Advice Line with Scott Tannen of Boll & Branch and Jamie Siminoff of Ring (2025)

CEO and co-founder of Boll & Branch, Scott Tannen joins Ring founder Jamie Siminoff and Guy on the Advice Line to answer questions from three early-stage entrepreneurs. Plus, Jamie and Guy talk about how creating repeat customers often comes from creating social good. First, we hear from Melita in Toronto who's wondering whether to continue bootstrapping her organic clothing business. Then Eric in the Sunshine State asks which direction to take to grow his sunscreen apparel lines. And Chris in Alpine Meadows, California, is trying to figure out how to get his sleek binoculars into the hands of more people. Thank you to the founders of Q for Quinn, L Cubed Lifestyle, and Nocs Provisions. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And be sure to listen to the story of how Jamie founded Ring https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/af1fddb0-fa8c-4848-ab50-c320f535dc3b/embed from our episode back in 2020, as well as his appearance on the Advice Line https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/2dbaee58-b2b1-4d3b-bef1-c531a8f19d60/embed in 2024.. And how Scott and his wife Missy started Boll & Branch https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/b01e46da-54e5-4dd0-a45b-3f129d6be37e/embed, a story they told on the show in 2024. This episode was produced by J. C. Howard with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Follow How I Built This: Instagram → @howibuiltthis https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ X → @HowIBuiltThis https://x.com/howibuiltthis Facebook → How I Built This https://www.facebook.com/howibuiltthis Follow Guy Raz: Instagram → @guy.raz https://www.instagram.com/guy.raz/ Youtube →guy_raz https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNSfrxNEmCruNtjIzxCBHjg X → @guyraz https://x.com/guyraz Substack →https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/guyraz.substack.com__;!! Iwwt! RZoD751oWzUzoqqdJiqaoL6HdJfRHDUO1TKvYJ424d3Udn7-Pw9Nj6nEsauh9zcgEvLjUEc$guyraz.substack.com http://guyraz.substack.com/ Website →https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/guyraz.substack.com__;!! Iwwt! RZoD751oWzUzoqqdJiqaoL6HdJfRHDUO1TKvYJ424d3Udn7-Pw9Nj6nEsauh9zcgEvLjUEc$guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 0:20Guy Raz?

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• 2:25Guy Raz?

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• 3:55Guy Raz?

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• 4:41Guy Raz?

  Hey, everyone. So this week, we're revisiting one of our favorite episodes of The Advice Line. It's the episode with the founder of Bull and Branch, Scott Tannen, and the founder of Ring, Jamie Simonoff, who actually both went to high school together. And actually, next week, Jamie will also be joining me on a very special 10th anniversary episode of How I Built This. It's been 10 years, and we've got a really, really cool look back to celebrate a decade of the show and the hundreds of stories we've had a chance to share with you. So look out for that. But for now, this episode of Jamie and Scott is a really fun one. It first ran in December of 2025, and I hope you enjoy it.

• 5:22Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges each week. I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. This week, I'm joined by two founders, Scott Tannen of Bull and Branch and Jamie Siminoff of Ring, back on The Advice Line. Scott, Jamie, it's great to have both of you back on the show.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Thanks for having us. Great to be here.

• 6:04Guy Raz?

  So Jamie, you were first on How I Built This back in 2020. You've already been on Advice Line, so you are a double alum. And Scott, you were on the show in 2024. And as always, if you guys haven't heard those episodes, we will put a link to them in the show notes. Really great episodes. Jamie, you built the incredible Ring Doorbell, which is now an entire home security system that you sold to Amazon, and now you are back running it. We'll get to that in a sec. And Scott, you and your wife, Missy, founded the bedding and linens brand Bull and Branch. It's such an awesome brand. And the reason why we have both of you on the show together, because people are like, why are you having these two guys? It's weird, like bedding sheets and Ring Systems? Like, what is up with that? Well, it's because both of these guys went to high school together.

• 6:48Guy Raz?

  They asked if they could come back on together to do an Advice Line, right? You guys met in high school.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  We did. And Jamie actually drove me to school, so I've been riding his coattails ever since.

• 6:58Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  And not only that, I mean, the class was like 60 kids. So it's just like wild that like this tiny little school in New Jersey, and one of the people comes out and is a hugely successful sheets guy. It's incredible.

• 7:09Guy Raz?

  And neither of you guys had, like, you would not put your money on either of you guys in high school. You'd be like, these are the horses that are going to win the race.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  We were the least two you would have bet on. I'd say myself, but definitely at the bottom. I think Scott was maybe in the middle, but yeah, we're definitely low on the list.

• 7:25Guy Raz?

  Your teachers, Jamie, were like, all right, there he is, like, taking apart a radio again and like not paying attention. And Scott, they were like, I don't know how this kid's getting into Vanderbilt.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  There was no reason I got into Vanderbilt. I got rejected, waitlisted, and then like, nobody else will come.

• 7:42Guy Raz?

  I remember the story. You begged. You like wrote and wrote and wrote. It's unbelievable.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  There's like a really smart Scott Tannen out there that applied to Vanderbilt, and they just like missed, like, it was like a switch to birth thing.

• 7:53Guy Raz?

  But you guys still keep in touch, right?

• 7:55Speaker 02

  We do.

• 7:56Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And you just had like a reunion, like a high school reunion?

• 8:00Speaker 02

  It was like the 30th, right?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  30th. We're that old.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Wow. Isn't that crazy?

• 8:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Every time we get together, we go to this hole-in-the-wall steak place called Sammy's in Mendham, New Jersey. And it is a hole-in-the-wall.

• 8:12Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  And every time, they end up kicking us out at the end of the night. They're like, all right, you guys, we're done. We're done with you.

• 8:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah, we're done. But it's still the same place, like prime ribs and whatever, and steaks and chops.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Beef fat fries. And like, oh, it is so good.

• 8:25Guy Raz?

  Before we get to our callers, Jamie, brief update from you. You are back in the driver's seat at Ring, right?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:33Guy Raz?

  So you're back running this now bigger organization than it was when you stepped aside, right? I mean, it's more people and bigger operation.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  It's about the same as when I, I mean, it was still pretty big when I stepped aside. So it's about, I'd say about the same. But we're, I mean, we're doing more now. It's just, it's incredible kind of what the business is doing, and especially with AI, what we can impact now is like really unbelievable.

• 8:57Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And tell me what some of the ideas or plans or initiatives are. I mean, obviously, this is a competitive space. There are lots of people in this business. Ring is probably at the top of that list in terms of its market share. But how do you sort of acquire more customers? Is it about price at the end of the day? Is it about technology? What is it about?

• 9:16Speaker 02

  I think you do it by earning trust with your customers. They reward us when they buy a product. So if you show people that you are better for them, better for their neighborhood, I do think they'll reward us with buying more products, putting more products in, more people will get it. I think you win by inventing, by, by leading, by, you know, truly sort of changing the world, not by looking in the rearview mirror and trying to, you know, see what a competitor is doing.

• 9:41Guy Raz?

  Scott, give us an update. When you were last on the show, you and Missy, your wife, were still, were you running the, the brandable and ranch? I'm assuming you're, tell me what's going on?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Missy's kept me around.

• 9:52Guy Raz?

  Good. She's still married.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  We're still, we're still married and running the business. The order probably depends on the day. But yeah, we've, we've opened, we opened seven stores this year. We're going to open another seven next year. So yeah, the business just continues to grow. We're, we feel very fortunate.

• 10:05Guy Raz?

  And where are you opening stores right now? Is this, is it mostly east coast?

• 10:11Speaker 01

  It's all over the country. We just opened Bethesda, Maryland, but the store before that was in Edina, Minnesota. So we tend to be on the eastern half of the country just from a, a operational logistics standpoint. But as we look at 2027, we're going to hit the west coast.

• 10:25Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Well, you guys ready to take the first call?

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 10:28Guy Raz?

  All right. Hello. You are on Advice Line with Scott Tannen and Jamie Siminoff. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business, please.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Sure. Hi, Guy. Hi, Scott. Hi, Jamie. I'm so excited to be here today. My name is Malita Cyril. I'm calling from Toronto, Ontario in Canada. My business is Q for Quinn. We make high-quality socks and underwear made from organic cotton and merino wool so that they're gentle on our skin and our planet.

• 10:57Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in, Malita. So, okay, Q for Quinn. Tell me a little bit about, about this business. How did you, when did you start it? And what were you doing at the time?

• 11:06Speaker 03

  Sure. I started the business about eight years ago. My first born, I have three kids now. He was 10 months at the time and he suffered from eczema. I was not working. I had a stressful corporate jobs as a, as a derivatives trader and a management consultant. And I was really taking time off and being a mom. And so when, when he had eczema, I researched different fabrics. I found organic cotton onesies, but I couldn't find organic cotton socks. And that's when I had the idea to make my own organic cotton socks. So we started with kids' socks, but as we sort of grew, we added adult socks and underwear. And we've been growing pretty nicely, especially in the last few years.

• 11:47Guy Raz?

  Amazing. And tell me, where are you making the, the clothing, for example?

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Sure. The socks are made in Portugal and the underwear is made in India.

• 11:55Guy Raz?

  And you, I mean, I understand your son's situation, but like it's, why did you decide to get into socks and underwear?

• 12:03Speaker 03

  So socks was because I couldn't find organic cotton socks. But, but once I started doing a lot more research on the textile industry and fabrics, I really learned how dirty the textile industry is. There's a lot of chemicals in our clothing, especially those made from synthetic fibers. And from the beginning, our customers were those with allergies and sensitive skin. But as we, as there's more and more research coming out, we're seeing a lot more people switching to natural fibers and seeing a lot more market demand. I think Scott might, might be seeing this too.

• 12:36Guy Raz?

  And, and give us a sense of, of your sales. What, what, what are you guys doing right now? What do you expect to do this year?

• 12:42Speaker 03

  This year, we hope to close in mid, mid seven figures.

• 12:45Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  In revenue. Yeah.

• 12:48Guy Raz?

  Nice. You don't need our help. Maybe you should give us advice.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  I'm gonna send you my resume.

• 12:52Guy Raz?

  All right. And before I forget, what, tell us your question for us.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Sure. So, so we've been growing pretty nicely. We've reached mid seven figures. We've been profitable and we've been bootstrapping this business. My husband joined me full-time this year, so we're also a husband and wife team. But we have three kids and this is our family's income. So going forward, I want to do a lot of things. I want to grow faster. I want to really build our market share in a very fast-growing market here. So should I, should we continue to bootstrap our business? Or should we think about bringing on strategic investors who can help us really provide the money and as well as the advice to grow even faster and take more market share?

• 13:34Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Okay. I want to bring in Jamie and Scott. Guys, first of all, thoughts, ideas, questions for Malita?

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Scott, you're gonna start it off because you might know something about organic cotton.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am such a fan, Malita, of what you're doing. Bootstrapping is always going to be the way that it's best to protect that vision. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the way you're going to grow fastest and, and those sorts of things. So I, I think that there is, look, your story is my story. And in fact, I will tell you that I called the Jamie Siminoff Advice Line when I was like right at the same place in the business where we bootstrapped. We, we felt like we, we needed cash because we wanted to grow faster. And I remember the advice Jamie gave me, which was take the cash and take as little as you possibly need. So you can maintain the control. Cause at the end of the day, as soon as you take money from an investor,

• 14:27Speaker 01

  your number one goal moves from whatever it is today to providing a shareholder return. And there's an expectation from those shareholders that you're going to pick up the phone, you're going to talk to them. And you really don't want someone to say to you, you know, if we switch to conventional cotton, could we expand our margins a little bit? Cause the answer is yes, but it's not something you really want to do. And it is your choice still when it's your own business.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we are going in the direction of completely like biodegradable compostable garments. So everything from, you know, we just started sourcing and launching a new collection with rubber cotton elastic. So we're doing all the innovation and it's expensive, but I think that's how we're different, to your point. And that's something I want to maintain as I build this brand.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I would just, I would just, I mean, I think it's taking $1, taking a million dollars, taking 10 million. It's kind of, once you do that, you, you are crossing like a line, like it is like sort of breaking a barrier. And so I would be very considerate about that. And Scott and I would have long talks about it of like, if you're going to take a dollar, you're taking, like, it's going to change the business. And so you have to like realize that like that first dollar you take is a big step, no matter how many dollars it is. And to Scott's point, whatever the amount is, times it by five or 10, because that's what they want back. So that's really what you're taking. If you take a million dollars, you're really taking 10 million, because you got to give 10 million back. That's what their, their expectation is. And that's, they are aligned with you. So it's not that all investors are bad. They, like, you're going to also be successful

• 15:54Speaker 02

  if they're successful, but it is a different pressure and there is no right answer here. So it's like, I'd just be very considerate about, like, do you, would you rather go slower and have 100% control? Would you rather sort of breach the barrier and have like less control, but, but again, a little bit less stress? Because trust me, I think both Scott and I can, can tell you, we, we totally understand that. I, I know what it's like to have sort of everything in the business and nothing in the tank left over. So.

• 16:22Guy Raz?

  Malita, I have a question for you. What, what categories would you want to expand out into? Right now, you're underwear and socks. Where would you want to go?

• 16:29Speaker 03

  So our next more obvious one that we're working on is athleisure, because when you sweat, you are more likely to absorb some of these chemicals. We actually just launched our sports bra and it's been quite successful. So that's given us some signals of, you know, where can we have that intersection between undergarments as well as athletic wear?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  I like love everything you're doing from my, like, hearing it because you are going after these big categories where, by the way, there's not one winner. There's not a winner takes all. Look at ALO. ALO is this massive, multi-billion dollar company, I think.

• 17:04Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Like there's Lululemon and it's just sort of just sitting there also. And it's just like all, you can grow so big with, and stick to your guns and what you're doing is your mission. I love it.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  Is there any scenario, any, any kind of time that it might make sense to, to bring someone on or?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  I mean, you took it a little later in the, right?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I did. I mean, I took it at a point where I, I continued to fund with debt. And so it just got to the point where Missy went to Target and she got approved for a $20 credit limit. I was like, okay, it's probably time to think about this. So, so we did it from the standpoint of getting ourselves personally out of debt. And we had three kids. I mean, I'm serious. Your story is my story. And, and honestly, we took some off the table at that point too, to, to help us de-risk. So, so we felt like, all right, now, now we're at a spot where we can with clear heads align with these investors and really go for it. Because we were worrying about, you know, servicing debt and doing those sorts of things, even though we were profitable.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I would say, I mean, I think there's consensus here that maybe now is not the exact right time, but, but when you can point to sort of the, the clearest growth channel, right? That's working, that's predictable. I mean, I have to imagine the margin on socks are, the margins are pretty good.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:21Guy Raz?

  And your customers are willing to pay a premium because they're people who are sort of conscious and aware of, of natural materials. And that's, that's a category, I think, that is just ripe for an explosion, because athleisure wear is still largely made up of plastic, right? I mean, it is.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 18:38Guy Raz?

  Petroleum-based. And increasingly, people are like, you know, I do want to just, I want to go back to, I want to have cotton or merino wool. And it's just harder to find those things. You, you would find them in the seventies, but today, performance wear is not made from natural materials. So I think there is an opportunity. Very few people are making good stuff yet. It's still early days. It's like, it's like trying to make sweet stuff without using sugar. It's still a little challenging.

• 19:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's why it just feels so like, I just want to go, go, go. Cause it's such, it feels like such a ripe market for disruption.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  You are a founder and an entrepreneur. We all have the same, we're all wired the same, which is like, we just, but, but sometimes it is like, you know, just taking a little bit of a pause and like letting it happen. And when you, when you, from the outside, you can always, it's easier to look as like a coach.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  But trust me, I did the same thing. I mean, I couldn't leave a single sale to not, I was, I had to move as fast as I could. I couldn't help it.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. Thank you.

• 19:38Guy Raz?

  Malita, thank you so much for calling in. The brand is called Q for Quinn. By the way, I didn't ask you, who's Quinn?

• 19:43Speaker 03

  So Quinn is my son's middle name. He was named after my grandmother, Queenie, who passed away sadly, just before he was born. So it's a special name.

• 19:51Guy Raz?

  Awesome. I love it. Q for Quinn. Good luck. Thanks for calling in.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 19:58Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Yeah. I don't know if you guys, I don't know if you guys have looked around, but, but I, I've gotten into like, I wear, you know, well, I'll wear the Vioris and Lululemons and ALOs. I wear them all. And Nike, obviously. But I do, increasingly, I'm looking for like all natural stuff.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  I totally agree with you. I think there's a big hole in the market. And, and so every instinct I had said, yeah, just go, just go for it. But, you know, I worry about what's going to happen in that vision if she, if she does too fast.

• 20:26Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  And it's, it is early.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Very.

• 20:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah. All right. Well, I say natural, I say like I'm into natural fibers, me who just replaced my, my grass with fake grass. So there you go.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  That's the most California thing I think I've ever heard. Out here in New Jersey, we don't do that.

• 20:41Guy Raz?

  Right. You got all the water you need.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't have to.

• 20:46Guy Raz?

  We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.

• 21:01Guy Raz?

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• 23:08Guy Raz?

  When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show, because the best ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it.

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• 24:37Guy Raz?

  But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together. And that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new expert created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization and how to position your business to prosper from it. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built.

• 25:21Guy Raz?

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• 26:02Guy Raz?

  Prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together. The agents bring speed and scale, and people bring taste, judgment, and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply.

• 26:40Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jamie Simonoff, the founder of Ring, and Scott Tannen, co-founder of Bull and Branch. And we are ready to take the next call. Let's go.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 26:53Guy Raz?

  All right. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with Scott Tannen, Jamie Simonoff. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  Hi, Guy. Hi, Scott. Hi, Jamie. My name is Eric Alexson. I'm the president and one of three co-founders of L-Cube Lifestyle, where the ethos is laugh, learn, and longevity. We're a Florida-based UV lifestyle brand built around one simple goal: to be the brand people play life in. Our edge is in the fabric, 100% polyamide for comfort, performance, and true UV protection.

• 27:28Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Thanks for calling in. Now, now, we're going to be talking about this material if we're talking about natural materials. But this is really where it's at, right? We're talking about performance wear. You guys are making it, and it's... Correct me if I'm wrong, Eric. What you guys are focused on is UV protection. I thought leisure wear or sports clothing that protects you from the sun.

• 27:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, ideally from head to toe. We've started with T-shirts, long sleeve shirts, hoodies, and hats. And we're currently looking to a couple manufacturers to bring in shorts, leggings, and skirts, so our customers can be protected mechanically instead of with sunscreen and chemicals from head to toe.

• 28:10Guy Raz?

  And this is interesting, because a lot of people, I, myself included in this group, are worried about putting on... I do. I use it. I use sunscreen. I use sunblock. But sometimes I'm like, is this getting into my skin? And I've changed to mineral sunscreen. But if you have something on your body that is protecting you, you don't have to put sunblock on.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we actually are backed by a Mohs surgeon and a certified dermatologist here in Florida, where she's gone on podcasts with us on other podcasts, backing mechanical sun protection over the chemicals is always the first choice.

• 28:46Guy Raz?

  Mechanical, meaning clothing?

• 28:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, or hats.

• 28:48Guy Raz?

  Covering your skin.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  Through the fabric.

• 28:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 28:50Speaker 04

  And then, yeah.

• 28:52Guy Raz?

  All right. So tell me a little bit about how you guys started this business.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I'm a racket sports person background. I grew up in Florida as a competitive tennis player, played college, played kind of division, triple A baseball level professional team tennis in Europe. But I actively sought out opportunities to teach tennis indoor. Because mom and dad are Norwegian heritage, I have the wrong skin type to teach tennis full time outside. Had a rare opportunity to work with the 100% polyamide with another company that ended up going under. And my two co-founders made me an offer that I couldn't turn down. So we're bootstrapping. We're funded internally. And we're trying to get into several markets at the same time.

• 29:37Guy Raz?

  And you guys are selling through your website?

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Both the website, and we most recently have launched on Amazon for the retail aspect, which leads me to my question to you. We're also offering wholesale and co-branded options for pickleball tournaments, for half marathons, surfing companies, paddle boarding, tennis. Is it wise to try to scale both the retail arm and the wholesale co-branded arm at the same time? Or would you recommend focusing on one of them and maybe why?

• 30:10Guy Raz?

  Interesting. Okay. Co-branded or wholesale retail? Let's, let's bring these guys in. Scott Tannen, any thoughts or questions first for Eric?

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, my first question is, how are your margins?

• 30:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. So yeah, we're currently manufactured out of Brazil. So recent tariffs, we're looking into some other manufacturing options. They're pretty tight and even more so on the co-branded manufacturing side.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think margins are going to be really important here. And I say that because education is critical. You've got to educate the customer on why, I mean, I go outside and clothing all the time and I don't expect them getting sunburnt, right? So you're going to have, education eats margins, right? That is like as clear as day, education eats margins. And when you're the first one to do it, you've got to bear the cost of that in terms of building a brand. And so I just think like, protect those margins and then get after trying to unlock with the customer, the fact that the best way for me to protect against the sun is this apparel when I'm, when I'm active in those sorts of things. It's not easy to do, really, really

• 31:22Speaker 01

  hard to do. But I think that's the challenge in front of you.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  So we could get some more endorsements, like I said before, from, you know, dermatologists and Mo's surgeon. And to answer your question, a cotton shirt or a TJ Maxx, like a polymide or a dual blend has a default UPF factor of like 18 to 22. And so ours is certified UV50. So it's over double. I don't currently have that on the website or on the Amazon storefront, but I can hear you with the education component. Maybe that's something that we need to add.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  The problem you're looking at, I've seen a lot of companies do this sort of, it's like a vicious cycle is you're, if you could sit down with every customer and explain it like this to me, I would buy your product. The problem is the cost to do that is so high. And so there's a million great products that have gone bankrupt and gone out of business and not made it because it's too hard to explain. Like Scott made sheets that were a little better. And I'm not diminishing it, but like, but like, it was like organic cotton sheets. It was like, you know, so I knew what sheets were. I know what they did. I knew how to use them. I knew everything about it. Ring, we did a wifi video camera in a doorbell. Everyone understood what a doorbell was, where it was supposed to be, what like what it did,

• 32:37Speaker 02

  how it worked. I just made it on your phone with a video camera. So the pre-awareness of the doorbell gave me billions of dollars of marketing and 100 years of knowledge. And so for you, I'm sitting here thinking about it. It's like, I didn't realize there was this problem. I didn't even realize like, I would just put on a shirt. I don't know. And I was thinking about like the pre-awareness and I'm like, you know what, how I'd be selling this? I'd be making sunscreen bottles with the shirt inside of it and selling it where sunscreen is.

• 33:04Guy Raz?

  Oh, I love that. Like pack it into the sunscreen bottle.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  And sell it in the sunscreen aisle. I'd be selling the whole thing, 50 SPF, whatever, in the sunscreen aisle.

• 33:13Guy Raz?

  In the bottle.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Go right in there. I'd be, that's what I'd do. Because you want that pre-awareness. Because if it's in the sunscreen aisle, I'd be like, I understand what the shirt does now. Because I'm in the sunscreen aisle.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  He just figured it out for you.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  How do you drop one of these mics, Guy?

• 33:27Guy Raz?

  Oh, yeah. Drop it, baby. Because he's competing with, with sunscreen and sunblock, essentially.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Yes, it's not, it's not clothing.

• 33:33Guy Raz?

  It's not, yeah.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:35Speaker 04

  I like it. We're not really competing against other fabrics or other wearables. We're actually competing against sunscreens. That's brilliant. But the other factor and a way to differentiate ourselves in a very competitive athleisure wear with UPF factor is most companies spray on the UV protection after production with a chemical. And ours is actually in the tightness or how open the weave is.

• 34:03Guy Raz?

  It's woven into the entry.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Eric, you're going like, like, it's like, I put you on like, it's like, I put the little train on the track and you just like blew it right off again. It's like, you have to, you have to explain all of that. And you might be right. Like, it's not that you're wrong. It's just like, you're in the weeds again. Like, I'm replacing sunscreen. By the way, people know that sunscreen now is toxic. Like, that's, I'd say.

• 34:23Guy Raz?

  Don't want to say that because we've had some sunscreen brands on the advice line. Not all of them are toxic.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  So, but, so as a consumer, as a consumer, I believe that sunscreen is not good for you.

• 34:33Guy Raz?

  Fair enough.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  That's my belief now. That's what I've been told. That's what I've been told.

• 34:36Guy Raz?

  You believe.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  That's what I believe.

• 34:38Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  And when I talk to people, they sort of have that belief, but we also don't know how to not to put sunscreen on. Because I also know that burning my skin off is bad as well.

• 34:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  And so I do think it's like positioning yourself directly, mechanical sunscreen in the bottle. I see it on the thing, know exactly what to do with it, pre-awareness, boom. And yes, sunscreen is great. It just turns out that I think it's not. I don't know.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Love it. I think what that sets you up to do also is it lets you think about products in a really different way. Like, how do I create real devices that protect from the sun that are made from this material that you have? I mean, I get it. Trust me. Like, our, our products, even though Jamie thinks we only make one thing, one small thing different, he's actually dead right. If, you know, Missy can go deep with him on how she made a downproof fabric without chemicals. But at the end of the day, it's like, I don't know, is the, is the down comfort or comfortable? You know, and, and so people just want sun protection from you. Give it to them.

• 35:33Guy Raz?

  Yes. And it's convenient. Your opportunity, I think, is clear here. It's not, it's not competing with the athleisure wear market necessarily. It's going after the people using sunblock and sunscreen.

• 35:45Speaker 04

  That's brilliant. I appreciate it, guys.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  And I think to your question around like, what channels should you think about? You now have an enemy, right? Your enemy is sunscreen. Go chase them in every channel that they play.

• 35:57Guy Raz?

  My God, all my sunscreen founders are going to kill me.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  And, and you know what retail loves? Retail loves something new in an aisle that brings in more money to that aisle. They love change. They love this. So if you go to them and say, in your sunscreen aisle, I want to do this, they will love this. It's higher margin, higher per square, per square foot sales. It's like, this is catnip.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, CVS, Walgreens, like, surf shops.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:20Guy Raz?

  All right. Awesome. Eric Alexson, co-founder of L-Cubed Lifestyle. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Good luck.

• 36:27Guy Raz?

  Man, how much do you guys charge an hour? Jamie, what's your hourly consulting fee?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Brilliant.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I charge like a steak dinner. So like, I expect, I expect Eric, when he's like a billionaire from this, to at least take me out for like a steak dinner.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  I still owe you one.

• 36:39Guy Raz?

  Wagyu, A5, Miyazaki?

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I'm actually like more just like a regular.

• 36:43Guy Raz?

  Regular USDA choice.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Steak and fries, you know, like, I'm not, yeah, I don't need the, I mean, I'll take a wagyu.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  I don't remember what I owed Jamie a steak dinner for something. And then I got vertigo that day. And I'm like in bed and he's like, you're so full of it. I'm like, no, dude, I can't get out of it.

• 36:57Guy Raz?

  Would you do a steak and eggs at Denny's? Does that count?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  That, that's fine.

• 37:01Guy Raz?

  Or IHOP?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  That's aggressive.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  I'm a Denny's guy. I'm a Denny's.

• 37:03Guy Raz?

  All right, all right, cool.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I've never been to a Denny's.

• 37:06Guy Raz?

  They're great. They're great.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I eat horrible things, so I think I would like it.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Denny's is right up your alley, Scott. You'd love a Denny's. You should be going to Denny's.

• 37:16Guy Raz?

  After the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

• 37:33Guy Raz?

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• 38:17Guy Raz?

  through Stripe, with Stripe's users processing a combined $1.9 trillion last year. So if you're already thinking about what's next for your business, see what's possible at stripe.com.

• 38:35Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. And my guests today are Bull and Branch co-founder Scott Tannen and Ring founder Jamie Siminoff. Scott, Jamie, you guys ready for another call?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 38:47Speaker 04

  Let's do it.

• 38:48Guy Raz?

  Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Scott and Jamie. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.

• 38:54Speaker 05

  Hey, Guy. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Scott. My name's Chris McElroy. I'm the CEO and founder of Knox Provisions, and I'm calling from Alpine Meadows, California. Knox is short for binocs, which is short for binoculars. And we make award-winning, beautifully designed binoculars, monoculars, and scopes with a modern brand that celebrates accessibility, inclusivity, and presence in the outdoors.

• 39:16Guy Raz?

  All right, awesome. Chris, thanks for calling in. Describe. So these are binoculars and monoculars. Monoculars, is that right? And tell me what makes them, what, I mean, what makes them different or stand out or unique?

• 39:29Speaker 05

  You know, when we got the company going, the idea of having binoculars at a football game, a music festival, going out to the beach was really appealing. And when I looked at the market, the industrial design was really just dominated by kind of a homogenous black or green binocular brands that were kind of saying the same thing. And ultimately, what we did is we built high-quality, compact binoculars that are well-designed, colorful, and wrapped up in a brand that really celebrates getting people in the outdoors.

• 39:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I have a pair of binoculars and they're really clunky. You put them around your neck and it feels like the same way it felt like when I was a kid in the eighties. It hasn't changed much, obviously, there are different kinds. But so these are just, they're sleeker, right? I mean, I guess it's got a grippy outer coating, too?

• 40:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's right. And we got started by basically making a compact, waterproof binocular, high-quality, a hundred bucks. That was the initial thesis.

• 40:26Guy Raz?

  How long have you been doing this?

• 40:28Speaker 05

  We've been doing this for six years now.

• 40:30Guy Raz?

  Got it. And what were you doing before?

• 40:32Speaker 05

  Before that, after school, I had co-founded a Bluetooth speaker business in 2010, when Bluetooth was still new. And when the market was just all black little capsule speakers, we made a colorful speaker collection, built a really cool brand around it, and ultimately raised VC money and really aimed for the moon and hit the atmosphere and blew up.

• 40:53Guy Raz?

  He blew up, meaning the company went bankrupt?

• 40:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was sold for parts, but it was a great run. It was kind of like getting an MBA, learned a ton, went to China probably 20 times. And after that went belly up, I built a 3D printer and was kind of set on building the next thing. And a buddy came back from the Outside Lands Music Festival and said, man, if only we had some stylish, cool binoculars, those would be great. And so I took a look at the market and really, as a product person, was confused. You spend 500 bucks, 750, like, what are these brands? It seemed like a great opportunity and kind of ran the similar playbook back. So brought color, brought an active brand to that space.

• 41:40Guy Raz?

  Awesome. So you've been doing this for six years now. And did you also raise outside capital like you did with your last business? Or did you take a different route?

• 41:49Speaker 05

  We took a different route. It was a great learning experience, great mentorship. We, it was a good run, but again, that type of return on a lifestyle brand, I don't think fits the VC sort of paradigm. And so with Knox, it's been bootstrapped this whole time.

• 42:05Guy Raz?

  Nice. And give us a sense of, and these are mainly sold online or in shops? Where are they sold?

• 42:11Speaker 05

  We sell in core outdoor retailers across the United States. We sell in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Europe. We're in REI nationwide, as well as Dick's Sporting Goods nationwide. And then, of course, we have our own Amazon and direct-to-consumer channel.

• 42:25Guy Raz?

  And what are you guys doing in sales right now?

• 42:28Speaker 05

  Last year, we crested 10 million.

• 42:30Guy Raz?

  Wow, that's incredible.

• 42:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, and this year, we've hit that again in some pretty intense headwinds in the outdoor industry and given tariffs. So we've got a great team.

• 42:40Guy Raz?

  Congrats. And what's your question for us?

• 42:42Speaker 05

  We've seen this growth initially in the core outdoor channels. It's been great, but we know our optics have utility beyond this. How do we drive awareness that people should use binoculars outside of traditional outdoor channels, such as birding or hunting?

• 42:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah, Jamie Siminoff, sounds like you in the early days, building stuff, tinkering, trying to come up with a new invention, that not working. But actually, having a failure is a hugely advantageous experience. So, by the way, kudos to you also, Chris, for coming right back to it after that first thing didn't work out. So.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's always good to see someone recover like that. I mean, it's always easy afterwards to say how easy it is. I have built another business, but going through that trough is, it's really tough. So yeah, kudos for being able to get through it and build an incredibly successful business so far.

• 43:31Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 43:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah, so what do you think here? I mean, how would you start, either of you guys, in sort of tackling the question or any questions that you might have for Chris?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  I mean, for me, I'm looking at it and saying, okay, if you want to expand in different things, how do you attach this to the phone? I'm thinking about TikTok, Instagram, and is there a way to integrate something into like a case or something with the phones, you're getting more of that digital? And then using that as a way to sort of efficiently get this out there? Because obviously, any top-of-the-funnel advertising is going to be very expensive.

• 44:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  I think it's really interesting, like, a lot of brands have this challenge of developing their own positioning. You have to actually de-position the rest of the category. And I don't even know if I just made up that word. I probably did. Jamie will kind of point that out later.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  But I think that if you think about what you are, you are the same thing that exists in the category, but you're also completely not, at least in terms of what you look like and how you show up and all of those things. So I think your instincts are right to figure out, how do I make this some sort of lifestyle accessory that exists in a world where you wouldn't want to bring? Like, you know the guy that shows up at a football game when it's cold and he's wearing his fluorescent orange hunting gear? Like, you don't want to be that guy in the stadium with your camouflage binoculars. You want to have Knox. And so how do we deliver on that? How do we? And I think Jamie's right, like, figuring out the right way to integrate with social media so that it starts being like the places you show up, it makes sense that Knox is

• 45:04Speaker 01

  the brand that you're going to have if that's your lifestyle. Like, I'm an indoor cat, but I occasionally go outside to sporting events and stuff. I don't farm and do stuff like Jamie does. And so my needs are for less camo and more bright colors. Like, I saw it and I'm like, I'm in.

• 45:19Speaker 05

  Cool. Yeah, and Scott, I know you're a big football fan or were, and my experience with binoculars growing up was going to 49er games. That was it. It was an easy first step, or not easy, but an obvious first step to pursue the outdoor channel. And we're at a point now where it's like, do we go all in and go into music festivals? Do we pursue like an NFL license?

• 45:41Speaker 02

  I do think, I just would look at, as you keep talking, it's like, but people don't go to these things anymore, most of them. And by this, it's very sad, I think. But they go to capture the photo, not to see it themselves. Binoculars are for you. And so I think it is trying to figure out how to get the binocular to show that. And by the way, Ring, we watermarked every video. So when you see a ring, something happens and it's on the news, it says Ring on the side. Like, can you figure out how to somehow get towards that? Because the reality is, what I really want to do when I'm at the football game is take a picture to show my friends that I was there. And that's where the Knox kind of, can you get that, I guess? Because kids, I mean, everywhere I go now, all they do is these selfies and these, again,

• 46:25Speaker 02

  I don't love it personally, but I think from a business side, you have to lean into it.

• 46:29Guy Raz?

  I think that's really, really interesting. I'm going to take a slightly different take. I think Jamie's probably right. Like, if you want to make money, follow Jamie's advice. If you don't want to make money, follow the advice I'm about to give you, which is, I actually think your biggest competition is distraction, right? And I'm really interested in this whole movement of people who are interested in analog experiences, putting their phones. I've got this thing called a brick. It's on my fridge, I scan my phone and it locks it up. And I got to go back physically to that thing and it unlocks. It's very analog, but it's great. I think that maybe you might want to think about creating some kind of campaign around, like a daily ritual. Like, put away the phone, no phone.

• 47:14Guy Raz?

  You know, take a walk, go outside, look up. I just think that there's an opportunity to lean into this kind of screen-free, like, sort of decompress kind of thing that's happening. Because a lot of people are interested in it. Their brains are overloaded with junk that they're getting from their devices. And I wonder whether you might want to kind of lean into that.

• 47:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's a great point. Binoculars, monoculars, they're a little portal into presence.

• 47:42Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, you could build a whole campaign around just the idea of like, notice the world again. Look, I'm not saying that's going to be the panacea, but it's, if you think about it that way, it's an opportunity to sort of expand how people use the device, to use the binoculars. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Don't follow my advice. If you want to make money, turn to a social media thing and let people post.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  I just think after selling to the 10 people guys talking about, then you got to go to my market.

• 48:14Guy Raz?

  Exactly.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  That's all I'm saying. But like, yes, he's totally right. There are 10 people out there that want to do this. And it's super, we should supply them binoculars.

• 48:23Guy Raz?

  You want to make an app on the iPhone that you can connect with a monocular and there you go. Scott, any thoughts?

• 48:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  I was gonna say something maybe friendlier than Jamie put it, but, but I tend to agree with it. I think that there's, I don't know, there is something like I have college age girls and what I'm noticing when I go visit them at school and tailgates, people have regular digital cameras now. And I'm like, what the hell? I have the iPhone 17 Pro. Isn't that, isn't that better? But there's something about detaching from the phone. Yes. That, that Yes. Maybe is existing. And I think, I don't know why people carry these digital cameras. I've never gotten a clear answer on that. However, if you can figure out why and attach this to sort of that idea, then, then, you know, maybe there's 20 people, Guy, that

• 49:11Speaker 02

  I like that, I like that Scott took like the guy and Jamie and like, like mashed it together to make like a good sort of outcome from both.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a peacekeeper.

• 49:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah. But I mean, it's, you know, even if you go to your website here, Chris, I mean, it's good, but you're definitely, clearly it looks like, you know, it's for stargazing or for camping adventure, it's adventure, you know, it's sort of like, it's like the person who drives a Rivian, right, is going to want these in their car, which is great. I mean, there's a lot of people like that. And I would definitely keep doing that. You want to lean into that. But for example, like, I think about something like skiing. Nobody has a, you, these could just slip into your ski, be a pocket of your ski pants and, you know, while you're skiing, like, maybe you'd want to look at the chairlifts from a distance. I don't know. Maybe there's, there are other, you know, use cases, but I think that just make it into a ritual or routine or just something that's always around.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Can't we just see Guy in Aspen on this, on this

• 50:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah, with the monocular.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Monocular.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Capture those moments. That's all.

• 50:09Guy Raz?

  And then I'll post it to my TikTok.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 50:12Guy Raz?

  Yeah. It's an awesome product. Well, congrats on, on, on all your success, Chris. Good luck. The brand is called Knox Provision. Thanks for calling in, man.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thank you. And I appreciate it.

• 50:24Guy Raz?

  Thank you.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  But thanks.

• 50:28Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I, every time I have binoculars, I'm like, God, I want to have these around more. Like, they're really useful.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  That's why I like the phone case thing. Cause then it's like, it's, it sort of like puts it with the system that you have.

• 50:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Like you would have a phone case, like a binocular case?

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, like, and maybe the thing just like clicks up to the camera, but it also is like integrated. So it's like one piece.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Maybe people can embrace their inner creepy, you know?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 50:54Guy Raz?

  Don't be a creeper. I like that.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  I know. I was like, maybe, maybe there's a big market of creepy people that could buy this stuff. Revenue's revenue.

• 51:02Guy Raz?

  Exactly.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  There we go.

• 51:04Guy Raz?

  Guys, before I let you go, Jamie, I've asked you this question, so I'm not going to ask you again, but Scott, if you were to go back to the Scott of, you know, early days of Bull and Branch, when you guys were starting it, and you could give yourself some advice that would have been helpful to have known then that you now know, you know, all these years later, what, what would have been helpful for you to know?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Keep it simple. Your approach to the problems you run into, the challenges, try to simple it down and slim it down to something really clear, really addressable and knock it out and move on. None of our businesses, as complex as our businesses are, at their core, what makes them successful or not, is not that complicated. It's about, you know, how well you're serving a customer, how well your customer loves the product and those sorts of things. So I think the, the less you stray away from the simplicity of that, the better.

• 51:50Guy Raz?

  Fair enough. All right. Scott Tannen, Jamie Siminoff, thanks so much for coming back on the show, guys.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Thanks for having us, Scott.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Thanks for having us. It's great.

• 51:57Guy Raz?

  And by the way, if you haven't heard Scott and Jamie's original How I Built This episodes, please go back and check them out. We'll put a link to them in the show notes. And here's one of my favorite moments from my interview first with Scott. You took a line of credit against your house to spend $2 million on an ad campaign on Howard Stern.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. I took the, the most amount of debt I've ever had on anything in my life.

• 52:20Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Just to advertise on Howard Stern.

• 52:22Guy Raz?

  You're putting all your eggs in that basket.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Without a plan for what I was going to do if it worked, but I believed so strongly that somebody like Howard was going to put us on the map. I believed it was possible.

• 52:35Guy Raz?

  Sounds kind of nuts.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  It does, actually, now that you say it.

• 52:40Guy Raz?

  And here is one of my favorite moments from my interview with Jamie.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  We start hearing, it's like the week before Christmas, people are contacting me and saying, it's not working. And their video was coming through like an old TV like tuner, like it was like all like lines through it and just, you couldn't see the picture. So, most of our units are now in the field with customers that not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them. So they're basically bricks.

• 53:05Guy Raz?

  You cannot fix the ones that people have?

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. You can't rewrite the software on this chip. And so, this was like the end of the world. Like this really was. Basically, the business is over.

• 53:19Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in

• 54:04Guy Raz?

  the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our production staff also includes John Isabella, Casey Herman, Catherine Seifer, Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, Sam Paulson, Elaine Coats, and Miva Grant. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This.

• 54:32Guy Raz?

  Thanks again to Engine for their support. If your business is growing and your team is traveling, Engine makes it simple and saves you money doing it. 33,000 businesses have joined. Now it's your turn. Engine.com/built.