The Millennium Dome Heist | Lee Wenham on Robberies, Prison and Leaving Crime | 4

From burying cash to busting into the Dome, Lee Wenham's criminal career reads like a Hollywood script. But how does a small-time crook end up masterminding one of Britain's most audacious heists? Alice Levine and Matt Forde sit down with Wenham to uncover the man behind the plan. He reveals how breaking into the Dome was easier than cracking a cash point, why diamonds never impressed him and how prison life was a breeze (for him, at least). Plus, the one regret that still haunts this reformed robber. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:16Alice Levine?

  From Wondery, I'm Alice Levine.

• 0:19Matt Forde?

  And I'm Matt Ford.

• 0:20Alice Levine?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 0:32Alice Levine?

  Well, that was a heist and a half, Matt. How do we think that series went down? How do you feel?

• 0:36Matt Forde?

  I loved it. I loved the thrill of it all, how daft it all was. But really, the scandal here is the sheer audacity that these men had to target the Millennium Dome, at that point the most famous and controversial landmark in the country, and think that they could just walk out with a £350 million diamond in broad daylight. In hindsight, there's no way it could have worked. They're using materials literally brought from a joke shop.

• 1:01Alice Levine?

  It's like an edition of The Beano.

• 1:02Matt Forde?

  Yeah, it's like if the Bash Street Kids were trying to do a diamond heist.

• 1:05Alice Levine?

  If you're stealing something worth £350 million, spend more than your pocket money on all the equipment needed, maybe.

• 1:11Matt Forde?

  Well, they'd spent the rest on bubblegum and playing cards. So what alternative did they have? But hindsight is 2020, of course. Clearly, at the time, they were confident they were going to be able to do this and sail off into the sunset.

• 1:22Alice Levine?

  Exactly, and we could speculate on what made them so sure of themselves all day long. Or we could hear from one of the ringleaders. He's the author of the book Diamond Gangster. He's recently appeared in Guy Ritchie's Netflix documentary, The Diamond Heist, and he's now a landscape gardener who's turned his back on crime. Lee Wenham joins us next.

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• 2:40Matt Forde?

  Lee, I like to think of myself as a smart, talented person, a good team player, someone who can think on their feet. But despite all those attributes, nobody has ever approached me and offered me to be part of the biggest diamond heist in British history. So what made you the perfect candidate for the role?

• 2:56Speaker 04

  I suppose my background, going back to my childhood, you know, my dad was always into criminal things. I can remember every six, seven weeks, we were getting raided by the police. There was always all these old gangsters and lags about. Yeah, so it sort of started from there, really. To do a job like this, you get vetted, you know, by the other people. And obviously they had done their homework and they approached us to do it.

• 3:23Matt Forde?

  And was that scary as a kid? Or did that desensitize you to the fear of the police?

• 3:29Speaker 04

  I think the first couple of times it was scary, yeah, because I was five years old, you don't know what's going on. But after that, I just, I just fucking hate the police, you know, when they came in, I'd start growling at them and stuff like that, you know?

• 3:43Alice Levine?

  I love the idea that you were vetted, so they were like, we've done a CRB check. He has got criminal connections, he's in.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Exactly, exactly. That's how it is. Yeah, yeah.

• 3:52Alice Levine?

  And when they did the vetting and when they looked at your past and looked at what you'd done, what was it, do you think, that they saw in you that would make you the right person for the job?

• 4:02Speaker 04

  Because of the premises that we had. We had a farm to get the speedboat ready, the JCB. Obviously, I went out and stole the JCB. You know, it was a perfect base.

• 4:14Matt Forde?

  How old were you when you first got involved in crime?

• 4:18Speaker 04

  I stole my first JCB at 15, 15 years old.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was fifteen.

• 4:23Matt Forde?

  Did you get caught?

• 4:24Speaker 04

  No, no, I never, until the Millennium Dome robbery, I'd never got caught for anything in my life. I'd been picked up by the police and, you know, um, and they've, they've not charged me. I got away with everything until then. Yeah, yeah.

• 4:40Matt Forde?

  And why did you nick the J C B at fifteen?

• 4:43Speaker 04

  To order, to order.

• 4:45Matt Forde?

  Okay, so it wasn't just for the thrill of it?

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Not for the thrill, no, to order.

• 4:48Matt Forde?

  It was a business?

• 4:48Speaker 04

  It was a business for the money. I'd done that all my, all my life, yeah, up until then. Yeah.

• 4:53Alice Levine?

  So this is like when somebody's, you know, the butcher's son or their dad works in construction and they get trained up, they're an apprentice for their dad. This was the family business in a way.

• 5:02Speaker 04

  It was the family business. It wasn't just machinery. Um, my dad was into everything. I can go back as far as, um, sort of late seventies, early eighties, you know. He had two farms at the time and we had speed factories on the farm, just like a, a complete, um, lab, you know, of, of, of making speed. Um, and I used to look after them and, and run them, yeah. At that, then I was fourteen years old. I wasn't doing it myself, there was guys in, but I was blocking them up and, and getting them ready to sell, yeah.

• 5:33Alice Levine?

  You're a manager, you're a middle management.

• 5:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, you could say that.

• 5:37Matt Forde?

  But also a scientist.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I wouldn't go that far.

• 5:41Alice Levine?

  That is unbelievable. I mean, you say that with a kind of glint in your eye and a smile on your face, but that, that is extraordinary, isn't it really?

• 5:49Speaker 04

  Looking at it now, yeah, yeah, it is, it is a bit of, it was a mad life, a mad, yeah, yeah, really crazy. Look from what I'd say, I don't mean to rib, but a normal person would look at it and think, fucking hell.

• 6:02Matt Forde?

  So then, I mean, do you think of it as a career? Did you then progress through the ranks?

• 6:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was a career. I, I, I started off doing that, then back to the machinery and then I was, from there, um.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  When I got to my early twenties, I'd done my first cash point with a J C B, rammed it in a place in Kent and ended up doing, I think it was either nine or ten of them. Um, they'd have like thirty five, forty grand in them. There'd be three of us. Early twenties is a lot of money, you know. Um, and then from there, I'd started bringing over cigarettes from abroad. Um, and then got into drugs, bringing drugs over.

• 6:45Alice Levine?

  Were you very savvy then? If you were never caught or never charged for these things, how did you get away with it? I mean, ramming a J C B into a cash point, it feels like we could probably track those guys. That that that feels easy to do.

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, but when I, when I was, I was doing that, it, it was when they first started putting cash points in walls, you know? So, um, there wasn't like cameras and stuff like that. So it, there's, somebody told me about doing it and I just said, you, you're talking bollocks. You, you, you can't do it. But we set it all up and it just went like that. And so we just, uh, we just carried on doing it. I never ever got caught, never got caught.

• 7:21Matt Forde?

  And did you ever think about the future? Did you have ambitions? Was, was there anyone you were trying to emulate?

• 7:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, every Saturday and Sunday, I've got two brothers and a sister and I'm the middle child, you know? I got on with my dad, but I, I also quite a few beatings from him as a child, you know? But when he ever had trouble or he'd, he'd go down the pub with all these sort of gangster mates, it, it would be me, it'd take with him. So it was them really. There was some guys from out of South London, um, the Hayward, the Hayward brothers, they, they'd done a documentary years ago. Um, we used to be with them all the time and, and I just, I just admired the way they, they carried themselves and, um, the way that they were always joking around and always had pots and pots of money. So, yeah, I wanted to be like that, I suppose, yeah.

• 8:04Matt Forde?

  But did you ever think, I'm going to do one big job and then retire?

• 8:08Speaker 04

  Not up until the, the dome robbery. I enjoyed it, you know, and that's the wrong thing to say, but I enjoyed it. I used, I loved doing it. I'd go up in the morning and I, and I. Just be for hours searching for what I wanted, like machinery. And then it, and then I'd go back at five o'clock in the morning and take it. But I enjoyed doing it. I loved it. It was such a buzz all the time, you know. It's good money. I was in it just for the money, but the buzz as well. Even today, um, I was with a guy who'd done the Brink's map robbery, Tony White. I was over in last weekend and we were both sitting there sort of reminiscing on how we miss it. You know, we don't do it these days and we miss it. He's eighty and I'm, and I'm straight. I don't do anything anymore.

• 8:49Alice Levine?

  Did you ever think about the risk? I mean, it sounds like not.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  No, very stupid of me, but I didn't. Because I got aware of it for so long. Even coming up to the big robbery, you know, it didn't even enter my mind how long I was gonna get or if I got caught. I never, I know it's stupid things to say, but I never gave it a fall.

• 9:08Alice Levine?

  It feels like the things you were doing was, you know, they were dangerous and they were really risky.

• 9:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:14Alice Levine?

  But there was never a moment where you thought, oh, actually I might do a normal job. I might do a straight job. I won't go down this path.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I've done straight jobs in between. I had a landscape business then. I've always been quite successful with the, I've got a landscape business now. But when you're bringing home, say eighty-five, eighty-six, it was, I was bringing home two, three hundred pound a week doing the landscaping. And the other work, I was bringing home fifteen grand a week. You know, who wants to go landscaping?

• 9:43Alice Levine?

  Both J C B jobs.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I still drive a J C B today.

• 9:49Alice Levine?

  And as you're progressing along this criminal path or up the ladder, you know, the jobs are getting bigger.

• 9:56Alice Levine?

  What age are you and where are you at in your private life? Family life must have changed the way you looked at things.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  I had my first daughter in nineteen ninety-one and I did slow down for a couple of years, to be honest, um, to spend time with my daughter. And then again, I just got the bug and I was back at it. Um, yeah.

• 10:17Alice Levine?

  Was it an addiction, do you think?

• 10:19Speaker 04

  I suppose it would be, yeah, yeah. Cause I, cause it's like, I get withdrawal symptoms now and I suppose it would be, yeah, yeah. I find myself driving down the road and looking at things and, and just laugh at myself. What are you doing?

• 10:32Alice Levine?

  What do you think? What do you, what are you looking at?

• 10:34Speaker 04

  I'm looking at, um, it's true, but I do look at cash points and, and how they can be, I look at, that's a go of that one. I can, that, that one's definitely.

• 10:42Alice Levine?

  Good location?

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I have to sort of pull myself up and stop, you know?

• 10:48Matt Forde?

  But is there like a, a sort of microdose version of this? Is that, how do you scratch the itch? Do you just watch a film instead?

• 10:55Speaker 04

  No, I, um, I kind of drink. That's, that, that, that's sort of, you know, then I, then I just see a lot, I get half pissed and I sort of laugh and say, what the fuck are you doing?

• 11:06Speaker 04

  But yeah, yourself. Yeah.

• 11:08Matt Forde?

  Cause a lot of your raids were so creative. One of our favourite parts of the story is the way you reused Frey Bento's pies to look like IEDs that you would put on the side of vehicles.

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:22Matt Forde?

  How did you come up with that idea?

• 11:23Speaker 04

  Um, we were, the whole gang, we were down the farm getting stuff ready and I just, there's like a little local shop. I just went down the, drove down the shop, um, getting a few bits for, for, for lunch. And I just saw the, I saw the tins on the side and I was just sitting there staring at them for about five minutes. So I bought half a dozen, went back and just messed around with them and got some paint done, different like colours, making camouflage and then put a little, uh, a little bleeping light on top. And made that sort of like, I didn't know the old fashioned areas I'd pull out, made one empty, got a switch in your hand. And it, it just, it just looked, they're absolute bollocks. It's, yeah. And, and they worked, they worked.

• 12:01Matt Forde?

  And would you eat the pie first?

• 12:04Speaker 04

  Don't be silly.

• 12:05Matt Forde?

  Well, I wasn't sure if it was the empty tin.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  There wouldn't be any weight in there.

• 12:08Matt Forde?

  Okay.

• 12:10Alice Levine?

  You can't eat twelve of them, Matt.

• 12:12Matt Forde?

  I don't know.

• 12:12Alice Levine?

  You'd be very sluggish for doing that burglary.

• 12:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:16Alice Levine?

  And we're talking about the Securicor fans now, right?

• 12:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:19Alice Levine?

  So how did that scheme come about?

• 12:25Speaker 04

  Uh, the one at Elsford, um, you don't just sit there and say, um, oh, there's a, there's a, there's a curry for them, let's rob it. There's always someone on the inside, gives us information, tells us what's, when it comes out, you know, how to attack it and stuff like that. So obviously we, we had an inside guy told us, um, how much was going to be on there was eight million, nine hundred thousand in cash on it.

• 12:47Alice Levine?

  And was there something different to that job? Because you were making good money doing other things. So what was it about, was it just that it was more money or was there something else about that job that drew you in?

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Both really. One was, my cut out of that would have been out of the nine million, I'd have, I'd have ended up with a million and a half. You know, so I wouldn't have had to go back to work for a long time. I planned on just buying land and, and property with, with that money, you know? But also I wanted, I wanted to go that step further, you know, I wanted to, I don't know why, but it, I, I'd done everything else. I, in my league, I'd, I'd done it and I just wanted to go that step further. And I started, at the time, I suppose, I wanted people to sort of not admire me, but, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Respect me, I suppose. Respect me, yeah, I, I, I'm, the people that we used to go drinking in the pub, they'd all done it, been there and done it, you know? So it was my turn to do it.

• 13:43Matt Forde?

  And when you're talking about having a million and a half in cash.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:47Matt Forde?

  Are you then thinking, well, I can launder that through the landscaping business? Or how would you have accounted for that if you're trying to buy land? How do you tell the authorities you've all of a sudden come into that amount of money?

• 13:58Speaker 04

  No, um, because I, I come from a, a gypsy travelling, um, background. And I know loads of people have got land and, uh, other, other travelling people and, and you, and you can go to them, give them the cash for the land, you know? And if you give them a hundred grand for it, they, they put it on paper that they sold it to you for five grand. You know, so that's how I'd, I'd get rid of money, money like that.

• 14:20Matt Forde?

  But would you keep the money in cash or would you try and get it into the bank?

• 14:23Speaker 04

  No, no, I keep, I, I used to bury it. Bury the money.

• 14:27Matt Forde?

  So what happens then, when, when that becomes, like, when they change the notes?

• 14:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:34Matt Forde?

  Which happens relatively frequently.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:37Matt Forde?

  What do you do with all that money you've buried?

• 14:39Speaker 04

  I never had that problem. I've got to be honest. I never had that problem. It, it, it was, it'll only be there for like a month or two and then, then I'd, I'd be putting it into something and buying cars or whatever, you know? Um, so I, I never had that problem, but I, oh, oh, I'd never, I had a bank account and I always kept it, I've under two hundred quid in the bank account and I'd bury the fifteen grand a week. I'd, I'd just keep burying it all over. But some, some of them, I even forgot where I buried them.

• 15:04Matt Forde?

  So there will be.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  There's cash still out there, but it's in old notes.

• 15:05Matt Forde?

  Cash in the floor?

• 15:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:08Matt Forde?

  Lee.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  I know.

• 15:11Matt Forde?

  Because obviously you can't, you don't want to write down a map of where you buried it because that'd be evidence.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  Exactly. You can't, no, you can't have anything like that around, you know? No. It was, it was only two. I think it was two that I couldn't find, but there was thirty grand in, in them two.

• 15:23Alice Levine?

  Ooh. And where do you bury them?

• 15:26Speaker 04

  Uh, I buried them on the farm, in, in, in next door's, uh, farm. I'd, I'd go in, into their, their side. So if the police come, if they did find it, it was his, it's not mine.

• 15:35Alice Levine?

  And if the neighbour found it, he'd be like, yeah, this mine, not yours.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  They had a touch. Yeah.

• 15:40Alice Levine?

  Wow. Because when people say, oh, you know, we buried the evidence, we, you know, we, we, we, we buried, we, people usually mean it metaphorically, but you actually mean you went and dug a hole.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  Dug a hole, yeah, dug a hole, took it in the tin and took it in the ground, yeah.

• 15:54Matt Forde?

  So when the securical van job fails, did you ever think, okay, well, I've learnt my lesson, I'm going to go back to what I know? Or were you still determined to pull off something big?

• 16:06Speaker 04

  No, that, there, there was no stopping, which, which is kind of going to keep going and, and, until we scored. No, we, we just kept going. Yeah. Yeah. And then we got nicked. There you go. Such is life. It's all character building.

• 16:19Matt Forde?

  But what about people who say, because some people might say, well, hang on.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  Of course, there's going to be loads, I know you're going to say.

• 16:23Matt Forde?

  You know, the guy who drives the van gets traumatised or, um, you know, the, the, these are assets that belong to other people, you know, there's a morality to this.

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, well, listen, if a lion goes in the jungle and has to feed its babies, it takes what it wants, doesn't it? So that's what we do.

• 16:42Matt Forde?

  And do you just think, oh, well, people will get over it, they'll be fine?

• 16:45Speaker 04

  One thing I'd never ever do, and to this day, I'd never go into someone's house and steal off them, you know, I just think that's just, I think that's disgusting, to be honest. I'd never mug anybody, that's just, I just detest anything like that. We always hit big firms with money, well insured, you know, it's like the beers, they would have been well insured for that, it wouldn't hurt them, would it? One little diamond, all the diamonds they've got.

• 17:13Alice Levine?

  And so did you ever think about sort of collateral damage to Matt's point, the people around these events? Did you worry about people getting hurt?

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely worried about people getting hurt, yeah. With the Elfrid Kurakor lorry, I also put the bombs on the side, but they weren't bombs, it was just a meat pie.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  They're very secure in the cab where they are, so they're not going to get hurt. We just put them on there to frighten them, because there's a panic button inside the lorry. As soon as that panic button, then the police are there in seconds. So it was just to get their hands, to put their hands up on the windscreen, you know, we definitely never intended to hurt anyone, that is the truth, yeah.

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• 19:42Matt Forde?

  So let's talk about the dome heist. Let's start with Ray Betson, because he's the man who comes up with the whole idea to raid the dome.

• 19:48Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 19:49Matt Forde?

  What sort of bloke was he?

• 19:51Speaker 04

  Ray was very charming.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  I got on really well with him. Very quiet-spoken. But he had this look in his eye, and his eyes were like black. You didn't mess with this guy. But 100% genuine sort of person who I'd go to wherever. I trust him 100%. But I got on really well with Ray, yeah.

• 20:15Alice Levine?

  And how did you feel when he first approached you about the Millennium Dome? Did you think he was out of his mind?

• 20:21Speaker 04

  I was a little bit skeptical about it. I've got to be honest. It's a bit James Bond-y, wasn't it? It's a bit over the top. So I did, I went up to the O2 Dome and had a look for myself.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  And when I walked around, uh, it was, it was doable. It was doable.

• 20:38Alice Levine?

  Is that what you thought? You thought, oh, this is.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. In, in fact, I thought it was, it was ridiculous the security they had around it. It was, it was, it was, it was easy.

• 20:46Alice Levine?

  They're a harder cash point.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah. I've, I've done harder cash points. Yeah. It was easy. It was ridiculous how easy it was.

• 20:53Matt Forde?

  And what about Terry Millman? So.

• 20:55Speaker 04

  Oh, God.

• 20:55Matt Forde?

  He was.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  You have to bring him up, didn't you?

• 20:58Matt Forde?

  But, you know, he was older, had a lot of experience as an armed robber. He also got caught for drink driving, which ultimately turned the police on to you. Um, you've previously described him as a fucking nightmare.

• 21:07Speaker 04

  He is a fucking, he wasn't, sorry, he was a fucking nightmare.

• 21:09Matt Forde?

  So in what way?

• 21:11Speaker 04

  He'd, what, the, the, the months leading up to, to it, we, we, we were, um, obviously doing, getting lots of things ready, speedboats and JCPs and nail guns and stuff like that. But he stayed on the farm with us because he had nowhere to stay and, and.

• 21:28Speaker 04

  I'd take him to the pub and he'd just get drunk and he'd wanna fight everyone. And then, then there was another incident, one of, one of the vehicles that we get ready. Um, change all the number plates on it, put it in storage, ready to go for that day. He went in there and just got the keys to it and took it out on the, on the, on the, on the piss, you know, driving around. Smashed into the side of a pub and, oh, he was just absolute nightmare. He was a nightmare. Lovely guy. I really liked Terry and he's very, very ballsy guy as well. He'd, he'd. Done numerous armed robberies in the past, loads of armed robberies. Um, but, uh, he was just a lot, but he, he was, really was.

• 22:02Alice Levine?

  So in contrast, did you approach it like a professional? I mean, it sounds like part of what you liked about these jobs was kind of being meticulous and finding the right. Things that you'd need and, you know, what was your approach? Not having fights in the pub by the sounds of it?

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Yes, took it very seriously. There, there was lots of, it was lots, lots of laughs. Um, you know. We all had jokes, but when it came down to, to something that you had to get ready or something, everyone was very serious. I, I taught Ray Betson how to drive a JCP. She couldn't drive a JCP, so I took him around the field a few times to, to get him to drive. But, yeah.

• 22:38Alice Levine?

  I don't really want somebody who doesn't know how to drive a JCP on this gig.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Exactly. But he picked it up very quick. He was good. Um.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, very serious, very serious. It's it's it's uh uh one of the biggest audacious jobs in in in in English British history.

• 22:56Alice Levine?

  And your life is in the hands of these other men as well. So you kind of you need to trust that they are being professional, for want of a better word.

• 23:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, they they um apart from Terry, everyone done their job perfectly, you know. So I I I didn't worry in that, but but I I with I always like to keep a very, very low profile. I mean, if we go to the pub, you know, I don't even I don't talk to anyone. I just talk to people that I know and, you know, just try and keep my head down. But Terry, we see he's just a live wire. He's just a live wire. But um yeah, the rest of the guys were were bang on, to be honest, really. Yeah, they were.

• 23:32Matt Forde?

  So you wreck you the dome, you see the diamond, you think it's doable.

• 23:35Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 23:36Matt Forde?

  What was it like to look at that diamond? Was it impressive?

• 23:38Speaker 04

  Do you know what? I've said this before, it it diamonds don't impress me at all. Um obviously, it was a massive I've not seen a stone that size before. Um no, I wasn't impressed by them. Sorry, no.

• 23:49Matt Forde?

  What about the rest of the dome? Was it as bad as people made out?

• 23:53Speaker 04

  No, they they done like um this display thing on the on the inside, people on ropes and stuff. That that was quite good. That was quite good. But the rest of it was crap, to be honest. Yeah. And the money zone, the money zone, a million pound in in cash.

• 24:06Matt Forde?

  And have you been since it's become the O two?

• 24:08Speaker 04

  Yes, I have.

• 24:09Matt Forde?

  And what's it like when you go back?

• 24:10Speaker 04

  The first time I went, I went um and a friend, he died now, famous guitarist Jeff Beck, he was playing there with Van Morrison. Um and he we had backstage passes to go. So

• 24:24Speaker 04

  when you come in, you come you come in through that door and the door is just to the left where where they crashed through. And that was I had to take I had I I was videoing it. I don't know why I was videoing the door. Yeah, I just sort of take stock, you know. It was a bit.

• 24:37Alice Levine?

  Yeah, like I don't need the pass, actually. I can get myself in.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  No, but I was a little bit disappointed. There wasn't a plaque or something. So this is where they, you know. Yeah, but uh.

• 24:45Alice Levine?

  When you're prepping to do the heist, is anybody talking about the potential that it will fail?

• 24:53Speaker 04

  Um, no, there wasn't one word of that. No.

• 24:59Alice Levine?

  So you're not even having a conversation that says, if we get busted, if somebody gets busted, this is the party line, you know, this is what we do if something goes wrong.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  It goes without saying, you don't have to say it, you don't, you know, you don't have to, everyone knows. If we all get nicked, it's no comment in interviews, you don't say a word. And you just take your punishment. As I say, you're vetted before, so you, you know that, you know, you know what to do, you know the score, you know.

• 25:25Matt Forde?

  And is there an element of it, you've got to have a positive mindset because you want to pull it off. You can't go in there with a head full of doubts.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  No, no, I was positive. We're all very positive it was gonna happen.

• 25:34Alice Levine?

  This is why I wouldn't make the team. Why have I even brought up failure?

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  You're out.

• 25:43Alice Levine?

  Yeah, first round of vetting.

• 25:45Matt Forde?

  So in a way, are certain criminals optimists?

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'd say so. There wasn't any negativity at all. Everyone just thought it was gonna, and, and it, and let's be honest. Even the police have said, the beers have said on, on, on interview, it would have happened. If the police weren't there waiting for us, it would have happened. And it would have done, definitely. I strongly believe that, yeah.

• 26:07Matt Forde?

  During the preparation for the, for the dome job, you constantly had a sense that you were being followed. Why did you think that?

• 26:14Speaker 04

  It wasn't constant, it was, it was towards the end. Um. Now, the J C B had gone from the farm, I'd taken it up to the old coal yard, which was in Plumstead, near the, near the dome. Um. There was something else, some more work I had to do on it, there was something wasn't right. While I was working on it, there was, there was like a bank along, along the back of this yard. And there was a guy walking his dog, an Halsation dog. And he just kept turning around and looking and then he was, you know, I'd, I'd make out not, I'd make out I'm working, but I'm looking at him. And then I just thought, this, this isn't right, you know, he isn't right. But you can't, because we're so far in, we spent thousands on this, months and months, you're just being paranoid.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  So then I let that go and then I done, I went up to the, to the O two with my brother, brother in law. Um.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  And I had to walk around with him.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  And as I was coming out of the the big doors, there was two cleaners. Um, with like bins, walking along with bins. And you know, you just feel someone's staring at you. I just turned around like that and they were both looking at me. And just quickly looked away and I thought this is on top. But, you know, I just, I thought, come on, you're being stupid here. You're gonna get all that money. Yeah.

• 27:33Alice Levine?

  And so how did it feel when you pieced it together and you realised that your instincts were right and that they were people

• 27:41Alice Levine?

  following you?

• 27:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, because once, once you're obviously arrested and you're put on remand and then you get stacks and stacks of paperwork of the surveillance. And, uh, because I couldn't, I couldn't read or write before. I, I learnt to read and write in prison. So because you're in Belmarsh, there's, there's no TV at the time and there's no, hardly any staff. So you're in your cell twenty two hours a day. Just come out for food, half an hour's exercise, that's it. So I just picked it up, picked the paperwork up and started looking through it. And I thought, yeah, I remember that time. Yeah, I remember that, you know, it's, it's, it's starting to come back. Yeah, that did happen. The surveillance was, was very, they were even, they were laying in edges for, I think about three months, wa-watching us. Yeah.

• 28:23Alice Levine?

  You must have cooked yourself because it was an Alsatian.

• 28:29Alice Levine?

  Come on.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  You picked up on that, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, if, listen, you're next. Wha-what's the point of torturing yourself? Do you know what I mean? There's no point, is there?

• 28:40Matt Forde?

  So take us through the day of the raid. Let's start at the, in the morning. You wake up on the day of the raid.

• 28:47Matt Forde?

  How did you feel first thing?

• 28:49Speaker 04

  Ah, I don't think I slept that night, to be honest. I had a couple of hours sleep. Um, got up. I usually go for a walk in the morning, so I went for a walk.

• 28:58Speaker 04

  But I know exactly what time it's going down. Obviously, I know what time they're going in. I wasn't there on the day. Um, I wasn't needed on that one and I was getting the same money. So why would you want to be there, you know? Um, on the morning, I went for a walk, couldn't walk, came back to the house and I was just at the table, fiddling with my fingers and stuff like that. Put the radio on till I knew exactly, I'm half past nine, that's when they're, that's when they're going in. So I'm, I'm, I'm talking to myself, you know, right? They're at the coal yard, they're starting the J C P up. They're all in the, in, you know, I know, I know every step. Um, and I'm waiting to hear it on the radio and then I looked down the road and it was just black with police. There was, there were everywhere. There was about a hundred police everywhere.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  Two guns came through the window and asked my name and then they dragged me out and put a gun to my head and, and that's when I was arrested.

• 29:44Alice Levine?

  And what went through your mind then?

• 29:47Speaker 04

  If I'm really totally honest, which I've said all along, first thing I thought about was the money. I've lost all that money. Um, but you're numb, you're sort of numb. Once you know you've been nicked, you're sort of, you know. Obviously, it's a sinking feeling, but and then, and then I was like, how long am I going to be away from my kids? Because I had two daughters by then.

• 30:05Alice Levine?

  And are you thinking about the others? Are you thinking that definitely means that they've been caught as well?

• 30:12Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they've definitely been caught. They wouldn't just, uh. Because obviously the police have to, they have to arrest everybody at the same time because people can't, can't get away. They're here on the radio and they're gone.

• 30:23Alice Levine?

  And who other than the people directly involved knew about your involvement?

• 30:28Speaker 04

  No one. You don't let your partner know, not just because you can't trust them, because you don't want to get them involved, you know? So when, when they come to the door and, and there was, they raided her and she was shocked, absolutely shocked what was going on. But, uh, no, I, I, I didn't let anyone know at all. No one. Only, only the people that I worked with.

• 30:46Alice Levine?

  She's thinking he's really messed up one of those gardens.

• 30:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:52Matt Forde?

  What about the mood in the group after this then?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Um, you you're taken to a police station first and I was taken because there were so many of us that that they could, there was, there was a police station in London. So I was taken to Chatham in Kent. I was a day and a night there. And then we were all brought up to London to Woolwich, um, to go to the magistrate's court. And that's when we first see each other after about three or four days. And stupid, but we're all laughing and sort of shaking hands, you know? Um, and when we went in front of the magistrate's court, all got put on remand. And, and this is true, the time we'd been processed and gone through, it was dinnertime in the prison. And as we came on, I remember Bob Adams, again, another of, uh, had been doing it the same job for years.

• 31:39Speaker 04

  He went, rubbed his hands together, called, he said, the Thursday night we get a roast.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  I was a little bit soft, shut up, Bob, for fuck's sake. Um, but as we come on, everybody, we all come on together and everybody just stood up and was not cheering, but sort of clapping and, and coming up. Do you want some fags? Do you need anything? You know, it was quite a proud moment, really.

• 32:02Alice Levine?

  Was there a sense of betrayal or failure within the group afterwards?

• 32:06Speaker 04

  No, no, that there was only one small incident. Um, all we were doing was, was, was getting ready for the trial, you know, because we'd, I'd say we're all together. So we were just getting ready for the trial, who's going to say this and who's going to say that. But then, then the police came in after about three months and arrested me again, me and my dad for the Alfred robbery. They said they found a glove with my DNA in, in, inside the getaway van. Um, so now I'm charged with both. Now I'm for the dome robbery, I wasn't there. You know, I'm looking at five or six years with the other one, there's guns used, shots let off. And you could get up to thirty years for that. That's a big, big difference.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  Um, I was okay with it. I don't know why. I was stupidly, I was okay with it and. Going to see my solicitor every week, he was coming and we were just getting ready for that trial. But my dad had really suffered with it. He lost seven stone in seven months in there. Just, he really suffered. It came out one morning and he's having an argument with Ray Betson. And he's poking him in the chest. My dad's, he'd never backed down to anyone, you know, even Ray was a very powerful guy. He's poking him. I said, what the fuck are you doing? And Ray's just quietly come over and he said, your dad wants me to go and make a, um, statement to say it wasn't anything to do with it. He said, I'm gonna do that. Obviously, when I stand up in court, he said, I'm gonna do that. He said, but can you have a word? I said, Ray, just leave him to me. And I had a chat with him and calmed him down.

• 33:34Matt Forde?

  For most people, going to prison would be terrifying.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:37Matt Forde?

  It's my idea of hell. I have nightmares about going to prison.

• 33:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:42Matt Forde?

  So it never felt like a scary place?

• 33:45Speaker 04

  No, because as I said, the first time I'd ever been nicked, um. But because we were all together,

• 33:53Speaker 04

  you get different categories in prison and we were all A cat. It's like the, the, the top of the tree, you know, so they can't put us with loads of other people. And we just spent the first fifteen months all together and

• 34:05Speaker 04

  I've got to be honest, I was okay with it. I was okay with prison. At one point, I think I was in there about three months and, and somebody sent the photograph of my, of my two daughters. And, you know, I don't care about people knowing this, but, you know, I, I just, I broke down. We were sitting down in association, I run up to myself, I had a little cry to myself and Aldo, uh, he came up and he sat with me for a little bit and we had a chat. And then I was all right, but I found it all right. I found it all right. I know, and, and Belmarsh is one of the scariest prisons in this country. It's a very scary place. Something happens every day in there. Bell's going off every day and someone's being stabbed and whatever, yeah. Yeah, but I was okay.

• 34:42Matt Forde?

  So you're in your cell twenty two hours a day?

• 34:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:44Matt Forde?

  How are you occupying yourself?

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Um, that's a good question.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  I used to sleep a lot. I I could I could just go to sleep a lot and I'd get up and I'd do exercises in the cell. We'd talk out the window overnight. Um yeah, there's nothing else you can do.

• 35:01Matt Forde?

  Because the tabloid view of prison is computer games, plasma screen tellies, mobile phones, as well as drugs and weapons and everything else.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:09Matt Forde?

  There any truth to that?

• 35:10Speaker 04

  Some truth in it today, today, but back back then in two thousand, I know it was only twenty five years ago, but there wasn't any drugs, there wasn't any TVs, there wasn't any computer games, there wasn't any phones. Um. But on once I'd been sentenced, I was I was moved from there to a prison in Cambridge called Whitmore. It's an A cat prison. But it it was like sort of being released because the massive wings, you've got a a full size um kitchen where you can cook all your own food, there's a full size snooker table, um you've got a TV. You know, and and you you're out of your cell all day. They just unlock you in the morning and and bang you up at eight o'clock at night. Yeah.

• 35:48Matt Forde?

  But isn't giving people access to things like snooker balls and Hobbs and cutlery.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  I know.

• 35:58Matt Forde?

  In a category A prison, slightly risky.

• 36:00Speaker 04

  It's risky, yeah, of course, yeah. And and again, I saw things happen there with people getting stabbed in the back of the neck and snooker balls put into socks and stuff like that, yeah. I don't know, I don't I don't understand the the physics of of um of prison, but it is obviously it's a dangerous place. But I never felt threatened at all, not once, not once. Because I'm a nice guy.

• 36:20Matt Forde?

  Well, is that it? Are you the sort of guy that would just avoid the dangerous people? Can you go to a category A prison? Someone like me and be safe?

• 36:28Speaker 04

  You wouldn't, no.

• 36:29Matt Forde?

  No. What would happen to a pretty boy like me?

• 36:34Speaker 04

  Moving on.

• 36:37Speaker 04

  No, um it's what you're away for as well, you know. People knew what I was I was I was away for before I got there, before I got to the prison, and people were welcome, were waiting for me to come. So you you've again, you've got respect in in the in the prison from people, but never once felt threatened at all, no. But I I I get on with everyone and I try to get on with everyone, you know, I I treat people like they treat me, yeah.

• 36:59Alice Levine?

  When you say people are waiting for you to arrive.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 37:02Alice Levine?

  What do you mean by that?

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Well, I was, I suppose all of us were like celebrities, you know, we we'd um even though we didn't get the prize, but we'd we'd all done one of the biggest robbery, attempted the biggest robbery in in Britain, so.

• 37:18Speaker 04

  Everyone's looking up to us. You know, it's like, it's like people you say, oh God, I'm in prison with Reggie Craig and stuff like that. It felt like that, yeah.

• 37:25Alice Levine?

  How did your daughters feel about your time in prison?

• 37:29Speaker 04

  Um, as far as what I could see, they're okay, you know, because they'd just come up on a visit once a fortnight and they were, they were very young at the time and we were just playing in the visiting room and, you know, and I'd try and speak to them every night on the phone. But I went back, I'd done a small, a small, like documentary interview about three weeks ago. And it's the first time I went back to Balmash on the outside because they wanted to film it from the outside. And I was, that's the first time I felt, I, I've sort of taken back. I just saw how people saw it from, from the other side, you know, what they went through. And that was the first time, very selfish of me, it was the first time I, I realised how, what it was like for other people, for my family.

• 38:09Alice Levine?

  And what did you feel then?

• 38:11Speaker 04

  I was, I was gutted, gutted. And for the rest of the day in the evening, I, I just couldn't stop thinking about it. Yeah.

• 38:24Matt Forde?

  Hi, I'm Kenya Paris.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 38:31Matt Forde?

  We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Rich Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?

• 38:55Matt Forde?

  I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for a free trial audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches, your ears burn.

• 39:26Alice Levine?

  You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 39:46Alice Levine?

  You mentioned that you only did four, I say only, did four and a half years. Why was that in the end?

• 39:52Speaker 04

  How they got me on the, on the Oxford robbery.

• 39:56Speaker 04

  Obviously, they get feedback from prison about all us, goes, but goes back to the police. And they, they knew my dad was doing, not doing too good. Um, he had angina and every fucking thing in the book he had, he drove me mad. I couldn't wait to get him out of prison, to be honest with you. So on the day of the trial started, they came down and said to me, if you go guilty, we'll let your dad go.

• 40:16Alice Levine?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 40:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:17Alice Levine?

  So there's a. What an offer.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I said, yeah, just fucking get rid of him. Do you know, he was doing weirding. I said, no, no problem. But so I went guilty from beginning. So I, I got full credit for going guilty and not going for a six month trial.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  And I got nine years for the Oxford robbery. And I got four years for the Dome robbery to run concurrent. So you only do the nine years. But the nine years that you do, you, if, if you behave yourself in prison, you do half. E- everyone's the same.

• 40:44Alice Levine?

  Prison maths is crazy.

• 40:46Speaker 04

  I know, that's mad, isn't it? I don't understand why, why just give me four and a half years and I'll do it for four and a half years. Cause you, you, even though you've come out at four and a half years, your parole goes on till the, the nine years. That's how it works like that. So if you, and you fuck up in that time, you, you're called back in. Yeah, yeah, that's how it is.

• 41:01Matt Forde?

  Are you in touch with any of the other members of the gang?

• 41:05Speaker 04

  No, I haven't seen them since I came out of prison.

• 41:07Matt Forde?

  Why?

• 41:09Speaker 04

  Um, I think one of our conditions on our, our parole was, was not to meet up with, with, you know, not to, to get in touch with them. But it wasn't because of that. I, I don't know, we just all grew apart, really.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  Ray Betson was still active in the big stuff and, you know, I didn't want to get involved in, in that. So, yeah, didn't get involved with him because he, he got, I think he was out a few months and he got done for another one. Got 13 years for the same sort of thing.

• 41:36Alice Levine?

  I mean, people do say that prison is like university for criminals. You know, you're making contacts, you're actually coming out better equipped than you went in. Were you tempted to, to turn back to that life when you left prison?

• 41:50Alice Levine?

  For the purposes of the tape, please covering a face with a sand.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, of course I was, of course I was. And I did for a while. Back to the machinery and stuff like that. And I did, I did, just quick, I'll tell you a story. I, uh, someone. The police put a camera on someone's drive. Um, and there was a massive tractor that we, we nicked. Um, and I dropped this car off to, to drive it to, to a different location. And they, they filmed me, me dropping him off. Um, so they put a warrant out for my arrest and I voluntarily went in and, uh.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  The, the arresting officer, um, he was at the D C or wherever he was, but he was fanatical about tractors. He, he, he had little bottles of tractors at home. The, the other, cause there was always two police, the other one said he's mad about tractors. Um, and he was banging on the table because he, he said, it's a hundred and fifty thousand pound tractor. And he said, I know you've had it. No comment, no comment. And when I could speak, because the solicitor, he was a bent solicitor. And he'd put his foot on top of my foot and to tap and one or say yes or no. Um, so he couldn't nick me. So we came out of, then you go into like an alleyway, um, to the custody sergeant to let you out.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  And the, the, those two police and I'm standing on a solicitor. And it was lunchtime and I said to the guy. To this policeman, I looked at him, his face was going red where he couldn't nick me. I said, I suppose you're going for a Ploughman's now, are you? Just got so upset and he, he just walked out, left the other guy there. The other policeman was laughing, he was laughing. Once he'd gone, he was laughing, yeah, yeah.

• 43:24Matt Forde?

  So it's not prison that makes you give up crime, really. So what was it?

• 43:31Speaker 04

  Um.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  You get older. I've got grandchildren now, all together. Me and my partner, we've got nine grandchildren. Just not worth the risk now, not worth the risk. I'm, I'm, I'm not a millionaire or nothing, but I'm comfortable, you know, I've got a nice home. Two or three holidays a year, got my children, my grandkids. What, what more do I want? I don't, I don't need anything. So that's why I've given it up. Yeah, yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  Get tempted now and again, get things come through the line, but I don't do it.

• 44:02Matt Forde?

  So do people offer you jobs, they'll say, Lee, what about this?

• 44:04Speaker 04

  No, not, not jobs like that, because them jobs are finished, you know, there, there's no cash about anymore or anything like that. Um, just other things, I don't really want to say, but other things, yeah, yeah.

• 44:15Alice Levine?

  I'm so intrigued. Ballpark, ballpark, what kind of things?

• 44:20Speaker 04

  Ah, drug importation and stuff like that.

• 44:22Alice Levine?

  Just your drugs, it's your drug importations, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:26Alice Levine?

  So with that temptation, and obviously with the kind of money you were making before you went into prison.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:31Alice Levine?

  Which, you know, you don't get over immediately, you remember that life, you remember that lifestyle. How do you build your straight life up again?

• 44:44Speaker 04

  Hmm, good question. Um, you have to take it one day at a time, you know, um, this is why, when I came out, I moved from, from Kent to, to East Sussex. Because all my criminality was around Kent and all the people I knew or, or South London, you know, so taking myself out, it was a big part, it was a big step for me. Where I am now, I, I, I still, I've been there 12, 14 years and I still don't know anyone. I don't talk to anyone, I don't, I don't talk to the neighbours. I just keep myself to myself, you know, so I've taken that part out.

• 45:13Alice Levine?

  So that's quite lonely, isn't it? I mean, you've cut yourself off from.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  It is very lonely, yeah, in that respect, it is very lonely, yeah, yeah.

• 45:20Alice Levine?

  Because there was camaraderie in that world as well.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and not only just going on jobs, associating, going out with people like that, you know. But there you go. If, if you, if you're, if you're going to cut off from it, you've got to cut off them completely. You can't just sort of have one foot in there because you're going to get tempted. Yeah.

• 45:39Matt Forde?

  You'll go down in history, obviously as part of one of the most audacious heists this country has ever seen. There's the great Netflix documentary that you're on, we're covering it on this podcast. Do you think though, sometimes we're in danger of glamorising crimes like this?

• 45:56Speaker 04

  Um. My personal opinion, no, not really, not really. I I think um. Today, it's everybody's intrigued by by things like this. You know, they'll come in here today, even the taxi driver, he just couldn't stop talking about it. You know, he said, he said, I couldn't nick a box of matches, but I'm so fascinated by it. And um, no, I don't think so, no.

• 46:14Alice Levine?

  Because, you know, we watch films like Ocean's Eleven, which I'm sure people, you know, talk to you about and maybe even compare the Millennium Dome to. And we think, oh, it's, you know, it's fun. And you found it fun. I mean, you've said it was, it was kind of, it was exciting and it and it was um. It it was, it was something that kept your mind working and and you were good at it. But films like that make them look like, make these events look like an adventure. And actually, people do get hurt, don't they, sometimes? Either psychologically or physically.

• 46:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, people do. People do get hurt, obviously, of course. No, I'm not really into that. I I I. I, everything we did, e- even down to the day. Um, the police said in court that on the morning when they crashed through the side of the dome, there there was a load of schoolkids there and they rushed them all away. Bollocks, absolute crap. We went there so many times to check out the best time to go where it was so quiet. As soon as I opened those doors, there was no one in there. It was empty. Even when they crashed in, I think there was like four people walking around. So that's what we went in that time, so no one got hurt. Don't want to hurt anyone. Never did. Never did.

• 47:26Matt Forde?

  What would your advice be to anyone considering getting involved in the sorts of crimes that you did?

• 47:32Speaker 04

  I'd say you'd never get away with it because completely different life. Back then, we didn't even have mobile phones when I first started doing it, you know, um. But I I I strongly advise people not to get into it because.

• 47:45Matt Forde?

  Because you think effectively you will get caught?

• 47:48Speaker 04

  A hundred percent you're gonna get caught. You might not get, some people, you might not get caught on the day, but at some point you're gonna, you're gonna get caught because there's, everybody's got a phone, everybody, straight out we called you and, you know, it's just, yeah, you're gonna get caught. And there's a lot of people who just uh grass you basically today. It's not like it was back in the day, you know? Yeah. I've said enough glamorized it really, that prison was fine, all this. Some people don't, don't, don't take it like that and it's.

• 48:14Speaker 04

  I would advise them definitely not to do, to get into things like this. Or if you do, do it right.

• 48:19Alice Levine?

  Don't get caught.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  Don't get caught.

• 48:21Alice Levine?

  And I think I know the answer to this. Lee, any regrets?

• 48:26Speaker 04

  No. Only I didn't get the money.

• 48:29Alice Levine?

  How many times in your mind have you spent the money?

• 48:33Speaker 04

  Ah, at least a dozen. At least a dozen times, yeah. Um, at the time, my dad and his, these gangster guys from London were buying loads of villas in Spain, in Marbella. So I would have bought two or three of them and just rented them out. Um, and the rest I'd have just buried.

• 48:52Matt Forde?

  And hopefully found.

• 48:53Speaker 04

  Hopefully found. I definitely would have found it, it would have been a lot of money.

• 49:02Alice Levine?

  Thank you very much again to Lee Wenham. Matt, I think we immediately need to go and rent some metal detectors and go and find cans with thirty grand in.

• 49:09Matt Forde?

  Although it's probably not legal tender now. We could still move it on. We'll find a way, we've got connections.

• 49:13Alice Levine?

  I just wish we could do a whole other episode of the things Lee Wenham said off air.

• 49:18Matt Forde?

  We would all, we'd all be in a lot of trouble.

• 49:22Alice Levine?

  Okay, where are you taking me next time, Matt?

• 49:24Matt Forde?

  Well, for our next series, you can leave your balaclava at home.

• 49:27Alice Levine?

  But you know I just wear that for fashion purposes?

• 49:29Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and it really suits you, but you should also leave the crowbar at home. Because instead, we're going to be dusting off our cocktail shakers.

• 49:36Alice Levine?

  Okay, so less swat, more satin.

• 49:39Matt Forde?

  Yes, because the next series is a revisit of one of our favourites. We're retelling the story of how a dazzling socialite in nineteen thirties London, falling in love with a fascist, befriended Hitler himself, and became possibly the most dangerous woman in Britain.

• 49:54Alice Levine?

  Second most dangerous, am I right?

• 49:57Matt Forde?

  You are right. I'll go along with whatever you say, you petrify me. See you next time for Hitler's Angel.

• 50:11Alice Levine?

  From Wondery and Samuzda Audio, this is the fourth and final episode in our series, The Millennium Dome Heist. British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine.

• 50:20Matt Forde?

  And me, Matt Ford.

• 50:21Alice Levine?

  From Samuzda, our producer is Redzi Bernard. Our assistant producer is Louise Mason. Our senior producers are Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitzina. Our engineer is Jai Williams. Executive producers for Wondery are Theodora LaLudis, Estelle Doyle, and Marshall Louis.

• 50:56Speaker 02

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• 51:41Speaker 02

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  It's a world of wonderful words, big imaginations, and plenty of heart for the whole family. Listen to the Cat in the Hat Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all 20 episodes early and ad-free right now.