#1529 Bo Hines | America Is Going ALL-IN On Bitcoin

Bo Hines is the Executive Director of the Presidential Council of Advisers on Digital Assets. This conversation was recorded at the White House. In this conversation we talk about the US bitcoin strategic reserve, stablecoins, regulation, how decisions are being made, gold, tariffs, law enforcement side, motivational aspect inside Trump admin, biggest surprises so far, and what Bo is looking forward to. ====================Simple Mining makes Bitcoin mining simple and accessible for everyone. We offer a premium white glove hosting service, helping you maximize the profitability of Bitcoin mining. For more information on Simple Mining or to get started mining Bitcoin, visit https://www.simplemining.io/====================BitcoinIRA: Buy, sell, and swap 75+ cryptocurrencies in your retirement account. Take 3 minutes to open your account & get connected to a team of IRA specialists that will guide you through every step of the process. Go to https://bitcoinira.com/pomp/ to earn up to $500 in rewards.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

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• 3:12Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Hello, everyone. I'm here with Bo Hines. He's the Executive Director of the Crypto Council. Bo, I thought a great place to start this conversation is the Bitcoin Strategic Reserve obviously captured not only the attention of every American, but I think the world. And seeing the United States say, "We're not going to sell the Bitcoin that we hold", was a really big deal. Talk a little bit as to what were the conversations leading up to that? And then what is the plan moving forward?

• 4:06Speaker 05

  Well, I think more generally, it speaks to President Trump's leadership in this space. You know, he made it very clear on day three with an executive order that he was going to be the crypto president. And, you know, that executive order basically outlined several different things. It created the interagency working group, which I'm the executive director of. And then, obviously, we have our brilliant AI and cryptos are David Sacks, whom many folks are familiar with in the financial world, obviously, with his VC success and everything else he's done in the business community. But, you know, this executive order created this working group. It also established some timelines that we had to hit. The first timeline was the 30-day landmark, which required these agencies to basically do an internal audit or review of everything they were touching inside the digital asset

• 4:48Speaker 05

  space, really looking over those rules and regulations that, you know, oftentimes had been misguided, specifically under the Biden regime. So, you know, we looked at those rules and regs, then we hit the 60-day landmark, which compelled the same interagency actors to provide a list of recommendations, things that they thought that they could do independently in order to deliver on the president's promise to make the United States the crypto capital of the world. And so now we have this 180-day landmark that's on the horizon, in which we'll go through these recommendations, we'll comb through all the reports, and then we'll produce, you know, a comprehensive piece of work that'll basically say this is what needs to happen inside of a regulatory framework for the United States to be the crypto capital of the world and promote innovation, allow digital asset firms to thrive here in the United States. And, you know, pivoting to your question about the SPR, you know, the president has

• 5:33Speaker 05

  made it very clear that we're going to be the Bitcoin superpower of the globe. He's said that repeatedly. Sounds great. It does. It's amazing. And, you know, David and I worked diligently with many others inside of the White House to craft what we thought was the best solution for the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. And, look, you know, we wanted to recognize Bitcoin for being unique, because it is. You know, it's a commodity, not a security. It has intrinsic stored value. It has the immaculate conception, as David likes to say. And, you know, the way that we set this up, we recognized it for what it is, which is being unique. And then we also had the Digital Assets National Stockpile, because really, we wanted to encourage the innovation that's happening across other ecosystems in the space as well. But we wanted to harness Bitcoin for the American people. We view it

• 6:15Speaker 05

  As being in our long-term interest to hold on to this asset. You know, we obviously have made it very clear that we want to acquire as much as we can get. I've said that repeatedly throughout my time on the speaking circuit over the course of the last few months. And, look, you know, at the end of the day, it stipulates that we have to acquire Bitcoin in budget-neutral ways that don't cost a taxpayer a dime. With that being said, I think that we have, as the president likes to say, many high-IQ people working on these solutions, and we're going to have countless ideas on how we can accomplish this. And, look, you know, we have Secretary Letnick at Commerce, we have Secretary Besen at the Treasury, many other great actors inside the Interagency Working Group, and we'll come together and flesh out some of these ideas and really get to the best solution. But we're very confident that we can do so, and we'll start doing that in short order.

• 7:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, these ideas of acquiring more Bitcoin, I know that none of them have been decided on, but there are many that I think are somewhat obvious of, hey, you could revalue gold, sell it, you know, move things over to Bitcoin. But I think that people drastically are underestimating maybe net new ideas. And so as you guys have been brainstorming, are there themes to things that you guys are thinking about? And, you know, there's one thing to take American taxpayer dollars that are already somewhere within the US government or on our balance sheet and kind of rearrange, right? Financial advisors all the time, they'll go and they'll rebalance their portfolio. That's kind of one whole theme. But then I've also seen Letnick and others talk about this idea of, well, maybe there's external revenue that we can drive and be able to use that. And so like, how are you guys maybe from a framework standpoint, thinking about, okay, what are the ways that we could go buy more Bitcoin?

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Well, I think that Senator Lummis has really an interesting idea with the Bitcoin Act of 2025, which I know has taken the community by storm. But here, what you would do is you'd revalue the gold certificates that we currently have at Treasury, most of which are valued, I think, around like $43 an ounce, which is, you know-

• 8:00Anthony Pompliano?

  A lot lower than what it's really worth.

• 8:01Speaker 05

  Correct, yes. And now we're sitting at, what, $3,100 an ounce, being the price of gold. And if you took that value, what you could do is use that extra funding in order to buy more Bitcoin that could be used for the reserve. But that's just one idea. And, you know, that's currently circulating its way through Capitol Hill, and we'll see how many cosponsors she can get and how she can pull her colleagues on board. But we're looking at many creative ways, whether it be from, you know- Tariffs, whether it be from something else, I mean, there's, there's literally countless ways in which you can do this. And, you know, I'll defer to, you know, some of our, our members inside of the interagency working group to see what ideas they come up with inside of their own shops. But we'll, we'll look at everything. Everything's on the table. And like we've said, we want as much as we can get.

• 8:42Speaker 05

  So we're going to make sure that no stone is, is unturned as we start fleshing out some of these, these processes.

• 8:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you have a personal goal for the number of Bitcoin that the United States could have? I've heard one million thrown out there as a nice big round number.

• 8:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I've heard a lot of different senators and other folks in the Hill talk about specific numbers, but, you know, I'd like it to be infinite. I want as much as we can possibly accumulate. And the reality is, I've told many people this, and especially journalists, is they say, well, is there an exact number? Well, no, not really, because, you know, that's like saying, how much gold do you want as a country? Anything else with intrinsic store value, you want as much as you can possibly accumulate, and that's no different with Bitcoin.

• 9:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, President Trump, he spoke at Bitcoin Nashville. He said he wanted to be the Bitcoin president. He wanted to create the Bitcoin superpower. He wanted to be the crypto capital. I mean, there's these really, really big, bold statements that I think people were surprised that him of all people, but also just the President of the United States would say. You've spent time with him, the administration, people in the cabinet. What do you think his views on Bitcoin are, right? Like, he obviously has hired a lot of people around him who have expertise and interest, and you guys have been working really hard on this and made a lot of progress already. But him personally, like, has he said anything to you about Bitcoin, or there's specific things that you think are worth sharing?

• 9:53Speaker 05

  Well, first and foremost, he delivered on his promise that he made at the Bitcoin conference in Nashville on the campaign trail, which he was going to create the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. We've obviously done that now. And as we look at different ways to accumulate, I'm sure that he'll have, you know, input as well. But the president, you know, I think he's made it very clear that, that he loves Bitcoin. Moreover, he's made it very clear that he loves digital assets and he loves the innovation in the space. And so for us, you know, our goal is to deliver on his wishes, which is to make the United States the crypto capital of the planet. And there's a lot of work that needs to be done in order to accomplish that. You know, this is an industry that's been broadly beaten down and kicked down, really over the course of the last decade and a half. More specifically, under the Biden regime, they were victims of lawfare, really targeted unlike any other industry that's ever existed on planet Earth.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  So for us, you know, the president made it very clear at the first ever White House crypto summit to many of the industry players that were there that he wanted to basically eradicate anything that undergirded the operation choke point 2.0, which for your viewers was basically an attempt to prevent digital asset firms from interacting with institutional banks or players in the trad buy space. So, you know, we're well on our way of doing that. And I'd be remiss not to mention some of the actors that have been instrumental in this in the first, you know, two and a half months of the administration. We have Hester Pierce over at the SEC, who's been absolutely phenomenal, just clearing the decks over there. We have Brian in coming at the CFTC, who loves the digital asset space, is going to be a fantastic actor. You know, look with Secretary Best in Treasury, Secretary what, Bank of Commerce. I mean, this is the dream team for digital assets.

• 11:18Speaker 05

  And I think that, you know, as we get through all of these hurdles and we establish a clear regulatory environment and a framework that allows people to operate, knowing what the rules are and who the actual regulators overseeing certain verticals in the industry are, you're going to see innovation unleashed in a way that we've, we've never experienced before as it relates to the space. And I think it can actually truly revolutionize the global financial marketplace.

• 11:41Anthony Pompliano?

  I used to always say that a Bitcoiner will be president one day, but it'll just be somebody who becomes the president and they happen to own Bitcoin. No different than a president who owns equities and they don't go and run on that platform. President Trump obviously did run on that as part of his platform. But what you're really highlighting is that the White House administration has been taken by storm by a bunch of Bitcoiners. And maybe they own Bitcoin and other digital assets, but these people fundamentally believe in this. And so I think a lot of the American people want to understand, what does this asset mean for me? Right? It's great that there's businesses in the industry. It's great that there's people who already hold it. But what's your message to the American people in terms of how they can actually interact with Bitcoin or digital assets? And what that could do for them in their own personal lives on a day to day basis?

• 12:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I'll make it very simple. We've publicly said that we believe that Bitcoin is digital gold. And with the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve, we wanted to build a digital Fort Knox around that. And so I think for your viewers, and again, I'm not a financial advisor. And obviously, as we all know, the crypto market can be extremely volatile. So I would recommend that you consult an expert before investing in it. ...category in the space, but with that being said, you know, I would be viewing Bitcoin as gold. And how can you protect your own assets? How can you protect your value in the midst of other volatile markets? I think that's something that you should certainly be looking at investing into. The United States obviously has. We said that we don't want to sell any Bitcoin. We want to accumulate as much as we can get. You know, I would follow our lead there.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  I think that we have the right mindset and we've obviously prioritized this asset class. And you know, Bitcoin is the grandfather, right? And then you have a lot of different ecosystems that have developed in the space beyond that. And you know, we're proud of those builders and what they're attempting to accomplish too. Just with the technology that's being produced. And that technology can be integrated into our institutional systems in a way that can make, you know, the way that Americans interact with their financial lives very different than what we've ever seen before. It's almost like every other industry has had, you know, periods of growth, except the financial system, just in terms of the technology that's there. I mean, you remember as a kid, we'd deal with like dial up the internet. I mean, the ways that we've, you know, the ways that we communicate as human beings has changed drastically

• 13:51Speaker 05

  over the course of the last two decades. And now, you know, we look at our banking system and there's so much friction there. I mean, look at our current payment rails, look at our systems that allow us to move money to one another. There's fees, there's lack of transparency. There's a time process that's obviously too long with the technology that currently exists. And blockchain technology and some of these technologies that are emerging out of the digital asset space will help revolutionize that system. It'll make things more transparent for Americans, more efficient, more effective. And that's something that we care deeply about and want to usher in.

• 14:24Anthony Pompliano?

  When the strategic Bitcoin reserve got announced, there was also a digital asset stockpile. And I think the people were trying to figure out what is the difference between these two things? You said earlier that Bitcoin is a unique asset. How are you guys looking at the rest of the industry and how the government is going to interact there?

• 14:38Speaker 05

  Well, I think that the rest of the industry will be taken care of. One, with the interagency actors in the sense of shaping this regulatory framework. But two, with really two pieces of monumental legislation that the president's asked to be on his desk before August, which is stablecoin legislation and we have market structure legislation. And what these two bills will do is provide the clarity that's necessary for folks to continue to develop and innovate here in the United States. Unfortunately, due to the lawfare and just reckless nature of our regulators over the course of the last few years, a lot of this innovation has gone offshore. And we want to make sure that we can repatriate that innovation back to the United States. And we want to make sure that these players can absolutely harness the US capital markets in a way that hasn't been done before as it pertains to digital assets.

• 15:22Speaker 05

  So there's a lot of work to be done there, but we wanted to recognize those players too for everything that they've done in the face of headwinds. And now that we have the tailwinds at our back, I think it's high time that they're recognized as well. And so for us, I think that we have a very unique opportunity, especially given the actors that I've mentioned before and the way that things are set up on Capitol Hill, to make monumental changes that relates to this space and really usher in the golden age for digital assets, as the president said repeatedly.

• 15:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I've talked to a lot of the different teams outside of Bitcoin, but in the crypto industry, and it seems like there's really two different kind of thought processes. There's one, which is this is a global phenomenon and all of the assets are similar, they use similar technologies, they're on public blockchains. But there's another thought process, which is there's a difference between the ones that are built in America and the ones that are built outside of America. How are you guys thinking through, you know, there's an America first agenda for the administration more generally, but also I think that there's this belief that technology and innovation is a key component to American kind of success on the global stage. And so it's a pretty complex situation, but how are you guys thinking through that?

• 16:25Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I think that the players that have developed frameworks outside of the United States will ultimately want to be participants here. And so I think that the regulatory clarity will allow them to integrate in the United States and start building more systems here. Moreover, I think that, you know, we want to make sure that we're leading the globe just in terms of this technological innovations that relates to digital assets. And so we want to welcome those folks back to the US. I mean, you know, I think a lot of The great technology that's been developed here has been from US participants that have gone offshore due to the lack of regulatory clarity that existed for so long. And that's going to change in short order. So my message to those folks is, one, welcome home. You know, we're excited to have you back. And two, we look forward to the United States leading the charge in terms of the technological revolution as it relates to the digital finance space more generally.

• 17:09Speaker 05

  So, you know, look, we'll, we'll make sure that we're operating delicately in a sense of recognizing what's happening offshore and onshore. But we have blinders on right now just to create the best regulatory environment that could possibly exist for innovators in this space. And that's one thing that the president's made very clear. And you've obviously seen our, our inter-agency actors move very quickly and expeditiously to get that done.

• 17:29Anthony Pompliano?

  The, the speed is breathtaking, right? I mean, I think that people knew there's a little bit more planning this time versus maybe the first term. But I think that people did not expect to see the results so quickly. And I think it's kudos to you, the rest of the team and the president himself. But let's talk about stable coins. That seems to be one of the big focuses right now for politicians across both sides of the aisle. I think there's some agreement and there's also a lot of disagreement as to what that framework's going to look like. The US dollar is a very important part of the US economy and kind of our success on that global stage. But there's new technology and a lot of the success of the US dollar on these blockchain rails are coming from the private sector rather than the public sector. And so how are you guys maybe approaching stable coins, that legislation and getting some regulatory clarity there

• 18:12Anthony Pompliano?

  so that the private sector actually knows what they can and cannot do?

• 18:15Speaker 05

  Well, you know, at the beginning of that question, you mentioned the speed in which we're operating. And I'd say that's a testament to the president's leadership, along with our AI and crypto is our David Sachs. I mean, look, I think we're testing the hypothesis for the first time about what happens when you take private sector actors, their leaders in their particular fields and inject them into government, right? What happens is you start creating much more efficient systems. And that's truly a testament to President Trump and the folks that he's brought into this administration. I think that that should be, you know, something that stands going forward as we start thinking about how do we operate this country in a way that benefits the American people more generally. And as in regard to stable coin legislation, you know, we understand how important this is just for US dollar global dominance. We understand how important it is for, you know,

• 18:58Speaker 05

  The ways in which our system works and achieving new payment rails that are more efficient and can allow for the expertise transfer of asset classes. And this gets us into a broader conversation about what can be done more generally down the road is that you start talking about tokenization of public securities and things of that matter. So we are very keen on helping our colleagues on the Hill usher this through. And, you know, I think that we have phenomenal actors up there. You look at Chairman Hill on the House Financial Services Committee. You look at Chairman Tim Scott at Senate Banking. I mean, they both passed stablecoin legislation out of their respective committees with bipartisan votes. This is a truly meaningful and monumental step for them. And I think that what honestly was missed in a lot of folks in industry was at the beginning

• 19:41Speaker 05

  of this administration, David went up to Capitol Hill and did a joint press conference with both chairmen where they were talking about creating the bicameral working group on digital assets. And, you know, that was just such a recognition of this industry and what they've been able to build in the midst of a lot of turmoil over the course of the last decade. This was both chambers coming together, saying, we're going to pass meaningful legislation as it relates to the space and provide the clarity that the actors need to innovate and thrive here in the United States. And now they're well on their way of doing that. And, you know, Stables has been the first to move, but we'll have market structure shortly thereafter in terms of sequencing. You know, we'll see what the chairman decide to do there. But, you know, we've made it very clear from the White House that we would like to see both pieces of legislation on the President's desk by August.

• 20:22Speaker 05

  And as we work towards 180 day report, you know, that hopefully runs parallel to that timeline where we can have a completely new and innovative system and regulatory framework that's built by August and we can start the implementation phase. You know, one thing that I've said is, you know, we've had to start with the demolition phase, basically rescinding all of these nasty regulations that the Biden administration implemented, which stifled growth. And then now we have the constructive phase, which is happening on Capitol Hill and what we're doing with rule guidance and all sorts of things from interagency actors. And then we'll have the implementation stage, which, you know, for us, we want to integrate these technologies into the institutional banking system. And we want the traditional financial players to welcome in this innovation. I think that they will in short order.

• 21:04Anthony Pompliano?

  How do you think this affects the US dollar, global dominance of that dollar, adoption of that dollar? On one hand, I think people, including myself, when I first got into Bitcoin, I was like, oh, man, this is going to be competitive with the dollar. If Bitcoin is successful, that might not be good for the US. I think I've changed my mind on that now, and it looks like actually this technology is helping to further extend the dollar. Have you guys thought through what are the pros and cons of the technology in the industry actually being successful?

• 21:28Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, I mean, the way in which it changes payment rails and how quickly you can move money, people are naturally going to want to have a safe harbor in the US dollar, and that's good for the United States. And so the more dollars are spreading globally throughout different economies and other regions is fantastic for us. And I think that stablecoin legislation allows us to do that. It also structures things in a way that provides the necessary oversight to ensure that consumers are protected. And I think that's one thing that's often overlooked. But here, once you have that regulatory clarity, that will be established, and it'll welcome other players internationally to investing in US treasuries, which is phenomenal for us and great for our economy and great for the American people.

• 22:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, there are foreign stablecoin issuers like Tether, there's domestic ones like Circle. I think that a lot of these companies, they have different approaches, right? On one hand, if I had to generalize, it's not perfect, but if I generalize, I think Tether is much more focused on the emerging markets and really kind of driving that dollar adoption globally. And I always joke with their team, I say, you got a pretty good product that you're selling. A lot of people want dollars, right? It's got product market fit, and now you just got to go figure out all the infrastructure. And it's very difficult because you've got to go, and in many cases, they're building infrastructure on the ground in very hard, kind of remote regions, and they're doing a lot of great work there. Circle, on the other hand, I think has done a really good job of trying to build more traditional financial connectivity and say, hey, let's go on the other side here in the United States and go find that. And it's not a perfect, kind of black and white comparison,

• 22:51Anthony Pompliano?

  but I do feel like different companies that are using these stablecoins have different approaches. And so can you talk through a little bit as to, you mentioned earlier, the traditional financial institutions getting into the game and participating. But it also feels like in a weird way, crypto in general has been a bottoms-up adoption story, right? Usually, the technology goes from the military and the country, and it's the people that are last. Here, the US now is in the game. But the US was kind of last, right? It was the individuals first and the financial institutions, then the countries. And so how do you see, you know, stablecoins in particular? Like, who are they helping? Or is it just, no, actually, anyone who wants dollars? Stablecoins are effectively valuable to them.

• 23:27Speaker 05

  Well, I think they help everybody because they change the way in which our financial payment rails work. They allow people to move in and out of asset classes in a much more expeditious way. And so, you know, this can be huge for institutional players in the traditional finance space as their consumers are able to move money more effectively and efficiently. In terms of how it affects the crypto industry, well, the same principle applies. If you can get in and out of different asset classes at a faster pace, that helps the market move along in a much more effective way and in a much less friction environment. So, you know, for us, it's about decreasing friction. It's about increasing the expedition way in which people can interact with their finances. And I think that stablecoins really helps with that. And, sir, you know, there's players have different strategies and a sense of how they operate.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  But for us, you know, our main objective is just to create marketplace competition here in the United States. That drives innovation, that drives growth. The digital asset space is no different. And so we'll start to see these players compete under a new regulatory framework. But, you know, there's certain guidelines that exist in both the Stables Act and the Genius Act that I think are really healthy for innovation, you know, making sure that you're one-to-one backed, you know, having those audits that are there. These are things that will protect the US consumer and consumers abroad that are investing in US treasuries. But at the end of the day, you know, just, I think everyone will benefit from this. And I think it's a very positive thing because very, you know, it's not very often that that's the case.

• 24:49Anthony Pompliano?

  I was just gonna say, that's almost never the case.

• 24:51Speaker 05

  Usually, there's a loser. I think with digital assets, there's really not. And I think that's a testament to how we're seeing, you know, the bipartisan nature around this forum. And that's one really fun thing about my job in this building is I'm working on something that I think Democrats and Republicans can come together on and say, like, this is absolutely imperative for the United States to just lead the charge in terms of digital asset, financial, technological innovation. And I think that we're doing that. And I think that, you know, the first few votes that we've seen out of committee have proven that. And now we just have to continue to push it along.

• 25:18Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things I always ask people is that you sit in a very unique seat because you probably hear a lot of the support and you also hear a lot of the criticism. As well, are the critics right about anything? Do they have anything that you're like, you know what? Actually, I do agree that that's a problem right now. And here's what we're doing to mitigate it or something. But like, how do you think about the critiques that are coming? There's the media, there's plenty of people who just don't like crypto or don't like this technology. And I think also, there's a lot of people who are saying, hey, there's a, you know, a price movement to this thing. And so people are making and losing money every single day on it in a market. And they have criticisms as well. And so how do you think about, you know, maybe where there's areas of opportunity for crypto? But really, the critics are pointing out where those areas are.

• 25:56Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I'd say that most of the naysayers, I certainly don't agree with. In terms of the technological advances that can be made in the global financial system with the adoption of the technology, it's emerging out of the space. It's hard to make an argument against that. It's hard to make an argument that our current payment rails and our institutional banking system is a little bit archaic in the way that it operates. But, you know, more generally, I think that as you usher in these technological changes, you'll start to see a lot of minds change very quickly. When they start to see the real impact of how it affects them in their everyday lives as they interact with their own finances. And so, you know, for us, I'd be, I'd be hard pressed to believe you're going to have the same naysayers out there once this clear regulatory framework is established. And, you know, I think that one of the biggest problems is there's just an educational gap.

• 26:41Speaker 05

  There's, there's a lot of folks that haven't interacted with crypto before. In government, there's, there's a rule, an ethics rule that prevents, you know, actors inside of certain agencies from actually being able to tangibly interact with digital assets on a day to day basis, even on a small scale. So, you know, that creates an educational hurdle for us more generally in a sense of just helping people understand what this is, you know, how it feels, right? Your biggest advocates for digital assets are people that own them because they have experience interacting with, with different asset classes and the technology itself. And so, you know, I think that as you start to see more people interact with the industry, there will be broader adoption in very short order because the technology is there and it'll usher in the change that's needed.

• 27:23Anthony Pompliano?

  You bring up a really interesting point. I've seen proposals where, you know, hey, maybe politicians shouldn't be able to legislate over certain industries unless they've got experience or they have certain people that advise them or maybe they have to take a test. Right, do they understand some basic components of it? Using the technology, though, is a whole different game. And it'd be almost like trying to talk about, I don't know, maybe ChatGPT, but never having asked it a question or something, right? And so, do you think that there is some pathway there where, within the ethics rules, you could have, you know, a tutorial day or something? Where you just say, hey, look, just sit down and you're gonna send, you know, $5 from one wallet to another? And how trying to do that with your bank and see how much faster that is, right? Are there things like that that could happen?

• 28:01Speaker 05

  I definitely think so. And look, I mean, these are all things that we'll, we'll end up talking to our inter-agency working group about. But how do we make these rule changes? That honestly aren't even so drastic that they should, you know, cause people to be appalled. I mean, this is something more or less, how do you allow people to interact with new technologies so that they can actually understand it? And that would help us, you know, a lot on Capitol Hill as we're educating members as well. But, you know, thankfully, we have fantastic leadership there with the folks that truly get it. And, you know, I'd again be remiss not to even think, or thank Chairman Brian Stile, who's the Subcomedy Trip Digital Assets in the House. He's done a phenomenal job. You have Senator Lummis, who's, you know, a Bitcoin champion, and we absolutely love her.

• 28:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Get the laser eyes on X.

• 28:41Speaker 05

  That's right, that's right. And then Senator Hagerty is doing a great job in the Senate. So they're, they're really assisting in terms of educating the members. But, yeah, I mean, there's, there's certainly things you can do, whether it be workshops, whether it be, you know, changing some rules just to allow people to interact with technology on a small scale. I think we can definitely accomplish that.

• 28:56Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things that we've seen in the private sector is, if somebody does something innovative, usually they start getting phone calls from other people who say, what'd you do? How'd you do it? And should I do the same thing? Have you guys been fielding calls from foreign governments? Or, you know, people outside the United States that are saying, why'd you set up the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve or the Digital Asset Stockpile? And, you know, how did you do it? How did you think about certain things? We're thinking about it as well.

• 29:17Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I think that we, right now, we currently have the blinders on, right? Because we're attempting to just do what we need to do to deliver on the President's promise, which is obviously to make the United States a crypto capital of the globe and to welcome in this innovation, digital assets industry. And so, you know, we owe it to the American people to deliver to them first. And I'm sure that other countries will be chasing us as we continue to push forward and do that and welcome in this technological innovation. But, you know, I'm just extremely, extremely pleased that we have a President that truly is the crypto President that's welcoming in these changes. And I think you'll, you'll see other world leaders follow suit very quickly.

• 29:51Anthony Pompliano?

  My free idea for you, which you know, you kind of get what you pay for is you should put a national scoreboard for every country, how much Bitcoin they own in the Oval Office. And I think we'll have a lot more Bitcoin at the end of the term. If he stands and just looks at it all day long. But I do think that there is some competitive nature, but also collaboration, right? You know, we know that countries like El Salvador and others have been buying or holding Bitcoin. And it feels like the United States stepping in is kind of a breakthrough moment. But do you think that there is some sort of race to see, hey, who has the most? Are there geopolitical, you know, strategic reasons why we want to have the most or anything that you guys have talked about on that front?

• 30:27Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, with with any asset of value, there's certainly going to be a race to see who can accumulate the most. And I think that we certainly understand that as we're considering the different pathways that we can acquire more in budget neutral ways. And so, you know, I'm very confident in this working group. I know that people are desperate to hear, but what's going to be the first action that you take regarding this accumulation process? But we want to make sure that we're taking the best action as well. And so that takes a little bit of time to flesh out, but I think people will be very very pleased with how quickly that we move. As David likes to say with everything we've done, whether it be with AI or crypto, we're moving at tech speed. It's like we're a startup in this building. And that's, that's truly a lot of fun because it gives us the flexibility that we need in order to accomplish things that benefit the American people. And, you know, we'll continue moving this along quite quickly.

• 31:10Anthony Pompliano?

  There's been a big rollback on the regulatory side and also I would even say on the law enforcement side where you see the DOJ come out and say, hey, we're going to abandon maybe the previous approach. If you still break the rules, you're going to get in trouble, but there's kind of a different approach to the industry. The SEC, we have a new chief that has recently been put into place there. And it feels like even across agencies where maybe there wasn't employee turnover, there's just been kind of a complete tone shift. I think that comes from the top. But talk about maybe what's happening there and do you expect that just to be a complete tailwind for the industry? Or is there some nuance here that people should be paying attention to?

• 31:43Speaker 05

  No, I would expect it to be a complete tailwind for the industry. I think that all the actors that we have at the relevant agencies are pro-digital asset innovation. And they're welcoming folks to come in and pitch ideas. They want to hear from industry about ways in which they can do better in order to streamline growth and innovation. Chairman Atkins is going to be phenomenal for digital assets as well, and then Hester over there at the SEC. Brian will be just enormously helpful at the CFTC as this regulatory clarity takes shape. But, you know, one thing that we've done, and we've taken it upon our office, is, you know, I've probably had no less than 150 meetings with industry folks over the course of the last two and a half months. And not just with Goliaths. We're talking to startups. We're talking to folks that, you know, are currently in a building process, folks that

• 32:28Speaker 05

  are testing new ideas. Because we want to hear from everybody, and we want to know what challenges they're facing in regards to their innovative steps. And so, you know, this allows us to actually, again, engage in this educational conversation because I've really taken it upon myself to listen to experts in their particular verticals in the space, be able to dissect that information, and then translate it into something that's more palatable for folks that maybe don't understand digital assets as well as the players do in the industry. But look, you know, I'm very keen on the idea that industry tends to know best. They live, breathe, and sleep this stuff every day. And so the more that we can absorb from them in terms of information, and then translate that into action from a governmental side, that's what allows us to get to the best outcome. And I truly believe that.

• 33:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Most people who touch financial markets, I think the general playbook is, hey, let me go make a lot of money. And then once I get older, then I'll think about maybe serving my country in some sort of leadership position or politics, et cetera. The people that I've interacted with the administration, it's not that there's a ton of young people, it's not that there's a ton of, you know, wise people. There's a very big, I think, mix between that. You're one of the younger people who have come into the administration. I think you're very familiar with the technology. You have colleagues who maybe have a lot more experience in terms of dealing with, you know, moments of crisis, or some sort of, you know, edge case or nuance in financial markets. And so, how do you guys work through these things where people are bringing different things to the table? You've mentioned many times these inter-agency kind of working group, and even that, right? There's different expertise, there's different kind of experiences that are showing up to

• 33:56Anthony Pompliano?

  the table. And so, on one hand, that could be very helpful. On the other hand, there's a lot of people showing up with very different ideas as kind of how the world should look moving forward. And so, maybe talk through, like, how are decisions actually getting made, and what's kind of happening behind the curtain, if you will?

• 34:09Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I think it's a fantastic thing to have actors with experience. And I think it's also a fantastic thing to have, you know, actors with new and innovative ideas. I think the president's done a phenomenal job of formulating a team that's comprised of both. And so, you know, for us, we're able to bounce ideas off of each other and, you know, I'll call them, you know, more of the gray hairs here can tell us. Wise is the word I choose. They can tell us whether or not those things will be helpful or useful based on their past experiences. But the one thing that is genuinely true across the board is all of the actors the president has brought together, at least in the financial space, agree that digital assets and moreover, the technology that's emerging from this space is absolutely crucial for the United States to adopt. And so for us, it's about finding, you know, what the right landing spot is.

• 34:54Speaker 05

  But we want to continue to usher this innovation along. And I think that, you know, being able to pick up the phone and call David, who understands the space inside and out, just from a business perspective and VC perspective, is extremely helpful. For me, you know, I started trading Bitcoin back in 2013, 2014, and, you know, some other asset classes back in the Wild West. And so I've seen things too, from a different perspective, just from a retail side. And I think that, you know, as all of this information converges and comes together and these minds meet, it allows us to make the best decisions for the United States and for the consumer more generally. How did you first hear about this? So I played my freshman year at North Carolina State. I was a football player and I played in the Bitcoin Bowl in St. Petersburg.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  And, you know, that sparked my interest in crypto. I ended up buying my first Bitcoin shortly thereafter. And, you know, I just, it's something that's had a special place in my heart for a long time, ever since then. You know, I continue to be an active participant, just from a trading perspective on the retail side of things. And I've been able to watch the industry evolve and change quite drastically over the course of the last decade. But, you know, it's extremely exciting to know that we have other folks that feel the same way as I do inside of this building about this industry, understand, you know, the value of Bitcoin, the value of these other digital assets and what they bring to the financial system. And so we just need to capitalize on that. And that's something the president certainly understands and is keen on doing.

• 36:18Anthony Pompliano?

  You're talking about the retail adoption story, which I think is a very important part of this. We now see Wall Street salivating over participating. And I joke with my friends who work at these larger organizations and I say, part of it's probably because there's a lot of potential customers here. There's a lot of potential revenue that they can go and bring into these businesses and create an entirely new business line. And that's very exciting to them. But there's been a lot of rules that haven't let them actually participate. We're starting to see some of that stuff either get clarity or get rolled back. And so how much of this is the retail story moving forward? And the assets people can go buy on an exchange and they can hold it or trade it and use it to buy things versus there's a lot of what I call the background nuance of financial plumbing, which you and I could sit here and try to talk about and people

• 37:03Anthony Pompliano?

  fall asleep about. But it's really important because ultimately that is how people are able to transact. That's how these large financial institutions are able to operate on a day-to-day basis. What are you seeing on that back end side that maybe is boring to most people, but is really, really important to financial markets?

• 37:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that there are different ecosystems that touch the consumer in different ways, some of which are subliminal and most consumers wouldn't recognize. But this goes back to the conversation we were having about an archaic banking system. The ways in which people move money, they've just accepted for a long time, whether it be fees, whether it be the friction that's involved. The bank might stop a payment and say, we're going to review this, whatever it is. We want to have the necessary security and that's important, but we also want to make sure that Americans can move their money efficiently. And I think part of this, in a sense, is integrating these technologies into the institutional banking systems in a way that allow for streamlined transactions,

• 38:00Speaker 05

  the privacy that might be necessary for some Americans and the security element as well. And those things are not mutually exclusive of one another. I think they can all be combined. But the only space that's combined these things really is the digital asset space. And this comes out of blockchain technology. And there's all sorts of development happening around this technology. There's people that are building on different platforms and different ecosystems, continually updating and making these changes that undergird all three things that I've discussed. And laid out and so you know for us I think that the institutional players recognize just how powerful these systems are now they're going to certainly want to find ways to plug these into their ecosystems and the ways that benefit their business but I think that that's that's certainly going to happen and it's going to happen very quickly and so I think

• 38:45Speaker 05

  that the way that Americans interact with their everyday financial lives now will look completely different over the course of the next decade you know my son who will never experience dial up like we did at a point in our lives

• 38:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Your mom called, they're telling, "Hey, get off, I need the phone."

• 39:00Speaker 05

  I think that he'll be he'll never experience a time in which it might take him three or four days to move money to somebody you know and there are instances where that still happens especially with larger transactions he'll never experience the idea of what it's like to send money not know where it is and just hope that it promulgates to the place that you're sending it right I mean look the transparency that the technology in the space provides is absolutely instrumental and I think the faster that we can adopt it the better off we'll be.

• 39:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about tokenization which I think is a whole nother part we now see some of these large financial institutions actually doing things because I think people talked for like a decade right it's coming it's coming it's coming now we actually see the Black Rocks and many others launching products and we'll see if they're successful or not or if they're popular but that does feel like a huge part of where this technology can be applied that at least the large financial institutions are excited about and so have you guys gotten to thinking through any of that stuff yet?

• 39:52Speaker 05

  Yeah absolutely and these are all things that we're going to address in the 180 day report I mean this is going to be very comprehensive you can almost

• 39:59Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like a big book report.

• 39:59Speaker 05

  You can almost consider it a book not even a book report I think this will end up being a book but I think that it'll provide clarity on many aspects of this space whether it be from tokenization to staking all sorts of things so you know I know that people are very keen to get answers immediately but for us we want to make sure that the answers that we're providing are correct and can be implemented accordingly and so you know we're working through that but look if we can get all of this accomplished by August I think that would be a tremendous success and I think it would be a derelict of duty from our office if we don't we have a mandate from the president to deliver very quickly and we plan on doing that.

• 40:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Tariffs are the talk of every town, I think, right now. It seems like it changes every five minutes in terms of these high-stakes geopolitical negotiations. And America is definitely being tough, I think, with a lot of these countries. But gold was not tariffed, and neither was Bitcoin. And I think that a lot of the gold movement leading up to the tariffs were people saying, hey, these may be part of these tariffs, and so we should probably get the gold from London or other places around the world, bring it back to the United States, bring it to New York and elsewhere. How do you think about these assets playing in this global financial system, which we all participate in? And when you have tariffs or other kind of changes in global trade, these assets are kind of operating outside the system a little bit.

• 41:14Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 41:15Anthony Pompliano?

  But again, the United States still is participating. And so it's this very weird kind of dichotomy that we're living through. And so how do you guys look at these assets, given that it actually has been designated as unique and outside of the tariffed global economy?

• 41:27Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, gold has acted as a safe harbor for folks for quite a long time.

• 41:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Thousands of years.

• 41:33Speaker 05

  Thousands of years. And I think that for the next few thousand years, I think Bitcoin will behave very similarly to gold. And so, yes, they do kind of exist outside of this current financial framework that's under strict scrutiny, to say the least, at the moment. And one thing I'll say about the president, we've just come through a tremendous week in a sense of him leveling the playing field for the United States, as we've been taken advantage of and abused for quite some time over the course of the last several decades. And he's the only president that's had the courage to stand up and say, you know what? I'm going to do what's in the best interest of the American people. I'm going to deliver from Main Street, not just Wall Street. But at the end of the day, both Main Street and Wall Street are going to benefit from this, because it makes our country stronger.

• 42:18Speaker 05

  And I'm just extremely proud to work for a man that has the courage to stand up and do that.

• 42:23Anthony Pompliano?

  I've seen members of the Trump family talk about their family interests originally in crypto and kind of where they actually got introduced to it and started to learn about it was there was a lot of de-banking that was going on and it feels like that experience is not unique to them. There's a lot of people, especially in the crypto industry, that went through this, whether it was their company or personally. Hopefully that's behind us and I think a lot of the changes in regulation are going to allow for kind of different treatment from these organizations. But talk a little bit as to how do you go to these people who've been burnt by government or burnt by these large organizations and say, this time is different, right? How do you re-establish that trust? And you guys are doing a great job, I think, of communicating the message, but I got to imagine there's still a lot of people who, you know, it's like, I'm here from the government and I'm gonna help, you know, I'm gonna improve things. Talk just about

• 43:08Anthony Pompliano?

  the relationship building and the trust that you need to kind of establish in order to have an impact in an industry like this.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I think that the only reason that there's trepidation and really the only reason that we have to be having these conversations is because government took bad action first, right? And so now it has to be completely unwinding in some capacity. So that's what we're working on. And then we can actually start having constructive conversations about how do we build things here? And those are basically running in parallel right now with legislative priorities and obviously what we're doing with Interagency. But, you know, there's certainly still trepidation from folks in industry that, you know, experienced walking into the SEC pitching in ideas, they sit there and write the Wells notice at the same time they're there. You know, by the time you get out of the elevator, you're being targeted. So, you know,

• 43:53Anthony Pompliano?

  You're ticket out of the building.

• 43:54Speaker 05

  Correct. Yeah. And, you know, what I'd say is, this is a complete sea change in the way that this administration views the digital asset space. We want to hear from folks that have new and innovative ideas. And I'm speaking for all of Interagency at this point because we're having these conversations with the working group. They want you to come in, they want you to tell them what you want to do here and see if basically they can help you, whether it be through offering guidance, whether it be through offering no action letters, whatever it is. And, you know, I don't speak on behalf of these agencies, but what I can tell you is that, you know, they're begging us to encourage people from industry to come in and talk about what they want to do here in the United States so that they can help usher along and support those efforts. You know, and I think that's extremely refreshing for many people. And I think very slowly, we're getting to the point where we're building back that trust with industry. And, you know,

• 44:39Speaker 05

  ultimately, this undergirds the process to make the United States the crypto capital of the world and we're gonna get there, I promise you.

• 44:45Anthony Pompliano?

  There's a lot of integration of technologies that seem to be on the horizon. So we have artificial intelligence, there's AI agents, there's robotics, there's humanoids, there's all these different kind of exciting technologies. And then there's crypto. And I think historically, these things were very fragmented, they were very different. I always think about, if you put on your LinkedIn or on your X bio, you'd be like, I'm a crypto investor, or I'm an AI investor, or I'm an AI entrepreneur, or a crypto entrepreneur. Now, though, it feels like they're merging. And you sit in a very unique seat because you, David Sacks, have this purview over really innovative technologies. And I know you're a little bit more focused on the crypto side, but it does feel like people who are building these AI agents are starting to say, well, maybe the actual legacy banking system doesn't work.

• 45:28Anthony Pompliano?

  There is no automated payments, and so I need to use stable coins, or I need to use something like Bitcoin. And so how do you try to predict maybe where the world's going a little bit? Or think about the rules that you're creating today? The world could look very, very different five years from now and be able to adapt those rules for that future?

• 45:44Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I'll say this too. I think that the institutional players in the financial space are also very adaptive. And I think that they have a lot of smart people in their buildings thinking about ways in which they can integrate these new technologies. And so, just like any other industry, you're going to see spaces evolve. And I think that, honestly, our financial system has been a little bit blinded to a lot of the innovations occurring around them. And then now, this is a really good push in the right direction in order to change and make things more streamlined and really effective for their consumers. But there certainly is an integration with crypto and AI, and there's crossover with blockchain technology and all of these sorts of things. And I'm very fortunate, my mandate here is to stay focused to deliver on the president's wishes as it relates to the digital asset space.

• 46:29Speaker 05

  But I have phenomenal colleagues working on AI, especially in the Office of Science and Technology Policy here in the White House. You have Michael Kratzios, who's the director, brilliant guy. You have Siram, who's the AI senior advisor, and then obviously David there as well. So these folks certainly understand what's happening, where the integration is, and where these two things converge. And so we'll continue to flesh out those conversations as part of the implementation phase that we'll get into in short order after this demolition and reconstruction.

• 46:59Anthony Pompliano?

  When I look online, I think that there's really two different information sources. There is what I would consider kind of more traditional coverage of crypto, finance, AI. And then there's memes. And one of the things that always cracks me up is sometimes the memes. They're generalizations, but they have a really, really big hint of truth to them. And one of the memes that seems to have taken hold in the crypto industry is that Baron Trump is a huge part of so much of the policy and the interests and stuff in crypto. Regardless of whether Baron is actually involved or not, talk a little bit about some of the viewpoints of externally. People are realizing, hey, the administration's serious about this, right?

• 47:42Anthony Pompliano?

  There is a real effort, not just to create the rules, not just to kind of make sure that the industry is treated fairly, but there's a desire that this can actually help people. And I think that that maybe is the thing that, as I've talked to people in the administration, has stood out to me more so than anything else, right? It's just, everyone knows that you're guys are gonna go do your job, you've been tasked from the president, and they kind of understand what that layout is. But there's a desire to go do this because you had a lot of opportunities. You could have done a lot of other things than take this position. But there's a service component to this. And I think that there's something about the motivations of the people who sit in these seats. And so, talk a little as to, you know, there's lots of fun memes, there's lots of, you know, kind of cool things on the internet, there's a lot of cool opportunities you had, but you chose to do this.

• 48:27Anthony Pompliano?

  And so, why did you choose to do that?

• 48:29Speaker 05

  Well, first and foremost, I'll say, without making this too partisan, is I think the right memes a lot better than the left. And I think that's been proven over time, especially over the course of the last election cycle. But no, I think that there's just a keen interest in understanding about how important this industry is. And for me, you know, I couldn't have passed up the opportunity to work, one alongside who I believe is the greatest president in the history of the United States, to usher in, you know, a completely new financial system as it relates to technology and development, with David Sacks, who's a brilliant person in his own right. But the reason that we've all decided to do this is the same reason the president decided to run in the first place, which is that he cares deeply about the American people. All he cares about is communities and he wants to deliver for them.

• 49:12Speaker 05

  And I think that in Washington, it's very tempting to do your work in order to deliver for yourself. Here in this building, I think that we have very passionate folks that care about the American people. And every day that we step in this building, we recognize what a privilege it is to be here and serve on behalf of them. And I think with every decision that we make, we have to keep that in mind. You know, there's a seriousness that exists in this building. And, you know, the people put us here and the people deserve transparency, which is another thing the president's given them more fully. You know, it's funny because as we've talked about the president's positions on crypto in this interview, you know, he's been very articulate and adamant about, you know, how he feels about the space. And hence why he created Digital Assets Office in the White House. And so we have an open door policy.

• 49:57Speaker 05

  I think this is probably the most transparent administration anyone's ever seen in the history of the United States. And we want to keep it that way. You know, I'll do interviews with folks that agree and or disagree with what we're doing. You know, I welcome dissenting opinions because honestly, you know, going back to the old adage, biblical adage, iron sharpens iron. And I think that we feel the same way here as we bounce ideas, you know, off of one another and really, you know, try to find the best result for the American people. But, you know, in this space, it's exciting because we've touched on a lot of these things. But, you know, the person that's going to benefit the most just from institutional adoption of these technologies, the person who benefits the most from Bitcoin being unique and acting as a stored value similar to gold is the everyday person, right?

• 50:42Speaker 05

  And now granted, we're harnessing in Bitcoins, in the particular instance Bitcoin, we're harnessing this asset for the American people as well by creating the strategic Bitcoin reserve. But having these outlets to store their assets and having these outlets to engage in and being able to touch things that are real and move things to one another in a completely different way benefits them in a tremendous way. So.

• 51:06Anthony Pompliano?

  The stat that I always point out to people, I think it was in 2016, the median US home was like $280,000. Today, it's over 400,000. And if you go and you look at Bitcoin, it was like 664 Bitcoin, now it's six. And so one, you know, almost doubled, the other went down 90 plus percent. And it really just shows you the power of being able to store your wealth in something that is not going to be debased away. And I think that as I've talked with folks, like that is understood. And it's a simple concept, but it takes kind of a while for people to wrap their head around.

• 51:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Speaking of information, one of the things that has surprised me the most, I enjoy talking to a lot of the Wall Street or the hedge funds organizations, because they have a very different perspective. And I always say that, you know, take Bitcoin, Bitcoin is the most risky asset that they have in their portfolio. In the crypto world, Bitcoin is the safest asset that they have in their portfolio, right? But when I've talked with a number of hedge fund CIOs lately, and these are big, multi-billion dollar funds, I always ask a question, I say, when you walk into your office every morning, what do you check first? Like, what are the data points? And I now increasingly hear some version of, I walk in and I check global liquidity, and then I check the Bitcoin price. And at first, I was like, like, you guys own a lot of Bitcoin, right? You know, like, what are you doing?

• 52:20Anthony Pompliano?

  And they said, no, it is a very sensitive asset to global liquidity and interest rates and geopolitical risk and all these different things. And so it's an information tool. Are you all evaluating policies or looking at kind of what's happening on a day-to-day basis, based on price? But not as in like, hey, is it going up or down, but more as an information tool? Do you pay attention to what's happening in the market as you guys are kind of doing this work, even mandated by the president?

• 52:43Speaker 05

  You know, we try not to pay attention to price too much, because we believe in the premises that we've laid out. And, you know, I can point to the strategic Bitcoin reserve executive order in a sense of how we classified Bitcoin as being unique in its own right. But it certainly gives off information that we can absorb and use to make decisions. But in terms of affecting policy, you know, I feel like we're very well grounded in the sense of how we build our foundation of how we view these things. And, you know, I think it's very tempting. You know, I've actually heard some, some different actors up here in the industry say, oh, you know, Bitcoin's just running with the market. Well, at first, because, you know, naturally, because it's so easy to get in and out of the asset class. When margin calls are happening, people tend to go to crypto because they're able to liquidate very quickly. I think that in, in

• 53:28Speaker 05

  A longer, more protracted instance, you'd actually see something completely different, where people would actually start storing value in Bitcoin and protecting their asset classes there. So I think you would see a divergence over time. That being said, I think it could be the same in a bull run economy, where people are saying, "I'm going to take the excess and throw it into Bitcoin," and you could see a divergence from market sentiment there as well. So I think that we understand, just given its uniqueness and how it's been set up, that it is different than other markets. And I think that it gives off a lot of information that way, the same way that gold would over time.

• 54:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Midterms are now a huge talking point already. People are looking at the tariffs and economic policy. And some people say this is great, and midterms will be a landslide. Other people are saying there's no way the Republicans can win in the midterms. Put aside for a second the actual midterm elections and the results there. But there is a chance that some of the policy things that you guys want to do could be jeopardized if there is changes in the midterm. And so is it a race to try to get as much done as you can before those midterms? Or how do you guys think about timelines in terms of being able to accomplish the agenda that you have?

• 54:35Speaker 05

  Well, look, I mean, we've laid out the agenda, which is these two undecided priorities, right? Stable coins and market structure. And then we have the interagency activity, which we have the 180-day report. And we'll start working towards delivering on that result. But I think that the president has made it very clear to everybody, not I think, I know, that he wants to see all of this done before August recess. Because you're right. I mean, the political landscape can change very quickly. We're coming up on midterms in which I think we're going to have phenomenal results, because I think that the American people believe in this president. They believe in what he's trying to do, which has served their interest and not just the interest of the wealthy and powerful. And so I think that at the end of the day, they're going to reward him for all of his hard work and standing in the gap on behalf of them. So I think we'll have phenomenal results in the midterms.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  But look, we're playing on the field that we currently have. And we feel like we have an opportunity and an obligation to deliver on the president's promises. And I think we're well on our way of doing that.

• 55:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about on a global basis, one of the critiques that I hear people constantly say is, oh, this is for criminals. Oh, the bad actors are using this stuff. I think you and I probably understand that you probably don't want to use a public ledger to commit a crime because people can go and evaluate.

• 55:45Speaker 05

  It's not a good idea.

• 55:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, from a law enforcement perspective, they would love for you to do that. But talk about the policies that you guys are coming up with, the inter-agency work. There are things that you guys are going to create these frameworks for that may actually push those bad actors further away from crypto. But also, there are a lot of people who maybe continue to use this stuff. And so, how do you guys think about the law enforcement side, the terrorist financing, like all these big scary things that people talk about? You guys aren't a law enforcement agency, right? That's not your job, but it does feel like it's something that you're tangentially at least aware of. And so, how is that playing into this scenario?

• 56:22Speaker 05

  Well, you know, we have the DOJ that's part of this working group. I know they have phenomenal actors inside of our other law enforcement agencies in the United States that they're starting to really work on honing in what we need to prevent bad actors from using really any technologies related to the digital asset space to move money to finance illicit activity. And with that being said, we have that in mind. I know the folks in the Hill have that in mind. They're writing these pieces of legislation. There has to be certain AML requirements, anti-money laundering requirements for your viewers, and ensuring that we can protect US consumers and ultimately make sure that folks can also have the privacy that they need. And that's a big component of this that undergirds really what spawned so much interest in crypto in the first place is Americans care about privacy, and part

• 57:07Speaker 05

  of that is self custody. And so, we want to protect self custody rights for the American people as well. And those things don't have to be mutually exclusive either, right? I mean, look, you're KYC'd basically when you buy crypto in any exchange now, which means that people know who you are and they can identify your wallet. But we want people to be able to engage in private transactions in the way that best fits them. And this isn't due to illicit financial activity. This is just due to protecting the everyday rights of the American people. But with that, we also understand we need to prevent bad actors globally from getting their hands on funds. And that's not just with the digital That goes back to the institutional ways in which people move money too. And I'm hard pressed to believe, to be honest with you, that there's more illicit finance in the digital asset space than there is in the traditional financial space.

• 57:51Speaker 05

  They've just become really good at it because the rules haven't changed for a really long time. You don't hear about it as much. So whenever there's, you know, big events that happen in this space, everyone loves to jump on top of them. It becomes like, you know, a huge media story. Oh, this was used for that and this was used for another thing. Really, this is happening every day in terms of the traditional systems, you know, on a large scale. We obviously do our best to prevent that from happening, but we all know that it still happens. And here, I think that we have some of the smartest and best minds, one from private industry and two from government that'll come together and say, you know, how do we prevent bad actors such as the DPRK from getting their hands on funds and using these different payment rails in order to do so? I think that we'll come up with a very effective strategy on how to do that. I think that the regulatory framework that's developed will keep that in mind.

• 58:35Speaker 05

  And we have to balance the interest of protecting Americans' privacy with also protecting Americans more generally from allowing bad actors to get their hands on funds.

• 58:43Anthony Pompliano?

  I want to finish up with some paradoxes and get your thoughts. I don't think there's right answers to these questions, but it'd be interesting to hear your thought process. The first is that Bitcoin was really created and it was kind of an anti-establishment thing, right? It was like, hey, the global financial crisis happened. Here's this new thing that we're going to do on the internet. It's decentralized. It's outside of the system. US government now holds it. And I think there's a lot of people who see, you know, BlackRock or Fidelity or name, you know, the large financial organization. Those were the organizations that I think Bitcoin kind of started far away from. And it was, you know, something that was different then. How do you balance those two things, right? The ethos of the original kind of Bitcoin story versus now this like true mass adoption of all organizations, nation stage, etc.

• 59:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I have a fairly good analogy for you. The MAGA movement started as a pretty anti-establishment thing. And the president was elected to be the leader of the free world. And so, you know, he had to do a fairly good job of balancing, you know, the institutions with this movement that was undergirded by the principle of being anti-establishment. And so that's, you know, I know it's a strange analogy, but I think it's a good one as it relates to Bitcoin institutional adoption. You know, here, I think that regardless of how many institutions, you know, start participating in the digital asset space or welcoming, you know, Bitcoin in whatever capacity they choose to use it into their, into their systems or investment portfolios, there's, it still provides what people were looking for originally.

• 1:00:09Speaker 05

  It provides, you know, a way to store, you know, their value. It provides a way to move funds. It provides, you know, a way to ensure that you can do things, you know, in a private manner as you please, and that's not going to go away. I just think that the institutions now recognize that. They recognize how valuable it is and they want to be participants in it, which is ultimately a good thing.

• 1:00:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin, I think a lot of people have said, I want to store value there because I'm worried about the national debt or dollar debasement or name, whatever the, the exact thing that they're pointing to. It's the same reason that they've been buying real estate or gold or anything over the years. Now Bitcoin is this new tool. At the same time, Doge and many of the economic policies that are being put in place should be addressing that national debt and that annual deficit. And so is there some sort of paradox that's hard to hold where maybe the things that are good for the country are actually not good for Bitcoin and its future prospects?

• 1:00:58Speaker 05

  No, I don't think so. I think that, you know, eliminating fraud, waste and abuse, which certainly Elon has, has done and will continue to do with Doge, is good for the American people and I think it's also good for Bitcoin. I mean Bitcoin is different than the US dollar, just as gold is different than the US dollar. That being said, a strong US dollar is, I think, in my personal opinion, is also good for Bitcoin, is good for gold. You know, those, those things aren't mutually exclusive either. And so, yes, we should be cutting fraud, waste and abuse in our government, ensuring that we have a strong US dollar that the American people will benefit from. But then Bitcoin provides an avenue for, for them to protect their value in a completely different way, which is ultimately a good thing. And people have wanted to do that, as you noted, for thousands of years.

• 1:01:40Speaker 05

  And so, yeah, it is an interesting paradox, but it's one that I don't think is, is, is unsolvable in a sense of, you know, these two, these two asset classes, well, one being a currency and another being a commodity can benefit together as both strengthen. I think that that ultimately is the goal.

• 1:02:00Anthony Pompliano?

  You mentioned Doge. There's Doge, crypto coin Doge, and then there is Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency. It cracks me up that I see so many people in the media talking about Doge, the government organization, while there are probably people on the internet who are cracking up as well that that's the coin that they hold. How do you think about, again, kind of these memes where, in a weird way, like that is the message, right? Is Elon has a very specific viewpoint. He's been very kind of unique in his approach to things, but it obviously works. And so how do you balance things like that?

• 1:02:35Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I think it's fun at the end of the day. And even though there is a lot of seriousness that takes place when you're in this building and you're serving in these roles, it's still important that we have fun, not only here, but the American people more generally. And I think that they respond really well to activity that engages in some sort of comical nature, because you have to take light in the fact that we've gotten to where we are, but there's a solution that's there, and it's one the president's driving forward. And that creates a lot of optimism and energy. I mean, like, the one thing that's so unique in this building, and obviously I wasn't here in the prior administration, but you can feel the energy here. It's palpable. People are excited again. And I think they're excited because we finally have a leader that's willing to stand up and say enough is enough.

• 1:03:20Speaker 05

  We're not going to let the American people be abused the way that they have been over the course of the last many years. And so I think that the more that we can lean into the seriousness of delivering for the American people, while also having fun doing it, I think the better off we'll be in terms of getting people to respond to our message.

• 1:03:34Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that's a lot of people want to have fun. And my dad used to always tell me that there's nothing more fun than winning.

• 1:03:39Speaker 05

  That's right. And the president loves winning, and so do we, I can promise you.

• 1:03:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Biggest surprise so far in the first 75, 80 days? And then what is the thing that you're most looking forward to over the rest of the term?

• 1:03:50Speaker 05

  I'd say the biggest surprise to me is how well industries come together to iron out some of the wrinkles that they've had in years past. Because I think one thing that's held up, the digital asset space from progressing and maturing, was that there were natural conflicts that arose between different digital asset firms and what their ultimate motivations were. And so I think that they've now recognized, because of this Unique opportunity because of the administration that's here, because of the president that we have, because of having the right actors at these interagencies. Now is the time to really establish ourselves as being a legitimate player in the financial space and start helping the traditional players welcome the technology that they've built. And I think that that's been a very welcome surprise for me. I've also been surprised just how quickly we've been able to move

• 1:04:33Speaker 05

  under this administration, under this president's leadership. He trusts his advisors and then ultimately, he's just a tremendous leader in a sense of ushering things along and pushing things forward, which makes this a much more streamlined process. But what I'm looking forward to the most is really just seeing this president continue to work. I think that this week was a great testament to his leadership and a sense of, I think he gave the media quite a bit of whiplash, certainly the experts, so-called experts in the financial space, about what he was doing or the level of the playing field as it related to tariffs, international trade. But he's creative and it goes back to the art of the deal, right? I mean, this is a guy that, his art form truly is deal making.

• 1:05:15Speaker 05

  And I think what'll be exciting over the course of the rest of the term is just to see how he continues to engage in that process and deliver for the American people and produce results.

• 1:05:23Anthony Pompliano?

  There's a lot of people who hope he keeps tweeting whenever the market's about to go up, that's for sure. And then what is the thing you're most looking forward to kind of through the rest of the term?

• 1:05:32Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I mean, I'm really excited to usher in what we believe will truly revolutionize the financial technological system for decades to come. And I think that we're going to do that in very short order. So as I've described, we have this demolition phase, construction phase, implementation phase. I'm looking forward to the implementation phase. I mean, seeing the TradFi folks come to our office and say like, what technologies you think would work here? Or how do we plug this in here? That's exciting because that's going to truly change the way that people interact with their finances on a day-to-day basis. And we're getting to touch something that could alter the course of history and that's really exciting.

• 1:06:10Anthony Pompliano?

  I appreciate you taking the time to do this without the duty in the future.

• 1:06:12Speaker 05

  Absolutely. Thanks for coming on.