555. Burnham’s Cabinet Purge and the Rough Sleeping Pledge

What does Andy Burnham’s purge of Starmer loyalists from the top of government tell us about how the new British prime minister will govern the UK? Why did Ed Miliband drop his ten-year Energy Security and Net Zero project to become Foreign Secretary? Can Burnham end rough sleeping nationally, after struggling to do so in Manchester? Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all these questions and more. __________ Enjoy Rory and Alastair’s interview with Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan by searching ‘Leading’ on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. Go deeper into the world of The Rest Is Politics by signing up for our free newsletter HERE, featuring exclusive interviews, analysis and weekend reads from Alastair and Rory. Join The Rest Is Politics Plus. Start your free trial at therestispolitics.com to unlock exclusive bonus content – including Rory and Alastair’s miniseries – plus ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, exclusive newsletters, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. Stop overpaying for energy. Switch at fuseenergy.com/politics and get a free TRIP+ subscription. 🌏 Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app! Get an exclusive NordVPN deal + 4 months extra here ➼ nordvpn.com/restispolitics. It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30-day money-back guarantee! __________ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [email protected] __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith, Bruno Di Castri, Oli Ortega Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Producer: Evan Green General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Alastair Campbell?

  Andy Burnham yesterday became the seventh UK Prime Minister within just over a decade. Surely he has to last longer than his predecessors if Britain is to rediscover its reputation for mature, serious politics. To do so requires two things above all: an agenda that makes life better for people and a team to deliver it. The team is becoming clearer with a pretty brutal purge of Starmer supporters. And the appointment as Chancellor, not Shabana Mahmood, not Ed Miliband, as so many in the media said, but John Healy, whose resignation as Defence Secretary not long ago was a really big blow to Keir Starmer.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  And though it may yet lack detail, the agenda is becoming a little clearer as well. I for one, very pleased that his first big pledge was to end rough sleeping, and today we have the promise of a cut to fuel bills. But the truth is, he faces much the same challenges as Keir Starmer did. So will Manchesterism transfer to the whole of the UK? Will the purge backfire? Will he and John Healy get the economy going? And what is Andy Burnham's worldview?

• 1:14Rory Stewart?

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• 2:01Alastair Campbell?

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• 2:17Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 2:19Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 2:32Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creef, and of course the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN, and it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 2:55Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think you're not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this, or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 3:02Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustaspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustaspolitics, and the link is in the episode description.

• 3:46Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to The Restless Politics with me Rory Stewart.

• 3:50Alastair Campbell?

  And me Alastair Campbell. So Rory, we've got a new cabinet finally. Actually, they were saying on the media that it took a long time. Having been involved in quite a lot of these reshuffles and cabinet appointments, I thought it was done pretty quickly, especially given the brutality of the early stages. Were you surprised how many got the chop?

• 4:07Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, I was. You know, it's something that you're right in the heart of, and I was very much part of, but maybe not everybody follows. It's a very, very, very weird process. You were saying to me just before we came on that you would say to people, wait by your phone. And they could go on forever. I mean, I remember in 2015, having been a bit despairing about the reshuffles in 2012, 2014, where I waited by my phone and nothing had happened. 2015, I had left my phone on through the night, and I think it was like a sort of Sunday night that they started the reshuffle. And all I got was sort of telemarketing calls or texts from, I don't know, car companies. So I didn't sleep very

• 4:47Rory Stewart?

  well. Next night, same thing. So finally, I thought about, I guess, sort of four in the morning, okay, forget this, I'm obviously not getting something in the reshuffle. So I switched off the ring, I went to bed, woke up at about 7.30 to find these frantic texts from Ed the Wad, saying, where are you? Get in here now, the Prime Minister wants you in Downing Street. So I pulled on my clothes, I rushed off to the train station, picked up a cappuccino on the way, and then managed to pour the cappuccino all the way down my front on my way into Downing Street. So I entered Downing Street, sort of carrying a jacket like this, trying to conceal the amazing brown smudge of way down. Anyway, that's just to say that yesterday I was talking to a number of Labour friends who

• 5:29Rory Stewart?

  were sitting there, wondering what was happening, when it was going to happen, how painful it was going to be. And I'm afraid I kept being gloomy, saying, you know, this could take days, and I wouldn't count on it. And actually, to my delight, some of my friends did actually end up getting jobs and got them quicker than I thought.

• 5:45Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, no, it's a very difficult thing because it's like a sort of giant jigsaw puzzle. It's obvious with the speed with which you did it, that he'd worked out kind of who he wanted in the key jobs and how he was going to get them there. But so for example, it said that he offered Rachel Reeves a job other than Chancellor, and I've heard that was variously education or defence. I don't know if that's right, I wasn't there in the room. But the fact that he may have had her pencilled in for a job that wasn't Chancellor, and she said no, that means you then got other pieces you have to move around. This can go on like all day. And then, of course, he's now appointing the Ministers of State, junior ministers, and then you have the jigsaw gets even bigger.

• 6:29Alastair Campbell?

  And don't forget, he doesn't know a lot of these people, so he's having other people saying, no, for God's sake, don't put him there, don't put her there. And then he'll have the ministers themselves saying, no, I don't want to work with her, I don't want to work with them. And so it can get very, very complicated. But I think he gave a sense of, you know, we've talked about his ruthlessness in relation to defenestrating Keir Starmer, and it was pretty ruthless yesterday. You know, Rachel Reeves, Chancellor, gone. David Lammy, Deputy Prime Minister, has been a senior Labour figure for a long, long time, gone. Peter Kyle, Steve Reid, Liz Kendall, not just her gone, but her department gone. Science, technology, innovation is now getting put back into business. Darren Jones, Prime

• 7:11Alastair Campbell?

  Minister's right-hand man, gone. Attorney General, Richard Herrmann, Jo Stevens in Wales, Hilary Ben in Northern Ireland, James Murray in Health, Nick Thomas Simmonds. So it's a big purge, this.

• 7:22Rory Stewart?

  Help us understand what's going wrong with these people that lost their jobs. So Peter Kyle, to remind people we interviewed on Leading, was a very, very whip-smart, brilliant communicator, who I thought had a real vision for business and the economy. Hilary Ben is a, I mean, a great orator, very, very impressive Labour figure who deeply appeals certainly to old-fashioned, wet Tories like me. David Lammy, I think, has proved himself at lots of different levels and has been a big character in the Labour Party. And then there are people that maybe aren't household names, Nick Thomas Simmonds or Darren Jones, who were considered very, very able, I think. Technocratic, good administrators,

• 8:07Rory Stewart?

  Steve Reid maybe, James Murray. So some of these, you might have thought, are the future of the Labour Party. What's happened? Why this group gone?

• 8:15Alastair Campbell?

  Because Andy Burnham wants to create a new cabinet much more in his own image. Look, I agree. I think there are some of these people that you'd say have been and could easily have continued to be very good Cabinet Ministers. But it's more, I think, about the people that he wanted to bring in. And so in the end, you do have to cull to get in the people you want.

• 8:37Rory Stewart?

  Who would you miss of that little list I gave you? Who do you think were good and who you think's a pity's gone?

• 8:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I agree with you about David Lammy. I think David Lammy's been a, you know, a big figure for a long time. I think he's got an appeal that goes beyond a lot of politicians. I agree with you about Peter Kyle, I think he's a very effective minister. I, as you know, have said many times, I think that Nick Thomas Simmonds, to me, is one of those kind of very underrated politicians. It's all about the detail, it's all about the work. And I think he's done a good job in his sort of the grunt work, trying to change our relations with the European Union. Interesting, his replacement, Hamish Faulkner, at the Minister of State but attending Cabinet, I think, I mean, you know, I can say both that. I think Nick Thomas Simmonds was very good, and I can see why he's put Hamish Faulkner in there to do the same job. And then some of the others, I think it's just a question

• 9:27Alastair Campbell?

  of a little bit of politics, maybe. There's no doubt, he's doing everything at the moment. To communicate a sense of recalibration towards the north and to the regions of England. So I think we now have seven members of the Cabinet from the north west of England. We have four from Yorkshire. We have, I think, two from the North East. And we have four from London and the South East. Now, that is a big recalibration. There may be a backlash to that at some point, but people might start to think, hold on a minute, this Manchester thing has gone too far. You know, if you think about Angela Rayner's back in and Louise Hague back in. They are both Louise Hague Sheffield, Angela Rayner, Greater Manchester. They are both people who left the Cabinet

• 10:11Alastair Campbell?

  under something of a cloud, attached to sort of scandal. They've come back. And then the other one who's of course come back is Lucy Powell. I have to say Lucy Powell, I thought the my my advisor on education, Miss Fiona Miller. I wasn't sure how she'd take to Lucy Powell, but actually she's she's quite pleased because she thinks she thinks Lucy Powell is somebody who just is very dogged, very persistent, knows what she's about. And and thinks there is a bit of a problem in the Education Department with the kind of Gove Cummings people who are still in there, kind of, you know, stopping the sort of reforms that maybe Andy Burnham will want to do. I think the other thing that, you know, the biggest appointment, the biggest sacking in a way,

• 10:53Alastair Campbell?

  although, as I say, was that she was offered a different job, is Rachel Reeves and John Healy coming in. And that's a that's a really interesting appointment.

• 11:00Rory Stewart?

  That this is his chance for the exchequer. So again, for international listeners, John Healy is now coming in to to the second biggest job in government and he's going to be running all the finances at a critical time when British growth has been slightly struggling. Although there's been some slightly more positive data recently. Okay, back over to you, Rachel Reeves, John Healy.

• 11:16Alastair Campbell?

  And again, John Healy, a Northern MP, York, South Yorkshire, as is Yvette Cooper, who's staying in the Cabinet as Health Secretary. And I think what's interesting, and I think when you and I were talking about the runners and riders, and we should just say here, Rory, how many times have I said, when you're reading about speculation about Cabinet reshuffles, most of the journalists haven't got a clue what they're talking about. And I'm afraid even the Financial Times, which recently has been saying as a fact, Shabana Mahmood will be the Chancellor. And I get the feeling that Andy Burnham has had this in mind for some time about John Healy. And I think there's two reasons. I think the first is John Healy's been around for a very long time. And he worked in the Treasury as a Minister under Gordon Brown.

• 12:01Alastair Campbell?

  John Healy, I think, shares a lot of Andy Burnham's views about the Treasury. And I've been rereading the Andy Burnham, Steve Rotherham book, Head North. And there's a lot in there about how the real problem in this country is the way the Treasury operates. So he's sending somebody in to remodel the Treasury and that's a big, big job.

• 12:22Rory Stewart?

  Hopefully people will have a chance who aren't really focused on John Healy to catch up on the interview that he did with us on leading, which is a really good route into our new Chancellor. So this was, of course, the Defence Secretary and a really respected Defence Secretary who had a tough axe to follow. You know, people like Ben Wallace have been big figures and Healy came in and really seemed to win the confidence of people. And not just won the confidence of people. I mean, he was very good at signalling intent on Russia, very good at working the NATO system, very good at working with the service chiefs, but ultimately very principled. He resigned over the cuts to defence. So we can expect significant increase. I mean, tens of billions of pounds increased, I guess, in defence spending,

• 13:05Rory Stewart?

  which will have effects on other parts of the budget. But he's also somebody who you described as the time as a really, well, I guess we get a sense of a real veteran, safe pair of hands. I mean, in this Cabinet setup, you've got three very kind of up and coming, bright young things from the 2024 intake coming in. Kanishka Narayan coming in at AI. Miase Fanbula coming in at the Environment. And as you say, Hamish Faulkner now attending the Cabinet as Minister of State in the Nick Thomas Simmons thing. But Healy represents the other end of things. He represents somebody who, I guess, is reassuring and who

• 13:44Rory Stewart?

  certainly people like me who think that we need tighter fiscal policy, tougher action on welfare and probably a more business friendly environment will be a little bit reassured because he doesn't feel like somebody from the sort of, yeah, I don't know where you'd position him in the party, but certainly he he feels like a kind of safe pair of hands and somebody who'd be fiscally responsible. Over to you.

• 14:06Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I mean, I always got got on well with John Healy back in the day, although he was always defined in the Blair Brown battles as a Brownite. And, you know, and he was to some extent. But I'd say John is a post factional. I don't think he likes the factionism. I'm not sure he liked it back then. No, there will, and there will be people feeling, I mean, I thought one of the, well, there've been two post resignation slash sacking comments that are worth noting. The first is Steve Reid. Steve Reid was doing communities and, and, you know, as you said earlier, pretty effective. London, very close to Morgan McSweeney when Morgan McSweeney was Keir Starmer's Chief of Staff. And he said in his resignation letter to Andy Burnham,

• 14:49Alastair Campbell?

  I hope those who did not show loyalty to Keir will now show it to you. And I think that was a bit of a dig, well, pretty obvious dig. So you could make the case, so for example, John Healy, who's now the Chancellor. We said at the time, we did an emergency podcast when he resigned, and I think we said there, this feels pretty fatal now. This was a really big blow. Because John wasn't coming, you didn't have a sense of John sitting there trying to undermine Keir Starmer. You had a sense of a guy trying to do the job, doing it well. So that was a big blow. So you've got him now Chancellor. Ed Miliband, we know, was the first pretty much to go to Keir Starmer face to face and say, this isn't working, you've got to go. We also know that Shabana Mahmood said the same thing.

• 15:34Alastair Campbell?

  Now, those three are now in the top two, the three top jobs.

• 15:37Rory Stewart?

  Yes, Ed Miliband, who was the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, has now become Foreign Secretary. And that's been quite interesting because in fact, there was a lot of talk about his brother, David Miliband, the former Foreign Secretary.

• 15:49Alastair Campbell?

  That that was always nonsense.

• 15:51Rory Stewart?

  Always nonsense, okay. But but anyway, a lot of journalists were excited about the idea that Dave Miliband would come back to do that job, instead of which Ed Miliband's got it. Now, interestingly, that was something that I was trying to hint out with you. So I'm afraid I've not been very polite about my view that I think Ed Miliband had become a little bit too rigid and a little bit too dug into his particular vision of energy climate change. And so I said to you, do you think he could be moved into one of the great offices of state? And what I meant by that was Foreign Secretary. And I was slightly horrified that you came back and said, well, I suppose Chancellor is a possibility. Because I, nothing would have, nothing would have terrified me more than Ed Miliband heading off to be Chancellor. Foreign Secretary, I think, is the right thing. But if, and I'd be interested in why Andy Burnham didn't.

• 16:35Rory Stewart?

  I mean, obviously, the reason I'd be doing it is that I'd want Ed Miliband out of Energy and Climate Change because I'd want to be able to do some things that Ed Miliband would oppose in terms of British energy. I'd want to build more data centres. In my case, I'd probably want to start drilling again in the North Sea. And I might want to show a bit of flexibility about some of his rigid targets. But you don't want him as an enemy, so you make him Foreign Secretary. So he can't do any harm. Now, that that again, might annoy people in the Foreign Office because it implies that you're using the Foreign Secretary position as a way of managing party politics. But my sense is that that's why I would have done it. I'm not quite sure whether that's your your understanding of why Andy Burnham's done it.

• 17:15Alastair Campbell?

  First of all, when I was on, flying back from Iceland yesterday, and we should tell people that our leading interview next week is with the Prime Minister of Iceland about their upcoming EU referendum. And it's really good. It's one of my favourites thus far. But I was sitting on the plane next to a guy who was American but living in Britain. And he was a very elderly gentleman. And I thought it was going to be a bit Trumpy or what have you. And he was saying to me, he said to me, why are so few politicians really fighting on the climate crisis? And so I remain absolutely of the view that we have to take a leadership role on climate. So I hope that is not part of the reasoning. I was pleased that Ed Miliband mentioned relations with the European Union

• 18:00Alastair Campbell?

  in his very, very first statement as a as a priority for how I saw the job. I have a more considered view about this, which is actually that Andy Burnham, we're seeing this in everything he says. I mean, so yesterday, he spoke to Trump, he spoke to Macron, he spoke to Zelensky, he spoke to von der Leyen, he spoke to others. They all kind of were putting out nice welcoming words, as always is the case. But I think he does want to be less of a foreign policy Prime Minister than Keir Starmer was. Now, he may find that impossible. He'll certainly find it difficult. So I think the thinking may be actually, you know, Ed Miliband has been leader, he's a pretty big figure. And I think that is more the reason why he's put him there. That, that being said, he may want to make changes on, on energy and the net zero policy.

• 18:45Rory Stewart?

  He couldn't do that when Ed Miliband was there, right? I'm actually surprised that Miliband took the job. You don't think it was possible, Fred, that he might have just dug his heels in and said, no, I've got this dream that I want to push ahead with energy and climate, and I'm not going to take the Foreign Secretary job?

• 18:58Alastair Campbell?

  I think he's probably a little bit like-

• 18:59Rory Stewart?

  He's put 10 years into it, hasn't he?

• 19:00Alastair Campbell?

  He has, yeah.

• 19:01Rory Stewart?

  He's put 10 years into that, yeah.

• 19:03Alastair Campbell?

  But I think the other thing that Foreign Secretary gives you, particularly if you are a pretty big beast as he is, you have the ability to, to engage in debates where you actually have knowledge. I think he'd be worried, he might be worried. But let me tell you, I think it's interesting who Andy Burnham has replaced him with, which is Miata Fambule. Now, she's a really interesting, really interesting woman. So she was born in the late 1979, I think, 1980, Liberia. Her father was a Foreign Minister in Liberia. Her mother, I think, was from Sierra Leone. And they fled Liberia during the Liberian Civil War in the mid 80s. Came to England, they came as asylum seekers.

• 19:46Alastair Campbell?

  I think quite a well-to-do family. I think we now, we're back with a privately educated Cabinet Minister. She did PPE Oxford, as so many politicians do. Then she got a PhD in Economic Development at the LSE. But she's got a lot of experience. One of her colleagues, who I know quite well, said that Miata is the cleverest person in the, in the PLP. She worked in the Cabinet Office on cities policy, she worked at the IPPR. She was Chief Executive of the New Economics Foundation. I've checked out her views on the climate crisis, Rory. She's, she's what I would define as passionate and sound, okay? So that, let's just see where that goes. But, and she is one of, you said that, you know, she, she was literally just elected in 2024.

• 20:31Alastair Campbell?

  So she's, she's had, I think this is her third job. So she, she is absolutely somebody as a a bit of a rising star. She's also, again, back to this big point. And, and it's why I think this, this book, Head North, I mean, people who want to know about Burnham, they've got to read this book. Because it really does give you a sense of what he's about. And it's so interesting, how so much of the stuff he writes about in here is the stuff that you're hearing him say at the moment. Rewiring Britain, regions and devolution. And, and so, and, and also this thing about the green, the Treasury Green Book. He's obsessed with this idea that the Treasury assessment of whether something's worth backing depends upon their assessment of whether it might work. Well, it's obviously going to work better in places that are already very affluent.

• 21:16Alastair Campbell?

  So it works against deprived areas. And that's what he's going to tell John Ealy he's got to change.

• 21:20Rory Stewart?

  So another really interesting appointment is that a new position's been created at the Cabinet level for an AI Minister. And he's given it to a man called Kanishka Narayan, who was the junior minister for AI previously in Liz Kendall's department. Now, Kanishka is, if you're looking for the new Labour Party and the brightest and the best, is a really remarkable person. I first came across him more than 10 years ago, when he was one of the most brilliant civil servants. I guess he's only in his early twenties in DEFRA. He took over all our attempts to do open data. He was able to generate

• 22:00Rory Stewart?

  briefings and documents in sort of six, seven hours that took other people weeks to do.

• 22:06Alastair Campbell?

  And this was before, this was before ChatGPT?

• 22:09Rory Stewart?

  This was before ChatGPT. He was himself an entire large language model. So he's only just been elected to Parliament, came in, I think he's the first minority Asian candidate in the Vale of Glamorgan.

• 22:21Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 22:22Rory Stewart?

  So quite a sort of historic win. He came from Bihar in India, which is not a wealthy part of India when he was 12. He's got, as I say, a, a brain like a large frontier model. And he's become a minister now at the age of 36. So I'm really interested in that because there was a little group of very, very talented people who came in in 2024. Of whom your and my friend Georgia Gould would be an example, Hamish Faulkner, who's now joining the Cabinet.

• 22:47Rory Stewart?

  Al Khan's, of course, in that group, Torsten Bell, Josh McAllister, Mike Tapp, Lucy Rigby. And one of the things that I was watching here, and with you watching, is how much Andy Burnham was going to try to reach out to that new, very talented part of the Labour Party that just came in two years ago. So I'm very pleased to see three of them now attending Cabinet.

• 23:06Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and, and, and they are, of course, you know, the, the lower, the the ministerial appointments will also give us an indication of that because there is a sense in which the Cabinet, I'll come back to Narayan in a minute, but there is a sense in which the Cabinet has a slightly retro feel to it in some, to some, you know, the fact Angela Rayner back. Now, I love Angela Rayner, and I know you do from our, not least from our leading interview, which is still, you know, right up there in our rankings. But Lucy Powell, Lisa Nandi, staying on at Culture. You've got Chris Bryant to Northern Ireland. Angela Eagle, I didn't see that one coming. Angela Eagle from Merseyside, who's gone in at DEFRA.

• 23:49Alastair Campbell?

  So there is that sense. But then, as you say, this sense also of this new generation coming in. The thing, the thing about Narayan, Rory, I mentioned that Mathieu went to a, an independent school. So did he, but on a scholarship, he actually was living, I think was raised in kind of, they weren't a rich family, as you say. You know, he grew up in a one-bedroom flat in Cardiff. He then went to a local high school, but then he got a scholarship to Eton College. So we have, we have an Etonian, we have an Etonian there. But I think you were worried, I know you were worried because you said it both to me and you said it briefly on the podcast. You were worried that you felt Andy Burnham didn't get AI, didn't really understand why it was so significant.

• 24:35Alastair Campbell?

  This suggests that he does.

• 24:37Rory Stewart?

  And that also he's prepared to appoint real specialists to roles. I mean, one of the things that was so distinctive about Cameron is that he didn't really often attempt to match people's knowledge and expertise to their roles. So he would bring in, you know, Philip Hammond, who was very bright, but he was made Defence Secretary without having much defence background, Foreign Secretary without doing much foreign affairs before he got the job. Michael Fallon, you could make the same case on defence. But in this case, when he was looking for an AI Minister, he didn't think this is a way of putting in a Labour member in order to manage the party. He really thought, who is the person in my bench who knows more about AI than anyone on earth?

• 25:19Rory Stewart?

  And I pride myself knowing a little bit about AI, but I definitely defer to Kanishka. If I was looking for a real Starmer, I mean, that's almost like an American appointment. That's really bringing in one of the the brightest people in the country to do that.

• 25:32Alastair Campbell?

  There's one new Cabinet appointment which goes against that theory. Because here's a, a little minor piece of history, which is making big waves in the legal press this morning, a lawyer friend of mine tells me. Which is that Alex Norris, elected in 2017, also, by the way, born in Manchester, but a not EMP, went to university there. But he's the first non-lawyer, I think, to be appointed to Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for, for Justice.

• 26:03Rory Stewart?

  Michael Gove had that job.

• 26:04Alastair Campbell?

  You're right. So in which case the legal press should bloody calm down.

• 26:09Rory Stewart?

  I think the first non-lawyer to get the job was Chris Grayling, who became Lord Chancellor in, in 2012.

• 26:16Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, was he not a lawyer?

• 26:18Rory Stewart?

  Not a lawyer either, no.

• 26:19Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, I'm going to demand a rebuttal in the, I can't remember which legal paper it was that sent me. The other thing, and he's also, they're a husband and wife MP team. He's married to Emma Foodie, who is the MP for Cramlington and and Killingworth. So they're going to have a, you know, great time together.

• 26:35Rory Stewart?

  Now, he's in charge of prisons. And one of the sad things is that we lost Lord Thompson, who resigned very early on in the process, which is a great pity, particularly since we keep saying that one of the big problems in prisons is the prisons ministers never stay long. James Thompson made a, you know, had a really good tenure and will point out that he was in there longer than me. I think he would have done the full two years, but it's still not very long, given that what we were hoping to do was really. Here's another thing that I want Andy Burnham to do that he hasn't done, which is to commit that people are not going to be reshuffled. I want

• 27:16Rory Stewart?

  people to feel they're in their job for a minimum of two years unless there is some extraordinary scandal. That there's a basic assumption that you're going to get the job for at least two years and you can plan accordingly. Would you support me on that?

• 27:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. And I, I suspect most Prime Ministers will be with you on that, but I'm afraid that politics, particularly in the modern age. You know, it's like J D Vance, when he said that, you know, Watergate today would be a kind of one day wonder. In America, that may be the case. But if you think, and I think if you go back to Angela Rayner's stamp duty or Louise Hague, which was something to do with insurance on a phone that she'd lost, most American politics looked at us at that one. What is this about? Even Peter Mandelson, the Americans are saying, you know, why is he resigning over this? It's like, so I, but we do have, I think, and I think it's good, by the way, we have different values to the Americans, which is just sort of awful.

• 28:12Alastair Campbell?

  Shout out here for our interview with regime change authors Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan on Leading Now. But I think that, you know, there will be, you just know there will be, there will be scandals. And the, and the thing is about the way our media operates as well is that these new names now that have come in, people will be, people will be looking to dig in and find stuff and what have you. So I, but, but look, nobody wants to, to make change. I think the other question that is going to be interesting, we saw a little bit, I mentioned Steve Reid's letter, but we've also seen this morning, Darren Jones, who was the Prime Minister's first secretary prior to that chief secretary, who did a post last night saying, you know, thank you and good night, see you in September,

• 28:56Alastair Campbell?

  with a pint of beer in his hand. And yet was first out of the traps tweeting this morning, essentially saying, very pleased that Andy Burnham is going to be cutting VAT on fuel bills. However, where he says the money is coming from, scrapping this digital ID thing, it wasn't fully funded. Now, that felt, that was a very deliberate move, basically to say, so that's him and Steve Reid and now him, basically saying, we're not just going to sit back and take this, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna be sniping from the sidelines. So whether it be coalesces around those sorts of people becomes oppositional, don't underestimate though, Andy Burnham still has the big majority that Keir Starmer won for him two years ago.

• 29:35Rory Stewart?

  Well, let's take a quick break and then after the break, let's come back from the personalities into some of the policies.

• 29:41Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 29:41Rory Stewart?

  And what we're beginning to sense in terms of where Andy Burnham might take the country.

• 29:46Alastair Campbell?

  Great. See you there.

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• 31:40Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome back to the Rest is Politics, me, Alastair Campbell.

• 31:42Rory Stewart?

  And with me Rory Stewart.

• 31:44Alastair Campbell?

  Rory, I was very, very, very, very happy that the one big policy announcement that Andy Burnham made on the steps of Downing Street was, he said, I'm going to go through that door and the first instruction I'm going to give is that we end rough sleeping. Now, last, literally like three, four days before, Izzy from our newsletter and I, we went out with an outreach team from St. Mungo's charity. And I kept saying, I said to them, I said, listen, you guys, there's a real, there's a real opportunity with Andy Burnham because when he was Mayor of Manchester, he made a big, big thing about rough sleeping. And this is going to be a, you know, so you've really got to be making your case and, you know, and I can have a word, let's, you know, let's really put a campaign together. We'd

• 32:28Alastair Campbell?

  done pretty much precisely nothing by way of doing that. And then actually comes and says this. And I think it was, I think it also shows this consistency in him. There is a lot of the things he's been talking about in recent days, he's been talking about them for a long time.

• 32:45Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. Well, let's, let's just look at that one. So I always thought it was something that was impressive because when I was running to be Mayor of London, I said, I will get rid of rough sleeping. I think it's completely horrible, right? We are, you know, we've got a lot of problems in the country, but we're a very wealthy country. And there are people living in these terrible conditions on the streets. Furthermore, during COVID, we pretty much worked out how to get people off the streets and look after them. But the biggest argument I used against Sidikun, who effectively kept saying, oh, it's all too difficult and it can't be done, is no, that's not true. Andy Burnham has basically done it. Now, there's a bit of quibbling around the edges, around the numbers, but essentially Andy Burnham in Manchester really got to grips with the situation, proved it

• 33:29Rory Stewart?

  could be done. And my view was, which I think Burnham has too, which is if you can do it in Manchester, you can do it in London.

• 33:36Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. I mean, I think Manchester is an interesting story, is, is that he came in and said he was going to do it. And I agree with you, by the way, I think it's an absolute blow. And, and we shouldn't just imagine this is just in our big cities either, by the way, we've got rough sleeping right around the country. And he brought in this thing called the Bed Every Night Initiative. And he got the numbers down to 89, which is, you know, that was a good, very good reduction. But then, what happened, part, part of the problem that then saw the figures going up again, was that there were people living, sleeping rough outside Manchester, who thought, oh, I'll go to Manchester. So the, the kind of, the gross numbers went up and that eventually meant the net numbers went, went up as well. And then the other thing that happened, housing alliances were

• 34:21Alastair Campbell?

  frozen, lots of evictions of asylum seekers became a, a really big problem. So I think he's now, but what he's trying to say is, we've tried it locally, now let's try and do it nationally. And I've got to say, Rory, when Izzy and I were out the other night, it is just, they, they were everywhere, you know, it's, you could find them everywhere. We were walking through this little park, we were talking to one guy who'd been, you know, sleeping rough for years and years and years. He'd lost five toes through frostbite on one foot and one toe on the other. He hated hospitals, didn't particularly want to live inside, but he obviously needed help and support. And then we're walking past him, we see this little white, it wasn't even a blanket, it was a guy sleeping inside

• 35:06Alastair Campbell?

  a duvet cover, just the cover. And we kind of nudged him and he was an Afghan asylum seeker, 22. He'd lost, he had no papers, no phone, absolutely nothing. Even though it was the heatwave, he was freezing, it was really cold after a few hours just sleeping on the ground. And it was just so moving to what this guy called Marco Costa from the charity, he just took so much time. Eventually got an, the guy's English wasn't good, he got an, he got a Pachto interpreter on the phone at whatever time in the morning it was. Eventually got his story out of him, they got him to a, to a shelter. Shout out for Get Taxis, by the way. Black cabbies don't have a great ration, Get Taxis, their

• 35:48Alastair Campbell?

  drivers are trained in safeguarding vulnerable people. And it was a get driver that took this guy to one of the shelters to be, to be assessed. And then of course, you're on to the next one. The other thing that was really quite shocking, again, you don't think of these things when you're not living that life, was that you think, well, at least when it's warm, they've got somewhere, you know, it's not like freezing. But there were two problems. One is they need more water and they don't have water. And the second is we saw one, the only woman we came across, her face was blistered through sunburn, absolutely sort of, you know, blistered because they don't have sun cream. And so, big shout out to St. Mungo's, but also the other great housing charities around the place. But I,

• 36:30Alastair Campbell?

  I thought it was, it was interesting, powerful and symbolic that on the morning he became Prime Minister, he went to work with a housing charity and then later in the day announced, we're going to try and do this.

• 36:41Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. We, we should do more on this. I, I also think it's worth being thoughtful about the statistics. I remember going to one of the outer London boroughs, which was reporting that they had only six homeless people. And I spent the night in a church hall and there were, I reckon, 32 homeless people sleeping with me in that hall.

• 37:08Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm.

• 37:09Rory Stewart?

  So this is, and, and that's a church hall where they are allowed to come in, I think at about 11 at night, and everybody has to be out by about 6:30 in the morning. The whole place has to be cleared. So we were all cleaning up in the morning. And it was very interesting, this, the disconnect between the officials saying, there are six homeless people and my sitting there thinking, well, I'm surrounded by nearly 30 just in this building alone.

• 37:35Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Rory Stewart?

  But it can be done. I mean, it can be done. And I think what Andy did in, in Manchester was really inspiring. But also, as I say, what happened during COVID? I mean, fundamentally, it can be done. There's going to be something interesting though, that you've also pointed to with your story about the Afghan, which is, as Shivana Mahmoud continues being tough on asylum seekers, what happens to asylum seekers who don't have housing and what?

• 38:05Rory Stewart?

  Are people who think we should be tough on asylum seekers going to think if we start providing shelter for asylum seekers?

• 38:11Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm, yeah. Anyway, if you want a success story as well, the St Mungos have got these huge murals that have been, the one that we went to see was in Bethnal Green. And it had this thing, Lee was here in these giant letters, surrounded by pictures that told the story of his life. And we'll tell the story in this weekend's newsletter because we talked, he was there to help them launch this new mural. It's a beautiful piece of work. So we talked to him at this mural, which his story had inspired. And his story was borderline personality disorder, went to live in America, went to live in Canada, then moved to America, got married. Mental health, really, really struggling, couldn't afford to get mental health care

• 38:52Alastair Campbell?

  in America, came back to Britain and found actually he couldn't get it here either. Tragedy, bad scandal, need to do more on mental health. And ended up being picked up on the streets, rough sleeping by St Mungos. And they've helped him get his life back on track. He's now written a play about the whole thing. So he's a wonderful guy to talk to and great stories. If you want to read Lee's story, get the newsletter and you sign up to therestispolitics.com in the description to the episode. Which are the policy areas do you want to talk about?

• 39:27Rory Stewart?

  Well, the next, the next big announcement that he's made is that he's going to cut VAT on energy bills. This is an interesting one because it was one of these things that the Brexiteers had always campaigned for because under EU rules, there's limits on what you can do on reducing VAT on energy bills. And one of the surprises that the Brexiteers kept coming up against is having claimed this is one of the great benefits of leaving the European Union, they never actually did it. Andy Burnham's now done it. And, and it relates to a couple of things. I mean, firstly, it's, it's going to cost a few hundred million. And as you say, interesting, Darren Jones has pointed out that the scrapping the ID cards isn't actually saving any money because they hadn't really funded the ID cards in the first place. But it's not a huge amount of money.

• 40:12Rory Stewart?

  I mean, like, listen, I gave you 400, 500 million pounds, a lot of money. But in terms of the entire government budget, that's not the kind of stuff that people are going to be looking at when they're trying to work out whether Andy Burnham is fiscally responsible. It'll probably save, I guess, about 40 pounds on the average bill. But it does relate to the interview we did on leading with the EU Commissioner, Dan Jorgensen, who points out that one of the things getting in the way of clean energy is the taxes. And we're trying to drive people towards using, relying on electricity rather than other forms of energy. And reducing the electricity bills is a sensible step in the right direction. So I think that's great.

• 40:56Rory Stewart?

  There's a lot of questions around Number 10 North and, you know, this location in Manchester. Couple of things on that. One is just a logistics point. I mean, Tim Shipman and The Spectator wrote a long article speculating about whether Andy was going to be travelling up and down by helicopter or train and how people were going to get up to Manchester to do stuff, which, which made it sound as though he sort of had an idea that people were going to be spending a lot of time in Manchester, in Number 10 Manchester, running this thing. But the other thing I was thinking about is how that's going to work with the rest of England. Because in Cumbria, certainly, our experience of being run from Manchester was not positive.

• 41:39Rory Stewart?

  We got very, very angry back in the day with government office, North West, and we felt Manchester was a very long way from understanding Cumbria and our concerns. So I suppose this is a, a kind of challenge to Andy Burnham, and maybe this is a route back into his book, to really follow through with proper, proper devolution. And I think proper devolution is putting power down at the level of Cumbria, 500,000 people. Interestingly, we just did this interview, as you said, with the Prime Minister of Iceland, about the size of Iceland. And that's really what makes sense. Cumbria makes sense. Cumbria is a very, very unusual place, couldn't be less like Manchester. It's not urban, it's extremely remote rural stuff.

• 42:21Rory Stewart?

  So that's, it would be a pity if devolution ended up with power being centred in places like Manchester rather than actually being driven down to the ground. I'm not talking down to the micro level of kind of Eden District Council with 45,000 people, but at least half a million people.

• 42:39Alastair Campbell?

  The other really, one of the many interesting points that I got from this reading Head North was his criticism of Scottish devolution to the extent that the Scottish government has centralised a lot of Scottish power. In other words, you have the Scottish Parliament, then suddenly you have one police force in Scotland, which, you know, we can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is more, if you like, more centralisation. And so, and I think that the big surprise for me in the, in the reshuffle, in the new appointments, is there wasn't, I thought there'd be somebody specific on this Number 10 North and devolution.

• 43:22Alastair Campbell?

  Now, it feels to me it's going to be a bit of Louise Hague, who's the first Secretary of State and right-hand person in the Cabinet Office. It's probably going to be a bit of Angela Rayner housing local government communities. It'll obviously be Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, et cetera. But I think that it's, I thought that would, that would have been signalled much more because it's so clear to me that if there is a big idea coming out of Andy Burnham, it is about devolution of power. It is about really trying to get more power out into towns, cities, rural communities, the regions.

• 44:01Alastair Campbell?

  And in fact, the, the, the end of his book, he and Steve Rotherham have got this kind of this 10-point, they say, you know, these are the things we need to do. Written constitution.

• 44:14Rory Stewart?

  Well, give, give us, give us the 10, yeah.

• 44:17Alastair Campbell?

  I'll give you the 10 and then you can tell me what you think is so. Right, written constitution, written constitution. And he argues passionately why that's a good thing. And I think we support that. But bloody hell, how complicated would it, would that be to, although back to Iceland, they almost did this through a, through a citizens' assembly type thing. Number two, basic law.

• 44:37Rory Stewart?

  This is my, this is my, my job, my, my job application. If you'd like someone to chair a commission on trying to bring together a constitution, I'm standing by, dear new Prime Minister.

• 44:46Alastair Campbell?

  God, you just never give up, do you? You have that period, you just.

• 44:49Rory Stewart?

  Never go out, you've got to get it, will I? I'd definitely for a job.

• 44:53Alastair Campbell?

  Co-do it. We could have a motto, disagree agreeably as we write a new constitution.

• 44:58Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, exactly, we could chair the commission on the new constitution, yeah, lovely.

• 45:01Alastair Campbell?

  Number two, basic law. There's a lot of Germany in this book and the relationship between the federal centre of government in Berlin and the lender. So all part of the same thing. Number three, not heard about much of this yet, reform of the voting system. PR. Number four.

• 45:18Rory Stewart?

  And he, he seems to be serious about that because in a recent interview, he said that his father, who has dementia and who doesn't realise that he's become Prime Minister, was the man that always tried to convince Andy of the merits of proportional representation.

• 45:32Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Rory Stewart?

  And he did say in one of the interviews, he wishes his father was able to know that he had convinced him and that he would be pushing ahead with PR. So let's hope he's serious about that. And that would be a huge change because it's very difficult for the, for the turkeys to vote for Christmas.

• 45:47Alastair Campbell?

  Well, and, and on which point, let's see, at the moment, the MPs seem to be welcoming Andy Burnham and liking a lot of the things he's saying and doing. On that one, I think there could be more of a fight. But then the next one, he's appointed Annalise Midgley as chief whip. Number four, removal of the whip in Parliament. Number five, a Senate, get rid of the House of Lords, hear, hear to that, a Senate of the nations and regions, elected or appointed through list system by proportional representation. I quite like that. Six, full devolution, we've talked about that. Seven, equal paths in education. This is about much, much more focus on technical education. And he's done some of that in, in, in Manchester. Grenfell law, this is about housing.

• 46:32Alastair Campbell?

  The Hillsborough law, well, that's now been enacted. And again, back to this point about you just keep going on stuff. The extent to which both Andy Rotherham and Steve Rotherham in Liverpool, Merseyside, the extent to which their careers and their politics and their passions are driven by that one incident is absolutely extraordinary. And then number 10, net zero to re-industrialise the North. So that's about, you know, and by the way, you mentioned Dan Jorgensen, he sent me a paper this week, I've given up trying to get you back from the dark side, Rory, but he sent me a paper basically showing just how much cheaper it currently was to produce renewables and fossil fuels. I'll send it to you, you can have a read. Anyway, that is a huge agenda.

• 47:13Rory Stewart?

  An amazing agenda and a really interesting agenda. And one of the weird things I feel with Andy Burnham is although he and I couldn't come from more different backgrounds, or even our approach to policy very different, he became a, a special advisor under Testa Jal, I think as early as 94, and didn't get into Parliament till 2002. So he was very much part of the labour machine as a special advisor from a very long time. And then he's a real veteran politician in some ways. But he ended up like me, and I feel this reading the book, feeling so much, whenever he returned back to the constituency, a huge relief getting out of Westminster. It's just, he talks about the same thing I felt, getting off a train, breathing the air, just, and just how uncomfortable he felt with the whipping system, with the centralisation

• 47:57Rory Stewart?

  of power and how much he believes that the, the genius of Britain is local.

• 48:04Rory Stewart?

  No, this is of course, as usual, a chance for me to plug Middleland. And, but I'm interested in this because Middleland is about my trying to make a sort of Andy Burnham style argument, that this, the book just coming out in paperback, live shows coming 13th, 14th September.

• 48:19Alastair Campbell?

  For God's sake, that's three plugs in one episode. I mean, honestly.

• 48:22Rory Stewart?

  But the, the reason, the reason I think I'm intrigued by this is that my gut instinct as a member of Parliament, which is what Middleland's all about, is that the things that worked best in Britain were at the more, more local level, that democracy worked better, that accountability worked better. I mean, I keep coming back to this obsession with the idea that a French mayor can kind of get poked in the chest when he goes to local Michel by somebody to actually say, why aren't you sorting this out? And the sense that you want to be responsible for things you can fix. So many of my constituents, you know, were interested in planning, they were interested in, you know, residents' parking, they were interested in local schools.

• 49:04Rory Stewart?

  And these are things which I, as a member of Parliament, didn't have power over. So there was a very weird thing of us putting out leaflets saying we were going to fix all these things when we didn't actually have a budget power to do it. People had the budget power to do it with the local councillors and nobody knew their names and the turnout in the local elections were very small.

• 49:23Rory Stewart?

  Fixing that stuff and a sort of sense, I think, that he's drawing on the best of France and Germany here, which may be a little bit unfashionable, but definitely reflects also his idea on industrial policy, which is that industrial policy is best done for Manchester from Manchester, or best done for Cumbria from Cumbria, because it's only at the local level, you really understand the texture of the type of industries you've got, the type of skills you've got, the type of vocational skills that you need to match the industries that exist in this place. It's very place-based, isn't it?

• 49:56Alastair Campbell?

  The other thing I think we should maybe just close off on is the, we said at the top, the worldview. And if you think about, I mean, I can remember Tony Blair's first day as Prime Minister, there's an awful lot to do. But I got the sense yesterday, Andy Burnham was doing a lot. He makes, he does it in the morning, he goes and he does, he goes to see the King, he does a little speech outside Number 10, he goes in, he knows the buildings, there's no need for that. But then he does the old nuclear codes thing, and then, then he's appointed the Cabinet. He's meanwhile taking all these phone calls. So he had this phone call with Trump. And if you remember when Andy was first sort of being talked of as leader, I think my, you know, it was obviously he was going to

• 50:35Alastair Campbell?

  become leader, and Trump's reaction was, oh, yeah, he's a mayor of some town. Well, Andy clearly remembered that because he said, I really hope to show you the delights of my city, Manchester, because we're going to hold the G20 there when we host it next year. But the American relationship is going to be important. I hope he doesn't do the kind of sycophant route. I hope he doesn't do the kowtow route. I hope that we're tough. I think I, I'll be fascinated by, to watch both Hexeth and Wes Streeting, who's the Defence Secretary, how that goes down. Because Wes Streeting, I don't think will take any

• 51:15Alastair Campbell?

  of the bullshit. And then, of course, we've got Rubio and Ed Miliband. Now, we are, it's always been for a long time, the junior partner therein. But I think, I hope we don't take any of the nonsense, and I hope we call out some of the, some of the nonsense. I am slightly worried about the drill, baby drill, North Sea thing, because I think this North Sea thing is a bit of a nonsense. As Dan Jurgensen said, if we're really going for energy in the North Sea, it's about investing in wind power there. Of course, there is a lot, a lot of wind we could, we can do. And, and as you said, as I think you acknowledge now, it is about price and it is about taxes, as much as all this thing about where we're getting energy from.

• 51:54Rory Stewart?

  Oh, well, no, I don't think I fully acknowledge.

• 51:56Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, well, let's, let's, let's.

• 51:57Rory Stewart?

  But we don't want to get dragged into the North Sea. But let's finish, though, with, with a sort of summary on Andy Burnham. So he's come in. So far, I think I'm right in saying, he seems to be appealing. I mean, most of the sense of, that people have is he's a pretty decent person. We have a strong sense of his interest in localisation, shaking up Westminster. Can he do it? I mean, I guess the, the thing that I want to finish on is, can he deliver? Is he going to be tough and radical? I mean, if he really wants to bring a written constitution, radically devolve power, introduce proportional representation, completely remodel our state, he's going to have to make a lot of enemies. He's going

• 52:39Rory Stewart?

  to be very, very tough. And almost immediately, people are going to say, this is a distraction. Nobody cares about this stuff. That's not top on the voters priority list. And he's also going to have to still deal with the impossible problem of the Labour Party, which is, we're basically bust. There isn't any obvious source of money. And most of the sources of money that are proposed by people, I certainly think are pretty irresponsible and don't really work. So he's going to have to manage a pretty tight financial ship with a Labour Party that still somehow thinks that the whole problem is beastly Tories and austerity, and a proper Labour government would be much more generous, in a way that I don't think he can afford to be. Anyway, do you think, what's he going to do with those things?

• 53:23Alastair Campbell?

  Look, I think he's, he's shown with the Cabinet and the, his, the route to becoming Prime Minister and defenestrating Keir Starmer, who I was glad to see when, left County Street yesterday, went for a drink with, went for a pint with his mates. But I, I, look, the truth is, we don't know. But what we do know, and this is why I think this book is really worth rereading, is that he's got, he's had views about what is wrong with Britain, and in particular, what is wrong with our politics and the way that our politics works. So he is going to have his work cut out in terms of, he, he clearly, I think, wants to change the culture of government in a big way. Now, that is hard, but I think

• 54:06Alastair Campbell?

  that's where he's going to have to take a lot of the tough stuff. I think that is why he has put Healy into the, into the Treasury. This Green Book thing, we should maybe do an episode later on, on the Green Book and how it, how it works. And then we've got to see whether he can just manage the sheer volume of stuff that is going to be, going to be coming at him. But it's interesting to me, I'm just looking at the, the, the media monitoring thing of the front pages. Up till now, the right wing papers have basically been trying to take shots at him the whole time. It's interesting, slightly different tone today. The Daily Telegraph headline, Burnham Pins Hope on Healy, and rather, and rather flattering picture of him on the front page, which is, and then even, even the Daily Mail, which of course hates anybody who's not a sort of, you know, out and out right

• 54:51Alastair Campbell?

  winger, they've got their little Messiah Without a Mandate blob up by their, by their thing. But, but they're not really sort of screaming that. And the main, this picture of him with his hands together, and the front page headline is, let's pray he knows what he's doing. On his first day as PM, Burnham vowed the biggest political changes for 40 years, refused to rule out yet more tax hikes, the old Daily Mail would have said, your taxes are going up, put a convicted fraudster in charge of his leftist agenda, that's Louise Hague and her phones, and made Ed Miliband Foreign Secretary, thankfully not Chancellor. For the Daily Mail, that is really, really, really, really tame. And likewise, the Daily Express, which is, you know, basically Farage fanzine, let's hear how you will bring back hope

• 55:36Alastair Campbell?

  then, Andy. In other words, not totally putting the boot in yet. Now, he won't have a very long honeymoon, that's just, I'm afraid, the way of the modern age. But I think he, I think, I think you're right. I think people feel he's, he's come in, he's got a lot on his plate, and he's started pretty well. So there we are. Yeah, I've got to say, Roy, he's vying for some of the front page and the tabloids with the death of Kevin Keegan. Now, Kevin Keegan, there's a lot we could say about Kevin Keegan, great footballer, first British player to play in the Bundesliga, beloved in Germany as well as England, England manager, manager of Newcastle, legend in Liverpool. But also, I think when, when he died, as he did yesterday, Kevin Keegan, they showed the Tony Blair head tennis thing.

• 56:18Alastair Campbell?

  I think when Tony Blair dies, that will be shown as well, because it was, it was the greatest photo call we ever did. And we thank Kevin Keegan for that and very much more.

• 56:28Rory Stewart?

  Brilliant. Well, 17% famously of Andy Burnham's posts so far have been about football. So you've got a lot in common with him with your love of football and music. But much more to come back to with our new Prime Minister. And we've done a lot on appointments. We've begun to sketch out some of the strategy, got into a bit of the devolution, much more to learn about his economic policies in the days to come from John Healy. Thank you very much, and look forward to continuing in Question Time.

• 56:52Alastair Campbell?

  And Roy, why don't you just put the listeners out of their misery and tell them what we're going to talk about in Question Time, because they're going to be shocked by what you want to talk about most.

• 57:00Rory Stewart?

  Well, okay, so I'm afraid we're coming back to AI, but we're coming back to it from a very exciting direction, which is China has just released an extraordinary new record-breaking frontier model, and announced an amazing new international organisation around AI, which has stolen a march on the US in two ways. Really interesting example of China's new soft power and hard power coming into operation. That, and much more to come in Question Time.

• 57:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, we're going to do Zelensky and some of his troubles, and we're going to do Kemi Badenoch kicking out a few of Rory Stewart-type Tories from her party. See you then.

• 57:40Rory Stewart?

  See you then. Bye-bye.

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