Mae Martin - 'Everything I do is about proving those high school bullies wrong.'

Over on Failing with Friends this week, Mae Martin talks about self-care, how to stop pushing people away and we tackle a listener’s failure to be messy in their twenties. To hear Mae Martin's brilliant advice, join our community of subscribers: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Canadian comedian, writer, producer and singer/songwriter Mae Martin joins Elizabeth to talk about making music, the importance of pronouns and being diagnosed with ADHD. We also discuss their hit Netflix show Feel Good, going to rehab as a teenager and their borderline addiction to escape rooms (they've done 50 in three years...absolutely zero judgement here). Mae Martin’s new album ‘I’m a TV’ is out now. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 02:08 Creative Journey 04:22 Discussing the Album 'I'm a TV' 10:01 Failures and Life Lessons 11:19 Childhood and Family Influence 17:54 Struggles with Identity and Addiction 34:33 Diving into Troubled Teen Industry 35:43 Importance of Pronouns 38:13 Standup Comedy Struggles 39:03 Bombing at Edinburgh Fringe 42:12 Comedy Community Support 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code [howtofail] at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/howtofail ⛵ Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Hello lovely How To Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo, or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there.

• 0:29Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How To Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is a podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  And you think you've outgrown it and you're so above it all. And then you notice that your recent searches on Instagram of people's profiles are all your enemies and your exes. You're like, why am I still looking at these people? I sort of didn't realise that most of my life, every time someone said she, which is a thousand times a day, probably 2000, it's like someone pointing out the thing about yourself that makes you feel confused or uncomfortable. So it's like, like if you were balding and someone every day was like bald, bald, bald, bald. It's just nice to have a break from it. Like I don't really feel safe in a men's bathroom, but I don't particularly want to be in the women's changing room either. So yeah, I'm like, I get it. I don't know either.

• 1:35Elizabeth Day?

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• 2:17Elizabeth Day?

  Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first.

• 2:32Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today is Mae Martin, an award-winning comedian, producer, actor, podcast host, and singer-songwriter. They were born in Toronto, Canada, the younger child of former hippies Wendy and James, who raised their children in a home filled with the recordings of British and American comedy classics. Martin saw their first comedy show aged 11, and, in their words, felt absolutely on fire. Dropping out of high school, they started on the stand-up circuit as a teenager, before moving to the UK in their twenties, eventually co-creating and starring in the semi-autobiographical Netflix show Feel Good. Martin's stand-up

• 3:15Elizabeth Day?

  tours, Us in 2015 about sex and gender identity, and Dope in 2017 about addiction, were both turned into BBC radio shows. Now they're set to showrun and star in a forthcoming Netflix thriller series, Wayward, alongside promoting their first-ever album, I'm a TV. The album, entirely written by them, is an indie rock expression of millennial nostalgia and a total delight to listen to. A comedian, a writer, and now a musician, Martin is a creative powerhouse. If there is one thing that connects all of their work, it is, perhaps,

• 3:56Elizabeth Day?

  an acceptance that creativity and self-fulfillment comes in many forms, a desire for us to be given space to figure things out, and a generosity of spirit that enables Martin's audience to see ourselves in their art. I'm a big advocate of ambiguity, Martin has said in the past, of the idea that not knowing is fine. Mae Martin, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this so much.

• 4:26Elizabeth Day?

  So have I. And thank you for being here because I know that you are fresh off the stage.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a little ropey. Yeah, I feel underdressed and underslept, but I'm

• 4:36Elizabeth Day?

  No, you're perfect.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Thank you, so are you.

• 4:39Elizabeth Day?

  And I wanted to ask you about that idea of ambiguity, because it's something that I have only recently understood underpins great creativity.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:51Elizabeth Day?

  That idea that the void is fertile, that confusion can actually be so creative.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:58Elizabeth Day?

  Does that resonate with you?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think maybe not being attached to a particular outcome and being more open to the process, maybe. And I just find in general in life, there's so much nuance and gray area and things aren't as black and white as it's tempting to make them. We're so desperate to do that for our brains, to organize things properly and know where we stand on everything. But it's hard to. Yeah.

• 5:28Elizabeth Day?

  Let's talk about I'm a TV.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 5:30Elizabeth Day?

  Does it feel particularly vulnerable sharing your music in this way for the first time?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  I do have real imposter syndrome about it. I think I, my biggest fear is the opinions of my peers and musicians and because it's really new for me and I feel like I'm learning a whole new language. But I made the album not intending to release it. And I think that was really helpful because I just did it as a, I've always wanted to go into a studio with friends and I'd been writing by myself. And so I did it kind of as a passion project and then When it felt like it was a cohesive thing and it felt like it was authentically me, then I thought, I may as well put it out, yeah.

• 6:15Elizabeth Day?

  And how does performing music differ from performing stand up?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  I, I thought there would be a lot more crossover because I've been doing stand up 25 years. I thought, oh, it'll be fine, but it's, um, it's hugely different. Yeah, it's, it's a totally different energetic exchange with the audience. And I'm so used to, I mean, my comedy is quite personal and confessional. But if you're going to take people to a, an emotional place with comedy, you have to trust that you're going to be able to bring them out of it and break the tension, you know, and undercut it or self-deprecate. And so there's, it's nice to not have to do that and to let people sit in that tension. And people seem really hungry for it to go to that emotional place. So that's been really nice.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  And there's so much tech, there's like pedalboards and in-ear, so I'm learning all that. It's crazy.

• 7:10Elizabeth Day?

  I want to do that annoying thing.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Please.

• 7:13Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, great. The interviews tend to do where they listen to music and to lyrics, and then they ask you directly whether it pertains to your actual life.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Great.

• 7:26Elizabeth Day?

  So one of my favorite, actually, I love Big Bear.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 7:29Elizabeth Day?

  I love that track because I've never been to Big Bear and it made me want to go.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it's beautiful there, yeah.

• 7:34Elizabeth Day?

  The song, I Love You So Much.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:36Elizabeth Day?

  Which is about throwing a bomb into the life of a married woman.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:40Elizabeth Day?

  Mae Martin, have you done that?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  No, not, not a married woman. I think for me, that song, hopefully it's relatable, is about, well, you were talking about ambiguity. And I always think about, I mean, I'm, I'm a very romantic person. And I, I think it's crazy that we categorize all our relationships into platonic or romantic because there is so much gray area, at least for me. I have lots of friends who you think, oh, maybe in another life, this would have been a thing. Or, or, you know, you can be sort of in love with your friends. So it's about, um, it's kind of about that.

• 8:14Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Elizabeth Day?

  Then People Get Back Up.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:18Elizabeth Day?

  Which is one of the most moving tracks.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  That's one of the most directly. Personal, isn't it? Like the lyrics kind of, yeah.

• 8:24Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Well, if it is, then I'm really sorry for your loss.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 8:29Elizabeth Day?

  Because it's about a friend who, reading between the lines, took his own life.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I've, I've had a couple of, I, I worry a lot about my straight male friends mainly, and men's mental health and have, just because that's been my experience. I've had a couple of friends, yeah, who've really struggled and, and taken their lives. So yeah, that one was about my friend Jesse, and then I had a really close friend, David. And it's a nice one to play live because people really, those moments where you really feel people, you know, settle into it. Yeah.

• 9:01Elizabeth Day?

  Can I ask you a bit more about why you worry about your straight male friends? Only because when I first started this podcast in 2018, almost every straight man that I approached to be part of the first season said, I don't think I failed, so.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Are you serious?

• 9:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, totally serious.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Wow. But that's part of the problem because they're bottling it all up. Because of course they have, and they're terrified of, of failing. I'm, I'm making huge generalizations, but I just have a lot of, I mean, most of my best friends are straight men. I don't know if that's because I've been in the comedy scene for so long, but um, yeah, I just, I, I definitely recognize that cultural pressure to, yeah, not open up and, and the stigma around men being soft and sweet. And yeah, so I empathize.

• 9:50Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sure that you offer them the space that they need.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Give them a cuddle, you know?

• 9:54Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 9:56Elizabeth Day?

  Final question before we get on to your failures. You, you love escape rooms.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Talk to me.

• 10:01Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yes. It's all I love.

• 10:04Elizabeth Day?

  That's so interesting because I find them panic inducing.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Okay.

• 10:09Elizabeth Day?

  And I think it's because I, my default for many years was to attempt to be a perfectionist, people pleaser.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:15Elizabeth Day?

  So there's so much pressure that I put on myself.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  To beat the record and get out and yeah.

• 10:20Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm terrible at them, and I find that difficult to cope with.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  I'm not great at them, but I do them obsessively. I, I think I've done, I've been in LA three years, and I just, I have an app where you mark the ones you've done, and I've done over 50 in three years. I'm so into it. I don't know if that's a red flag about my personality, but I find it really gratifying that you have one clear task, escape the room, you know? And, and life goes on pause and you can just, it's very linear. I really like it. I like any kind of immersive experience.

• 10:50Elizabeth Day?

  Even immersive theatre.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:52Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 10:54Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  I'm doing, I'm doing one on, um, on Saturday. I'm doing, I hate saying the name of it. I'm doing, you, yes.

• 10:59Elizabeth Day?

  Bum bum theatre.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  You me bum bum train. Yes. And I hate saying it, but.

• 11:04Elizabeth Day?

  That is actually meant to be amazing and life changing.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  That's what I hear. Yeah.

• 11:07Elizabeth Day?

  Your first failure is failing out of high school.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:12Elizabeth Day?

  So tell us about this.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  It's like we were saying about being attached to a certain outcome. I mean, school is a really, there's a really clear track, you know, it's pass and fail. And I always struggled. I, I never, I remember just sitting even in primary school and watching the clock and feeling like my life was slipping away and being like, this is torture. I don't, and I would always ask to go pee during every class and then just milk the time and walk around really slowly in the halls. And, and then, yeah, in high school, um, I, well, I discovered comedy first of all, and I started doing gigs a lot of nights a week. And so I was very tired. And, uh, yeah, I, I got, I remember getting like

• 11:58Speaker 01

  13% in math one year and it just slowly started to, yeah, become impossible. So then I, I sort of dropped out, but I would have failed out imminently, I think. And it was, yeah, it was daunting because, yeah, I didn't have, there aren't a lot of models of what that looks like. And it, it felt really seismic in the moment.

• 12:21Elizabeth Day?

  Tell me a little bit about your childhood up to that point, because I noticed there were two points in the introduction where you laughed in a sweet way. And one of them was when I described your parents as former hippies.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Well, they, yeah, they're very creative people. And I guess it was because of them that I thought maybe there was an option to do unorthodox things or to take a different route. And they, my dad's a freelance writer and my mom is, is really creative as well. And so they, they would do wild things like put all our stuff in storage and we'd go on a six month driving trip across Europe and things like that when I was a kid and they, and take us out of school. And that set me up to kind of, yeah, make my own path. But they were definitely pissed when I, yeah, got into comedy and I was, I got heavily into drugs in my teens. And that was a big part of why school was not as fun.

• 13:18Elizabeth Day?

  I want to come back to that.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 13:19Elizabeth Day?

  The, the, the road trips across Europe.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Elizabeth Day?

  Obviously, there's part of me that I'm listening where I'm thinking, oh, how amazing. And there's also part of me which thinks, is that really dislocating? I mean, literally.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Maybe, I mean, I'm, I don't remember that. I was four, my brother was eight and, or maybe I was five. And I remember it really just being incredible. And, and, and we, we were in this little Honda and just the four of us. And, and yeah, I, I probably learned more on that trip than I did in school, you know? Yeah, but they, they were spontaneous. And so maybe there was a bit of chaos there, but I liked that. I, I remember my mom, I always felt like, like there were some mornings where I'd wake up and say, I just really don't want to go to school. And she'd say, okay, let's go do something fun. And I really respect that.

• 14:08Elizabeth Day?

  So was it a creative household where you were encouraged to express your creativity as well?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Definitely. Yeah, yeah.

• 14:16Elizabeth Day?

  What's the earliest thing that you can remember making?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Well, I used to, as a kid, play music with my dad a lot. I remember making tape recordings of us doing duets to Bette Midler songs and things like that. And he was, my dad used to be an actor and he was in Jesus Christ Superstar and things. And so they had a really deep appreciation for the arts and, and things like that. I'm really aware of my privilege in that area and that they would take me to museums and talk to me. And I'm, I'm super lucky.

• 14:45Elizabeth Day?

  And they took you to your first ever stand up comedy show.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:49Elizabeth Day?

  Age 11. What was it about that experience that hit you so deeply?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I, I was already obsessed. I guess they had been playing a lot of vinyl records in the house of George Carlin and Steve Martin. And I was sort of bewitched by it and I, I begged to go for years. And then finally, on my 11th birthday, I went and it was just a really. I felt like that that must be the coolest life on earth. And I was more interested in like the green room activities. What was going on with these people? And were they all dating each other? And were they staying after the show and talking and making each other laugh? And I wanted to be part of that community, I think. And I was all dressed up in the front row and the headliner got me on stage because everyone was commenting that there was a child there. This is when you could smoke inside too.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  So it was a really adult environment and I I just loved it. Yeah.

• 15:46Elizabeth Day?

  What were you wearing?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  I was wearing tartan trousers, Elizabeth, and a suede vest and a little button up shirt. And I had short hair and I looked like a ventriloquist dummy. And so that's what he did. He made me his ventriloquist dummy and and I got a laugh and I loved it.

• 16:03Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, that must have felt incredible.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  It really did, yeah.

• 16:06Elizabeth Day?

  I read somewhere that you said about that show, I just couldn't believe there was this environment where people were being applauded for the weirdest things about themselves.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, I think I I always felt like a bit of a misfit. And I'm sure and I think we'll get into it that. But yeah, I really liked how people would get up and and make fun of themselves in a way that at at school, you know, if someone said something like that to you, you'd be crushed. But if you say it first to an audience and get a laugh and take ownership of it, that's so empowering and it just completely twists everything, especially during puberty for me. And I had braces and acne and I don't know what possessed me to get on stage, but it really helped. Yeah.

• 16:53Elizabeth Day?

  So school, by contrast, was not a place where you felt welcome or included, I guess.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to grade one to nine. I went to an all girls school and I just felt like another species to everyone. And like, I felt like everyone had been born knowing how to what lip gloss to wear and what stationery to use. And I was just trying to catch up and and fit in. And and then and then went to high school and didn't really do sports or anything like like that. So, yeah, I was confused.

• 17:26Elizabeth Day?

  So were you bullied at all?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Not really. Around puberty, there was one year. And then I got in trouble because I I use people's full names in stand up sometimes. And then I got in trouble, but I talked about being bullied by someone. And then I remember them calling me into the because I was maybe I was. Fifteen or fourteen and use this girl's name on television and then they had a big meeting at the school about it. And I thought, I've got to stop using full names. Yeah, but not really heavily bullied. It was just around puberty.

• 17:56Elizabeth Day?

  That's kind of amazing revenge.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  It is. It is. I mean, there's an aspect of everything I do that's about proving those high school bullies wrong, you know?

• 18:06Elizabeth Day?

  Me too.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Don't you think?

• 18:08Elizabeth Day?

  One hundred percent.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  I know. And you think you've outgrown it and you're so above it all. And then you notice that your recent searches on Instagram of people's profiles are all your enemies and your exes. You're like, why am I still looking at these people?

• 18:20Elizabeth Day?

  But fuel is fuel.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Fuel is fuel.

• 18:22Elizabeth Day?

  You know, yeah, it's great. That grudge will fuel me for a lifetime.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah.

• 18:27Elizabeth Day?

  Do you hold grudges?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Um, yes, I do, I think, but I'm trying not to.

• 18:32Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:33Elizabeth Day?

  I massively do.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Do you?

• 18:35Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, just a warning. Just a warning sign.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I won't cross you ever.

• 18:40Elizabeth Day?

  Okay. Talk to me about the drugs, okay? And treat me like a total ignoramus because I am one.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:46Elizabeth Day?

  I, the only drug I've ever taken other than pot is MDMA once.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:51Elizabeth Day?

  And what I loved about it was that it kept me awake.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:54Elizabeth Day?

  Seven AM, I was loving life.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Really? Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 18:59Elizabeth Day?

  How did you, how did you get into drugs? And what were they like for you?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Well, now retrospectively, I can see I was looking for a kind of trap door out of the discomfort of being in my body and my brain. But at the time, I, I started smoking weed with regular kids at school. And then as soon as I started doing comedy, I was in a really adult environment. And at that time in Toronto, there was a lot of coke around. I don't know if there is now. I hope not. But, um, yeah, I started doing, I was dating a much older guy and trying to be cool. And, and yeah, stimulants were really, I mean, I think now I'm, I think I have ADHD and, and I've read a lot about how often

• 19:47Speaker 01

  people self-medicate with stimulants and it kind of puts you in the room and you suddenly feel like your feet are on the ground. And so maybe that was an aspect of it. But I really, yeah, it got quite dark.

• 20:00Elizabeth Day?

  How dark?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Really dark, particularly with cocaine. I think it's such an insidious and powerful drug and I just was so little and it made me feel so confident and must have been giving me something that I wasn't feeling in my regular life. But yeah, it really sort of, that drug in particular, I think can really warp your everything, your moral compass, everything. It just becomes the priority in life. And so, yeah, everything was about that. And I had disposable income because of comedy and I think no 15 year old should

• 20:42Speaker 01

  have cash. It's not good. But then I went to rehab for nine months when I was about 19. And yeah, it was pretty amazing, that experience. Yeah.

• 20:55Elizabeth Day?

  Between 15 and 19, was there anyone who stepped in and questioned what you were doing and sought to protect you?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, in their ways. I think it was the early 2000s. I think there was a lot less fluency around mental health and a lot more focus on the drug itself and like, it must be just pure hedonism that's driving you to do this. And so I think, yeah, there's a lot of tough love and, you know, I sort of got kicked out or left home when I was about 16. And I think maybe it would be different now. But yeah, so there are different tactics. But really, anyone with an addiction problem, I think it has to come from you ultimately.

• 21:46Elizabeth Day?

  How are things with your parents now? It sounds like you have a really good relationship.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I love them so much. It's great. Yeah, we're really, really close now. I mean, they live in Canada and I'm in LA, but we talk all the time. And yeah, I think we both have a lot of empathy.

• 22:04Elizabeth Day?

  You mentioned that you think you have ADHD.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:06Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever gone through the process of diagnosis?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  I have, and I've been diagnosed with it. I don't know why I'm sheepish about it. I think it's because I, how old are you?

• 22:16Elizabeth Day?

  46.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Are you? Okay. So did you, like, growing up, it was kind of? I my parents didn't think it was real and it was kind of like

• 22:23Elizabeth Day?

  No, just so.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  bad parenting was what we thought and it was really like felt like a made up thing. And so, yeah, I do have it and I've been diagnosed, but I don't know. I always feel like if I did I just trick the doctor into diagnosing me? I think a lot of people have that fear. That's what he said. The doctor said, I'm sure you think you've tricked me into diagnosing you. I was like, yeah, I do, but.

• 22:46Elizabeth Day?

  How interesting.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:47Elizabeth Day?

  Are you, given your history with substance abuse?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:51Elizabeth Day?

  Are you medicated for ADHD or is that something that?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  I am, I am a bit, yeah. I am a bit and it's been pretty life changing.

• 22:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And in a way, it's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured and yeah, that that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess.

• 23:16Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:17Elizabeth Day?

  That and escape rooms.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  But I'm wary of it. I know it's easy to become dependent on it and I definitely know people, especially in the States, who are really over medicated and yeah, so I'm careful with it.

• 23:28Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabor Maté.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:32Elizabeth Day?

  Former guest on How to Fail.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Was he?

• 23:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  What a guy.

• 23:35Elizabeth Day?

  I know. Incredible.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Sonorous voice and he's a real presence, isn't he?

• 23:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Elizabeth Day?

  Would you mind reminding us what that definition is?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Sure, if I can remember it. Well, he says an addiction is anything that you you crave.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences. So it's about that, those negative consequences in your life.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:00Elizabeth Day?

  And I think he and he also says that it's very often. No, no, that's totally spot on.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Oh, is it?

• 24:05Elizabeth Day?

  But just given everything we've been talking about, he also says it's it's it can be a trauma response.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  I'm sure, yeah, I mean, yeah. And and he, his work has been so. Mind expanding for me because it was the first time that I've connected other addictive behaviours in my life and I really thought that addiction was just something that drug addicts had and it was all to do with these very addictive substances and you know that once you're hooked, you're hooked. And then when I broadened the definition and thought about, you know, relationships and so many of us have had that experience where you know someone's bad for you or that you're not happy, but you you can't stop fighting for it to, you know, or texting them or our phones or all these self-soothing behaviours

• 24:52Speaker 01

  that we all do. That was really helpful for me to to see that and notice it in other areas and take a more holistic look at my life.

• 25:02Elizabeth Day?

  You use a lot of this hard-won wisdom in Feel Good.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:07Elizabeth Day?

  Which I loved.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Thanks. Thank you.

• 25:10Elizabeth Day?

  I know so many people who listen are huge fans of it as well.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 25:14Elizabeth Day?

  And there's one scene that always sticks in my mind and makes me laugh still thinking about it.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Hit me.

• 25:18Elizabeth Day?

  Where the character has gone to an NA meeting.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:24Elizabeth Day?

  And decided it's not for them.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:26Elizabeth Day?

  And then goes with someone who becomes their sponsor to a coffee shop.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:31Elizabeth Day?

  And it's just such a tiny thing, but in the backdrop, you see at the end of the scene, there's like 800 coffee cups.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Thank you for noticing that.

• 25:39Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I loved it so much.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  That's so nice. Oh, thanks for noticing.

• 25:42Elizabeth Day?

  I suppose I had a question about Feel Good, which is how much co-creating that with Jo Hampson was helpful to you in discovering yourself?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  So much of it. And well, similar to the album, maybe writing that first season, I'd never made television, I'd never acted before. And so I wrote it not worrying about any of that and not thinking, I'll have to actually act these scenes. I just wrote it not knowing what it would be like. And then it was quite harrowing in a really rewarding way, but it was so personal. And so, yeah, it was definitely therapeutic and.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  I was sort of writing this character of myself who was really struggling with gender identity and things like that. And then the first season ended and we knew we were doing the second season that would be the last season. And we knew, okay, we've got to tie this up. And so I guess the character should come to some conclusion about who they are and their addiction. And then that made me have to really introspect and think, okay, yeah, well, how do I feel? Yeah, I was really figuring it out in real time.

• 26:53Elizabeth Day?

  And the interesting thing is, is that I know that in TV, you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a very definite end point.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:04Elizabeth Day?

  But of course, that is not your life.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  No, I wish it was to tie everything up neatly like that.

• 27:10Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second season.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, literally in real time, telling the crew on set, actually, that would be nice if you guys would, like, it was really happening. And I was so lucky to be making it with Charlotte Ritchie, who is a friend. And she was just so, such an amazing support emotionally, in a way that she probably shouldn't have had to be, you know, just as a co-star. But she was, we did a lot of talking and processing. And it was really, really nice.

• 27:47Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine, this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialized treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're

• 28:32Elizabeth Day?

  struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. That brings us on to your second failure.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 28:47Elizabeth Day?

  I am so glad. You're going to talk about this and you put it in this way. Failing at being a boy or a girl.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, well, that's a line in Feel Good as well. In season one, I said, and I felt that way and and do sometimes still feel that way like I because I don't, I'm non-binary and I feel really, really in the middle of of that gender spectrum. And so because we live in such a gendered, binary society that's been so built around those things. Of course, I grew up feeling like I was, yeah, failing at being a girl and failing at being a boy until I was 35 or something, felt like a huge failure going on in the back of my head.

• 29:34Elizabeth Day?

  You say 35, you're now 37.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:37Elizabeth Day?

  So you've had two years of having figured most of it out, would that be fair enough to say?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's an evolving thing, but yeah.

• 29:47Elizabeth Day?

  How does that feel? How have the last two years felt?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Just amazing. It's, it's really nice to be able to. I mean, and sometimes I think, oh, would it be more helpful not to talk about these things because it's, it's not the most interesting thing about me. But then in today's climate, with everything going on in the States, it feels like a really nice and concrete thing I can point to that I am just so much happier. And like this album, for instance, I don't think I would have had the confidence to

• 30:21Speaker 01

  be vulnerable like that and stand on stage, even physically being, taking up that space and being seen like that. So now that I feel like, yeah, I'm presenting the way I have always felt. It's just been, it's just a very happy, positive thing. So it's nice to highlight like, that's really the only agenda that's being pushed here is people just being, being happier.

• 30:46Elizabeth Day?

  I love and appreciate and respect that you're talking about it.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Thanks. I get asked a lot to go on like the news and debate a Republican about whether

• 30:57Elizabeth Day?

  trans people are real.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so I try to stay out of combat of things like that. But it is not, yeah, I think it's important to talk about.

• 31:06Elizabeth Day?

  You've described feeling like a misfit at school.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:11Elizabeth Day?

  But I'm aware how much of it is social conditioning.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  So. Totally.

• 31:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Where's the failure? Because do you actually feel the failure is yours? Or do you feel it's society's?

• 31:21Speaker 01

  No, I guess I'm, yeah, referring to the lifelong feeling I had until so recently, really. And now I, once you start pulling that, that thread and I know it feels like a really recent thing that we're questioning this paradigm around, around gender. But actually, to have such a binary definition of gender is more, is the recent colonial thing. And really, for thousands of years, there's been so much nuance. But I think growing up, maybe because I internalized all those more, well, all the stereotypes of how women should be and how men should be. And I'm not either of those things.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:07Elizabeth Day?

  There was one anecdote that I read about where you were in a school changing room. Do you remember this?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:15Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Would you mind sharing that? It's when you had the towel around your waist.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It was a public pool, actually, which makes it even more galling because it was, yeah, maybe I was eight or something and I was in the changing room of this pool. And I always would wear my towel around my waist like Ferris Bueller when he comes out of the shower and that.

• 32:33Elizabeth Day?

  Great reference.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yes, that was my specific thing I was trying to emulate. And I, I just had this woman in her 40s just screaming at me that I was in the wrong bathroom. And so then I ran out because I was on my own and my dad was in the men's bathroom. And then I, I just remember waiting for him to come out. I'm sitting soaking wet, covered in chlorine in my towel, like in between the two bathrooms. And it was just such a, yeah, I feel that still in, in change rooms. I'm, you know, I don't know which one to use. And if I get challenged by women in the women's changing room, I kind of want to engage in the conversation of like, well, where do you think I should go? Because I.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  You know, I don't really want to be around a bunch of dicks. And can I say that?

• 33:19Elizabeth Day?

  One hundred percent.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Like, I don't really feel safe in a men's bathroom, but I don't particularly want to be in the women's change room either. So, yeah, I'm like, I get it. I don't know either. Yeah.

• 33:31Elizabeth Day?

  Does that still happen to you?

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the time. Yeah. I mean, less because I, I know where I'm safe and I go to those places. But yeah, yeah.

• 33:40Elizabeth Day?

  You've had to have those conversations with?

• 33:42Speaker 01

  No, I have that in my head.

• 33:44Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  That conversation. And I, I know exactly what I would say. But, uh, no, it's more like looks or people whispering or people saying you're in the wrong change room. And I kind of just say, no, I'm not and keep going. And yeah, but it's, I, I just think it's tough for, I've got a pretty thick skin.

• 34:01Elizabeth Day?

  But you're introverted, aren't you? Would you classify yourself as an introvert? Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  I don't know. I really, I think I love attention as well. Yeah.

• 34:08Elizabeth Day?

  I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Really?

• 34:11Elizabeth Day?

  I think I'm an introvert.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:13Elizabeth Day?

  I'd, I'd rather go on stage and do a live show than go to a party with no definite end.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Oh, me too.

• 34:18Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  At, at parties, I, I like to have an activity or a, I don't know, I wrote this list of rapid fire questions. I wrote like hundreds of them that are really fun and I really enjoy doing those because people like it. I, I don't love small talk. I like to get deep.

• 34:35Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:36Elizabeth Day?

  Do you actually have a physical list that you take out?

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yes. It's in a notebook. And then I also took pictures of it. So it's on my phone and it's, it's yes or no and, and either or. And they're rapid fire. I should, I'll do them for you one time.

• 34:47Elizabeth Day?

  I really want to do it.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Shall I do a couple?

• 34:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Okay. So it's just, there's no wrong answer.

• 34:51Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, fine.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  It's just, what does your essence respond to? So it will warm up. So.

• 34:55Elizabeth Day?

  Is that one of the questions?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 34:57Elizabeth Day?

  Cheese.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Cheese. Um, okay. Tortoise or zebra?

• 35:01Elizabeth Day?

  Tortoise.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Feather or snow?

• 35:04Elizabeth Day?

  Snow.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Window or aisle?

• 35:06Elizabeth Day?

  Aisle.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Forgiveness or blissful ignorance?

• 35:11Elizabeth Day?

  Blissful ignorance.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, nice. Yeah. Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise?

• 35:15Elizabeth Day?

  Tom Hanks?

• 35:17Elizabeth Day?

  Always the Hanks. I love these.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:19Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much. I should do a whole podcast of this.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I have hundreds of them. It's, they're really fun. If you have any to add, I'll add them to the list.

• 35:25Elizabeth Day?

  Tom, what about you, Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Well, I'm gonna say Tom Cruise.

• 35:29Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  I don't know. When he cries, I cry in any film.

• 35:33Elizabeth Day?

  He is a great movie star.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  God, he's one of the last.

• 35:36Elizabeth Day?

  And he's an amazing runner on film.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  That run.

• 35:40Elizabeth Day?

  Oh.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  I had to run in this recent show. That should have been one of my failures. They had to stop and say, you're gonna want us to give you this feedback. And you are doing very badly. And I had to keep my, my arms were flailing. I had to keep my arm. He keeps his arms very tight.

• 35:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Is this Wayward, the new show?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:59Elizabeth Day?

  So which sounds fascinating and is based loosely around the troubled teen industry.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:05Elizabeth Day?

  Which I now know about because of Paris Hilton.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:07Elizabeth Day?

  How much of your own troubled adolescence did you put into this show?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Loads, yeah.

• 36:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  I feel like I write a lot about adults who are processing their teens and this was nice to dive into it. I had a best friend when I was 16. It was just a pothead, really. And she got sent to one of these residential troubled teen institutes where they kind of kidnap you in the night and handcuff you and take you there. And it's this whole thing. And she was gone for two years and ended up escaping and hitchhiking and seriously dangerous. And when she got back, her stories were so wild. It sounded so theatrical, almost the therapy they were doing, like you have to dig your own grave and stand in it overnight and things like that and sleep deprivation.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  And so I got really interested in that industry and it's so unregulated and it's, roots are all in in cults and self-help cults in the seventies. And so I sort of, it's a genre show where I've hung this sort of cult thriller.

• 37:11Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Over this teen troubled teen institute. Yeah.

• 37:15Elizabeth Day?

  It sounds brilliant.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Thanks. I hope so.

• 37:18Elizabeth Day?

  Not that this is likely, but if anyone is listening and doesn't understand the importance of pronouns.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:24Elizabeth Day?

  Please really explain why it's important to you.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not as important to me as it is to some of my friends. I I'm really, my worst thing would be that it's a barrier to connecting with someone. And yeah, so I don't, you know, I have friends of my parents and things who I'm like, I'm not, I'd rather just have a nice conversation and not have, you know, because people get so stressed about it. But for me, it's just, um, I don't know, it just feels more accurate. Like, yeah, they, it was an adjustment for me too, though, because I felt sheepish about it. Because yeah,

• 38:07Speaker 01

  I'm not Gen Z. But then the more I used it, it just feels so much more right than than she. It's just a, it's just like if you said, oh, I hate the name Elizabeth, I'd rather you call me Liz. It's like, yeah, then.

• 38:22Elizabeth Day?

  Actually, it's the other way around with me.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  You hate Liz. Yeah, yeah.

• 38:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. But I think you're so right. I think language is profoundly important because language is the first port of call in expressing what we see as the world to each other.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 38:41Elizabeth Day?

  From Simone de Beauvoir onwards, we have been taught not to authorize through language.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 38:46Elizabeth Day?

  And so for me, it's crucial.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  As long as people give it a go, that's, that's really nice. And it's been, it's, I mean, I sort of didn't realize that most of my life, every time someone said she, which was a thousand times a day, probably 2000, it's like someone pointing out the thing about yourself that makes you feel confused or uncomfortable. So it's like, like if you were balding and someone every day was like bald, bald, bald, bald, you know, it's just nice to have a break from it. Yeah.

• 39:18Elizabeth Day?

  How are your parents getting on with it?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  They're coming around. They're, they're practicing. They're good, written down, they're all, you know, in emails and things and they're, they're great and they're really trying. Yeah. Yeah. They said to me, we see you that way. We see you as a they and sort of always have, but it's just a, an adjustment. So I think as long as people don't feel afraid to fail, then it's all good.

• 39:43Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, actually, final thing I wanted to ask you about this. Because you started stand up from such a young age.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:50Elizabeth Day?

  You were being written about and presented in a certain way.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:55Elizabeth Day?

  Was that hard for you because other people made assumptions?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  It's just sort of interesting. Yeah, the first thing that was ever written about my stand-up was, the headline was "Introducing Gay May." And I truly didn't even know I was queer at the time. I was, I was like, oh, I guess that's how I'm coming across. And yeah, so,

• 40:19Speaker 01

  yeah. And it's often frustrating that it's a constant prefix, you know, "non-binary comedian." Or, yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 02

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• 40:41Speaker 01

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• 40:45Speaker 02

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• 40:49Speaker 03

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• 40:53Speaker 02

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• 41:00Speaker 04

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• 41:29Elizabeth Day?

  Moving on to your final failure.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 41:31Elizabeth Day?

  This is failing at stand-up. You say that you bombed at the Edinburgh Fringe at 25, at 4:00 a.m. It's very specific.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm thinking of a particular.

• 41:41Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, tell me about this particular moment.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  A haunting incident, yeah.

• 41:46Elizabeth Day?

  Let me just rake over your trauma.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. It must have been my second Edinburgh Fringe, and I was 25. And they had some 24-hour comedy marathon, which is a terrible idea. It's Edinburgh, the audience was wasted, and they'd been sitting for hours watching comedian after comedian. And really, what they want and were responding to was big, confident, loud comics. That's what I would have wanted as well. And then I came out with my guitar. I was doing musical comedy, and I was wearing the skinniest jeans, like they'd been spray painted on, and just quivering and so nervous. And I think it was... Televised or it was filmed or something. So the pressure was on and somebody I had a crush

• 42:31Speaker 01

  on was there and comedians I recognized and I, as I approached the mic, before I even said anything, someone in the audience, they were dead silent as like the clapping didn't last till I got to the mic, you know, and then someone said, what are you doing last? And I suddenly thought, I don't know what I'm doing. It was so existential. I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. And, and then I just bombed so hard. I mean, it was truly silent. And I, yeah, but there is something kind of beautiful about people bombing. I love watching people bomb now because there's something kind of heroic about struggling

• 43:13Speaker 01

  through that. And, um, yeah, but I mean, that's just one of many times that I've bombed, often when there's someone there that I want to impress or like the one time a family member comes and you just die on stage.

• 43:27Elizabeth Day?

  Because you said earlier, you have a thick skin, but there's part of you that cares.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Of course. Yeah, I cared deeply, but I, it does sort of drive me to, to go back and do it again. And, and yeah, I do, I must love it in a way.

• 43:42Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Well, the thing about bombing, I guess, is that it is feedback.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  It's clear feedback. Yeah. It's only a failure if you, yeah, if you have a really clear expectation of how it's going to go. And if instead you're just invested in the experience and the process, then it can't really feel like a, like a failure.

• 44:06Elizabeth Day?

  Well, what did it feel like in the immediate moments of it happening and the immediate aftermath?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  I think I ran away. I think I even left my guitar there and just went home and just didn't want to see anyone and, um, and thought, oh, maybe I'll get on a train and go back to London. Um, so it felt, it felt pretty cutting, but then it just makes the next good set feel doubly, you know, delicious and reaffirming.

• 44:37Elizabeth Day?

  What gets you out of it though? When you're in that slump and you're wanting to run away to London?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  I think the comedy community and other comics and.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  I talk a lot about my experiences as a teenager. And I know comedy and that community gets a bad rap. And, and, but also it's such an amazing community as well. And it's such a shared experience. And knowing that all my heroes have bombed and talking to other comics and seeing people bomb and um, talking it out. So yeah, I'd say other comedians.

• 45:11Elizabeth Day?

  Because this is what is so profound about it is that you can apply that just to anyone listening.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:17Elizabeth Day?

  Who is feeling like a failure right now, for whatever reason, it doesn't have to be stand up comedy.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:22Elizabeth Day?

  I think that's really good advice. Lean into your community and understand that the next time you'll have acquired some necessary information.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. I mean, with that incident in particular, it was tough because it was a physiological response to terror that caused me to bomb, I think. I was so palpably nervous that it's really uncomfortable for an audience. And, and so that's just something that you've got to put your thousand hours in or whatever and get over that physical response to fear because you can't really think your way out of it. You just have to do it again and again.

• 45:57Elizabeth Day?

  And do you think that that possibility of, of paralyzing fear is also what makes it so exciting and so the thing that you want to do?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  I think that people do comedy for different reasons or anything, any form of self-expression. Some people, it feels like it's because of some, like a chip on their shoulder and that's not the best. But then for me, I'm such a fan, I'm such a fan of so many people and I love comedy still. I go and see it on my nights off and, and I love music. And so that's part of it. And then also, yeah, feeling like I have something to say that I'm just trying to get at and I hope I never quite get there because it's what keeps me trying to say it. I don't even know what really it is specifically, but it feels like there's something I'm trying to say in different mediums and forms. Yeah.

• 46:53Elizabeth Day?

  It's the confusion again.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  It's the confusion.

• 46:55Elizabeth Day?

  The creativity. I think that's so beautifully expressed.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:59Elizabeth Day?

  And do you feel that in the midst of this sort of trying to get somewhere but not being quite clear where, but having something to offer, you, your stage persona is getting closer to the you persona offstage?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  There's pretty much no separation now, for sure. I mean, I'm sure there is. But yeah, I definitely felt audiences responding much more when I, when I dropped that mask a little bit. I think especially now, there's a real appetite for authenticity and people can kind of sniff out when someone's being inauthentic. And so I like that a lot. Yeah.

• 47:38Elizabeth Day?

  How are you feeling about your 40s?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Fucking hell, are we there? Oh my God. I'm, that I'm nervous about. I, yeah, I think a big part of my identity is tied to youth. And that'll be really interesting. I'm, I'm looking forward to tackling that because it's daunting. Yeah. I feel, I'm really aware of mortality and, but I, everyone says it's the best and you know yourself better than ever. And so maybe it'll be great?

• 48:12Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, it will be great.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Yes, it will be.

• 48:13Elizabeth Day?

  You also look very, very young.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 48:15Elizabeth Day?

  So there's that. I had that fear when I turned 30, that no one would ever say to me, oh, you're very young to be doing what you're doing.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Right. Well, especially if you get any kind of recognition for being young, which, and having started it, yeah, when I was 13, that was, like, I had a real carte blanche to fail because I was young. And then, you know, when you're not the ingenue anymore, you've got to just be good.

• 48:41Elizabeth Day?

  But also creativity is constantly about new adventures.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 48:46Elizabeth Day?

  And so you're still growing and learning and you're still an ingenue in that respect.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  That's true. Well, music feels that way.

• 48:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Because it feels really new for me and exciting. And then, yeah, maybe I'll. Make a sculpture one day, I don't know.

• 49:01Elizabeth Day?

  Well, yeah, no, what is next? Hideous question. Are you working on a new album?

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Uh, I am writing some songs. Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty addicted to it, but no, mainly I'm just finishing the edit of, um, Wayward that comes out this year and writing a couple of films with, uh, Joe Hampson, who I made Feel Good with. And yeah, I've got 25 plates that I'm, I, I figure if you just inundate people with things, then something will stick, you know?

• 49:28Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  And so I always have a bunch in development and so much of it goes nowhere. And then the things that resonate push through. Yeah.

• 49:37Elizabeth Day?

  Um, final question. Do you care about legacy?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Not really, because I'll be dead. So I care a lot about what people think. Don't get me wrong.

• 49:46Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  But then I'll be dead. So.

• 49:48Elizabeth Day?

  Do you care a lot about what everyone thinks? Or is it just certain people?

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Everyone.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  I wish that was in the case. Yeah.

• 49:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Although with music, it's, I'm more at peace with music because it's so subjective. And I know that there's great music that I just don't listen to because it, I don't know, it doesn't gel with me. And I don't particularly like The Police, for instance. No, I mean, the band, The Police. Or The Police.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean it's bad music. So with music, I'm, I'm more at peace with, some people are going to like it and some won't.

• 50:20Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Well, to go back to my obsession with cheese.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:23Elizabeth Day?

  I realised relatively recently, there are some people who just don't like cheese.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  That is sick, though.

• 50:28Elizabeth Day?

  Right?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 50:29Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  But those people are wrong.

• 50:32Elizabeth Day?

  I knew I liked you. They are wrong. And I have such a strong opinion about cheese being great.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:38Elizabeth Day?

  And it just really helped me deal with criticism.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I've actually never met someone who doesn't like cheese, but yeah, they must exist.

• 50:44Elizabeth Day?

  That's a very privileged existence.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:46Elizabeth Day?

  Mae Martin, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on How To Fail.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  It's been so lovely. Thank you so much.

• 50:53Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.