The War Inside: Combat Veteran Sarah Lee On PTSD & How Cycling America Saved Her Life

Imagine finding yourself in a place so painful, dark and hopeless that suicide feels like the only option. Welcome to post traumatic stress disorder. Few things are more important than mental health. Nonetheless, the World Health Organization estimates that about 300 million people worldwide suffer from depression. In the United States, anxiety disorders are the most common mental illness, affecting 18% of the population — 7.7 million of whom are afflicted by PTSD. Sarah Lee is one such individual. A former Army Sergeant and Operation Iraqi Freedom II Combat Veteran, Sarah experienced more than her fair share of trauma during her 2004 deployment. After 8-years of service, she retires to civilian life and begins to struggle mightily with re-acclimating to normalcy. Numb, she begins to withdraw from friends and family. Her only companion becomes chronic neck and knee pain. And her only solace the food she binges to salve her emotional wounds. 100 pounds heavier, she is then diagnosed with a potentially life-threatening, grapefruit-sized ovarian cyst. By April 2017, Sarah descends into a depression so bleak, she very nearly takes her own life. Today she tells her story — an inspiring tale of survival and service that begins with a bike However, countless who suffer from PTSD never find their way out. In fact, 22 veterans take their own lives every single day. The very day I hosted this podcast was no exception. On November 7, 2018, just miles from my house, 28-year old combat veteran Ian David Long was planning an outlet for the dark thoughts he couldn't shake. And just hours after Sarah shared her solution with me, Long succumbed to his pain. Pulling out a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol with a laser sight, he opened fire on a crowd of 20-somethings gathered at the Borderline Grill in Thousand Oaks, killing twelve before fatally shooting himself. The confluence of these two events — and the disparity in their respective outcomes — perfectly underscores the severity of PTSD, our mental health epidemic at large, and the dire need for better diagnostics and more innovative treatment solutions for the untold millions who suffer. So let's talk about it. This is a story about courage. It’s about healing. And it’s about redemption. I'll let Sarah tell the rest. To view our conversation on YouTube, visit bit.ly/sarahlee424. And don't forget we're also now on Spotify. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  It had kind of come to a head, some of the guilt and depression, and I needed to do something to kind of prove to myself that I wanted and deserved to be here. I needed a big challenge to prove I was still capable of something like this. And it was very important to me to honor the friends I lost by living, instead of isolating and not wanting to be here. And then having lost friends to suicide, knowing that there's 22 a day that are doing this, and that I was so close to myself. It was kind of a personal intimate testimony to that, too. A lot of people didn't know that we were losing 22 veterans a day. That's a lot. It's so many. I mean, you fight so hard to get back.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  And I would describe it as the war inside is just totally different than the ones we were trained to win.

• 1:57Rich Roll?

  That's Sarah Lee, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:14Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? This is indeed the podcast. Welcome or welcome back. You are in the right place. So pull up a seat. It's cool. Get comfortable. You can come closer. Come on, slide up, get in the front, get in the listening mode, pay attention. There you go. Good. Because today, today, we're going to talk about an important subject. We're going to talk about mental health. We're going to explore post-traumatic stress, PTSD, what it's like to be so at war with oneself, to be lost in such a darkness that suicide feels like the only option. And we're going to discuss the path to healing.

• 2:59Rich Roll?

  And our steward for this exchange is Iraq War Combat Veteran Sarah Lee. And I'm going to explain all about who she is and why. But first, let's support the sponsors that make these important conversations possible.

• 3:20Rich Roll?

  Okay, let's get into it. Combat Veteran Sarah Lee. So Sarah is a former Army Sergeant who served eight years in the military, including a 14-month deployment to Iraq in 2004 for Operation Iraqi Freedom II, after which she retires from the military. She returns to civilian life and then begins to really struggle to re-acclimate to some semblance of normality. She suffers from chronic pain. She finds herself increasingly more and more isolating from friends and family. She begins emotionally eating. She develops this grapefruit-sized ovarian cyst that leads to a full hysterectomy.

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  It's basically one thing after another until she finds herself 100 pounds overweight and descending into this very dark depression that becomes so bleak that in April of 2017, she very nearly takes her own life.

• 4:24Rich Roll?

  The absolutely bone chilling part about our conversation is this, the very day, the very same day, in fact, at the exact same time that Sarah and I recorded this conversation, which was a fair while ago, it was the afternoon of November 7th of last year, several months ago, there just so happened to be another military veteran, a machine gunner who had spent time in Afghanistan, literally just miles from my home, just down the road and the next town over, who was also suffering from some very, very dark thoughts. Sarah

• 5:06Rich Roll?

  Lee found a healthy way out, a healthy way forward, but 28-year-old Ian David Long did not. Just hours after Sarah and I concluded our conversation, and just 13 miles away, this young man pulls out a 45 caliber semi-automatic pistol with a laser sight and opens fire on a crowd of mostly 20-somethings, people just enjoying themselves at the Borderline Grill in Thousand Oaks, and he ultimately kills 12 people before fatally shooting himself.

• 5:44Rich Roll?

  And I think the confluence of these two events really underscores and emphasizes the severe gravity of our mental health epidemic, that PTSD is a very serious issue. Somewhere between 11 and 20% of all Iraq war veterans suffer from it, 30% of Vietnam vets, something like 20 to veterans take their own lives every single day, which is just horrifically insane. War, of course, takes its toll, but I think it's incumbent upon all of us to better address the undeniably significant psychological effects that we ask our brave men and women

• 6:28Rich Roll?

  to endure. Sarah's healing begins with a bicycle, and this is a story about many things, but ultimately, I think it's about courage, it's about healing, and it's about redemption. And I think I'm just going to leave it there and let Sarah tell you the rest.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  Well, thank you for being here today. Congratulations on your epic bike ride across America.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 7:00Rich Roll?

  Can't wait to hear a little bit more about it. And explore the connection between fitness and adventure and mental wellbeing, which I think is super important.

• 7:15Rich Roll?

  You finished the ride in July, right?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  I finished in September.

• 7:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, in September?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Yes, September 3rd.

• 7:22Rich Roll?

  Oh, it was more recent than I thought. Wow.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Labor Day.

• 7:23Rich Roll?

  That's right. Oh, you started again. You resumed it in June. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I had to start again June 2nd.

• 7:30Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, you're here. We're going to talk about all this kind of stuff.

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  Your story is super inspiring.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  What you've overcome and what you decide to tackle. And what I think is most important is what it means for the rest of us. So to set the stage, to provide a little context, why don't we go all the way back to the beginning? Right? So you end up enlisting, right? At like a pretty young age.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yes, I joined the Army National Guard at age 17. My parents had to co-sign.

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  What was the motivation? Like, was that something you always wanted to do?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  I always wanted to do something like that. It was between the military or possibly the FBI. I looked into both and I just felt a little more of a calling toward the military. I always wanted to be part of something bigger than myself. I craved a challenge constantly. I played sports and everything. And I really enjoy the physical challenge, the mental challenge, you know, to see how far I can push myself and push others too.

• 8:36Rich Roll?

  Did you grow up in a military family? Do you have brothers and sisters?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  I have one sister. No, to answer your question, no. I have two great uncles that served. One was a full bird colonel in the Army. He's an intelligence officer, communications officer. He actually participated. He had a hand in the moon landing. He had a signed thing from NASA and all these things. And it was amazing. He was very soft spoken and didn't talk very much about it. So I don't know a lot of the details. He probably couldn't. But aside from that, I don't know of... Of any other.

• 9:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was just a good thing.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  But it wasn't a shock, I don't think, because I was always very outdoorsy and I liked roughing. I liked camping and being in nature, playing with every animal I could find. And it just, I was always fascinated by the outdoors and pushing myself in different ways. So it just fit, it fit really well.

• 9:30Rich Roll?

  And your parents were cool with it and everything?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  They, yes, yes and no. My mom couldn't sign it. She had my dad do it. She's like, I couldn't do, I couldn't possibly do. But they were extremely supportive and very proud. Like, that's my ultimate goal, always, to make my parents proud. And they've always been supportive of my dreams and everything like that, so.

• 9:48Rich Roll?

  You grew up in Ohio, right?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, north central Ohio.

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  So, once you sign on the dotted line, like, what happens? How does it work?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Well, I was still in high school. I had to wait to graduate to go to basic training. And so you go off to basic training and, uh.

• 10:03Rich Roll?

  Where'd you do that?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  It was Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And they kind of just break you down and build you back up, which is a wonderful experience. I almost feel like you get a huge, you get to start life steps further, just based on knowing your personal limitations or, or not knowing them, or wondering if you even have them. At the end of it, you're like, is there nothing I can't push myself to do or so? I don't know. It equips you with all these skill sets right out of the gate. You have to learn things very quickly and the leadership aspect, stepping up, and then the bonds you form in there, being kind of

• 10:46Speaker 01

  a, a team. You don't really recognize color, in a way, except for you wear green and you bleed red, and those are the only two colors that should matter. And we're a unit and you, you know, jump in front of a bullet for one another. It's this really cool bond foundation and camaraderie that you gain right, right off the bat. You're introduced to all these things so early.

• 11:08Rich Roll?

  I think it's something that, that we don't really have in our culture, with the exception of playing sports, which is, you know, a facsimile of that, but a situation in which the stakes are, you know, not nearly as high, of course.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  No, it gets intense with sport. It's a lot like sports. It's also a lot like, I think, the medical field, especially paramedics, nurses, doctor, the, the medical field is.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  Firemen.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Firemen, police. There's a lot of similarities between those careers, too.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  And you really bond quickly over intense situations. I think that's what makes that bond so solid and so profound is the intensity of the situations that you're in.

• 11:44Rich Roll?

  And what is the boot camp experience like in, you know, my only point of reference is what I see in movies and TV, right? Is it like that? Is it?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  You know, honestly, yeah, yeah, pretty much. It really is there. At least when I was in, it may have changed. I went to boot camp 2001 and they get right in your face and scream. And now they can't, you know, maybe throw you to the ground and things like that or throw things at you, but they can sling some pretty harsh, you know, strings of words.

• 12:17Rich Roll?

  What, uh, what month? I mean, was it before or after September 11th?

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Oh, I joined, I joined prior to September 11th, shortly before. So I'd completed basic and everything. I was actually attending college when September 11th happened. And then I, they did the origin or the initial infiltration that next year, 2003, 2002, 2003, I received a call to that my unit was going to be activated. So.

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're deployed to Iraq?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:50Rich Roll?

  For Operation Iraqi Freedom?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yes, 2004.

• 12:55Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  For 12 months.

• 12:56Rich Roll?

  So, explain to me that experience.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Well, you grow up very quickly. I thought basic training shot me ahead, but I turned 21 over there. So you just have to, you have to figure things out really quickly. And it's, it's actually amazing how fast you adjust to it and how quickly the environment and the sounds and the smells all become kind of normal. And it was an intense year. It definitely was. And

• 13:32Rich Roll?

  What was a day in the life like when you were, when you were deployed?

• 13:36Speaker 01

  It varied. It did vary drastically. I would say, um, on average, let's say when I maybe did guard duty um, on the perimeter or something like that. It was 12 hour shifts. I did the night shift and

• 13:50Rich Roll?

  And what's a shift? Like, what are you doing on a shift?

• 13:52Speaker 01

  You basically, well, it's like a static, it was like static security. You'd sit with the, the M249, the squad automatic weapon and there was different sites you would use with the thermal, things like that, because it was night. You would just, you know, make sure everything is safe. No one's coming in and things like that. And, um, every day, every day was different, but the same. But there was always like the, the worry that either you would be killed or your friends would be. So it was, it was very high intensity. I think that's a lot of why we remember every second of it. I think, uh, when your senses are all heightened, you absorb things differently. It's so permanent. Like, I can't remember what I maybe did a week ago, but I remember,

• 14:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  You know, like every single

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Cement in your head.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Detail of, right, right. So, um, but yeah, it was, it was a very, the year went by quickly, you know, and we spent so long downplaying it that I guess we just kind of made, made, make light of the deployment sometimes when we get back and things. Because we don't really want to have to paint the picture for people sometimes.

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  But as a, almost a survival mechanism for yourself, right? To, if you downplay it, then perhaps the toll it's taking on you isn't real.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  That is very true.

• 15:12Rich Roll?

  Or isn't as intense as what is actually happening.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  It's like when you don't feel well, but you don't say anything and you can kind of control it or it, you know, it doesn't become real. And then when you say something, it's like, okay, now I really don't feel well, like, uh, physically, you know? And, uh, maybe that's, uh, maybe that's part of the fear of talking about some of the things is we don't want some of the, maybe the things we're dealing with to be real or, uh, Yeah, that's a really great way to look at it. That's very true.

• 15:45Rich Roll?

  And when you're there, I would imagine that you lost some colleagues.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yes, that was probably the biggest factor for some of my issues is the fact that we had to come home without everybody. I was particularly close to one of the soldiers that was killed over there. And so there's definitely an aspect of guilt that you carry. And some days are probably heavier than others, I would say. And sometimes you don't think about it for a while and then you'll see something. And you kind of, it really does, I think, build over time, which is a lot of, a big part of what led me to ultimately doing this cycling trip. I just, it was a combination of, do I deserve to be here or deserve good

• 16:35Speaker 01

  things, mixed with feeling guilty about that because I'm not living and honoring my friend's sacrifice by isolating. I'd began isolating quite a bit over the last decade, I would say.

• 16:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I want to really, I want to really understand PTSD and how it impacted you and what it's all about. But I think it would be, I'm still trying to understand what you had, what you endured while you were overseas to help me kind of wrap my head around what it would be like to come home and live with that. Like, were you on patrols? Were you like on the front? Like, was there just constant bomb? Like, what, you know, paint me the picture of like, the experience of being in Iraq at that moment?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yes, it varies person to person. My, I think my biggest things are low, loud booms, I would say, because we would have, you know, mortars and artillery and stuff come in almost daily, close enough to where it would, you know, shake the buildings and things like that.

• 17:42Rich Roll?

  On the base.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. I was at Camp Spiker near Tikrit, Iraq. So, anything that's kind of like a low boom, I just kind of pause because usually it would be, it wouldn't just be one, and you would just kind of pause and listen and wait and stuff. And then you get mad at yourself because you're home and it's not, it's not a mortar, Sarah, you know, like chill out, you know? And other things.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Like in particular, my rotation, it was one of the first rotations with women. And there was a million dollar bond on the head of any female soldier captured. And I, we were kind of briefed on this, you know, when we got there. And so there's like an element of paranoia and, and, and in the back of my mind, I think in the very back, because I, I loved everyone I served with, I trusted them with my life. In the very back of your mind, it's like a million dollars is a lot of money too. So it's like, you don't know.

• 18:38Rich Roll?

  Every time you leave the base on patrol or whatever, you're the high value target. Even on the base.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, we would have Iraqis come in and do certain tasks on there.

• 18:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  The base and everything. So.

• 18:48Rich Roll?

  Was that part of trying to train the Iraqi army so they could be self-sufficient or?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Not when I was there, not where I was. It was more kind of like different jobs around the base that they would do. So they, they were definitely intermixed with us here and there. And.

• 19:07Rich Roll?

  And you're not, you don't, I mean, conceivably they're, they're cleared somehow to come on the base, but you're always questioning, you know, dual motives or whatnot.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yes, very much so. So I think the hyper vigilance and the, that kind of level of paranoia, I would say, well, it's, it's kind of a strong, I watch, I kind of watch everything, you know? That's another reason why I just started staying at home.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  You're super aware of everything all the time, which has to be, you know.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  It's exhausting. That's a lot of why I started staying at home a lot too. I just, I was just getting fatigued from, from all of it. And also.

• 19:43Rich Roll?

  Was there ever a moment where, you know, you were super in harms way?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yes, there was one, a rocket, like a full rocket came into the camp and landed in the front yard of the building that was typically, and I was a street back at the time and it was. It was like the loudest thing that I could, that I've ever heard. I mean, everyone, people have taken roadside bombs right, right next to them, you know, so that's, that's different. But that rocket coming in, it didn't kill anybody miraculously, it didn't fully detonate. So they had, you know, the, the guys come in and disarm it and take it away and everything. But it came right in, there was a crater, took a photo and video of it and everything. And I was like, this is the building I work in, here's, here's where the rocket came in, you know, it's like right there.

• 20:31Rich Roll?

  And it didn't even fully deploy, right? So what, what would, I mean, it had it then, it would have been much more.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think the kill radius on it. It would have killed a lot. I think a lot of people had it fully detonated. But the crater itself was huge. It was the loudest thing ever. So I think that's where like the low loud booms kind of bother me and stuff like that.

• 20:50Rich Roll?

  Does that still happen? Like if you pull up to a car that's playing a lot of bass?

• 20:54Speaker 01

  No, not, well, if it's, if I know what it is, it's fine. I think it's just like, um,

• 20:58Rich Roll?

  Surprise.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  It, as fast as possible, figuring out what the sound is and what it means and things like that. If you can make sense of what it is, it's like, okay, fine. And usually you can do that pretty quickly, you know, just things like that. But yeah, just, I guess it's, it's really a combination of these types of things and then kind of missing it also. The intensity, the bond over there that you form and you, you hold with these people. And then you come home and I had to play with the National Guard unit, the combat engineers. And so when we got back, we kind of went to our respective units. I got pulled from my current unit to go with this other unit. So I didn't know them, but

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I got to them quickly and they were awesome. It was a really well put together unit. And so we got home and then went our separate ways. And so you kind of lose touch a little bit too. And so I moved down to Nashville eight years ago. And then I didn't see anybody I served with anymore. And so I also made the mistake of not becoming involved with organizations that were in place, like the VFW, American Legion, AMVETS, those sorts of things. I just didn't, I didn't do it. And I think a lot of us maybe make similar mistakes, just not

• 22:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  continuing to try to.

• 22:18Rich Roll?

  Did you have a sense that you were suffering from PTSD? Or were you trying to pretend that you weren't? Or did you think you were fine? Like when you first got back? What was that, emotionally, what did that feel like? Like, did you feel like you were in trouble and this needed to be dealt with? Or were you just trying to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and move on with your life?

• 22:40Speaker 01

  I think it was both, but we didn't. It was a very quick out processing. Like, they're like, are you good? All right, cool. Are you good? Okay, cool. So, and then we go home. I think I would like to believe I was fine and everything. I know I felt like maybe I didn't relate with people so much. And I also avoided questions, not because they were maybe too painful to answer or something like that. But it takes so much to even paint the picture and then go into the story or go into the experience, good or bad, really. And then you kind of only share some of those connections with the people that you were physically there with. And so if you don't see them all the time anymore,

• 23:25Speaker 01

  you start to feel kind of alienated. And then you start isolating.

• 23:30Rich Roll?

  A big part of that is a normal reaction, right? Like, if you're in a super intense situation and then it ends, there's going to be an acclimation period to that. So, the issue then becomes, when does it tip over into a persistent trauma that is festering beneath the surface? You know, when you explain that, I keep thinking about that scene in The Hurt Locker where Jeremy Renner is like at the grocery store when he gets back. And it's very simple in its aesthetic, but it's so powerful because you realize like he's looking at products on the shelf and he just can't relate to anything because, you know, he's used to a completely different way of living his life. And now, suddenly, like overnight, that's all changed

• 24:14Rich Roll?

  and he's supposed to just acclimate to normal civilian existence. And of course, that's... You know, close to impossible for a lot of people, I would imagine.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:24Rich Roll?

  For anybody, really.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  That aspect was very, actually coming back and waiting in line at a grocery store and people complaining about standing, waiting in line, or, or like you said, those kinds of little things. It's like, do you know how bad it could actually be? Like, do you have any idea how good you have it? Like, those kinds of thoughts come in, I think, shortly after you get home, or right away. I think they kind of fade as you get more used to those comforts again. But you kind of, and eventually you almost kind of crave having nothing again. That, that's another reason why this bike trip was so amazing, too, was the simplicity, the lack of things, making something out of nothing, having that challenge. And, you know, I think that comfort and convenience leave very little room for appreciation.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  And you really realize what you do have, I think the less you have, the, the more you feel you have, or the more you're likely to give, or something like that. There's something to that.

• 25:22Rich Roll?

  Well, it's this weird, confusing soup, like, I imagine. Because on the one hand, you have this sense of gratitude for how good we have it after having an experience like that. And then at the same time, to be suffering, I would imagine, kind of enhances the feelings of confusion and guilt, right? Because you're like, it's so good, and I'm back here, and I'm safe, and everything's fine, so why do I feel terrible?

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Right, or, I, I think one of my biggest problems that I was facing regularly was, why am I here and my friends aren't? That kind of thing. Or it should have been me, that sort of thing. And you don't have to have been deployed to combat, or even be a military veteran, to understand that. That happens, you know? It can happen to anyone, anytime, losing someone, that survivor's guilt, they call it. But that was a huge factor for me, was the, was the guilt of coming home without, we lost three, so.

• 26:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So when you come back, is there a process by which you are funneled through, like, the Veterans Administration to have you checked out, to make sure that you're mentally sound? Like, how does all of that work? And how do so many people fall through, fall through the cracks? Like, what is not working? What's broken? And, you know, what, what would you fix if you could?

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think ultimately, I think it comes down to the person being forthcoming with some of the problems, but we don't tend to do that.

• 26:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  And I know I

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  You're trained to compartmentalize.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Train not to complain, you know? Yes, yeah, definitely. And so I think that they have a system in place, but maybe it's not as persistent. You know, if you have a conversation with a veteran, it's sometimes it takes several of those interactions to even scratch the surface of maybe what they're thinking or feeling, especially if maybe they they feel like they could have done more or should have done more. That's the last thing they want people to know about is they don't want to be judged for not having done more severe things, let alone have someone know that they that they feel these that they have these issues based on having not or done not done as much as they feel they should or could have, which is almost never the case.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  They we all do everything we can. We follow orders, we, you know, to the best of our ability. We would never want to come home without anybody. But yeah, that the guilt aspect I think exists in in every combat vet that has been deployed with the unit that comes home without somebody from every war, you know? That's across the board, an issue.

• 28:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, the statistics are are pretty shocking. Every day, 22 vets take their lives. I mean, it's so incredibly disheartening to hear that. And as somebody who has no military experience, my only basis of understanding is is what I read in the news or what I kind of, you know, come across here and there. And my sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Veterans Administration is overwhelmed. There's too many people. It's not adequately staffed and

• 28:44Rich Roll?

  Soldiers either don't avail themselves of those services, or those services become, they're unavailable, or they have to wait forever to get an appointment. And because they're overwhelmed, it's very much a, you know, a way of just getting prescribed medication. So you have all of these veterans who are over-medicated, walking around, that then contributes to this opioid crisis that we're experiencing right now, without really getting to the root cause or a healthy protocol for crawling out of this hole that so many people are experiencing.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yes, it is, I mean, it's, it comes down to either, or it's mainly two things. It's an individual responsibility to seek the help and then having everything in place just so to facilitate the help needed, so.

• 29:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, do they have therapists and things like that?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, they do.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  And how many people actually take advantage of that?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  I'm not sure about that. I know that I personally went, the VA has, I mean, they have psychologists, psychiatrists. I was never really into the one-on-one kind of counseling. It's, sometimes it's difficult for me to funnel my thoughts into words and everything, and like, paint that picture, like I mentioned. And so, I'd rather kind of hang, I think it's, the most helpful thing is to be around other veterans and socialize with other veterans, but that, if you're isolating, that's not possible. But back to the VA, they do have that in place. They have counselors and a whole network of help for that. So while they do prescribe,

• 30:30Speaker 01

  they are, they're, I think, quick to prescribe, you know, the, maybe pain medication, or a.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Like the mood lightener type of medications and everything like that. They also have all the other options in place, too. They even have activities you can do. But that's there. I think it's really, for me, it was going, actually going there and admitting or that I'm doing these things, feeling all these things and all that. I didn't want to, because it becomes real, like you said earlier.

• 31:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Because if you admit it, then you actually have to confront it.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Right. And then there's labels on stuff and there's categories. I didn't want to be lumped into something. It's like, no, I got this. You know, I totally, I'm totally in control. And that, that control just, sometimes it just sneaks out, sneaks away from you. And then, you know, kind of a darkness kind of swoops in here and there. And that's kind of what was happening to me and what did happen, which is another big reason I, I kind of left on my, my journey.

• 31:35Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. I mean, my sense is that there are a lot of veterans who, because they're trained to compartmentalize and, and sort of, you know, just take care of business. It makes it less likely that they're going to seek that help. And, you know, as you know, the longer you try to repress that kind of trauma, it's going to come out sideways, one way or the other. It's either going to come in the form of depression, or suicidal ideation, or domestic violence, or drug addiction, or alcoholism. Like, it will manifest at some point. And in your case, I mean, the gestation period was quite a long period of time. It's not like you, you know, wrestled with this right away. I mean, you just did your bike trip. You were deployed in 2003.

• 32:19Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's been, you know, quite a journey for you to come, get to this place.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  I didn't really, actually, I didn't think I was wrestling with it. Like you said, the, I called my journey a vicious cycle because obviously it's a bicycle. But there's been these other-

• 32:33Rich Roll?

  It's a great name, by the way.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. But it's like, you know, there's all these other meanings. There, I've been through some vicious cycles and. It was a mixture of maybe, you know, bad decisions and really good decisions that didn't feel like fulfilling enough or feel like enough.

• 32:49Rich Roll?

  What do you mean by that?

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Now, the, when I first got back, basically, I began eating, emotionally eating, I would say, and I totally abused food, I really did. When I, when I got out of the service in 2009, I just, it became kind of an answer to everything, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't drugs. I drank a bit, but it was the food. I mean, I equated it with every emotion. And it was my punishment, my reward, it was everything. And I gained 100 pounds after I got out.

• 33:24Rich Roll?

  I read that, that's crazy.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  And, yeah, I was, I was, that was definitely part of it, is I was this strong, capable machine of a person, and how could I let this happen? And it just spiraled down so fast. Now, that I, I got a grip on. I met another combat veteran, she owned a gym, and she helped me lose, you know, her workouts were basically boot camp, they were boot camp. And I, I lost that, the 100 pounds in a year in 2012.

• 33:57Rich Roll?

  By working out and just eating right and taking care of yourself. So you had, you know, enough sense about you to address that situation. What was going on inside, like, emotionally?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  When I, when I became heavier, took control of it, like, or just?

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  Both.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  I guess I didn't, part of it was I didn't have to, I had, the accountability wasn't in place anymore. I had, my neck started hurting about halfway through my deployment. I started getting these kind of shooting pains up the back of my head. And so it worsened more and more. My knees were pretty banged up from wear and tear, and those were worsening too.

• 34:37Rich Roll?

  What caused the neck pain?

• 34:39Speaker 01

  It wasn't an ice, like an isolated incident. It was just, I don't know if it was like the Kevlar, the bouncing. It just became really painful like halfway through. And then I didn't, I got some, some help while I was over there, but really I didn't complain too much about it. And eventually it had become worse. I was encouraged to talk about it with my leadership and everything. And so they did it eval and ended up marking me non-deployable. So I wasn't even able to deploy with my unit again.

• 35:10Rich Roll?

  That's why you never, you didn't go back for a second tour.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Right, right. I ended up getting, I would have been a lifer. I loved the military.

• 35:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  It's, I, I've said before, it's, it's the one thing that's ever made complete sense in my life. And it's been very difficult to try to fill that gap since getting out. Cause I really did love it. It was definitely my calling.

• 35:29Rich Roll?

  And your life's very regimented. They tell you where to go and everything is very structured for you.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  You don't have to really do too much of your own thinking. Here's what you eat.

• 35:38Rich Roll?

  They don't encourage a lot of that, do they?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  No, no, no. And so, um, it's highly discouraging in fact, but no, but I, I got out. I didn't have the accountability in place and, uh, it was, it's such a normal social thing to do is eat, you know? But you can't hide it forever, like some other things that, you know, you can visually tell someone's got some problems.

• 35:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The weird thing is that you're somebody who was trained to be super disciplined, right? And you're all about that.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  And capable.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  Living in a very regimented way, and then that just falls apart.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I was, I was supposed to be very capable and strong. You know, it was never about being some, it wasn't ever a superficial or reason for being in shape. It was like, you're supposed to be able to do these things and do these things when needed and help others and keep others safe. And so I let that go and I just got really down on myself, obviously. And then it's, I kept the, you know, in, as a reaction to being down, it was food, food. So.

• 36:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, like you said, I just, I did those, like a high intensity, full body workout, five days a week and just ate really clean. You know, no sugar, lower carb.

• 36:57Rich Roll?

  Lose the 100 pounds. It takes like a year, so you did it right. You've kept it off.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  For the most part.

• 37:03Rich Roll?

  For the most part. You look great. But the interesting thing is that that didn't necessarily solve your major malfunction.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:15Rich Roll?

  Which is addressing the underlying trauma.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:17Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  I mean, I'm sure it elevated your mood and helped you in many different ways, but it wasn't necessarily a cure to the main thing that you were contending with that was driving the emotional eating to begin with.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yes. It was that lack of fulfillment. I think that sense of purpose that I gained from serving, I couldn't achieve it anymore. And I started a photography business in 2005 when I was still in Ohio and I continued it to Nashville and I had that and it's going fine too. I still do it. I love it, you know? And I like bringing that joy to people, capturing their moments and everything. And part of me is like, you never know when you're gonna lose someone. It's really important to get these photos for these people so that makes me do better at my job also. It's kind of a morbid angle because you never know when you'll lose someone, but photography became very important to me. And it was a great

• 38:13Speaker 01

  outlet, a healthy outlet, just like working out. And after a while, my passion was dwindling from these things. Working out became a passion. And actually, the reason I had to kind of stop working out is I had to have a major surgery in 2016.

• 38:36Rich Roll?

  Right. This is like a big deal though. Explain, tell me.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  I downplay everything.

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. Come on. We got time here. I want to hear the details. We kind of glossed over your deployment too. Tell us what it was really like. Like, I know, you were diagnosed with a grapefruit-sized cyst in your ovaries, right?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:57Rich Roll?

  Like, that's no small thing.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, it was a... It was huge. So, but it was attached to one of my ovaries and they, there was also a cancer scare involved. And so they said the best case scenario, the best case scenario, I would lose an ovary. The worst case is I do have cancer that have to do a full hysterectomy and then remove part of the lining of like my heart and lung or something like that. It was really, I was like so drastic. I had to sign off on all these different scenarios, but um, this was Thanksgiving in 2016. And so I was in, I was in really great shape then. And I was helping other people lose weight. I then my accountability was being there for others than helping them,

• 39:38Speaker 01

  which was really important to me. I was helping others again. And um, so I had this surgery I had to, as soon as they found it, I had to stop working out right away. If it had ruptured it, it could have been life threatening. So I had this major surgery and the recovery, I have like a huge scar. I mean, the recovery was, is I think when everything kind of came to a head, because I, I'd lost all that weight. I felt like I was in a pretty good place. I was helping other people break out of their own prison, you know, because being heavy is a physical and mental prison. It really is. You're just trapped in your own body. And it was really nice to play a part in helping others with that. So I felt like I was giving back and helping in that way.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  And then I couldn't do that. And then the recovery was very long. I couldn't sit up in bed by myself for a while. I mean, it was just, I just felt completely defeated. Like, why am I even try, it's like, am I gonna start at square one again? You know, do I really want to? You know, you just kind of talk yourself out of life, I guess.

• 40:42Rich Roll?

  What is that connection between PTSD and, and hopelessness?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  I think just that kind of a has been mentality in a way, where you were this, you almost felt like a god or something, like you could do anything, like nothing could stop you. And um, you felt like you were really doing something important. You were making a real difference. And then, once you don't have that, it, it takes so much to achieve those things in your head. And once you don't really have that anymore. You, it happens kind of quickly where you just, oh, I can't do this now. And so I'll become less active and then, oh, my body hurts more because I don't have my muscle base and then I'm depressed because I'm in pain. And then, uh, you just go down.

• 41:35Rich Roll?

  It's a vicious cycle.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah, really, it really is. So you, it happened, it's this downward spiral happens very quickly. Before you know it, you're talking yourself out of having even people that are, you don't want to, also, you don't really want to bother anybody with any of this stuff. Because you do think you can handle yourself at first. And then when you think there's a problem, it's like, no, I'm supposed to be strong for others and I'm supposed to be the rock and pull others over their walls and I'm good at it, you know, like, we're good at being strong for other people. And so when it comes down to helping ourselves or, or spending the time on ourselves, I think it gets trickier there.

• 42:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  We're not as good at that, I think, at least I wasn't.

• 42:14Rich Roll?

  And to not have that, that bond, that connection, that camaraderie when you return. I mean, there's nothing, you know, you can go to the gym and help other people lose weight, but it's still, it's not the same. And then you pick a career that essentially has you kind of doing your own thing by yourself, right? Like you go and you shoot up pictures of other people, but ultimately you're, it's like a solo business person situation. So you're not in a member of a team, you're not, you know, it's almost like, uh, and, and, and the sense I have is that you're lacking that connection, but rather than seeking it

• 42:54Rich Roll?

  out in a healthy way, you're doing the opposite, like you're isolating further and further and further, which is only exacerbating the condition.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yes, and then instead of helping or making a difference anymore, you're letting people down by coming up with reasons to not, uh, get together with them or not answering really messages as often, things like that. So then there's guilt compiles.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  I think that was the biggest factor for me was is this underlying guilt and then this building guilt.

• 43:30Rich Roll?

  Were the people, were there people in your life who were saying, hey, Sarah, you know, I think there's something going on here that you need to deal with?

• 43:38Speaker 01

  No one knew.

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  Everyone was like, thought you were fine?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I, I had that on lock.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  Even when you, even when you gained a hundred pounds?

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Now that I, well, I dressed really well to hide it, but I, I thought I was just this master of disguise and a few people said something, but it was usually things that would make me just go eat more like, or they've asked, you know, have you gained weight? I'm like, you already know the answer to that question, you know, so I'm gonna go get Taco Bell and.

• 44:09Rich Roll?

  But your parents weren't worried about you or?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  I think maybe it just, people didn't want to hurt my feelings or something too, but they may have made a comment or two and I of course talked my way out of anything being wrong or I didn't, just didn't want them to worry and but it really did get.

• 44:25Rich Roll?

  Was there a conscious awareness that you were trying to mask something or did you really believe that you were fine?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  No, no, I, I actually was, I maybe in the back of my mind, I thought to myself, if I eat enough, then I, maybe it'll, it'll kill me or something, maybe, and it almost, I, my cholesterol was in the high two eighties or something like that. It got pretty out of control with my health and.

• 44:52Rich Roll?

  And you're in like your twenties, right?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. I was twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine and that's pretty young, so, but I don't, I'm really glad that I caught it. I think it's, it came down to meeting the right people too. If I hadn't met my friend slash trainer, I don't know, I, I don't know if I'd be here, you know, I might've had a stroke or heart attack like they projected within five years.

• 45:19Rich Roll?

  But your doctor was telling you to get it under control.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Well, I wasn't going to a doctor.

• 45:24Rich Roll?

  Oh, you weren't?

• 45:25Speaker 01

  I hadn't been to a doctor and.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Probably seven or eight years.

• 45:30Rich Roll?

  So what was the impulse to seek out the trainer? Like, how did that begin? How did you go from?

• 45:35Speaker 01

  We met on a whim in a parking lot and someone had been bothering her and I was staying with her while she waited for the police to come. And that's how we met. And so we got to talking. She said she was a combat vet and I was like, no way, me too. And, and I was like, oh, she said she owned a gym. She knew that I was not happy as a veteran who was that size. And she reached out. She's like, I have a gym here and I help people all the time. I used to be in the 300s myself, which was huge because she really understood the, that prison I mentioned. And so, and she was a veteran and that's, it just came out, it came down to meeting the right person and letting them help, letting them help me save myself.

• 46:20Rich Roll?

  That bond.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Which is also a big factor in the bicycle trip too, is the letting people encourage you and support you.

• 46:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Being open about stuff.

• 46:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like first, like being willing to raise your hand and say, I need help. Not just asking for help, but also being willing to receive it when it's being offered, right?

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  Very difficult.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yes, usually it's dismissive kind of a downplay. I got it. I'm, I'm fine. How are you? Like, how can I help you?

• 46:46Rich Roll?

  Deflecting.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yes, very much so, which that, that is all I really want to do is, is better other people. Like, that's when I feel the best is when I'm bettering others.

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  I would say, which that was a huge thing that was missing in my, in my life, I think. Making huge differences for people.

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  Do you think that had you not been diagnosed with the cyst and you would just continue to train and help people in the gym? That, that you would have been okay? Or do you think that you were still not really getting at the core issue? Like, it would have manifested one way or the other, but the cyst kind of? That situation and being where you were really compelled, forced to stop and be with yourself and be unable to distract yourself with external things like going to the gym, really forced you to confront it in a way that maybe would have taken a lot longer?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 47:42Rich Roll?

  Had that not occurred?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  I think so. It was a blessing and a curse that it happened, I think.

• 47:47Rich Roll?

  Almost like a gift, right?

• 47:48Speaker 01

  In a lot of ways, yeah. Well, sitting here now and looking back, yeah, it definitely was. I think I was confusing maybe happinesses with distractions. You know, I would go to the gym and forget everything and it was wonderful. And then I wouldn't sleep at night or something like that. So I think this kind of forced me to want to try to live again. Because I did have, you know, the cancer scare and all the, it's such a scary word anyway. There wasn't any present, by the way. I forgot to mention. That was a huge relief.

• 48:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, your surgery went fine.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. It was better than the best case scenario. They didn't have to remove anything but the cyst. So I guess things got kind of bad when I realized that I might not have the option of having kids. I've always been on the fence anyway, but it's nice to have the option. And I don't know, it all just came together. And I guess this kind of, having this surgery and going through that took me to a bit of a breaking point there because it got kind of dark right, right up until the surgery.

• 48:57Rich Roll?

  So what, what was the lowest moment? The darkest day?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  I think, I think it was prob, it was probably, it was the day right before I bought my bicycle, right before I bought the bicycle. And I just, I knew after the surgery I'd be limited. My, my neck had gotten bad, my knees, I felt like I'd have to start all over. I had no muscle base anymore for, because that's when I'm not really in pain is when I have the muscle in place. And

• 49:32Speaker 01

  I guess I just, the photography was great, but I just didn't think I'd ever achieve that sense of fulfillment again. And now I can't even go to the gym and have that outlet anymore. I just felt like I just didn't even, I'm just not capable of, of anything anymore.

• 49:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Was it depression? Was there suicidal ideation? Was there, you know, what was the mindset?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  There, yes, I definitely was, I guess I can say that I was fantasizing about it. And that evening was probably the closest I'd ever come in my head to, to an attempt. I hadn't attempted suicide prior. And I just decided that, that I can't do that to my, I've lucked out with very loving family and I couldn't do that to my parents. So.

• 50:33Rich Roll?

  But even in that moment, you didn't have friends or family around that had a sense that you were going sideways?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  No, no one really knew I was going through any of this until I, I made a Facebook post about it. And just was a little more vocal about some of the stuff I was going through.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  What did you say in that?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Basically, I said a lot of the things that I've said here. I expressed and explained that since getting out of the military, it feels like I've kind of lived a whole lifetime and there's really nothing left to do. That's kind of where I'd arrived in my mind. I said that I've had these nagging, gnawing thoughts that I'm really only living life to fulfill some sort of obligation to the people that love me and nothing more. And I felt so guilty about saying that because everybody that cares for me is probably like, You know, I thought she has a great time with me. I could have done or said something differently.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  And usually people end up thinking that after it's too late. That's why I decided I need to get this post out there. And the reason I waited is because I, the bike trip was already in motion. I was like, here's what I'm doing about it. So I didn't want to just come out and say all the negatives.

• 51:48Rich Roll?

  Gotcha. So you post, you went public with it after you were already kind of well into the solution?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yes, I wanted to have a game plan. So people knew, I didn't want people to worry. I never want anyone to worry about me. That's the thing. And so that's why I've kind of mastered this. There's a lot that happens behind a smile, really in anybody, you know, and I gotten pretty good at, I make people laugh. Like that's my thing. I love making people are sure people are having a good time and that they're safe around me. But I made that post and then I described the, the plan for the journey. And the support was unbelievable. It wasn't like I expected it would be like private messages, you know, you're in my thoughts and if there's anything I can do, you know, stuff like that. People were like, this is amazing. I'm sharing this and maybe other

• 52:38Speaker 01

  veterans will kind of decide to do something about it, or just try to take back some of that purpose for themselves, try to take on a challenge.

• 52:53Rich Roll?

  Well, so when you're in that moment, you were in that darkest, you know, that darkest moment, what was it that clicked inside of you to do something about it? Like, take me from that moment to the moment of deciding that you're gonna get a bike and ride a bike and how this whole ride came together?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I'd been planning the trip with a friend, a friend I met through a mutual friend, a Marine, and we talked about, but I hadn't purchased my bicycle yet. And I was still really struggling and on the fence about, you know, actually going through with it. And I had an evening where I just, I just tend to stare at the wall sometimes for a while and think about big stuff or just anything really. And I get kind of lost in some of that. And I think I'd just convinced myself that I think people would be okay. And that basically it goes back to coming home without my friend, just.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if I deserve to be here and I'm not even taking advantage of the life that has been gifted to me because of someone else's sacrifice and it just really gnaws gnaws at me. It still does, but it's better having, you know, completed this. But um, I, I had kind of a, a game plan for if I'd gone through with, with taking my life and everything. And it was a bit elaborate, but it was kind of like the least, one of the, maybe the least shocking kind of ways. I just didn't wanna hurt anyone or scar anybody.

• 54:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  You know, so, um, that night, I was, I was, I was right there. I'll say I was like right there and I ended up just falling asleep. And so, the next day I was like, that's it. It's, I can't do one more night like that. I'm not gonna get through it. I'm not gonna get through it. So, I literally just woke up and went and purchased my bicycle the next day.

• 55:05Rich Roll?

  Right to the bike store?

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  And you had had, so the plan was, the, the plan was already in motion to do a ride prior to that. You just hadn't taken any action on it yet.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Right. I, purchasing the bicycle was like the, the decis-, like that's a decision maker.

• 55:22Rich Roll?

  And had you been a cyclist? Like, had you ridden a bike before?

• 55:28Speaker 01

  No, not, well, not since ninth grade.

• 55:30Rich Roll?

  Other than just being a kid's.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  No, then no. Grade school was the last time I'd ridden a bicycle. So, but it comes right back. It really does. I, I took the bicycle.

• 55:41Rich Roll?

  The adage is true. Once you learn how to ride a bike.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Riding a bike and everyone would say it and I'd be like, huh huh. And then I got on it and I'm like, okay, that's why that exists. It, it really does come right back. And um, so I took, I got a, a Kona Sutra, a steel frame Kona Sutra from a bike shop in Nashville called Halcyon and. I went in a few times, didn't take on a test ride. I was honestly, I was nervous, but I didn't want them to know. I was like, no, I can't, I don't really have time right now. I was just kinda looking around and I was like, I'm gonna fall. Like, I, I, I didn't want to embarrass myself.

• 56:14Rich Roll?

  It's intimidating to go into a bike shop when you don't really know what's going on. I remember the first time I did that. Yeah, it's, it's, it's weird because you think everyone's an expert and they're gonna like, you know, if you're, you're afraid to ask a stupid question or whatever.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 56:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  I mean, I mess up all the time and make fun of myself all the time, but I, I don't wanna like sound stupid. No one wants to sound stupid.

• 56:35Rich Roll?

  But was the idea you were gonna ride across the United States already? So, okay, so you, there was this grand vision.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Yep. I just needed to.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  Get the bike.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Buy that bike. Yeah. So I went in and talked with one of the owners and she's like, do you want me to go on a test ride with you? And, uh, cause she, I think she could tell I was really hesitant about trying it. And so we, we did, we got on the bicycles and started going down the street and it, it felt unbelievable. It was like unbelievable. The, the wind and the work and all those feelings. I was like, this is, this is great. I can do this. Not only is this fun or whatever, but I can physically, I feel like I can really physically do this. That was a huge fear of mine was do I start out on this and then my physical limitations? I don't wanna fail at anything and I don't wanna commit to something.

• 57:30Rich Roll?

  Bootcamp. You could do it. Well, except with me with the injuries and the pain and stuff.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. With the, I, cause I've had work, chronic like worsening pain over the years. So it's, it's worsening. I've, you know, I've been to the VA for, uh, MRIs and things like that. So they're working with me on trying to help it, but it's been diagnosis, chronic pain that's, that has worsened over the years, unfortunately. So like hiking or really long-term distance hiking and everything, I just can't.

• 58:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Or, or carrying a backpack for a long time.

• 58:03Rich Roll?

  Prescribed like pain meds for that?

• 58:05Speaker 01

  They offered, I uh, I made it a point to not do the narcotics, but they-

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  Did they offer you like oxy?

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Um-

• 58:13Rich Roll?

  What did they offer you?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  I believe it was oxy codeine. But I, I asked specifically not for a narcotic and they, they gave me like 200, 300 ibuprofen, 800 milligram ibuprofen, which I just-

• 58:27Rich Roll?

  Hardcore ibuprofen.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Yes, like the highest one you can get and I only take it when I absolutely have to. Cause I like to know what's going on with my body too. So I try not to do really pain meds cause I will overdo it. As soon as I don't feel pain, it's like, I feel like superwoman. Like I just wanna bust through every while I can find, but-

• 58:44Rich Roll?

  And what did, did, did they ever, were you ever prescribed like SSRIs? Like an anti-depression medication?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Uh, Symbalta, Symbalta. And I actually didn't start taking it. I went, left on the bike trip instead.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  And that was a really good choice, I think. Not that there's anything wrong with it. It is supposed to help with nerve pain and chronic pain too. So it made sense that they prescribed it. I just, once I was out there, I was, I felt wonderful.

• 59:13Rich Roll?

  Freedom.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. Everything about the journey was incredible.

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  So you go out on this test ride and then you come back and you're like, alright, I'm buying this. Like, how did that work?

• 59:22Speaker 01

  That's exactly what happened. We went out, um, we just did some road cycling and I, I got ahead of her real quick. Cause I was starting, honestly, I was starting to tear up. I was so happy that I could do it. You know, not only just with the balance aspect, but my knees didn't hurt. I mean, it was only, you know, a half a mile, but my knees didn't hurt at all. And um, the way I had it positioned where the seat was slightly lower, my, my neck really didn't hurt. Cause I wasn't real hunched, you know, like um-

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Like I'm supposed to be, but I had to make some modifications to my bicycle for my neck. And um, I was just excited. It's like, I, I really believe I can do this. And then I bought that thing. I was like, this is happening.

• 1:00:02Rich Roll?

  And how long after you bought it, did the ride begin?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Less than a month.

• 1:00:08Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Yes, I really only trained for about three weeks.

• 1:00:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  By train, I mean like unweighted 10 mile rides. I was like, yeah, this, you know, this is a cool. I did a 50 miler on, it's called the Natchez Trace Parkway near south Nashville, but Nashville has this, the Music City Bike Way. It's, it's like 30 miles long, goes through all the, a lot of the parks. It's beautiful. So I went out there and that's how I trained. I just rode, rode my bike. Got used to it.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  And you get like the panniers and all that. The idea is you're going to bring all your stuff, right?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Right. Yep. It was a self-supported run and this is a little experience I had. I have always and still call them panniers. All the time. They're, they're panniers. That's what I said, panniers. It's, I have a hilariously small amount of experience, you know, which any, that's a huge factor is that anyone can do it. Really what I did, honest to God, anyone can do what I did, especially after coming out of a major surgery, having the physical pain. No experience whatsoever. It's just.

• 1:01:12Rich Roll?

  Basically no training.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  No, no, no training or.

• 1:01:15Rich Roll?

  Three weeks beforehand, you hadn't ridden a bike since you were 10 years old.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes. Well, ninth grade. I don't know. Whatever that is. A long time ago, like a lifetime ago, several lifetimes ago.

• 1:01:25Rich Roll?

  And, and did you get like a tent and everything? Like you're just basically camp, you're going to camp along the way and just, did you plot, like spend a lot of time figuring out the route and where you wanted to go and?

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  The route was already preset. It's a route by the Adventure Cycling Association. It's called the Transamerica Trail. And it originally goes from Yorktown, Virginia to Astoria, Oregon, but in Pueblo, Colorado. It branches off. You can take what's called the Western Express, which is what I did.

• 1:01:58Rich Roll?

  Takes you to San Francisco.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. I really wanted to cross the Golden Gate for the finish. I just thought it'd be really symbolic. I'd never been there. Just crossing bridges and new beginnings and that, that whole mindset.

• 1:02:11Rich Roll?

  And when you embarked upon this, did you have a sense that this was gonna be a mission, not just for yourself, but to, you know, connect with veterans along the way? And try to be, you know, available and of assistance? Or did that develop over time? Because you kind of had two bites at this apple, right? Which we'll get into.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Yes. The, um, a huge part of it was honoring the friends I lost overseas. And, uh, definitely post-war healing for me. I needed to do something. It was kind of a bit of a hail mary trip, you know? I was kind of at my rock bottom. I, I believe it was my rock bottom. Now, I think I was starting to feel some of the things that some of my friends had been feeling and I'd lost a couple of friends to suicide also, so, um, and it was definitely, I, I wanted to not only help myself, but help others in different ways. I wanted to be a little more vocal about some of the stuff I was dealing with and I

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  just, I didn't think there was any way I could be alone in it, you know? And then just the fact that I'd lost friends to suicide, I wanted to talk more about that too, because I understood that downward spiral and the darkness and how it just swoops in and sweeps you off your feet.

• 1:03:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, what's interesting about that is that typically people that embark upon these kind of adventures, they're, you know, they had their lowest moment or their darkest moment, and then there's the healing period, and then they become whole. And then they decide, okay, now I'm gonna share it. Whether that means riding their bike across the country, or starting a nonprofit, or whatever, um, there's kind of a, you know, that, there's a period of time that elapses in between those two things. And for you, they're like right on top of each other.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:05Rich Roll?

  Like, so you're very close to that dark moment, but you're already like, you're not like just in the solution, you're already, you're already in the advocacy, um, role as well at the same time.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Yes, the, the darkness and the light kind of, it was, it was gonna be one or the other when I bought that bicycle and I chose to do the bicycle thing and... And so I posted on Facebook about it and then I documented as I went, made it public. I liked the added pressure of people following and it fueled me the support and encouragement and everything. I mean, yeah, some people, sure, there's like doubters and stuff or like, but that's, that's totally fine. That's happened to me my whole life. I, I encourage it.

• 1:04:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Like, it's fine.

• 1:04:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you're blogging and you're posting on Facebook and you're very public about this. So, tell me about some of the experiences that you had connecting with veterans along the way.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  There, there were many veterans I ran into and it was amazing and none of, almost none of them were planned.

• 1:05:16Rich Roll?

  So it wasn't like, I'm gonna go to this VFW and, and, and they know I'm coming and I'm gonna talk to them and there's gonna, they're waiting for me?

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  There, there, I wanted to go to more VFWs. There weren't a lot on the route. So I was able to go to some and they were awesome. They didn't really know I was coming. I didn't really broadcast it in that way. I was just, I kinda wanted it to be a little more private, but also let people in on it, kind of a thing, rather than the big spotlight thing. Cause I'm actually really not used to that sort of thing, you know? Cause I am a private person. And so, I guess I sought out veterans in, in the towns I would go through.

• 1:05:57Rich Roll?

  How did you find them?

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  It just happened. Like, literally, I have countless experiences with veterans. I have to write about them. I, I included a bunch in my blog, but there's so many more than that. They were, for us being such a small percent of the population, it felt like we were just everywhere. It's almost like they found me or something. Like, I needed, I needed to find them and vice versa or something. It just, it really was that random. And, which I think made it-

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Way more beautiful and special and having it unplanned, I think resulted in maybe a deeper connection with it being so spontaneous.

• 1:06:34Rich Roll?

  And, and tell me about what it's, you know, what transpires when you make that connection? Like, how is that, um, how and why is that healing, not just for you, but for the other person?

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  I, I think, once you discover that each other is a veteran, you kind of start in this, this different place, I think, um, where you get to skip past a bunch of stuff. And like the small talk thing, or sometimes it takes people years to get kind of close like that. And you can just almost dive into each other. You don't have to skim the surface. You just dive into the conversation. You, you could just start making fun of each other. You could pick on, you know, each other has the same sense of humor, um, similar mindsets. I think a lot of us share the same qualities when we join, like wanting to, the selfless service and the, and all that sort of aspect in there. So you already kind of know who

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  the person is deep down a little bit, and then you can build from, from there. And the sense of humor really is the best part. I mean, sitting there for a half hour and joking on each other is, is therapy. Like, I love that stuff.

• 1:07:53Rich Roll?

  So it wasn't necessarily about making a point of bringing up PTSD as it was just organically connecting with these people?

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  The, the topic almost always got brought up. And if it didn't, I, you know, I tried to talk about some of the stuff I was going through and why I was doing what I was doing. Um, I always made it a point to, because really, I, more than anything, I was asked, like, what are you doing? Why? And then, of course, and if it didn't, I would, I would go and do it eventually after letting them speak also.

• 1:08:25Rich Roll?

  And so what did you say? I mean, what is the response of that? Like, I'm dealing with PTSD and I was at a very dark moment and now I'm doing this to try to reclaim my life?

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Right. That's, that's basically what I would say. I, I explained that it had kind of come to a head, some of the guilt and depression and some of the things. I needed to do something to kind of prove to myself that I wanted and deserved to be here. I needed a new, a big challenge to prove I was still capable of something like this. And it was very important to me to honor the friends I lost by living instead of isolating and not wanting to be here. And then having lost friends to suicide, knowing that there's 22 a day that are doing this. And that I was so close myself. It was kind of a, like a personal intimate testimony to, to that too.

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  And a lot of people didn't know that we were losing 22 veterans a day. It's a lot.

• 1:09:25Rich Roll?

  It's a lot.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  It's, it's so many. I mean, you fight so hard to get back. And I would describe it as the, the war inside is just totally different than the ones we were trained to win.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, very, uh, very well trained to fight the war without, not so well trained to combat the war within. And the war within doesn't go away until it's confronted, does it?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  No, and you can, you can beat it to death in your own head. You can fuel it within seconds, over weeks, without knowing.

• 1:09:57Rich Roll?

  Well, all those skills that you learn in the military work at cross purposes with what, what's required of you to actually get to the other side. Right? So that has to be confusing.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  It can be. There's definitely an internal conflict that's the light in the darkness and what to say, what not to say, who you want to let in and in what ways and I don't know. But on the trip, the more, one of the biggest factors for my, my personal healing was talking to other veterans. And I think that really is like, one of the biggest things we can do for ourselves is to seek out other veterans, spend time, whatever that entails. Like I said, you could just make fun of each other and that's therapy sometimes, you know?

• 1:10:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm somebody who's in long, I've been in recovery for a long time and You know, a core aspect of that is getting together with other, you know, alcoholics and addicts and you have that shorthand and there is that community and there's that connectivity and that accountability that helps people not just get sober, but stay sober. And that's like the most important community to me and my long-term well-being. Without that, I don't know if I would be here. So why would it be any different for what you're going through and what's required for you to heal and to help others heal?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yes, there's a lot of people bond, I think, through struggle and tragedy more powerfully than anything. I think.

• 1:11:36Rich Roll?

  And you have a collective experience that a lot of people can't relate to. You know, that only you truly understand.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:11:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  And even more so, it does come down to individual veterans too, and their struggles and issues vary person to person, which is why it's hard to decipher a one solution to all this. You know, so.

• 1:12:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it all gets thrown under the umbrella of PTSD, but you know, you could be, you know, somebody who suffered a sexual abuse situation or childhood abuse, or you could have, you know, been on a deployment where your best friend gets blown up by, you know, an IED or something like that, like those all fall under that umbrella, but those are all very different things. They're all traumas, but I would imagine, you know, the specifics are important in terms of how you move forward.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, the experiences are all, they all vary and it's almost like a different wounds, similar scars.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  I don't know, when you get around people that you've been through something similar with, so much can go unspoken. Like, you don't have to dive into the darkest things to relate. And especially if you don't focus on comparing, if you focus on relating and listening.

• 1:13:06Rich Roll?

  What were some of the more profound or impactful encounters that you had with veterans along the way? Like, are there a particular one that stands out?

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Yes, there are several, actually. And I would say specifically Vietnam veterans.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  The insight I gained from them was mind-blowing. They've been dealing with things a lot longer, and they didn't stop fighting when they came home. Like, when they got back. I mean, I can't imagine that. Well, I got a welcome-home ceremony, you know? I can't imagine going through something like that and then coming back to that. And they worked so hard to pave the way for my generation of combat veterans. And so, basically, the consensus is, it doesn't get any easier. You just need to figure out ways to deal with it, and not tough it out, but just know that it probably, or might not get easier, and have that in mind, and just kind of work with it.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  You know, don't stop trying to help yourself. And they're all close. They're pretty, I think, tight-knit, or they try to stay in contact. I did meet a few along the way that they don't go to anything militarily, or they do stay at home quite a bit. And honestly, from what they told me, that is a big problem for them, too. I think it's just, it just comes down to seeking out each other, putting the effort into

• 1:14:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  just talking to each other about it.

• 1:14:44Rich Roll?

  Did you meet anybody that you were deployed with, or anybody that was in Tucrit when you were there?

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  On my journey?

• 1:14:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  No, no. Everyone I had to play with was in Ohio. So, my route was Virginia, Kentucky, Illinois, Kansas.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and California. It was so far south.

• 1:15:05Rich Roll?

  What was the hardest part of the ride?

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Well, I, I don't mean to, every country or every part of the country presented totally different challenges, like the, the Appalachians, starting east to west, just starting right into the Appalachians was challenging.

• 1:15:21Rich Roll?

  Right, so you're going into the wind the whole time.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Yes, the headwind.

• 1:15:23Rich Roll?

  You made it hard for yourself from the get-go by deciding to go east to west.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yes, the, the headwind was, especially in the Rocky Mountains, that the headwind was relentless. And then you would crest, well, then the mountains were difficult alone, but then you would start to crest and you're like, oh my gosh, it's the summit. And then huge headwind and you almost like go backward. But yeah, the headwinds were a challenge for sure. But um, honestly, I think the biggest threat along the way, it wasn't people, like everyone thought it would be, it was the heat. I feel like the heat was this little sneaky ninja that in the Ozarks, it was the hu- the humidity was nuts.

• 1:16:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Uh, just yesterday, I had two women in here, um, who are endurance athletes and, and one of whom, uh, did Ram Race Across America, like her and a teammate. They did it, what, eight days? I think they did, yeah, in eight days, they rode across America. Uh, and she was saying that the hardest part was, it was the Ozarks, right? The Appalachians or the Ozarks? I think, I think of the Ozarks. She was like, yeah, the Rockies were hard, but like the Ozarks were like super hard. I mean, they go west to east, so they're coming up the other side from where you rode. And I'm sure it wasn't the same route, but, um, she was saying, yeah, they were steeper and windy and like brutal.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, they just come out of nowhere. And like, I, I must've been just super geographically challenged. I thought after the Appalachians, it was just gonna flatten out for me. And I was super excited and that's, the Ozarks started, so. When I hit Kansas, that everyone told me, well, by everyone, I mean, quite a few people told me that I would hate Kansas. It's boring. You can see as far as, you know, you can't. I loved Kansas after the Appalachians and the Ozarks. It was, it was like a dream. It was amazing.

• 1:17:16Rich Roll?

  No hills for the next however many days. Yeah.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Yes. And the straight line, it's great. You could just kinda let your mind race instead. Instead of you like going crazy, it's just a steady.

• 1:17:27Rich Roll?

  Did you listen to music or audiobooks or?

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:31Rich Roll?

  You did. Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  I listened to music every day. On the trickier roads, I'd leave like my left earbud out, you know, so I can hear the cars and everything. But music was huge on this thing. My playlist was super random and, but different songs were perfect with different cadences and intensities. And then of course, just the mood, where my thoughts were at that day, the music I would just pick to cater to that. So.

• 1:17:56Rich Roll?

  Man, I can't, I can't listen to music for a long periods of time. Like I need something else to focus my brain on. So I would listen to podcasts or audiobooks or something like that.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  I should. Oh, another thing is the sounds of nature were amazing. I mean, if I knew I'd be in a heavily wooded area or something like that, I would just turn it off and just listen. You can just hear your tires on the pavement and then all the, all the sounds around you. It was just wonderful.

• 1:18:21Rich Roll?

  And how did you deal with food? I mean, were you ever in a situation where the next place to get something to eat was too far away? Or did you make sure you had enough packed with you all the time?

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I always carried three days of food on me. And I mainly took oatmeal. Oatmeal was huge for energy and everything. It's almost like my body knew exactly what to do with it. And I could just go and go and go with oatmeal. So I had like my cook set and my food. Bananas were helpful, but they're heavy.

• 1:18:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  But yeah, I would carry three days of food on me just in case.

• 1:19:00Rich Roll?

  And did you ever come, when you would come into a city, would you be like, I'm going to, I'm getting a hotel room. I'm going to take a shower.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Yes. I, my, I think my favorite part one at night was the camping though. Like that was my very favorite was to end the day. And just sleep under the stars and listen to everything I just cycled through and the air and everything. I don't know. I love roughing it so much. That was a huge plus for the trip for me.

• 1:19:30Rich Roll?

  So you get into Colorado and then you have a unfortunate encounter with a truck?

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:36Rich Roll?

  What happened?

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  I was, it was the first day into the Rocky Mountains. So I was coming up on my first incline in the Rockies after going through Kansas. And I was on a curve and this, this big black truck came over. He was just starting to come over more and more. So I went over, but there really wasn't a shoulder. It was just sand. And so I went-

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  Coming towards you?

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  No, behind me, behind me. I watched my rear view like a hawk too. So he just kept veering right, veering right. So I did too. And I went off the road, went into the sand and then fell back into the lane and just missed his, he was pulling a trailer. So I just missed his trailer and then landed in the lane. There was a car tailgating the truck that didn't see me because they were so close. So I threw my arm up real quick and they swerved around my head, basically. It was so loud, the sound of the tire. When I'm at a red light and someone's goofing off and they peel out, I still like, you know, that sound is so distinct and it was so piercing. And so the night before, I ran

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  into, have you heard of Team Rubicon?

• 1:20:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  They're, they're much bigger now. They're awesome. A lot of veterans, mostly veterans are in there. And they were working on a project locally. There'd been some fires and then mudslides and then flooding. So they were clearing up some of the rivers and creeks and everything. And they were working down the hill that day and they heard the tires squeal.

• 1:21:06Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  They're like, we wondered why there wasn't a crash afterward. And I was like, oh, that was me not getting run over. No big deal. But I partially tore my PCL ligament in my knee. And I stayed in Colorado Springs for like, two weeks, trying to recover. Cause I didn't want to go, I wanted to continue.

• 1:21:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  So it just wasn't getting better. I waited. I went to the VA a couple of times. Of course, they're like, change your socks, take Motur and drink water. You know, you'll be, you're cool, you're cool like three days, three days tops. You'll be back in the game. So I did everything right. I elevated, I did all the, all that stuff. So I got on my bicycle after two weeks, flat ground, no weight, and it swelled right up. And I, I knew it was, it wasn't good. So I ended up going back to Nashville. I had to let it heal then over the winter and then I had to wait for winter to end because the Rocky Mountains. I was starting literally back into my first mountain the day I started back.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  So the winters last a lot longer at the top of the summits. So I had to wait till, let's see, I started back on June 2nd from Pueblo. So I went back slightly on the route, like a day or two back. And Pueblo was very special to me. They actually had a send off. They felt bad it happened in their state and I was like, one bad apple doesn't. Yeah, it was, oh, I just, it was mind blowing, really. The, the whole trip really was. The kindness was nuts. And they had a send off there and there's a bike shop there, Great Divide. And they, they tuned my bike up for free for me and everything. And they, there was a group of cyclists that rode with me that first day back, back out. It's cool.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  It was really odd. The support was incredible. It really fueled me to, it's like, I'm definitely finishing this. That, that first day back, there was an incline and I knew that that would kind of set the tone. And I, I busted up that thing. I couldn't, oh yeah, I got up that. It was so liberating to come off. There's nothing worse than being athletic or in the middle of something like that. And having an injury and going through that recovery, that's what kind of brought things to a head to begin with. I was like, cool, another vicious cycle. I made it halfway, just over halfway. And, but I'm like, no, no, no, not, not this time. I'm like, you have to finish what you start.

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  When you had to go back home and nurse that injury, how did you prevent yourself from succumbing to another vicious cycle and falling into a depression and emotional eating? And, you know, how did you put the brakes on, on basically falling prey to what had handicapped you previously?

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  I think the difference this time was that I let people in and I had this support system in place. And there were all these people that were encouraging me that I was making a difference for them also, that I was inspiring them and answering their messages. I would message with probably a dozen, maybe two dozen vets a day. Like, you know, hey, this is inspiring me to be more active, or I'm gonna start this thing, I'm gonna hike this and do that. And like, I write your story and like, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm just, you can do, trust me, you can do it. And so I was having all these conversations and interactions with other veterans through my Facebook message or Facebook page. And

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  all these, I couldn't possibly consider not continuing this time. And so I actually had an army buddy of mine come down for a couple of weeks and help me train and get kind of back on after it had been, after I nursed it for a while. He helped me get back on track and that was super helpful. I just made sure I did everything right. I documented my recovery and everything. I think that pressure really, really helps me. I like to kind of be under pressure.

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the pressure and, and being a member of a community that was quickly growing and of which you were, you know, basically the hub with all these spokes going out everywhere.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  That made me feel awesome. I mean, I love knowing I'm making some kind of difference. So finishing what I started was a no brainer to me. I was gonna do whatever it took to do it. I was like, I'm gonna have to, I mean, it would take me probably losing a leg to not, even then, even then, I mean, whatever it took, I couldn't let these people down or myself. I was like, no, I'm regaining this lust for life. You know, I can feel it happening. I can feel the healing happening. And, um, So that was really my, that was the difference this time really is that I let people in and then it became this totally different cycle. It was beautiful, it was awesome.

• 1:25:51Rich Roll?

  And the idea was, I want to connect with America, this country that, you know, basically I went overseas to serve. I want to get to know the people that live here. What else did you learn about our country? But you know, you're connecting with all these veterans, but what did you not expect to discover? Or what surprised you?

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  The kindness and warmth surprised me in that, another thing that was kind of bumming me out quite a lot actually, is just how divided everything feels anymore. No one's looking for reasons to like each other and it just feels like everyone just kind of hated each other. And especially over the last couple of years with the media, social media, stuff like that is all this negativity all the time. And you already kind of feel alienated enough. And then to kind of come back to a society where no one's really getting along, you know? It is a bummer and that definitely contributed to, you know, me wanting to reconnect with the country and experience people again.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Surprise was that the warmth was overwhelming from east to west.

• 1:27:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I feel like we are very divided right now. And we're sitting here the day after midterm elections. If you're on Twitter or Facebook or on social media in general, if you're watching the news,

• 1:27:23Rich Roll?

  it can be depressing and dire to come into the sense of just how differently so many people see the world and how we're unable to have healthy communication about these things. But when, you know, I go out into communities.

• 1:27:42Rich Roll?

  It doesn't reflect what you're seeing on Twitter. You know what I mean?

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  When you're with people in person, one on one, then I realize maybe we're not really as divided as it appears or that picture that's being painted perhaps isn't as accurate as reality.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you're sitting in front of the person, there's almost like a little more respect is required, you know? And I think people tend to maybe share other people's words and thoughts on social media. They're not having to formulate their own and really think through why they're heated or emotionally charged about things. They're like, yeah, that sort of lines up. I'm going to post this and then they lose friends or people get offended and, you know, it is a problem. Reconnecting with people in person is completely different when you're sitting there with someone. Like you want to give them their chance to talk and vice versa. It's just a lot harder to be rude and dismissive in person, too. I mean, I think people want to get, deep down, they want to get along

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  and be happy with themselves and every, I would think. So it just felt, like I said, very divided and negative. So I wanted to get away from that, too. So I didn't really spend hardly any time on social media. I would do a blog post maybe once every three weeks or something. I could have done way more. I would get messages like, are you alive? Like, can you, can you say something? You know, I want to know how this went. I'm like, I'm sorry, it takes me a while to get my stuff together. Plus, I tried not to be on there too much, but still enough where people know what I'm doing and things. But it was a really nice experience detaching from all of that. And I miss it. I do kind of miss just kind of being out there.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I miss it very much. That's, and I was going to tell you, well, we hadn't talked about the remainder of the trip yet, but coming home is a lot like coming back from a deployment, too.

• 1:29:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was curious about that because now you've done another huge adventure, right?

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:49Rich Roll?

  You have a reacclimation period, different from returning from deployment, but also the prospect of having some kind of big letdown and becoming depressed would be, if not expected, normal, right? So I imagine you were, there was some fear, like, is gonna, am I gonna have that experience again?

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  That's exactly what hap- well, people ask me what I was most afraid of about it, and it was finishing. My honest answer was always finishing. Then what, you know, square one? And just another vicious cycle? That was, that was my biggest fear. And so I decided during my recovery, I really put together a, an idea for a veteran program and nonprofit that I'm, I'm starting in Nashville, taking veterans out in nature, detaching together.

• 1:30:44Rich Roll?

  Waypoint Vets, right?

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  Yes. So.

• 1:30:49Rich Roll?

  So you could return with this mission of, of basically paying forward the experience that you had.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  That's exactly what I want and need to do is, I would always ask people on the trip, what can I, what can I ever do to thank you or pay you? And I said, just pay, you know, continue it, the kindness. That's exactly what I'm gonna do. That's exactly what I've been missing.

• 1:31:09Rich Roll?

  There was that New York Times article that shared your story and the story of a number, number of other veterans who have had similar experiences to your own. And they mentioned this organization called WarriorExpeditions.org, right? So some guy who like, basically had the same epiphany that you had. And it's like, look, we need to get these guys home and get them out in nature. And their stories about veterans coming home and walking the Appalachian Trail, or just really having that quietude, that silence, that, you know, ability to phase themselves back into a sense of normalcy slowly and over time, that I think we lack.

• 1:31:51Rich Roll?

  And I, and as I recall, there was a story in there about how that used to be, like, I can't remember where it was, maybe you remember. That used to be something that was kind of structured, like when I, when I, like the, the soldiers would literally walk from wherever their battlefield was back to wherever they lived and it could be, take weeks or something like that. And that space allowed them to decompress sufficiently to ward off some of these, you know, PTSD symptoms. But when you just get on a plane, you know, one day you're in Decrete and the next day you're in Ohio, you know, that's gotta be super weird.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  It's like, what just happened?

• 1:32:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  It's so quick. So yeah, taking the time and consciously tackling some of the things, getting away from the stimuli daily, all these little daily decisions and these little mundane things we worry about every day, just eliminating those from the equation, you can really do not only soul searching, but um, you can kind of hash through a lot, like what, what do I really need to be thinking about all the time? Um, cause it simplifies your life. And so you can, you can also tackle big things to simplify your thought processes, your daily thought processes. Like on the road, it was so simple. Um, you, you know what you have

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  to do. You have to cycle this day and then you plan where you end and then you have a plan for food and water and you have everything you need on your bike and you don't need anything from anybody. So you get to enjoy the experience of the day and the experience of meeting the people, you know?

• 1:33:32Rich Roll?

  And then you're happy. And yet we create these lives that are so complicated. We create all these complications because we delude ourselves into thinking that's what's gonna make us happy. But it's actually only when we strip away all of that and get back to kind of the bare necessities.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got home and I didn't even, I still don't know exactly how to dress myself yet. I'm still wearing like the same four things, um, even today.

• 1:33:56Rich Roll?

  You're wearing your cycling kit right now.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:33:57Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Well, it's

• 1:33:58Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  I had to. I had to, but yes, I have worn this otherwise. So it's just, yeah, you just kind of, you don't want to add all that back. If anything, you want to go back out there to where it's normal. And another reason this was so helpful is that it like justified that hypervigilance, having to watch everything. And it's so quick paced and any little thing like a chipmunk could end you out there on a decline. It's funny, but also it's true, like a pine cone, literally, you could lose control and, you know, coming down a mountain, a gust of wind, things like that. Like you have to constantly be on point, you know, watching everything.

• 1:34:39Rich Roll?

  Like you have to be in the military.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, it was really nice to conjure all that back up and those skill sets, just knowing that they were still in place and that it was an environment where I could use them and not feel weird or silly.

• 1:34:54Rich Roll?

  Well, I think in the wake of this adventure, you know, on this issue of, you know, how are you gonna, you know, this fear of completing it and is this gonna set in motion another, you know, vicious cycle that you're gonna have to overcome, you know, the post, you know, elation experience of coming down back to earth and reintegrating yourself back into your life. The distinguishing thing, the difference is that this was part of a healing process, right? Like you're healing as you go by connecting with these veterans, by connecting with your body, by connecting with nature. So when you think back on this

• 1:35:32Rich Roll?

  bike ride, is it the adventure aspect of it? Is it the challenge aspect of doing something that was very difficult and maybe you thought you couldn't do? Was it the connecting with the veterans and just Americans in general? What aspect of that do you think has been the most impactful on your healing process? Or is it just all of those things together?

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  Well, the easy answer would be all of it. And the truest answer would be all of it, but uh.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  I really feel that I wasn't okay. And I'm really no good to anyone unless I'm good to go. And this, the reconnecting, like you said, with your body, with nature and with people. I think it just really takes all three of those things. That's why I want to do this next step. And I felt like my life was changed forever in a really good way. From east to west. I just, I like to relive some of the days randomly throughout my day.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  And I just, I want to facilitate like smaller versions of what I like, you know, experienced firsthand, this healing. I want to help other veterans get a sense of that, or at least introduce them to it.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  I think that's a worthy, that's a worthy venture. You know, we just, you know, we like to say, we support the troops. Thank you for your service. But we don't do very much in terms of supporting those troops once they come home. And part of that is the government's responsibility. And part of that is our responsibility as a community of civilians and how we interact with veterans and how we support them. And making sure that these services are readily available to the veterans in need

• 1:37:45Rich Roll?

  and that an environment is created in which they feel comfortable availing themselves of that, right? Because the statistics are shocking. Twenty-two a day take their life. How many, how many are thinking about it? How many have failed suicide attempts? How many are depressed? How many are over-medicated? You know, I mean, the numbers have to be astonishing, right? The Veterans Administration can't solve all of these problems. And we, as a culture, need to do a better job of raising awareness. About what's going on and finding solutions, supportive solutions to addressing and solving this very big issue.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I've said in my blog, I feel like we have a responsibility to ourselves and each other and our fallen, you know, to help each other, pick each other up and fight through this war inside that we're all facing, just maybe lighter or darker and different, different times for the individual. But it really, I think, comes down to us helping each other. I think the people best equipped to help us are us. And I think people want to help, but don't really know how. And a lot of times, we don't know what to tell them. We don't know.

• 1:39:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's awkward from, as somebody who's a civilian and you encounter a veteran, you don't really know what to say. You know that you don't really understand their situation. You want to say the right thing and you don't know what that is. So you say, "Thank you for your service." And then there's like, "Okay, are we done? What do I say now?" Right?

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:39:30Rich Roll?

  It's awkward. It's weird, right? I'm sure you have this all the time.

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always say, "Thank you for your support." To, I mean, without, without that support and encouragement and that back and forth, it never gets old, you know, to hear a "thank you," even though we, we don't feel we're deserving of the thanks a lot of the times, or we kind of shy away from the compliments or the word "hero" or anything like that. You know, humility is, you know, we think about the people we lost when, when we hear that stuff. And sometimes it's just better to say, "Thank you," and "thank you for your support." Because, you know, like I said, we had a welcome home when we got back. If that wasn't in place, who knows how myself or my friends or

• 1:40:15Rich Roll?

  Right. Most people aren't getting that, though.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:20Rich Roll?

  Do you think that the movies get it right? Like whether it's Hurt Locker? Or did you see "Thank You for Your Service"? Did you see that movie?

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  I haven't seen that one yet.

• 1:40:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:32Rich Roll?

  I'm just curious as to whether you think that Hollywood accurately reflects that experience, or whether it's a glossed over version, or if there is a show or a movie that got it right, what that would be.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  I thought Hurt Locker was very well done. I really did. And I think that, I think they definitely try to be as accurate as they can. They have to, I think, clam it up for the audience. But for me, the parts that get me in the movies is the coming back and that feeling-

• 1:41:07Rich Roll?

  Did you see Coming Home?

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 1:41:09Rich Roll?

  That's a classic. John Voight, Coming Home from Vietnam. You should see that movie.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Okay, I will. I will.

• 1:41:16Rich Roll?

  But I interrupted you, sorry.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  No. No, no, no. I'm making a mental note, because I should see a movie about a Vietnam veteran coming home. I've spoken with so many Vietnam veterans. They'll probably give me some insight, at least I could do after all they've given me, so.

• 1:41:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, speaking of which-

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, Coming Home is the heart, I think. For me, it was the weirdest part. Like, you'll never be the same again. The child is lost, or that innocent, or I don't know. There's so much that could be attributed to it. But you know you'll probably never be the same again, or maybe relate a lot less with a lot fewer people, things like that.

• 1:41:50Rich Roll?

  It was cool in researching your story, and looking on your Facebook page, and your blog, and seeing a couple of videos. My favorite is the, I assume they're Vietnam veterans, the vets who were on motorcycles who escorted you down to the Golden Gate Bridge?

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:42:09Rich Roll?

  That was super cool.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  That, that was, that day was amazing. They were the Legion Riders, the American Legion Riders. And I was very last minute, short notice, and they came out there. I went to the War Memorial Museum downtown San Francisco, and met a guy who's the chair there. And then he and a commander from one of the American Legion posts there, made a couple of calls and said, hey, we got this, you know, veteran, she's cycling across America, she's finishing. You guys want to come out and, you know, be there? And they did. They totally showed up. It was mind blowing, the last minute support like that. Just people hearing about it and be like, we're there. We're just there. And-

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  I try to tell as many veterans as possible that we do have a family out there that's bigger than any one of us can ever imagine. I never imagined that I would have that outpouring of support like that, you know, and after, after moving states and losing touch with people, not seeking out veteran organizations and not talking to other veterans for a while, I totally forgot about that, you know, and I just remember, we all met at the, the north end of the bridge and crossed into San Francisco. So I was in the bike lane on the Golden Gate and then they were in the, the regular lanes because I couldn't be there and they couldn't be here. So, and they were just cranking their, oh, it just sounded thunder, it was

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  like this thunderous wonderful thing. And so we crossed the, the bridge and while I was on there, I was just thinking to myself, like this is it, you know, this is, this is the finish line. And I just started thinking about all the support I'd gotten and it really took me over. I mean, I, I was halfway down the bridge where the, the arches, the cables kind of were at their lowest and I caught a glimpse of the Pacific and I, it was overwhelming. And so afterward, we, we went through a part of San Francisco, which is very hilly city.

• 1:44:18Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  I didn't, oh, I was, I was very fatigued. I was like, I can't mess this up the last day. That's, that's ridiculous, surrogate together. But, um,

• 1:44:27Rich Roll?

  And you made a promise that you were never going to walk your bike, right?

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. I never once walked my bike on the trip. That is something I just did for me. It wasn't to prove anything that, you know, to anyone but myself. I just, that's something I really wanted to do and I stuck to it. And actually, I did walk across the sand to the Pacific.

• 1:44:47Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  But you have to.

• 1:44:49Rich Roll?

  Were you at the Presidio or were you at Ocean, Ocean Beach?

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  Um, it was Ocean Beach.

• 1:44:53Rich Roll?

  Ocean Beach, right.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Which is a really, well, it's a, it's a long beach, but it's also a very wide beach. And, um, so I got to the stairs and they, they were all in the sand. I went down the stairs with my bike. I had all my stuff on there. It was heavy, you know, and the, the bike was just sinking and I was pushing my bicycle through the sand and it, It was very diff- honestly, it was very difficult. And I was kind of coming up on some muscle

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  You're like a hundred yards from the beach and you're like, I'm not gonna make it.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  It was like an eight hundred foot walk, in my defense. But my legs were, I mean, they were hit muscle failure after the inclines and everything. And I just, I looked down at my feet and I equated kind of my shoes in the sand and my, my boots in the sand overseas. And I remember, that's when I felt like the most capable. That's when I felt the most alive. And something just kind of happened. I kind of got this second wind, the second wind that could sink ships, I said in my thing. And everyone was just yelling, you got this, you know? And I heard all those voices and I just, it all came together in my head. Honestly, I was that close to muscle failure, like no one knows

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  but me, until, until now. But it took that and something just, and I just, I mean, I don't know if I can swear, but.

• 1:46:08Rich Roll?

  You can swear.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  I got hauled ass down. That's very mild too, but I just pushed and I got to the shore. And when I walked in the water and I kind of, I felt the, the waves rush around my ankles. It was like, I felt everything. I felt everyone. Everyone we'd lost, everyone that supported me, everyone that was there and couldn't be there. I just felt them all. I just really felt deep down in my soul that I'd, I'd made them proud, that, that I, it was a mission accomplished and.

• 1:46:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And a, a mission accomplished for yourself, but more importantly, a, a mission that represented healing for other people as well.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:46:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you can take back control of your life and your happiness. I mean, we have to. We have to take control.

• 1:47:07Rich Roll?

  If you're not gonna do it, no one's gonna do it.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  No, no one can do it. People wanna do it for you, but they don't know how you're the only one that knows exactly how to do it.

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  One of the things I liked that you said was that in the military, you're you're trained to

• 1:47:28Rich Roll?

  believe that the M16 becomes an extension of your arm, right? And that the bike then became the the extension of your arm for you, like you'd swapped one for the other. But it has that equal, you know, that that equal importance to you.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Yes, when the day I purchased it, I I got a little choked. I've been talking a lot about crying, but I'm not a big crier. I want to go on the record to say, but I did get a little choked up when I bought that bike secretly. I just I put my hand on the saddle and I was thinking about that connection, you know, with my M16. And it's like that I relied on that. It relied on me. You keep it clean. It keeps you alive. And you now I have my bicycle and it's gonna get me from one side of the country to the other. And who knows what's gonna happen in between? And it's just me and my bike, you know, and it was really a special connection.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:48:23Speaker 01

  We I knew we'd go through so much together already, like I was already thinking way ahead to all the possibilities and the elements and all that stuff. And then at the end there, having it with me that whole time, having been through everything we'd been through, all the inclines and the tornado in Kansas and

• 1:48:41Rich Roll?

  Oh, you you just glossed over that.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:48:44Rich Roll?

  Go through a tornado?

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  Um, there was a tornado warning that it hit very close. I hid in a storm. Well, I hid in a storm drain for part of it and then ended up in an element and a well, not abandoned, an unused elementary school.

• 1:48:57Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  I ran into this lady who had a key. And I'm like, do you know where I should probably go for this tornado warning? So I was just gonna sleep under that oning at the city park. And she's like, I happen to have a key to this elementary school. And she let me in there and I hid under the foundation.

• 1:49:14Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  I found an old piano.

• 1:49:15Rich Roll?

  But there was no, there was no tornado after all?

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  No, it touched down nearby.

• 1:49:20Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, yeah, it was coming, unfortunately.

• 1:49:23Rich Roll?

  Was there a moment where?

• 1:49:27Rich Roll?

  During the ride, when you realized like, oh, this is working, like, was there a tipping point where you're like, oh, this is healing, like, this is gonna be profound for me? Or was it just in the completion of it?

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  No, it was throughout. It was totally throughout.

• 1:49:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  Well, gosh, the town that we started out in was, uh, Yorktown, there was this restaurant, the Beach Coma Restaurant, and we just randomly met, we just walked in and randomly met these people, and all the staff and the guests in there, they all came out and took a picture with me, and, um, just from day one, it was like that. People wanted to know and get on board and everything. The healing, there were, I mean, there were several things that happened throughout that made a big difference. There were a couple instances where I was genuinely worried that I was gonna make it. The Ozarks, I had a very scary day where I, I was running low on water and, uh, I'd rationed it, but it was so hot, I mean, it was 108, but the feels like was in the one teens that day.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  I took a screenshot on my phone, like, this isn't real life. I was screaming at Nats, like, I thought I was losing my mind. I definitely had, um, heat exhaustion, for sure. And I poured what was left of my water over my head and smacked myself in the face a few times, literally. I was just yelling at myself as I got, you know, to this next town, I made it to the next town. Honestly, I, I really was worried about making it that day. And, um, when I got there, I, I can't wipe the smile off my face even now. Just knowing I'd been through that and made it through and that I made it to that town, it was the most exhilarating rush ever. And then I got sad, thinking, is it really gonna take this for me to feel that, you know?

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Like, can I just feel that after, like, a really good photography shoot or something?

• 1:51:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, you gotta turn it up to 11.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't burn my toast today, that's awesome. Yeah, it's like, is it really gonna take this? But, um... That really was a, that was very exhilarating, that I could still, the, the climbs, the climbs up the mountains. There was one called, that came out of Hater's Gap, it's called, and appropriately named. And it was a 3.8 miles, but only 3.8 miles long, but it was a 1,500 foot climb. So it was, well, I'm not straight up, I don't want to exaggerate, but, I mean, it was really intense climb. And it was the first big climb like that. And I did not stop or walk once.

• 1:51:56Speaker 01

  And I think that's when I first realized physically, like, I can make my mind control my body again, instead of the other way around. You know, I, I was getting so down about my physical limitations.

• 1:52:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  And, um,

• 1:52:10Rich Roll?

  That's a huge realization.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  And it's like, my God, I just destroyed myself and I feel great. And I don't hurt, like, it was a, cycling is, is beautiful like that. I mean, even if you have these ailments or limitations or whatever, uh, it's no impact. And it's lighter on you, even, even when you're doing stuff like that. I mean, you can work through that, um, sort of pain where it doesn't become overwhelming and you fail. And so much of the, the climbs were mental. So I had to dig into the mental and with me, sometimes if it gets extremely difficult, I'll just start cracking up. Like, just because of how preposterous, how ludicrous the situation is and I'm doing it. And it just cracks me up and that gives me my own second win in a way.

• 1:52:56Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  And, um, so these things would happen on these inclines. The, I described them as like a death and rebirth. You kind of kill yourself going up and then you, it's like a reincarnation on the way down or something. I said, the, the inclines are littered with discarded demons. And then the declines are tears of liberation, like, that's exactly how it felt. It was like, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna use my demons to earn my wings here.

• 1:53:24Rich Roll?

  How is your, how is your pain now?

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  It's, now that I'm not cycling every day, it's creeping in, so I'm trying to be.

• 1:53:32Rich Roll?

  So cycling keeps it at bay?

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  It does, yeah. You build some muscle, like a muscle base, you know, you don't have to use heavy weights. If, if someone's struggling with a lot of chronic pain and joint issues or muscle issues. Cycling really is a great way to stay active and everything without overexerting or further injuring yourself. And building that muscle base slowly.

• 1:53:54Rich Roll?

  What is your relationship with cycling gonna look like now?

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I miss it. I love it. I don't want to go so far as to say I get it because I have only been doing it for so long. I don't want to, like, people have been doing this their whole lives. And I say they get it, you know, there's a reason. I'm starting to fully understand the therapy. It's very therapeutic. I'm really starting to appreciate and comprehend the healing and the push that comes with it. And that you get that solitude while being active. So it's like the healthiest way to really kind of take some time for yourself and take in nature. And, you know.

• 1:54:36Rich Roll?

  You should, like, think about starting, like, a century ride for veterans or, you know, trying to introduce cycling to veterans. I mean, I presume you've already thought about these things with the venture that you're launching.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  For one of the activities, cycling would be, I love the idea of a century ride. Because that, I mean, I did one century ride on my trip and I just felt like Wonder Woman or something. You know, I was just seeing those triple digits. There are some places around Nashville I could do that, or really anywhere. I'm looking into doing some outings, you know, all over the country. I know there's one in particular, this one pass I went over in Colorado called Monarch Pass. It was the highest point on the route. And that was a doozy. And that view at the top was just breathtaking. What was left of your breath.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  The air is a little thin up there, but it just sucks the rest out of you. It's literally breathtaking, this view. And there's a gondola that takes you to the very tip of it. I would love to take a group of veterans up and over that thing. That would be wonderful for them and for me, too. Yeah. But, um, well, as far as the healing, I would say the handful of days where I didn't know if I was gonna make it. And then.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  The people, it was the people and not just veterans, just everybody. It was everybody. I don't think I really had a negative encounter with someone I met while on the journey that I can think of.

• 1:56:11Rich Roll?

  And no moment where you thought you were unsafe or?

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  There might, there was one moment. I was going to arrive at what I thought was a campground and it ended up really just being a trailhead with a picnic table. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll find a little patch of flat land. And it was a very remote side road, like no one should be back there.

• 1:56:32Rich Roll?

  Like a meth lab back there or something?

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  No, well, this SUV, like, super sketchy SUV went by and it was pretty beat up and everything. And I got a bad feeling about it. So they started to circle around to a main road to come back around. And I took off on my bike through the woods to this other road and cut through to this other road and continued on my route. So I totally lost them. But they were definitely coming back, probably to see if I was the only one there, which I was. And having traveled a lot, or part of it alone, everyone was asking, you know, do you carry a handgun or a gun? I didn't, I didn't actually carry one. I had pepper spray and two knives. And so the pepper spray would slow them down. And then if I absolutely

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  have to use my knife, I totally know how, you know. But I didn't even come close. You can avoid a lot of situations, honestly, if you with forethought, really. And especially, probably from, I definitely have the military to thank for thinking like that. And I love that it came in handy. Because I did, I did avoid a lot of things, too, just by cutting, cutting conversations short or not going in somewhere, getting out of somewhere.

• 1:57:42Rich Roll?

  That hypervigilance comes into play.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  Because all, I mean, I read, you know, body language, facial expressions, inflection, voices, all that comes into play. So it really did come in handy. And I love that I had to use it.

• 1:57:57Rich Roll?

  It's cool that, that the ride ended up getting a bunch of attention, too.

• 1:58:04Rich Roll?

  Because when I first heard about it, I thought, oh, well, this must have been something you planned for a long time. And there was a whole bunch of energy about what you were going to do before you started. But it's like, no, you just bought a bike and basically started riding it. And, and, you know, you've generated all this interest out of what you've done. Bicycling magazine wrote a great article. There was the New York Times thing and, you know, a bunch of stuff out there if you just poke around the internet and those cool videos from the news, the news crews that were there when you finished in San Francisco.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:58:42Rich Roll?

  So it must be wild for you because you were kind of just doing this for your own personal healing, right?

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  It was, it was definitely wild for me. I wasn't, I wasn't doing it for any kind of spotlight, really. I actually didn't even know really how to go about making it like that. I just, I made a, I called it a vicious cycle. I made a logo. I wanted people to know what I was doing. I made paracord bracelets to fund the journey initially. So by wanting them to know what I was doing, I basically made a post on Facebook. I'm selling, make hand making and selling these paracord bracelets. If you know anyone that would like to buy one, that would be awesome. I don't want free money, you know? I sold them for like 20 bucks each and made 300 something of them. And, and so I think through my Facebook pages,

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  how like the New York Times contacted me and I asked them how they heard about it and they, they just replied with the Facebook page. I still don't know exactly. And so some of the news, it's just kind of been a whirlwind in a way. I mean, the, the message is important and I'm, I've decided early on to welcome anything like that because this journey did help me and I know that talking about the issues along the way and, and publicly, you know, to the news and everything is making a difference. I mean, if, if this has inspired even one other veteran to

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  To go out and do something like this rather than take their own life, like that's enough for me.

• 2:00:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  I'm so sick of us dying, honestly.

• 2:00:18Rich Roll?

  So.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  And I didn't want to add to it, so I started this.

• 2:00:22Rich Roll?

  On that note, I want to wind this down with, like typically in your experience, like what are we not getting? What do we misunderstand about the veteran experience?

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  I think part of it, honestly, I think maybe would be sometimes putting us on a pedestal or something, or kind of viewing us as different when really we just want to, we don't want the attention necessarily. We just want to be making a difference kind of behind the scenes in a way. So maybe that is an aspect of it. Or I think just sometimes maybe key questions are ones that shouldn't probably be asked

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  just casually, like, did you see any body parts or did you kill anyone, stuff like that? You know, just in casual conversation.

• 2:01:14Rich Roll?

  Not a good idea to ask those questions.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  A lot of veterans are kind of avoiding that, but like the plague, you know? And now I know as far as there's a lot of resources and more and more are coming into play. That's why part of my thing is contributing to the solution here. And there's a lot of new organizations and programs that are available now that.

• 2:01:37Rich Roll?

  Where can people go to learn about that? Like, what are some of those?

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  There's a, actually, there's a really good resource that I know of, connectingvets.org. They post a lot of different options, places to go, and it's not just call the suicide hotline. You know, they call it the hotline like it's 900 or something, but they, they always are, they seem like they're really up to date on a lot of different options for veterans. So that's one I know of for sure.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  The VFW and American Legion are already in place, you know. And when I went around to them, before I started back out, I visited as many VFWs as I could. Because at that point, I was like, I want to get my message out there, tell them what I'm doing. And I was completely welcomed in right away. And it wasn't just about joining, or let's talk about war stuff. I mean, it was just casual fun. Like, lots of swearing and having a lot of laughter. And just us being how, kind of how we were when we were in and things. So, those are very helpful, I believe.

• 2:02:47Rich Roll?

  Do you think not enough veterans take advantage of those?

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely not. Especially veterans my age. I think they have this perceived notion that, you know, it's all grumpy.

• 2:02:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're just, they're gonna say. All these super old guys are gonna be.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And there are, there is some of that. I mean, quite a bit of that because of this. So, yeah, getting, I think, a younger, the younger veterans into VFW and American Legions and AMVETS.

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  Or, I mean, if you have a motorcycle, you know, there's the Combat Veterans Motorcycle Association. There's tons of motorcycle clubs, super patriotic, a lot of veteran-run ones. So, I think it just takes some, putting yourself out there. I think that's the key for veterans, is to put themselves out there. And then for civilians, just, maybe, I guess, just kind of being casual and treating them kind of like they're, they're like you, or something like that, instead of.

• 2:03:52Rich Roll?

  And for those civilians who happen to have veterans in their lives, whether family members or friends, what are some of the warning signs that that veteran perhaps is suffering? And what is the best way to approach that with?

• 2:04:11Speaker 01

  I think some of the warning signs would be the isolation, or maybe actually quite a bit of happiness out of nowhere for a while, something like that. Making it a point to spend important time with as many people as possible on a whim could maybe be a sign that something's coming up that's not too good.

• 2:04:37Rich Roll?

  Like they don't want to be alone, like almost in a manic way?

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  Oh, no, that possibly they're trying to make these quick memories and best and great times with people because they're planning maybe on doing something themselves, like signs like that.

• 2:04:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I didn't have thought that. That's interesting.

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  Um, cause that's, that was kind of part of my thought process. It was visit as much family and friends as possible. Send, um, photos of me with them so that they have them. Get all these things in place, you know, things like that. So it would be the least hurtful to them. That sort of mindset. But, um, and I've, and I've had, uh, there's been veterans that have done that, that sort of behavior and then followed through too. Um, making kind of big financial decisions or really, ah, that, that sort of thing, big purchases even maybe, um, trying desperately to have, uh, that excitement or fulfillment or something. And then it's, it probably won't work, you know, buying

• 2:05:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  A crazy amount of stuff. For, for helping, it's a lot to ask, but like just don't give up on the person. It's so much easier to say than do, I, I know. But, um, even if they're not showing much or don't seem as appreciative or thankful, a lot of times you're making the, the difference, you know? I'm not encouraging an unhealthy or dangerous relationship to continue if it shouldn't, but if, if they know that you're that, having you as that constant or knowing that constant's there could be the one thing that, that's keeping them from, from ending it or doing something, uh, wild, uh, dangerous to themselves or someone else.

• 2:06:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Having a constant of some sort. And if you're that constant for a veteran, just, oh, I hate to say hang in there, but a lot of times, yeah, if, if possible, you know? Or try to approach it in that way where it's like, uh, you know, I'm, I'm here for you and knowing someone's there is important.

• 2:06:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  But I know not a lot gets accomplished just by saying that I'm there for you, but just by, by actually physically being present and consistently showing, you know, that they, they can come to you when they're ready or confide in you and the less pressure, the better I suppose.

• 2:06:54Rich Roll?

  You're available.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Right?

• 2:06:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:58Rich Roll?

  That's really helpful. I think that's all like super important information. And we gotta, we gotta wrap this up, but I just wanted to end it with saying that there are a lot of people out there who are suffering. A lot of them are suffering in silence. So if you are listening to this and you are one of those people, or there is somebody in your life that you know is suffering, that there is help available, please reach out for help. Don't try to solve this problem on your own. Raise your hand, make your voice heard. Seek out the resources in your community and the people that you trust.

• 2:07:40Rich Roll?

  Confide in them. Tell them what's going on. Be honest. Find those resources that Sarah mentioned. I'm sure if you Google, you know, this stuff, there's going to be plenty of things available at your fingertips. And to not do it alone, right? The fact that 22 veterans take their lives every day is devastating. And for all of those people out there that are listening that suffer from PTSD who are not veterans, I'm speaking about you as well. And thank you for sharing your story here today. It's super inspirational. Amazing that you were able to climb out of that and now be of service to other people.

• 2:08:24Rich Roll?

  I feel like you should organize a bike ride that rides up, up to the US Capitol and that a group of you can, can have your voices be heard in Washington DC so that at least at the highest level, from the top down, we're addressing and redressing this problem.

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, thank you so much for saying that and having me. And I think once people are allowing that support to come in, it's, it's going to be overwhelming what's in place already in your life that you might have become blind to having fallen into a rut or a dark place. You know, when you're at the bottom, it's hard to see what's really going on. So that's really important because you may have convinced yourself that everyone will be okay, but they won't. They never will be the same. So.

• 2:09:17Rich Roll?

  And sometimes it is those tiny gestures that can make a huge difference. Right? Cool. Well, what's next for you?

• 2:09:26Speaker 01

  I am going to continue to focus on building my nonprofit Waypoint Vets, waypointvets.org. And I'm going to be, I mean, I'm applying for my 501. And that's the first big step.

• 2:09:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  Aside from that.

• 2:09:41Rich Roll?

  That's like a whole thing, getting that.

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:09:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  And I want to do it right the first time, you know, I, I need to build an inventory, gear, camping, fishing, hiking, canoeing, kayaking, cycling, caving. I'm excited.

• 2:09:57Rich Roll?

  Caving.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  Yes, like in caves, not like when you cave and.

• 2:10:00Rich Roll?

  No, I know what you're saying. Yeah, that's cool. Like all different kinds of cool adventures.

• 2:10:04Speaker 01

  Yes. Yep. Just adventure, either preferably overnight adventures where you bond over camp at, at the end of the day. After an emotionally and physically taxing day, there's, nothing beats just kicking back and being among like-minded, I mean, other veterans. So much healing happens from detaching a nature with other vets. Just, I, you know, realized a firsthand, so that's definitely what I want and need to do. It's going to keep me here for sure.

• 2:10:34Rich Roll?

  Cool. That's awesome. Well, thank you for sharing your story.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:10:39Rich Roll?

  People are listening to this and they want to, they're falling in love with you and they want to connect with you. How do they, is there, where, where should they go? Your Facebook page? Where's the best place?

• 2:10:47Speaker 01

  Yes, that, I would say, go ahead and go to aviciouscycle.org or waypointvets.org. I have a email and I have a Facebook page for both also. Facebook.com slash aviciouscycle and slash waypointvets. And I check my messages all the time. I message with veterans all the time. And it's, it's actually, it's very comfortable too. We just send back and forth whenever and you could say or not say whatever. It's, it's nice, you know, it works, it works. It's helped me, it's helped others. So, message anytime, I will, I will answer, so.

• 2:11:24Rich Roll?

  Awesome. Thank you. Uh, thank you for your service.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 2:11:28Rich Roll?

  And thank you for your service now.

• 2:11:30Speaker 01

  It was an honor.

• 2:11:31Rich Roll?

  Cool. How do you feel? You feel okay?

• 2:11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:33Rich Roll?

  You good?

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:11:34Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Awesome. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  If you'll have me, I would be honored.

• 2:11:39Rich Roll?

  Thanks, Sarah.

• 2:11:40Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 2:11:40Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:11:43Rich Roll?

  Intense, right? I mean, for real. But thank you for taking that walk with me. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I enjoyed her. I think Sarah's doing some amazing work for our veterans and that's inspiring. And I feel very strongly about leveraging this platform to have real conversations about mental health, which I'm becoming increasingly convinced is one of, if not the most important, the most misunderstood, poorly diagnosed, and critical predictors and factors when it comes to human suffering and human well-being. In any event, you can support Sarah's mission by visiting waypointvets.org, as well as

• 2:12:25Rich Roll?

  her personal site, aviciouscycle.org. There are also Facebook pages for both, and of course, I'll put all her links up in the show notes, which are copious and comprehensive, and which you should always check out on the episode page on my website, ritual.com. You can let Sarah know what you thought about today's conversation by hitting her up on Instagram, @aviciouscycle, and on Twitter, @AVCSarah, Sarah with an H. If you would like to support our work here on the podcast, there are a couple of ways to do just that. Tell your friends about the show, or about your favorite episode. Take a screen grab,

• 2:13:05Rich Roll?

  share it on social media. Subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, on Google Podcasts. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and you can support us on Patreon at ritual.com/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo, behind the scenes production, audio engineering, show notes, interstitial music. He helps me write these scripts, all different kinds of stuff. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for video and editing the podcast, which you can watch on YouTube. Jessica Miranda for graphics. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music, as always, by NLM. Thank you for the love, you guys, and the support. I will see you back here

• 2:13:47Rich Roll?

  in a couple of days with another great episode. Next up, we have Quest Nutrition co-founder and host of Impact Theory, Tom "Bill" Yu. I did Tom's show a while back. I had a great time. I'm super impressed with him as a person and what he has done with his platform, and I'm excited to flip the script and share his story with you guys in a couple of days. It's a good one. Until then, much love to all of you. Please, if there's someone that you know out there who is suffering from depression or PTSD, extend a hand, offer some help, some comfort. Life is short, man, and we need all the help that we can get. Until then, peace. Namaste.