How did, what do you mean? You just had a career all of a sudden? What does that mean?

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Like, I never actually remember what order of events things here happened in, but like.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  My friend had a, my sister had a friend who was a casting director, who asked me to audition for a commercial that I didn't get, but her, the woman who owned the casting agency, was like, hey, you're really good. You, like, let me help you get an agent.

• 1:43:07Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  That happened. And then also something that happened was my sister was producing the South Asian Arts Festival. And the emcee for it, this guy, Asif Mandvi, this guy who used to be on the Daily Show, he, he had to leave at the last second to go like shoot a movie or something. And they needed like an emcee, it was like a three or four hour show with like, you know, musicians, comedians, whatever else performing. And so they asked me to fill in kind of as a last minute. I just realized I have nail polish on, by the way.

• 1:43:35Rich Roll?

  I noticed that.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, my daughter, my daughter had made me put nail, by the way.

• 1:43:39Rich Roll?

  I was looking at that and I was like, either he's got nail polish on or he's got something, there's something wrong with him.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  They're gray for anyone who's, yeah. I just realized, by the way, I've had this nail polish, I'm probably, it's probably been two weeks. And I've done so many talk shows, I'm doing all this stuff for the election. And I never remember, like, I'm gonna forget about this again.

• 1:43:59Rich Roll?

  It's alright, man, I like it.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  The entire world, I just kinda seemed kinda hip though, right? Would that be the, can you guys, did you just assume I was hip?

• 1:44:06Rich Roll?

  I don't know how that's gonna go over in Nashville, though.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  They're gonna think I'm cool too. There's musicians there. They're gonna think I'm, yeah, they're gonna think I'm, they're definitely gonna know that I'm not Republican. That's gonna be a problem for them. What was I just telling you about?

• 1:44:19Rich Roll?

  Being an emcee.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, so I filled in and I ended up doing like, probably 30 minutes of improvised standup through the course of this evening. And killed. I mean, to this day, it's probably one of the best performances I've ever had. And, and I got like a bunch of calls. And I was, I was like, dude, I was a full-time actor like not long after that. I didn't even have to headshot, I didn't have a headshot for my first year. I was so arrogant about it, cause I was like, I would never wanna do. Again, I now question psychologically if this was, if I was just, if I was trying to present myself as someone who didn't want this thing. But, um.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I booked like 20 things in my first year. It was crazy.

• 1:45:04Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Without a headshot.

• 1:45:05Rich Roll?

  That never happens.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Oh, and my friends were like, all hated me. Like, they were like, I remember one day when I was working at the bar, my friend was like having like a meltdown because she was frustrated about life and career. And she storms and she's like crying and she like, you know, leaves out of the front door. And then she opens it back up and she points behind her and she goes, meanwhile, this motherfucker, my face was on a billboard

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  across the street. Because I was like, I had, one of the early things I had booked was, um, I was just a print job to be, there's this new show that Ryan Seacrest had out called On Air with Ryan Seacrest. And I don't know if you remember, they advertised it everywhere, on every bus, on every billboard. And I was like, just one of the guys going like.

• 1:45:51Rich Roll?

  That's crazy. And so, over the years, I mean, you've done, I think I read you did like seven, you've done like 70 commercials. You're on, you're.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  Oh dude, it's probably like every TV show. What's that?

• 1:46:02Rich Roll?

  You've been on like every TV show, at least once.

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  Every bad TV show. I've not.

• 1:46:06Rich Roll?

  Done a million pilots.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  I've done so many pilots. I've done so many commercials. I mean, I don't do commercials anymore, you know. I would, if someone wants to give me a lot of money, I will do it.

• 1:46:16Rich Roll?

  And you're in the Wonder Woman movie, right?

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  I'm in the new Wonder Woman. Yeah. I think it's come out in December. I mean, who knows if that actually happens? Yeah, I mean, I only recently have really gotten to the point where, you know, I feel like maybe I'm somebody, but like, I still, I was talking to my manager this morning. I'm like, you know, it'd be great if I could just get offered really cool things. Because even the stuff I do get offered now is not stuff I actually like, should do for my career.

• 1:46:43Rich Roll?

  But the gratification level has to be.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  And I'm not, I still need money. Like, I need money. So it's a weird, I hate this career.

• 1:46:50Rich Roll?

  But it's gotta be, I mean, there's a difference between being an actor in somebody else's movie or TV show or doing a commercial and then having your own show where you're following your curiosity in storytelling in that way. Like, they're almost not even the same thing at all.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  They're not the same thing. I think acting as a career is just fucking stupid. And I think it's terribly toxic. And, you know, the only reason to do it is if you know what to expect from it. And I have worked, and in order to know what to expect from it, you have to not be dependent on it. Because everything about the pursuit of acting teaches you to be insecure and desperate. And just in terms of the pursuit, the business of it. And I have never been all in on acting because I've always seen that and known that. And so whether it's the documentary, or my entrepreneurial pursuits, or even the stuff, all the stuff that I'm doing, you know, as a producer, as a director, as a host, all

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  of that has been a very deliberate attempt to have a healthy relationship with acting and to not need it at all. And I'm finally very close to that point. Because then, when you don't need it, and you're able to be picky about it, then it's awesome.

• 1:48:07Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Right. You could be like Bill Murray, who has that voicemail setup. Do you know about this?

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:13Rich Roll?

  There's just a phone that you call and you leave a message. No one really knows where he lives, right?

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think he's got, at least he's got a house in Charleston, I was right.

• 1:48:24Rich Roll?

  Right. But difficult to reach, you know, the mystique.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which I wouldn't mind. I mean, I really would love to not have a cellphone. I think that would be great.

• 1:48:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You turn your social media back off.

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  I think I would. I think that's happening at some point. I think, yeah. I mean, I'm not kidding, I might buy followers or something, because I don't know.

• 1:48:43Rich Roll?

  Don't do that.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Well, who cares? It's all stupid. It's all, who cares? Why does it matter? It really doesn't matter. Tell me why it matters. I can tell you right now, it's more hurting me than helping me, career-wise. I don't really care.

• 1:48:59Rich Roll?

  To have it.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  The whole thing's a game.

• 1:49:01Rich Roll?

  What you're saying is, to have it, and then have, but have a low follower count is more hurtful than not having it at all.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, 100%, 100%. And also, like, who gives... Was the social dilemma at all about anything that was great?

• 1:49:18Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  Like, tell me what's... Tell me, like, I would say social media is more akin to acting, like, the toxicities are so overwhelming.

• 1:49:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, everybody's auditioning all the time now for life.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  It's mostly negative, and anyone who's telling you about the beauties of it are being myopic for the preservation of their own lifestyle. Like, that's... When I hear people talk about how great acting is, I'm like, alright, well, you're just saying that to yourself because you don't want to admit that you're insecure and vain, like that, or whatever, you know, like, whatever. Like, because I'm not saying those things don't exist. The beauty of the connective tissue and introspection of acting, those things do exist. It's super fucking fun when it's good, and there are incredibly, deeply artistic moments in acting, for sure. But the negatives are overwhelming for most people most of the time, and I think the same is true for social media.

• 1:50:14Rich Roll?

  But the solution isn't to buy a bunch of followers.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  I just, I don't know. I just, I just, what am I gonna do? Build my... I'm not gonna build my following. I'm not even posting. I'm not on there. By the way, I want to ask you, because when I was listening to the social media episode, you're clearly on social media a lot just by your ability to reference other people's social profiles. Do you have a mindfulness about how you use social media? Are you passively on social media? Or do you set aside time every day to look at it and you know what you want to get out of it?

• 1:50:41Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's, it's an ongoing battle because...

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  You're in a battle with it.

• 1:50:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, oh, for sure, because on the one hand, I can easily justify the time invested in it because I've built a whole career based on that. Not entirely, but it's a big aspect of trying to amplify what I do. And so, there's a... There's a kind of a professional, you know, need for me to service these accounts. But there's also a highly toxic aspect of it, which is they are addictive and I find myself, you know, not mindfully using them, which is not good, right?

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Same. I don't know anyone who's on social media mindfully. All of us are just picking up the phone in between things around the way, yeah.

• 1:51:24Rich Roll?

  And it's not all, it's, it's, but it's not a binary thing because I, I've made a lot of relationships and friendships from the platforms and I do communicate with my friends there and I'm able to reach out to people and stay committed, stay connected to people and kind of see what they're doing. But

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  That's what I love about it. I mean, I think I'm probably here because

• 1:51:43Rich Roll?

  Trying to do that, being, being somebody who is addictive by nature, it's, you know, it's a powder keg.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think you have to be addictive to be completely fucked by social media. I think all of us are so addicted to it.

• 1:51:56Rich Roll?

  There's use and misuse, right? And, and I do have to like, try to create boundaries around it. And, and lately, like, I just use it to, like, when I have a new podcast episode, I'll go on there and share about that. But I'm not, I'm not on Twitter commenting on, you know, what's happening in the world every five minutes, like a lot of people. Like, I'm definitely not that guy.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  That's good for you.

• 1:52:15Rich Roll?

  And I just, you know, I use it to kind of amplify what I'm doing. And also, it's gratifying to help amplify things that other people are doing that I think are, are deserving of a broader spotlight than that maybe they're having. And that's one of the cool things about how, you know, I don't have the biggest platform, but I've got some people that follow me. And when I can like, oh, hey, check out this, this is really cool. How can I use it as a force for good and positivity?

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  Same.

• 1:52:39Rich Roll?

  But then I'll find myself scrolling, you know, mindlessly thinking, what am I doing? This is like, certainly not healthy. And while we're all stuck at home in the middle of all of this, it just, it just amplifies like the, like, the negative aspects of, of, you know, screen time.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  It's so tricky. Well, look, one of the things that I want to do as part of this whole brain cleanse, or whatever I'm calling it, is a technology cleanse. And, you know, I read this book called How to Break Up With Your Phone, which really establishes a lot of the things that the social dilemma did. It actually, it was really compelling because it basically said that It basically made the point through the book that our relationship with technology is going to be in retrospect similar to the way we look like what cigarettes were to the seventies. Like, we're going to look back and be shocked that we were so permissive with its use, you know. Anyway.

• 1:53:36Rich Roll?

  And our time.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  We should go on a technology cleanse together?

• 1:53:39Rich Roll?

  I'm open to that.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Do you want to do it together?

• 1:53:41Rich Roll?

  Time is our, is a, is a, is our only, you know, is a non-renewable resource, right? And we're so liberal with wasting it. And that's insane when you think about it. Another guy you should check out is Cal Newport. You've heard of him? He wrote a book called Digital Minimalism. He's been on the podcast before as well. He's written extensively on this subject and has really solid thinking around it.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Let's follow Cal's advice. You and I go on a, on a digital cleanse together. Okay? Now, now I imagine both of us will have the goal of it not negatively impacting our productivity, which I think is what will make it interesting. But I would do that with you. Now, I got to tell you right now, here's what's going to happen. We're going to end up being buddies. So I hope you're buckled up for that because

• 1:54:27Rich Roll?

  I'm up for that.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  I am a lover and we will, this will inevitably bring us closer together. And, you know, it's going to be a ride.

• 1:54:38Rich Roll?

  Just don't take me to South Korea and put me in a casket.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Buddy, this could be an episode. We could, we could end up being an episode together.

• 1:54:46Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  I like this technology. What do you think of this technology cleanse idea? Are we gonna, now let's talk, are we gonna, are we gonna monetize this journey?

• 1:54:55Rich Roll?

  Good question.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  Maybe that's a crass way to say it.

• 1:54:59Rich Roll?

  That, that feels like, like a, an ethical lapse. Like, I feel like it should be, it should be pure if you do it. You know what I mean? How can we make money off of getting off of technology?

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  Dude, I have a council of Indians in my head at all times that are like getting in the way of the ethical.

• 1:55:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  You know, you know what we should, what I do want to, what I do want to do for sure. I was saying monetize for comical

• 1:55:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  purposes. But I do think we should do something with it only because I know for me personally, it'll motivate me

• 1:55:29Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  to be a

• 1:55:32Rich Roll?

  I'm open to it, man. We can talk about it. We can talk about it. I think that's a big part of the pursuit of happiness. These, these devices are actively making us unhappy. And we're powerless, you know, when it comes to putting them down.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  I heard Ashton Kutcher on Arianna Huffington's podcast. Have you ever heard that podcast? She has one that's mainly focused on sleep health, but it's all about.

• 1:55:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  And she did an interview with him and he said something really interesting. He said, you know, technology is there. Technology and innovation are there to improve our time. But instead we let it do the opposite.

• 1:56:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And what's interesting about that is that, you know, he, remember when he was the first guy to get a million followers on Twitter? And it was like this battle between him and Larry King in the early days of Twitter.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:56:19Rich Roll?

  So he was a king of social, like he was dominating social media 1.0 in the early days.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he came, he came through the other side through addiction.

• 1:56:28Rich Roll?

  And he doesn't really, you know, he doesn't pop up like he's, he doesn't need it. He's not using it. It feels like he's developed a healthy arms length distant relationship with it. And he's also somebody who, who has completely changed his relationship to the entertainment industry and has found his passion in investing and all this stuff that like, he's involved in tech as a behind the scenes angel investor.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  But all that stuff seems so overwhelming to me because I, because I thought at some point that I was, I mean, I.

• 1:56:59Rich Roll?

  Cause that's kind of your thing too.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  Doing a lot of things like I'm on three boards right now. And I, you know, I'm, I'm, I have trouble saying no to things, not because I'm nice, but that is part of the thing of like I'm culturally, I like, I'm always pleasing and trying to do nice things for people. But it mainly comes out of like, I'm super curious. I love, I love doing new things. I love people and I look at him and I see, oh, like, like when I think of that life, I go, okay, like that's the thing I'm trying to figure out a way to not do. But it's also the direction that I continue to head towards.

• 1:57:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, where do you, where, so let's say you moved to Nashville. Like, where do you see yourself in a, in a year or so from now?

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Career wise, what am I doing? I'll tell you. Okay. So, you know, I have, I'm doing so many things right now in the entertainment world that are all going great. I think I'm gonna, I'm looking towards maybe starting everything. I'm such a fucking loser. So I think I'm going to start a, a media company.

• 1:58:03Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  I'm trying to figure out, I'm literally, I'm telling you like, and I keep telling my wife, because she's like, she doesn't want me to do it. She's like, I'm sick of you working on this. And I'm like, no, but like, the whole foundation for this thing, because I've, at this point, I've done so many things so many times. I was like, I actually know what I want out of it, and what I want my relationship to be. I was like, so, I'm trying to build it in a way where it won't destroy my life, which is a lie, because you can't build anything important with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. And, but if I'm looking macro, and this is the truth, part of the reason why we're going to Tesla Drive, all these places, is because one of my great dreams in life is to build the perfect neighborhood with all my favorite people in it. So I want to get to that at some point. My friends and I have all talked about it, but I actually want to really take active steps.

• 1:58:47Rich Roll?

  Like an off-grid compound, or just have all your buddies move to one specific location?

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know yet, and we've had all those conversations, but really, what I want to know is figure out what is going to make, what is going to be the best community for me to live in, and for me to raise my kids in. And I'm also just, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, think that would be super fun to figure out. I've always wanted to own a resort. I don't know if that's tied into that. And, so I'd say, that and the media company are two kind of short-term things that I'm, you know, the media company is kind of the devil that I'm running towards right now. But it's all, it's a social enterprise media company, so it would be there specifically, you know, to help people in the world who need help.

• 1:59:31Rich Roll?

  Right. It has a light dusting of omaze on top.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  There is, there is a, there's a little bit of omaze baked into it, for sure, but it's very creative. Anyway, whatever, I don't want to talk about that, because I feel guilty about it. I feel shameful about just how excited I am about it. Anyway.

• 1:59:46Rich Roll?

  That's a whole other podcast.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you right now, of all the things I'm saying, that's the one that's probably most likely to happen. Anyway.

• 1:59:53Rich Roll?

  Right. Go right towards the shame.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am, I'm like, I'm like, still, like, what's the thing that's gonna fuck me up the most? What's the thing that I just spent two hours talking about I don't want to be?

• 2:00:03Rich Roll?

  I know I went to South Korea, did the whole death thing, but like, fuck that, I gotta get this media company up on its legs. You don't understand.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  Uh, and then, so I think like, a neighborhood, a resort, and I also have this dream of being a GM of an NFL team at some point.

• 2:00:23Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. You and Gary Vee.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  He wants to do that?

• 2:00:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he wants to own the Jets.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  I mean, let's be honest, he should.

• 2:00:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Like, he should get that job. It's not like he's gonna do worse.

• 2:00:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, I know.

• 2:00:37Speaker 01

  You realize, all those teams are used, well, you don't, you don't, you don't care. I already know you don't care.

• 2:00:41Rich Roll?

  I definitely don't care. That's a, that's a different podcast.

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  All, all these teams lose repeatedly for a reason. It's not like any other, it's not, it's not unlike any other business. Yet you have non-business people running them. And so they, you, these idiots are running billion-dollar companies, sports teams, that consistently over decades have the same results.

• 2:01:01Rich Roll?

  Right. We'll talk about that a different time. I want to talk about the neighborhood.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  Different time being never again.

• 2:01:06Rich Roll?

  I want to, I want to, we gotta wrap this up shortly, but the, uh, the neighborhood thing is a cool idea. And I think what's, what's appealing about that is, is relevant to your show and the pursuit of happiness in general. Because when you look at the happiest cultures across the world, they're all very, you know, embedded, close-knit communities, right? And when you went to, when you went to Copenhagen and you're eating lunch with that guy and you're like, why does everyone say Copenhagen is the happiest, one of the happiest places? He's like, that's some bullshit story then. But actually, my buddy Dan Buettner, who did the, who did the Blue Zones, where he studied where people lived the longest.

• 2:01:47Rich Roll?

  He also did the same for trying to determine the happiest places on earth, Copenhagen being one of them. And they did a whole, like, they had a very scientific approach to this whole thing. But one of the key factors is community. And I think in America, we really don't have that. Certainly not in Los Angeles.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  Well, there's been a lot of writing lately of the breakdown of the American community. And it's kind of a confluence of so many of the ailments of modernity. Like, the, first of all, American, like, individuality and privacy, okay? So that's number one.

• 2:02:20Rich Roll?

  The cul-de-sac culture.

• 2:02:23Speaker 01

  Is, is, well, Americans in general, just, we don't, the traditional neigh, this has been great about the pandemic, actually, is it's like, it's actually shown me what I think neighborhoods used to be like. You see people riding around in bikes and all hanging out. But yeah, we don't have any dependence on each other the way we used to. Right? So you don't need to borrow anything. You don't need help with anything. You have apps to take you to the airport, whatever else, right? We don't hang out in our front yards anymore. That used to be a big thing. So we're increasingly private and independent.

• 2:02:52Speaker 01

  And yeah, I think, I think also just the way urban culture has evolved is it's not neighborhood-y. It's, you know, economies trying to outpace each other at the same time, if that makes sense. And so I think that's why you're seeing like in places like the outskirts of, you know, there's, there's been a lot of literature, I think in the last year and a half about a mass migration from, from what they're calling A cities to B cities. So that's why people are moving to Austin.

• 2:03:21Rich Roll?

  Right, Austin.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  Nashville.

• 2:03:23Rich Roll?

  Right, exactly.

• 2:03:23Speaker 01

  Raleigh, Portland, these places that aren't the biggest cities that have cheaper real estate and also more land. And so you have these things called lifestyle communities that are building, that are, that are coming up in these places, which is like people like me who are like, I want that dream neighborhood where everyone's hanging out together and sees each other and it feels like, and then the bikes are just wherever and it's safe and people don't lock their doors. I think that's where it's all headed.

• 2:03:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Do you like your neighborhood?

• 2:03:55Rich Roll?

  I mean, I live in a beautiful place.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  Cause this part of LA is very much like that, right?

• 2:03:59Rich Roll?

  But I live, like, I live, like, kind of, it's very rural. And so the houses are very far apart and we have like a nice piece of land and it's like absolutely stunningly gorgeous. But you can't, you can't like go out the front door and ride your bike down the street to your friend's house. And I think about that with my kids. Like I miss being part of a greater whole.

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  It's an interesting trade-off though, cause my wife and I have talked about it cause um, you know, there's, it's, it's really one or the other in terms of proximity of the houses. You know, in these lifestyle communities, they're houses with front porches where you're the wall of your, of your neighbor's house.

• 2:04:40Rich Roll?

  And everyone's in everyone's business.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  Everyone's for the most part, yeah. And, and, and we also, if you've lived in LA or any city for a long time, one of the things you kind of think is like, oh, it'd be great to live somewhere with like a huge yard and something resembling a farm nearby that we don't have to necessarily run ourselves, you know, like, or, or like big gardens and all these rural elements.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  So I'm really interested to learn kind of if there is a nexus between those two different things, or if it's one or the other.

• 2:05:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's, I think there's something to that. Like, I just remember, like, I love going back to New York City because I feel like I'm in the flow of life with just people around, and it's so easy to connect with people. And, you know, life almost happens to you, where here you have to exert a tremendous amount of effort just to connect with somebody.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the opposite of New York.

• 2:05:32Rich Roll?

  And you go to Copenhagen in the summertime, and like, everyone's out and riding bikes and at cafes and, you know, issues with immigration aside and the problematic nature of that.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:45Rich Roll?

  It's very appealing and, you know, I just, I, when I'm in those kind of environments, I'm very attuned to how much I don't have that in my life.

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  Why are you in LA?

• 2:05:56Rich Roll?

  I mean, this is a good question. You know, I came, I came here for a job initially. I love the weather, I love the beach, I love the mountains, I like, I like the outdoors aspect of it. So the day-to-day lifestyle of it is, is extremely good. It's, it's, you know, it's paradise when it comes to that kind of stuff.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  It is, it is paradise.

• 2:06:14Rich Roll?

  But I'm not as interconnected with my fellow man as I have been in other places that I've lived.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  I don't know that it's possible in LA. I mean, again, I'm, I'm speaking from a place of bias, but, you know, I have friends who live in every city, obviously tons of friends who have not lived in other, who have lived in other places that have come here. And I don't know of any other city where most people you talk to will tell you that they don't want to live here, or that they want to move on. Most people I know are not super impressed with their lives in LA. And for me, like, that was, that came into play when Haley, my wife and I were talking about it, is I was like, you know, that's probably some sort of a litmus test, that everyone we know talks about being somewhere else, or aspires to some other place. And, do you know what, do we want to wait our whole life to keep saying that? Or do we just want to go and, because we can always come back here?

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Because I agree, all those things you said are huge. Like, there's not a better place, like, if you're just talking about the place, there's not a better place to live than Southern California. It's the fucking best. Weather's perfect, you can go skiing and snowboarding, you can actually, I've done it in the same day. It's, you know, surfing and skiing, I mean, you know. I don't know. It's tricky. And there's so many interesting people here doing such cool things.

• 2:07:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big part of what anchors me here now, like doing what I do. Like, I have access to unbelievable people. If I lived in another, you know, a smaller city in a different place, it would be very difficult to be able to get people to sit down across from me, unless I'm like sending people airplane tickets all the time.

• 2:07:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:49Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  No, I hear you, man. I mean, I think for us, we're really scared of, you know, losing all those things, but then we're also thinking, well, we have so many friends and work here, so we'll probably end up being here a month or two out of every year anyway. And also, like, I think we're both just excited for an adventure.

• 2:08:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  And if it ends up just being an adventure that brings us back to LA, I don't think it'll have been anything but an amazing thing, which means we chose LA after all that. It'll make us love LA even more.

• 2:08:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. All right, we gotta end this, but I want to end it with a final.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  You don't want to talk for eight more hours?

• 2:08:23Rich Roll?

  We could. Dude, I, I, we can, we can, to be continued, we can do this again.

• 2:08:28Speaker 01

  I could talk to you forever, but I'm also fatigued. Like, I feel like we just went on a run.

• 2:08:33Rich Roll?

  Do you have to do another podcast today?

• 2:08:35Speaker 01

  No, and by the way, I have been doing.

• 2:08:36Rich Roll?

  You've been on a media tear. You've been doing a lot.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  I have. You've been Googling Ravi Patel?

• 2:08:40Rich Roll?

  A little bit.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you got into that. I mean, Pete Holmes was, I mean, that was, that was a deep, that was a Patel deep cut.

• 2:08:47Rich Roll?

  I love that guy. Yeah, you're, the conversation you're gonna have with him is gonna be unlike any other conversation you're gonna have with anyone else.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  Well, this has been an incredible conversation. I really mean that.

• 2:08:57Rich Roll?

  Final thoughts?

• 2:09:00Rich Roll?

  The pursuit of happiness.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Ravi Patel's pursuit of happiness.

• 2:09:02Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you the question.

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  HBO Max.

• 2:09:05Rich Roll?

  Everybody asks you, which is like, in this pursuit of happiness and, you know, going on these adventures, like, what is the, the main lesson that you've taken away from this that has improved your life?

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  I have been asked that a lot and I could not tell you what the answer is I've given every time is, which is something you're supposed to get good at over the course of many press appearances.

• 2:09:33Rich Roll?

  I don't want the stock answer.

• 2:09:35Speaker 01

  You're not gonna, what I'm saying is there no stock answer and you're gonna get a completely new answer because I'm just thinking about it as you're saying. The first thing that came to mind when you asked that, I think the best lesson for making that show was that I just want to keep doing it. I love it. I love it.

• 2:09:54Rich Roll?

  Happiness came in the pursuit.

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  Well, that was gonna be cheesy, but that's what I was gonna say. I mean, there's such joy and I know that I'm so lucky that I get to somehow do this for work. So if I can keep finding ways to make the pursuit of my own joy and the pursuit of improving my relationships with the people I love, if somehow I can keep making that my work, then talk about the greatest privilege in life.

• 2:10:29Speaker 01

  That's probably, I mean, it's just so fun trying to figure out ways to do better and if you can laugh and smile along the way. I mean, that's, I mean, it's just the real juice in life. And the same way this conversation has been that, like, talk about, like, this is gonna fill me up for the day. So fun.

• 2:10:48Rich Roll?

  You and me both, man. To be continued. I'd love to have you back anytime. This is super fun, so thank you.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  Well, I told you, man, we're about to be best, things are about to go super deep. Rich and Ruff.

• 2:10:59Rich Roll?

  The Pursuit of Happiness on HBO Max, streaming everywhere.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:11:03Rich Roll?

  You can find.

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  At Show Me The Ruffey.

• 2:11:06Rich Roll?

  Show me, and if he suddenly has like a million followers there, then you know that he bought them out.

• 2:11:15Speaker 01

  Ad Show Me The Ravi, desperately follow, please, everyone, get on board. Keep me from going to the dark side.

• 2:11:22Rich Roll?

  Excellent. Peace.

• 2:11:24Speaker 01

  Bye. Or if you know where I can find followers to buy, please reach out to me.

• 2:11:29Rich Roll?

  Or everybody who's listening, just go follow him.

• 2:11:32Speaker 01

  One of the up.

• 2:11:33Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  This is fun, man.

• 2:11:36Rich Roll?

  Nice, man. Thank you.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  Ah, so fun.

• 2:11:39Rich Roll?

  He's packing some good energy, that Ravi, isn't he? I thought that was awesome. Super grateful for this guy. If you liked what he was about, be sure to check him out on HBO Max. Pursuit of Happiness is the name of his show again. And of course, if you haven't seen it yet, you gotta watch Meet the Patel's. It's just a delight, a great family movie as well. Give Ravi a follow on the socials, at Show Me The Ravi on Instagram and Twitter. And visit the show notes on the episode page to peruse the links and the resources on everything that we discussed today. While you're at it, pick up my new book, Voicing Change, shipping globally. I'll even sign it and available only at richroll.com/vc. And if you're looking to dial up your plate, the Plant Power Meal Planner,

• 2:12:24Rich Roll?

  that's where it's at, you guys. Thousands of customized, plant-based recipes at your fingertips with access to nutrition coaches seven days a week, all integrated with grocery delivery and available to you for just $1.90 a week. Visit meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, all the places. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the show was created by Blake Curtis. Graphics by Jessica Miranda, portraits by Ally Rogers. Sponsored relationships are managed by DK David Kahn.

• 2:13:08Rich Roll?

  And theme music, as always, by Tyler Trapper and Hari, my boys. Thanks a lot. Love you guys. Appreciate all of you. I don't take your attention for granted. And I will see you back here shortly. I don't know when, soon. I always show up just on time. Until then, be well. Live large. Get outside. Express yourself. Peace. Lance. Avasté.