GT Dave

GT Dave is the founder of GT’s Living Foods and a key figure in the commercialization of kombucha in the United States. He began producing and selling kombucha in the mid-1990s, starting with small batches distributed to local Los Angeles health food stores. Under GT’s leadership, the company expanded through natural food retailers, including Whole Foods, and grew into a leading kombucha brand while maintaining a focus on raw, fermented products including Synergy kombucha, Alive mushroom beverage, and coconut yogurt Cocoyo. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: AGZ https://DrinkAG1.com/tetra ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Lectio 365 https://Lectio365.com ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Rick Rubin?

  Tetra Grahamaton.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  I was raised by two very holistic spiritual parents, who raised me a vegetarian. So I was raised with this strong belief of like, food can be medicine, or food can be poison. So following that philosophy, my parents brought a lot of weird things into the house, from noni juice, to aloe vera juice, to wheatgrass, tofu, you name it. But in the early 90s, one of the things that they brought in was this thing called kombucha. And I remember it very clearly because it was a very defining moment. My dad came home one day with a kombucha culture, which if you've seen when they're kind of these like rubbery circular pancakes, so to speak. And he came home with it in a Ziploc bag. And he goes to my mom and to my brothers like, "Hey guys, I'm gonna make kombucha tomorrow.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  It's called the drink of immortality." And both of us were like, "Okay dad, you're crazy, whatever." But that next day and every day after that, I noticed that he became obsessive with making it and drinking it. And the way he would make it was very pungent. Like kombucha's pungent on its own. But he would make it incredibly pungent to the point where only him and my mother could stomach it. I tried and I was like, "Dad, I love you. I've tried a lot of the crazy things you brought into this household, but I just can't." So then fast forward two years later, it just became more and more integrated into the household. And then ultimately played a very strong role in my mom's health.

• 1:45Rick Rubin?

  Before you got involved in the business of kombucha, it had a healing effect on your mom?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. So the way kombucha was introduced to my parents is that because my parents were on that kind of spiritual holistic health path, kombucha was circulating a little bit in L.A. There was this underground movement of kombucha in the early 90s. And I think it was primarily because it was getting buzz about how it was helping individuals with HIV/AIDS and/or cancer. And so that's where it was like getting... And you know, AIDS back then was like this unknown. So the fact that it was doing something positive, I think was giving it attention. But my father's friend was very skeptical. He was like a raw foodist, only lived off of fresh pressed juice, primarily vegetable juice. So he gave the culture to my father, saying, hey, everybody's raving about this.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  My, my wife thinks it's like better than anything she's ever had. He's like, but I'm not buying it. Will you try it? So that was the beauty of it. My parents kind of just took that leap of faith. They didn't have any preset expectations, but they immediately resonated with it.

• 2:48Rick Rubin?

  It either works or it doesn't.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50Rick Rubin?

  It's not toxic.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fermentation, which, you know, is one of the oldest traditions in, in human kind of food behavior.

• 2:57Rick Rubin?

  The kombucha scene in LA, who was the first one who brought it in? And how did it travel through? Cause it was a very small community.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  So it's a store called the Beverly Hills Juice Club in LA, still in existence, right? And Dave Otto, who's like the pioneer of cold pressed juice. Yeah. So it was his wife that actually took a trip to the Himalayas and came back with the culture. So I think that's actually how it originated coming here. I think people.

• 3:22Rick Rubin?

  Which street was it on? Do you remember?

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's on Beverly and Orlando.

• 3:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's still there.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  It's still there.

• 3:26Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Isn't that crazy?

• 3:27Rick Rubin?

  Haven't been in a very long time.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is admirable because you think of all the different juice brands that have come and gone. The fact that he's still there says a lot.

• 3:35Rick Rubin?

  And they still do it the same way?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  They still do it the same way. Yeah.

• 3:37Rick Rubin?

  It's beautiful.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  They press it daily. They make what they can sell. And then if they sell out, they sell out. It's like a beautiful business model. I mean, anyways, in many ways, it's what I still emulate to this day. But no, back to your question, like when kombucha came into the household, I was just a kid. I mean, I was like 13, 14 years old. I think that's number one, why I was even unable to embrace kombucha. Cause it was too far out from my young, tender age. But then wouldn't have seen my parents fall in love with it. And then, you know, ultimately what happened, my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer.

• 4:09Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  About two years after she had been drinking the kombucha. And, you know, both my parents were plant-based, spiritual, athletic, like picture of perfect health. And so my mom went to the doctor thinking she was pregnant. And they're like, Mrs. Dave, you're not pregnant. But you do have something growing inside you. And it's a very large cancer tumor in your right breast.

• 4:32Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  And it was so large, the tumor was this big. She thought it was a muscle, surprisingly, because we had this big Doberman Pinscher that she would walk up the steep hill that we lived off of. And she thought it was just from him pulling her.

• 4:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  They're like, no, it's not a muscle. It's a cancer tumor that you've probably had for four years. And so they said to her, like, we don't think this is looking good. Based on our preliminary test, we think this, it has metastasized. We believe it's likely gone to your bones. And they're like, we're gonna see what treatments we can give you, but it's looking like six to nine months that maybe you have.

• 5:04Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  And I remember she came home.

• 5:07Rick Rubin?

  Must have been shocked.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Like, I remember, like, it was yesterday. She brought me and my brothers and my father out to the backyard and was like, you could already tell that she was like, ready to crack. And she was like, you know, boys, I went to the doctor today because I thought I was pregnant. She just retold the story. And she's like, but this is what I actually have. But she's like, I'm gonna fight this. I'm gonna fight this because I want to live. I want to see my kids grow up. I want to, you know, see life unfold and all of that. But you could tell she was so scared. But ironically, you know what happened, Rick? It's like, then two weeks later, it was almost like deja vu. She took us back out to the same table in the same backyard. And was like, hey, I have some more news.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  And she said, I went, I was called into the doctor's office. And I was scared, because normally that's when they have bad news. But she said, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that they didn't have bad news. They had good news. And they shared with me that my cancer has not spread. It has not gone to my bones or my, or anything like that. And they brought me in because they want to know what I'm doing differently. And so she said, like, you know, I told them simply, like, I exercise. I'm vegetarian. And I've been drinking this pungent tasting tea for the last couple of years, and it makes me feel great. The doctor said, well, this is Dave, that's great. Whatever this tea is, like, continue to drink it because it's clearly helping you. And that was the catalyst for like, understanding more.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Because I think up to that point, it was just like the pseudo quasi-healthy thing that they didn't really know why it was healthy. But they drank it and they felt it, felt good, and that was it.

• 6:44Rick Rubin?

  But it's got a lineage for thousands of years of people drinking it as a health tonic.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, if you think of kombucha, dairy or water kefir, you know, miso, tempeh, you know, sauerkraut, kimchi. I mean, these are foods that like cultures relied on. I don't even think they really knew what was in it, but they just knew that there was like this chemistry that their bodies needed or resonated with. Honestly, that moment, something happened where I was like, this needs to be shared. And then on the flip side, Rick, I was getting ready to drop out of high school. Because I was a young gay boy growing up in LA in the 90s. And unlike today's world, for the most part, it was not welcome. And I was being bullied, I was being ostracized. And so I was on my own path, thinking like,

• 7:33Speaker 01

  I'm gonna need to make a hard turn of some sort because I'm not on a path that I feel good about. And so that, mixed with kombucha and how it helped my mom, all of a sudden, together became my new purpose. I look back sometimes, I did an ayahuasca ceremony two weekends ago, and the medicine brought me back to that moment. Because a lot of times our lives are defined by these pivotal moments that sometimes we ignore or we don't remember. But that was definitely a pivotal moment for me.

• 8:04Rick Rubin?

  It sounds like it. So then, how did you start the sharing process?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Obviously, I'm biased, since this sounds like I might be self-proclaiming, but I came from like the purest of intentions because I think because I had nothing to lose, I didn't have any like monetary aspirations. Like, I was just this young boy that was like, hey, I need a new path. I was raised with spirituality and health food. I just want to do this. And it wasn't a business plan. I didn't even know the word entrepreneur. So I just went to my parents and I needed their blessings. I said, Mom, Dad, this kombucha has really blessed the household. I think the world could benefit from it. I think we should do something with it. And my parents are like, son, that's a beautiful idea. That's a big thing to embark upon. Like, why don't you do it?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  And when they gave me that permission and then because of my circumstances, gave me that freedom, because you know, I really didn't have anything to lose. If I pursued this and it failed, I could go back to school.

• 9:02Rick Rubin?

  Do you think they believed in it? Or do you think they just thought this is a crazy idea? Let him spin out on his own?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  I think it was a combination of both. I think they, I think they sincerely believed that kombucha was special.

• 9:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, because they've been drinking it now for years.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  They had seen it firsthand. Not only were they drinking it, they were, they became like ambassadors and evangelists. Like every time someone would come over, pour them a glass, a champagne glass of kombucha. And they would see how people like would resonate with it, you know? So they definitely believed in it. And I think honestly, for me, I think they were just really impressed that I had a passion. And, you know, I know that in the back of their minds, at some point this came to the forefront, that they had some doubt. Even my mom sat me down about like a year into it. She goes, okay, where is this going? Like, I don't really want a teetotaler for like a son. And I took that so personally because I was like, Mom, a teetotaler? That's what you think I'm doing? Like, I'm spreading, this is a mission I'm on. So there was some doubt.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I understand it.

• 10:03Rick Rubin?

  Well, no one else was doing it.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:05Rick Rubin?

  And it was a whole new category of drink.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  And it was completely against the grain of what everything that was out there.

• 10:11Rick Rubin?

  Was juiceine getting more popular? Or was still the Beverly Hills Juice Place the only place that had it?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  No, so it's a great point. So Edwala debuted nationally more or less around the time that I launched, right? My first store was Air One. Not the Air One that we know today, right? Which is a beautiful chain of stores. This was a, basically a mom and pop. As crunchy granola as you can get. Didn't sell anything that had animal products in it, right? They were like purists of the pure. And that's where we would grocery shop. So naturally, that's where I wanted to sell it.

• 10:42Rick Rubin?

  I used to shop there too. It was a great store.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Great store, great store. So yeah, at the time, the only thing that was considered cutting edge, outside of wheatgrass and like those more staple, kind of apple cider vinegar staple foods. Edwala had just expanded out of Half Moon Bay slash Dinuba, which is Northern California, and started to expand almost nationally. And they were doing pressed juice, carrot juice. They had a four-day shelf life. I mean, it was incredible. But then something happened. They had their first recall.

• 11:10Rick Rubin?

  I remember that too.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  And that shook me to my core, to be honest, because, you know, I was a young boy at the time and there was no playbook for me to follow. So I'm trying to find kind of piecemeal inspiration to like help define my path. Like who can I learn from? And I, you know, honestly really admired Edwala. So I was like, these are people that are celebrating food from the earth. Food that's been unprocessed, unpasteurized, just like basically juiced to the bottle. But then like six months after that, I remember going into Air One to deliver and their cooler was empty. And it was, there was a sign saying, there's been E. coli in their apple juice. And it like seriously caused some people to get very ill or even led to a death. And it was scary because it all of a sudden changed the narrative.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Like fresh and raw became dangerous. And so that actually became a cross that I had to bear throughout my next five to 10 years because I was very passionate about kombucha, can't be kombucha unless it's raw. If you try to pasteurize or something like that, you're wasting people's time and money.

• 12:15Rick Rubin?

  It's like milk.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:16Rick Rubin?

  Pasteurized milk is-

• 12:17Speaker 01

  It's dead, just like a baby calf. If they drink pasteurized milk, they'll die.

• 12:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  So, but I had to overcome this like negativity and misinformation about raw, unprocessed food. But back to the point, like I admired them, but I learned from them. Because after the fiasco, they came back with a pasteurized product. And then later sold to Coke. And I said, I'd rather not make my product than make something that I don't believe in. Because my parents would believe that you really want to consume the juice within a short period of time after like the cells have been cracked and all of that. Because it starts to oxidize. I mean, that's why it's so important to eat fresh food. Because there's- You know, there's some, there's a life force in it that isn't indefinite. It'll fade out.

• 12:58Rick Rubin?

  It's like vital energy.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:00Rick Rubin?

  It's in the food.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yes, and you lose that with time quickly.

• 13:03Rick Rubin?

  What's the shelf life on kombucha?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  It varies from the ingredients we use, but I'd say on average, like three to four months.

• 13:09Rick Rubin?

  That's pretty good.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  It's good because it's fermented, right? So it has, that's the duty of fermentation, and that's actually how I came up with the name Synergy. Is it to me, because I was big into fresh pressed juice. And at the time, because of Idwala, there was really no fresh pressed juice. Because now, everything had to be pasteurized for food safety reasons, right? But we were able to bypass that because kombucha has a low pH because of the fermentation. So it has naturally preserving qualities, natural even antibacterial qualities that would synergize with the fruit juice and allow it to last longer.

• 13:42Rick Rubin?

  So it would be more like kimchi or sauerkraut?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Where you take something that's normally fresh and highly perishable, but through the fermentation, you like extend and preserve its freshness, but also preserve everything that's good about it. And that's why I like Synergy, because my first brand was called Kombucha. And yes, like, the diehards loved it, but when I tried to turn on my friends to it, and again, I was a teenager at the time. They'd be like, yo, it's like, sounds too far out, I'm not into it. And so I thought, okay, I need to like rebrand it. So I need something American.

• 14:15Rick Rubin?

  And they used to be next to each other, because I remember I used to drink the kombucha.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:19Rick Rubin?

  And then when the Synergy came out in the same bottle, I was confused. Because they looked a lot alike, but they were branded differently.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was a blessing and a curse. I think the blessing was, is as we grew, we never felt too big on the shelf, because we almost intentionally diluted our, our brand presence, right? But then the curse came from, you know, as we started to evolve as a more sophisticated company, if you want to call it that, where you have to like market and you need brand recognition. We didn't really have a brand that people would just reference the design of the bottle. They wouldn't speak to it. You know, the health and wellness space, Rick, has been infiltrated in the last like decade. It's heartbreaking what's happened to it. And I hope it, it turns around. I hope like everything in this world depends on us spring, swing back to the other side, but.

• 15:07Rick Rubin?

  Do you still make it same way you always did?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's getting harder. Because the consumer, especially the younger generation, their values have shifted, right? They want quick, they want convenient. They don't want to be bothered with refrigeration or glass or a short shelf life. They want to order it online. They want to stockpile it or pantry load it. They want zero to no sugar, which, listen, I understand. Like, sugar's not great, but like, nature made things sweet for a reason.

• 15:37Rick Rubin?

  I did stop drinking it when I went keto.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:40Rick Rubin?

  I remember reading the label and it didn't say sugar on it.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:44Rick Rubin?

  And then I think we called the company and they're like, "Well, we use sugar in making it."

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:48Rick Rubin?

  I was like, "I can't drink it."

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so that's been kind of the hurdle that kombucha and foods like kombucha, even water kefir, right? You need, what people don't understand is that, especially in this weird world now where the FDA requires this added sugar listing on the label, it's intended to capture true added sugar for sweetening. But at the end of the day, if you're using a version of cane sugar, maple syrup, or even honey, it has to be qualified as added sugar. And so in fermentation, you need energy because you're working with a living thing. And just like us, energy is fuel to do stuff. And so it fuels the fermentation. But at the end of the day, it's technically still a sugar source.

• 16:27Rick Rubin?

  Does it have no carbs, though?

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Well, so the thing is, if it has no carbs, to get to a no carb kind of position, you have to ferment it down to almost vinegar.

• 16:36Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  And then what happens is it becomes unpleasant to drink. And that's one of the reasons why we started the Synergy Line because we were taking what at the time was considered a very pungent base and then softening it with a fruit juice, right? So you give it flavor and a little bit.

• 16:49Rick Rubin?

  But good quality fruit juice.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yes, good quality, not, you know, high fructose corn syrup stuff.

• 16:54Rick Rubin?

  Right, right.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  But like, right now, we're in a day and age where people are so obsessed with macros. They're forgetting about the micros, right? Like, there's nutrients that I don't even think science has even began to understand. Like, as you know, like, the entourage effect of when a whole food, yes, maybe a carrot has beta carotene, but it has these other things that when you consume it in its whole form, does something to your body.

• 17:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I remember when Reversatral became popular.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Rick Rubin?

  People found out it doesn't do the same thing when you just separate out the versatile.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. And that applies to so many other things, you know, and but right now we're in this like, and I get it, I subscribe to a version of it of like this biohacking, health hacking, right, where you find these, I don't call them shortcuts, but there are these very scientific ways of giving your body what it needs, which I think has its time and place. But you can't ignore, I think, our origin story as humans, like, we're part of this planet, so we need to eat really close to it.

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• 19:56Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the first batch that you made for sale.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Well, first I had to go and pitch it to Air One, which I had no idea what I was doing, Rick. Like, I walked in in a suit and tie, hair slicked back with a briefcase with my dad behind me for backup.

• 20:15Rick Rubin?

  Did you bring any kombucha with you?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. And I handed them a bottle of kombucha. And they're like, what's this? I'm like, it's the fermented tea from Manchuria, China. I'll make it to order. It's the freshest, most potent, you know, kombucha that's out there. And I think your store needs it. I was expecting them to like play like hardball with me. But it was just a series of very simple questions of like, what's the price? Okay. When can you deliver? Okay. Can you deliver tomorrow? Okay. And so I never even opened up my briefcase because it was it was a very just genuine conversation.

• 20:47Rick Rubin?

  And it was a very open-minded store. They sold a lot of cool stuff you couldn't get anywhere else.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. Yeah. So I think even the fact that this was so cutting-edge would definitely appeal to them.

• 20:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  So that I went home and I already had batches fermenting and I in anticipation of my first order. And so I bottled my first batch that next morning.

• 21:06Rick Rubin?

  And you did it handmade yourself?

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Handmade, yeah. We're literally talking fermenting in a room, which was our dining room, that I had blacked out all the windows. I had a space heater.

• 21:16Rick Rubin?

  Does it have to be dark?

• 21:17Speaker 01

  It has to be dark, warm, and slightly humid and quiet. Those are like the primary ingredients of the environment.

• 21:23Rick Rubin?

  Why quiet?

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Because it's almost like a baby. Maybe in the womb. I mean, I used to sometimes just stare at the vessels like fermenting because it almost you start seeing like this this life force, this living energy of bubbles and transformation and all of that.

• 21:39Rick Rubin?

  What are the stringy things?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  So those are like a combination of the yeast and bacteria. And it's almost like it's tendrils extending down because it really wants to interact with all the liquid. Because it really is consuming the nutrients that are in the tea, the carbohydrates and whatever fermenting agent you're using.

• 21:58Rick Rubin?

  And whatever's in it is diluted in the water.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:03Rick Rubin?

  So it's sucking the nutrition from throughout the water. It's not sitting at the bottom of the water, the nutrition.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  No, so what is like the best analogy I can give for kombucha is it's it's like a plant. Right? So the tea base is its soil and fertilizer. It breathes air. The humidity and warmth is almost like it's sunshine. And just like anything, you plant a seed, you nurture the plant. At some point, its byproduct is a fruit or vegetable. The byproduct is the tea. And that's basically the the outcome of this miraculous fermentation that takes place in every batch. And so, yeah, so when I delivered it to Air One, I mean, that's when I knew I was on the right path. Is that I remember delivering it and I polished every bottle like it was like a trophy.

• 22:50Rick Rubin?

  Do you remember how many bottles were in the first batch?

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was it was 24 bottles that they ordered. So at the time, that was like the almost two batches. Because I was doing it initially super small, like maybe like three quarts or something. And then I moved to like a gallon. And then eventually I found out that the sweetest, still scaled, but but still homegrown is about like four gallons. And that's how the size we make it today. We don't mass produce. I mean, we make it the same way I did when I was in my parents' kitchen. Because that's why I wanted to make it. Just like I saw with it while I knew when things become commercialized, whether people know it or not, they lose the soul of what they were trying to do. And I didn't want to do that.

• 23:29Rick Rubin?

  And what you're selling is the soul.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:31Rick Rubin?

  That's it.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not trying to sell like a tasty beverage that just people will drink recreationally. I want it to be life changing. I want it to nourish and heal. And so in order to do that, I need to maintain the fundamentals of that. So yeah, so I remember delivering it, polishing the bottles, putting it on the shelf, and just like sitting back for like thirty minutes. And the store opened and people would come in and they would rather walk by it or look at it. Cause I was on the fresh pressed juice shelf. I was actually sharing the shelf with Beverly Hills Juice Club. Cause that was the only store that he would sell his bottles to every day outside of his storefront. Right? And I remember someone grabbed it.

• 24:05Rick Rubin?

  Further down the same block?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're both on Beverly.

• 24:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, he was next to Fred Segal's.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And Nowhere, which was another health food store.

• 24:14Rick Rubin?

  That was a cool store too.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Very cool, yeah. But anyway, so but that like was my first moment of fulfillment. Right? Cause honestly, Rick, I think what I what I was seeking, even though I didn't know it at the time, I was seeking something that would fulfill my heart and soul. And seeing that on the shelf gave me that first taste. And then the second was maybe about like a week or two later when I got my first positive feedback. Where somebody called the eight hundred number that was on the label, which PS was like an answering machine in my bedroom. And it was a female and she said like, hey, I hope this is getting to somebody. I just wanna let you know that I discovered this this unusual kombucha kombucha on the shelf.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  And I bought it, didn't know what it was, but I had some and my headache went away. I just wanna say thank you, like this this made me feel good.

• 25:07Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful. And how many batches?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Was I making?

• 25:11Rick Rubin?

  Did you make at that period?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I mean, at some point, eighty percent of the room was filled. So I was delivering daily myself and I was delivering probably like twelve to twenty cases a day.

• 25:25Rick Rubin?

  Was that the only store?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  It was my first store, but then after that I went to like Co-Opportunity in Santa Monica.

• 25:32Rick Rubin?

  That's another great store.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, another great store, One Life, may they rest in peace, in Venice. Because there was no Whole Foods at the time, there was Mrs. Gooch's.

• 25:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  And I aspired to get into Mrs. Gooch's, but they honestly, they were getting a little too corporate at the time. That something as cutting edge as kombucha was actually against what they were looking for. So I kept on getting rejected. So I was like, alright.

• 25:51Rick Rubin?

  They were more mainstream.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  They were getting very mainstream, which is why ultimately Whole Foods purchased them.

• 25:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  But yeah, like I really grew things almost like an overprotected parent. Like I wanted my babies to be happy and healthy and grow, but not too far too fast.

• 26:06Rick Rubin?

  As you said, the mission wasn't.

• 26:11Rick Rubin?

  To grow big, it was to be pure.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:15Rick Rubin?

  And as big as it can get being pure is great.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:18Rick Rubin?

  The quality was the key.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. Like, I knew I wanted to share this with as many people as possible. But on the condition-

• 26:26Rick Rubin?

  But not at the expense-

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yes, the quality, the integrity, its core purpose. Because, I mean, I remember, you know, later on in my career, like, call it by year five, it was trying to gain traction. And so now, call it opportunistic individuals started to come into the fold. And they started to give me advice. Like, one was like, hey, put it back in plastic, you'll save a ton of money. I was like, no. I got out of plastic for a reason, I'm not going back. Also, they'd say like, hey, like, the stuff floating in it? Like, find a way to get that out, because it's like off-putting. And I said, okay, but there's a mother in apple cider vinegar. And that's what people look for. So if you're turned off by that, then maybe you're not ready. So I had a response for things. And I really was anchored in my, even though I probably didn't know it,

• 27:12Speaker 01

  but I was really anchored in my way. So I was able to somewhat avoid some of these bad advice that I was getting.

• 27:18Rick Rubin?

  Well, they were giving you good business advice.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yes, on how to mainstream and scale.

• 27:22Rick Rubin?

  But not good advice for what this was that you were doing.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So luckily, I was able to kind of stay steady and say no to a lot of those kind of bad suggestions.

• 27:32Rick Rubin?

  What do you think it is about you that was able to keep true to the mission?

• 27:36Speaker 01

  I think it really is, Rick. It's that all I wanted was to do something that I believed in, that I knew was gonna resonate with others. And I didn't really have in my mind, like, a threshold or a milestone of like, I need to reach a million people, or I need to sell a million bottles. It was just like, I want to make one great batch that's gonna affect one person or more. It was like, I had this low bar. And I think by being so young and being so curious, but also like unaffected by the material world, it allowed me to lead with such purity.

• 28:09Rick Rubin?

  Well, it's the reason it worked.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I try to bring myself there more often than not these days. Because this world can change you, especially right now. And, you know, I'm 48 now. I have three kids and, you know, my life is crystallizing more as like a human. But I'm trying not to forget like this origin story, so to speak, that I was born from.

• 28:32Rick Rubin?

  How did you make the labels in the beginning?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  You know, I designed them on my dad's computer. They were black and white. My mom was a big source of inspiration. And she loved these, you know, interesting cosmetics and things like Calvin Klein. And then there was this one brand called Lazlo and Coco Chanel. And they were always very, just like, simple and beautiful. And so my first label was a black and white label that just said, said kombucha kavas. So I thought kavas at the time, it was a Russian term. They referenced kombucha as kavas back when kombucha was big in Russia and still is. And then it was the ultimate, nature's ultimate beverage, which was like a tagline that it came out. And that was it, no flavor. And that was it, there was no, you know.

• 29:17Rick Rubin?

  Well, it was kombucha flavored, really.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. And it was very simple. And I think it stood out because there was, even when Idwala debuted, everything was very bright and even cartoony at times. And I was like, no, I just want the, I want people to feel that all the energy is going on into what's inside the bottle, not marketing or puffery or posturing. And I think I was somewhat right at that. I think that allowed me to stand out.

• 29:42Rick Rubin?

  So how long was it like that? Was it the black and white kombucha label?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  The black and white label lasted about maybe a year and a half. What caused it to change is I, I wanted to come out with a flavor. Because I noticed that as my mom and dad really now became evangelists for kombucha, they started to experiment with how they would serve it. So my mom would sometimes put cranberry juice to change the color. They would sometimes add ginger to kind of brighten it. And so I started to explore with flavors and I thought to myself, okay, this label architecture is too singular. It won't support, you know, a line extension. So I hired a graphic designer and we created a new label. And then that also allowed me to, I explored a different packaging.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  So the bottle that I started off with was actually a plastic juice bottle, because that was only what was available to me at the time. But I knew I wanted to get into glass. But at the time, the barrier to get to glass was so high. But I found a loophole. And it was a barbecue sauce bottle sold from a tiny, tiny distributor. And with the new label and the new bottle, that became my new look. And that was probably about a year and a half afterwards.

• 30:53Rick Rubin?

  And how many flavors did you have at that time?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Three. The first flavor became just the original. Then I came out with a vitamin enriched citrus, which was, it's gonna sound so silly now, but I was taking what was very popular. Do you remember the brand Emergency? So I was taking a packet of the Emergency and putting it in the kombucha. Because it added all these vitamins and a little bit of flavor. I'd bottle it. And you'd only do that by hand, which I was bottling everything by hand. So it was my second flavor. So I did modestly well. But then the one that put me on the map was Ginger Raid. And the name came to me like one night because Gatorade was big. And ginger was nowhere near where it is now in popularity.

• 31:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Probably no drinks, other than maybe ginger ale, which doesn't really taste like ginger.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  No, actually, what inspired me for my Ginger Raid, and I have to give him credit, is yet again, the Beverly Hills Juice Club. He had the apple lemon ginger. And he used like, and he even had apple lemon double ginger, apple lemon triple ginger, where he would increase the amount accordingly. And I just loved the brightness. And I thought, I'm gonna explore that. And it just, it took kombucha to another level. And I think it was, one, a flavor enhancement. Two, an added nutritional or health benefit, because raw ginger is so good for so many different things. And then it slowly started to give, I think, this maybe apprehensive consumer, something relatable to anchor it. Because if it's just kombucha, it's a little too foreign. But like, when you start to, you know, kind of ground it with something that they do understand,

• 32:24Speaker 01

  then the barrier, the fear of the unknown, went away, or at least was reduced. And that put me on the map. Like, those three flavors, it started to really get traction. And then after that synergy was born.

• 32:36Rick Rubin?

  Why does it taste carbonated?

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Because it's fermented. So the beauty of fermentation is that, and there's so many things going on. But to put it simply is you're starting with A, B, C ingredients, right? So tea, water, and some kind of fermenting agent.

• 32:50Rick Rubin?

  There's always tea in the base?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's the tannins and the caffeine that actually are the nutrients that the kombucha culture feeds off of.

• 32:58Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  And it's black tea and green tea. You can't use white tea or decaf tea. Some teas will actually hurt the kombucha because of oils or other things. It's very sensitive. So you have those, that base. And then, you know, the time that you create is temperature, time. Again, just allowing nature to run its course. And then the output is this fizzy, not very sweet, tangy, kind of dynamic thing that we call kombucha.

• 33:27Rick Rubin?

  How long does it take to ferment before you put it in the bottle?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  So when you do it on a very, very, very small scale, right? So when I started with like the, call it the three core vessels, that was seven to 10 days. But then as you scaled, and this is the trap that a lot of competitors fall into, to be honest, is as you try to scale, even though I kept mine still at a homemade level, you have to extend the fermentation time to make sure that the fermentation is complete. So once I went from the seven to 10 day small batch, when I went to the four gallon batch, I ended up at about 30 days.

• 34:01Rick Rubin?

  30 days.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so that's where a lot of the cost comes into play with making kombucha. Because even though, yes, it's a beverage, it emulates more that of a farm, right? Because you plant something, so to speak, and then you need it to justate, and then you harvest it, and then you start all over again. So that's why, like, my facilities, we occupy half a million square feet.

• 34:23Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Because 70% of our facility space is pure fermentation.

• 34:29Rick Rubin?

  And where is this?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  In Los Angeles. Honestly, I miss being a small company because there's just things that you can do when you're smaller, and there's things that you can't do when you're bigger. That's why I think honestly, it's the curse of a growing business is a lot of times you're forced to change even if you don't want to.

• 34:45Rick Rubin?

  Well, I would say if you can make as much as you can make and sell all of it, it's okay. If there's a limit to it, that's okay too.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's something that I'm coming to peace with more and more these days is, as I mentioned, the world's changing and at least right now, consumer behavior, they're seeking more of like the low sugar, the quick fix, all of that. Like I, I'm wrestling with like, do I follow that trend? Or do I just find comfort and solace and confidence in what I'm doing and the why? And listen, you know, I employ 1,100 people now. So I'm responsible for people's livelihood and food on the table. So I'm, it's weird. I'm tasked to kind of keep the business thriving, technically no matter what, so I can take care of them. At the same time, I have to make sure that I'm still honoring the soul of why I got started. And they sometimes compete and it's, it can be challenging.

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• 37:09Rick Rubin?

  So after the three flavors, what would you say the next big change was?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  The debut of Synergy. Yeah, so I debuted Synergy around like a year, two and a half, three years in. You know, everybody judged what I was doing. My parents got it for the most part, and people their age got it. But people my age were like, GT, like, what is this? Like, you're wasting your time. And they wouldn't drink it. But I noticed that if I added juice to it and I called it something else, like Synergy, and Red Bull had just debuted, so energy was a big kind of word that was trending in people's vocabulary. Like, it sounded like it was cool, like it was gonna do something.

• 37:48Rick Rubin?

  It was healthy versus Red Bull.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I would just say, hey, try this, it's called Synergy. We didn't get into the kombucha conversation initially.

• 37:55Rick Rubin?

  It still said kombucha, though, yes?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  On the ingredients. Yeah, so it said Synergy, organic and raw. And then on the ingredients, it would say kombucha.

• 38:04Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Right, so you almost had to look for it. It was a little bit more of a traditional play, right, where you're focusing on the branding and the benefits, but like, the what's inside is somewhat secondary, even tertiary. And I think that helped me democratize kombucha a little bit more. And then again, as we were talking about, having the two brands, because I kept the kombucha brand still going, but then I had Synergy. It's almost like I was catering to two different markets.

• 38:26Rick Rubin?

  It was confusing to me at the time, I can remember. And I always bought the kombucha. I don't remember ever buying the Synergy.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:32Rick Rubin?

  But the fact that the bottles were the same, it seemed like

• 38:36Speaker 01

  They were related.

• 38:36Rick Rubin?

  They must be related.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:38Rick Rubin?

  Because while they looked alike, they didn't look like anything else in the store.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know what, so I eventually changed that, which in my mind, I don't know if I really did something good or bad. But I went to this event in 2019, right before COVID. And it was like a wellness retreat. And it was a lot of people in the health food industry, whether they worked in the industry or they were participants, like consumers, or whatever, right? And people were asking me at the table I was sitting at, like, so what is it you do? And I said, oh, I, you know, I have a kombucha brand. They're like, really? Which one? I said, GT's kombucha, because that's what we were known for. And she goes, never heard of that. And she leaned over to her husband, and she goes, I drink Synergy. And I said, I'm sorry, did you just say you drink Synergy? And she goes, yeah, I go, that's my brand too. And she goes, oh, my God. And that's when I was like, OK, I need to fix this.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Because I'm diluting things. And as things get more competitive, or as I need to allow the brand to evolve, I need to crystallize its identity. So in 2020, we merged them and made them both Synergy.

• 39:39Rick Rubin?

  But it's fine, because the drinks didn't change.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Right, the drinks didn't change.

• 39:41Rick Rubin?

  The only thing that changes, you unified the name.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:44Rick Rubin?

  And now it's all Synergy.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  It's all Synergy. But I still think that there was, and maybe this is me overthinking, Rick. I think there's a potential, an audience that is very purist. And Synergy feels just a little bit too mainstream.

• 39:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I think it's OK.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  You think it's OK?

• 39:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, as long as what's inside is the same.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:02Rick Rubin?

  It's OK.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. There are some consumers, like we recently changed our logo when we celebrated our 30th anniversary. People were calling me up.

• 40:11Rick Rubin?

  When was the 30th anniversary?

• 40:12Speaker 01

  2025.

• 40:13Rick Rubin?

  Wow, congratulations.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  You wouldn't believe that, 30 years. Yeah.

• 40:16Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  So I decided to change the logo because I'm into evolution. And, you know, as I'm getting into this next chapter of my life of being a parent and a more mature adult, you know, I wanted to create a logo that was about servitude. Because I think ultimately, if you maintain a commitment to service, to doing something for others, I think those values keep you honest. And I thought, you know, my luck runs in threes. Like, I'm the third born, November 3rd, all this stuff. And so I thought, OK, 30th year is going to be a symbolic year for the company. So I'm going to evolve the logo and create this almost like servant, servitude kind of image. Immediately, people are like, you sold the company, didn't you?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  And I was like, why would you say that? And like, well, because you changed the logo. And I'm like, but there's a story behind that. But people got spooked by it. So that's why it's so interesting. Like, some of the little changes can still rub people the wrong way.

• 41:13Rick Rubin?

  Well, it tells you how devout your following is.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and how much they pay attention.

• 41:17Rick Rubin?

  True believers.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I love. I mean, that's why I'm here, is because of those people that believed in me and supported, you know, kombucha.

• 41:25Rick Rubin?

  So what would you consider the biggest breakthrough?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  The biggest breakthrough, I would say, happened in like 2003, when now I was starting to mature and evolve again. So like the labels that I referenced, that I did with the barbecue sauce bottle and all of that. People were saying, hey, the bottle, I can't put in my cup holder. This is back when cars didn't have the flexible cup holder. It was very rigid. So I was like, and that's a problem because then I can't drink my kombucha when I want to. So I said, okay, I need to fix that. So I, that's when I came out with a long kind of cylinder bottle. And then I worked with the design team in Seattle for almost a year to yet again redesign the packaging with what I call now the Lotus Architecture, which is our current packaging.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  And I think that, mixed with the new bottle, mixed with the liquid that hadn't changed inside, took us to another level. It was like this trifecta of positioning that now the liquid and the packaging were saying the same thing and saying the right thing to people that were seeking a product like this. And that's when I started to sell out.

• 42:33Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Like I would make product and the next day it was gone. And it was thrilling, yet daunting. Because it was like, it's not like I was on Oprah. Or like, there wasn't a moment. It was just all of a sudden, something started to click. And that informed a very big change, where I had to go from this very small facility that I had kind of organically expanded into, like unit by unit, because it was in an eight-unit complex. And I was in four of the eight units by, you know, right around this is happening. And so I had to do the unthinkable. I had to go find my next new facility and find my next home so I could make more, but still make it the right way.

• 43:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  And I was scared of the get-wallat effect, that I was now gonna, something bad was gonna happen.

• 43:16Rick Rubin?

  But you were in control of it.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I was very conscientious of what the guardrails needed to be, so I didn't burn the house down.

• 43:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, as long as you stayed pure, it would be pure. As big as it got, it's okay.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, as long as you don't deviate from your primary path, I've learned, it keeps you honest.

• 43:32Rick Rubin?

  Last time we discussed flavors, you were up to five flavors.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:36Rick Rubin?

  Has it changed since then?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, we know. I mean, we've, at some point, we got too crazy. I think we had like over thirty flavors.

• 43:42Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is a great thing because we technically have something for everyone. But as, you know, consumer profile and flavor palettes change, we've like expanded and contracted certain flavors. Like we had, which is still one of my favorite flavors, like a carrot turmeric, which was so good. But then carrot became synonymous with sugar.

• 43:59Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  So people were like, I won't drink that anymore. So we had to kind of, you know, weave and Bob with trends. And sometimes, you know, we had a product called Heartbeat, which was like fresh pressed beet juice with like rosemary. And I thought it was delicious, but then beet got dilified too because it was considered a high sugar.

• 44:18Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  So, you know, that's the sad part. I think there are times now where the things that are sincerely healthy don't register with people that way. And you sometimes just have to accept it.

• 44:30Rick Rubin?

  What's the current menu?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Well, the current menu, on the synergy side, we're always looking for, again, functional ingredients that still impart a palatable or pleasant taste. So that can mean things like elderflower, elderberry, blue spirulina. Like when we did our 25th anniversary, I created a flavor called Sacred Life, and it was coconut water, a little bit of ginger, and blue spirulina. And it was in honor of this planet, right? The blue vibrancy of the blue spirulina in my mind was a reminder of what makes this planet so special, which is water in the ocean. You know, so we have products that still have some fruit juice in them, like blood orange or mango, because there's still a flavor preference for exotic fruits.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  But then, like, for example, we, for our 30th anniversary, we debuted a flavor called Wildflower, which was like ashwagandha and passion flower. So we're just always, I guess the short answer is we're always trying to just challenge ourselves and demonstrate to our fans and consumers that we're not a one-trick pony, that we always look to nature on what we can create. We want to make sure that it's, yes, tasty, but more importantly, it's nutritious.

• 45:39Rick Rubin?

  And is the ginger always there?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, the gingerade is still one of our top sellers. And they rival gingerade, which is my third flavor. So that's how like my luck runs in threes. And then right behind it, or sometimes above it, is Trilogy, which is lemon raspberry ginger.

• 45:54Rick Rubin?

  Oh, nice.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Which is also symbolic of three, so it's somewhat poetic.

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• 47:36Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about distribution. Once you got past going to one store and selling it, how did it expand?

• 47:42Speaker 01

  For the first like two, three years, I self-distributed. I had a delivery van. I would rather load it up myself and did that for a couple of years.

• 47:50Rick Rubin?

  Was it only available in Los Angeles?

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Only available in Los Angeles, yeah.

• 47:53Rick Rubin?

  For how many years?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  I'd say two, three years.

• 47:55Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't until like 1999, where Whole Foods had just acquired Mrs. Gooch's and they kind of rang my phone and said, hey, you know, people are coming in. They're asking for this product. We would like to put it under review.

• 48:11Rick Rubin?

  Much better when they come to you instead of you going to them begging.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Oh my God, yeah. Those were the high moments, right? When someone that you've been wanting to get in actually calls you and says, yeah, the door is open. So they they reached out to me and said, yeah, we would like to consider this product. And so then I went through the process. And then they said, yes, we would like to bring it in. But under one condition, you sell it to our distributor.

• 48:35Rick Rubin?

  What does that even mean?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  So the third party distributor is basically called a middleman, right? Where you ship your product to them. They order it from you based on demand. They put it in their warehouse, which can be dry refrigerator frozen typically. And then stores like Whole Foods order from them, but they'll order vitamins, milk, juice, like basically eighty to ninety percent of what's in their store. And the benefit is is they have a concentrated, systematized delivery program.

• 49:06Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  That can be almost daily. It's really efficient for the store. And so it's very simplified. And so it shocked me initially in two ways. One was like, I was like, wait, I'm gonna lose that touch? Because again, to me, putting the product on the shelf ourselves was like, was like essential experience, right? That's it's like tucking your baby in, so to speak. So like, losing that control really shook me. And then from a like a business standpoint, let's say I sold to Air One at two dollars and fifty cents a bottle, and they turn around and sell it for four fifty, right? Making it up. Now, if I'm using a distributor, I have to sell it to the distributor for like one dollar and fifty cents so that they can sell it to the store for two fifty and then the store

• 49:51Speaker 01

  can mark it up. And I was like, you're you're eating into what I need to like make this high quality product. So initially, I said, no. But then I wrestled with it and ultimately I was like, okay, let me see the positive in this. This will allow me to be an expert in making the product and I can delegate the distribution.

• 50:10Rick Rubin?

  Which is probably okay.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it allowed, I mean, allowed me to then proliferate with flavors and allowed me to be more concentrated on the operations. But it was hard. It's almost like. You know, I'm a young parent, so I use a lot of child analogies. It's just like, it's like that first day of dropping your kid off at school. Like, it's hard. You're used to being around them all the time. And now they're not there and they're crying and you're crying.

• 50:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  But you have to overcome it. It's a necessary experience.

• 50:35Rick Rubin?

  So, once that happened, where was it available?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  It was a big step for me, but still a small step, I think, by today's standards. So, it gave me access to all of California, Northern California specifically, which was huge for me. Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico. That was their distribution footprint. So, I could be in any store. I still had to approach the store, but I physically had now capabilities of getting my products to those stores. And that was an unlock for me.

• 51:01Rick Rubin?

  And how often would you deliver to the middleman?

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Once to twice a week.

• 51:06Rick Rubin?

  And tell me, when would you refrigerate? When you're making it, it's not refrigerated.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  No, it's actually in a warm environment because fermentation likes warmth.

• 51:13Rick Rubin?

  When you put it in the bottles, is that when it gets refrigerated?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yes, immediately.

• 51:16Rick Rubin?

  Right away. And then you keep it refrigerated until the person drinks it?

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:21Rick Rubin?

  How many other drinks are like that?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Right now, it's, we're a dying breed.

• 51:26Rick Rubin?

  Back then?

• 51:27Speaker 01

  When I started, it was juice, milk.

• 51:30Rick Rubin?

  Fresh juice.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's really it, right? Everything else was Sobe, Snapple, you know, teas, things of that nature. And then, when things really started to peak in the health and wellness space, let's say it was by around 2012 to like 2016 was like the peak. You had cold brew coffee. You had cold pressed juice.

• 51:53Rick Rubin?

  Does cold brew coffee have to be refrigerated?

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:56Rick Rubin?

  I didn't know that.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it has no preservatives.

• 51:58Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  But all that stuff went away. Like, even all the fresh pressed juice companies, like, even though, yes, they still have to be kept refrigerated, but everything kind of shrank. And then everything somewhat moved to like ambient, which is a clever way of saying non-refrigerated.

• 52:12Rick Rubin?

  I never heard the expression used for beverage.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and ambient beverage means it requires no refrigeration.

• 52:18Rick Rubin?

  But that means it has preservatives.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  It has preservatives, or it's been killed.

• 52:22Rick Rubin?

  Right.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Killed is the thing that, honestly, Rick, if there's just one thing that I just hope and pray people still recognize when they're on their, call it their health and wellness journey, is do not underestimate the importance of living versus dead. That's why, like, early on, it just came to me. It wasn't like a cute slogan, but my first slogan was "living food for the living body." Like, if you want to have vitality, if you want to live long and thrive. Ask yourself, what are you putting into your body to support that that objective or that journey? That's my greatest fear right now is that people are overlooking how the product's made in exchange for like, again, how much sugar's in it. Convenience.

• 53:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's wild.

• 53:06Rick Rubin?

  So after that first distributor, what was the next step in terms of distribution?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  So the next step was now West Coast. So at the time, Whole Foods was still a much, a very, very small company, but they were the premier health and wellness natural food store. So I used them as kind of a, almost like a, a direction of where I should go next. And I'd marry that with what I believe was it was the demographics and psychographics of the country, right? So I knew like, you know, West Coast typically is a little bit more advanced when it comes to health and wellness because I think we have more nature. So that's why like the Pacific Northwest immediately became like, I need to go there, the Rockies. And so I basically went to the, I went to the Rockies first and sold to Whole Foods

• 53:57Speaker 01

  there and other natural food stores.

• 53:59Rick Rubin?

  Anywhere granola was popular.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, where the co-ops were.

• 54:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  I mean, the co-ops, as you know, were like, those are the diehard stores. They were like the early days of Arowan.

• 54:07Rick Rubin?

  Oh.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  So that's what I did. I just regionally grew, but then at a certain point, I started to sell out to the point where I couldn't make enough. And so like, I had to pause on any kind of growth. And then that's why I had to get to that bigger facility. And once I did, by 2005, which was 10 years from the day I started, that's when I went nationwide.

• 54:27Rick Rubin?

  Was it successful nationwide right away?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  It was to a certain degree because I think what happened is because it was selling out on the West Coast, you know, as people are bi-coastal, they would discover it, fall in love with it, and then want to get it. So I had this like built up demand.

• 54:44Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Because there wasn't social media, thank God.

• 54:47Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  At the time, it was like the best kept secret. Nobody knew what I was doing. Coke didn't know, Pepsi didn't know, PE firms didn't know, VC firms didn't know, like, it was wild.

• 55:00Rick Rubin?

  It was totally mom and pop independent.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was totally underground.

• 55:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  And...

• 55:06Rick Rubin?

  And it was, you would say, for 10 years?

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Well, actually, it's funny. I gave birth to my own competition. And it was because... Luckily, I was reluctant to cut corners, right? So when I started to have capacity challenges, yet again, the peanut gallery came into my life and was like, hey, so just dilute it. Just like make more, like shorten the fermentation, add more water, like, come on. And I was like, guys, like, if my consumer's not stupid, and I'm not stupid, like, they'll notice a difference and they'll stop buying it. So the unfortunate outcome of not doing those, taking that advice, was the shelves were empty. And so little by little, and I know this because now some of my competition has straight up set it on the record. It's like, I was buying GT's brand. I fell in love with it. I noticed they were having supply issues.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  I decided to make my own and sell it. So that's when you started to see, sometimes regional, but even sometimes more than regional competition.

• 56:00Rick Rubin?

  Do you remember the first time you saw any competitive item?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:04Rick Rubin?

  What was it?

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Well, there was two, and they were on different sides of the spectrum. There was one called Kombucha Wonder Drink, and it was based in the Pacific Northwest. It was founded by a guy who I respect named Steve Lee. He was one of the co-founders of Stash Tea. And because he was a tea guy, kombucha felt right for him. His packaging was beautiful. His marketing was beautiful. But candidly, the mistake he made is he decided to pasteurize it. And I think mass produce it. So it just, it was missing a soul. And as much as-

• 56:36Rick Rubin?

  And it wasn't alive.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  And it wasn't alive.

• 56:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  So that debuted, and I wasn't even worried about that product. I was like, yeah, maybe some people will buy it, but I'm not threatened by it.

• 56:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, if they buy it, it's because they don't know that it's dead.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And then the other competitor that actually was somewhat of a formidable competitor back then was called High Country Kombucha, and they were based in the Rockies. And because I think of their background, they got kombucha. They didn't make, I say this lovingly, they didn't make the best quality, but they made real stuff. And that started to compete with me. And especially during the times where I was selling out and I couldn't restock, that gave them a big boost.

• 57:13Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  So, but again, as they say, what, high tides raise all boats? So I was fine with it.

• 57:20Rick Rubin?

  And then over time, have there been more perishable drinks that have to be refrigerated now?

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Well, in our world, so in our call it the GT's Living Foods portfolio, everything we make has to be kept refrigerated. I mean, that's, I mean, that's why we put Living Foods in the name of the company.

• 57:35Rick Rubin?

  What was the first thing you made that was not kombucha based?

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Alive.

• 57:39Rick Rubin?

  And what is that?

• 57:40Speaker 01

  So everything I make, Rick, is, for better or for worse, inspired by like a personal experience, right? So kombucha, my mom, right? Kombucha helped my mom with her breast cancer. And then ironically, in like 2016, I had a loved one that was suffering from their own illness. And friends and people I respect came into the fold with adaptogenic mushrooms. You know, reishi, chaga, turkey tail, cordyceps, things of that nature. And unfortunately, this individual is too far gone, so they weren't able to really benefit, you know, long term. But they saw short term benefits and then I started to consume it and I saw the benefits too. And just like, you know, the early nineties of making kombucha, I was just like, there's nothing like this out there. Like, that's a problem.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  So I developed a product called Alive. And it was this, we called it, I mean, it's gone through so many different iterations, but it's still around today and it's our number two brand. And it was called an adaptogenic tea. And we would take the fruiting body medicinal mushrooms of reishi, chaga and turkey tail. We'd brew them for nine hours and extract all the nutrients and antioxidants and then bottle it. But we use raw apple cider vinegar to still consider it living. And we used like herbs and other teas to kind of enhance it. And it, you know, like anything that's brand new and people aren't used to it, you have your ups and downs, that early adoption phase. But now it's, like I said, it's our second bestselling product.

• 59:03Rick Rubin?

  Wow, cool.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:04Rick Rubin?

  And then altogether, how many different things are you making now?

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. So started with Synergy, then Alive, which is our mushroom.

• 59:14Rick Rubin?

  And there's only one flavor of Alive or more?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  No, now Alive has five. So we have a root beer, a cola, a lemon lime, a ginger turmeric and a matcha cream soda. And then later this year, we're going to do a lavender mint and a raspberry lychee.

• 59:29Rick Rubin?

  What gives them that flavor?

• 59:31Speaker 01

  A little bit of juice. They are sweetened with stevia. Because again, that's because it's not fermented. We're able to influence the sugar content more than when it's fermentable. So it has, you know, a lighter flavor. It's still kind of bitey because we still use like real ingredients. And we're repositioning it right now because we're learning more and more about the mushrooms. They're really good for cognitive health, for homeostasis and balance. And I didn't know it at the time when I created Alive. But you might relate to this. Like, a lot of us are just overwhelmed, right? Like, the buzzing and beeping of life and our devices and the world around us. Like, we do need something to kind of round the edges. And so these medicinal mushrooms help that. So we're slowly repositioning Alive as like a mood and mind beverage.

• 1:00:16Rick Rubin?

  Nice.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  So then after that came, which is a little bit of a curve ball, is called Coco Yo, which is a raw, young Thai coconut yogurt. That is one of the hardest products we make because it's literally just raw coconut meat and raw coconut water that we ferment, and that's it. Like, we don't have any fillers.

• 1:00:36Rick Rubin?

  So it's a yogurt, you eat it with a spoon?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's our first and only spoonable product.

• 1:00:41Rick Rubin?

  What's the package look like?

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  It's in a glass jar. It's eight ounces and it sells for like, depending where you shop, anywhere from seven to nine dollars.

• 1:00:49Rick Rubin?

  So it's like a vegan yogurt substitute, would you say?

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  But high probiotic content, like the highest that you can find for the most part. And just super boutique, right? It tastes like something that you would make at home, which is, you know, a standard that I still emulate.

• 1:01:05Rick Rubin?

  And do people eat it by itself or do they put it in things?

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Both. You can almost use it as like an acai bowl base or in smoothies or a straight out of the jar. So there's really no wrong way.

• 1:01:16Rick Rubin?

  How would you describe the taste?

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Depends on the flavor. Like, the pure, which is literally its name, like, no flavor, no stevia even. It's just coconut water, coconut meat, fermented. It tastes just like a tangy coconut plain yogurt, but really pure. And then with the other flavors, we decided to use stevia and like whether it's vanilla extract for vanilla or cacao for the cacao. We keep it pretty simple, but I would say the taste is like a A healthy, it almost feels like a healthy dessert. Because it's very satiating because the young coconut has body to it, has healthy fats. But it's delicate because of the young Thai coconut meat. So it's really nice. I love it.

• 1:02:01Rick Rubin?

  And it's alive.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  And it's alive, yeah.

• 1:02:03Rick Rubin?

  And it's refrigerated as well.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's almost too alive sometimes. I mean, we'll get calls from like people who open it, it's like exploded on them.

• 1:02:10Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I've had that happen with kombucha too. There were times where they would.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  It just bursts on you.

• 1:02:15Rick Rubin?

  Pop.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's an example of like nature's in control. Like, we're just holding her hand, we're not in the driver's seat.

• 1:02:23Rick Rubin?

  The manufacturing has only changed in terms of scale.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, not in process.

• 1:02:30Rick Rubin?

  The process is the same.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Rick Rubin?

  Can it exist outside of the US?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  It can with a version of two potential prices, right? So one is the literal price where, I mean, we're based in California. So we ship to Canada and we ship a little bit to the UK. So Canada is at a premium because first of all, the currency exchange, but also the distance. So freight and stuff causes the retail price to be high. The UK can take six weeks to get there. So if you have a three-month shelf life, you have six weeks to sell it. Also, what's happening is, you know, all the costs that it takes to get it there is probably $7 a bottle. So that's the cost curse. The other cost is if you really want to make it the right way, meaning like have it affordable for people in that region, you really need a facility in that area.

• 1:03:17Rick Rubin?

  Have you considered that?

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  I have, yeah. I mean, I want to, again, learn from the Idwala lesson that I still keep to heart almost daily is don't grow too fast.

• 1:03:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  So like, you know, obviously I have executives now with the company and they're always pushing for what's that next phase of growth. But I always remind them, but can we say confidently, have we mastered the US? Have we mastered the markets that we're currently in? And usually the answer is no, because master is such a high standard.

• 1:03:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  It keeps us focused. And so I do eventually want to be more in Europe. I have a home now in Portugal and I did that so much strategically where it's like, I could see Portugal being a good home, my next facility, whether I built it myself or I partnered with somebody. But there's a quality about Portugal that reminds me very much of California. So I think that could be interesting and I could easily kind of access the European market. So that's kind of further out in the future.

• 1:04:13Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever considered? Having a facility on the east coast as well.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  I have, but same thing is like, I ask myself, but what am I looking to accomplish? You know, if I'm looking to cut cost, okay, what's the price of that? Because, you know, I still, I'm in the office Monday through Thursday almost every week. I mean, I'm very still tethered to my company.

• 1:04:40Rick Rubin?

  Totally hands on.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Totally hands on, to almost to a fault, to be honest. I love what I do and I do it for a reason and I don't want that reason to change. And as much as I love the people I work with, you know, this is my baby. So they'll never be able to fully understand what it feels to create something and the connection and pride and passion and protectiveness I have over it. So like, because we reproduce Monday through Friday, typically, like, I need to taste test. Like, I want to be there. And if I'm not there for too long, like, I feel estranged and it feels like that's the beginning of losing control.

• 1:05:17Rick Rubin?

  So for 30 years, you've been taste testing?

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:19Rick Rubin?

  All of it?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, even this current chapter that I'm in, because of my kids mostly, where, you know, I'll take a Friday off or I'll work from home on Friday, like, I still wrestle with that because I'm not used to not tasting every day.

• 1:05:34Rick Rubin?

  You must have a very fine palate for it after all these years.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Rick Rubin?

  How different is it from batch to batch?

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  It's like, again, using the analogy of a farm or a plant growing from the earth, like, you could have an orange tree, but oranges from different sides of the tree

• 1:05:49Rick Rubin?

  Taste different.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Taste different. Kombucha is no different. You can have the same base, like, we brew the tea in a large vat, right? So that's where we can scale, but when we go to ferment, it's small batches, right? So even though they're all on the same base, they have different qualities, whether they have their different cultures or the heat or humidity or the way the air exchanges in the room is different. Each batch is different. So my team tastes us every small batch, grades them and then blends them to create a standardized finished base. But even with that process, you'll sometimes see it's maybe a little bit more tangy or a little bit more mild or a little more carbonated or a little bit less carbonated. And then you also have the ingredients that we use post fermentation, right at the time

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  of bottling, like, you know, sometimes the ginger will be out of season or something weird will happen with that apple juice and you, you want to really study it.

• 1:06:45Rick Rubin?

  But I guess in some ways, the fact that it's a little different from batch to batch also speaks to the realness of the food.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:52Rick Rubin?

  You know, if it's too similar, then it feels like it's machine-made.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  I agree. And we actually used that in the early days as a kind of a secret to our success. We would say, hey, like, this isn't sterilized, or standardized, or pasteurized. This is just straight from the earth. And just like anything, nature is perfectly imperfect. And so we would highlight and frame that for people, and people would really get it.

• 1:07:17Rick Rubin?

  So you think of it more like fruit and vegetables?

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  Exactly.

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• 1:09:40Rick Rubin?

  How would you say the market for the drink has changed over the years?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Well, first of all, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, like, health and wellness has been infiltrated. It really started to get infiltrated a lot in like around 2016 to 2018 because you started to see news hit where companies were selling. And they were selling for a large dollar amount, right? So the first notable kombucha brand to sell was a brand called Kavita. And they sold to Pepsi in 2016, and they sold for 200 million, which at the time was like, that could have been like 10 billion in people's minds. Like, that dollar figure was huge, and it rocked the health food industry and specifically the kombucha category.

• 1:10:25Rick Rubin?

  And how big of a brand was that?

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  I think at the time when they sold, they were probably at like, maybe 75 million in sales. But they, they really, I mean, their growth was remarkable. You can't take away the success that that brand had.

• 1:10:41Rick Rubin?

  Is theirs alive as well, or no?

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  It kind of did a little bit of a dance of like, live probiotics, and it used certain language. But at the end of the day, it was discovered it was pasteurized.

• 1:10:53Rick Rubin?

  Did it have to be refrigerated, or no?

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Well, so the jury's still out on that. Like, there are products, Rick, that are technically ambient, but they claim they need to be kept refrigerated.

• 1:11:04Rick Rubin?

  Well, pasteurized milk is still in the refrigerated section.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. But even more so in this, like, ready-to-drink beverage space, it's a little bit of a secret approach of how to get high-traffic store shelf placement and almost hijack certain categories. So like, even in the last couple of years, there's been brands that have said they need to be kept refrigerated. So they're immediately in my set.

• 1:11:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Which is a highly desirable set, because the store has only so much refrigeration space. So that's how they're able to kind of naturally appeal to a shopper that's maybe looking for a product like mine, because they think refrigerated means fresh, means pure. But a lot of these brands, if you look at the ingredients, you're like, what's in this that needs to be kept refrigerated?

• 1:11:48Rick Rubin?

  Have there been any complications along the way or unexpected difficulties that came up?

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, the biggest, candidly, was when the kombucha space, call it, was getting so popular because I was selling out and, you know, the category was growing even after, like, the 2008 Great Recession. Almost every industry was soft. But health and wellness was still growing. And within health and wellness, kombucha was like on fire. And so what happened is overnight, you had like five dozen brands.

• 1:12:21Rick Rubin?

  Really?

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, every day, there was an announcement of another kombucha brand. And it was, you know, it was thrilling to see because you're like, oh, it's part of a movement. But then you started to see, like, they were changing the narrative. They were going after other brands, some were pasteurized. So it just really started to confuse the conversation. And then 2010, a brand that had just started out on the East Coast was delivering their product unrefrigerated, probably for cost-cutting reasons. And it was starting to ferment more. And the bottles started, were like fizzing out on the shelf. And somebody saw it, and they called the health department. And the health department came in and just standard procedure, they grabbed the bottles and took them to their lab

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  and just paneled them to see if they were safe or anything like that. And what came out was a hit of alcohol. Above point five percent, which in this country, unlike the rest of the world, is the definition of non-alcoholic or alcoholic. It can be, you can be point oh four nine, but you can't be point five or point five one. And even though there's no difference physically, like one isn't like non-intoxicating, the other one is intoxicating. It's just a technicality.

• 1:13:33Rick Rubin?

  It's just a line arbitrary number.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And so now this revealed that this fermented tea may have alcohol in it. And so like overnight, there was like, stop the press, stop everything. We need to understand that. And every brand, including mine, was taken off the shelf.

• 1:13:54Rick Rubin?

  Wow, for how long?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Well, so what happened was initially they said, hey, we can't sell this anymore. It has alcohol. And I said, okay, guys, I put that on the label. Like it says, may contain alcohol because it's fermented. And I believe in transparency. I'm not, I understand alcohol is a stigma system for people. I, I want them to know that, but this is by no means alcoholic. Like you're going to try to drink this to get drunk? Believe you me, like something else is going to happen. You're going to be spending more time on the toilet.

• 1:14:20Rick Rubin?

  Before you get drunk.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. So I was like somewhat caught off guard with this like newfound conversation. But because now kombucha was so big and the players, Whole Foods specifically, were now publicly traded companies, like they had a lot at stake and they're like, no, we can't risk this. You need to reformulate. You need to find a way to suppress the ability for the ethanol, AKA alcohol, to rise to a certain level.

• 1:14:46Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever tested alcohol levels before that?

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  We did, yeah. And they were low, but what happens is, is like, we can't control what people do. So if somebody buys a bottle from the refrigerator or a store even takes a delivery and doesn't put it in the refrigerator right away, you know, an hour or two of being out, yes, you, you kind of awaken the fermentation and depending on the fruit juice that's being used, nature will start to take off. So yes, that was the challenge. It was this conversation about like, okay, but what if there is alcohol? Are people going to now believe that this is, you know, bootleg product, black market product, potentially even unhealthy product? Because alcohol is not healthy. And so that was the really strong, most existential moment.

• 1:15:29Rick Rubin?

  When was this?

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  It was 2010. It was June, like 15th, 2010, when I got the phone call of like, hey,

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Because in May, there was the whispers of like, hey, we're hearing there's like alcohol concerns in kombucha. And that's why I said, we test, like, we're good. So like, okay. And then they came back and they're like, no, we're not comfortable with what we're hearing. So effective tomorrow, we're taking all your products off the shelf. And it was hard. But you know what helped me navigate that is what I kind of said earlier is I anchored myself in, hey, if everything ends today.

• 1:16:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  I'm okay with it because what I've been able to do is beyond what I ever dreamt. So I'm not a failure. This isn't a bad thing. Maybe this is just the conclusion of this chapter.

• 1:16:17Rick Rubin?

  So what happened? How did it get resolved?

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Well, so initially I was like, this is it. I'm being told that I need to change the way I make my product. I don't agree. I think I'm going to be making a substandard product. Not going to do it. And so that was like month one. Month one, I just started to make peace with the fact that this is it. This is the end and I'm okay with it. But what changed my point of view is some of the other brands on the shelf rushed back to the shelf with diluted dumbed down product. And that bothered me because I said, wait, I'm not saying I'm the kombucha godfather, but I do feel that I have a responsibility.

• 1:16:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  And I cannot allow only that to be on the shelf. So it kind of changed my, my perspective. I was like, okay, yes, I want to still be a purist, but I'm going to find a purist with like, not with a compromise, but a purist positioning that still is now navigating this new kind of criteria that I must meet. And that's actually when I shortened the shelf life because my kombucha used to be six to nine months.

• 1:17:21Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  But what was the issue with this conversation of ethanol wasn't what I was doing. It was what was happening afterwards.

• 1:17:28Rick Rubin?

  Over time.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  So one of the ideas I had in addition to slightly modifying the fermentation approach was, hey, if I can treat this like a fresh pressed juice. Then I'm going to limit or reduce what could potentially happen downstream in the market. So what I did is I immediately, I think I I launched with a 60 day shelf life. And I told every retailer, I said, this is our new positioning to remind you that this is raw.

• 1:17:55Rick Rubin?

  So it was two months down from what could be as long as nine months.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Rick Rubin?

  Big difference.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  There's a huge difference.

• 1:18:02Rick Rubin?

  In reality, how long were your things on the shelves typically?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  That was the interesting part, not that long.

• 1:18:10Rick Rubin?

  Probably, it seems like.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  And so that's why I was comfortable. I was like, hey.

• 1:18:13Rick Rubin?

  Probably wouldn't change things so much.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  It didn't.

• 1:18:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  For the next like five years, Rick, the short shelf life did nothing. In fact, it actually gave us the ability to use ingredients that we couldn't use before, like chia seeds. Right? We were one of the first companies to do a drinkable whole chia drink.

• 1:18:29Rick Rubin?

  After Boindurun came out?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so and chia is such a fascinating ingredient.

• 1:18:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  But it's it's volatile because once it hydrates, the cellulose becomes very unstable. And so we sold those, I think, with like a 45 day shelf life. And it was remarkable and we got a lot of.

• 1:18:45Rick Rubin?

  And is it 45 days from?

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Bottling.

• 1:18:48Rick Rubin?

  From bottling?

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, from bottling.

• 1:18:51Rick Rubin?

  And from bottling, how long does it take to get to a store typically?

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Well, to get to a distributor, depending on what their inventory is, right, which we don't influence. It can be anywhere from one day to five days to get to a distributor. So obviously, like a distributor on the East Coast takes longer. And then it'll probably take another five days to get on the shelf. So call it 10 end to end, which is still pretty good.

• 1:19:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  You know, we use the same distributors that like yogurt uses. So they're familiar with the cold chain kind of requirements as well as the fast turn. So it didn't hurt us back then. Now it hurts us because, as I mentioned, people are now being more programmed for products that don't have a short shelf life or better yet, don't even have a shelf life.

• 1:19:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  So we're noticing on the shelf.

• 1:19:33Rick Rubin?

  Those aren't your customers.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  They're either not our customers.

• 1:19:36Rick Rubin?

  That's the reality.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. But it but it's influencing the way stores behave.

• 1:19:41Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  Because back in the day, like when I was sharing the shelf with Edwala, you had to rotate. You had to make sure that what was in the back comes to the front and you stock from behind. I'll walk into a store and they're just pushing bottles. So you're you're moving fresh product to the back. So what we're now seeing, like I buy my product periodically at the stores. I'm seeing it sometimes up to its expiration date or sometimes past its expiration date. And that just crushes me because I'm like, well, then my fans, my consumers, whatever you want to call them, they're not getting the best product. So I'm trying to navigate that. So it's a work in progress.

• 1:20:14Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever tested how much sugar is in the drinks?

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:18Rick Rubin?

  After the process?

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Rick Rubin?

  How much is it? Is it negligible or no?

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Well, the first thing that is important to know in this wonderful conversation of sugar is that the first thing that kombucha does, regardless of what form of sugar you're using, so whether it's cane sugar, honey, fruit juice, what have you, it breaks it down. So it starts separating the fructose from the sucrose, from the glucose, and it starts modifying the molecular structure of now this simple carbohydrate. So that's like the first thing that happens. So it's already kind of been transformed, so to speak. And then by the end of the fermentation, at least our fermentation, because we still want it to be palatable and we don't want it to taste like, you know, like a shot of vinegar. It ranges from like, I'd say 10 to 12 grams of sugar for a 16 ounce bottle,

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  which is still relatively low. In today's market, it's considered high because everybody wants single digit at best. But it's still relatively low when you think about it.

• 1:21:15Rick Rubin?

  Are there other obscure health drinks that are less popular that you're interested in?

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Like Water Kiefer is fascinating to me. Water Kiefer in many ways is like a younger sister to kombucha. So kombucha, you know, dates back to 221 B.C., when it was first recorded being consumed, which is a long time ago.

• 1:21:35Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  Water Kiefer, on the other hand, is like the 1800s. And it was discovered in the desert. And the kiefer culture, AKA tipicos, was growing on the pad of a prickly pear cactus. And somehow someone got the bright idea to put it in like a sweetened base, and it ferments and reproduces. So very similar to kombucha. But what's important about it It's unlike kombucha that has a little bit more of like a, it's called an acido bacter ferment. So basically like a vinegar ferment. So that's why it's sour and tangy and all of that. The Water Kiefer has a lacto ferment, not lactose. It's not dairy based, but it has a different kind of chemistry of living cultures.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  And the end product is not sour. It's maybe a little dry, but it's not sour. And it's really, in many ways, it's like nature's natural soda. It's naturally effervescent. It's not very sweet. It doesn't have any tea. So people who are maybe adverse to tea, whether it's because of caffeine or flavor, what have you, it doesn't have any of that. It's just literally a fermented sweet water. Unlike kombucha that you can do honey and fruit, Water Kiefer primarily thrives on a cane sugar base. But that to me has been fascinating and we debuted that a couple of years ago. And it's doing really well because in my mind, it's hopefully a response to people who think they're doing the right thing by buying these sodas

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  or buying these low sugar products that are really just mass produced snake oils. And it's giving them an option of like, yeah, I understand you want a flavor profile. You maybe have, you know, a macronutrient target and maybe that kombucha can't satisfy it. But I still want to give you something authentic. So we're excited about our Water Kiefer. It's called Agua de Kefir. It's a little bit of a nod to, I'm a quarter Mexican. It's a little bit of a nod to my background as well.

• 1:23:25Rick Rubin?

  And it's alive as well.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yeah.

• 1:23:28Rick Rubin?

  What's the shelf life on that?

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  It's longer than kombucha. I think we coat it with, I think, four months, maybe five.

• 1:23:36Rick Rubin?

  Any other difficulties with either manufacturing or distributing because it's a perishable item?

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. What's getting harder and harder is freight, you know, but like the amount of trucks and freight companies that are available these days, especially after the ups and downs of the economy in the last five years. It's becoming harder and harder to ship cold. And so therefore the costs are going up. The availability is not what it used to be.

• 1:24:00Rick Rubin?

  Has your business been fairly consistent sales wise over the years?

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  I would say for the most part, so I would say from year one to maybe 2019, it was uncontrollable growth, like double-digit growth without any effort, with virtually no marketing. And the reason why I believe that was is I think, well, definitely the market was different. But in addition to that, we were speaking the right language to people who were looking to be spoken to, if that makes sense. But then I think as the health and wellness craze took off and the Kavita brand sold, as I mentioned, just the chemistry and dynamics of everything started to shift. And by 2020, of course, pandemic year as well, is when we first started to see a soft year. And since then, it's been kind of up and down.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  And we're not alone, like whether it's our category, or even Whole Foods, or even other players in our industry, like it's not as easy these days.

• 1:24:57Rick Rubin?

  Are less people going to supermarkets to shop and are more people just ordering stuff from Amazon?

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's the hardest, Rick, because like I sometimes like to go back to my origins, right? I think it's just who I am. And one of my origin beginnings was sampling at the stores. So from time to time, I actually like to go back into a Whole Foods or some other store and sample my stuff and like interact with people and like visibly see and connect with them and see how they resonate with what I'm offering them, how I'm framing it. And the last time I did it was about a year ago and I noticed that like, first of all, like 80% of people would walk up and they'd be having their phone in front of them and like kind of talking to me, but also like preoccupied.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, I'm not, don't have your undivided attention. So that's the first thing. Second thing is half of those individuals were like Instacart and DoorDash and Amazon Prime shoppers. So I'm not even talking to the actual person who's shopping. I'm talking to like their avatar.

• 1:26:05Rick Rubin?

  Shopping.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then.

• 1:26:08Rick Rubin?

  That's interesting.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:09Rick Rubin?

  That's a new thing.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  It's a new thing. And then on top of that, if I'm lucky and I am talking to somebody that's at least giving me a good amount of their attention and they're the actual shopper, I would notice I'd tell this beautiful story of like what kombucha is, why it's special, what's in it. And then they would look at me and eight out of 10 times, Rick, would be like, "How much sugar's in it?" And I'm like, "Really? I just poured my heart and soul out to you and that's your first question?"

• 1:26:38Rick Rubin?

  No, I understand. I was that guy.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're all that at a certain point. But it's just remarkable, but how much more of that is coming into play? So I think that's what we're searching for right now is, how can we breathe new life into things like kombucha? Is it technology and our obsession with instant gratification? I believe, Rick, has allowed us to a little bit of lose our way. We have to kind of go back to like the fundamental principles and remind ourselves that, yes, it's important to have dynamic thinking and dynamic behaviors and all of that, but don't ignore like the essentials.

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