508 - Live at Paramount Theatre (Oakland Night 2)

Live at Oakland’s Paramount Theatre, Georgia covers the disappearance and death of Edith Irene Wolfskill and Karen tells the story of scammer James Hogue. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Watch full episodes of My Favorite Murder on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 1:12Georgia Hardstark?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 1:14Speaker 04

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 1:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 1:22Speaker 04

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 1:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:34Speaker 04

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:43Speaker 04

  Goodbye.

• 2:30Speaker 04

  What's up, Oakland?

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, yeah.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  Hell, yes.

• 2:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That was the most. That was the most.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  Hell, yes.

• 2:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 2:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone has a sign that said, "I washed my bangs in the sink for this."

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Thank you. Oh, my God.

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Honored.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Good job. Good job. Thank you, this side of the audience, for letting me yell at you. What a way to start. What a way to start.

• 3:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's foggy in here.

• 3:02Speaker 04

  We definitely are going to have serious ear canal damage after this, too. It's so funny. We really appreciate it.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  We do.

• 3:11Speaker 04

  We do. We love clapping and screaming.

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  At us. Did you spit your gum out right?

• 3:17Speaker 04

  Right before we started. I had it still in my mouth. That's my old trick. It's my old show business trick.

• 3:23Georgia Hardstark?

  We were about to come out and Karen was like, "Oh, fuck. I should probably get this gum out of my mouth."

• 3:26Speaker 04

  I was like, fully chewing gum, right on the edge of the stage. Very unprofessional. Georgia, what did you do today in the Bay Area?

• 3:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, thank you. Yes. I went vintage shopping first. Hate, Upper Hate, is that right? Is the place to be. I went to a place called Relic. That was amazing. And I walked in there, and I don't dress like this in my day to day.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  No?

• 3:56Georgia Hardstark?

  So I walk in and they're like, "Oh, let's not let this girl try anything on."

• 4:00Speaker 04

  Someone followed right behind you the whole time. You're shocked?

• 4:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, but then, you know, it went fine when I was like, I was, I don't know, normal, I guess.

• 4:09Speaker 04

  You acted normal.

• 4:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I acted normal.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  Good, good.

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So that place was amazing. We went to a couple of other places. We went to a pub.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Do you remember the name?

• 4:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It was Vince, what was it? It was something. Monkey.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Mad Dog. Mad Dog? Mad Dog. It was called Mad Dog.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  Oh, The Mad Dog in the Fog.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  The Mad Dog in the Fog. I've fallen down there many a time. Yes.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And they were doing the best thing because, you know, like, when you scroll all day and you hear, you know snippets of songs, like five seconds of songs by heart, and then suddenly the real, like, song starts playing, and you're like, "Holy shit." And they just kept playing fucking, like, Instagram songs, but the whole thing, and I was singing along and, like, mouthing them to Vince and being really annoying.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Yes. At The Mad Dog in the Fog?

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then, we, on the ride home, we decided we're gonna move to San Francisco.

• 5:07Speaker 04

  Uh-huh.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, but-

• 5:10Speaker 04

  She does this a lot. She does this a lot.

• 5:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It was sunny and we were day drunk, so-

• 5:16Speaker 04

  I mean, the life in this town, though.

• 5:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  The life in this town.

• 5:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What'd you do today?

• 5:21Speaker 04

  Well, I'm shocked that the Upper Ha- I just am trying to still process, the Upper Hate coming all the way around, uh, let's see, I left in 94, um, so it's back, baby?

• 5:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucking cool now, you guys. It is.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  It only took 35 years or whatever?

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It was a little gnarly when I lived here, for sure.

• 5:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's, it's, it's hit.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  It's the place to be.

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 04

  And is there a Banana Republic?

• 5:47Georgia Hardstark?

  That shit's gone. I didn't see any of that shit, so. Capitalism!

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Are the rich kids from Marin still pretending they're punks and sitting on the street asking you for money? Which literally was, like, so-

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, Karen's inciting a riot.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  I don't give a shit, man. I had two full-time jobs when I lived in the Upper Hate. I had to pay for that broom closet of a room I lived in. And those kids would, like, be like, "Hey, can I have a dollar?" And I'd be like, "No." And they'd get up and get into a Saab and drive away. And I'd just be like, "Shit." Must be nice.

• 6:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And look at you now.

• 6:23Speaker 04

  Look at me, having the last laugh.

• 6:27Speaker 04

  There's one person sitting in the audience crying.

• 6:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I was like.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  That was me.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm from Marin.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  This deeply hurts me and my rich feelings.

• 6:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And what did you do today?

• 6:41Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  Well, we went into the fairy building.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  And we looked around. All I wanted was a turkey sandwich. You cannot get one there. You can't. You can have a muffelata muffelata if you want to. You can have your own whole charcuterie board built custom.

• 6:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  But they won't serve turkey. They just, they just refuse.

• 7:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't just get a fucking, can a bitch get a fucking turkey sandwich?

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Can a bitch get a turkey sandwich? But we did, there is a really good store with some new things and some old things.

• 7:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Right? It's for the people who don't want to go thrift store shopping. You do it for me.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You got me some Kit Kats from Japan.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  There was a candy store, because if there is a candy store that in any way has set up some Plexiglas containers with scoops, I'm in there with my plastic bag. It's as if I think I have to support this mom and pop business. I don't care if it's full on a corporation, I don't care. But I was going in there like, you don't need that, you don't need that. And then they have this little bag that said assorted Kit Kats from Japan. And I was like, well, I have to get that for Georgia.

• 7:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 04

  So I did.

• 8:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't get you anything.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  It's okay.

• 8:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry. But you know what I did get?

• 8:04Speaker 04

  What?

• 8:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so you know how I'm, I have a nervous nose and I'm just constantly blowing my, like, there's tissue back here from it's really embarrassing. And today, when I was at Relic, they had these for sale. And I'm like, that looks way classier than a fucking nasty ass tissue.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  That and a monocle and you're all set.

• 8:23Georgia Hardstark?

  What I was gonna say is you can have it.

• 8:25Speaker 04

  No, thank you.

• 8:28Speaker 04

  No, thank you.

• 8:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and okay, so when we got back to the hotel after drinking during the day, we saw these people getting out of like a cab clearly from the airport and they were like unloading their bags and this chick had a fucking cooler for her room. And I was like, that's the most insanely brilliant thing I've ever seen.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I love her. And then she goes, Georgia! Like, oh, sure, murderino!

• 8:50Speaker 04

  You're like, yep.

• 8:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Kendra, where's Kendra?

• 8:53Speaker 04

  Kendra.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Fucking right in front. Yes, Kendra. Thank you for your service.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Appreciate you.

• 9:03Speaker 04

  She's like, "I'm so shitfaced, I don't know where I am right now." "I hope this is good, but it won't matter, because I'll be asleep in 15 minutes." Me too.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, oh, speaking of, this is my favorite murder of the podcast.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  That's Georgia Hardstark, that's Karen Kilgariff.

• 9:29Speaker 04

  And you, Oakland, are here for us once again. Thank you so much for waiting six years for us. We genuinely appreciate it.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Very exciting to be here with you again.

• 9:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I was in my 30s last time we toured, and now I'm having hot flashes onstage.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So, it's cool.

• 9:47Speaker 04

  Well, the last time we played here, my niece Nora did a little cartwheel onstage. You may have been here and saw it. She was nine. I thought it would be funny if she came and did it again. She did it, she did it, she didn't. Because she just started college.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  So think about how much closer to death you are now. That's what I'm thinking about. How did that time pass? That like that?

• 10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No, ti- it's just flat time. No, no, it's a circle. It's a circle. It's not flat.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  It's a circle, that's right, yeah.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I always forget which way that goes.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  It's a flat circle.

• 10:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  Like pizza.

• 10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, what else? Should we sit? Oh no, what are you wearing?

• 10:30Speaker 04

  Oh, um, wait, did you do your walk, or you just talked about it?

• 10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I just talked about going vintage shopping.

• 10:37Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So you go.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  I'll go because I don't have pockets, and look, I'm really sorry.

• 10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. You can leave now if you want to.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  Or someone should take that person out, because it means too much to you.

• 10:52Speaker 04

  I got this dress in Spain. That's right. I've been to Europe, Kendra. I've been to Europe. No brag. No brag.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  I forgot that there's ushers here that are like, "What the fuck is this?" I always forget that. So sorry.

• 11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Why are they screaming about pockets?

• 11:11Speaker 04

  It doesn't make sense. They're literally mad there's no pockets. And do you want to give your dress a little spin?

• 11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  This time, okay, last night I realized that this is my... Karen just did this beautiful walk, this like model walk.

• 11:23Speaker 04

  Just now?

• 11:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. My pose of like, "Look what I'm wearing," is this.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I don't know what to do, but anyways.

• 11:30Speaker 04

  TSA. TSA.

• 11:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But tonight I remembered my bra. Last night I did not remember my bra, so it's a win.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  For every...

• 11:40Speaker 04

  You guys are getting the full foundation garment show. This is going to be incredible. Watch the difference. If you were here last night, spot the difference. Tonight. It's going to change.

• 11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like a full cup size. It's so crazy.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  Your performance is going to be incredible.

• 11:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's going to be real perky.

• 11:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, can we talk about the backstage slippers?

• 12:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So we've been, we have this like new tour manager who's not my husband and for the past couple like...

• 12:11Speaker 04

  He's not?

• 12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  For the past couple cities, I've been like, "Oh my God, slippers in our dressing rooms." I've been so excited. I love slippers. I can't go barefoot. I hate shoes. Slippers, yay. But then last night Karen was like, "Oh, those slippers are cute." And I'm like, "Well, you have a pair too."

• 12:26Speaker 04

  I just thought someone was leaving their shoes in my dressing room.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  So I was like, "Ooh, that's creepy. Oh no." Whoever was here before, I guess that's just what they're doing.

• 12:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, is it weird that I automatically was like, "These are mine now."

• 12:42Speaker 04

  But then you were saying we were...

• 12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  We were in Boston.

• 12:46Speaker 04

  Just take your time.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  We were saying that they filmed us when we were in Boston.

• 12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we were doing a secret filming thing that we can't really talk about, but it's very exciting.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  You'll see, or you won't.

• 13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Or you won't.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  You know how show business is.

• 13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It could not happen.

• 13:03Speaker 04

  But Georgia's had her slippers on, not realizing it. So she's like, she had a pair of slippers that said, "Let's go, girls."

• 13:10Georgia Hardstark?

  With like a happy face with a cowgirl hat on. And it said, "Let's go, girls." And I realized that the filming people were filming my slippers as if I picked them out. And that's my personality?

• 13:19Speaker 04

  I did her personality.

• 13:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, I've never...

• 13:21Speaker 04

  It is her personality.

• 13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking kidding me?

• 13:24Speaker 04

  Hold on a second.

• 13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, what?

• 13:25Speaker 04

  I just need, and I hope I'm right about this. I think I just spotted a Hot Dog on a Stick employee in the audience.

• 13:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 13:34Speaker 04

  Could you stand up, please?

• 13:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, stand your ass...

• 13:38Speaker 04

  Would you please?

• 13:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, girl.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  Yes. Hold on, please.

• 13:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen never says nice things about people in the audience, so this is like...

• 13:48Speaker 04

  But you know what?

• 13:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Huge.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  Now I will, because is that a real uniform from Hot Dog on a Stick?

• 13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It is!

• 13:54Speaker 04

  Did you, did you work there?

• 13:59Speaker 04

  She worked at Ceremony, Hillsdale, and fucking Stone Town. Do you understand?

• 14:06Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, are you a regional manager of Hot Dog on a Stick? Like, you must be good if they're sending you around to different malls.

• 14:15Speaker 04

  Say again?

• 14:17Georgia Hardstark?

  They were desperate.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  Do you know that, and sorry to waylay this, but my first seven minutes of stand-up comedy was about the girls that work at Hot Dog on a Stick? Did you know that? And how you guys used to have to squeeze the lemonade in your hot pants with your erectile hats?

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Still good, right?

• 14:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, she had to have stolen that outfit, right?

• 14:45Speaker 04

  Hell, yes!

• 14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Because that's not... You don't get to go home with that.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  You didn't have to pay them 75 bucks for that, did you? No, you just straight up stole it.

• 14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Worth it.

• 14:54Speaker 04

  What's your name? Gina, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. You've done it. Gina's done it.

• 15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that. I love that your eyes were just like, you can't see anything, but then you were like...

• 15:07Speaker 04

  But I was like, "Excuse me." "Someone from my old bit is here. I need to interview her."

• 15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I saw you do that bit in like 2001.

• 15:18Speaker 04

  No!

• 15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  At Largo.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  No.

• 15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I swear to God. Isn't that crazy?

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Little baby Georgia was in the audience?

• 15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at us now!

• 15:25Speaker 04

  I was up there like, "I'm on speed and I have points to make."

• 15:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, should we...

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's stop doing this.

• 15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  Uh-oh.

• 15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Last night, my feet were weird and I like kept... And I was just really aware of where my feet were the whole time, instead of like...

• 15:45Speaker 04

  Where'd you put them?

• 15:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know that... Like, the... This was in the way and so I couldn't do it like that. I also just realized I forgot to put lotion on my legs, so I'm really chalky and gross. So that's fine.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  If anyone has lotion, you please pass it up. That'd be great.

• 16:00Speaker 04

  If it was self-tanner, that'd be even better. For a nice kind of a nylon look.

• 16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Still need the...

• 16:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, you gotta have them. I actually am doing kind of a... In my seat, I was doing kind of a side saddle, Lady Chatterley kind of thing over here. I was just like... Because it's so, you know...

• 16:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I laughed, but I don't know what that means.

• 16:20Speaker 04

  It's a literary reference about a dirty old book.

• 16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Ew, I don't even read.

• 16:26Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 16:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Um... Oh, want to tell them why they're here? What they're doing?

• 16:32Speaker 04

  I know.

• 16:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What's fucking happening?

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Um, this is My Favorite Murder. It's a true crime comedy podcast.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Thank you. Some people don't like that combination, we understand. So to explain, we like to say that Georgia and I cope with our lifelong trauma through the use of humor. That's how a lot of us like to do it. We do not think murder is funny, we just think we're funny. And so, we also became obsessed with true crime at a much too young of an age. And so when we met each other, all of those things collided and we're like, we gotta talk about this. And, I've never done this part before.

• 17:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I love it. Keep going, do it. Go, go, man, I fucking love it.

• 17:18Speaker 04

  Here's our two-woman show, I'm writing it as we speak. Anyhow, um, uh, let's see, what part, where's my line?

• 17:27Georgia Hardstark?

  We think we're funny.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  We think we're funny. Oh, and there's a lot of people that get dragged to this show against their will by their partners.

• 17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That guy has a drag-along shirt on.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Oh, he actually has merch to say he's a drag-along. People don't know what the inside jokes are, and they don't care, and they don't like it, but they love their partner, and that's a beautiful thing. So anyway, if you find that you don't like anything that's going on tonight, we invite you to get the fuck out.

• 17:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for the security guards.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Except for, please don't go.

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Please don't leave.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Please don't go.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's real weird here.

• 18:03Speaker 04

  We'll try to, we'll work on it.

• 18:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Speaker 05

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• 18:34Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are right around the corner, which means people are about to do a lot of shopping.

• 18:39Speaker 04

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• 18:41Georgia Hardstark?

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• 18:43Speaker 04

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• 18:49Georgia Hardstark?

  They power a million Of businesses worldwide, from household names to those that are just getting started.

• 18:53Speaker 04

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• 19:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And Shopify's mobile app lets you run your store from anywhere, from tracking inventory, to customer support, to handling payments and more.

• 19:07Speaker 04

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/murder to start your free trial.

• 19:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Shopify.com/murder.

• 19:14Speaker 04

  Go to Shopify.com/murder today to hear your first

• 19:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 19:21Speaker 04

  Some people know exactly what car they want before they start shopping.

• 19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And for the rest of us, there's Cars.com.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Cars.com helps take some of the guesswork out of car shopping with expert reviews, guides, recommendations, and side-by-side comparisons to help narrow down your options.

• 19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Once you know what you're looking for, you can search for the features that actually matter to you, like blind spot monitoring, smartphone integration, or automatic emergency braking.

• 19:46Speaker 04

  You can also shop based on your budget with financing tools that show real rates and monthly payments, so you can have a clearer idea of what you can afford.

• 19:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Their deal ratings tags let you see how the price compares with similar vehicles, so you can feel more confident about buying your car.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  From research to shopping to finding the right fit, Cars.com gives you what you need to choose your next car confidently.

• 20:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Start your search at Cars.com.

• 20:09Speaker 04

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 20:24Speaker 04

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 20:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  That's why there's Solus Health.

• 20:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Solus provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 20:42Speaker 04

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 20:48Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working With an advocate.

• 21:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 21:05Speaker 04

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 21:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services must be 18 years or older.

• 21:11Speaker 04

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 21:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  That's S.O.L.A.C.E. health.com/murder.

• 21:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  You're first.

• 21:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm first, but it's really scary. Last night, last night I told a story about a ghost blimp and that was like the easiest story I've ever told in my life. It was like this has no stakes. I mean, except for that they disappeared, but tonight is not that.

• 21:40Speaker 04

  Right. You're gonna get serious. They like it.

• 21:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, Marcus, our, our tour manager who took Vince's place, wrote G-Dog on my script.

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So I know it's mine. Thank you, Marcus.

• 21:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. All right, well, listen, today's story is about the eerie disappearance and suspicious death of a wealthy but troubled heiress who went out for a morning walk in 1929 and never made it home.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 22:14Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a story of the disappearance of Edith Irene Wolfskill.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 22:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Is she your great auntie?

• 22:24Speaker 04

  Thank you. You're just like, thank you so much. No one's clapping.

• 22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  The main sources I used for the story are a local, are local news reports by Bay Area publications such as the San Francisco Chronicle.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Hooray.

• 22:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You love it. The Oakland Tribune.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Hey.

• 22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And the Sacramento Bee.

• 22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I think Sacramento's like represented.

• 22:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Hey. After all I've done to you, what a beautiful thing. Thank you so much.

• 23:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm getting hot. Okay. The rest of the sources can be found someday in our show notes.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  In the future show notes.

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  If they ever exist. This might be one of those shows that like just never sees the light of day.

• 23:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Like what would happen? Like what could happen that it would never be?

• 23:18Speaker 04

  It all becomes word of mouth.

• 23:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so to understand this woman, Edith Irene Wolfskill, you have to know that she comes from one of California's wealthiest families. Her grandfather and his brother had been from the Midwest, and they were among the earliest white settlers in California, first near LA and then in the Sacramento Valley. And her, Edith's grandfather, Mathis, not Mateus, Mathis.

• 23:47Speaker 04

  Mathis?

• 23:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Let me see.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:52Georgia Hardstark?

  They did the thing where like, you know, there are all these like people who are like, "I'm gonna hit gold in California."

• 23:58Speaker 04

  Gold miners?

• 23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 24:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And like those people, like, it didn't great, like, go great, but then other people were like, "I'm gonna sell shit to the people trying to find gold," and they got fucking wealthy. Like, that's what happened to them. So they basically became ranchers, cattles, like crops, all this stuff, and ultimately, they wind up richer than most of the miners.

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Can I?

• 24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  Just one thing.

• 24:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 04

  It's cattle.

• 24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  What did I say?

• 24:25Speaker 04

  Cattles.

• 24:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Cattles. I did?

• 24:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Last night was Chio Pino.

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Just a little crab Chio Pino for everybody.

• 24:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds right!

• 24:41Speaker 04

  I really don't wanna do it, but I know it's sometimes fun and you do enjoy it.

• 24:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. I don't care.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Okay, okay.

• 24:47Georgia Hardstark?

  If I cared, I wouldn't be onstage in front of a bunch of fucking people.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  I wouldn't do this.

• 24:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna happen.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  I do love that the plural of cattle is cattles.

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it cattles?

• 24:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  You just threw a little "s" on there for spice.

• 25:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So Mathis's brother, Edith's great uncle William, becomes even wealthier. He gets into grapes and then wine, and his massive ranch will become the ritzy neighborhood of Holby Hills, Westwood, and Bel Air over in, in our neck of the woods.

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Between...

• 25:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Boo.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  You can feel that they're withholding booze.

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're... We're moving here, so it's fine.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're fine. I'm from here.

• 25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So basically, they end up getting enough land to stretch over thousands of acres of vineyards. Vineyards. Orch- orch- orch- orchids.

• 25:37Speaker 04

  Sorry, you know what?

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Orchards.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, you got it. You nailed it. Just don't overthink it. I put too much of a spotlight on it.

• 25:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I did. I'm really like... It's like, can you like get a hot flash by getting, like bring on your own hot flash?

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 25:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. That's Munchausen's wife, Hot Flash.

• 25:56Speaker 04

  Stupid.

• 25:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Basically, that makes them two of the wealthiest men in the state, so congratulations to them.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  To those guys.

• 26:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So by the time Edith is born in San Francisco in 1872, she already has two older brothers. Following in Grandpa Mathis's footsteps, Edith's father, John Wolfskill, is a prominent rancher, and he's training his sons, Matthew and Ney, to follow suit.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  Ney, like what the horse says?

• 26:24Georgia Hardstark?

  N-E-Y. Ney.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  That's rude.

• 26:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Ney, yeah.

• 26:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's a picture of the grandfather.

• 26:32Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 26:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Or the father. That's the father, Edith's father. Got it?

• 26:37Speaker 04

  John Wolfskill.

• 26:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Pioneer of the Sacramento Valley.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  If anyone here can do anything about bringing those sideburns back, it would be great. I'd really appreciate it.

• 26:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I love about this? Like, he's younger than us in this photo. Like, that's absolutely younger than us.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  He has no idea that Korean skincare is coming down the pipe for all of us.

• 27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  He's out in the sun, baking his face. Okay. So that's him. But then they have a girl. Her name is Edith, and she's highly privileged. She's sent away from the home immediately, as soon as she's old enough, to attend finishing school.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 27:17Georgia Hardstark?

  In Europe. As you do.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  In Paris, France, Europe?

• 27:23Georgia Hardstark?

  The sole daughter of John and his wife Susan Wolfskill, Edith is described as beautiful, with brown hair. And, okay, I don't think this fucking exists in real life. I only ever see this in fiction. Cool gray eyes. Gray... Have you ever seen a person with gray eyes before? That's not a fucking thing. Like, go to the doctor. Something's wrong.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  That's when your eyes are about to fail. That's the last. It's the last color before your eyes go out.

• 27:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't buy it.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Completely.

• 27:55Georgia Hardstark?

  They shut off.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  I don't buy that scam.

• 27:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, they're gray. You're gray eyes.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 28:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Congratulations.

• 28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Being one of society, being a society girl, she's written about in the papers as quote, "One of California's prized beauties, her delicate pink-white skin and wide eyes, her long, rich brown hair and fascinating form, AKA she's stacked."

• 28:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, baby.

• 28:23Speaker 04

  Fascinating.

• 28:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Made her the darling of the state's aristocracy. God damn it!

• 28:30Speaker 04

  That was a good one. Aristocracy?

• 28:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. I had this backstage.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  No, you.

• 28:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I swear.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  You practiced so many times.

• 28:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I was trying to hit that stacked line joke.

• 28:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, you got it.

• 28:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, and I did.

• 28:43Speaker 04

  Then everything else went to shit.

• 28:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I think we have a picture of her. Let's take a look. Eh, well, there's a vague.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  Fascinating.

• 28:55Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a vague thing of her.

• 28:58Speaker 04

  No wonder.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  They're just like, okay, can you turn around? We just need to get that ass.

• 29:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, you're not gonna look over here. She had a big zit on that side of her face. I've been there.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  She's like, it's a new thing. I'm gonna look at the back wall. Concentrate on my mom and my ass. It's fascinating.

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  But as lovely and wealthy as she may be, even if it's different when she returns to California from Europe in the late 1800s, so what the fuck?

• 29:29Speaker 04

  Beret, smoking. Fake accent.

• 29:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That, let's pretend. She's starting back peculiar and it's worrying her family. Unfortunately, religious is one of those things. Yeah. Not, you know what I mean.

• 29:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't be mad at me.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  I don't think they're here.

• 29:51Georgia Hardstark?

  But you guys should have seen when we were in Salt Lake City. Like, they woohooed on Mormonism. Like, really fucking a lot of people were like, "Really? Okay." The cool Mormonism.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:01Georgia Hardstark?

  They get Botox.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  They have their own Real Housewives series. They're solid. It's all anyone wants.

• 30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It seems that Edith becomes so obsessed with religion that she kneels in the streets of San Francisco and prays loudly.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  Dirty.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She means the street, not Edith.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So dirty.

• 30:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Shouting scripture at her neighbors out of nowhere.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  Rich people love that. They love it.

• 30:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She frequently announces herself to be the Empress of the World, which, fucking amen.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  I mean, I love it.

• 30:39Georgia Hardstark?

  In a world... By her late twenties, Edith doesn't seem to have any suitors, but... or marriage prospects. But it seems like her family's like, great, because she's very wealthy and they don't want to just like, marry her off to someone who will take advantage of her.

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Right, because she's the Empress of the World.

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, that's hard to match.

• 31:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Excuse me. God damn it. You can't, you can't, you know, you can't be perfect. You have to have one thing wrong with you sometimes. You can't have great feet like these and fucking not... You know?

• 31:13Speaker 04

  This is why we podcast.

• 31:17Georgia Hardstark?

  He had to leave.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  He's like, "I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do this anymore."

• 31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So, her family is so rich and involved that everyone knows it's the Wolfskill heiress who's freaking out in public, essentially. So like, you know, they're just, they're very protective of her, it seems like. And they commit her to California General Hospital in hopes that she can be, quote, "fixed." Those are my quotes. They didn't say that.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  By Dr. William Chapman Ralston Jr., who I bet your mom has talked about before.

• 31:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, every night at dinner. Story after story of Dr. William Ralston Watson Jr.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. So, on two occasions, she wanders from inpatient facilities in Belmont, Belmont in San Francisco, and just kind of like wanders away. But luckily, both times she's found unharmed. At the hospital, she's medicated and supervised until she's allowed to return home to the family ranch in Fairfield. Nobody.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  No one likes the nut tree? Okay.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  You're fools.

• 32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is about 50 miles away. In case you needed directions. And out in the country, she likes to take daily hikes through the hilly trails. It's not a bunch of suburban little boxes at the time. It's like beautiful and nice. Edith lives in a white farmhouse with gingerbread trim and a wraparound porch. It's idyllic. It's nestled among her family's vineyards and peach orchids. God damn it, why can't I do that one?

• 32:51Speaker 04

  You've always been orchard.

• 32:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Orchard.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. Although a peach orchid would be gorgeous.

• 32:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm actively trying to not kill an orchid right now.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 33:02Georgia Hardstark?

  At home, so that might be the problem.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  Don't overwater it.

• 33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm not gonna tell you what I saw on Instagram and how to make it work.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  That you take it all apart and pull the roots out? Yeah, don't do that.

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I did it.

• 33:15Speaker 04

  Did it work?

• 33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucking working!

• 33:17Speaker 04

  No.

• 33:17Georgia Hardstark?

  For the first time in my life, I've seen an orchid bud. I've never seen a bud before. They always just die. No, thank you, but, no, you're right. Thank you.

• 33:27Speaker 04

  You guys will fucking clap for anything. That's crazy.

• 33:32Speaker 04

  A plant bloomed and she gets credit? I don't think so.

• 33:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't kill a plant.

• 33:38Speaker 04

  But actually, it is amazing because I watched someone do that also on TikTok.

• 33:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you see that video?

• 33:44Speaker 04

  And I was like, should I? Because I also have an orchid that I'm trying not to kill. And I was like, I'm gonna do this. I can't risk it. And it was like a whole thing and I was like, I wouldn't risk it.

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna die anyways.

• 33:53Speaker 04

  No, it's not.

• 33:57Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, at least you get those little hair clips out of it.

• 34:03Georgia Hardstark?

  To make this into a positive.

• 34:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Those cute little 90s.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  They go right into the hair.

• 34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Butterfly clips?

• 34:08Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 34:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's living this nice life with peaches. And she loves to go on long walks in the countryside. And she becomes kind of famous around town for these wandering walks. Because a woman wandering on her own, oh my god. She must be wealthy.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  She must be the empress of the world.

• 34:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And Fresno Bee Reporter writes that Edith is known by locals.

• 34:33Speaker 04

  Really?

• 34:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. To be quote, to be a quote, "powerful hiker," and her tall, wiry figure was frequently seen swinging down the hill trails. What, are you swinging? I don't know.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  Is that Bigfoot?

• 34:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at that large person. It's like, kind of insulting. Neighbors view Edith as a little unpredictable, but ultimately harmless, and she might mutter to herself a lot, but they mostly see her standing on hilltops, cupping her hands around her face to see into the distance better. I don't know. Like, "Where's Waldo?" kind of thing.

• 35:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I think, I wonder what, yeah, I wonder what she was looking for. She sounds cool. She sounds like she'd be here if it was now.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, for real, first of all. But also, it's like, what was the problem? She went to Europe. She got the Lord. She tried to talk about it, and everyone's like, "You're insane. Go to a sanitarium." And then her family's like, "You don't have to do that because we're rich. Here's a little house." And you're out by yourself in a field?

• 35:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I could have, you could have just done my whole story.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  I'm so sorry.

• 35:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, you're right.

• 35:44Speaker 04

  Okay. Because it seems, it's like, leave her alone. How about she doesn't have to wear 16 layers of silk everywhere she goes? And she won't mutter to herself all the time, saying, "I'm so fucking hot."

• 35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  My god, it's fucking bra.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  "I had to get 14 ribs removed to put this corset on."

• 36:04Speaker 04

  She's like, "Where are my rights? I can't even vote."

• 36:11Speaker 04

  I was thinking of that the whole time.

• 36:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That was great.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  I just killed two minutes so I could think of that joke.

• 36:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so things take a turn when Edith's father dies in 1913. Edith is in her early 40s, and she and her brothers split his estate of $1.6 million in...

• 36:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No, but that's in 1913 dollars. So, today...

• 36:36Speaker 04

  In today's money, 1.3 million dollars would be somewhere...

• 36:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Six, 1.6. You're like, "It's gonna matter." No, no, I'm telling you, it's 1.6, not 1.3. Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  Oh, I thought you... Okay, you didn't give it away. Is it 10 million dollars?

• 36:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Is it close?

• 36:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 36:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You wanna go one more time?

• 36:54Speaker 04

  Sure. Higher, lower?

• 36:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Higher.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Someone said higher. Oh my god, I love this game show.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  Okay, then I'm gonna say 17 million dollars.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, man, 4.9.4 million dollars. Wait, no, 4.9.4, 4.9...

• 37:10Speaker 04

  Forty-nine?

• 37:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so hot. It's so hot up here.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  How long did you stay at Mad Dog in the fog?

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I took a nap. I swear to god, I took a nap. And that's all that matters.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Forty-nine million dollars?

• 37:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ.

• 37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So, that's the estate, and the brothers, Matt and Nay, no shock to anyone, fucking hate each other. Like, of course they do. They're like, fighting over 50 million fucking dollars.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  It's just like succession.

• 37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. And they're put in charge of their sister's care, which of course is hard because they hate each other, but they actually really love their sister and want to take care of her. So, they're not total dicks.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Good.

• 37:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And Matt and Nay clash violently over control of the profits of that money and management of their ranch, particularly the orchards.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Oh, I need it. I just need applause for editing.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  We all do.

• 38:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Janet really withheld from me.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  She fucked you up.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  That's why we're here, girl. That's why we're here. We worked very hard to get applauded for the word orchard.

• 38:31Speaker 04

  You deserve it.

• 38:31Georgia Hardstark?

  But they basically put their differences apart long enough to make sure that their sister is safe and under the supervision of a live-in nurse as her caretaker. And at the family ranch, at least, she can be taken care of and, you know, contained. But also, it seems like they care about her. Here's a picture of something. I don't remember what.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  Oh, let's see.

• 38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Whatever it is. Put anything up you want.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Picture surprise.

• 38:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You pick. Oh, Jesus Christ.

• 38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's... I didn't mean to do that. Okay. Don't worry about it.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  Million-dollar mystery of the mad heiress.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Good looking out.

• 39:05Speaker 04

  Was it too soon?

• 39:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, but it also was too huge and doesn't matter.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  I liked how big it was. It felt like modern art, kind of.

• 39:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, what you... Do you see up close, what you see far away? It's like a different...

• 39:18Speaker 04

  It's a dolphin.

• 39:21Georgia Hardstark?

  So, on July 14th, 1929, a 57-year-old now, Edith, leaves the house around 7:00 a.m. for her regular morning walk. It's a cool summer day, so she wears a light dress, maybe not all her silks.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And her housekeeper plans to see her return in time for lunch. Remember, she's, like, famous for her strolls. That's insulting. Walks, you know? Stroll, hikes.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  Oh, you can't do a stroll? Oh, she can only stroll.

• 39:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She's fucking walking. Like, let her live.

• 39:52Speaker 04

  Let her stride, even.

• 39:55Georgia Hardstark?

  But Edith isn't back by lunch, and she's nowhere to be found on the trails or in town. And because her family is so prominent, the response to the nurse's call to the sheriff is, you know, they're a friend of the family, it's pretty quick. And knowing that Edith's eccentric appearance may have attracted attention... Remember, she's not wearing all her skirts.

• 40:12Speaker 04

  Oh, that's right.

• 40:14Georgia Hardstark?

  The sheriff suspects that someone who knew she was both vulnerable and from a rich family might have kidnapped her. And so the deputy is assigned to stay at the house and keep watch for anyone who might drop off a ransom note. Like, that's her immediate suspicion. But nobody ever comes with a ransom note. Hundreds of people descend on the ranch and case the grounds. Edith was seen every single day. And there's just eerily no sign of her whatsoever, not on the ranch grounds. Man, Ally just really wanted to fuck with me by putting "or..."

• 40:47Speaker 04

  She really just keeps putting it on...

• 40:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not gonna say that anymore.

• 40:51Speaker 04

  Did you ever go to Orchard Supply Hardware?

• 40:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Orchard Supply Hardware.

• 40:55Speaker 04

  That could help you.

• 40:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Orchard.

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Just think of that.

• 40:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, thank you.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  I'll get you a pneumatic aid that fixes this problem by the time the story's over.

• 41:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Appreciate you.

• 41:05Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 41:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So basically, they look everywhere. They can't find her. Neighbors and local townspeople join the search. Dogs, horses, everyone is looking for her because this is very... what?

• 41:15Speaker 04

  Dogs and horses?

• 41:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, man.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  This way, Rusty. After you, lady.

• 41:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like on their own accord.

• 41:23Georgia Hardstark?

  This is weird. Yeah. Nay, remember Nay?

• 41:26Speaker 04

  Nay.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  Nay is out there.

• 41:30Georgia Hardstark?

  There's some joke there. The Los Angeles bank where most of you, this money is kept, puts up a $1,000 reward for information leading to her being found. Do you want to, or should we just...

• 41:40Speaker 04

  $58,000?

• 41:43Georgia Hardstark?

  18. It's fucking... this is... it's never satisfying. It's never right, and it's never satisfying. Anyway.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  I like it.

• 41:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We saw the photo. It's a big old thing. And...

• 41:58Speaker 04

  This is the time where Georgia kinda doesn't want to do her story anymore.

• 42:04Speaker 04

  You know, you saw that.

• 42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't like going first. I don't know why.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  It's tough.

• 42:09Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. You just got power through it.

• 42:18Georgia Hardstark?

  What's really funny is you can always tell because my glass is always empty by the end of the show, and Karen's isn't. It's like, who gets nervous and who doesn't?

• 42:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 42:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So there's some tips. Someone says they spotted Edith in the town of Red Bluff, which is more than 100 miles... Nope, nobody. North of Edith's home.

• 42:41Speaker 04

  They're trying to rep Red Bluff back there. We love it in Red Bluff.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  But there's always like wild goose chase tips, and nothing comes to fruition. And so basically, with Edith having been missing a whole week, the weather gets much hotter, it's the middle of summer, and the concern is that Edith could not survive in such conditions without food or water. And, you know, at night, we know it gets really cold as well, and she wasn't wearing A lot of layers. So meanwhile, her brother's Matt and Nay are forced into close proximity over the course of the investigation, which they don't like to do. And they have screaming matches in the sheriff's office in front of newspapers. Like, these dudes, they're like the Gallagher brothers, like Oasis, which they can't even, you know?

• 43:30Speaker 04

  Nolan Liam are in with the sheriffs. I like that the journalists are there, where it's like, if everyone could meet, well, my brother and I fight, that would be great.

• 43:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I hate you so much that I can't not yell at you in front of a place that's gonna tell everyone we're yelling at each other.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  They're immediately turn around, right?

• 43:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. And so, basically, Nay blames his brother for hiring the nurse that Edith ran away from, saying it's the nurse's fault that she ran, and it's his brother's fault for hiring him. And Matt, on the other hand, believes that Edith has been kidnapped, and so they're just arguing about what happened to her, and neither of them know. And it's not cool. So, basically, despite all the sightings and efforts put into finding Edith, she's still not found by the end of summer, and people begin moving on from what has become a harrowing and really strenuous, weeks-long search effort. Until September 19th, a little more than two months after Edith disappears, the 18-year-old

• 44:28Georgia Hardstark?

  son of a neighboring rancher is walking along a dried-up creek bed. Yeah. Looking for a stick to knock fruit off the trees. It sounds illegal.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what we like to do out in the country. It's stick time, we say to each other. And then we search and search in the creek bed.

• 44:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And then this part is why they hate us.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:53Georgia Hardstark?

  When he finds Edith's body.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  Oh, shit, sorry.

• 44:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why everyone hates us.

• 44:57Speaker 04

  I was about to say, shouldn't do a character right before you're about to do this. That's on me.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  It's badly decomposed, and this leads Sheriff to wonder if Edith's body could have possibly been in this one spot since she died. But the creek bed is about a mile and a half from Edith's house and has been searched many, many times since Edith's disappearance two months prior. So it seems that the only possible explanation is that Edith's body had been brought there sometime after her death. Ugh. Right? Like, they couldn't have just not seen it, right? Since the most thorough searching was done in the week after her disappearance, another theory is that maybe she was alive for a week and wandering and then died in the spot, either at someone's hand or of natural causes.

• 45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And at the same time, a deputy sheriff says that that spot had been searched at least 50 times. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's very mysterious. But in many weeks after her disappearance, and by different parties every time. So, yeah, it seems like that there's a disagreement on, like, when people actually search that area, but it's enough times to be like, it's not two times, it's 50 times. Right. That's math. That is simple math. So it's possible that Edith died at this spot, in the spot of natural causes, but she would have to have been somewhere else during the roughly two-week period when the highest number of people were looking for her.

• 46:29Georgia Hardstark?

  But, basically, duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. Okay, so Edith's cousin, Reed Wolfskill, recalls looking in that exact spot almost two weeks after Edith's disappearance. And Reed, along with another cousin, is the one to identify her body via clothes and shoes found near her. And, so at this point, Edith's brother, Nay, who had thought Edith had wandered away and it was the housekeeper's fault, he changes his mind and agrees with his estranged brother, because it just doesn't make any sense that no one would have found her. Right. He thinks foul play is involved, and, basically, it's very strange, and, you know, that they think someone had been trying to keep her hidden until she

• 47:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And strangely, Edith is not wearing the shirt and skirt she left home in. Instead, she's wearing brown men's overalls, described as the kind mostly worn by carpenters. And there's a handwritten note in her pocket. So basically, they have to do a chemical process to find out what it actually says, because it's so worn. But it says, quote, "Do not give anything..." dot, dot, dot. "Do not show sympathy..." dot, dot, dot. "Do not speak to any nurse..." dot, dot, dot. "Do not speak magic. Walk out. Sleep only in the daytime and drink water. Bathe before I dress. Use gifts. Shun all change." Right? Like, there's no way you're decoding that.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  Or she's writing a song.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  But, hold on. Do you think there's a possibility this is like a list to herself? And she went out in disguise?

• 48:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It seems like, yeah, maybe she's trying to escape. Like, maybe there's more to her captivity than just keeping her at home, right? Like, maybe they're actually keeping her captive.

• 48:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And so, there's not a lot about the handwriting and whether it was hers or not written. But about a day later, investigators discovered that signs that someone has been living in a shack on the ranch, bordering the Wolf's Kill property. The owner of the property had thought that the cabin had been abandoned for years. But on the stove, there are eggshells and other food scraps, as if someone had been living there.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  We haven't seen scrambled eggs here in 25 years.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? Thank you.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  I had to do it.

• 48:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You did, and I appreciate you. The bed looks like it had been recently slept in. And on the walls, various phrases have been scrawled. And they look like religious words and phrases that Edith often wrote on her walks, on fences and stuff. Another neighboring rancher, I mean, this is so stupid, says that on July 17, three days after her disappearance, when everyone is looking for her, he heard a woman's screams coming from the cabin. And just didn't do anything about it. Just nothing.

• 49:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So, the mystery of whether Edith was living in the cabin, which seems likely, and whether she was alone or held there, we don't know. But prior to her disappearance in recent years, she had always returned home from her hike. So it's not like she was totally held captive. She was allowed to roam as much as she wanted. So, three surgeons examined Edith's body, and at least one of them, Dr. A.A. Berger, your best friend.

• 49:49Speaker 04

  My best. Bestie.

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  He disagrees with the theory that there's foul play involved, and because none of her bones are broken, and she hasn't ingested any poison, and both he and a pathologist named A.M. Moody, what's with all these?

• 50:05Speaker 04

  It was all initials back then.

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Actually find a blood clot in her brain.

• 50:10Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Alright, so, they say she could have died of natural causes, but it doesn't explain how she got to the spot where she was found after they had already looked there. And, but any evidence from the overalls is inconclusive. I mean, they're not doing hardcore science on those overalls back then.

• 50:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, "Shake 'em out, nothing, great."

• 50:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's forensic files back then.

• 50:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, shake 'em out, and then read the runes of the dust on the ground.

• 50:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 50:41Georgia Hardstark?

  So, basically, a couple months later, the Solano County coroner concludes an inquest into the cause of death, and that Solano, you guys like Solano?

• 50:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. They're literally doing it to every city and county.

• 50:56Georgia Hardstark?

  But I want it. I want the cheers.

• 50:58Speaker 04

  I know, I know.

• 50:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And the verdict is death from cause unknown. I think there's another photo. Let's take a look at this picture, if there is. There, that's her. That was her then.

• 51:09Speaker 04

  That was her.

• 51:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm telling you, I'm older than her. There's like...

• 51:12Speaker 04

  She's 38.

• 51:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 51:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all botox and filler.

• 51:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Over here.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  Wait, do we think that the blood clot in her brain had something to do with her behavior?

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That would be my stupid, random guess. You know? Yeah, for sure.

• 51:32Speaker 04

  It would be my very educated, yeah.

• 51:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet, right?

• 51:36Speaker 04

  I mean, it'd be interesting to know. I got that from an episode of Law and Order. Someone's behavior changes.

• 51:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It'd be really interesting to know. Unfortunately, I'm telling this story for My Favorite Murder, which means we don't fucking know.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right.

• 51:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And then by the time that her verdict, her cause of death, is released, Edith's brothers seem to be ready to just let go. They don't make any public contest to the findings. Nay and his wife accompany Edith's body to Los Angeles, where she's buried in a plot next to her parents. And the brothers battle it out over how to manage Edith's estate, because she did have a chunk of that. And they were looked into, and they didn't need her portion of the estate. And it seems like they hated each other but cared about her. So after a month, they agree to put a trust company in charge of what she left behind, which is somewhere between, in today's money, nine and $18 million. I know.

• 52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And because she was worth so much, some speculate that it was her brother's, but it doesn't seem... I just said that. It doesn't seem like it. And that's the story of the unexplained disappearance and death of Edith Irene Wolfskill, the Empress of the World.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  The Empress of the World.

• 52:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 52:57Speaker 04

  Crazy.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  Just slam it down.

• 53:03Speaker 04

  That was great.

• 53:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Am I okay?

• 53:05Speaker 04

  Everything's great.

• 53:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  Now, where do you...

• 53:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Kendall!

• 53:11Speaker 04

  Where do you...

• 53:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Kendra?

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Kendra. Where do you... If you were gonna go apple picking, what would you walk through to do that?

• 53:18Georgia Hardstark?

  A field.

• 53:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Of trees, a cops of trees.

• 53:22Speaker 04

  Oh, someone reads books.

• 53:27Speaker 05

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• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are right around the corner, which means people are about to do a lot of shopping.

• 53:59Speaker 04

  And if you have a small business, they could be shopping with you.

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Get your business ready with Shopify.

• 54:03Speaker 04

  Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable holiday selling season at every stage.

• 54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They power millions of businesses worldwide, from household names to those that are just getting started.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Shopify's pre-built website themes make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking store without ever touching a line of code.

• 54:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And Shopify's mobile app lets you run your store from anywhere, from tracking inventory, to customer support, to handling payments, and more.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/murder to start your free trial.

• 54:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Shopify.com/murder.

• 54:35Speaker 04

  Go to Shopify.com/murder today to hear your first

• 54:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 54:41Speaker 04

  Some people know exactly what car they want before they start shopping.

• 54:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And for the rest of us, there's Cars.com.

• 54:47Speaker 04

  Cars.com helps take some of the guesswork out of car shopping with expert reviews, guides, recommendations, and side-by-side comparisons to help narrow down your options.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Once you know what you're looking for, you can search for the features that actually matter to you, like blind spot monitoring, smartphone integration, or automatic emergency braking.

• 55:06Speaker 04

  You can also shop based on your budget with financing tools that show real rates and monthly payments, so you can have a clearer idea of what you can afford.

• 55:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Their deal ratings tags let you see how the price compares with similar vehicles, so you can feel more confident about buying your car.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  From research to shopping to finding the right fit, Cars.com gives you what you need to choose your next car confidently.

• 55:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Start your search at Cars.com. Goodbye.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 55:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 55:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 55:55Speaker 04

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 55:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 56:03Speaker 04

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 56:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 56:25Speaker 04

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 56:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 56:37Speaker 04

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder.

• 56:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 56:45Speaker 04

  All right, we're just, let's get through my story real quick and get out of here.

• 56:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We're all busy.

• 56:53Speaker 04

  My story starts in the late 1980s.

• 56:59Speaker 04

  When I was at my prime.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, what's this?

• 57:02Speaker 04

  Let's take a look.

• 57:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, that's right.

• 57:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen. Billie Eilish could never, I called her the wrong name.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  Wow. Meanwhile, in Orange County.

• 57:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know what she's gonna do.

• 57:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so funny. Today, she texts me and she's like, "Is it okay if I have then send a photo of you? And you're not gonna know what it is, but I'm gonna put it up."

• 57:44Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 57:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you trust me, basically? And Vince was like, "I don't know what to do." "No, no, go back. I wanna see little Georgia."

• 57:51Speaker 04

  He nailed it.

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he was like, "I don't wanna embarrass you," or anything.

• 57:57Speaker 04

  I think that's perfect.

• 57:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, it's his mammoth, right there, I think?

• 58:01Speaker 04

  You're in mammoth, wearing a mammoth sweatshirt. I'm trying to seriously graduate from high school with all my eyebrows intact.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, that makes me wanna cry. I don't know why.

• 58:14Speaker 04

  I just thought I'd really ground us and center us at the top of this story.

• 58:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  Okay, thank you. So, this does start, we make our way back to the Bay Area, but it starts at Princeton University in New Jersey, if you've ever heard of it. "Admissions officials receive an application that they take note of. It's less a formal application and more of a glorified note, sent by a 17-year-old student named Alexi Santana. And in it, Alexi paints a romantic picture of his life in Utah, herding cattle by day and reading Plato by campfire at night, sleeping outside under the stars with his horse, named Good Enough, by his side."

• 58:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Ouch. Right? Good enough? This just sounds like the beginning of Legally Blonde.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  We'll see. What if I just read you the script of Legally Blonde? I'm like, "And good night." So, there's no teacher recommendations or list of extracurricular activities that are included in this. Apparently, that's what you do when you submit for college.

• 59:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Good to know.

• 59:19Speaker 04

  There's not even a high school transcript, but Alexi does include a newspaper clipping from a track meet that he's won. And then Alexi explains that his difficult life circumstances, an absent father, and a deathly old mother who needs his constant care have kept him from traditional schooling. He actually claims that he's never once... set foot in a school and that he's entirely self-taught. And yet, he has higher than average SAT scores and a clear athletic talent. The Princeton officials are amazed. And in the end, Alexi is not only admitted to Princeton, but he's given a $20,000 athletic scholarship. But he has to defer for a year because of his sick mother.

• 1:00:04Speaker 04

  But in the fall of 1989, he finally arrives on the Princeton campus. But what no one at Princeton knows is that this brilliant, philosophical, athletic young cowboy named Alexi Santana does not exist. And the Alexi that who shows up on campus to begin matriculation.

• 1:00:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that word.

• 1:00:24Speaker 04

  I just threw that in there.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good.

• 1:00:26Speaker 04

  Is actually a 29-year-old drifter with a criminal rap sheet and a history of the same con that he's already pulled right here in the Bay Area. This is the story of the college con man, James Hoag.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Love a con man.

• 1:00:44Speaker 04

  Love a con man story. So, some of the main sources used in this one are David Samuel's deep-dive article for The New Yorker entitled "The Runner," which ran in... Thank you for getting all the way down on the ground.

• 1:00:57Georgia Hardstark?

  She also ran when you were saying "The Runner," which is pretty cool.

• 1:01:01Speaker 04

  That is "The Runner" right there. David Samuel's deep-dive article "The Runner," which ran in The New Yorker in 2001, a New York Times article by James Barron and M.A. Farber, and a Denver Post article entitled "The Con Artist Next Door" by Nancy Lofholm. So, James Hoag is born in 1959 in a working-class neighborhood in Kansas City, Kansas. And from the beginning... Sure. Two things... From the beginning, two things are pretty clear. James is smart and he's obsessed with running. He's very good at it, so much so that he sees running as his ticket to a higher income bracket.

• 1:01:43Speaker 04

  His dream is to parlay his incredible athletic skills into a scholarship to a top-tier college, which will then lay the foundation for his future success. One childhood friend named Keith Mark will later... The two first names, my least favorite thing in the world. Will later describe James as quote, "One of the smartest kids that I've ever known. A very good polite kid, never in any trouble, trained all the time, had a tremendous gift to run, literally the best runner. He could have been Olympic class. He had big time talent is what he had."

• 1:02:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  End quote. Is what he had. But Keith, actually, the full end of the, the end of the full quote is, includes this important line, quote, "But when we were in high school, James was very much an individualist and he did not like to be told what to do."

• 1:02:38Georgia Hardstark?

  No shit.

• 1:02:39Speaker 04

  I mean, hey.

• 1:02:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Join us.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  Join us, James. So from a young age, James resists and rebels against any authority and he seems to have a bit of an ego as well. So now it's 1977, James enrolls at the University of Wyoming. No one?

• 1:02:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody lives there.

• 1:03:00Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:03:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's nobody lives there.

• 1:03:03Speaker 04

  So he's made it on the varsity cross-country team as a freshman. It's his dream come true. And actually, the University of Wyoming has been investing in its track program and recruiting the best young runners from around the world. Come, live in Wyoming, run.

• 1:03:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Run away.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  So for the first time in his life, James is actually struggling to keep up. The other recruits are way faster than him. He starts practicing harder, he pushes his body to the point of injury, and his friends can tell that it's all getting to him because he seems to get really down on himself. But they also notice that he's suddenly got a bunch of stuff like medals and bicycles and stereos that he never had before, and it is, at the very least, suspicious. So now James is around 20 years old. He's a sophomore, he's in his sophomore year of college, doing very well in classes. You did great, no one noticed.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  But he's still struggling on the track. He competes in a regional track meet. He finishes, this one's a heartbreaker, 226 out of 250 runners.

• 1:04:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You just don't even want to compete.

• 1:04:16Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:04:17Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, at that point.

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  And he takes his running very seriously, so obviously this is devastating. This is that kind of thing where like you're in high school and you're like, "God, I'm so good at this thing," and then you step one foot out into the real world and you're like, "I'm fucking terrible at everything."

• 1:04:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what Los Angeles is full of. It's really hot people from their hometown who come to LA and then it's like the most beautiful people you've ever seen in your fucking life.

• 1:04:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're just cute.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're the neighbor. You become the neighbor in the sitcom.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  You're cute and you're like, "Maybe you can tap dance a little," and other than that, everyone's a supermodel and they're like a quadruple, triple threat.

• 1:04:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:04:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. Listen, we'll explain Hollywood to you. Just give us a second. So, now, I said, "Da, da," and he's doing, okay, so out of 250, he comes in 226.

• 1:05:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:05:12Speaker 04

  Not long after this, James drops out of school completely, and then he resurfaces down in Austin, Texas, where he enrolls at the University of Texas, nope, with a major in chemical engineering.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, he can do chemical engineering and he's like mad at running?

• 1:05:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:05:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, "I can do neither of those things."

• 1:05:33Speaker 04

  And he's still depressed.

• 1:05:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 1:05:35Speaker 04

  We've got to look on the bright side, guys. Who are you, Karen? So, he also joins the track team, and he's getting excellent grades, but he is not doing well at track. UT's head recruiter, James Blackwood, will remember, quote, "He wasn't a bad college runner, probably better than average, decent, but I think he thought he was better than a lot of guys on the Texas team. Then he got out there with them and they ran him into the ground," end quote.

• 1:06:08Speaker 04

  So, in 1982, James's five-year eligibility to compete in NCAA events expires, effectively ending his college running career. But instead of focusing his energy on getting his degree in chemical engineering, which was what he was doing and apparently good at, he gets really depressed, and the next year, he's caught stealing equipment from a local bike shop. So, he's arrested, and this is his first documented run-in with the law, but it is not his last. So, he drops out of UT with only a couple credits left for him to graduate, and then he just disappears.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  How many credits do you still need to grow up?

• 1:06:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I almost have my associates in very many, many things.

• 1:06:57Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:06:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So I was like, no, I don't want to do that.

• 1:06:59Speaker 04

  I'm gonna switch it. Hold on.

• 1:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Speaker 04

  What about cooking?

• 1:07:04Speaker 04

  Okay, so about two years after this, in late 1985, James is now around 25 years old and he resurfaces. This time it's at the enrollment office of Palo Alto High School. Also known as Pally. And James is now claiming to be 17 years old.

• 1:07:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:07:26Speaker 04

  He tells them that he is an orphan named Jay Mitchell Huntsman, and he has an incredible story. He claims he was born in San Diego, but raised on a Nevada commune and, right? All of it. And he says he's entirely self-educated, this is gonna sound familiar, and a disciplined athlete who runs upwards of 60 miles a week. That part might actually be true. He also claims both of his parents have recently died in a car accident, but he still wants to work towards his diploma while putting his running skills to use on the school's track team. He plans to hopefully get admitted to Stanford University in a couple of years, which happens to be, which happens to be right across the street from Palo Alto High School.

• 1:08:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, so he was just like, you know what? Let me start over.

• 1:08:14Speaker 04

  Yes. Let me start over. In high school, in high school. So, uh, he can't let the track dream go.

• 1:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:08:25Speaker 04

  Obviously.

• 1:08:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Me neither.

• 1:08:27Speaker 04

  Um, right? You'll do it someday. So, and it's kind of weird because he could have had a degree from college in chemical engineering, but he's, he's going back to basics.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Buck those knees up.

• 1:08:38Speaker 04

  That's right. So, the good news is, James's scheme totally works, and people buy this story. Even though he looks a bit older than he claims to be, his classmates and teachers just shrug it off. One faculty member actually tells reporters later, quote, "As a teacher, I thought it was rude for me to even think that he was older, even though he was very thin and you could see the shadow of his beard."

• 1:09:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, now this is that Drew Barrymore movie, where she goes back to, right?

• 1:09:10Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:09:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Same.

• 1:09:12Speaker 04

  If she loved jogging. Okay. So what's important is that 25-year-old James is now running high school track again, and this time he is killing it, of course. He got his second chance as Jay Huntsman. He crushes the first competitive cross-country race that he is enrolled in, so much so that he gets write-ups in a local newspaper about it.

• 1:09:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, don't do that.

• 1:09:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:09:38Speaker 04

  But one sports reporter from a newspaper called the Peninsula Times Tribune, which doesn't exist anymore, that journalist named Jason Cole is there that day, and he's a little skeptical. He has this nagging feeling about this very mature-looking student, so he decides to do some digging, to the point where he actually requests a copy of Jay Huntsman's birth certificate from the city of San Diego. And that's when Jason learns the real Jay Huntsman died in infancy more than a decade earlier. So although he can't explain the why here, Jason is positive that Pally's newest track star is actually a grown man.

• 1:10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  God, how creepy would that be?

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  It's the best. I love it so much. It's the kind of thing where like, it would be like a weird dream slash nightmare I would have, where it's like, I'd be in high school and people are like, "Hey, you going to the dance?" I'm like, "I'm 42. What are you guys doing? I can't, I shouldn't be here. Where are my pants?" So while journalist Jason Cole works on this expose, James is living life as an orphaned high school track star, and the Pally community just embraces and supports him. In October of 1985, he wins the Stanford Invitational High School Cross-Country Race.

• 1:10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  See, if you want, you can't win, you know? You have to keep a low profile. You got like, 4th place, you know?

• 1:11:04Speaker 04

  Nope, not the 225th place. He's gonna win every single chance he gets.

• 1:11:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:11:10Speaker 04

  And this is actually described by one reporter as, quote, "The most prestigious high school race in the country."

• 1:11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  For an adult.

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  For an old man.

• 1:11:22Speaker 04

  But only days after that victory comes Jason Cole's byline.

• 1:11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Man, got a snitch.

• 1:11:30Speaker 04

  As it appears in the Peninsula Times Tribune, and it says...

• 1:11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-oh.

• 1:11:36Speaker 04

  It's pretty close. Mystery Runners History.

• 1:11:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's a snappy title.

• 1:11:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. Is there any way we can get these pictures from a little further back at all? We may have, we made it, that could have been us uploading them that way, for sure. Okay, so basically that says, "The Mystery Runners History", and it exposes James, and it posits that he stole Jay Huntsman's identity after seeing the birth and death dates on the headstone. One of James's old friends from Wyoming is interviewed in this article, and he describes James as, quote, "mischievous", before adding, quote, "But I thought he would have grown out of it by now." So what do you mean? He's only a junior.

• 1:12:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Ouch.

• 1:12:22Speaker 04

  So, before they have a chance to expel him, James drops out of Pally, and he's like, "No, no, I'll see myself out." And in the end, authorities decide not to press charges. White. But the community he leaves behind is stunned. An article in Pally's Verde magazine, this is a high school so rich they have their own magazine.

• 1:12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:12:47Speaker 04

  And they report, quote, "His teammates all liked him. They were pretty upset that he pulled their chain, that he pulled their chain when he left. It wasn't like they hated him from then on. They were just really disappointed that he wasn't what he said he was, and that they had been bamboozled."

• 1:13:04Georgia Hardstark?

  That was Karen's voice, for sure.

• 1:13:06Speaker 04

  She's like, "I'm a journalist from Pally's magazine, Verde, and we're pissed about Jay Huntsman being not real."

• 1:13:19Speaker 04

  Just to give you a sense, this is what Jay Huntsman James looked like claiming to be a 17-year-old.

• 1:13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, please.

• 1:13:28Speaker 04

  We should have put that up earlier. It's gonna be close, I bet.

• 1:13:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I would.

• 1:13:32Speaker 04

  No. Hey. Hey, Darcy. Hey, Darcy, do you have your homework? Can I borrow your homework?

• 1:13:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But he looks like James Spader. And he does look like an 80s teenager. Like movie teenager, you know what I mean?

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  He does have a little Vince Avril in him, too.

• 1:13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. He totally does.

• 1:13:56Speaker 04

  He's got an 80s Vince, old-school style.

• 1:14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And Vince would wear that shirt.

• 1:14:02Speaker 04

  "Hey, do you guys wanna meet in the quad for lunch? No dad, get away from us."

• 1:14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, they probably just thought he was a narc, right?

• 1:14:13Speaker 04

  This was years before 21 Jump Street. I think, though, it's like when people are super into running, you're like, "Yeah, I guess that's what he looks like, I don't know."

• 1:14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that what it is?

• 1:14:25Speaker 04

  Just out in the sun, I guess.

• 1:14:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That fucking looks like my husband, Jesus Christ.

• 1:14:30Speaker 04

  We'll have to do a side-by-side. Okay, so, a few weeks after he exits himself from Pally, he gets caught writing a bad check while buying contact lenses. So he pleads with the shop owner and says, "I promise that I'll come and pay you back. Just please don't have me arrested." Shop owner's like, "You're a good kid from the track team." And James skips town and never pays that shop owner back.

• 1:15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Man.

• 1:15:00Speaker 04

  "But we're gonna make a donation tonight." Months later, he resurfaces in Vail, Colorado with a whole new song and dance. This time, he gets himself a seasonal job at a cross-training camp, the kind where rich people pay to train alongside champion athletes. But this scam is not what you think it is. This time, James has sold himself as Dr. James Hoag with a PhD in bioengineering.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:15:28Speaker 04

  Out of, you guessed it, Stanford University. That's right. No one notices until 1987, a couple of years later, when an old acquaintance of his from back in Austin learns that James is employed at this camp as a doctor and reports him.

• 1:15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck that guy. You know? Like, how do you know while you were in Austin, he didn't get a fucking doctorate?

• 1:15:51Speaker 04

  I mean...

• 1:15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Dick, like, and what is it? Snitches, man.

• 1:15:54Speaker 04

  I think snitches get stitches for sure, but don't you think James, like, stole something of his? And you're just like, there's that fucking guy that took that really good stereo I loved.

• 1:16:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Speaker 04

  Or something.

• 1:16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Or he's a doctor. What's that thing when they pretend?

• 1:16:08Speaker 04

  Stolen valor?

• 1:16:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. That's the one.

• 1:16:11Speaker 04

  Stolen Dr. Valor. Okay. According to the camp owner, when James is confronted about this, the camp owner says, quote, "He didn't say much. He didn't say too much. I don't think he ever admitted he wasn't who he said he was. He never apologized. It was like, hey, I got busted. I'll go somewhere else and scam them." End quote. You've got to interview people like this at your newspaper. If you have the power to do this. That's a good quote.

• 1:16:41Speaker 04

  Because that's just what James does. Within months, he's drifted to San Diego. And in October of that year, he burglarizes a bike... He burglarizes the bike shop his roommate owned. So he shows up in town, gets a roommate. "Nice to meet you. Cool, we like the same movies." Whatever. "Will you share your, like, frozen dinners with me?"

• 1:17:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:05Speaker 04

  "Best friends." And he goes and burglarizes his bike shop.

• 1:17:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man, come on.

• 1:17:08Speaker 04

  And he steals about 20 grand in tools and bike parts.

• 1:17:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:17:13Speaker 04

  Which is, in today's money, worth...

• 1:17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it, 80?

• 1:17:15Speaker 04

  It's 87.

• 1:17:16Georgia Hardstark?

  87, and today's money, 20 is 249.

• 1:17:19Speaker 04

  It's $56,000.

• 1:17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn it, I told you!

• 1:17:25Speaker 04

  And then he skips town. And he goes to the southwestern Utah city of St. George, and he starts working there as a bike mechanic with all of his roommate's stolen equipment.

• 1:17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so dick.

• 1:17:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That is just...

• 1:17:40Speaker 04

  But within a year of setting up shop there, another cyclist notices that some of James's tools have a different guy's name engraved on them.

• 1:17:50Speaker 04

  So, once again...

• 1:17:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not Schwinn, or whatever?

• 1:17:53Speaker 04

  Hey, you didn't say your name was Schwinn.

• 1:17:57Speaker 04

  So he gets narked on as well.

• 1:17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:17:59Speaker 04

  And when officers searched James's home, they find a lot of stolen property, as well as evidence that he's been applying to Ivy League schools again, this time, under the name Alexis Santana. So now we're back at the beginning.

• 1:18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, how did he get that name? He picked it out of a, like, birth month favorite?

• 1:18:18Speaker 04

  Band.

• 1:18:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Band.

• 1:18:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:18:23Speaker 04

  Whatever. I wanted that to sound like "smooth," but it didn't.

• 1:18:29Speaker 04

  We can't clear it, anyway. Alexi Santana. It's... that's a name you come up with when you are stoned.

• 1:18:37Speaker 04

  So the good news is Alexis has been accepted to both Princeton and Brown.

• 1:18:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:18:42Speaker 04

  But he's decided to go to Princeton. He actually got in.

• 1:18:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:18:45Speaker 04

  So, these plans are put on hold, remember back at the beginning, because his very deathly ill mother was sick, and so Alexis had to defer for a year.

• 1:18:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I remember that.

• 1:18:55Speaker 04

  This was when James was arrested and convicted on possession of stolen property charges, and sentenced to five years in prison.

• 1:19:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my sick mom.

• 1:19:03Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:19:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oops.

• 1:19:04Speaker 04

  My sick mom in prison.

• 1:19:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 1:19:06Speaker 04

  Here's the good news: He's paroled after 10 months.

• 1:19:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 1:19:11Speaker 04

  So, you'd think a prison sentence would derail the whole Ivy League fantasy league plan, but Alexis Santana has his explanation ready to go, so it's all fine. Princeton buys it and allows James to quietly complete his prison sentence. They don't realize they're doing that, but... So then, in the fall of 1989, 29... 19-year-old James arrives in New Jersey campus as freshman Alexi Santana, ready for the 89, 90 school year, but traveling across state lines as a violation of his parole. And this violation triggers a warrant for his arrest. Unfortunately, Utah authorities have no idea how to find him.

• 1:19:54Speaker 04

  So, on Princeton's campus, freshman Alexi Santana, he's shy. He's a little awkward, but there's something about him.

• 1:20:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God. We would totally have dated this fucking idiot.

• 1:20:07Speaker 04

  We would absolutely be like, "I don't know, he's just so old-looking."

• 1:20:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He's so mysterious and old-looking.

• 1:20:14Speaker 04

  And old-looking.

• 1:20:19Speaker 04

  So his classmates mostly like him, they just kind of can't follow his life story. The New York Times reports that Alexi, quote, "seemed so unflappable that hardly any of his classmates asked about his apparent discrepancies in the stories he told about himself. He told some students that he was an orphan, others that his mother was dying," end quote. But hey, let's not get bogged down in details. What's important here is that Alexi maintains a loaded class schedule, gets great grades, and gets invited to join some of the most exclusive university clubs. Because he's a man.

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  But most importantly...

• 1:21:02Speaker 04

  It was like Bob Dylan is here to boo Alexi Santana. Thank you. Most importantly, Alexi has quickly become the most, one of the most talked-about athletes on the Princeton track team. He's back, baby. So in February of 1991, Alexi participates in the Harvard-Yale Princeton Track Meet in New Haven, Connecticut.

• 1:21:24Georgia Hardstark?

  What kind of snacks are at that?

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  I mean, it's little finger sandwiches with no crust.

• 1:21:30Speaker 04

  Finally, "All of his track-based, reality-denying underage dreams are coming true," I wrote. But, there's a snag. A runner from one of the other schools is a polygraduate, and they recognize... "Alexi? Alexi? Why aren't you talking to me, Alexi?" Oh, his name wasn't Alexi at that other school. They recognize this new Alexi Santana as the old Jay, whatever his name was. That's really James Hoag. And she immediately calls reporter Jason Cole, who reaches out to Princeton.

• 1:22:04Georgia Hardstark?

  The old guy from the back.

• 1:22:05Speaker 04

  That's right, the old journalist. It's like, I don't know about that beard that you have. He breaks the news, the weird news to Princeton. So in the middle of class, the cops walk into his lecture hall and dramatically arrest James and take him away in handcuffs. You're not young.

• 1:22:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone's running for reelection that year. And has to...

• 1:22:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. You go make an example of that super weird old guy. He's charged with violating parole, forgery, wrongful impersonation, and falsifying records. And he is able to post bail incredibly. Sold some of his stolen stuff. While awaiting trial, he is allowed to relocate to Cambridge, Massachusetts.

• 1:22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:22:56Speaker 04

  Where he starts taking classes at Harvard Extension. He won't stop.

• 1:23:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's funny how hard I tried to get away from college. And this fucking guy can't stay away.

• 1:23:08Speaker 04

  He's like, "Assign me something long and difficult." Okay. At one point, he's hired to catalog precious minerals and gems for the college. And these people are supposed to be fucking smart. While he's working there, about 50 grand worth of gems go missing from Harvard. Worth around...

• 1:23:30Georgia Hardstark?

  50 grand, you said? About 930.

• 1:23:34Speaker 04

  120,000.

• 1:23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck. You go too high and you're stupid. You go too low and you're fucking wrong.

• 1:23:42Speaker 04

  This is, it's a, it's a humbling practice.

• 1:23:47Georgia Hardstark?

  This podcast?

• 1:23:48Speaker 04

  This podcast, this whole situation. And life.

• 1:23:53Speaker 04

  There also an expensive microscope and a chair with the Harvard seal imprinted on it go missing.

• 1:23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh yeah, can I just sell this at a pawn shop?

• 1:24:01Speaker 04

  Right. But actually, the police find all of these items in James's room. Okay. So he's again arrested, he's charged with even more crimes. He's found guilty on four counts back in Princeton, so he's he's found guilty on those charges. Now he's found guilty for these thefts at Harvard. For all these crimes, he serves somewhere around two years.

• 1:24:23Speaker 04

  Put up the picture of big white head again. And then a couple of years after getting out of prison in 1996, James is back in the news for going back to Princeton and posing as a geology student named Jim MacArthur.

• 1:24:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Guy.

• 1:24:39Speaker 04

  He's like, hold on, this time I'm gonna wear my sweater a little bit, little bit tighter, collar up. British accent.

• 1:24:50Speaker 04

  He is arrested for trespassing, although it does seem like those charges were dropped in 1997, the following year. He lands in Teleride, Colorado. By now, nah-uh. By now, he's in his late 30s, working as a carpenter and a contractor courting the very ritzy clientele that lives there. His passion is still running now, can't get can't get rid of that jogger in him. He becomes known for always, literally, running around town.

• 1:25:22Speaker 04

  So even though he is trying to live a lower-profile life, his story has actually become widely circulated at this point, and he's actually kind of famous. In 2001, writer David Samuels pens a deep dive on James for The New Yorker. 2003, filmmaker Jesse Moss makes a documentary about him called Con Man. Jesse was a student at Pali while Jay Huntsman went to school there.

• 1:25:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:25:47Speaker 04

  So, so James, he works in telly ride for a while, running around town. He's the contractor everybody wants to hire. Until he's caught after a woman accuses him of stealing her throw pillows.

• 1:26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:26:03Speaker 04

  What? She's like, "Their contractor was here to give me a bid on that crack in the floorboard."

• 1:26:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That my nasty throw pillows are gone?

• 1:26:11Speaker 04

  And now my throw pillows are gone. So she, no joke, goes to his house to confront him.

• 1:26:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, don't do that.

• 1:26:16Speaker 04

  And at the front door of his house, she looks past and her throw pillows are on his couch.

• 1:26:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that is the weirdest thing to steal. Like, what, did he shove them up his shirt?

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  I mean, and you can, here's the thing, you can do anything you want with them. Because they're yours now, you've stolen them.

• 1:26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 1:26:33Speaker 04

  Fair and square. So, this leads to a search of his property. And per an article from the Denver Post, officers find, quote, "A storage locker and a horse trailer crammed with enough fine and odd stolen items to stalk a flea market. Among them, moose antlers, medical books, stuffed bears, bicycles, red silk high heels."

• 1:26:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 1:26:58Speaker 04

  Rare wood, copper pans, power saws, and chilled champagne.

• 1:27:05Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 1:27:05Speaker 04

  They would add up to nearly 7,000 items and top $100,000 in value.

• 1:27:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's just like a klepto?

• 1:27:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or like, he likes to remember things.

• 1:27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, sentimental. Oh, that's nice.

• 1:27:18Speaker 04

  He's an old softie. And he loves throw pillows. Again, James is arrested and sent to jail. He's released in 2012. Things are quiet for a while, but then in September of 2016, James is caught building what newspapers describe as an illegally constructed camouflaged shack on public land, right on the side of a Colorado mountain.

• 1:27:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you have a picture?

• 1:27:42Speaker 04

  Can we take a look at the shack? Oh, it's real close.

• 1:27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man, that's some Unabomber shit right there.

• 1:27:48Speaker 04

  Right? Now, listen, so, when the officers show up to arrest him, he bolts out a back door. There's more than one door in this shack.

• 1:27:58Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:27:59Speaker 04

  Never forget the chemical engineer inside of James.

• 1:28:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:28:02Speaker 04

  He's not a dumb man.

• 1:28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  The back door of your creepy shack.

• 1:28:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. He's like, um, let's see, I'm gonna put a door in the front. We've got our side door where I can run out the next time I'm arrested. He goes on the lam for two months and he's caught again a month later trying to build another shack not far from the first shack.

• 1:28:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:28:24Speaker 04

  Think we can look at that second shack? There it is. He's started.

• 1:28:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's less of a shack and more of a lean to.

• 1:28:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, the thing is, he was trying to figure out where to put the third door on this one. And then he was like, god damn it, the cops are here. During this arrest, police fined seventeen thousand dollars on his person as well as evidence proving that he'd sold around seventy thousand dollars worth of stolen goods on eBay. Because now he's updated his act for the digital age. James is convicted on a handful of new charges and sentenced to six years in prison. Officers working on his case will describe him as, quote, "a man of brevity, only responding to the detective's questions in a few short words. He didn't seem malicious, but he did paint himself as a victim of the government

• 1:29:13Speaker 04

  and of social hierarchy and class structures."

• 1:29:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:29:18Speaker 04

  Perhaps. Like, you mean school class structures? His long history of deception was masked by a pale, aged, and relatively small-framed body. And more than anything, he loved to run.

• 1:29:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That literally is the end of that quote.

• 1:29:36Speaker 04

  And can we look at that picture? This is him, um...

• 1:29:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Aw, man.

• 1:29:40Speaker 04

  There he is.

• 1:29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks like a teenager.

• 1:29:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Little, little tox, little botox up here.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  "Hey, Bobby, do you have a date to the winter formal?" That's me and my crazy hair and eyebrows. And he runs, runs, runs away. In 2019, James Hoag is paroled. As far as anyone knows, he's living somewhere in Colorado. Do you think he came to our Denver shows?

• 1:30:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:30:08Speaker 04

  He impersonated a murderino. He pointed at people, "You're a drag-along," whatever. He's still on the radar of police and reporters, and every so often, he resurfaces in the news. The last big sighting seems to be in 2021, when Aspen police respond to a burglary at an apartment building. But James is not the burglar. Officers incidentally catch him illegally siphoning electricity with an extension cord from one building's exterior outlet into his car. Yes!

• 1:30:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, I didn't know that's illegal. I would do that.

• 1:30:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just out there. Put a fucking lock on it.

• 1:30:47Speaker 04

  As one of the many judges who's encountered James Hoag puts it, quote, "I've heard nothing about any mental health issues, or substance issues, or other explanations for his pattern of behavior, other than this is a lifestyle of a career criminal, from what I can tell," end quote. But his MO is certainly fascinating. James seems to be motivated by a unique combination of financial gain, a deep, recurring desire to reinvent himself, a misguided need to stick it to the man, and of course, his ultimate passion, finding the opportunity to run competitively against teenagers.

• 1:31:25Speaker 04

  To some, to some, James has, we're so close. To some, James has almost become a mythical literary figure. Back at Pally, for example, teachers have paired The Great Gatsby with the David Samuel's New Yorker piece on James, which is hilarious and insane. And director Jesse Moss, the Pally alum who made the documentary Con Man, has evoked this same comparison, saying, quote, "I love that James, like Gatsby, was able to transcend his low birth to attain this high position, but he was, like Gatsby, brought low. I think that makes it an extraordinary American story, and that's the story of serial scammer and one-time Bay Area high schooler, James Hurley."

• 1:32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 1:32:15Speaker 04

  Thank you. Love a scammer.

• 1:32:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Love a scammer.

• 1:32:19Speaker 04

  We've always had fun with scammers.

• 1:32:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Your own scammer.

• 1:32:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we have time for a hometown?

• 1:32:24Speaker 04

  Hometown, everybody.

• 1:32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  We have five minutes for a hometown. Oh, here's Vince.

• 1:32:29Speaker 06

  Where's Stone?

• 1:32:30Georgia Hardstark?

  There he is. It's James Hogue, ladies and gentlemen.

• 1:32:34Speaker 06

  Hi. How are you? How's it going? Hi.

• 1:32:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi.

• 1:32:38Speaker 06

  Two tremendous shows. Great job.

• 1:32:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:32:44Speaker 06

  I realize since we're in this neck of the woods, I just want to point out how much we really love It's It Ice Cream Sandwiches at our house. Guess they want to send them in a box over.

• 1:32:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, that's right. Anyone from It's It here?

• 1:32:57Speaker 04

  Hey, the It's It people.

• 1:32:59Speaker 06

  But in the meantime, I'm going to be over under that exit sign to pick up whoever you choose.

• 1:33:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, Vince. Thank you. Oops, thank you. And I guess we're at a hot dogs, so we have a fuck politeness koozie.

• 1:33:09Speaker 04

  Oh, yum. That's nice. Hey.

• 1:33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, okay.

• 1:33:13Speaker 04

  Who can earn this?

• 1:33:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell them about it.

• 1:33:15Speaker 04

  Okay. This is the part where someone tells a hometown as we learned that first night in Denver. Do not come up here talking about some other city in some other state. No one wants to fucking hear that shit. It should be, it should be Bay Area.

• 1:33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Northern California.

• 1:33:33Speaker 04

  Northern California.

• 1:33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Central, central northern.

• 1:33:36Speaker 04

  We had a real good reading one last night. She did great. Don't be so drunk you can't tell your own story. It needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. And ultimately, just really be yourself. Okay.

• 1:33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, who's got a hometown? Don't point at anyone. You fucking swear to God you're very confident. Okay, go. Go find Vince.

• 1:34:01Speaker 04

  That was a mistake. That was a huge mistake.

• 1:34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Look over there, my Spanx are writing up.

• 1:34:06Speaker 04

  She stood up and then turned to the rest of the audience, did muscles, and squatted. We're fucked right now. We're fucked.

• 1:34:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This is what, you gotta do it next time.

• 1:34:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:34:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I hate it. I hate, I hate picking people. It's heartbreaking. Stupid.

• 1:34:23Speaker 04

  Well, and also, they get real mad.

• 1:34:24Georgia Hardstark?

  They get so mad at you.

• 1:34:25Speaker 04

  They get really mad.

• 1:34:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, here she comes.

• 1:34:28Speaker 04

  Here she comes.

• 1:34:31Georgia Hardstark?

  She scurried. Oh, she's the scurrier. She's the, okay, we like her.

• 1:34:35Speaker 04

  We like her, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Hi Sydney, like Australia. Sydney. Sydney, everybody. Say hi to Sydney.

• 1:34:46Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 1:34:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 1:34:48Speaker 04

  How's it going?

• 1:34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, great. How are you?

• 1:34:51Speaker 04

  Are you a weightlifter?

• 1:34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, I am now.

• 1:34:54Speaker 04

  No, no, just because you did that pose. When you got picked, you did that pose.

• 1:34:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm ready.

• 1:34:58Speaker 04

  Oh shit, yeah you are. Where are you from, Sydney?

• 1:35:02Georgia Hardstark?

  We flew in from Phoenix, Arizona.

• 1:35:05Speaker 04

  Oh my god.

• 1:35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We love you guys and we're so happy you're here.

• 1:35:09Speaker 04

  We're so scared for you right now, Sydney.

• 1:35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, I'm scared for myself. Yeah, so, okay, so, pretty, pretty local, Bay Area adjacent. Can we go Lake Tahoe?

• 1:35:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, that works.

• 1:35:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fair. Is that cool?

• 1:35:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I thought so. This is my mom's story. This is a two-part awful, terrible, shitty story that happened to my mother.

• 1:35:32Speaker 04

  Oh my god.

• 1:35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Awful, terrible. So, first part of this story. My mother grew up in Lake Tahoe. So she is about 17 years old. 1973, 1974, Lake Tahoe. So she's walking down the street, she's going to her friend's house, walking. And then, a man comes up from behind her and grabs her. Grabs her, pulls her into his vehicle. She like fights him, she's like, "Hey, fuck you, you piece of shit." Gets her, she's 17, she's a baby. I'm 29, teeny tiny baby. I look like I'm strong, she was stronger then, at 17. So, grabs her, pulls her into his vehicle.

• 1:36:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know if it was a van, don't know if it was a car, but basically, she's fighting him off. And then, gets into his vehicle and she's like, "Fucking, you piece of shit." Throws her in, slams the door and she's like, "Alright, I'm gonna get out." She reaches for a door handle and there's no door handle.

• 1:36:32Speaker 04

  Oh no.

• 1:36:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's like, "He has done this before." And she's like, "Cool, so now this is like, my life." And so, this piece of shit takes her back to his house. And is like, "Okay, you're gonna like be here." And so he like beats her and like sexually assaults her multiple times, over multiple days. Awful, terrible. But, my mother, she's very smart. And she's like, "Hey, I'm like a human."

• 1:37:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm a human, which like kinda doesn't relate to some serial offenders. Some of them it does. And she was like, "I would love to be your girlfriend." "I'm really, I'm really into you. You're really cool." And so he's like, "Cool, awesome." So he like beats her, sexually assaults her over multiple days. And she was like, "I would love to see you after this, cuz I'm really into you." And like breaks her ribs, breaks her cheekbone, piece of shit. Awful, terrible. It ends up with a good story. Kind of. Take my word. Um, yeah, and so then he's, she's like, "Yeah, I just like need to like get back to work." "I need to work, I have a normal life, I have a normal job."

• 1:37:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's like, "Cool, so you'll like see me after this, right?" And she's like, "Yeah, I would love to see you." So he lets her go. She's like, "Buh, bada bing bada boom, I'm fucking out! I'm out, get me the fuck outta here." So she dips and she's like, "Fuck you, you piece of shit." Tells the police, "Police never catch him." And I'm like an armchair like sleuth. I've like tried to pin 1970s, like California crimes to someone. She's into true crime, which is why I got into you guys. She very much baptized me by fire, which is why I'm here. Um, yeah, and so never fucking found the guy. Awful, terrible, but... Second part of the story, happens in LA.

• 1:38:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, not as local, we can go boo, Los Angeles. California. Yeah, California, not northern, sorry, LA, boo. So, my mom, a few years later, after living through this, she is like walking down the streets. She's going to go buy cake mix for her friend to go bake a birthday cake for her friend. She's walking down the street and she, we from, we're from Phoenix. And she's like, "Okay, first time we ever experienced a haboob." She's like, "It was like this level of visibility, fog, can't see fucking shit." Nothing. And she's walking down the sidewalk. And she's going, she's 17, she's like, "Cool, we're going, gonna make a birthday cake."

• 1:39:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And then she's walking by this ravine and this guy, again, comes up from behind her, snatches her, pulls her down into this ravine. And she's like, "Fuck you, you piece of shit. This is not fucking happening again." "This is not gonna happen again." And she fucking fights him and he's like trying to pull her down, trying to like sexually fucking assault her again. We're a beautiful fucking family. And she's like, "No, fuck you." And so she fucking fights this guy off and is like, "Hate you, awful, terrible human." And so she's like, "Fuck you," gets away from this guy, uh, goes to the police and is like, "Hey, uh, again,

• 1:39:59Georgia Hardstark?

  some other piece of shit, probably straight cis man, tried to fucking sexually assault me." Uh, awful. They fucking find the guy, they catch him, and he is like a serial, violent, sexual fucking, um... Predator. Predator, thank you. That's, that's the word. Sexual fucking, like, serial. And now he, because of my mother, he is in prison the rest of his life.

• 1:40:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:40:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And I, and I'm here. I'm here so, so, so long because of like the strength of my mother.

• 1:40:36Speaker 04

  Great job.

• 1:40:37Georgia Hardstark?

  "It's not gonna happen again." That's right. That's right. And this is not happening to me in my life.

• 1:40:42Speaker 04

  Sydney, everybody, let's hear for Sydney.

• 1:40:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 1:40:46Speaker 04

  Look what you got.

• 1:40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:49Speaker 04

  Don't worry about it.

• 1:40:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean. Thank you.

• 1:40:52Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:40:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  Yes, thank you so much. Phew. Wow, amazing.

• 1:40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, Oakland, night two. You guys...

• 1:41:01Speaker 04

  We've done it.

• 1:41:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Did it?

• 1:41:03Speaker 04

  We've really done it.

• 1:41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you for supporting us on this little tour that we're doing six years later after we were like, "We've been ma- thank you, we've been waiting to do this for so long and it's been so scary, but everyone's been showing up and really, really loud."

• 1:41:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And supportive. And your community that we love and appreciate so much. So thank you guys for coming. We love you. Stay sexy. And...

• 1:41:40Speaker 04

  Thank you, Oakland. Thank you so much.

• 1:41:45Speaker 04

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:41:54Speaker 04

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:41:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 1:41:59Speaker 04

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo.

• 1:42:01Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:42:03Speaker 04

  Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

• 1:42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:42:09Speaker 04

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:42:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:42:17Speaker 04

  Or you can watch us on YouTube. Search for My Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 1:42:29Speaker 04

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:42:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:42:41Speaker 04

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including DisgraceLand, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:42:57Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:43:00Speaker 04

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.

• 1:43:06Georgia Hardstark?

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