America’s Oldest Ghost Tour: Harpers Ferry National Historical Park

In the 1970s Shirley Dougherty moved to Harpers Ferry West Virginia and started experiencing strange occurrences. And she wasn’t alone. Residents were quick to tell her their own encounters with the paranormal, and she eventually complied them into a book - a text that became the foundation of what she claims to be America’s’ oldest ghost tour. Today Danielle brings us on a tour of our own through one of the country’s most spooky locations. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesListen to Watch Her Cook on Apple and Spotify! Follow us on InstagramFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to the week’s partners! Ollie: Take the online quiz and introduce Ollie to your pet. Visit https://ollie.com/NPAD today for 60% off your first box of meals! #ToKnowThemIsToLoveThemQuince: Use our link to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Liquid IV: Use our code NPAD at checkout to get 20% off your first order. Blueland: Use our link to get 15% off your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:01Danielle LaRock?

  We all have our own ways of getting to know new places when we travel. Some buy guidebooks and craft perfectly planned itineraries, while others roam the streets and see what they stumble upon. When we arrive somewhere new, many of us flock to museums, bars, and hiking trails trying to get a sense of a place we're still itching to understand. We can see a new city through the lens of its food, its history, its architecture, or its nightlife. There are many sides to every place we visit, multiple worlds all contained within one. But for some, there's yet another dimension that they are eager to explore when arriving in a new place: the paranormal. In hundreds of cities across the US, you can sign up

• 1:43Danielle LaRock?

  for walking ghost tours. And these tours stop at sites that have haunted reputations while curious travelers tag along, hoping for a chance to brush arms with the city's most notorious ghosts. These ghost tours are a thrill, but they're not all fun and games. Many of the most frightening ghost stories are rooted in real events that took place on street corners, in homes, in churches, and the effects of these tragedies still reverberate around communities in very real ways hundreds of years later. There are countless of these tours across the globe, but today we are going to be telling the story of what many consider to be the oldest ghost tour in the United States and the history that preceded it. Every year, tourists travel to West Virginia to see a side of a town called Harpers Ferry.

• 2:29Danielle LaRock?

  That you can only experience up close and in the dark.

• 2:35Danielle LaRock?

  Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 2:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, if I've ever heard an episode that you have curtailed to your interests, this would be it.

• 3:05Danielle LaRock?

  This is it, baby. I'm so excited.

• 3:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Your bread and butter right here.

• 3:10Danielle LaRock?

  Um, hi, everyone. My name is Danielle.

• 3:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I'm Cassie.

• 3:15Danielle LaRock?

  And this is National Park After Dark. And today we are going on a little ghost tour of Harper's Ferry National Historical Park. And uh, it's called West Virginia's Most Haunted City. I've never been to West Virginia, so maybe we can um, we can decide that after the episode. But yeah, I love ghost tour. If there's something about me, it's I love the Titanic and I love a ghost tour. And if I could do a ghost tour of the Titanic, I would.

• 3:47Danielle LaRock?

  But.

• 3:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Little hard. Maybe one day. They're working on it.

• 3:50Danielle LaRock?

  They are working on it. Oh, the Titan thing is coming out soon. Did you see that?

• 3:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yeah, the documentary that talks about. Yeah, that's really sad.

• 3:57Danielle LaRock?

  It is sad.

• 3:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Definitely gonna watch it.

• 3:59Danielle LaRock?

  You are gonna watch it?

• 4:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And then I'm also, I'm so, uh, I guess the word is honored that the new Titanic documentary that just came out with like Nat Geo on Disney Plus. So many people, my inbox has been flooded with people tagging me in it and being like.

• 4:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Including me. I sent it to you.

• 4:19Danielle LaRock?

  You sent it to me. I was so excited. I'm like, thank you so much for thinking of me when you see the Titanic.

• 4:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Danielle LaRock?

  But yeah, so ghost tours are my thing. They're like my, I don't know how many I've been on. You've been on quite a few with me. But it's my favorite way to see a place.

• 4:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's definitely an interest. We've had some very interesting experiences together around the country on ghost tours.

• 4:44Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it's like Cassie wants to do like a spa or like a really nice stay that has like, I don't know, nice towels and linens and.

• 4:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like the bougie.

• 4:55Danielle LaRock?

  Like a nice, comfortable stay. And I'm like, okay, when can we go on the ghost tour of whatever city this is? But yeah, so we're gonna be doing Harper's Ferry today.

• 5:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, I'm excited because a lot of people have been asking us to go here and it is a hotspot for the A T. That everyone goes to. So I'm I'm stoked to learn more about it.

• 5:17Danielle LaRock?

  Cool. Well, let's do that. In the mountains of West Virginia, right where the Shenandoah River meets the Potomac River lies a small town called Harper's Ferry. If you were driving by it, not knowing much about it, you might think it was just a little picturesque village with its quaint houses tucked into the slopes of the Blue Ridge Mountains. But in reality, this unassuming town by the river was a breaking point of racial injustice in the United States, a critical location in the Civil War, and the site of a notorious attempt to end slavery. The violence endured on the streets of Harper's Ferry has stayed with the community, not just in its history, but also sneaking up in strange ways into the present. Those who live and work in Harper's Ferry will tell you that the present and the

• 6:00Danielle LaRock?

  past are not so separate here in this town, and many have had their own encounters with the paranormal realm that feels extra active here. So as with any good ghost tour, if you've never been on one, uh, do it, first of all. Don't let this be your experience.

• 6:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  What are you doing?

• 6:17Danielle LaRock?

  First of all, what are you doing? Um, but yeah, you usually, the best thing about ghost tours for me is just the blend of the paranormal and true history. And anytime you are brought on them, with the exception, I will say with the exception of a few, and one we just went on was not anything. Uh, there was nothing historical about it, actually, at all, I don't think.

• 6:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I feel like, yeah, the one that we went on recently was just this one man's experience of ghosts that he had, he had seen over years of time, and he put no context to a single one of them.

• 6:52Danielle LaRock?

  It was so crazy.

• 6:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  You're just like, okay, and what happened here? He would just be like, I saw a ghost standing here. Any questions? Okay, next.

• 7:05Danielle LaRock?

  It was like so bizarre. Like at first I didn't, I thought he was just kind of the first stop or whatever. I don't know. It was in, um, is it called Old Town San Diego? Yeah, in Old Town. I thought he was just laying the foundation of like, this was my experience of kind of like my first introduction to the paranormal. Because he did say he was a skeptic for like most of his life. He never was a true believer. So I thought like, he was just kind of being like, this was my aha moment and now I'll tell you.

• 7:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, yeah, that was kind of the vibe I got to.

• 7:37Danielle LaRock?

  But then he just like, never stopped that.

• 7:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  There was never any context. He's like, oh yeah, that's Ghost Mary or whatever. It's like, uh, who, who's Mary?

• 7:46Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Where are we even? What building is this?

• 7:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  What happened here? Why are there ghosts here?

• 7:53Danielle LaRock?

  He's like, oh no, you're feeling weird because that's Elizabeth's above you. Like, oh right, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for telling me.

• 8:01Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, well, we can probably get into that later, but um, yeah, so on a normal ghost tour, uh, which we were not on in San Diego, usually they'll bring you building to building or location to location, tell you a bit about its history and then lead into the paranormal from there. So that's kind of what I want to do with Harper's Ferry and just give a good, solid background on some of the key points in history that unfolded here and then we'll go into the paranormal later.

• 8:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cool.

• 8:31Danielle LaRock?

  So back in the 1800s, Harper's Ferry was a critical point of commerce, transportation, and manufacturing power in the reas- in the region for a few different reasons, but primarily due to its location at the confluence of the two rivers, the Potomac and the Shenandoah, as well as its position along the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad. George Washington saw the town's unique leverage and potential and decided to establish an armory there, the second federal armory in the country. And between the years 1800 and 1861, the armory here at Harper's Ferry produced over 600,000 weapons for the US military. So it was a huge hub. In those years, slavery was still legal in the United States, but opposition was mounting.

• 9:13Danielle LaRock?

  Harper's Ferry was a part of the Underground Railroad, a string of safe houses and locations to help enslaved people escape up to the northern United States and into Canada. And we've done quite a few episodes that have covered at least bits and pieces about the Underground Railroad and just different stories that have unfolded with people's journeys. And when I was researching this and I don't know if I brought this up on the podcast, but do you ever remember hearing about the flats being part of the Underground Railroad?

• 9:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  The flat, what flats?

• 9:46Danielle LaRock?

  The flat, like Tortilla Flats in Merrimack where we used to go for drinks after work.

• 9:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, no.

• 9:53Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, that's like part of Merrimack, New Hampshire lore, which I don't know if it's true or not.

• 9:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  You've just heard that?

• 10:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, like growing up, that was always the story because that building is super old. That that building's from, I think, the late 1700s, early 1800s.

• 10:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Danielle LaRock?

  And obviously now it's a Mexican restaurant that serves really, really strong margaritas.

• 10:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  So strong of margaritas.

• 10:17Danielle LaRock?

  I'm two and I'm on the floor.

• 10:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  One.

• 10:20Danielle LaRock?

  But yeah, there was a rumor and if somebody in the Merrimack Historic Society wants to tell me, that would be great. But yeah, that was always kind of like the talk around town that it was a stop on the Underground Railroad and also that one of the owners ended his life there in one of the dining rooms via hanging. And a lot of people always requested the table under like that rafter, that specific rafter.

• 10:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, I didn't know any of this history. I mean, I haven't been there in years now, but when we worked together, we used to go fairly often and I didn't know.

• 10:54Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And then also right down the road, which you can see from the highway, but Matthew Thornton's house is now, he was one of the original signers of the Declaration of Independence. His house is now the Common Man Restaurant and he's buried right across the street.

• 11:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Very interesting.

• 11:09Danielle LaRock?

  And that building is also spooky-y. But anyway, enough about Merrimack, New Hampshire. We're not talking about.

• 11:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  We're in West Virginia.

• 11:17Danielle LaRock?

  We're in West Virginia.

• 11:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  West Virginia.

• 11:20Danielle LaRock?

  Mountain mama.

• 11:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Take me home.

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• 11:59Danielle LaRock?

  So, being part of the resistance to slavery, of course, was not without risk. And Joseph Blonham, a free black man who worked as a boatsman in Harpers Ferry, was imprisoned for helping enslaved people flee and seek safety within Harpers Ferry. Many people in the state of West Virginia were enslavers, but there were others working to change that. And one of those people was John Brown, a white abolitionist who spent most of his life trying to put an end to slavery. He spent years trying to abolish slavery through peaceful means, but eventually he drew the conclusion that violence was necessary to truly disrupt and dismantle the deeply rooted system of racial oppression.

• 12:41Danielle LaRock?

  So there's a long history about John Brown and all of his efforts, but we're kind of like hitting fast forward. And up to this point where he kind of breaks and it's like, well, peace isn't going to get us anywhere, so I'm gonna concoct a plan. And his plan is he essentially wanted to extend the Underground Railroad into what he called the subterranean passway, which would go south through the Appalachian Mountains to free enslaved people in the southern states. Armed abolitionists would raid plantations, free the enslaved working there, and help them escape into the mountains to safety. The rugged terrain of the Appalachian Mountains was a key part of Brown's plan.

• 13:22Danielle LaRock?

  While mapping out the subterranean passway, he told civil rights leader and black abolitionist Frederick Douglass that the mountains were quote, "full of good hiding places where a large number of men could be concealed and baffle and elude pursuit for a long time." Brown wanted to use this model on a major scale, hoping to free hundreds of thousands of enslaved people in the process. Some of the freed enslaved, he expected, would then be armed and join him in his fight. So in order for this plan to work, those involved needed to be adequately armed. Like that was a key part of this entire plan. Brown knew he needed weapons and a lot of them for this to be successful.

• 14:06Danielle LaRock?

  So he set his sights on the armory at Harpers Ferry. He decided to raid the armory and steal the weapons necessary to arm this crew of people.

• 14:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  This is so interesting because I've heard of this story before, but not in detail. So I'm very intrigued.

• 14:22Danielle LaRock?

  A little like spark like in the back of my mind lit up. And I was like, I feel like I learned about this in like, I don't know, 11th grade.

• 14:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  I actually, someone mentioned this story, someone recommended it. I want to say it was probably like two years ago now. And I remember looking into it on the National Park Service website, but I didn't dive that much in. I actually put it, I actually like filed it away and I was like, okay, one day I'm gonna cover this. This is so interesting. And now you're doing it, which is really exciting.

• 14:51Danielle LaRock?

  Well, I snatched it up.

• 14:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I'm glad. I love it.

• 14:54Danielle LaRock?

  On October 16th, 1859, under the cover of darkness, John Brown and 19 men crept into Harpers Ferry. They cut telegraph lines so word of their raid couldn't spread quickly. And then they took over a few key places in town, including the railroad station, the armory, and the rifle works. And to top it off, they took well-known enslavers in the community hostage to use as leverage.

• 15:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Smart.

• 15:20Danielle LaRock?

  But quickly, the plan started to fall apart. Brown had been certain that many more enslaved people would come to join the raid, but that support didn't arrive. And that was for a few different reasons, but one of them was faulty communication. A lot of the enslaved people in the surrounding areas didn't know that the raid was happening at the time. Just word didn't get out quick enough. There, it wasn't super organized. So that portion that he was really relying on.

• 15:49Danielle LaRock?

  Didn't come. A time before text messaging. Yeah. The and the telegraph lines were cut also, which Right. helped him in in one way, but also probably harmed him in another. And those cut telegraph lines could only buy Brown and his men so much time. They allowed a train to pass through the station and people on board alerted the authorities that Brown and his crew had taken over Harper's Ferry. So that was also a mistake. They're just like, I just imagine them like on a train like, what in the, as it's like chugging by. They're like, wait, hold on, what's happening over there? And they're just slowly moving through. Nothing to see. By the morning, local militia, farmers and enslavers showed up and Brown and his men found themselves surrounded.

• 16:34Danielle LaRock?

  Twice, they tried to send someone out under a white flag to call for a surrender, but those people were immediately shot. Some of Brown's men tried to flee via the rivers, but many of them were also shot and killed in their attempt to escape. President James Buchanan sent Marines in in an attempt to control the situation. And when Brown refused to surrender, they stormed the armory and arrested him and his men, killing some of them in the process. Sixteen people were killed in John Brown's raid, ten of whom were his men and one was his own son. Five managed to escape and the remaining seven, including John Brown, were sent to jail. John Brown was found guilty of murder, conspiring with enslaved people to rebel and treason

• 17:19Danielle LaRock?

  against the state of Virginia. And as a result, was sentenced to hang. Up until his very last moments, he remained steadfast in his conviction that he was willing to die for the cause of ending slavery. In a speech he gave during his trial, Brown said in part, quote, "Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel and unjust enactments, I say, let it be done." He was hanged in December of eighteen fifty-nine and his raid was a catalyst for change and

• 18:02Danielle LaRock?

  has been referred to as the dress rehearsal for the Civil War, which began less than two years later. Within a week of the Civil War beginning, Virginia seceded from the Union. Soldiers stationed at Harpers Ferry knew that hundreds of Virginia militia were headed to their small but mighty town and would want to seize the weapons in the armory. So to prevent them from being able to access those weapons, the soldiers blew up the armory and the arsenal. The resulting fire raged bright in the mountain town as nearly 15,000 weapons burned. Over the course of the war, Harpers Ferry changed hands between the Union and the Confederacy eight different times.

• 18:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, they're kind of on that line. They're right kind of between it all.

• 18:46Danielle LaRock?

  They're right there and it's such a strategic location, like people, like both sides really want control of this location. So again, lots of history, back and forth, back and forth, times eight. The Battle of Harpers Ferry in 1862 forced the largest surrender of US troops in the Civil War. And being in such a strategic location, Harpers Ferry became a common battleground and five different battles were fought there over just a handful of years. Its powerful location, which originally was thought to be the thing that would help the town prosper, ended up leading to its destruction. The war had a completely devastating effect on the town and it was never able to fully get on its feet again.

• 19:28Danielle LaRock?

  Some positive developments did come to the town after the war ended. In 1865, Storer College was established in Harpers Ferry and it was one of the first colleges in the US that was open to everyone, regardless of their race or gender, and it opened the door for many formerly enslaved people to gain an education. The college boasts quite a few notable alumni, including J.R. Clifford, who was West Virginia's first black attorney, as well as some famous jazz musicians and the first democratically elected president of Nigeria. I just thought that was a cool fun fact with the college and stuff. I've heard of Storer College also.

• 20:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  I have too.

• 20:05Danielle LaRock?

  In 1944, Harpers Ferry became a national monument and in 1963, it became a national historical park dedicating to preserving its vital history. The fight for racial justice and freedom is embedded in the town, its buildings, and its battlefields. The park spans about 3,700 acres, mostly in West Virginia, but also extends a little bit into Maryland and Virginia as well.

• 20:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  I really love that there's a national park here because I think a lot when we're taught and learn about slavery, we're always taught that enslaved people were docile and just... Kind of, I mean, there's the Underground Railroad where people are sneaking away and things, but very rarely do we learn about these uprisings that are happening. Or, you know, like, we're always told that enslaved people were compliant. And I think that that was definitely true in a lot of circumstances because of like, the abuse and threat to their lives and just the ra- the racial injustices that were happening. But to have a whole national park dedicated to a place where there was such a historic uprising,

• 21:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  despite that there was an awful ending to it, but it sparked an even bigger fight. I just think it's really interesting and it's really cool.

• 21:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it reminds me of the US Virgin Islands episode that I did. Um, I forget what episode number it was. I did it last year. It's funny when I think back on the episodes, at least when I write them and reflect back on them, I think of where I was when I was writing it. I'm like, okay, so I was in this house in Colorado when I was writing it. So that must have been a year ago. You know, like, I think of the location I was at when I was writing it. So, yeah, I think it was last summer I did that one. But, um, yeah, the US Virgin Island National Park was all about a really historic uprising that also had kind of a sad ending, but, um,

• 22:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, a brutal uprising.

• 22:02Danielle LaRock?

  Brutal, yeah, brutal.

• 22:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  It was really, I had never heard, that's another good example of a story that I was never taught and never learned about growing up.

• 22:10Danielle LaRock?

  But to your point, this, it's like, the park wasn't established because of that.

• 22:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Right. It was just all of the history after that.

• 22:18Danielle LaRock?

  Yep.

• 22:23Cassandra Yahnian?

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• 23:46Danielle LaRock?

  So going back to this park, just to give people a little sneak peek into what it actually looks like and not just its history. Most of the land is deciduous forest with hiking trails winding through groves of chestnut oak, tulip poplar, red maple, and pawpaw trees. Over 170 bird and 30 mammal species call this park home, including the bald eagle, red-tailed hawk, flying squirrel, and whitetail deer. Visitors to the park can hike up to Jefferson Rock for a picturesque view of the point where the Shenandoah and Potomac rivers meet, which is obviously, now knowing the history of why that place is so significant, it's cool. And of course, the AT also crosses through Harpers Ferry and the town is one of the most well-known

• 24:26Danielle LaRock?

  landmarks along the entire trail. The Harpers Ferry area is also the ancestral homeland of the Tuskegee and Shawnee people who called the land and the confluence of those two rivers home as early as 1200 B.C. As is the story across the country, native peoples were forced off of their ancestral homeland by white European settlers who arrived here in this particular area in about the 1500s. So going back a little bit, fast forwarding back to the aftermath of the Civil War, it had this catastrophic effect on the town, where before Harpers Ferry was this really bustling center of commerce and industry. The war just really left its mark on the town. Left it in a lot of ruin, tanked its economy and forced many of the residents to

• 25:11Danielle LaRock?

  leave and seek life and a livelihood elsewhere. But of course, this is kind of a paranormal episode. So it is said that some of those souls remained. So switching gears, that was like, that was really serious history and a history that I, it would feel weird to not address. But we're going to switch it up and maybe be a little bit more light for the rest of the episode. We'll see. Harpers Ferry is considered by many to be the most haunted town in West Virginia. Some say that the souls who died there never left and still roam the buildings and streets where they took their last breaths. A variety of locals who live and work in Harpers Ferry report seeing and hearing ghosts

• 25:53Danielle LaRock?

  quite literally everywhere around town, at home or at work. These frequent ghost sightings have earned Harpers Ferry quite the reputation and many tourists travel to the town hoping to witness their own paranormal encounter. As I mentioned earlier in the intro, Harpers Ferry is home to the oldest ghost tour in America, which means I have to go now. Yeah. Like to really call myself like a ghost tour enthusiast. I gotta do it. Yeah. For 53 years, curious travelers have gathered on the historic streets of Harpers Ferry after the sun goes down and wander together in hushed groups through the town's most haunted locations.

• 26:33Danielle LaRock?

  So here we are and we're gathering for our own little ghost tour of Harpers Ferry. So we're going to stop by some of the town's most notorious ghost hangouts, break down the paranormal encounters of each, and along the way, learn why these spirits might still be lingering here all these years later. So if this is your first paranormal historical ghost tour, welcome. Welcome. Thank you for being here. I'm not in period attire, which is, I'm sorry for that. Apologies.

• 27:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you were there physically, I believe that you would.

• 27:05Danielle LaRock?

  I would, I think. And here's my mistake. Here was my mistake in San Diego. Because, so usually for ghost tours, I don't, I usually go with the highest rated one. Whenever I go to a city, I'm just like, well, you know, the most people who have the most positive experience, I'll do that. But with this one, I kind of went against what I usually do and I did, and I booked one that wasn't the traditional, like they're not going around in costume and in period attire. I'm not doing one that's, you know, it's the top five on, um, what is it? The travel, travel advisor. Or, you know, just like, I intentionally did things differently and look where it got us.

• 27:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, don't fix something that's not broken.

• 27:50Danielle LaRock?

  I know.

• 27:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  You have a good system.

• 27:54Danielle LaRock?

  I was looking for like more of an authentic experience, maybe instead of, because sometimes, I mean, to be a ghost tour guide, you gotta love your job and be enthusiastic about your job and like it takes a certain-

• 28:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  And really believe in it.

• 28:05Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it takes a certain type of person. So I'm not saying that I think people who work at ghost tour companies that do dress like that. I just think they're following a really, uh, strict script or like a regimented and really rehearsed script. And I just wanted to try out-

• 28:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Something more loose.

• 28:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, something loosey goosey, a little different.

• 28:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  It was that.

• 28:26Danielle LaRock?

  It was way too loose. I went way on the other end.

• 28:31Danielle LaRock?

  And it's so funny because like, all I could think about was, like at this point, I'm not worried about you and what you think. I'm not even worried about Al, who is also present. I was just like, he's a good sport, you know, like-

• 28:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, he'll do it, whatever.

• 28:49Danielle LaRock?

  Like whatever is said, he might like raise his eyebrow and give us a couple weird looks, but like, I'm, he's fine.

• 28:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Danielle LaRock?

  But poor Jeff.

• 28:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Was that, that was his first ghost tour too, right?

• 29:01Danielle LaRock?

  Jeff Larson's first ghost tour was, I apologize to him. I'm like, I'm so sorry, that's not what that was supposed to be. He's like, I'm not even sure what that was supposed to be. I, I'm like, let me just tell you, you haven't been on a ghost tour, because whatever that was.

• 29:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  Was not one.

• 29:17Danielle LaRock?

  Was not one. Um, it was just so funny because what a weird experience.

• 29:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'll just always remember when we were sitting, we were sitting inside this hotel and the, the guy was like to Jeff, he's like, move your hand through the air. Do you feel that? And Jeff's just like, such a good sport. And he's like, moving his hand through the air. And he's like, do you feel that? Jeff's like, no.

• 29:41Danielle LaRock?

  He like closes eyes even, he's like, ah.

• 29:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  He was trying so hard to participate.

• 29:46Danielle LaRock?

  I know, he's like, okay, wait, but what am I supposed to feel? Like.

• 29:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, am I feeling something?

• 29:51Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, and what am I supposed to be feeling? Because the guy was just saying, do you feel that? It's like, what is that? You know what I mean?

• 29:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And then he's like, there's a little boy standing there.

• 30:01Danielle LaRock?

  I know. And then for somebody who doesn't even believe in ghosts or anything, like, he was trying. It was just.

• 30:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  He's like, oh, you have me putting my hand through a face of a child ghost. I'm just like hitting a child ghost in the face over and over again.

• 30:19Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so let's start at a church because we always find ourselves at a church on all of our travels.

• 30:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Every travel, pretty much.

• 30:29Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, we always end up at one. And at first it was like intentional, but then I think it just kind of morphed into, whether it's like a church that's renovated into something else, or we just go, because usually the architecture is really beautiful.

• 30:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I feel like we come across a lot of churches that are really, really beautiful and we end up inside of them. And then occasionally we're going to something and it's like, this is an old renovated church. And we're like, oh, we did it again. We're in a church.

• 30:56Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, I thought this was a coffee shop.

• 30:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  The universe is trying to tell us something.

• 31:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I think the coolest one, where were we? Paris. Was it Paris? There's one that was so beautiful.

• 31:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  We went to a really beautiful one in Paris.

• 31:11Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know, I'm kind of losing track, but um, anyway, okay. Saint Peter's Roman Catholic Church is in Harper's Ferry. And it looks like a pretty classic old church. It's got the granite walls, picturesque bell tower and stained glass windows. And it sits at the top of a hill, the highest point in Harper's Ferry's lower town. It was completed in eighteen thirty-three and was renovated to a neo-Gothic style in eighteen ninety-six. And today is still active and it holds mass every week. During the war, Saint Peter's Church was used as a medical station and many injured soldiers were treated there. On one occasion, a soldier came to the church but was told to wait outside because they didn't think his injuries were that serious and they had more dire cases to tend to.

• 31:55Danielle LaRock?

  So they essentially triaged him very briefly and were like, you look okay. You can just wait outside and we're gonna, we'll get to you when we can. But the soldier's condition was way worse than they thought. And he lay on the ground outside of the church, suffering for hours. When he was finally carried inside to be treated, it was too late and he died as his body entered the church. He thought he was going to make it because he also didn't realize how significant his injuries were. And as he was getting carried in through the church, his last words were, "Thank God I'm saved." Today, visitors to the church report seeing eerie traces of the soldier's spirit lingering around the church's entrance where his life ended.

• 32:39Danielle LaRock?

  Some visitors report seeing a glowing light near the church's entrance and others have heard his devastating last words, the "Thank God I'm saved," whispered on the church's front steps when they're standing outside. Give me, I like the glowing light. The glowing light is nice.

• 32:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  The glowing light is nice, but I feel like if you're hearing that when you're walking into a church, your life was just changed.

• 33:04Danielle LaRock?

  Thank God I'm saved.

• 33:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, oh, something just changed. If you weren't a believer in God, you are now.

• 33:13Danielle LaRock?

  But this soldier's spirit isn't alone here at St. Peter's. Father Michael Costello was a priest at this church for 10 years from 1857 to 1867, which was a very difficult decade that spanned John Brown's raid as well as the Civil War. Through all of this, Father Costello was known to be a fierce protector of his church community. He worked hard to make the church a safe space for everybody and personally offered spiritual guidance and medical help to anyone he could, regardless of their race or whether they were enslaved. Father Costello also met with John Brown while he was imprisoned. Visitors of the church have spotted Father Costello's ghost roaming around, going about his usual duties in the church and looking after the suffering souls

• 33:57Danielle LaRock?

  of Harper's Ferry that needed him. Those who have seen the priest's ghost say that he is wearing his robes, sometimes walking down the path next to the church and other times praying at the altar. And on some occasions, witnesses have seen him walking through the walls of the church where there used to be a door before the building was renovated. Like I said, it was renovated in the 1890s. So where that old door was, they see him kind of like walking that path over and over.

• 34:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  Interesting.

• 34:27Danielle LaRock?

  I think I'd rather see the soldier, even though that's really sad. I think there's just something about seeing, even though he sounded like a real one, like kind, generous, whatever. I don't know if it's just all the, I don't deal with like the religious horror genre well.

• 34:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Hmm.

• 34:45Danielle LaRock?

  You know, like possessions and like weird, I feel like the horror genre loves priests and nuns and

• 34:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes, for sure.

• 34:55Danielle LaRock?

  Like things like that. And I think it's really like messed with my mind a little bit. So

• 35:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  You would not be into that.

• 35:02Danielle LaRock?

  No, I would not be into that at all.

• 35:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Coming from a ghost enthusiast.

• 35:05Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Well, you have a ranking of ghosts that you would want to see. Ghost cat is the top.

• 35:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yep. Really ghost, any animal.

• 35:12Danielle LaRock?

  Ghost animal at the top.

• 35:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, at the top.

• 35:15Danielle LaRock?

  What's your lowest, do you think?

• 35:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Honestly, anything that could physically touch me. That wasn't an animal.

• 35:21Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, right.

• 35:24Danielle LaRock?

  Good save.

• 35:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't want to be touched. Yeah.

• 35:26Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 35:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you want to make muffins on my leg, that's cool, but I don't want to, I don't want to be touched by a person.

• 35:34Danielle LaRock?

  Totally fair.

• 35:43Danielle LaRock?

  Just down the road from the church is another one of the town's most notoriously haunted locations, which is the Harper House. In the 1700s, Rachel and Robert Harper started a ferry service in town that shuttled passengers across the Potomac River, which became the namesake of the town, Harper's Ferry. The ferry business was very successful and profitable, and the Harpers used the money that they made to build their dream home. It was a grand, two-story colonial-style house, complete with balconies on a hill that overlooked the town below. Imagine having a town named after you. That's kind of cool.

• 36:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  I would love that. That is cool.

• 36:17Danielle LaRock?

  Would it be your first or last name that you'd want?

• 36:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Welcome to Cassandra. Welcome to Yahnian. Probably Cassandra because no one can ever say Yahnian.

• 36:26Danielle LaRock?

  They'd be like Yanianian? Where am I?

• 36:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Where am I?

• 36:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Would you do your first or last name?

• 36:32Danielle LaRock?

  Probably my last name because I love my last name.

• 36:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Danielle LaRock?

  And people would be like, Daniel. We're in Daniel.

• 36:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Welcome to La Rock. That makes sense.

• 36:43Danielle LaRock?

  Sounds so much better.

• 36:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, whenever I give my name for something like an order or whatever, I usually say Daniella because you can't really mess that up.

• 36:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's just so funny that people can't. I think Danielle is a very easy name to understand.

• 36:58Danielle LaRock?

  You, one would think.

• 36:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  And you don't look like a Daniel, but who am I to say?

• 37:02Danielle LaRock?

  Who am I to say?

• 37:04Danielle LaRock?

  So the Harpers, they're building their house, and it was gonna take a while to build, but the couple was happy to wait for something that good. I mean, it was a prime location, they had a bunch of money, it was gonna be a grand house, and things were going well until the Revolutionary War hit, and they were forced to pay incredibly high taxes to England. The war also majorly slowed down the process of building their house, and it took years longer than they had planned, which I think anybody now could even attest to. You're trying to build anything? Add on five years to that plan.

• 37:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, good luck, no one's available, and the prices are outrageous.

• 37:38Danielle LaRock?

  In an attempt to save their money and to avoid paying taxes to England, Rachel started hiding jars of cash in the garden of that property where their home was slowly being built. But there was a catch. She was the only one who knew where the money was and didn't even tell her husband, Robert.

• 37:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh.

• 37:55Danielle LaRock?

  Sneaky. Smart.

• 37:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Sneaky, I like it.

• 37:58Danielle LaRock?

  In 1780, the couple was finally about to move into their mansion on the hill, but things took a tragic turn when Rachel, who was 60 years old at the time... Fell off of a ladder and died the next day. The secret location of the hidden money died with her. And to this day, the jars have never been found. Two years after her death, Robert died and the Harper's relatives moved into the home. So the property did stay in the family for quite some time. In recent years, some visitors to Harper's Ferry have been startled when walking past this colonial house. When they spot a woman in seventeen hundred style clothing, standing at the window, looking out over the garden. Even in death, it seems like Rachel Harper's ghost is keeping a close eye on her and her husband's hard earned riches.

• 38:43Danielle LaRock?

  And it seems like maybe she's getting to spend some time in her dream home after all. I that's. Is that a new treasure hunt? That is my dream. Oh, my God. I did I tell you I got a metal detector like two weeks ago? No. A new one. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. I don't know when I'm gonna use it because we're not gonna be here like all summer. But I had one of I had a couple a while ago and one of them got lost. And the other one is I tracked it down. It's at my parents' house, but it's really, it was like the most basic model you can get. It was really cheap and I'm like, I don't even know if this thing's gonna do anything. So I got, I didn't get like a higher model because those are gonna be cool for like a thousand dollars or more. For a metal detector?

• 39:26Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, like high end metal detectors get really pricey. So I decided to, I like, I didn't want the the bottom of the barrel, but I also was like, am I really gonna be an avid metal detector? Like, let's be real. So I tossed a couple hundred dollars towards it. And it's my dream to find something with that metal detector. Like, because I follow all these relic hunting pages and YouTube channels and things like that. And especially in New England, a lot of people buried their money like this. And they they come across jars of coins, like usually near markers. Like if you see like a big open field or something and there's like one giant tree that you could tell it's been there forever.

• 40:08Danielle LaRock?

  Like they put, they made a bunch of way for the for a field or crops or whatever, but left a big tree. Like they'll use different natural landmarks. So I don't know. I just really wanna. Gotta get out there. So bad. I know. The problem is, there's so many ticks here.

• 40:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  Just wear tall socks, you'll be okay.

• 40:28Danielle LaRock?

  I know, but I just, and the other thing is with metal detecting is it's really tricky with where you can go legally and where you can't. You can't just, I mean, the beach is kind of fair game, but I'm not interested in that. Okay, I'm interested in like old foundations, which are everywhere, but as far as where you're legally allowed to metal detect and dig and things like that, there's a lot of strict rules. So.

• 40:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Does a metal detector tell you how far away an object is once you find it?

• 40:59Danielle LaRock?

  Thank you for asking. It depends on your model. So there are some metal detectors that'll give you like a range of depth. And it'll also indicate what it's picking up. Is it copper? Is it zinc? Is it gold? Is it, you know, there's different. And there's different beeps and sounds that like you need to study that come in the manual and stuff and you can obviously watch YouTube tutorials on it, but you'll see metal detector operators wearing headphones because it's beeping and those beeps indicate certain things. So that you're not just, it's not just like, oh, beep, one beep, just dig until you find something. It'll indicate like to that person, is this worth it for me? Like the depth or what it's indicating, because a lot of times it's like aluminum Budweisers from twenty five years ago.

• 41:44Danielle LaRock?

  You know, like, I don't want to waste all my time digging up trash.

• 41:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  I wonder if there's a connection between metal detectors and avalanche beacons.

• 41:54Danielle LaRock?

  What do you mean?

• 41:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Just the way that they're used. Cause with beacons, you have, you put them into a search mode and it tells you like how far away you are, how close you're getting. Like the range that you're in. I just wonder if there's, I don't know if there is, I've never looked it up, but I just wonder if there's like a tie, if it's made by similar people, or if it's off of like the same type of technology. It's just really, it's interesting. It was my first thought when you were describing it.

• 42:19Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, just like as far as how the technology works and stuff.

• 42:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it doesn't like, say, this is a person's jacket or whatever, but it feels very similar.

• 42:29Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I don't know. I will say for people, like, I'm sure there are so many people who are way more experienced as me, but hot tip, if you want to get into it and you're ballsy enough, which I wasn't at the time, so I made my boyfriend at the time do it.

• 42:44Danielle LaRock?

  I was scared because there are so many rules and regulations on where you can and can't do that. If you have like a personal connection or a good relationship with somebody with an old property, like going there and getting their permission is so cool because usually it's not like somewhere that has been run over a bunch of times with different people looking and it's usually just like really well taken care of or whatever. And in Merrimack, there was a really cool house. It was from the 1700s and I would pass it every day for work. And then that was in the height of my metal detecting. And I'm like, I really want to go there. Like that looks like it's cool. Cause they had a beautiful, it wasn't just

• 43:25Danielle LaRock?

  a yard. They had like a bunch of property. And so I had my boyfriend at the time, like, I was like, please go ask them. And it was just this older couple. And he was like, yeah, sure. And he gave us permission and we went and like, looked on his property. He's like, just show me anything if you find it. Like, that would be interesting.

• 43:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Did you find anything?

• 43:43Danielle LaRock?

  We found a couple of bullets and a couple of like really old rusty belt buckles and things like that. But we were only there for one day. We didn't want to like overstay our welcome or anything. But anyway, so going back to Rachel, I would love to see her and to like, watch her eyes of where she's looking and be like, oh, oh, is it here? Tell me hotter or colder, hotter or colder.

• 44:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like ghost, please. Like, am I the one who should find your hidden stash?

• 44:14Danielle LaRock?

  I'd have to give it all to the National Park Service. And it's like, I already do enough for you. I have this podcast. I sing your praises every week. But yeah, so I don't know if they're even actively looking for it or anything like that. Or maybe it's just like a fun story. But that's that.

• 44:36Danielle LaRock?

  Moving further along in our ghost tour, let's leave the Harper's house around the corner and we'll find ourselves on a place called Hog Alley. This next story is dark and is deeply haunting in a very real way. Ghost sightings aside, this is the story of the life and death of Danger Dangerfield newbie. Dangerfield's father was a white man and his mother was an enslaved black woman. Growing up, he and his siblings and his mother were all enslaved. In eighteen fifty-eight, when Dangerfield was around thirty-eight years old, his father moved their family to Ohio, in the process freeing them from slavery. But Dangerfield's battle against this cruel and inhumane system was far from over because his own wife and children were still enslaved in Virginia.

• 45:20Danielle LaRock?

  For years, Dangerfield worked to try and raise enough money to buy his wife and his children their freedom. In the spring and summer of eighteen fifty-nine, Dangerfield's wife was sending him more and more desperate letters expressing that she was really worried that the man who was enslaving her might try and sell her and she would move locations before Dangerfield had been able to put together the money to save her. She urged him to come visit her in the fall, whether he had all the money or not. She just wanted to see him and to be together again. Her hopes for their future were starting to crumble and the asking price that her enslaver set to buy her freedom was a thousand dollars. And although Dangerfield saved seven hundred and forty-two, he wasn't able to free them.

• 46:05Danielle LaRock?

  Overcome with anger and desperate to save his wife and children, he decided to join John Brown's raid on Harpers Ferry and aid the armed forces that planned to forcibly free enslaved people. On the night of the raid, he kept his beloved wife's letters tucked into his pocket, but never got to see his wife again. During the raid, a Harpers Ferry resident shot a spike from his rifle through Dangerfield's neck. The residents of the town repeatedly stabbed him, chopped off his limbs, and left his body in an alley to be eaten by the hogs that roamed the streets of town.

• 46:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's horrific.

• 46:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and that's why this alley is known as Hog Alley.

• 46:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  And, oh my, wait, so this is a frequent thing that happened to people? Or because there were hogs there?

• 46:52Danielle LaRock?

  There was wild hogs there and things like that, but it definitely plays a part in that story, yeah.

• 46:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Imagine, people are, people did that to him simply because he wanted freedom.

• 47:04Danielle LaRock?

  And to help his wife and children.

• 47:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Children.

• 47:07Danielle LaRock?

  Obtain their freedom.

• 47:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Not be enslaved.

• 47:09Danielle LaRock?

  So it feels like a stark, like, anyway, back to the ghost tour. But I mean, that's part of what this is, right? Learning about the history, learning about the stories behind names and where you are in present day and why it's important to study history and know history because it gives you real insight.

• 47:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Of why it might be haunted too. What?

• 47:27Danielle LaRock?

  Of course.

• 47:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. What really bad energy and not all, all hauntings are bad energy, but what really, sometimes it's really dark energy that's stayed there for this long.

• 47:38Danielle LaRock?

  So in this alley, current visitors sometimes see his ghost wandering through the street with a gruesome scar across his neck. Some ghost tour attendees have taken photos in this alley and noticed a translucent figure in the background. And a few people even believe that they have actually documented Dangerfield and his ghost in their photos, not just like, oh, it's a shimmer, it's a weird blob, it's a weird orb, it's something unexplainable, like they think it's can be attributed to him exactly. Dangerfield's painful life and gut wrenching death echo the stories of so many black Americans that lost their lives at the hands of white violence under slavery, separated from their families and who endured immense suffering in both life and death.

• 48:20Danielle LaRock?

  And this is a good point to say, you know, I love a good ghost tour as much or even more than the next person. But this particular story of Dangerfield and what happened to him raises a really important point that these ghost stories stem from real places of real pain felt by real people. And encounters with the paranormal can be, I mean, they're thrilling, people love to seek them out, I love them, you know, it adds a big, a lot of people are interested in them and it serves as a point of entertainment for a lot of people. And I think in some ways, like, I definitely contribute to that. But the tragedies that led to these particular hauntings in Harpers Ferry, like, you know,

• 49:05Danielle LaRock?

  they're real stories of suffering and, and not just in Harpers Ferry, other places too.

• 49:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  But. Yeah, I think that's really important to note. And I also think there's this other side of it where it's like you're telling this ghost story, but now I learned history that maybe I wouldn't have been that interested in or invested in. That's also history that I think is really important to be remembered. So I think. One of the really cool things, even though ghost tours can be a form of entertainment, it's also a way to really teach people in an engaging way that people are never gonna forget.

• 49:39Danielle LaRock?

  Right. Yeah, like, cause researching this episode and John Brown's raid and stuff like that stuck with me more in the way that I, in the context that I was wanting to seek out the information than when I was forced to read it in a textbook. You know, it's all about like how that hook comes and like, it's the same information. It's just presented in a different way. And I think ghost tours are a great way of conveying information. If it's not just all like, I know a lot of them are just, especially around Halloween, when some of them like crop up that aren't year round things. They're more of just for like spooky season and woo, you know.

• 50:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:19Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, um, I'm not saying it's like a blanket statement, but by and large, I think that they're an amazing, uh, like trick to get people to care about history.

• 50:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know. History can feel so bland and boring.

• 50:33Danielle LaRock?

  Boring. I know.

• 50:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  I hated some of, not all my history classes, like as a whole, but I remember learning some history and being like, oh, I could fall asleep right now. This is awful. But when you add stuff that you are truly invested in and interested in, it just, it takes a whole new spin on it. And

• 50:50Danielle LaRock?

  And when you include stories that aren't the same 10 people over and over and over, like when you give voice to other people who were involved, who had been omitted or silenced or whatever, like it just adds so much. But anyway, okay. We're getting into like

• 51:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  We just love history and we're trying to explain why.

• 51:12Danielle LaRock?

  Like, this is a fun episode. What do you mean?

• 51:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, we love this.

• 51:16Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. So if you're to leave Hog Alley and head towards the Potomac River, you'll eventually hit the railroad tracks. And these tracks are said to be haunted by the ghost of a woman named Jenny. Jenny used to live in a little house on the shore of the river, and those who knew her often saw her walking along the shores and collecting driftwood for her fireplace. One day, her dress slipped into the fire and she started running frantically, screaming for help as the flames grew around her. In her panic, she ran out onto the tracks and was struck by an oncoming train, which is what eventually killed her.

• 51:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  She, it was before stop, drop. She is why we were taught stop, drop and roll.

• 51:56Danielle LaRock?

  She was panicking when she should have just been rolling, you know?

• 51:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, we all know you stop, drop and roll.

• 52:02Danielle LaRock?

  That works though, like all the time, right?

• 52:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Only one way to find out.

• 52:06Danielle LaRock?

  Cause I just imagine her dress being so much like those dresses.

• 52:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like the corsets and the layers.

• 52:13Danielle LaRock?

  And all the layers. I want to say they're chiffon involved, Tefla. Is it Tefla or is that turf?

• 52:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Although I imagine if this was summertime in the south that she, it was like a more lightweight dress.

• 52:25Danielle LaRock?

  One would hope. Well, since her death, engineers driving on the train tracks have reported seeing a ball of fire on the tracks. And as they approach, hearing a screaming sound. People standing by the train tracks have seen something similar. And they all say that the ball of fire always disappears when the train hits it. So maybe it's like a residual.

• 52:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's jarring.

• 52:46Danielle LaRock?

  Repeat repetitive play out of final moments is also awful because that's a terrifying way. That's like top five way to go, I think.

• 52:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Also for the person who's in the train and sees it coming and they can't stop.

• 53:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and don't know what it is.

• 53:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  And don't know what it is. What if you're going and you're like, oh, that's just the ghost and it's not the ghost.

• 53:07Danielle LaRock?

  You can never assume it's the ghost.

• 53:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, that's a really bad. No one's gonna take that in court.

• 53:13Danielle LaRock?

  They're like, hey, okay, actually, have you heard of Jenny?

• 53:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  She's a ghost. I just thought it was her again.

• 53:19Danielle LaRock?

  Back in town, there's another notable spirit whose presence has been noticed many times by tourists and locals. And that would be the ghost of good old John Brown. Multiple people who have seen his ghost initially thought they were seeing a modern day reenactor in costume. Because plenty of people in Harper's Ferry wear civil war outfits as part of their jobs. One group of tourists was sure he was a reenactor. And according to them, they stopped and even spoke with him for a brief amount of time and even posed for a picture with him. But when they looked back at the photo, they were shocked to find that there was an empty space where that man had been standing.

• 53:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  See, that's a haunting that I could get behind. One that I didn't know was a ghost at the time. Spoke to took a photo with.

• 54:02Danielle LaRock?

  My question is, what are you talking about? Like, what in your conversation? I feel like a conversation would indicate that something's weird. Like, what are you conversing about in 2025? That John Brown from the 1800s is going to keep up with and vice versa?

• 54:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, maybe I'm just imagining it. And obviously I have no idea how this transpired. But I'm just imagining that they thought he was a reenactor and so he was fully in part.

• 54:31Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, right.

• 54:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  The whole time and they're like, oh, let's get a picture.

• 54:34Danielle LaRock?

  But what? Here we are. It's like, what do you mean a picture? Like with he? I know that there was cameras.

• 54:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  There were cameras.

• 54:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but not in the way.

• 54:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, he's been a ghost for a while. Maybe he's not. Maybe he knows about the iPhone now.

• 54:47Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, he's in on it is what you're saying.

• 54:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, maybe he's just. Or maybe it's just like, I don't know. Maybe not a concern for him.

• 54:55Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, he's like, oh, that's a strange device. But I know what a picture is, so I'll stand here.

• 55:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 55:02Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know. I find holes in that, but.

• 55:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  I find holes in that, too. I think that I don't know if to have a full conversation with a ghost, to see an apparition walking by or something, but to have a full conversation, which I know people have said in other circumstances and stuff, too. But it's just so hard for me to be in the presence of a ghost and think that it's a real living person and having like face to face conversation. I can't really wrap my mind around that. However, I would accept a haunting like that.

• 55:34Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so that's on the list of maybe like number three?

• 55:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, like I don't know it's a haunting, but then later I'm like, I look back at the photo and I'm like, I swear it happened and no one believes me, but I know.

• 55:45Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And you can't also now show that picture to outside people because you could clearly easily be like, that's staged. Like you guys just formed into a little group.

• 55:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Picture of me pretending to put my arm around someone.

• 55:59Danielle LaRock?

  And with that, we are going to wrap up our mini ghost tour for today. But if you find yourself in West Virginia and want an in-person ghost tour, like a real one of Harper's Ferry, did some Googling. Again, I can't personally vouch. Google knows all. You should definitely check into the Ob Joyful Historical Tours. Their walking tour of Harper's Ferry came up again and again in researching this episode as like the go-to top tour to visit. And I mentioned it a couple of times throughout the episode, obviously, but Harper's Ferry is home to the oldest ghost tour in the country, and that's because of this specific tour. This group has been leading walking ghost tours in Harper's Ferry for over 50 years.

• 56:44Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, wow. That's really cool. The tours are led by historian Rick Garland, who wears a full period piece costume, including a top hat and a lantern, which sometimes I like. Maybe I'll like it with Rick. And one reason he does this, he says, is because if you dress in the style of the era that the ghosts lived in, they might be more likely to interact with you. I think that that's fair. That's so fair. That's a valid point. And I've never thought of it that way. I thought it was just more of like a gimmicky thing, but if there's real reason to it, I'm on board with that. Well, now you know what to wear. I know. Now I know what to wear. I feel like I need a Victorian dress. I'm shocked you don't have one. Well, I took for my birthday a couple of years ago when I was in Estes.

• 57:28Danielle LaRock?

  I like went to one of those old timey photo places, you know? It's like dress up as whatever, and they had like a bunch of options and like a bunch of different backdrops and stuff. And I put on this like, and it was not even, it basically, it didn't even like pin in the back. It was kind of just like a smock kind of of this like lace Victorian style dress. And I put the backdrop as like a little reading nook. And I had my picture taken and I'm like fake reading a book and I look like I'm from the eighteen hundreds and I have it framed on my wall.

• 58:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love that.

• 58:02Danielle LaRock?

  And is that narcissistic? Maybe, but I think it's fun.

• 58:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  I think it's fun.

• 58:07Danielle LaRock?

  But yeah, and it's so it's like, I feel like, I don't know where I wear that dress around, but.

• 58:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  I feel like you would find a lot of places to wear that dress. I feel like you would wear that dress way more than you even realize. I feel like you would wear it to historic hotels.

• 58:23Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 58:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  To haunt, to ghost tours, maybe live shows. I feel like, I feel like the dress would get use.

• 58:32Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, maybe I just need to do, I think, a happy medium for that. A happy medium would be, you know how you can go to like a ball or like there's like events like that? Like that's where I need to.

• 58:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  I've never been invited to a ball.

• 58:47Danielle LaRock?

  I think you can sign up.

• 58:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Really?

• 58:49Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I think different places. I remember when Bridgerton was huge, they would have like Bridgerton themed galas that like anyone could attend.

• 58:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  I want to go to a gala ball.

• 59:00Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know what you do once you're there. I think it's specific.

• 59:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Invite us, guys. If you're listening and you throw elegant balls, please invite us.

• 59:10Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I want an excuse.

• 59:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  To wear.

• 59:12Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, okay. Um, okay, back to Rick Garland and his tour.

• 59:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  The ghost story.

• 59:18Danielle LaRock?

  On his specific tour, he blends history with local lore and he respects the souls whose stories he tells. On their website, it states, "We do not attempt to contact, talk to, or hunt any ghostly spirits. However, we do allow and encourage picture taking", which is also really cool.

• 59:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  That is really cool. That's really nice.

• 59:38Danielle LaRock?

  This famous ghost tour was originally created by a woman named Shirley Daughtry. When Shirley moved to Harpers Ferry and opened a restaurant called The Old Iron Horse in nineteen sixty-eight, she didn't believe in ghosts or spirits or the paranormal, but after a while, too many strange things were happening that she could not explain away. So she started asking more questions about the history of Harpers Ferry and all of its strange occurrences. When she opened that door, stories poured in and many local people came to her with their own haunted tales and unexplained encounters and their own experiences. And she compiled all of that into a book. Called A Ghostly Tour of Harper's Ferry and the stories in that book became the foundation for that ghost tour.

• 1:00:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow, that's really cool.

• 1:00:24Danielle LaRock?

  Good origin story.

• 1:00:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Love that.

• 1:00:26Danielle LaRock?

  So if you're ever in Harper's Ferry and you see a man with a hat and a bushy white beard off in the distance, it could be Rick Garland, or it could be John Brown's ghost. The past and the present are deeply intertwined in this picturesque town in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Many souls never got to leave Harper's Ferry, and for those of us just passing through, their stories are a reminder of how the past has always and will always be part of the present.

• 1:00:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow, very cool. The end. Well, thank you for sharing that episode because I feel like I was on one of our ghost tours that you take me on.

• 1:01:01Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I was trying for this episode. Actually, I was like, I actually, I'm kind of interested in how many I've been to. And of course, there's a difference between doing a ghost tour of, say, like, the Stanley Hotel versus a walking ghost tour of Estes Park. You know, I'm, so I was like, okay, haunted ghost tours of buildings and things like that aside, how many city ghost walking tours have I done? And it was really hard to count, but I think I'm at one, two, three, four, five. I have nine down, but I feel like that's, so I have Ybor City in Florida. That was me and Ian, that was like, I love that ghost tour.

• 1:01:44Danielle LaRock?

  Old Town San Diego, which we did together. Old Town Albuquerque, which I did with Ian and his mom. East Seattle Underground, highly recommend. Boston, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Golden, Colorado, Key West, Florida. We did one in London.

• 1:02:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  London.

• 1:02:01Danielle LaRock?

  London. And I'm like, I feel like I've done more with Cassie, but I can't.

• 1:02:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, we did one in Austin, Texas.

• 1:02:07Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, thank you, Austin, Texas. But it's like, I, so I don't know, I feel like I've done quite a few. But I think that it's such a cool way to see a new place because of course, people have different preferences and when you ask to go somewhere and people have wrecks, it's Usually around like the best place for drinks or the best meal to get or like the best bar or um and that's all well and good, but I think that going on a walking tour, whether it be ghostly paranormal or there are some really cool architectural tours, like just so you actually stop and look up at the buildings that you're around and seeing all the intricate details and

• 1:02:48Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know, I just think that there's something to be said about stopping and pausing and really looking around where you're at. And I think that ghost tours are a really beautiful way to do that because it's entertaining, it's engaging and you're also learning.

• 1:03:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it gives you context to where you are.

• 1:03:05Danielle LaRock?

  Your way through wherever you're at.

• 1:03:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, so all in all, a good time.

• 1:03:10Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so that's that. Hope you liked it.

• 1:03:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I thought that that was a really, it was a fun episode. It was dark. It was fun. It was dark. It was emotional. It was exciting. It was all the things. I really enjoyed it. So thank you for telling it.

• 1:03:24Danielle LaRock?

  Of course. Well, we will see everybody uh next week. I would love, actually, I'm like, I was about to sign off, but just one request. I would love to know like your favorite, if you've done a ghost tour, what your favorite one was. Not, you don't have to say the uh company name or anything, but the location, like the city. I know, of course, Savannah is a huge hotspot, New Orleans, of course. Um but just, I don't know, and those can be counted too, if they were truly your favorite. But there are a lot of places that kind of fly under the radar, I think, as far as like spooky spots. So if you've been on a memorable ghost tour of somewhere that feels like kind of random, I would love to know.

• 1:04:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, and if you went on a ghost tour and you had a cool experience, maybe it could be a trail tale.

• 1:04:10Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, trail tale for sure. Those count.

• 1:04:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  They do.

• 1:04:14Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, well, we will see everyone next week.

• 1:04:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  In the meantime, enjoy the view.

• 1:04:18Danielle LaRock?

  But watch your back.

• 1:04:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye, everyone.

• 1:04:20Danielle LaRock?

  Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark.

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