114: Why You Shouldn't Settle In Love And Relationships With Dené Logan

Dené Logan joins Sabrina in a thought-provoking conversation about what settling is and what it can look like in relationships. They talk about how important it is to understand ourselves as souls when choosing partners. Dené challenges the common belief that being uncoupled is the worst outcome, arguing instead that relationships should add to our lives and not be driven by societal conditioning. Sabrina and Dené delve into the energies of masculinity and femininity, emphasizing that these are energies, not rigid identities, and that real connection comes from understanding and humanizing one another. Dené stresses that relationships need inspiration, respect, and a shared vision to thrive, and Sabrina adds that we shouldn't expect to change someone into our ideal partner. They both highlight the need for a community-based approach to relationships, where the pressure to stay partnered is lessened, allowing for a healthier, more balanced connection. Through their insights, Dené and Sabrina encourage listeners to reflect on whether they are truly showing up in their relationships or merely outsourcing our power to make themselves more comfortable. Get Dené's book, "Sovereign Love" Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hi babes, welcome to the end of the year. I can't believe it, but I'm so excited because today we have a very special guest. We have Ms. Danae Logan. I'm obsessed with her. She is a marriage and family therapist. She's a couples therapist, but she's fucking amazing. And today we talk about why settling is not very good. The problem with settling and why comfortable love just isn't enough. And we start talking about the masculine feminine and like what that actually means, not the clickbait bullshit of feminine means this and masculine means this. Like we're cutting all that noise. And so I'm excited. Guys, as always, thank you, thank you so much for everyone who writes and reviews the show, means the world. Please, if you think it's worth five stars, please leave it, leave a review.

• 0:46Sabrina Zohar?

  You can leave a comment. Let us know what you think. You could DM me if it's going to be something negative and you don't want to leave it publicly. I'm always open, but please, guys, just remember, use kindness in the words that we use because we are creating a community and that's what we're here for. Guys, if you need anything, as always, link in show notes. It has everything you could possibly need, free guides, not free courses, free guides. There are the three courses that are all out right now. Nervous System Breakup Foundation. You could work one-on-one, ask a question, or just listen to the podcast. Whatever you guys need, it is all there. So babies, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

• 1:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Danae, welcome to the show.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Sabrina, thank you. I'm so excited.

• 1:33Sabrina Zohar?

  I am beyond excited, first of all, to have you in studio because it's always so fun.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Such a gift. I feel like I haven't been down in your neck of the woods in such a long time and I was just really excited to come and give you a hug in person. And this is so much fun. Thanks for having me.

• 1:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course, I'm so excited because today we're going to talk about something I think is so important that I get every single day of, well, two aspects because you threw a good whammy my way that we're going to hit on. But two aspects being kind of the settling conversation, right? Like around this settling down, am I settling? Do I, you know, it's so hard in the dating and even when you're in a relationship, right? To really be able to assess and really the masculine feminine and all those polarities. So I'm so excited, but before we even fucking dive in, could you please share a little bit more about you and your amazing book and just who are you so our audience can get a little bit more acclimated?

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Thanks, Sabrina. Well, I'm Danae Logan and I'm a marriage and family therapist based in Los Angeles, but these days I feel like more a group facilitator. I facilitate retreats throughout the year for all the people. I was gonna say mostly women, but I feel like it's expanding. People are coming a little bit more. The personal development sphere is just expanding. And I'm an author now, which feels exciting to say. And I wrote a book based on, I don't know, I'm primarily a couples therapist. So there are so many things about the dynamics I was seeing playing out with the couples that I saw that I was like, God, there's so many ways my clinical training and the, just the way the relationship sphere is talking about

• 3:05Speaker 01

  these things in general, I feel like we're missing something that I started to like connect the dots on some of the ways that we're not talking about it that I think as we're evolving as a human species, we need to be. And I come from a background in depth psychology, which, you know, I always say depth because people are like, depth psychology? No, I said depth. Yeah, so it's a lot of times referred to as the psychology of the soul, but it's rooted in a lot of Jungian psychology, which is archetypal psychology myths, like all of these, you know, dreamworks sometimes, but really the soul work and how do we explore what it is to do this thing called life with the awareness that we are souls. And I feel like in the

• 3:50Speaker 01

  relationship sphere, that was not something that I ever heard people talking about or touching on. And in terms of the book that we were talking about, so Carl Jung was sort of the first person in terms of psychology to really name that we all have both masculine and feminine energetics within us and they're not gendered. So everybody has both. And I think, you know, you and I were talking about it's, there's a lot of ways that people are talking about these energetics that are so alive and I think really important to talk about, but we're missing a lot of what I mean, at least when I'm talking about them.

• 4:21Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm curious, just because I'm curious for me to know, while you were studying about like the depth psychology, was there anything, especially when you were seeing in relationships, that you started to say like, holy shit, like, what are the conversations that we're not having as you've been doing your own research, your own studies, your own, you know, your programs and things like that? Like, what did you see as a disconnect? Because I'm genuinely curious.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, in addition to the soul work around depth psychology, I was a yoga teacher for many years. So I've always been a spiritual seeker. I've always really been curious around what we're doing in these bodies. Like, from the time I was a child, I was always like, what happens when we die? And so I've always been fascinated by spiritual teachers and ways that we go about attempting to make meaning and find peace in our skin. Before I became a therapist, I worked in addiction recovery for a really long time. And so there were all of these elements that I started drawing from in terms of what soul work is and how we find peace in our skin. That is a very different conversation than clinical psychology was having around relationships. Meaning, if we understand

• 5:26Speaker 01

  that we're souls, and I believe that, you know, this is a life school, and we come here for our soul's curriculum and all of the lessons and things that we're meant to understand, if we don't take that into consideration when we're sharing our life with someone, a lot of times, we're just attempting to make ourselves as comfortable as possible all the time. What I started to see when I was working with couples is, I was like, oh, God, in the same way that when I worked in addiction recovery, there becomes a substance or a thing that we are attempting to regulate our internal world, our nervous system through, people are doing that in relationships. And not only are we doing it, and nobody's really talking about it, there's a ton of ways that clinical psychology is sort of reinforcing that, right? That your power resides outside of you, and that if I can just get this person

• 6:10Speaker 01

  to comply with who I believe I need them to be in this moment, then I'll be able to exhale. But what if they can't? What if they don't have the capacity to? What if this person leaves you? All of these different variables. And so. I started to say like, there's a way that we're really making another person our higher power without really taking into consideration that each of us has specific lessons that we are meant to learn in this lifetime. And when it's aligned and we can support one another in that sole mission, I think it's beautiful. And partnerships are such an enriching aspect of our life. But I think there's a lot of ways we're not really conditioned to take those things into consideration, you know?

• 6:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, 100%. We had David Guim. He's a, love David. I knew you. I was like, oh yeah, because he's fantastic. And he was talking about the light bulb, right? Of like, if I'm operating in a 60 watt light bulb, I'm not going to be able to plug into a 3,000 watt light bulb, right? And I think, because that kind of brings us on to, look perfectly solid, into this entire conversation of like, okay, settling, right? Because I'm sure, how many times we hear it, how many times we go through it. And I would love to understand your perspective on like, what does it actually mean to settle, right? And just kind of defining that difference in like compromise, like, let's get into it.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's get into it, right? Like, so here's the thing. I come from a little bit of a different baseline than most couples therapists, where I'm actually, as a couples therapist, not interested in keeping your relationship intact at all costs, which is a little bit of a different perspective. I was married for 11 and a half years. And so there were so many things that when my marriage changed form, and I often say changed form, because, you know, my kiddo's dad is still one of my best friends in the world. And our relationship needed to change. We started out really young, and both of us were expanding in different ways. But I think we're really conditioned to believe that when a marriage, our relationship ends, there's a failure, and that we should feel devastated.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  And like, you know, our world is ending. And that just wasn't our truth. And so I realized that there's a way that we're holding all of these relationship dynamics, as though like, the worst thing we can possibly be is not partnered. And it's impacting how we show up in partnerships, right? And so I started to get super curious, Serena, and I was like, let's go back a little bit to like where this originated and the origin points certainly of patriarchy and that there are patriarchal structures where for our survival, especially as women, we needed to be in these nuclear family structures. And if we weren't, there were very real consequences, right? Like, it was sort of very much women were property

• 8:49Speaker 01

  in the same way that, you know, people were enslaved, women were sort of property. You got to plot a land, you got to wife, like all of these things. And if you didn't have that, you wouldn't be safe. You wouldn't be sort of held within the container in a safe way. But also, you could be harmed. You could be burned alive sometimes. And nobody talks about the history of like burning witches was actually women who were widowed, who wouldn't get remarried, or women who just refused to get married. Right? And so those are sort of the origin points of how these relationship structures started. But we've never had a reckoning with it. Right? And I realized there's all these multi-generational pain points that nobody talks about. And if you've ever seen that show, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel? Love it. Yeah. So funny, right? But I was watching that show one day, and I think it's like

• 9:32Speaker 01

  in the early episodes. And she, I can't remember the character's name, but she goes to bed, or her husband goes to bed, she goes to bed next to him, and she like waits until he's asleep. And then she gets up the minute she realizes he's fully asleep, and she goes and puts her rollers in, puts the cream on her face, gets ready for bed, and then sets an alarm to go back to sleep, and then wakes up before he wakes up so she can take all the stuff off, put on her full face, and lay down next to her husband and pretend that she's been, you know, asleep next to him, just as beautiful as she went to bed. Right? And, you know, we sort of laugh at that. But there's so much about what we were conditioned to believe by our mothers, that your work is to make yourself a beautiful object. That is how you will keep yourself safe. Right? And that's all fine, except

• 10:17Speaker 01

  that it doesn't lead to a lot of intimacy, even that dynamic within the bed between these two people. Right? And we've never really had a reckoning around that. And as I started to look at some of the research that's been done, and we're still drawing from, in terms of these couples therapy orientated A lot of it was done in the 70s, right? And that was where it sort of originated. And women couldn't even have their own bank accounts in the 70s, right? And so if my survival depends on this relationship staying intact, how honest am I really being about what is relational fulfillment? And there's so much messaging that all of us got, certainly from our mother's generation, but also from our peers and the ways that we're socialized around gender that really leads to a lack of intimacy. So all of this to say, I think the reasons why we settle

• 11:02Speaker 01

  are because so much of what we've been conditioned to believe, like as early as we start thinking about relationships, is the worst thing you can be is not in a partnership, right? And that ends up having a lot of impact on how we feel in our relationship dynamics when we've settled, because I need to be partnered, right? You know what I mean?

• 11:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Totally, because what you're explaining so beautifully is like, there's a version of stability versus settling, right? Of like, oh, wow, this feels really great. This feels like it's in alignment with me. I feel really seen, heard, and understood, right? Like, this is a partnership that's adding to my life, and I feel stable, and I feel really great. Because like, you know as well as I do, we hear the like, I'm not feeling the spark, and I'm not feeling the highs, and I want to have all that. And it's like, that's a feeling.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Sure, good luck. I have been in long-term relationships. And it's the first thing to go is this like, high, high intensity? Because then you're like, oh, you fart a lot. You know? And it's just like, oh, right, because you become a real person.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:56Sabrina Zohar?

  But I really loved what you also mentioned, because it's true, like, we think about, what did our parent, what was our mother's generation? Like, even my mom says, she's like, the messaging was, what are you doing wrong? Your husband's not happy, why aren't you making him happy?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  That part.

• 12:07Sabrina Zohar?

  And for me, I think the biggest struggle I have, especially in the generation currently that we're in, is I feel like in the 70s, the 80s, we were really fighting for true equality, right? Like, women deserve to have bank accounts, and we can vote. And, you know, for anyone that doesn't agree, it's like, fuck off, this isn't your show. But we fought so hard. And then now, I'm curious your perspective on this. I feel like the pendulum has also now swung. All of a sudden, we like, we want to go back to the 50s of like, I want a provider man, I want a high-value man, I want someone that's just going to take care of me. And I'm like, well, that's cool. But like, nothing in life is free, right? So like, if you're going to, quote unquote, like, settle for Somebody that they take care of the household. Right, cool, that's your dynamic. You do you, but that comes with a price, right? Your partner then might have to work more because they have to facilitate a higher income for the home.

• 12:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Maybe they might be stressed more, right? Maybe they might be traveling more and like that's. I just feel like we're not really balancing in reality. And I'm curious, your thoughts on what you see as well with the polarities of the masculine and feminine? And all of this clickbait that we're ingesting now that I don't genuinely think is what Carl Jung meant when he was saying the feminine and the masculine. It's not that this guy is taking you out to dinner. It's like, what, what are we really talking about here?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. And because these energetics are not fixed states, I think a lot of the way people talk about them is sort of like, you need to be in your feminine and you will never be in your feminine and live there. It's similar to the way people talk about attachment styles as though they're an identity. It's, these are energies, right? And so it's sort of understanding that all of us have this and what's alive within my energy? And can it be information about myself? But in terms of what you were saying about, um, you know, this thing of like, I want a high value man to take care of me. I think if we start there, first of all, nothing in life is free, right? So there's a way that if someone is taking care of me, that comes at a cost a lot of times. And you are the object that is being taken care of.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And normally I find you are treated as such, right? A while into a relationship. So that's certainly something to take into account. But I don't know if you see this, but what I've seen shifting in relationship dynamics, and I'm going to speak heteronormatively for a minute, is that these structures were sort of, the way that patriarchy set it up was that the idea was that men would be dependent on women for their sort of meaning and sort of their connection to their emotional landscape. And women would be dependent on men economically, right? And so that has shifted, hallelujah, in so many ways. And I think we come from, well, I'm a little older than you, but we come from a generation where it's sort of like, we really built up girls

• 14:41Speaker 01

  in the space of like, you can do anything, like get in there and really make a lot of yourself in terms of your, I don't know, ability to earn and all of these, you know, like things that we were doing in school, whatever it is. But we didn't do a ton of restructuring around how boys really got to be in touch with their emotional landscape and really value their inner world and. You know, taking up space with one another with the truth of how I feel. And so I find so often there's a way that men and women are just sort of missing each other. And women are sort of in this space, like I hear a lot of men are trash. I don't need men, like all of these things. And I'm like, I can't tell you how often I will say to clients, if men are trash, then you need to stop being in a relationship with men for a while.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Like, take a step back until that's not the truth of how you feel. Because whatever you feel, you're going to attract in terms of your experience of reality. You know what I mean?

• 15:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh. It's a hill I'll die on because for a long time I didn't believe it. I was like, oh, come on, stop with this mindset shit. And it's like, oh, no, it's very fucking real. Like, what you believe is what you'll see. What you see is what you believe, right? Like, you'll, it's like, you know, we have to say, I'll see it when I believe it. It's like, no, well, I have to believe it in order to see it. Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say for a long time, like, nothing in life is free. And I hear this, and like, again, for anyone listening, you are allowed to want whatever you want. Right? You can, like, I have a girlfriend and she stays, she would say, I'm not settling. I'm not settling. I'm not settling. Okay, cool. And she ended up going with a guy and it's like, and he takes care of everything financially. She doesn't have to work and all of those. And it's like, but that comes with a price. Because then what she tells me is, oh, when I said, hey, can I come get you for lunch? This was years ago.

• 16:18Sabrina Zohar?

  And she goes, oh, well, my partner, so he's not home. And I was like, what's the problem? She goes, well, he just prefers that, like, I don't go out without him. And I was like, oh, okay. And then she was like, you know what? Not to mention, like, he has the money. And I was like, oh, right, so you don't get any control. But she thinks, no, he's taking care of me. I'm provided for. And it's like, listen, if that's the life you want to live, I was like, hey, you do you, man. I, you're not asking my advice. I don't give a fuck. But I think we're in this unrealistic expectation of like, even for instance, the video I made earlier today that was like, here's a text to send to a guy for a first date, or not a first date, just here's a text to send to someone to show interest. Like, hey, do you want to grab a drink? And the amount of like, that's in my masculine, I'm in my feminine. I don't chase after anyone.

• 17:01Sabrina Zohar?

  I was like, what's chasing of just saying, hey, do you want to grab a drink? I was like, there's no chase here. That's just being upfront and honest. That's not very feminine. And I was like, cool, can you describe to me what feminine is? Well, the man should be making all the moves. I said, so then how's that reciprocal? Well, I'm showing up. That's not reciprocity. That's called fucking arrogance. You think that you're, what are you Kanye West, your presence is your present? Like, no, but like, cause to me, part of a relationship means give and take, right? If I'm giving, giving, giving, that's going to feel really empty. And if I'm just taking, eventually I'm going to get bored because that can only go so far.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  And I think there's a way that we just have to get back to being human with one another. Something that comes up for me all the time with the dating apps is, you know, I'm sort of swiping to see if I can see myself building a life with this person. And it's like, what if we just started with getting to know a person? And if you are getting to know this person, then why does it matter if you throw out like, let's hang out, right? And actually see how you feel in this person's presence versus like, I have to like be in my masculine or feminine with this person because we're just from the jump in a dynamic about like what this is and what this means and what our roles are. And it's like, what if it wasn't about the rules so much as like two souls sitting together, attempting to get to know each other as people and slowing down a little bit.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Like, I just feel like there's so much dehumanization in like, how, how does that feel for you? But also, how do you imagine that feels for that person when we're in these like really solidified rules of not seeing one another?

• 18:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Literal dehumanization by saying black cat, golden retriever, like literally.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  That, ah, it like makes my stomach hurt. It really does.

• 18:37Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm curious. I'm curious to see your clinical professional experience, right? I would love to know the repercussions of the people that settle and like just say, well, I'll just take what I can get. Or this works. Like, I'm curious, what have you seen in the years that you're like, no, this, we can't keep doing this. Cause to your point, I hear this all the time of like, make it work no matter what. And it's like, no, no, no. Sometimes it's okay that it doesn't.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think, I think that's why I feel so strongly that people shouldn't settle is that I'm sitting all of the times in the aftermath of what happens when we don't have what I believe relationships need as a solid foundation. And I often say to couples, I think relationships need three things in order to thrive. And I don't even like, Period. I was gonna say in the long term, but just to thrive, right? And I think it's inspiration, respect, and a shared vision. And so if we are in the space where I don't really respect this person, but, and this is a big thing for us ladies, I'm just gonna say, like, but I see potential in who he could be. So I'm gonna work on molding him into someone that I could love. First of all, how's that working for you, right?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Because I think there's a way that, you know, especially my brothers, I think there's a little bit of a more linear way of experiencing the world, I find. And so it's like, if it ain't broke, like, why is it a problem, right? Like, this is who we are, it's working out. And women, a lot of times, we see, like, where this could go in terms of our energy and like, all of the expansion. And so for that person, that often doesn't feel super loving. Like, if I'm telling you, like, Sabrina, you'd be great, but if you could just chase this, this, this, this, and this.

• 20:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, even better.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  It's like, okay, well, I don't feel super seen and supported for who I am by you, Janey, right? And this is how people end up spending their life. Where it's like, I think our relationships are shifting into when it is justified for us to share our life together because this person is so inspiring to me, because I know that I'm a better person with this person than I could be on my own, then that is when it is justified to come together in a partnership. But not because I'm incomplete. Because if I believe that, I will, again, be in that space of believing you're this higher power and you're supposed to be all of these things for me that no other human being could possibly have the capacity to be. And so I feel like inevitably, we end up feeling really short-changed and disappointed.

• 20:54Sabrina Zohar?

  You know what it reminds me of? As you were talking about that, I was like, it sounds like a little kid who thinks that, like, their celebrity crush, or the movie, or, right, that like, when this, then this, right? And I was her. I used to fantasize as a kid, that was my coping mechanism, because my household was so chaotic and there was just, it was just such a level of abuse that was just so fucked up. And just in a multitude of every single person partaking part of that. I mean, I was fucking telling you about my cousin before this, like, you could see the nuts that fall from this tree. And for me, the coping was fantasy, right? I had Heath Ledger posters all over my room. I was fucking obsessed with him. I mean, how can you not be? And it was like, but I started, like, it was just, oh, Sabrina's boy crazy. And it was like, no, it had nothing to do with being boy crazy. It was because I was so unhappy in the life that I was living

• 21:39Sabrina Zohar?

  that I really genuinely believed someone else would make it better for me.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Girl. But that part, and you're naming something that I've never heard someone else name. And I think that a lot of times, relationship dynamics and being obsessed with this person and what they need to change in order to be someone that I can love, becomes a distraction from really being in my body and being in my own skin. And that, to me, was the piece that was like, God, this is so similar to the cycles of addiction. I'm just in this ruminating and he hasn't texted. And if he texts, da, da, da, da, and when he texts, ah, right? But it's like, you're distracting yourself from being in your body and staying with yourself. And I think the fantasy is a place, a lot of times, that we stay in that space of rumination to really avoid ourselves.

• 22:23Sabrina Zohar?

  It's fun. It's safer. It's easier, right? I don't have to deal with reality. I could just, I could project. And it was something I read and it beautifully, succinctly said it. And it was, it's something that I personally relate with because every single day I have people trying to tell me to change, right? I don't, you make me triggered, so can you talk differently? I don't like your content, so can you do this? And it was, I had read something where it was like, people with high anxiety, right? Anxious attachment, if we're going to label, which I don't love to do, but in this context, they get so uncomfortable with their current situation that they'd rather everyone else around them change to make them feel more comfortable than to say, hey, I don't like this, I'm going to remove myself, or this isn't a place for me. And I was curious, kind of, that feels like what we're talking about of like, you just need to go to, like, I hear it every, he just needs to go to therapy and become more emotionally

• 23:08Sabrina Zohar?

  available and start to love me. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you want this person to be something different than they are? Then tell me, what about them do you like that you would even date? If they have to do all of this? Because to me, what that sounds like, like you said, it's your own addiction of, let me fix, let me change, let me do, because the reality is too hard for me to handle, because then I have to face that. You're a human.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let me distract, right? And if we think about how hard it is to make change in our own lives, right? Like, think about something that you really wanted to change, or any change that you've made in a sustainable way. It's normally from a really- Internally resourced way, like I don't know anyone who has ever been nagged into submission and made like a substantial change in their life that they've been able to maintain. But it's hard to change, right? And so the young part of us tells ourselves the story that if I were worthy of love, you would change for me. You would, the person that has ghosted me will circle around and come back to me. Right? And that is a lot of self abandonment of that younger part, when, when we understand

• 24:10Speaker 01

  everybody's got stuff, that person is doing the best they can to negotiate their stuff just like you are. And we're really making someone other than another human when we expect them to be able to make changes that is really difficult for us to make within ourselves, you know?

• 24:24Sabrina Zohar?

  I will die on that hill. Because for anybody, I've had a couple of people leave me some reviews on the podcast saying, she's just repetitive. She just keeps saying the same thing. And I'm like, well, that's, that's because that's called psychology. I'm like, that doesn't change, right? Like the basic blueprints of like, hey, so this isn't healthy or this doesn't like get back in your body. You're ruminating inspirally, like, can we bring it back internally? And it's like, here's the thing, for me as a kid, did you just know, when someone said one plus one, you just automatically knew it was two? You didn't have to repeat it? You didn't have to say it to yourself over and over? And I think we're in this day and age of like, I need new, I need new. I want you to tell me something different and you to tell me something different. But what I get from that is like, oh, that, that to me just sounds like more self abandonment. Right? And then we end up settling because I hear this every day of like, I'm in my, you know, I'm in my late 30s, I want to have children. Right?

• 25:08Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's like, how can we support, one, how can we support people in that decision? Because like, we're women, I understand that, I understand the clock. But more so like, I really want to know how we can help people to understand the difference between like, is this a stable, healthy, secure partner for me? Or am I settling and just taking what I can get? Like, what are things that people can really look out for? Because I know you gave the three main components of a relationship, but for anybody that's like, oh, I don't actually know if I'm settling right now or not. Because that was one of the number one questions, how do I know?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I don't know, something about you saying that, I just like, it really struck me because I think that sometimes I think what we're avoiding is the grief of the timeline, the person, the thing that I thought was going to be my life at this point, it's not here yet. Right? And even that is a space of can I stay with myself through the pain that that brings up for me? And it's very real. I don't want to minimize that. If I dreamt of having children and I'm at a certain age where I don't know that that's still going to be possible for me. I think that there is grief to be felt and I don't ever want to minimize what that is for someone. And I think what we don't talk about is the importance, what you were saying about like something that is real and stable of like, oh my God, anybody who's ever had

• 26:22Speaker 01

  a child, like it matters who you have a child with, right? I, you know, I am a single woman with a child, not a single mother. And there's a very distinct difference because my child has an unbelievably present father.

• 26:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Fuck yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And I always make that distinction because not having that, I don't know how women do that, right? But a lot of times, you know, someone will say to me like, but I just, the clock is ticking and I know I want this child and he's not the person that I would want it with, but I don't want to get back out there and date again. And I'm like, this decision, not just for you, for this child that you're saying you want to have, think about what it will be like to co-parent with this person if that is not the reality that you stay together. Like, and those are some of the things we have to have some like big kid conversations with ourselves about because that is the reality of your life. And we are making choices that will impact us in the long term, in terms of what our lives feel like.

• 27:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, it's 100%. I, somebody actually had written in saying, I don't want to have to go slow. I just want to know, like, how can I deal with this? I'm in my 40s. I want a child already. Like, what do I do? And I just said back to her, I was like, I get it. Trust me. As a woman, I'm 34, I don't have children. I don't personally want them, but I do have a biological, I have a body. So I understand the desire of like, I have maternal instincts, right? And like, my heart goes out to anybody that that's your dream, fucking chase it. But to your point, my question to her was, okay, so for 18 years, you'd rather be completely inconvenienced versus just even thinking about like, my friend, she just adopted a child, single, she did it herself. More power to you, right? She was like, I don't want to be stuck with some schmo and have to deal with him because

• 27:58Sabrina Zohar?

  there is a lot of repercussions that come from that. And so I caution anybody. If you're thinking of, I'll just take it, it's like, really think about if there, it's one thing if you're saying, like, one of my friends told me, I know that maybe there could be a better partner there for me, but she was like, but he would be an amazing father. And she's like, and I love my partner. And she was like, could I, you know, could I go out there and search? She's like, I don't want to, I want to have a kid with him. And they did, they ended up having two kids. They're a great team, the parent, he's a fantastic father. But she also knows, like, this isn't, you know, she was like, I would be an idiot to think like, oh, my God, this is the best relationship I've ever had. But she was like, but where I'm at in my life, I wanted children and this really worked for me. And I'm curious, your perspective on, I guess, really just how do you start to kind of make those decisions?

• 28:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Or if you find yourself going, oh, fuck, I think I settled, right? Like, how can we, with love and grace, be able to navigate that?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  I love that you said love and grace, right? Because I think I am that person that doesn't believe in mistakes, which everyone's like, and I don't. I think this is like, we came here to learn. I think every experience of my life has never been wasted because it's taught me something I needed to know. It's supported me in becoming the woman that I've become. So I think we have to give ourselves grace for where we are, wherever we make those decisions and hindsight's, you know, really clear. But it can be hard sometimes to have that ahead of time. And I think, you know, there's, if I feel like I've settled and this is the reality, I think this is where we got to get into no fault zone, vigorous honesty. And how do we move forward?

• 29:30Speaker 01

  So let's say your friend that you're describing realizes, like, you're an amazing father and you're not the person I want to share my life with. I think that is where the sharing of a life with two souls part comes in to me. Because, you know, what I love to normalize is it doesn't have to be that anybody's failed. If we say, this is no longer aligned, and I look at my kiddo's dad and like, the women that he has had in his life, many of which are like, really good friends of mine. But they're such beautiful women who are aligned with what I believe that he deserves. And we're just both able to be so much happier and thriving in truth than we were when we were trying to hold on to something that was no longer aligned, right?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And I just think the other thing you said about your friend who is having a child. By herself, I think we really need to normalize more community. I think there's so much about the nuclear family structure that is so unbelievably depleting to parents, people in general, but it's just not enough. I think one person, and this is sort of the partnership aspect being everything for me, you know, my friend, my confidant, my travel buddy, the erotic other, like, it's too much.

• 30:39Sabrina Zohar?

  It's a lot.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  One person does not have the capacity to be that for us ever. And so, you know, I think normalizing, that we need to do this a little bit more in a village, and we need to have other people that are in my child's life, and they will benefit from that as well. But I think that's the other aspect of when we have community around us, I think there's a little bit less pressure on like, I need to partner up because I feel alone and I feel isolated. And it's like, you know, if we have people in our lives, then we don't have to feel alone, but we can sort of hold off until it's a more aligned partnership.

• 31:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah. To your point, she lives on a compound. She's got like, yeah, she because even she said she was like, I can't do this alone. Like, I need, and she's very successful, so she was able to facilitate what her needs were. And it's like, fuck yeah, right? Like, it doesn't have to be the cookie cutter, man meets woman, if we're talking heterosexual norms, man meet man, woman, I don't really care. It doesn't need to be what the movies say, right? It can also just be your lived experience. But I wanted to talk, because you had mentioned the stability and aliveness.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? And you were like, oh, let's talk about kind of what does that actually mean and look like.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, a lot of the way that I talk about masculine and feminine energetics, that's what I mean when I'm talking about, I'm talking about these dualities, these polar energies that are like the stuff of life, right? And so, you know, I think Gabor Maté, but like, so many people talk about these fundamental human needs that we have. We need a sense of attachment, stability, something that we feel tethered to. That's just like, if we think about it in a collective level, that's like a sense of community, something that we feel like, okay, this is the solidified space that I know I'm rooted in, but we also need aliveness and eros and life force and expansion, right? So the masculine energy

• 32:22Speaker 01

  within all of us is sort of the ego, our body, it's like the solidified pure We are, you know, like the container, the feminine is the aliveness, the life force, the eros, all of that energy. And we need both, but we live in a society that for thousands of years now, has put a tremendous amount of emphasis on the masculine, and I would say wounded masculine structures, right? But what we're seeing right now, and we're like right on the tip of the iceberg with the Aquarian Age, is that the feminine energy within all of us, regardless of gender, is rising and it's expanding. And so what that means is, we're starting to question a little bit, you know, like, this is the way I've always been taught that it has to be done, or it should be done, but like, what else could be

• 33:07Speaker 01

  true? And I think with the couples that I see, that's why I'm seeing such an explosion of like, ethical non-monogamy and polyamory and all these other ways that we can structure relationships. And I kind of love it, not so much because I have an opinion on those things so much as I'm like, it's the exploration, it's sort of defining our relationship dynamic for ourselves. And I think when we put too much emphasis on the structure and just the safety and just the attachment, but not the aliveness, it becomes this thing of like, if we're repressing any part of ourselves, what we resist persists, and it will come to the surface. And a lot of times, it comes to the surface in some maladaptive ways. So if I'm just focused on the security, the stability, the relationship communication stays intact, then I will need life force, I

• 33:51Speaker 01

  will need eros. And sometimes that's like an affair, infidelity happens, right? Or all of these things happen because we haven't been putting enough emphasis on like, no, we need to be constantly evolving and expanding and changing and in curiosity and not enmeshed, and like, we are each other's everything. And so a lot of what I get into in the book is like, what it looks like for the couples that I work with to sort of be in that space of the dance of the masculine feminine within ourselves, and so that we're not really looking to outsource that so much to another person.

• 34:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I love that. If anybody were to look at my relationship, we're the polar opposite of the feminine masculine. I am the quote unquote masculine, like it's my business, my partner and I work for my business. We, but like, I'm the breadwinner of the house in that sense, because I pay both of our salaries. Then we look, he cooks and cleans. He takes care of the kitchen like that's his thing. And I remember somebody like one night who he was like tickling me or something and I like was laughing and I was like just feeling so comforted. And that was when it first hit me. I was like, oh, for me to access this quote unquote feminine part of me. I was like, I needed safety. I needed somebody that allowed me to receive and to just disarm and but then also to have that space to where I can be more masculine and say, no, I need to take control of this.

• 35:01Sabrina Zohar?

  And so for anyone listening, let me just, I think, clarify again to the internet that has fucked up masculine and feminine. Feminine to me, when I hear the like, I'm in my feminine and I just receive. It's like what I hear is a fond response of like, oh, I just, I'm just gonna sit and just wait and I'm just gonna let you do everything to me because I'm terrified of rejection and I can't actually stand up and say, I'd like to show you interest because God forbid I'm in my masculine. But all of us have that because every day you have to be in your masculine in order to fucking take care of yourself in order to, if you're single, right? You have to have both of those dualities and it can't all one versus all the other. If the pendulum swings too severely. When we're so in our masculine, it's like, are you trying to control the outcome? Are you trying to control the situation?

• 35:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Is that why you feel like you need to be a bull in a china shop because you're uncomfortable just being in your own body? I don't care how you want to slices and dice this masculine feminine polarities. At the end of the day, get back home to yourself and start to find that balance internally because you can't have such a masculine man. That sounds machismo. That sounds like toxic masculinity. The same as the toxic femininity of like, as a woman, I just do my nails, then just get my hair done. It's like, there's a lot more to a woman and femininity than that shit.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Listen, this is why I love you. You're so brilliant. But it's that, right? So if we understand that all of us have both masculine and feminine energetics. If a man is all in his machismo and not connected to his feminine, he cannot be in relationship with your feminine. He will be abusive to your feminine because he's completely rejected his own feminine, right? And so what I love about what you're describing about your relationship is, to me, this is the thing of like, how do we be in this dance of aliveness? But really present centered awareness with like knowing myself well. And I don't care about the roles. It's like, who loves doing this thing? Amazing. You be responsible for. For the cooking, if that's what you love to do.

• 36:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank God.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Dream, right? If I like really thrive in like the idea space and the work like, great, like I'm like, let's just remove the roles. But how do we be in relationship with myself in a way that I can really show up in this relationship with you, knowing myself well, so that I'm not just like projecting all of those fears and roles onto you, you know?

• 37:08Sabrina Zohar?

  God, I wish, while we were talking about this offline, I wish people understood how much projection happens. Like, it's 99.9% of the time I have interactions with people. I'm like, okay, that's cool, but I can identify it. And I think that to me, like, that's how I feel about when people attack on the masculine feminine, the black cat energy and all this fucking nonsense. Let me ask you, how is your fucking dating like going? How is your, how are your relationships? Do you feel fulfilled and charged and energized? And like, I feel so comfortable around this person. It's like, are you always playing this dance? Because you have to be something that's not realistic.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's just defending against actually taking responsibility for my part, right? Like, I feel like we were talking about this a little bit before, but like, something that's like nails on a chalkboard to me around like, the avoidant conversation, or even like the fuck boy conversation. It's like, okay, and where was your part in the energy of the dynamic? Like, how much were you like, this is my person. I just know, right? Like, he's the one, and it takes off. And then all of a sudden, he's gone and he's ghosted you. And you're not even like taking, well, but did I move a little fast? Did I really get to know this person? Was I really present with how it felt in my body, moment to moment, breath to breath? And that's like, it's again, all the grace for ourselves. But I think this is a little bit of like, where we've just decided, like, I need a knight in shining armor

• 38:24Speaker 01

  to come rescue me. And that's the thing about, about settling. It's a lot of times, I'm just looking for someone versus like, are you really in present centered relationship with this person right here in front of me? Really? And that's the 100% I have to take.

• 38:38Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent. I'm all day. And anytime I hear that, I'm like, I'm tired of this woe is me story. Like, I'm very, I'm over the, all these guys are such assholes. They're all so avoidant. They're all this. And it's like, again, what is my part in it? I had a narcissistic ex. You're right. God, he was terrible. But you know what? I was also super fucking unhealthy. I was really toxic. I thought he was my dad. I was projecting onto him. I used protest behavior. I didn't have self-esteem. I would do the, I can't do this anymore. And then he would feel abandoned and then he would react to me. And we would get into these screaming matches and then he'd walk out the door and then I'm on the floor crying and I'm like, this is my dad. Okay, now let me be a good girl and get him back. I played into that dynamic. I don't blame or shame myself, but I will take full accountability radically

• 39:22Sabrina Zohar?

  that I played a part in why this didn't work. And like, that's why I love what you were saying about the marriage. I have an ex. We left it off of great terms of like, you're an amazing person. You're not my person. And I feel like we either, it's like that black and white, either has to be good or bad. To make, because if they're bad, I'm good, right? Because we, holding that two conflicting truths of, they're an amazing person, but they're not my person. It almost feels scary, I think, for a lot of people to have that much control and power over their life. So I'd rather control you, the fake perception of control than actually be in control of what I have, which is moi.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  That's like chef's kiss, what you just said, because honestly, I think what is so scary for us is how much agency we have and how powerful we are. And that we are outsourcing our power as a choice. And that's like, again, big breath on how much grace, because we've all been there. Everything you're describing, I'm like, same.

• 40:12Sabrina Zohar?

  We're all same, right?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Like, we've all been there. And once we have the conscious awareness of it, I don't have to do that anymore. And I think what's shifting in terms of our relationships is just this understanding that to me, and it's a little bit the perspective of depth, depth psychology is, relationships are the most beautiful mirror I can possibly have placed in front of me, showing me to me, showing me my pain points, showing me my growing edges. If I choose to see it this way, this is like the most incredible curriculum possible, versus this person's gonna save me from my existential fears. And once the, once the one comes, then like, and nobody's ever able to do that or be that for us. So again, when I say like, I don't think we should be settling, it's not.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  That I don't think we want to be really realistic about being human and like, you know, we are in relationships with other humans. They're going to do all the other human things that we do. And I think it's really like, how do I come back to the relationship with myself as what this relationship is really about, right? Like, it's showing me the things that I need to grow through.

• 41:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Which is kind of one of the, let's get to speed dating. Speed dating, I decided to add this feature to the show where I was like, we're going to do speed dating, which means I just ask you rapid fire questions.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 41:25Sabrina Zohar?

  But which kind of answered the unrealistic expectations for settling, right? Of like, I'd be curious, do you have anything that stands out hearing that? Because I'm sure we get this all the time, like, well, they don't do this, and they don't do this, and they don't do this. I'm settling. And it's like, how do you balance between the like, no dude, you just sound like you're being wildly unrealistic because he has to be 6'5", blue eyes, finance.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 41:45Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, so how can we find a balance between that? Because that was the number one question was like, the difference between settling and settling down. Like, I think there's a confusion of how do we navigate what's actually good for us versus the like, hey, I just don't think this is right.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard, right? Because I think so much of this is in our logic space. And to a certain extent, maybe it's the romantic in me, but I think it's not logic, it's love and, right? I think it's, we're meeting another human, right? And how do we be in the space of, like, there's just so much dehumanization in even those, like, things that you were describing. And I think the 6'5", blue eyes, it's like, ah, god, you know, it's so dehumanizing. It kind of makes me cringe. But again, I think it's like, do I feel like who this person is makes me want to be a better version of myself? Makes me feel like, ah, god, I'm just, to me, love is a little bit like, I'm grateful to know someone like this exists,

• 42:43Speaker 01

  right? Like, when I think of the couples that I really admire, who they are with one another and the way they show up, it's that energy of like, I just admire this person, right? And if you don't feel that, I think it's about something else. It's a little bit in the realm of fear. And if we're not sure if we're operating from fear. Or love, I think a lot of times, fear has an objective, right? It's like, here's what I'm making happen, right? Love is like, you know, I'm present, I'm curious, I'm really attempting to understand what I don't understand, right? It's not in that space of attempting to control or manipulate. And even the like 6'5" blue eye, like, there's some control and manipulation in that, right? So it's like, yeah, like, what's the objective that I'm chasing versus being in a relationship

• 43:27Speaker 01

  with another human being?

• 43:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Which I think, to your point, what you're saying so beautifully is like, is there rigidity versus like, is there a little bit of flexibility, right? That's the, to me, the unrealistic expectations are incredibly rigid. You have to do this, you have to do this. Why didn't you call? It's like, it's almost everything to where you're like, hey, this is heavy, right? Like, I can't, I don't know what you want, right? To me, when I think of unrealistic expectations, I think of unmet needs.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Especially when they're unrealistic, that you're like, oh, so let me guess, this person has to make all the money, they have to do everything, they have to come, they have to be the one that provide, they have to be the one that chase you, they have to be the one that shows their interest, they have to be the ones that are this. But then my question back is like, cool, and then how are you showing up?

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And do you care about how that feels for them? Genuinely, like even, and I love that, I hear you talk a lot about like this thing of like, you know, he hasn't texted me, and there's like, there's been this whole response, and it's like, I think we're so quick to jump to the contempt versus the curiosity. And what I love to say to couples all the time is, how can I offer the most generous interpretation in my mind first, before going to the catastrophe, before going to the like, this is why this person who I'm saying that I love is doing something inevitably to hurt me? And again, that's a pain point, that's something historic, um, normally, that is making me draw from the place of catastrophe, but also, can I think about what that feels like for that person I'm in partnership with or I'm dating, right?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  If I'm jumping inevitably to the least generous interpretation of their actions, we don't talk about what that feels like for the person that I don't feel like is texting me enough a lot of times. A lot of times, it feels like, uh, whatever I do, I'm doing it wrong, and, and that feels like really awful, you know?

• 45:07Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent to that, to that point. The amount of times even Ryan will be like, cool, you want more texting? He's like, and how do you think that makes? Makes me feel, the person that doesn't want that. And it's like, that's, I think, the why I'm so glad we had this conversation is because we do need to see different perspectives. It's like, I can't, that's also why I don't just do solos. It's one fucking echo chamber, just constantly bouncing back and forth. But it's so important. It's like, we don't need to villainize other people to make our suffering and pain feel more valid, right? We don't have to make them the bad guy of like, fuck that guy, or she's dick, or all these, like, we could also say, hey, maybe they do have avoidant attachment, or maybe they're just not the person for me, right? I don't need to diagnose them, but instead of going guilty until proven innocent, it's like, how can I show space? Because I've had clients that'll say, they're freaking out, and I'll be like, so this is called hypervigilance, right?

• 45:52Sabrina Zohar?

  You don't know what the problem is, but you know there's a problem. And sure enough, they find out, like, one of my clients found out that the guy she was dating, like, his daughter had gotten hurt. And he was like, right, he was at the hospital with a daughter and didn't have reception. And so she was, and I was like, yo, you're making it about you, and you're not holding space, but yet you wonder why your partner doesn't know how to show up for you, because it's the you show. But it's not the, we also have to make space for another person's reality, that maybe that person's avoidant and shutting down, because you're being really overwhelming to them, and they don't know how to handle this. It doesn't mean I have to be wrong for it, but I can also take a step back and say, yeah, you're right, I could be a bullet in a china shop. I can see how that could be really hard for someone to receive, because I'm also thinking about their experience.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're so good. And I think that is, to me, what is often missing in the, but why is someone avoidant, right? Like, it's, we're so quick to villainize, and it's like, if we understand, some of that energy you're describing is for people, a lot of times, what it felt like in childhood, when a parent needed so much for them, from them, excuse me, or a parent was like, really big in their needs, and their energy, and their overwhelm. And from a child's perspective, it was like, ah, and shut down, right? And go inward, and that's become their trauma response, or their initial way of navigating overwhelm. And it's like, we don't really think about, though, but why? Why is that person operating this way? And it's not to, like, excuse it or make it okay, it's just maybe it's not aligned in terms of where they are and what I want in a partnership.

• 47:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Hmm, so beautifully said. Okay, let me ask you one last question. And which I don't want to have to end it, but we have to. Okay. What questions can you ask yourself if you feel like you're settling?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 47:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I think, I think just maybe even some journal prompts or something that we can get curious, right? We can invite some curiosity to anybody that's listening to be able to navigate like, am I settling? Or am I finding a fucking problem with this person because they're really great?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Two questions I love, and I love this question. It's so good. The first I would say is if nothing about this dynamic, this relationship, this person ever changes one iota, would I want this, right? Do I still want this for myself? So that would be the question around, am I like falling in love with potential? But the other question, and I love this, I heard this like on a reel somewhere, and I was like, ooh, that is so good. But it's like, if someone told you that you were just like your partner, would that be a compliment?

• 48:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love that.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Or would you cringe a little bit?

• 48:13Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that. It reminds me of like when I was with my ex and I went to my friends who'd been married for like 10 years. And he looked at me and he goes, do you accept him for who he is? I said, yeah, but he goes, I'm done. And he goes, that's it. Yeah, but? And he goes, no, you either accept him. He's like, you've been with this person for over a year. He was like, you accept him or you don't. But when you incorporate the but I need, and he was like, so then you don't accept him for who he is. And this isn't what works for you. And I was like, oh, fuck.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  So real.

• 48:39Sabrina Zohar?

  It's so real.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  So real.

• 48:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, Danai, I could have you on for fucking hours.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. To be continued. I am obsessed with you.

• 48:45Sabrina Zohar?

  We will do more. 100% 2025. We're coming for you. But where can people find you? The book will be linked in the show notes, but plug away. Where can people find you, work with you, or even just learn more about you?

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Thank you, Sabrina. So my bestie Vanessa Bennett and I have a community called The Cheaper Than Therapy Community, where we do a lot of group work and community and all kinds of like facilitating of groups all the time. Danaylogan.com is my website. And yeah, Sovereign Love is the book that gets into all of what we're talking about from my perspective.

• 49:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Yay. Okay. I'm so excited, guys. Go get the book. Go follow. Go do all the things. And thank you again so much for being part of the family.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, I love. This is so fun.