The Real Malala: Jeans, Crushes, & Healing

Malala like you’ve never seen her -- In this deeply personal conversation, Malala Yousafzai opens up about rediscovering herself beyond the headlines by learning to laugh again, making friends at Oxford, falling in love, and learning to heal through therapy. A candid, moving portrait of the woman behind the icon.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Malala defied a ban prohibiting girls from attending school, posting an anonymous blog about the restrictive life for women and children in Pakistan.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  It made her a target. Taliban militants shot her in the head on her school bus.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  She was flown to the UK for medical treatment and has lived there ever since.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  She has since become the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize winner and a fierce advocate for the rights of girls and women around the world.

• 0:24Speaker 03

  I had a historic moment here when I spoke at the UN. One child, one teacher, one book, and one pen can change the world.

• 0:34Speaker 04

  Malala Yousafzai taking to Instagram to celebrate completing her degree in philosophy, politics, and economics at Oxford. Malala Yousafzai is working on a new memoir. It will be her most personal book yet.

• 0:55Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

• 1:03Trevor Noah?

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• 1:38Trevor Noah?

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• 2:23Trevor Noah?

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• 2:30Trevor Noah?

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• 3:44Trevor Noah?

  Where did you fly in from? How are you?

• 3:45Speaker 03

  London. I'm good.

• 3:47Trevor Noah?

  Like now?

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:48Trevor Noah?

  Oh, but you get time back. I like that. I don't know if you do.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  No, I like when I have extra hours.

• 3:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I feel like I'm time traveling.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  I am. I am not a more... Like, I like just more, more hours to live. I like the days to be longer.

• 4:05Trevor Noah?

  I mean, that's one way to think of it. I always... I just feel like I've cheated in a, like a...

• 4:10Speaker 03

  No, it feels really good.

• 4:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I feel like I've cheated the system.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm like, it was such a productive day. How did I manage so many things? It's like you had like seven extra hours.

• 4:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's exactly that feeling. Okay, so London, and then how long are you here for?

• 4:22Speaker 03

  A week.

• 4:23Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:24Trevor Noah?

  And then from here back to London?

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Yes, but then I go to Egypt to visit some of the projects we are supporting for the Gaza refugees, Palestinian refugees. And then we go to Nigeria for our board meeting. And then I come back to London, do more press, then I go to L A, do more press, New York, more press, and then the book is finally out. And then I start the tour.

• 4:49Trevor Noah?

  Then you start the book tour?

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:51Trevor Noah?

  I think you'll you'll enjoy the book tour. You I mean, you you've done them before.

• 4:54Speaker 03

  Uh, not like a big tour, no.

• 4:56Trevor Noah?

  No?

• 4:56Speaker 03

  This is my first proper book tour.

• 4:59Trevor Noah?

  Oh, did you did you enjoy the last one that you did?

• 5:01Speaker 03

  The last one, I was still in school.

• 5:03Trevor Noah?

  So you couldn't really like?

• 5:04Speaker 03

  So I did two events.

• 5:06Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, that's no, that's not a tour then. That's definitely not a tour. You know what I like about the book tour the most is, uh, uh, look, I don't know. I don't know how you'll feel about, but I I feel like that's where you you reap the reward, actually, for the first time of the book.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm excited. I mean, I haven't experienced it yet.

• 5:24Trevor Noah?

  Like most of, because I've, uh, for for my experience was, you write the book, you write the book, you write the book. And then for me, at least, it was, what am I doing? This is taking forever. This is so hard. Then the editor comes back with notes, and then you gotta do more writing, and then you're counting, then you're not, then you're like, what do you leave out, what do you put in? What is this process, process, process? Finally, it's done. And then it's like, what cover do you want? What, you know what I mean? The process, process, process, process. And then it's only when you're on tour for the first time with the book that you see people like interact with it.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then there's this time before the release when you're doing press.

• 5:56Trevor Noah?

  About the book.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  About the book. So you have, you know, you're like, the book is not out yet, but let me tell you everything about the book. And I find it really awkward. I'm like, it's a secret, but you all need to know about it. But I was so surprised to find you downstairs.

• 6:12Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean?

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Because the first time when we met for The Daily Show.

• 6:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  You were very late.

• 6:19Trevor Noah?

  Was I?

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Yes, I was waiting in the studio.

• 6:22Trevor Noah?

  Sounds like me.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  I I waited for a very long time.

• 6:25Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, no. So you I wonder what year you came in. So when, you know.

• 6:29Speaker 03

  Nineteen, beginning, maybe.

• 6:31Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you? That was like, those were like some of the hardest years of my life. And one of the things that always would get me at The Daily Show was, you're trying to make a show.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:40Trevor Noah?

  And you're trying to do it about the news. And then there were the years when, I mean, now we're back in the years, but it was the years when Donald Trump is now in power, right? So the way The Daily Show used to work with Jon Stewart was, they would watch the news the night before.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:54Trevor Noah?

  And then the day of, they would make the show, and then you would put it out.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:58Trevor Noah?

  And then when I became the host, when Trump came into power, the news of the night before meant nothing, absolutely nothing. And so sometimes it would be two P M. After rehearsal, we're literally done. And then people would come in and go, everything you wrote is trash. Everything's wrong. They've changed this. This is not happening. There's a new thing. Trump spoke on the White House lawn. There's a new law they put. And then we'd have to rewrite the show completely. And so oftentimes it meant whoever was sitting in the back waiting for us. Were you watching it on like the screen? Like, I'm trying to think of where you were.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  In the waiting room.

• 7:31Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, in the way in the. But we had snacks.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  You had snacks.

• 7:35Trevor Noah?

  I'd like delicious snacks.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Delicious.

• 7:36Trevor Noah?

  I tried to make sure there were as many delicious snacks as possible.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Yes, it was a very nice cozy space. I enjoyed my time.

• 7:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, well, this time I was on the street.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I was surprised to find you here. I was like, wait a second, he's not just waiting for me in the studio. He's waiting for me on the street to receive me.

• 7:52Trevor Noah?

  You are Malala where.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 7:54Trevor Noah?

  This is where you should be in the streets, waiting to receive the people. There's also not as much money doing a podcast versus the Daily Show. Yeah, with the Daily Show, there's someone to do that. I just have to do it myself here.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  Understandable.

• 8:05Trevor Noah?

  No, no, I, I know, I like it. You know what it is? It's like, it's, you know what? It's actually a perfect segue into like what you said in the book.

• 8:15Trevor Noah?

  We very seldom get to think about the identities that we've adopted for, you know, or or the the identities we've inherited because of things that have happened to us. And so mine in a very different way to yours. People have an idea of me as a person. So they go, you are like this. Some people think I'm very funny. Some people think I'm like only funny even. Some people think I'm very serious. Some people think I'm only political. Some people think I'm stupid. Some people think I'm whatever, but I'm all those things. Do you know what I mean? And so in many ways, like the beginning of your book touched me. And I think it will touch so many people because it starts in a place. That personalizes your story in a way that honestly I didn't expect.

• 9:00Trevor Noah?

  And it's you lying in a hospital bed. People operating on you because of a gunshot wound. And in that moment, you've already inherited a story and there's a journey that's been that's been put forth for you. And so I I wondered that, like, when I was reading that, I was going, oh, how am I like when I meet Malala? Am I, do I defer too much? Should I treat him more normally? Then I'm like, I'm not gonna roast Malala. Is that, but do you roast people? How do you, do you find that people are like, are weird around you, for lack of a better term?

• 9:31Speaker 03

  When people meet me, what shocks them most is that I'm funny. You know, for me, being funny, humor has been a process of healing. And I do not want to talk about the difficult parts. And it's not that I feel uncomfortable talking about them. I easily can explain it to people what happened. And for me, it's just a series of events that I'm telling.

• 9:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 03

  I think it's a blessing for me that I do not remember the incident.

• 10:01Trevor Noah?

  Huh.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  But I do remember when I woke up and how I felt. I was grateful that I was alive, but I was in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK, not in my country anymore. And my parents were not there with me for ten days. They joined after that.

• 10:17Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  So I had to figure out what was happening. Who are these strangers speaking in English? I had never traveled outside Pakistan and I had to just process the fact that, yes, something horrible had happened, but I did not know what exactly. And yeah, so you know, this is a story I I I tell people, I can tell people about how long it took me to recover. I had to learn to like walk and talk again.

• 10:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  And and, you know, and this was truly me, like, for me, I thought this is. This is another life. I am reborn and I felt it. Like I couldn't even speak in the beginning. I couldn't even walk in the beginning.

• 10:55Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 10:55Speaker 03

  I felt like I was learning to crawl and to to get up. So at that time, my focus quickly shifted to the attention that I was now receiving globally.

• 11:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Because of what had happened. And I was getting all of these requests, like, we want to write a book about your life. We want to make a documentary.

• 11:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  You have to give your first speech at the U N. And that's the turn my life took, that in all of that, I just forgot who I was actually meant to be before any of this had happened. Who was Amalala, the funny one, who had a lot of friends, who was back in Pakistan. She was studious, but she was cheeky. All of that was gone. And I somehow just thought that, yes, I have lost a lot of things, including joy, including the laughter. And I never thought I could like make a best friend or, you know, find love and and just be like a normal person. I thought life was now all about activism, so much that I thought it it meant sacrificing everything else.

• 11:58Trevor Noah?

  You know, there's something I think of when when you say that. It reminds me of um South African activists.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 12:02Trevor Noah?

  You know, the people who fought for apartheid to end. And I often think about many of the stories that people would tell about the inner, like the inner circles.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:13Trevor Noah?

  You know, the Nelson Mandelas, the Walter Sissulus, the like whoever they were. And one of the big things that struck me was I thought to myself, activism, in my opinion, is trying to fight for something so that we can be.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:29Trevor Noah?

  You know, and if you if you're stuck in the activism, there's no being.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  No.

• 12:33Trevor Noah?

  You know, now it's like, this is this is all I'm a fighter. I'm fighting, I'm fighting. And we forget the being. And when when when you said that, I was like, oh, yeah. Like Malala being mischievous is something that no one ever thinks of. Malala, I remember the first time you roasted me, actually. I didn't know what was happening.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  I don't remember either.

• 12:49Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. I remember the first time you roasted me. I, I, I remember my, my brain short circu- I, I, I made what I call the Mandela mistake. So Nelson Mandela had been president of South Africa. Obviously, nineteen ninety-four, he becomes president, right? And I think this was after his presidency. He got honored with a, with a coin that had his face on it. And this was like the first time, imagine, first black president, first democratically elected president. But now they're also putting his face on money.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:20Trevor Noah?

  And there was a press conference that was being held and we got invited to this event. And I distinctly remember a journalist, I think they were from the UK. And they asked him a very serious question, very like, and I mean, he's like, you know, he's Nelson Mandela.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:35Trevor Noah?

  Very funny guy, though privately, people who knew him, and even publicly sometimes. But the, the journalist said, Mr. Mandela, how does it feel to live in a country where you were once considered a terrorist? And a person who was persona non grata, and now your face is on that same country's currency. How does it feel? And he paused and he goes, he's like, that's how you know you've made it. When you have your own money. And he's like, no more socializing with poor people.

• 14:10Trevor Noah?

  And I laughed.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:13Trevor Noah?

  And people turned to look, because I got the joke, maybe it's a South African, like the rhythm I got. And people looked at me like, shh, hey. And everyone in the room was just like, mm. Mm, yes, so, so, I was like, that's not an um. The man made a joke. He's saying that he's made it now, so he doesn't have to hang out with the poor.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:31Trevor Noah?

  Which is crazy, because Nelson Mandela would never say that. But I realized I did that with you. You, you roasted me. You said a few things. And I remember going, oh, I think this is a very powerful life lesson that Malala just shared with me. When it was just like, no, no, she's just roasting you. Like, do you, do you think people miss you because of that?

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, you know, that's how uh my image has been in in the public. So when I have done interviews, yes, people are quite surprised and I make a very basic joke and people laugh out loud. It's like a very basic joke. Like, you know, with your friend Jon Stewart, I just made a joke about, like, you know, Birmingham being as beautiful as New Jersey. And he just could not stop laughing because I was like, yeah, you know. But you know, New Jersey anyway.

• 15:21Trevor Noah?

  Because, yeah, but I mean, it's because we don't expect it to come from you.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  I know.

• 15:24Trevor Noah?

  You're like a saint.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  I know, but I I like being funny. I just.

• 15:28Trevor Noah?

  I like that for you.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  The most beautiful thing, you know, that we can laugh together.

• 15:32Trevor Noah?

  I really, I like that for you as well because it's it's human and the book is very human, like the story you're telling is, dare I say, is like Malala being messy.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, a bit.

• 15:44Trevor Noah?

  My words, not yours, my words, not yours, but like, uh, you know, you know, I was I was looking through some of the the the parts that really stuck with me and. And I was like, it's it's amazing how this book feels to me like you you're on this journey of reclaiming something that we as society never thought that we took from you. Which was the fullness of who you are as a person, not being one, not being the other. But it's like people made you hyper visible, but then also invisible at the same time.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  I think that's a very good description of it, but I don't think it's fully society. I think you internalize it so much that. You think that's who you are supposed to be. I feel that's what happened to me. A lot of friends used to like joke that I was um more like Mother Teresa or Adelai Lama. That I was supposed to live a life like that. So when I got this opportunity to be in college and it's like a normal thing, right? Just going to university, going to college, but for me it was a big deal because firstly, I was now not under the surveillance of my parents.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  You know, it's it's a South Asian family.

• 16:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I mean, that's a.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  And I could not even like go to a friend's gathering there because they were just too worried about my safety and just too scared about something happening. And I could not figure out what that something was gonna be. But I was supposed to be at home and then it, you know, spend the rest of my day at school and then be at these events, doing conferences and speeches and interviews. That was how my whole life was, being an activist and then this quiet student in a in a classroom.

• 17:25Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 17:26Speaker 03

  That when I was in university, I said, okay, the parents are not watching. Um, nobody's judging you because nobody technically really knows you. And make as many friends as possible. And I was so glad that I changed myself a bit. At school, I was a very quiet person.

• 17:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  I had become a quiet person in the UK because I was like, you know, I don't know how to fit in. It's I'm a late comer. I did not make friends on time and I just only had one best friend. So in college, I had one goal to make as many friends as possible. I was saying hello to everybody. It sometimes felt awkward, but I said, don't worry about it. Um, and and it changed everything for me because I made so many friends who are now friends with me for life. They have changed my life completely. I found safety and comfort among them.

• 18:24Trevor Noah?

  It it also makes me feel like you you claimed something that you had lost that people didn't necessarily realize. And I I noticed that, you know, when you're telling your story, I found it beautiful that you went backwards in time to reclaim beauty that I think most people wouldn't have assumed existed in your life.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:43Trevor Noah?

  You know, like when I think of the story of Malala as it was told in the world, it seemed very much like, oh, she's been rescued. She's been rescued from everything. Thank goodness, Malala, now you get to live in the West. What a beautiful life. Now you have friends. Now you have a future. Now you have hope. You have dreams. You have beauty. And yet in in the book, you go backwards and you painted pictures that made me go like, I need to go to Pakistan. I need to go see these valleys. I need to eat these fruits. I need to travel through these places. Like, what do you think, or why do you think that was so important for you to do to like, paint those images as vividly as you did as the beginning, as opposed to the beginning that we know?

• 19:22Speaker 03

  So, when I joined university, I still had not been back to Pakistan. Those memories from my home stayed with me. And that's how I felt a connection to home.

• 19:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  Because I felt like there was, there was this big disconnection. I could not really connect with that old life. And it was purely these memories, like thinking about my friends, sometimes talking to my old school best friend Muniba, and sometimes just opening Google Maps and zooming in on, on the street and looking at the rivers and the mountains and thinking about the time I had spent there as a child with friends giggling, laughing. And sometimes I would question myself if that was all real.

• 20:02Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  And why have I ended up in a, in a place and why can't I go back? So, um, it was, um, around springtime in my first year of university, when we were on our Easter break.

• 20:13Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  That I told my dad, we have to go back to Pakistan. I have to go see my friends, see my hometown, see my relatives, because I am not feeling okay. I feel incomplete. I think it's, it's affecting me. Um, I'm, and it's, you know, when you feel like this is the last chance that you could see your home or your loved ones.

• 20:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I can imagine.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  And it just felt that, um, I may not get another chance. It always kept getting delayed and I said, there will always be an excuse. There's always like something happening in the country. The country is beautiful, but there's always something happening.

• 20:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  With politics. So I said, you know, it will somehow like never be the right time. But we, we have to go regardless. And we went there and that was such a fulfilling journey.

• 21:01Trevor Noah?

  It's beautiful.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  We met our friends and family.

• 21:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 03

  And it was, it was strange. It was, it was like comforting. It was, all of these feelings were there and. And I and I'm so glad that we did it. Uh, I met my school best friend and like, you know, and I could just see how the friends connected with me uh the most because for them, it was all of those childhood memories that were coming back.

• 21:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  You know, how cheeky we were and.

• 21:28Trevor Noah?

  They they keep a piece of you. That's what I always think.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:30Trevor Noah?

  Like, you know, I know you were a Twilight fan, but like for me, it was it was like Harry Potter was really formative. And I I I always call my friends my Horcruxes because I feel like your friends keep a piece of you no matter where they are.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:43Trevor Noah?

  And so when you go home, I mean, I experienced this in a very different way. But when I went back to South Africa, you know, like after hosting The Daily Show, when I met with people who had always known me, I realized that they contained parts of me that I hadn't been able to fully explore or enjoy or revel in. Because people in America, not good or bad, they just didn't know that of me.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:02Trevor Noah?

  You know, so now I had people who could be like, oh, naughty trivia, you're back. You, you, you know, that that thing.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  No, suddenly you remember so much about yourself that you had forgotten. I was like, no way that was me. Yes, I do remember.

• 22:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  You know, we were running in the field because we stole some plums from the other relatives, you know, farm or.

• 22:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Uh, and I was like, wow, like there was once a part of me who was adventurous. And and there are so many things that they remember.

• 22:32Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  For them, it's still something that happened recently. It's so vivid in their mind, but you have forgotten things you remember and are not that important to them. It's like really fascinating.

• 22:43Trevor Noah?

  Did you, did you, how did it feel the first time you had a mango again? Like a like a mango from Pakistan. I asked this.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:51Trevor Noah?

  Some people won't know. They'll be like, this is the most random question ever. I have a fight with people all over the world and I go, if you come from a place with mangoes.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:58Trevor Noah?

  There's a mango from your country that I argue is the best mango in the world. Like in South Africa, we have some of them. And then in Egypt, I've had amazing mangoes. And I'm trying to think of where else.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Brazil also.

• 23:08Trevor Noah?

  Brazil also has some nice mangoes. Mango is not bad in Brazil. But I was like.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Pakistani mangoes.

• 23:13Trevor Noah?

  Are they that good?

• 23:14Speaker 03

  Pakistani mangoes are so good. They're not there for that long. The season is very, very short. It's just a bit of that July, August time.

• 23:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  And.

• 23:24Trevor Noah?

  So what are they, like the little yellow ones or the?

• 23:26Speaker 03

  Big, big, but.

• 23:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I like that.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  Like, yellow ones and they're like so sweet, I can't even explain, you have to try them.

• 23:32Trevor Noah?

  I'll try, I'll try.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:33Trevor Noah?

  Did you go back and, like, what was the first thing you had that was just, I mean?

• 23:36Speaker 03

  There was not the mango season because you can't even preserve those mangoes. It's not the same. But I had like apples and plums and peaches and apricots and grapes and.

• 23:48Trevor Noah?

  It's like.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  And tea, we love chai. We love Pakistani tea, which is, which has so much milk in it and sugar and it's boiled for. Forever.

• 24:00Trevor Noah?

  The one where they pour, like they pour again and again and again.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  Boiling and then just pouring it, yeah.

• 24:05Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:06Trevor Noah?

  I think there's actually a place I went to in London where they do that. And it was the first time I had it, it was, it was amazing.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  And then you dip your biscuit in it.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  And then you take a sip of tea and that's the best feeling ever. And people do that on the hottest day of like the summer.

• 24:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Like it's, it's afternoon, it's boiling hot and people like, let's have a cup of tea.

• 24:29Trevor Noah?

  You just.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:31Trevor Noah?

  I loved, I genuinely, I, I loved how you, I don't know, it, it felt like, I think a lot of people feel this when they read the book is like. You, you possess this magical ability to not just weave the tapestry of what you're experiencing. But I feel like you invite the reader to explore their own. Cause as you were longing for home, I found myself longing for home. And then as you were re enjoying it, I found myself appreciating the things that I, I re enjoyed and it, it's like.

• 25:03Trevor Noah?

  It's beautiful and it was also real. You know, for instance, there's a, there's a, there's a story that you share, an anecdote that you share with, with your younger brother. And coming from South Africa, I think your story made me realize how strange our stories can be.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:21Trevor Noah?

  But also how normal they are for everybody who's in them. You know, you tell the story of your younger brother digging a grave.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:28Trevor Noah?

  But not in like a morbid way, but like, how old, he was like five at the time, I think?

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, he was very little, I mean, um, and he was just, you know, digging a grave and like, kids just forgot what it was like to be a child.

• 25:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  And what does it mean for kids to play because they were hearing firing and helicopters and the news of people getting killed. Uh, so for them, it was just normal to be like digging the ground and you ask them what they're doing. And he replied, digging a grave. And that's just a reality you accept. Even the, the, the police and thief game, I don't know, it's like different in every culture.

• 26:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, like robbers, banks. What do you call it in Pakistan?

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Chor police.

• 26:14Trevor Noah?

  Chor police, okay. What is chor? What does that mean?

• 26:16Speaker 03

  Chor is like the thief.

• 26:17Trevor Noah?

  Okay, the thief. Okay, okay, got it, got it, got it.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  And people switched to like the Taliban and army.

• 26:22Trevor Noah?

  Oh damn.

• 26:23Speaker 03

  So one kid would be the Taliban, the other kid would be then the army and they would be like chasing each other. So it does affect kids a lot. And, you know, we were very young. I was eleven years old when the Taliban announced ban on girls' education.

• 26:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  And I remember like those days when I felt like I could not have a future. That's how they had taken away all the rights from women and girls. And we even would walk to school. Um, sometimes like in our home clothes, not in our school uniforms. We would hide our bags under our hefty long scarf so that they could not see it. And we still continued to go to the school, but we tried to hide it in every possible way we could so the Taliban uh could not see us. But that's how determined we were. And, you know, at eleven, you just want to be a kid playing in school.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Um, and here we were like sacrificing and, and, and fighting, like risking our lives for our education. Our lives just changed completely.

• 27:24Trevor Noah?

  In those moments, it doesn't seem like you thought you were fighting for something much larger than yourself. You, you were doing the thing that I sometimes think we forget in society, which was You were the people that you now fight for.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 27:39Trevor Noah?

  And I I I'm trying to figure out a more articulate way to say it, but I think in crafting your story and sharing it, you remind you remind us that the people that we're often advocating for, they have agency.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:54Trevor Noah?

  You know, we often we often make it like, oh, we're giving to charity. We, oh, the the the homeless person do this for, and it's like, oh, no, no. You forget that a lot of the time, the people in these situations.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:03Trevor Noah?

  They are the main character in their story, and they have agency.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Yes, and we were not a nonprofit. We were not an organization. We were not even some recognized activists. We were just people there in the community.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  And we simply wanted to have our normal lives back.

• 28:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  We wanted to live in peace as we were before and continue our education. It was as simple as that. But because of the Taliban, we were now living under terrorism. But you know, that I'm so grateful that that is something of the past and it has changed for us. I survived. I became an activist through that. But when I do this work today, like I think about the eleven year old Malala.

• 28:51Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  And I know there are millions like her out there. They're not just girls who are suffering or who are being left behind. These are girls who are determined.

• 29:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  They have a voice.

• 29:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  They have agency, and they're actually fighting for their rights. They could be doing it in loud ways. They could be do it doing it out in the public. Or they could just simply be doing it at home when they're picking up their books and their pens and and and trying to learn. And I'm seeing that happening in so many parts of the world, from Nigeria to Pakistan to Brazil, all the way to Afghanistan right now. I was talking to four of the Afghan girls who we are supporting through Malala Fund Project. And they are learning through a secret school there because the Taliban have banned girls' education. And one girl told me that she has converted her home into a school.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  So that she at least feels that she can continue learning at home.

• 29:54Trevor Noah?

  It's beautiful.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  Um, so you know, this is the the resilience, the determination of girls. They do not need any inspirational people.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  They already know what needs to be done, what future they deserve. We just need to listen to them.

• 30:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, ironically, they don't need the inspiration, they just need the support.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 30:15Trevor Noah?

  Oftentimes, we make the mistake of thinking we're coming in to save the people is it's like the Superman imagery. Like even in the most recent Superman, I don't know if you have you seen it?

• 30:25Speaker 03

  I saw it.

• 30:25Trevor Noah?

  You saw it? Yeah. So you know, there's that scene where the people are like Superman, Superman. And I had like mixed feelings about it because on the one hand, I was like, I mean, I guess they're cheering for Superman. But it made it seem like Superman was their hope.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:38Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know, in real life, it feels like they would just be fighting and then Superman should help.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:44Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 30:45Speaker 03

  I know, I know, you know, it's just like, oh, suddenly it looks like it's a country in the global south, the Middle East or, you know.

• 30:52Trevor Noah?

  It was very like, where is this place?

• 30:55Speaker 03

  I know, very interesting scene.

• 30:56Trevor Noah?

  What is this place? This border is weird, like all of it was, um, actually, no, you say?

• 31:03Speaker 03

  No, I was just gonna say that it's not about somebody with superpowers saving us. I think it's about solidarity, support.

• 31:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  That can make a huge difference. I think it's the local people who can lead change. And that's the whole model of the work that I'm doing through Malala Fund. We are supporting local education activists. So, you know, we do global advocacy for education and I speak and I, you know, have created this global platform, but like our investments actually go to local organizations. In Tanzania, Ethiopia, Pakistan, India, um, I mean, Brazil and um, sort of, I think Afghanistan. And these activists are changing policies, they are working on legislations, they are working with local community leaders.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  They are working directly with girls and a lot of these activists are young girls themselves. So it's like a phenomenal work. Like when you visit one project, you just see the impact that these activists are creating. It's truly phenomenal. In Tanzania, this summer I went and I saw how.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  One organization, M S China Initiative, were addressing the issue of girl's safety walking to school.

• 32:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 03

  Because these girls have to walk for like up to ten miles. I just could not believe the number. I double checked. I said, are you sure it's ten miles? They said, yes. That's how long girls have to walk. So they brought in bicycles initiative.

• 32:33Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  To help them uh have a safer and easier and quicker journey to the schools. Um and it's, you know, not just addressing the transport issue, but it's giving them safety as well. It's just incredible work that these activists do. Like, you cannot fix these problems from D C or London.

• 32:48Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  It's about us further supporting and strengthening the local activism that is happening. It's through grants, it's through giving them the tools, the technical support, and being there as their allies. Like, you know, that's, that's all we need. Because for a lasting, sustainable change, we have to strengthen the local communities.

• 33:12Trevor Noah?

  Well, I also think we have to see them as people. And I, that's what I love, you know, in what you've done in the book, is like reminding yourself that you're looking at people.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:21Trevor Noah?

  Oftentimes, people think that refugees are refugees because they don't want to be in their country, or refugees are refugees because, you know, their country sucks, or because, and it's like, no, no, no, no. These are people who want to stay there.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:32Trevor Noah?

  You know, something's pushing them. They have friends, they have rituals, they have ideas, they have like, there's like a vibe that you don't want to, there's mangoes.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:39Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? There's the mangoes.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  And think about your life right now, like, why would you just leave your home?

• 33:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  Who wants to pack as much as they can and go and start a life in a new country? Who wants to walk for days and days, put their lives at risk, and somehow, you know, be praying that they find safety somewhere? Like, nobody wants that. Becoming a refugee is the last resort. It's the last and the only option that people have who um have to leave their homes because of the challenging circumstances. I think we have to show more empathy because this could happen to any of us due to any circumstances, from climate-related events to conflicts and other dangers.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Thinking, you know, we should think about our neighbors. If somebody is in difficult situation, we we should open our doors. And I also shared this story um sometimes that when we became displaced in Swat Valley um in in Pakistan, it was around two thousand and nine. It was not that most people were in these like refugee camps. A lot of the people were welcomed by strangers in the neighboring cities. People just opened their doors. They just gave their rooms, their homes, their food, everything. And in our culture, that was like completely normal because hospitality is a part of uh our culture. It's part of the Pashtun hospitality. It's a big part of the Pakistani culture. So I hope that, you know, we we promote these good values everywhere.

• 35:17Trevor Noah?

  Actually, I hope we do, especially because we forget how hard it is to begin a life somewhere else. Like

• 35:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:24Trevor Noah?

  You know, you know, there's there's the story you tell when when you're packing your bags, you know, to go to university in Birmingham. And this this whole period of your life, I again, I would have never thought of you like that. You're one of the smartest people I've ever met. You, one of the most thoughtful human beings I know. You you seem to have a broad range of knowledge that just, I mean, it spans everything. And then I'm reading these stories of you having self doubt and struggling and what was like forty one percent in English, I think it was.

• 35:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, like in every subject, almost.

• 35:58Trevor Noah?

  But you see, like, like in my head, I go like, no, my Allah has always been the high achiever and and yet here you are stressed about belonging. And probably probably the funniest one for me was what you packed in your bag.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:10Trevor Noah?

  When you knew you were gonna be out of your parents' watch. It was like jeans. Even, okay, this is what I mean.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  Cardigans?

• 36:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  I never want to wear cardigans again, but at the time I was like, I was looking up on Google what is trending, so I searched up Selena Gomez twenty seventeen.

• 36:27Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Casual style.

• 36:28Trevor Noah?

  Yes, let's do it. Oh, that's amazing.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Like, what is Emma Watson wearing these days? You know, like, what are these cool girls wearing that I wanna wear as well? I had no idea because before that, I had never really worn jeans and just more casual western style style clothing.

• 36:48Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  And and I was thinking about like, okay, what else is there? Outside shalwarka means that's the only dress my mom wants me to wear because for her I am representing my whole culture.

• 37:00Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  And my relatives are watching me, so we cannot cause any trouble and she should not be taking long phone calls because people are just shocked to see me in a different dress. And so I was like, I need to figure out a way. So I was still following some rules around like, okay, you know, keep the sleeves long and it's it's still like, you know, a bit baggy and and but I was like, yeah, I want to um assimilate. I want to be among these students and I want to be invisible in some ways that nobody can spot me because my Pakistani clothes are very flashy and bright and colorful and embroidered and all of that. So my goal was that when I go to college, nobody's shocked like, oh, that's who she is or

• 37:45Speaker 03

  oh, this is very similar to the person we have seen on TV.

• 37:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  I wanted to look slightly different as well.

• 37:51Trevor Noah?

  Malala undercover. That's what I'm hearing.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Undercover.

• 37:53Trevor Noah?

  TV show, Malala undercover.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  A student, a student. Like, imagine when you are in college and somebody is like dressed up nicely. No, everybody's just

• 38:01Trevor Noah?

  Everyone looks the same.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  In a hoodie, in a cardigan, in a jumper, they're, you know, they're wearing leggings or what do you call it in America? I think I'm using a lot of British.

• 38:10Trevor Noah?

  No, I think leggings are leggings. I don't wear them, but I I think it's leggings.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know, like, the the I sometimes struggle, like trainers, boots.

• 38:18Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, that thing. Yeah, we're just, I don't know, some people.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  People will figure it out. Yeah.

• 38:23Trevor Noah?

  People, let them, let them Google it the way you had to Google the fashions. Be like, what was, what was Malala wearing? Because because this is the thing, like, people, I mean, the fact that you had to ask people like what fish fingers were.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:36Trevor Noah?

  They they are the same thing that we in South Africa. Fish fingers are, it's like a processed type of fish that's then in a, okay, okay.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:43Trevor Noah?

  Do you like fish fingers?

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Yes, but you know, for me, it was like the name. You know, if you think about it, fish fingers, what?

• 38:49Trevor Noah?

  What did you, okay, what did you think it was? Because I've I've actually asked people this question and there's there's one of two. Some people go, these are the fingers of fish, but fish don't have fingers. So it's it's referring to a part of the fish that could be a finger.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 39:03Trevor Noah?

  Or it's pieces of fish that are shaped like fingers. Which one did you think when you read fish fingers?

• 39:08Speaker 03

  The farmer.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  The first one.

• 39:10Trevor Noah?

  So you thought it was like a part of a fish?

• 39:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was like, there's many species, who knows? You know, there could be a fish out there.

• 39:18Trevor Noah?

  It could be like a British fish. Hello.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  Exactly, like, do we know all all the fish? No, we don't.

• 39:24Trevor Noah?

  There's the one with the light bulbs. So I mean, there could be one with the fingers.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 39:28Trevor Noah?

  I mean, that makes sense.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Yes. But then, yeah, eventually my mom also uh found out what clothes I had taken.

• 39:35Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  When she um so basically, you know, I I went for rowing.

• 39:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  And I wore my jeans and a green bomber jacket.

• 39:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you went for, we got to talk about that. You went for everything, but let's, yeah, let's talk about the rowing, yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then I came back. I thought it was like a fun day, but I realized I'm never gonna do rowing again. Firstly, because you have to get up at five A M.

• 39:55Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  And secondly, you you should know how to swim, and I couldn't swim. So I was like, okay, good experience, but it's done. But that evening, I got a call from my parents saying that. Why were you wearing jeans and like you have caused so much trouble? And there's a whole like social media backlash. And I looked at my phone and there was a whole backlash going on against me wearing jeans.

• 40:19Trevor Noah?

  Who took the picture? Who was the snitch?

• 40:20Speaker 03

  Some stranger.

• 40:21Trevor Noah?

  Ah, you know, snitches, man.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  But.

• 40:24Trevor Noah?

  It's just always.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  Like, I was very careful in in university in the beginning. I did not want to go to the clubs and did not want to dance. I was very careful and and because I thought like there could be a photo that could be taken out of context. And people might create a whole controversy, like a cultural one that, you know, you're not modest enough. You're not Islamic enough, you're not Pashtun or Pakistani enough, whatever identity they wanna pick on. And I will cause trouble. So I I I skipped things, you know, I was. Trying to be, you know, a, a, um, an obedient daughter, but in the end, it was just simply jeans that were criticized. And I was like, if people are criticizing my jeans, I think I'm gonna change my approach.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  I'm just gonna continue wearing jeans. I'm not going to defend it and I'm going to move on. Uh, because I remember my parents were telling me that, so what are we gonna do now?

• 41:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  Should we issue a statement? I was like, statement about what? Like saying what? I will never wear jeans again? Or I wore them because? I said, there's none of that.

• 41:29Trevor Noah?

  It must have been isolating as well, cause so here's the, here's the thing that, that, that's happening in this moment, right? As I'm thinking of the story, you're in a world where you've left one world where there are norms and we all have those. And then you move into another world where there are new norms. If you hold on to all of those, the previous ones, you'll never fit in, you'll never belong, you'll always be isolated. If you, if you hold on to all of the new ones, then you become isolated and you don't belong in, in where you're from. So you, you, it's basically this tug and tug of war between where you were and where you are.

• 42:04Speaker 03

  And I was also noticing that in the trolling or the backlash I was receiving.

• 42:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  There were some people who were saying that, why am I wearing a headscarf? And they were criticizing that I was not fully independent and because I was still wearing.

• 42:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, now you're stuck between like all different worlds.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  For everybody, it was all about, am I representing my, my cultural, culturally? For some, it was like, well, you have, um, given up to the patriarchal culture or you are, you have lost your autonomy and that's why you're dressing that way. And I was like, it's none of that. It's just, these things are a part of me. And sometimes I want to wear something, sometimes I don't. I don't even think about who I'm representing. I just want to feel comfortable in what I wear. And who knows, I might change my sense of fashion with time, but it's just the scrutiny that you face and that you're constantly being watched and criticized and, and, and one thing which I told my dad

• 43:08Speaker 03

  when he was arguing with me was that, why is it always about my clothes? That is a topic of discussion. My brothers immediately switched to jeans and tops.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Not a problem. No calls from our relatives.

• 43:26Trevor Noah?

  I like how you just drag them into it.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  No.

• 43:29Trevor Noah?

  Your brothers were safe and you were like, what about, that is the classic sibling move. What about my brothers?

• 43:38Speaker 03

  It is true. Also, like, I'm really scared of my mom, so it's really hard to argue with her because you will never win. So somehow you have to just come to an agreement where she respects your decision somehow, but you can never say that I was right. You can never say that. But with my dad, I am like a debater. I argue with him. I was like, dad, have you ever pointed a finger at your two sons and what they were? And he stopped for a second and said, yes, I think you are right. Yeah.

• 44:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, he, he is um an amazing father, an amazing man, an amazing husband. For, for me, of course, like, I was so grateful that he was a great father and he always tells a story that don't ask me what I did, but ask me what I did not do for my daughter, and that is I did not clip her wings. Amazing father, but I think what made an a greater um impact or what made like an even bigger difference on me was how he was treating my mom. How he was a great husband as well.

• 44:46Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  And that influenced me a lot in how I had like very high expectations for the person who was going to be my life partner, even though I had a lot of like questions about if I'll find one and do I deserve one?

• 44:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Is he the right one? But the one thing I was sure of was that I needed, that I know how I should be treated because I saw how my dad was treating my mom. Um. So I think, you know, our dads can also be role models for us, for how they can be like good husbands and also like better parents to the sons in the family.

• 45:19Trevor Noah?

  No, definitely. I agree with that. I agree.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  And how they treat others and.

• 45:22Trevor Noah?

  So wait, wait. So uh what about your brothers? Do they have like the flip relationship? Because a lot of the time that'll be the case is like the girls will have an easier time with their dad and then the boys will have an easier time with their mom.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  We have a typical family.

• 45:33Trevor Noah?

  Oh, so it is. It's exactly that.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Three siblings, I'm the oldest daughter and then two younger brothers. The middle one is also following the stereotype. It's just like such a stereotypical house.

• 45:44Trevor Noah?

  You're so normal, Malala. So noble.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  I know. All the memes and reels you guys see are like so relevant.

• 45:49Trevor Noah?

  And send them across.

• 45:53Trevor Noah?

  Don't go anywhere because we got more what now after this.

• 45:58Trevor Noah?

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• 46:43Trevor Noah?

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• 47:26Trevor Noah?

  One of my favorite things is their Pima Cotton Luxe Touch T-shirts. And it's become one of those pieces I keep reaching for. The cotton has this really smooth, premium feel to it. The fit is great, and it just lays really nicely. And I think that's what you sometimes take for granted with simple clothes. When they're done really well, they become the foundation of an entire outfit. You can throw on a jacket, a sweater, whatever you want, but everything works because you started with the right thing. That's what I like about Quince. It feels premium without feeling like you're trying too hard. It's effortless. So find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 48:09Trevor Noah?

  Get free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. Hello over there.

• 48:19Trevor Noah?

  And if Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was What Now with Trevor Noah. It's the best way to support the show.

• 48:34Trevor Noah?

  As we move through your life,

• 48:39Trevor Noah?

  I loved how you, it's like you found joy in the small things. But really, not in a saintly way, not in a pious way. You know, like your dorm, I think it was in Oxford.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Not like I opened a book and I smelled the pages.

• 48:53Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no.

• 48:54Speaker 03

  Not like that.

• 48:54Trevor Noah?

  Not like that, not pretentious.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  It was more like I closed the book.

• 48:58Trevor Noah?

  It's exactly.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I was like, oh, I was smelling what my friends were having. And I was like, hmm, what's that? And I was like, oh, what are these new things? And you know, what are these people doing?

• 49:09Trevor Noah?

  I want to talk to you about your first friend because

• 49:13Trevor Noah?

  it seems like one of the most important relationships in your life. And your first friend, I should say, in your new life. Because you had your friends from home. You've got your school friends. You've got your childhood friends. But you make this new friend, who I feel like we are partially, we should all be grateful to her as well. Because she just gave you normal, you know?

• 49:35Speaker 03

  Which one?

• 49:36Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I think it was Cora, maybe?

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, the first one, right?

• 49:39Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Yes, so she was my height. And when I was walking around on the college open day, just trying to figure out who to say hello to, I saw her and I, you know, was giving myself this confidence that don't be shy. Say hello. It's like, hi, I'm Malala, what's your name? Hi, I'm Cora. I'm, you know, it's like, what are you studying? Studying PPE. I was like, same, I'm also studying PPE.

• 50:07Trevor Noah?

  Wait, what is PPE?

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Philosophy, politics and economics.

• 50:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, oh, okay, okay. Philosophy, politics and economics. Okay, PPE, got it.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 50:14Trevor Noah?

  I didn't go to university. I don't know any of these things, sorry.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Where do you live? And why did you decide on this college? You just start a conversation and... So, you know, we became friends, but I thought she might ask me about my past and and she might have these like, you know, strange questions that I'm often time asked. She asked none of that, never, never in my life. All of the friends I made in university, they never immediately asked about my profile and like, you know, what they had seen on the news or um and and there were some people, other people who were asking me things like, so what was what was it like meeting this person or that person and what did you say to Obama? It's like I did not write the minutes.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  Uh, what was it like meeting Emma Watson? They were like, can we meet her? And I said, like, no, just because I have met somebody once doesn't mean I have their phone number and I can call them right now.

• 51:11Trevor Noah?

  Nobody understands this. I'm so glad you're saying this right now. Nobody under they they see you meet someone once.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:18Trevor Noah?

  They think you're now best friends. They think you have their phone number. They think you can like organize something with the have you had it where people ask you to pass something on?

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I've I've got that.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Can you ask them to record a video message for me? It's my birthday.

• 51:33Trevor Noah?

  Yes, I will send this. I will send this to Barack Obama. I have his number and I'll ask him to send them. It's it's so wild. But what but what it feels like they were giving you was it feels like they were allowing you to write your story from scratch in that moment.

• 51:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, so the people who became my friends for life were asking me about my assignment, how I was coping with the essay crisis, did I need help with the questions? And what party was happening that evening? Uh, who was up to work, who was dating who? And I was quite helpful in giving relationship advice. So they were bringing up all of their uh problems to me. A lot of them were just problems. And I was like, yeah, this guy is sort of signaling to you very clearly that he does not want to talk to you. If he's taking three days to reply.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  You know, so.

• 52:29Trevor Noah?

  So you were that friend in the crew. You were like the relationship expert friend.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, because at the time I thought, you know, I'm I'm just this observer.

• 52:37Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 52:37Speaker 03

  I can see from the outside. I'm like, I'm like the coach. They were like, how do you know it? I said, you know, like, coaches are never on the field. You know, they don't, they're not the players, but they know what what is happening.

• 52:49Trevor Noah?

  Right. They're watching the game.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  They're watching the game.

• 52:51Trevor Noah?

  Sometimes you have the best perspective because you're watching the game.

• 52:53Speaker 03

  Exactly. So I were, I was fixing all of their problems. I I knew who was putting too much effort and who needed to put a bit more effort and who needed to move on from their school boyfriend and realize that they were changing as a person as well. They could not be stuck in the past.

• 53:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that feels a little bit like it cut it like it it went, you know, like one of, you know, sometimes you give advice and then it goes close to home.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:16Trevor Noah?

  You know, like, were you ever experiencing any of that in giving the advice? Realizing there's parts of you that you had from home that you were trying to hold on to, that you now had to let go of, but still hold on to the parts of yourself you wanted to keep?

• 53:28Speaker 03

  I didn't understand that question.

• 53:30Trevor Noah?

  No. So what I mean is, so, so you, in this moment, you're giving this advice to your friends. And and what you said was really poignant. You said, I was, there's one friend where you noticed that she was holding on to a boyfriend from the past and an idea of herself. And you're like, hey, now it's time for you to move on.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:46Trevor Noah?

  And I wonder if that cut close to home for you, because you were also in a position where you had this older version of yourself. You're now in the present and you're facing this uncertain future. Did you also feel like for yourself, you have to figure out what you're willing to let go of and change and move towards?

• 54:04Speaker 03

  I think it was a process.

• 54:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  And it's still happening. There are parts of me that I suddenly realized that I'm letting go of. It's it's really hard. There are still things that I want to be a part of me forever. Uh, but it's it's really a process. I think in college for me, the most important thing was just being that.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  Jolly student that I once was in Pakistan. And to know that this could be my safe space where I feel like nobody's watching me.

• 54:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  And I could be myself. I don't know what I am. I don't know what I enjoy and what I love. But I just want to allow myself to experience all of these things. Because nobody's watching. And, and that was the best time. Climbing the rooftops, skipping assignments, watching the sunrise in the morning. Chatting with friends for hours and hours and hours.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Going for grocery shopping and skipping lectures. I, I feel like I'm just mentioning all the bad things. Also, sometimes doing your assignments and sometimes working hard. Uh, the other thing was asking for help when you need help with your academic performance. Like, uh, you know, it, some of us are, are hesitant because we feel like are we the only ones who need it? But when I found out about the student support. I realized, okay, you know, this might be the only hope for me now because of how I had struggled with my. Um, studies for a very long time in college.

• 55:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  That when I went there to that room, I realized that I wasn't the only one there. There were like other students, um, walking out of that, uh, study room. And I was like, oh, like, so I'm, I'm not the only one. And there's like some of my friends who are also getting this support. So I changed my approach. I said, okay, I'll, I'll always make sure that I ask for help. Yeah.

• 56:16Trevor Noah?

  That's.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  But that's it. That's like a normal college life, right? Sort of.

• 56:21Trevor Noah?

  And, and that's, yeah, but that's, that's, I think that's what makes it so powerful is.

• 56:29Trevor Noah?

  We forget how much all of us in life will always um will always yearn for the thing we don't have. Right. And in a perfect world, everyone will have enough of what they need. You know, whether it's good or even friction could be bad, just have enough of what you need. And so I do like that you're talking about the rooftops and the late nights and the talking to the friends. Because it feels like in this moment in time, that's what you needed.

• 56:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I knew that I would be in college just for three years.

• 56:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 56:57Speaker 03

  I did not know what was happening after that. That I said, this is the only time maybe that I'll have such fun and I could be myself. And yeah, I was like, all the surveillance cameras are not there. I'm in my safe space.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  And college was, of course, like a really exciting and fun time, but it was also a difficult time at this. Because, you know, I had some experiences where um it was the first time that I had a panic attack, like a big panic attack. When I was with some of my friends and was struggling with my assignments.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  So one friend invited me to hang out with them outside in the gardens. And and and I joined them. It was still late at night, but I said, you know, like, this is this is so normal for me. I'll finish my essay by by by by the morning.

• 57:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  And we were just chatting and they were trying uh bong. I had never seen bong.

• 58:01Trevor Noah?

  A bong?

• 58:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, like a bong.

• 58:03Trevor Noah?

  That thing?

• 58:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:04Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Exactly that. Anyway, I was like, oh, what is this? And they were like, you know, just like related to weed, all of that. I was like, oh, yeah, like, that's not that serious. Um so they were like, you know, you have to try it. So I took one puff. I coughed. It just was like, oh, you know, what is this? Then they were like, no, just, you know, try one more time. I was like, okay, tried it again. And I felt like I I inhaled it and suddenly just went inside.

• 58:36Speaker 03

  And I don't know where time went, but this time I like I lost, I disconnected from reality. And I felt like um I I I was just like, I thought I was dead again. I thought I had been attacked and I thought um even though I don't remember anything about the incident, I thought it was ha- all happening in repeat. And time slowed down. I could not feel my body anymore. And my friend suddenly realized what was happening. So she held uh me and I was holding her hand tight.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  She somehow took me to her room and I don't know how I survived that night, but I could not sleep because as soon as I would try to close my eyes. I thought this was the end of it. I would not be able to wake up. Um I thought like I was, I was somehow like losing life. And it was um, it felt like it was again that whole time of the attack where I was in induced coma. And I wanted to get up, but I could not. I wanted to feel like I was awake. I wa- I I needed to know that I was alive and I just could not. Um, yeah, but then, you know, the next day I knew that my body had changed forever. I just felt like I could not be the same person anymore.

• 59:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  I became anemic and then I, you know, called for a friend and and she um she helped me then. At the time, I just could not explain to my friends what was happening. I didn't even know if it was normal or not. I did not even know if it was a panic attack or not.

• 1:00:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because it's so jarring.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  It's, it was just, I was like, oh, maybe it's just about me because of what I had experienced. That it was um not something that other people have also experienced in in in in their own way. Um. But I think it was really the friends who helped me in that difficult time. Something like a sleepover. They just came to my room and they said, you don't have to tell us anything. We're gonna just sleep with you tonight in your room. They brought their mattresses, yeah. And but then eventually, one other friend of mine, she um, she said, you need to see a therapist.

• 1:00:53Trevor Noah?

  Huh.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  That was the first time. It was months later. I thought I could.

• 1:00:57Trevor Noah?

  And wait, this was the first time you'd ever gone to a therapist?

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  Yes. I, so in Birmingham, I was receiving all of these medical treatments and from like facial symmetry to like nerve surgery to the hearing implant and all of these things were happening. And then there was a therapist as well. And she was the only person in that whole hospital that I did not like.

• 1:01:21Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  I thought she was asking me too many questions and I just want to like recover. I just want to be able to get up.

• 1:01:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  Why is she asking me about how am I feeling? I said, what's there to talk about feelings right now? That many years later, I I did not know if therapy would be helpful at all. Um. And then my friend said, no, like, we all, like, she said, like, she goes um to see a therapist, she said. And I was like, but you are, she's like, that's not the point.

• 1:01:52Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  Um. We can talk about different issues. You don't know who it's affecting. And then I realized it. So many people were actually seeing therapists. So that was the first time I saw a therapist many, many years later. Um. And it was because of these panic attacks that I realized I have to go and see a therapist. Because in then I felt like I just, I just could not do it. I just could not.

• 1:02:20Trevor Noah?

  When you, when you share that, it um, it reminds me of a conversation we actually had on the podcast with um, a neuroscientist who specializes in trauma.

• 1:02:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Trevor Noah?

  And she taught us something that I'd I'd never known before, which was

• 1:02:35Trevor Noah?

  people who have experienced like an acute trauma, part of their PTSD is their cortisol levels change like the normal, the baseline.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Trevor Noah?

  And where most times in society, I think this was discovered around the nineteen eighties um with the veterans of the Vietnam War.

• 1:02:54Trevor Noah?

  It's that people had sort of depleted their cortisol.

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Trevor Noah?

  And so something could inflame it, something could trigger it, something could bring it back. And the most important thing she said about the trauma and just how we talk about these things is we often assume people should be willing to share their stories when we're willing to hear them.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:12Trevor Noah?

  But the real thing that unlocks it is them meeting a person at the right time, who says the right thing. Often it's a person who's experienced something similar. You find you share a different bond, a different connection, a different, a different way of speaking about it even. That's less sanitized than, you know, sometimes like a strict therapist patient relationship. So it's amazing that you experienced that on the ground. Did you find that the therapy helped?

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  The therapy helped a lot and I fully agree with you. I could not explain it to my parents. I could not explain it to anybody else. I could talk a bit about it to my friends and I think they recognized that I needed them around me.

• 1:03:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 03

  And then they also realized that maybe you also need to see a therapist. The therapist was very helpful. To be honest, in the first session, I thought I'll like explain everything and just throw everything at them and then they'll tell me what's wrong with me and give me some medication and then I'll be

• 1:04:11Trevor Noah?

  This is the car mechanic in you.

• 1:04:12Speaker 03

  Fine, yes.

• 1:04:12Trevor Noah?

  This is

• 1:04:13Speaker 03

  Exactly. I was like, fix the problem.

• 1:04:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 03

  Figure it out and fix the problem. And she was just nodding. I kept talking and she was just nodding and I was like, where is this gonna go?

• 1:04:24Trevor Noah?

  It is, yeah, the first therapy session is always a strange one.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, they keep asking you questions and you're like, let me explain it back to you. But I was like, what's, you know? And then I had a few more sessions with her. I would like write down what I was experiencing. And there were like some good times and I felt normal. And then there were times when like, you know, my body was sweating and

• 1:04:45Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  You know, I could hear my heart beating. And I um I was panicking and like small things could trigger me or or just like make me somehow feel like like I had lost. Uh it's it's really hard to explain these things, you know.

• 1:05:02Trevor Noah?

  No, I I I think I I understand that. I I think of like when I've had to deal in therapy with, you know, my mom who were shot. So my mom was shot in the head by my stepfather and even though I wasn't there, I have images, you know, because my brothers told me the stories and my mom, you know, when I got to the hospital and she was being wheeled into ICU, the image that I have of her is still in my head.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:05:28Trevor Noah?

  And one of the hardest things to try and explain to people is is how your mind is like a carousel.

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Trevor Noah?

  You can't reliably with, you know, retrieve the memory the way you want to. It's spinning. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's there, sometimes. And then sometimes the light hits it in such a way that it really shines

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:05:49Trevor Noah?

  at you in the in the most harsh way. And that's that's when you'll feel a lot of the time what you're not able to feel, you know, like what you said in the in the beginning of our conversation. Many times we can tell the story and sometimes I feel like that's when the carousel is far. And you just tell it. And then sometimes you feel the story and you know, it might be triggered by something random. And I've learned that's where like therapy, especially good therapy, starts to help you bridge those gaps. You know, you start to bridge the gaps between where you were, what you were feeling, who you are and what you're feeling. And and then merging those two worlds into one.

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  A hundred percent agree with you because, you know, I would not have been able to say anything about it a few years ago. And, you know, with the help of therapy and just how my life um took a different trajectory. It was not just the incident and the panic attack, but it was many other things, like the decision to marry or not and what my life would look like after I graduate and I graduated in the pandemic. So it was just a lot of things that were happening that were quite overwhelming. And then I was also worried about my grades if I would actually graduate or not because, you know, I had been skipping a lot of those essays and assignments. Uh so like. I was by the end of the university time, I was quite, um, quite nervous, overwhelmed.

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  Uh, and at the time, you know, I just did not even know if, if I could ever even share it. But when, when I look back and how I have found my way out, um, and, and I have learned so much from it. I wanted to write this book. I wanted to share this story with other people so that it could help somebody out there.

• 1:07:30Trevor Noah?

  Um, yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 03

  And, um, no, it's not just about asking for help, but also being there for people who need help.

• 1:07:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and I think it's important for us to reclaim it as well.

• 1:07:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:07:44Trevor Noah?

  One of the things I realized in, in therapy was a lot of the way we think of therapy now is shaped by the West. You know, and they'll go therapist and therapy. And if you come from South Africa, maybe I'm assuming Pakistan, wherever you're from in the world. A lot of people will say, oh, that's not in my culture. Oh, we don't do that. We don't do. But as I've taken time to learn about different cultures, I've come to realize every single culture, if you look back. You know, either it was erased during colonial times or it's been forgotten, you know. I remember being in Machu Picchu and learning from historians.

• 1:08:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:18Trevor Noah?

  That they had therapy.

• 1:08:19Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:20Trevor Noah?

  Just not the way we think of it now.

• 1:08:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Trevor Noah?

  But every culture has elders.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:24Trevor Noah?

  And every culture will tell you about which elders were supposed to do what.

• 1:08:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:27Trevor Noah?

  And some would even specialize, you know, that there'd be, these are the people you're going to talk to just about being a mother. And they'll help you to be a mother and they'll help you with postpartum depression, whatever it may be. These people will tell you about relationships, this person and, and now it's become commercialized. Unfortunately, unfortunately, I guess in some ways. But there's an element of reclaiming it that I think is very important, you know, cause, cause then again, I find people can go, oh. You westernized now. Oh, what is this therapy thing you're talking about? That's not our, and it's like, no, no, it is our people actually.

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:57Trevor Noah?

  Talking to somebody who can shed perspective and wisdom is exactly part of our cultures.

• 1:09:03Speaker 03

  I do wonder if it's just for people who are in the public eye, who face this pressure that they somehow have to. Pretend that they're living a perfect life and they are not as open about what they actually feel, what's going on there in their mind. That somehow we cannot make a mistake. We cannot just let's a, a thought. Come out or just say something out loud, uh, because when I think about the culture in our village in Pakistan. To me, like, everybody's just being themselves.

• 1:09:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 03

  Nobody.

• 1:09:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Speaker 03

  Cares what you think and how offended you will be. Everybody will tell you how they feel. I have noticed that about my mom as well. She, she will show it to you, not just say it to you.

• 1:09:51Trevor Noah?

  Moms do that, yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 03

  Yes, and, and my dad, you know, out of respect, he's like very passionate about expressing what he thinks should be done and what he thinks is right. And I realized that, that, you know, like, it's, it's not the same, uh, for me at least. That I keep everything to myself. And I do wonder if this is because I was so exposed to media and this outside world watching me, even when I was eleven years old.

• 1:10:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  And I was blogging, I was becoming an activist. I was seen as just like kid in school who is giving speeches and she's a bit smart. So like, I feel like everybody was watching me, even though there was like no camera or nothing. And that's how I have lived my whole life, that sometimes I feel that, you know, that I, I wish there was just less scrutiny and less surveillance and, and that we um, allowed ourselves to express our opinions or thoughts more openly.

• 1:10:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Speaker 03

  Because, as you were saying, like, that's how therapy should technically be, because you say something in front of your friend and your friend is like, well, or like, you know, it didn't sound right, let me explain it to you, or like, well, have you thought about this thing? Or, I fully agree with you, it never occurred to me, wow, I'm hearing this for the first time. It could work either ways and and I wonder if it's affecting more people out there.

• 1:11:15Trevor Noah?

  I think it is.

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  Because of social media, because of how these things work now, that everybody has a TikTok and Instagram profile.

• 1:11:22Trevor Noah?

  I genuinely think it is. I think it is. I think it's a combination of two things, and, and I'm, maybe there's more that I'm missing. But the, the more I've thought about it, you, you know, and to your point, sharing a spotlight.

• 1:11:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:11:33Trevor Noah?

  I've, I've seen every variation of it, you know, people having a spotless image of you, people having a terrible image of you.

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42Trevor Noah?

  I think it's two things that people are experiencing on, on multiple levels, depending on, you know, how prominent you are. The one is, we have more access to each other than we've ever had.

• 1:11:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:11:55Trevor Noah?

  In the history of the world. But at the same time, we have less context than we've ever had for each other in the world. And I think that's a terrible combination of things. You know, I I think to myself, one of the, one of the natural, beautiful occurrences in in the world is how accents and languages evolve. And I think that's, I I speak multiple languages, I love accents. The reason I love them is because they tell you a story. They tell you how people moved. And it's amazing how you can track an accent that starts in one part of the world. And if you move far enough and slowly enough, you see that the accent is still exactly the same.

• 1:12:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Trevor Noah?

  Which, which always blew my mind. It's like, oh, no. An English accent is a Jamaican accent, is an Indian accent, is like, it's depending on which way the journey went. It's just the gradual change that started to soften it, and it provides it context.

• 1:12:46Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:46Trevor Noah?

  And I think without context, we lose everything.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Trevor Noah?

  Like, your friends hold your context. So a friend can say, that's not you.

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:12:54Trevor Noah?

  You know, that's not you at your saddest, that's not you at your angriest, that's not you with, you know, whatever it is, that's not you in your fullest.

• 1:13:02Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:02Trevor Noah?

  And a friend can give you grace, a friend can give you compassion, a friend can. It it's because the person trusts you in your whole, and so they notice the anomalies, which we all have.

• 1:13:11Speaker 03

  Judge you, they don't judge you.

• 1:13:13Trevor Noah?

  That's the big thing.

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  And I love that. They're not cancelling you.

• 1:13:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, no, no, but I, but I think it's, but I think it's because.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  They're there for you regardless.

• 1:13:19Trevor Noah?

  To be fair to society.

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:13:21Trevor Noah?

  It's because they don't have any context.

• 1:13:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Trevor Noah?

  I've, I've literally had people come up to me. I wonder if you've had the same experience. I've had people come up to me. And they've said, often at a live event, you know, one man, um, I was on the road, I was in a place called Springfield, Missouri. And everyone told me, oh, that's Trump country, that's all red, I wonder what it's gonna be like. And I did a show there, had an amazing time, really amazing time. And after the show, I was, I was um, in the town and I was walking around. And this man came up to me and he said, I was sitting like at a little diner in a booth. And he came up and he's like, hey, can I just let you know, my son brought me to your show and. I uh, I didn't like you, I didn't like you, but I had a good time at your show and you're a lot different than I thought you were.

• 1:14:03Trevor Noah?

  Uh. Thank you. And I said, thank you very much. I said, if I may ask, why, what didn't you, why didn't you like me? What? He says, well, I saw a few clips of yours on Facebook and I didn't like what I saw. But, you know, when I came to your show, I was like, wow, you know, I agree with that and I like that. And maybe I don't think that, but, but he saw more. Because I was able to be there with him in person, like this, you know, it's bridging this gap. I think that's important.

• 1:14:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think people on social media are often talking about a conversation about you.

• 1:14:32Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  It's, you are never there.

• 1:14:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  They're like, we think this person said this. And we sure, we are so sure that this person meant this.

• 1:14:40Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:14:41Speaker 03

  We're not gonna look at the context, any of that.

• 1:14:42Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. It's a flattening. It's a complete, complete flattening.

• 1:14:46Speaker 03

  That has happened to me a few times.

• 1:14:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's, I mean, you know, I think, I think it's changing though, to be honest with you. So I, I think I give most of the credits to Gen Z and then I guess Alpha. In that, because they grew up in such surveillance, to borrow your word. They grew up in a world where they were being watched. They were, if you look at the difference in their social media versus millennial social. Millennial social media was all about the filter and make it look good and make it this and make it perfect. And, and then you look at what Gen Z and Alpha did, they went, no, it's vibes. I'm gonna take a blurry picture. I'm gonna take a messy shot. I'm gonna write whatever I'm feeling, then I'll delete it. You know what? This isn't my tombstone. This isn't how I wanna be perceived forever.

• 1:15:28Trevor Noah?

  And even that shift, I think, has brought a little, just a little more parity or, or a little more balance, I think, into the way we see it. I think it'll always be there, but we're, we're moving, you know, we'll see. If they say that about you, you must call me and then I'll, I'll fight for you. I like fighting people online, so.

• 1:15:47Speaker 03

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:15:48Trevor Noah?

  I really do. You know why? Cause I, I also realized at some point, most of it is not real.

• 1:15:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:54Trevor Noah?

  That was the hardest thing.

• 1:15:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:15:55Trevor Noah?

  Is most of it is not real. Most of the hate that people are experiencing of each other is not real. And that's why even when I've met politicians, I'll often say to them, more in the US, you know, than anywhere else where I've, where I've gotten to meet them. As I go, I wish you would spend more time in public, getting along, forget the law.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Trevor Noah?

  But I wish your constituents knew that you have lunches together, that you have dinners together, that you go to each other's birthday parties, that you.

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Trevor Noah?

  Because they don't treat each other the way you do.

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:16:29Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  So true.

• 1:16:30Trevor Noah?

  And so if if you could show them that side of your lives, maybe they would be able to see that side of their lives with each other. And then, not that it would, it doesn't become like utopia, but you know.

• 1:16:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. In my interactions with real people, I have like rarely come across um an experience where I felt a person was disrespectful or they um you know, were sounding like a troll, like that.

• 1:16:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:57Speaker 03

  That hardly, rarely, like it doesn't happen. So from the very start, I knew that I cannot assume that what I see on social media is reflective of the world out there. For whatever reason, I'm like, it could be the same person, but I know they won't treat me the same way if they meet me in person.

• 1:17:14Trevor Noah?

  That's true, yeah.

• 1:17:15Speaker 03

  So I think, you know, we need to, I feel like this uh connection more in the real world is is important, meeting each other, seeing each other, because it makes us feel more human and it's not like these fixed objects that we see on social media. And we have such a fixed opinion about them and, yeah, the world of social media is crazy. Just six months before my marriage, I had an interview with British Vogue, which was released because, you know, I was like on the cover and everything and the journalist had asked me many questions about what I was thinking I had about life. And at that time, I had no plans and I was still in COVID time, a recent graduate,

• 1:17:57Speaker 03

  figuring out if I wanted to get married or not, because I had like a billion questions about marriage as an institution and all of that. So in the interview, somehow I said, oh, like, why do we have to get married? Why can't it just be like a partnership and just two people living together? Why is this like this complicated concept of marriage? And when that piece came out, there was this huge backlash that.

• 1:18:22Speaker 03

  People eventually were saying that Malala is against marriage and then they said nikah. So nikah is the religious Islamic ceremony.

• 1:18:31Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:18:32Speaker 03

  They made it so specific that Malala is advocating against this religious practice, which is like so important for, you know, for us, for Muslims or Pakistanis. And like when you look back at the whole interview, you like, you don't see it. Like, it's not that I have said that I'm against it.

• 1:18:53Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  Think nobody should be doing that. There's none of that. But nobody was, the people who were making that claim were not going to the article.

• 1:19:03Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, they don't.

• 1:19:05Speaker 03

  And you realize that, you know, this is, these are narratives that, you know, one person ignites it, they create that spark and then everybody else is like, this is a wonderful opportunity. We had been looking for it. Like, let's distribute it. Let's share it. So this, there is a bit of that danger with social media because by the time you explain yourself.

• 1:19:23Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, it's gone.

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  It's too late, it's gone. So I remember again, like my mom and dad were disappointed with me.

• 1:19:30Trevor Noah?

  It's the genes, first the genes and now this.

• 1:19:33Speaker 03

  Now this, they're like, can you just, and my mom actually said, my mom was like, I wish you had never spoken.

• 1:19:38Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 1:19:39Speaker 03

  And it, it broke my heart. I was really sad, but it also made me angry that why do I have to somehow sound all perfect? If I repeat my lines, I might clarify it a bit.

• 1:19:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 03

  But it, you know, like, why, why can't I be a normal twenty-three-year-old who is just confused about marriage? Why can't I question it? I can't just pretend like I have figured out everything and I have all the answers. And if I'm suddenly put on the spot and asked about marriage, of course, I'm going to say, marriage? What? Who's getting married? Me? Why do you have to get married? That's exactly how I felt. I thought she like caught me red-handed.

• 1:20:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, she like threw a curveball at you, yeah, in that moment.

• 1:20:21Speaker 03

  Um, but you know, after that interview was out. I was still thinking about Assar, who's now my husband and I was, you know, like, there were many moments in which I realized how he was the right person and the perfect person for me.

• 1:20:35Trevor Noah?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:20:36Speaker 03

  Because in that moment, he was so calm. He actually explained it to my parents why they should not push me to release a statement in defense. He talked to them.

• 1:20:47Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 1:20:47Speaker 03

  And when we spent some time together, I realized that we actually have the best time. All these questions I have about marriage and, you know, this being an institution historically that has oppressed women and it's patriarchal. And, you know, women make more compromises. When they make this decision, like, how much do they lose on the way in terms of their career and how maternity affects them? Or like, you know, is this guy gonna turn out to be a good guy after we get married or? And I spent some time with him and I knew he was the right one. But when I think back, I do not regret it for a second. That I had a billion questions about marriage and I took my time.

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  And I asked him all those silly questions as much as I could. Because um this is a reality.

• 1:21:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:37Speaker 03

  That women and girls go through. And I had like everything, I I had a platform, a career, I could make money, I. You know, what was I, why was I so scared of it? I was an advocate for girls' rights, like, I knew my rights. I knew women's rights.

• 1:21:53Trevor Noah?

  And now here you were.

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  And somehow I was scared, I felt like I was gonna lose something.

• 1:21:57Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 1:21:57Speaker 03

  Lose something and um and, you know, when I got married, I realized, wow, like, it feels quite normal, like, I'm still the same person, nothing has changed. Or like, you know, something like, I'm like, I'm watching you, you know, you're my husband, but we're just friends.

• 1:22:15Speaker 03

  I still joke with him, I'm like, you know, it's just, we're husband and wife to the world outside, but we're just friends, not just kidding.

• 1:22:21Trevor Noah?

  No, but I love.

• 1:22:22Speaker 03

  We are, we are friends, we are best friends.

• 1:22:25Trevor Noah?

  We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break.

• 1:22:30Trevor Noah?

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• 1:23:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, one of my favorite YouTube Premium features is Smart Downloads. Because how many times have you gone somewhere and realized, "Ugh, I forgot to download anything!" And now you're on the way to the airport and you're like, "Download, download, download, download." You're on the plane, "Download, download, download, download." There's no Wi-Fi. "I wish I downloaded!" Now, all of those things that you were gonna watch are just on the internet. Smart Downloads basically thinks ahead for you. It automatically downloads recommended videos based on what you like to watch, so even when you forget to prepare, YouTube Premium didn't. I love it. It's like packing for a trip and discovering somebody already remembered the thing you always leave at home. It's always the underwear. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium.

• 1:24:00Trevor Noah?

  Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

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• 1:24:39Trevor Noah?

  So this is what I enjoy is, you know, you even talk about this and it's beautiful to read is

• 1:24:49Trevor Noah?

  the, it's like, it's like the nitty gritty, it's the non-airbrushed, it's the, it's the human. You know, it's just the human that we all are. No one, I think most people wouldn't think of like Malala having a crush. Most people wouldn't think of Malala being insecure or wondering about what love is or what love isn't. Like people wouldn't have these things. I've experienced like in different ways because everyone paints a picture of you when they paint a picture. I remember telling someone once, oh yeah, and I didn't have anyone who would go to prom with me in South Africa. It was the Matric dance. People were like, oh, you're lying, you just say, and I was like, oh, you have an image of me in this moment in time.

• 1:25:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:28Trevor Noah?

  You weren't with me for any of the insecurities or the journeys that I've been on.

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  I had a question for you.

• 1:25:34Trevor Noah?

  Oh yeah, shoot.

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  Did you ever speak to Zahira?

• 1:25:39Trevor Noah?

  Again?

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Like recently, yeah.

• 1:25:41Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Like never?

• 1:25:43Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 1:25:44Speaker 03

  Did it ever feel like you should or?

• 1:25:47Trevor Noah?

  Hmm, so it's a tough one.

• 1:25:50Speaker 03

  Like, do you know where she is?

• 1:25:51Trevor Noah?

  No, I don't, I don't. I remember, I remember when I was towards the end of high school, a friend said that her family had moved to the US and something. You know, this is, this is a complicated thing that I, I love grappling within life.

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:09Trevor Noah?

  Is that, is there's a difference between the feeling and the reality? Right? Oftentimes in life, we are chasing the feeling of something. And because the story has been told to us, we assume that that feeling exists within a reality. So just to give people perspective, I mean, you know it, but.

• 1:26:32Trevor Noah?

  In high school, I was an absolute proud loser. I was a nerd. I spent more time with my computer and my video games than with people. But I I I got along and I got, you know, there were people that I've made friends with in school. But I and and I was very lucky that, you know, later on, like Brian became like my best friend. And I but I had a very small tight knit group. And one of the people who was really nice to me was a girl named Zahira. All right, so Zahira and her friend Joanna, right? They were really, really nice to me. And Zahira was one of the most beautiful, beautiful girls in school.

• 1:27:04Speaker 03

  I read it in your book.

• 1:27:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I just, I mean, it was true. She just, but what what made her more beautiful was her kindness, her vibe. She was nice. She, some people, male and female, only smiled at the popular kids, you know? She smiled at everyone. She she got along with everyone. She it and and I remember and she talked to me and I remember being like, wow, this is the most amazing thing. And I always thought to myself, I would love to ask her to be my girlfriend, which was a crazy. I'd never had a girlfriend. It was it was this terrifying thought. And then, as I say in the book, I never did. And then one day she just didn't come to school. Her parents had left the country and that was it.

• 1:27:49Trevor Noah?

  There's no social media in that way and it was, you know? Now, the thing that I hold on to is, A, the lesson, as I shared. It was one of the moments in life where I went, try to avoid regrets.

• 1:28:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:02Trevor Noah?

  You know, regret is an unanswered question.

• 1:28:05Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:05Trevor Noah?

  You'll always wonder, what if, what if, what if? Rejection is a bruise. You know, you'll feel it. We, I'm not gonna lie to anybody, you'll feel rejection, you know? There's nothing worse than the unrequited love or the friend that didn't, you know, whatever it is. But the the regret is the what if? It's the it's the infinite what if? So that's the first thing. The second thing I hold on to is the idea. And that is, like, why would I contact the person? I would contact them because I have an idea in my head that that person holds this piece of a happiness that maybe I will attain if I find them again.

• 1:28:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:28:47Trevor Noah?

  But I then realized, even in this moment in time, I have the happiness because I'm experiencing it. I just think it's going to be there. And so the analogy I use with my friends often is I go, why is it that all boys grow up wanting a Ferrari? But they've never been in one. Like genuinely, you know, and not to, not to um reduce a person to a vehicle. But I just think of like the images and it's a simple one.

• 1:29:11Trevor Noah?

  Boys grow into men who dream of a Ferrari. Why? You've never been in one. You've never owned one. You've never, I want a Ferrari. I want a Ferrari. It's like, why? Ah, because then I'll, because then I'll what? And over time, if you're lucky enough, either you do experience it, it is or it isn't what you thought. But even without it, you you can realize you've never been in it. And yet you truly believe that it's going to make you happy. And if you envision yourself in it, you even become happy. Then it's not the Ferrari you want. It's the idea of the Ferrari that makes you happy.

• 1:29:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:41Trevor Noah?

  And if you can try pursue that feeling, you can find it in your friends, putting their mattresses in your dorm room.

• 1:29:47Speaker 03

  Anywhere, yeah.

• 1:29:48Trevor Noah?

  You you you truly, and I know sometimes people like, oh, that sounds like. But I I won't lie to to your to your stories of like running on rooftops and going shopping and late night conversations. That's the thing that I think we need to hold on to more is the idea and the understanding of the feeling that's behind the idea. Not just the idea itself. So no, I never, I never reached out. I never did. But I'm glad, I'm glad, I'm glad you, you know, I'm glad you didn't regret. Like you pursued love, you you stepped out.

• 1:30:18Speaker 03

  But you know, Asser was not my first love. Um, I had a crush before Asser. And this was before I had met Asser. So, you know, just to disclose.

• 1:30:29Trevor Noah?

  No, no clipping internet. Don't worry. We'll, it's in full. No clipping.

• 1:30:34Speaker 03

  But it was a similar thing that.

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  This guy Tarek was this mysterious boy in college.

• 1:30:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:43Speaker 03

  And there was not much that I knew about him, but I knew he was cool because there were secrets about him. And he was that guy who gets in trouble. And somehow I thought maybe I could fix him.

• 1:30:58Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:30:59Speaker 03

  I would ask him questions like, why are you, you know, why are you upset? Then he would complain about the essays and the tutors. And I said, why is nobody helping you? I think we have to talk to your tutors. Let me bring this up to the principal. And he said, nah, man, it's just, you know, it's just.

• 1:31:18Trevor Noah?

  Bad boy, Tarek.

• 1:31:20Speaker 03

  Bad boy. And yeah, like he would just come to my room and eat bananas and any snacks and then leave. But for me, I knew that I could not be with Tarek. Tarek was just an idea. It was that feeling.

• 1:31:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  And was never even gonna become real. I, and I did not even know why I was chasing him because at the time I didn't wanna get married or I didn't wanna have a boyfriend or any of that, like.

• 1:31:50Trevor Noah?

  Was that because, what, what, what was that?

• 1:31:53Speaker 03

  I was still new in college.

• 1:31:55Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 1:31:55Speaker 03

  It was so overwhelming, like I was still fighting for my right to wear jeans. I was not gonna think about a guy. And with Tarek, I knew it's like this, but there's something about him that I'm somehow chasing him. And in the end, he disappears from college because, you know, he's that boy who gets in trouble and, and you know, he's that bad boy somehow. But I just, I just love that I had that experience where I felt like I was a part of something. I did not really cross the line, but I was in it. I don't know, somehow. It just, it just was my first love experience that was truly one-sided.

• 1:32:37Trevor Noah?

  We all need those, I feel like, at some point.

• 1:32:39Speaker 03

  It was just this idea. I was trying to like feel it and yeah, I was just from from a distance. It was all an imagination. And sometimes I feel like it was a dream. And then I meet Assar, who, you know, I'm like, wow, he's also handsome. Let's consider him.

• 1:32:57Trevor Noah?

  That's beautiful. You know, you know what? I love that you say it's like a dream and it's an imagination. But I think that's what it is. It's a powerful imagination. And the older I've gotten, the more I've realized it's an imagination that we have of ourselves.

• 1:33:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:11Trevor Noah?

  That's one of the most complicated things to learn about like love in those moments or the idea that we have of the love. Is that that person is either seeing us or allowing us to feel seen in a way that we haven't before. Or in a way that we feel good or feel comfortable and feel and and there's something beautiful in that like. Do you know what I mean? It's just like you imagining yourself, because again, to your point, it hasn't happened.

• 1:33:36Speaker 03

  I wanted to be the main character.

• 1:33:37Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:33:38Speaker 03

  I thought it was a movie and I had watched so many Indian movies and TV dramas. That for me was that moment that there's this mysterious guy. It's it's it's a typical story. Who's not looking at you, but he is the one because he's not looking at you.

• 1:33:55Trevor Noah?

  This is so amazing.

• 1:33:56Speaker 03

  And he's good looking and all of that, but you know, I don't want to use rude words, but you know, A S S H O L E.

• 1:34:04Trevor Noah?

  Oh asshole, I'll say it for you. I can be a rude word sayer. Yeah.

• 1:34:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, sort of like that guy.

• 1:34:09Trevor Noah?

  Whenever you need to say that word, you just call me and I'll pop up there and be like asshole.

• 1:34:14Speaker 03

  So, you know, at the time, I I didn't I did not know if I would be loved by somebody. I could not love myself either, but that was just the first time that I was feeling something. What I thought, maybe in imagination. There are no rules and it's okay for me to have a crush on this guy. And to be curious about his life and sort of follow him around, check on him. Does he need any help? Get him biscuits and tea and whatever he needs. But he did not want my help, to be honest, other than the food. He was a boy.

• 1:34:50Trevor Noah?

  Tarik just wanted bananas.

• 1:34:52Speaker 03

  Just always in trouble and then he disappeared.

• 1:34:55Trevor Noah?

  When you when you thought of yourself in love or being loved.

• 1:35:02Trevor Noah?

  Was it ever difficult to bridge the gap between who you saw yourself as? And who everyone else thought you were?

• 1:35:13Trevor Noah?

  Like, how do you love a saint?

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:15Trevor Noah?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:35:16Speaker 03

  I think I wanted that person to not see me as a saint.

• 1:35:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  I wanted that person to

• 1:35:25Speaker 03

  see me for who I was and

• 1:35:30Speaker 03

  Assar, from the start, never received me as the Malala or as the girl he had heard about somewhere. He never even asked me a single question. I think even to this day, like, we never talk about what happened and what was life like in Swat Valley. And, um, you know, he read my book, I think, around the wedding time or after that. Just to catch up on the story because I

• 1:35:56Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no.

• 1:35:57Speaker 03

  I feel like he thought my dad asked, might ask him questions, so, uh, you know, for him, it just didn't matter.

• 1:36:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:04Speaker 03

  For him, he, he saw the Malala that was in front of him and she was growing. She was learning, she was still asking questions and she was still figuring things out. Like, he accepted me for who I was and who I was becoming.

• 1:36:24Speaker 03

  That was really, uh, life-changing because even now, I don't feel like I have to be this like fixed version of me. We're so open with each other, we giggle, we laugh, I can be so silly with him. I'm truly like myself. I, I don't think twice when I say something in front of him. That's the best thing. It, it's not about like, oh, am I hurting your feelings or something? And, and you're not hurting your feelings, like somehow you just, you know, how to look after each other, how to keep each other happy and, um, and even like, and because he's just like so amazing that sometimes even if I am like upset about something, it's just so minute. But for him.

• 1:37:09Speaker 03

  He cannot see me upset, so he will take it very seriously. He'll just like stop everything and he said, let's resolve the issue. And I'm like, no, it's fine. It's not a big deal. No, nothing is going on. No, I'm fine. We'll, you know, just talk about it later. And he's like, no, tell me what happened. And I think one time I told him that when he drinks his like protein shake.

• 1:37:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:35Speaker 03

  He sort of leaves the glass and then I pick it up and I rinse it. So I was like, this is a big deal. Why do I have to rinse your glass? And I was like, patriarchy, man, all of these things.

• 1:37:46Speaker 03

  I was like, I'm advocating for girls' rights. I do not want to be an advocate at home. You know, imagine like you're fighting a battle and then suddenly you're like, I have to fix the guy at home too. So I was like, no, nothing. And then I was like, well, you know, my mom was here as well. And like, I just felt so much pressure and I thought like. It's not that it was just us two. I felt like people were watching us as well and I thought they were judging us like.

• 1:38:12Speaker 03

  And he was like, oh, you know, it's like, well, we split work. Like, you know, you do the dishwasher, but I do the clothes washing and I do the laundry and all of that. And I was like, yeah, you kind of do a lot more things than me. That's true. But there's something about the dishes and it's just like my mom also like noticed it. And then he said, like, yeah, sort of like, you're right. Yeah, of course I should like, you know, pick up the dishes. Whatever I use and put them in the dishwasher. Like that point onwards, it's been like two, three years now. I have never seen him like leave his glass. Yeah.

• 1:38:52Trevor Noah?

  I mean, then the human rights speech worked.

• 1:38:54Speaker 03

  You know, it's just me being upset that work, just making, you know, it a big drama.

• 1:38:59Trevor Noah?

  Little bit of drama goes a long way.

• 1:39:01Speaker 03

  I wish I could do the same outside, like hundred twenty-two million girls out of school. What are you guys doing? I'm not going to talk to you.

• 1:39:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, just drama.

• 1:39:10Speaker 03

  This is what I want to tell leaders. Why would you not invest in girls' education? Why would you not put money in there when you know the benefits are exponential? It will improve economies. It will reduce poverty. It will help tackle climate change. It will. Help create a better, safer future. Why is it that one hundred and twenty million girls do not have the right to be in school?

• 1:39:38Trevor Noah?

  What do they say to you when you ask them these questions?

• 1:39:42Speaker 03

  I think it's the same old thing, like in the last five years, we have committed more than

• 1:39:48Trevor Noah?

  Oh, committed.

• 1:39:49Speaker 03

  this many million dollars.

• 1:39:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, committed.

• 1:39:51Speaker 03

  And we are committed more than ever.

• 1:39:54Trevor Noah?

  Pledging and committing, yeah.

• 1:39:56Speaker 03

  And we know that there's a huge gap in funding for education. Climate-related events, these wars and conflicts are worsening it.

• 1:40:06Speaker 03

  Afghanistan is the most extreme case because when the Taliban took power in uh four years ago, they immediately announced a ban on girls' education.

• 1:40:15Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:15Speaker 03

  Girls are not allowed to be in school beyond grade six. Women cannot be in universities. Women cannot work, they cannot be in the parliament, they cannot play sports, they cannot go see a doctor without a male chaperon. They cannot visit a park, they cannot even speak loudly when they are inside their houses. That's how much the Taliban are controlling the lives of women, from their voices to how they're dressed to their movement. It is like the most systemic oppressive regime that the women are living under right now. And it's painful to see it happening every day.

• 1:40:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:54Speaker 03

  Very painful to see it. And the Afghan women are like living it um and uh but in this time, when I think about the bravery and the courage of the Afghan women who are standing up to the Taliban and they want to like reclaim the old lives they had. It's not that these, you know, women had a uh were sort of used to this culture. No, they had fought really hard for their right to be working, to be in school. And the Taliban just suddenly took all of that away from them. Afghan activists are calling it a gender apartheid, that this is systemic oppression in which women are oppressed simply based on their gender. If they were born a boy, they would have a different life.

• 1:41:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:37Speaker 03

  But they are born a girl, they cannot be in school, they cannot imagine to work. And it's the Taliban who are determining their lives and restricting them to the four walls of their houses.

• 1:41:50Speaker 03

  They are erasing women from public life in any political participation. They're literally erasing women. And and they're punishing women for disobeying any of these rules. That's the most important thing because people often think that gender discrimination is a problem in a lot of countries and in in the global south or that, you know, these things happen. It's culture, it's this and that. And I'm not saying that that is not a reality. Of course, that is, and things weren't perfect for women and and girls in Afghanistan before the Taliban. But what's different under the Taliban regime is that it is systemic.

• 1:42:30Speaker 03

  The people who are supposed to protect civilians, the people who are supposed to give justice to women and girls are the ones who are the perpetrators. They are committing the crimes. It is systemic crime where they are abusing their power. And in cases like these, where do the women go? Because they can't seek justice from the Taliban.

• 1:42:51Trevor Noah?

  There's no one.

• 1:42:52Speaker 03

  The Taliban police are the ones who are arresting them for simply daring to learn or go to a secret school or protest or simply go to work. So many of these households are run by women. Women are the are the breadwinners and the Taliban just do not allow them to work. So it's a very difficult place for for women right now, but I'm always inspired by their resilience and their courage and how they're fighting back. The activists who are in exile are doing advocacy globally from codifying gender apartheid to bringing women's issues to the stage to also pushing for the inclusion of women and girls on the agenda where any peace talks and dialogues are happening, to also women

• 1:43:37Speaker 03

  being present in those rooms where decisions about the future of Afghanistan are made.

• 1:43:42Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:43:43Speaker 03

  And at the same time, they are like running projects in the country as well. So at Malala Fund, we are supporting both. We are giving grants to organizations who are putting pressure on leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. And at the same time, we're also giving grants to organizations who are providing alternative education from radios to television to underground schools to like offline and online platforms. We're we're using everything that we can to keep girls learning as many as we can.

• 1:44:12Trevor Noah?

  I I can't help but wonder, as you're saying that. You know, oftentimes, when we are told these stories, if you live in a country like the United States or the UK, or you know, any of the more powerful nations, oftentimes, it sounds like people are saying, well, invade, or you know, it swings between two worlds. Either fully come in with a militarized force, or do nothing. It's a binary that reduces the solution down to only two, when it feels like it could be more nuanced. So when you're looking at the situation, you know, you're talking to activists and you're talking to advocates, what are some of the things you think world leaders could actually be doing, beyond going in and then just, you know, creating more war and more turmoil?

• 1:44:58Speaker 03

  I think for me, it was never about whether the military should have stayed there forever, or...

• 1:45:05Speaker 03

  For me, it was about how they left.

• 1:45:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:45:09Speaker 03

  And in what state they left the country. They did not give power to the local people. I think the US just suddenly brought the Taliban out of nowhere to these peace talks, like so-called peace talks. The Taliban had little control. And suddenly, the US was like, we're gonna leave and we're gonna bring you back, so we can negotiate with you. Like, negotiate on what? And Afghan women and girls were not included, their issues were not really brought up, they were pushed aside. And what's happening in Afghanistan is because of what the Taliban are doing right now. But I think the countries who let that happen, and who are still silent and looking away, are also complicit.

• 1:45:55Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:55Speaker 03

  They should also be held accountable. And that's why I think that campaigns like codifying gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity Treaty, or just like really questioning our international law is important, because like when such horrible things happen, like, you know, I think about the girls. I'm like, is anybody thinking about them? Why are the Taliban getting away with it for years? And somehow, we are still saying if and but, and this and that. And leaders are sometimes just issuing a statement saying, yes, Afghan women deserve a better future. And and and that's it, they don't do anything.

• 1:46:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  They're not putting any pressure on the Taliban, they are, some countries are even normalizing their relationships with Afghanistan.

• 1:46:45Trevor Noah?

  Oh wow, I didn't know that.

• 1:46:47Speaker 03

  And and and the women are still, even in the last UN talks between the Taliban and the UN representatives in Doha, Afghan women and girls were excluded.

• 1:47:01Speaker 03

  That was twenty twenty four.

• 1:47:04Speaker 03

  I had a call with the um with the UN Secretary General and I highlighted this, that we cannot decide the future of Afghan women when they are not present in the rooms. They are half of the population. Anything that's decided about the future of Afghanistan is also about their futures. So they must be included. Um I think it's, you know, it's about solidarity and support for each other. We need to share more empathy, we need to share their stories and sometimes we feel helpless, you know. What can we do? I think there are options out there from supporting the Afghan activists to their organizations or

• 1:47:45Speaker 03

  asking your representatives and and your governments about what they're doing um and

• 1:47:54Speaker 03

  it but sometimes it's just simply sharing their stories. Simply paying attention to like or just stopping for a second and and learning about what's happening in Afghanistan is a form of solidarity.

• 1:48:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I think it's it's providing a complexity and a human side to a statistic. You know, so that it's not just a statistic. If if if anything, that's that's one of the lessons that I learned from reading, you know, your book now is it reminded me that we all have an obligation, in a beautiful way, by the way, you know, not not as like a task, but in a beautiful way, to think of ourselves as the people we're trying to help.

• 1:48:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:33Trevor Noah?

  You know, and it actually it actually made me wonder if. Your journey, you know, the Malala who goes to Birmingham, the Malala who then goes and studies in Oxford, the Malala who starts an organization, the Malala who falls in love, who gets married. As, as you got to explore and, and um, you know, flesh out these parts of yourselves as fully as you have, do you think that's reinvigorated your, your fight? Do you think that's made you wanna go back even more? Because it's, it shows you how much more there is to fight for?

• 1:49:08Speaker 03

  I think I started my journey as an activist, as an idealist. And that's partly because I was very young when I became an activist. Now, I'm twenty eight and I have experienced so much more than when I was eleven or fifteen. And that visionary, optimistic child Malala is, is still in there. But I feel there's a bit more cynical and skeptical Malala. Who has also seen rejections, rejections we always remember. Who has seen setbacks, how the whole country of Afghanistan can be

• 1:49:51Speaker 03

  a, a place for women and girls where they do not have any rights. They suddenly become second-class citizens. To seeing how still we are so behind on creating a world where every child can be in school and can have the opportunity to learn.

• 1:50:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:07Speaker 03

  Like it's, it should be a right. Nobody should be in any way limited in learning. It's the simple right to like be able to read a book, write.

• 1:50:17Trevor Noah?

  It's crazy that it's even considered a luxury in many ways.

• 1:50:20Speaker 03

  You know, just if you think about it, and I know with technology, things are changing and it's a different story in like developed countries, but I'm like, whatever you wanna call it, online or homeschooling or whatever you wanna call it. That debate is separate, but it's just this right to learn. And to see how many millions of girls and children are denied this right is shocking. Like, we're still living in this time, we are making progress on so many things and still we are leaving like this, this generation of children um, without an education. So I think that's like, it's the foundation, it's the foundation of who we become and what opportunities we can have in life.

• 1:51:01Speaker 03

  It's a step towards, progress is a step towards more prosperous um economy and there's so many benefits and for me it's, you know, it's like the reality of the world we're living in right now that with an education, I believe, girls can make decisions about their life and they can choose their own future. That's the most important thing.

• 1:51:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:24Speaker 03

  We cannot let them be in a place where their future is decided by somebody else.

• 1:51:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, let them be the main characters in their stories.

• 1:51:30Speaker 03

  Or their culture or whoever it is, elders or whatever that is. It's them making those choices for themselves without pressure, without judgment, um that they can be free souls.

• 1:51:41Trevor Noah?

  I really love that and I appreciate you sharing that. I um, I think that was, that was my favorite takeaway and it, it sort of ties everything up perfectly. You know, when I read the book, you know, some of the main themes I thought of was one, we should never take for granted the power and value of belonging.

• 1:52:00Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:52:01Trevor Noah?

  For ourselves in our lives, for the communities we're in, for the societies we build, you know, for refugees, for immigrants, like nobody doesn't want to be where they're from. Nobody doesn't want to be with their people.

• 1:52:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:52:13Trevor Noah?

  And if we remember that, we then try and make sure that their worlds are better so that they can be in their world instead of fighting with them coming into our world. And then the other one that, that I, I really enjoyed you sharing is that it's always a work in progress, you know, it's like we, we find you at this moment in time as Malala and we'll find you at another moment in time in the future and we'll find, but in the same way, you as a person are, are, are, you know, a work in progress. All of these issues, life is a work in progress. We're still, we're still trying to figure it out. We're still trying to, you know, we'll see. Do we want to wear jeans or do we not want to wear jeans? You know, we'll, we'll figure it out as we go. So, yeah, I appreciate you sharing it. Thank you.

• 1:52:51Speaker 03

  For me, I, I see a sense of belonging in a very different way than I used to. I thought it was always about the place where you were born, where you spent your childhood. And now with time, I'm realizing that I have actually spent a lot more time outside Pakistan

• 1:53:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:06Speaker 03

  than I have inside Pakistan. But that strong bond and connection with the country where I was born can never be taken away.

• 1:53:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:15Speaker 03

  Even if I spend the rest of my life somewhere on Mars, it can never be taken away. I feel like a part of me belongs to that soil, to that air, like, like I'm there, like my soul is somehow there.

• 1:53:29Trevor Noah?

  It is, but it is, I genuinely believe that it is.

• 1:53:31Speaker 03

  And when I visited my, my parents' village, Shangla, where we had built a school and I wanted to visit that school and just see the girls, like the first class that were graduating. But I also saw the graveyard of my grandmother, Abai, who was so dear to me and I just could not imagine losing her because I thought she was somebody who was praying for me all the time. I felt safe when she was there. And when she was gone, I immediately felt that something had gone missing in my life.

• 1:54:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:01Speaker 03

  But when I visited her grave, I realized that she was there. She was there in, in the air. And, and, and I just felt her presence and I felt her prayers. Um, but now like I'm, I'm, I'm traveling, I am spending time with my friends, with my husband. And I don't find that home and belonging, uh, just in the places, in the locations where I am, but it's among the people.

• 1:54:28Trevor Noah?

  It's the idea.

• 1:54:30Speaker 03

  It's, it's with my siblings, that little fight that we have, the argument. It's with my mom and dad. It's with my husband when we are just binge watching a TV show. It's everywhere where I meet incredible girls, activists who give me hope, who inspire me. And whose work is really changing the world for, for people out there. I always have this sense of relief and happiness in my heart when I see the work of other people and I know they're doing so much more that we don't see, that we don't hear about. But they are changing the lives of people, they are changing their communities and, um, and, you know.

• 1:55:17Speaker 03

  And I feel safer and I feel happier when I see that world. And I think, you know, we should always like hold hands together and be in solidarity with each other. And I just, for me, ideally, like, this whole globe should be our home, you know, that we are more friendly and more, we're nicer to each other, kinder to each other.

• 1:55:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. As my, my brother says it the best way, he says, whenever you, whenever you feel skeptical and you feel like the whole world is going the wrong way, which it can in many times, he always says, go outside and touch grass.

• 1:55:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:47Trevor Noah?

  Just go outside, touch grass, you'll see somebody else on that grass, and that might be the beginning of a new friendship.

• 1:55:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:53Trevor Noah?

  And so I, I appreciate you for that. Thank you. Thank you for joining me here.

• 1:55:56Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 1:55:57Trevor Noah?

  Thank you for inspiring me, but also reminding me that you're not only inspirational. I like that. I like to know that you're flawed, because it makes me feel a little better about myself.

• 1:56:05Speaker 03

  Oh, you're welcome.

• 1:56:06Trevor Noah?

  Thank you so much, Malala.

• 1:56:11Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:56:11Trevor Noah?

  This is great.

• 1:56:17Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduf. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.

• 1:56:45Trevor Noah?

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