Could You Live on Another Planet? & Why Vet Bills Are So High

No one enjoys being in a bad mood. But it turns out that feeling a little down may actually put your brain in a surprisingly useful state. In fact, certain kinds of thinking and decision-making may improve when you’re feeling a little low. https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2017/05/why-bad-moods-are-good-for-you--the-surprising-benefits-of-sadne Could humans really live on another planet or is it just science fiction? We have already begun living beyond Earth—astronauts have spent decades aboard space stations. But what would it really take to live permanently on another planet? The challenges go far beyond rockets and habitats. Scott Solomon, professor at Rice University and author of Becoming Martian: How Living in Space Will Change Our Bodies and Minds (https://amzn.to/4rAAIsd), explains how low gravity, radiation, and isolation could fundamentally alter the human body and mind—and whether we could truly adapt. Podcast: WildWorld with Scott Solomon https://www.youtube.com/@wildworldpodcast If you’ve taken your pet to the vet lately, you’ve probably felt the sticker shock. Costs have climbed, wait times can be long, and many pet owners struggle to access timely care. Why is this happening? Joe Spector, founder and CEO of Dutch (www.dutch.com), explains the forces driving rising veterinary costs, why many pets go untreated, and how telehealth is emerging as a potential solution for more accessible, lower-cost, non-emergency care. –-The segment is sponsored by Dutch Pet Inc. -- Use promo code: sysk for $40 discount off membership. It feels satisfying to squeeze every last drop out of a tube of toothpaste or bottle of shampoo. It feels smart, even virtuous. But does that tiny bit you recover actually make any meaningful difference over time? https://www.consumerreports.org/money/saving-money/easy-ways-to-control-spending-and-save-more-a1037905516/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS POCKET HOSE: Text SYSK to 64000 for your two free gifts with the purchase of any Pocket Hose Ballistic hose! DUTCH: If your pet is still scratching and you’ve tried everything at the pet store –it’s time to stop guessing and go prescription. Support us and use code SYSK for $40 off your membership at ⁠https://Dutch.com⁠ RULA: Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that’s actually covered by insurance. Visit ⁠https://Rula.com/sysk⁠ to get started. QUINCE: Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.dom/sysk ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! SHOPIFY: See less carts go abandoned with Shopify and their Shop Pay button! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ EXPEDITION UNKOWN: We love the Expedition Unknown podcast from Discovery! Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 0:30Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, the surprising upside of being in a bad mood. Then, the idea of living in space may sound like science fiction, but it's actually closer and more complicated than you think.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, like if we're talking about truly living in space, like, you know, moving to another place to live, it assumes that human reproduction is possible. And we actually don't know if that's the case.

• 0:58Mike Carruthers?

  Plus, is squeezing that last little bit of toothpaste out of the tube actually worth it? And what's being done about the high cost of veterinary care? And it is high.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Veterinary costs are double US inflation. You know, it's simple supply and demand. So you don't have enough veterinarians and you have a lot more pets. So that's kind of the biggest reason for price increases.

• 1:25Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know. Now here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping? Especially with the holidays coming. Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in shop cash. But not to one person. A thousand people will each win $1,000 in shop cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place. So instead of bouncing around from website to website,

• 2:10Mike Carruthers?

  you can search across stores, find what you're looking for, and track your orders all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with 1,000 chances to win $1,000,

• 2:29Mike Carruthers?

  I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 2:54Speaker 04

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today. Something You Should Know. With Mike Carruthers.

• 3:07Mike Carruthers?

  Say, if you're in a bad mood, that could be good news. I'm Mike Carruthers. That's what we're going to start with today on this episode of Something You Should Know. So having a bad day may not be all bad. Research suggests that a mildly negative mood can push your brain into a more careful, detailed, focused mode. People in that state have been found to be less gullible, more skeptical, better at spotting errors, and sometimes more persuasive in written arguments than people who are in an upbeat mood. The idea is that when you feel good, you rely more on mental shortcuts.

• 3:49Mike Carruthers?

  When you feel a little down, you process information more systematically. Now, that does not mean that being miserable is better overall, or that depression is somehow helpful. It just means that for certain tasks, like fact-checking, editing, evaluating claims, or making careful judgments, a slightly grumpy mood may actually help. And that is something you should know.

• 4:18Mike Carruthers?

  Living in space. It may sound like science fiction, or something for astronauts, or the movies. But living in space is already happening. People are living on the International Space Station right now. And plans to send humans back to the moon, and eventually to Mars, are well underway. The real question isn't can we get there? It's what happens to us when we do? Because the human body was built for this planet. Gravity, sunlight, even the bacteria around us, all shape who we are and how we function. Take that away and problems emerge.

• 5:00Mike Carruthers?

  So what would it really mean to live in space long term? Not just survive, but actually live there? Well, that's what we're going to discuss with Scott Solomon. He's a professor at Rice University and host of the podcast Wild World with Scott Solomon. And he's author of a book called Becoming Martian: How Living in Space Will Change Our Bodies and Minds. Hi Scott, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Well, thanks so much for having me on.

• 5:29Mike Carruthers?

  So I think most people know that there are astronauts living on the space station. There are people living in space and have been for some time. But I think it's maybe more surprising to know that there are companies and people really working on the future of this, of people living in space. So who's working on that?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  You know, they include commercial space companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin, but also governmental space agencies like NASA. I mean, the current Artemis program that is attempting to return us to the moon has the long-term goal of getting to Mars and establishing a presence there. You know, the idea of being on the moon is basically like a way to practice and learn for how we could eventually go and live on Mars. So, once it became clear to me that this was something that was actually in the works, I became really curious and really interested to understand,

• 6:31Speaker 02

  you know, what do we actually know about what would happen if those efforts are successful?

• 6:37Mike Carruthers?

  And what's driving these efforts? Is it just, you know, because it's there? Or because there's some reason to think we'll run out of room here? Or why would one consider living on the moon? It seems a lot nicer here.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Some see it as just a great adventure. But then there's people that see the possibility for profit, right? For, you know, mining asteroids and making money back home. But to me, the most compelling reason that I've encountered, and one that really resonates with me, is the idea that eventually, if we don't leave Earth, we will probably become extinct. I mean, if you just look at the history of our planet and the history of life on Earth, you know, I'm an evolutionary biologist, so I think about life on these long time scales. And we know that there have been major catastrophes that have happened throughout the history of life on Earth. The most recent major disaster being the asteroid impact that killed the dinosaurs and

• 7:38Speaker 02

  about 75% of other species at the time, you know, which was 66 million years ago. Eventually, something like that is going to happen again. We may or may not have the ability to, you know, see it coming and to take action to prevent it. So, the idea there is that if we, if we don't expand into space, if we keep all our eggs in one planetary basket, so to speak, you know, eventually, our time will come.

• 8:06Mike Carruthers?

  Well, but the future is here now in the sense that people do live in space, on the space station, and people go up into rocket ships. And, and so, I mean, it does hap- people are in space, and I've, we've all heard of stories of, of problems people have had, health problems and what, whatnot. I don't know the details of that, but, but it isn't all future. There is some practical application to this.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, people have been living on space stations since the 1970s, and the International Space Station, the ISS, has been continuously occupied since the year 2000. So, for the entire 21st century so far, somebody has been off Earth, right? So, you know, we, we are at that point where we don't all live on Earth. Now, nobody has so far lived their entire lives out in space. Record for the longest continuous time in space is four hundred thirty seven days. So a little over a year. But yeah, we are regularly sending people out into space and we are.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  You know, about to send people deeper into space than anybody has ever gone. The Artemis two. Mission, which is set to launch next month, is going to take a crew of four astronauts. Around the moon and they will actually be traveling farther from Earth than any humans have ever gone. And again, the long term goal is to return to the moon and then to Mars. But yeah, I mean, we are at that point where people are spending longer and longer in space. They're going deeper and deeper into space. And as you said, there are some known issues that that happen, right? Some known things that happen to to our bodies. And I think it's important that we understand what is going to happen to people as we spend more and more time in space.

• 9:59Mike Carruthers?

  And what are the concerns? What do we know enough about to think, well, gee, we better take a closer look at this?

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a whole bunch of things. So, you know, anybody that goes to space can expect a few things to happen. One is that, like, usually people get motion sick. There's there's the an adjustment period, kind of like when you are on a boat for a lot of folks like me. I I tend to get seasick, you know, and I would probably get space sick. People usually get over that in a in a couple of days at the most. But then other things start to happen. So one of the things that happens immediately is that your body fluids start to be redistributed. So normally here on Earth, with the gravity pushing down on us, you have more fluid in your lower body than in your upper body. But that starts to change as soon as you go into a microgravity environment.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  And what the body experiences then is that it feels like there's too much fluid in your head. And so astronauts, if you look at pictures of them, especially soon after they've gotten to space, their faces look kind of puffy. And their legs actually look kind of kind of skinny. So astronauts call this space face and chicken legs. And that's just the fluids being redistributed. But that can actually have some long term negative consequences. So. Having excess fluid in the head actually puts more pressure on the eye. And astronauts that have spent a long amount of time in space, like a year, they have often had vision deterioration. And so that is thought to be linked to those to those fluid shifts.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  So that's something, you know, it's a bit concerning. We don't know what would happen if they're there for even longer because again, the record is just a little over a year. Also, long duration space flight comes with muscle atrophy. So again, not having to work against gravity. We don't think about gravity pushing down on us and us fighting against it when we're on Earth, but but we are. And so our muscles, for example, in our in our legs and in our back, they are helping to hold us up. And when you don't have to do that anymore, those muscles start to weaken. And and so astronauts have to do two hours of exercise every single day that they're in space just to kind of minimize the amount of muscle atrophy that happens, but it still happens.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  And then interestingly, the bones in our body respond to muscle. So when the muscles aren't working as hard, the bones respond by actually giving up some of the materials, the minerals like calcium and phosphorus that give our bones strength. Those minerals start to to be, you know, basically removed from the bone. And so it causes the bones to to weaken and become more brittle. So astronauts lose bone density at a rate of about one and a half percent to 2% per month that they're in space. And so, you know, if you're in space for for multiple years, as would be necessary, for example, if you go to Mars, that could really be a long readjustment to coming back to Earth, and it might be quite dangerous.

• 13:00Mike Carruthers?

  When you watch science fiction like Star Wars or Star Trek, and they're, you know, on the Enterprise, they're in the space station, they're just walking around as if they have been able to create gravity on a spaceship. But when you see videos of the space station, those guys are floating around, they're not walking. Has there been any progress towards creating gravity, say, on a spaceship or even on another planet that doesn't have much gravity? Or is it just science fiction?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Well, that's a great question. So I mean, yeah, a lot of science fiction depictions of being in space do kind of take liberties when it comes to things like gravity. So the idea that you're going to be flying around between planets and, you know, walking around your spacecraft as if you were walking on Earth, that's pretty unrealistic. We have not yet developed technologies that allow us to have artificial gravity. I mean, there's concepts out there. You could have a giant rotating, you know, like a centrifuge, basically, on a spacecraft. That's, that's an idea that has been explored in science fiction, but we're nowhere near actually having that kind of technology in, in real life. So, um, yeah, the ability to, to go between planets, it's going to be hard because you will be exposed

• 14:16Speaker 02

  to, to microgravity, to weightlessness the entire time. It takes like six to nine months to get to Mars. So an astronaut that is, is traveling from Earth to Mars is going to be having those, those issues.

• 14:30Mike Carruthers?

  So in a moment, I want to ask you, how do you make a baby in space? And if you do make a baby in space, what would happen to that baby if it came, having been born in outer space, would come back to Earth? What would happen there?

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 15:43Mike Carruthers?

  I'm speaking with Scott Solomon. He is a professor at Rice University and author of the book, Becoming Martian: How Living in Space Will Change Our Bodies and Minds.

• 15:54Mike Carruthers?

  So if we truly live in space, Scott, then at some point you're going to want to make a baby. And if you make a baby, does space make that particularly difficult? Without gravity, how does the sperm get to the egg? I don't understand any of that. And then, what about that baby?

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so here's the thing. Like, if we're talking about truly living in space, like, you know, moving to another place to live, right? If you're talking about having a city on the moon or Mars, and that's where people live and raise their families, it assumes that human reproduction is possible. And we actually don't know if that's the case. There has been surprisingly little, or at least I was surprised by how little research has been done on reproductive biology in space. There have been some studies using animals. Those include fish, some amphibians, some insects, and also some rodents, like rats. And the thing is, those studies are kind of inconclusive, partly just because

• 16:59Speaker 02

  there haven't been enough of them. But there have been some studies that kind of seem to suggest that reproduction might work okay. So one of the first was a study on some Japanese rice fish called medaka. And those fish went through the whole process of, you know, fertilization, embryo development, hatching of the eggs, and the fish were swimming around, apparently just fine. But of course, you know, fish reproductive biology is pretty different from ours. And so it's unclear how, you know, how generalized that conclusion is. And in fact, some of the studies looking at rats were much more concerning. So the bottom

• 17:40Speaker 02

  line is that we don't really know whether we can have kids in the conditions of space. And then we don't even know what would happen next, right? I mean, even if you can go from fertilization all the way through to a healthy birth, what happens to a child who's born into a lower-gravity environment? There's also a lot more radiation in space.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Only out in a, you know, in a space station, but also even on the surface of the moon or Mars. There's much more radiation exposure there than than what we have on Earth. And so we don't really know what would happen to a child's growing body in that lower gravity, higher radiation environment. Because everything that we know about how space affects the body has been done on healthy adults. I think there's reason to believe that it would be very hard for a child born on, say, Mars to come back to Earth. Because it's quite likely, in my opinion, that they would not form a skeleton that would be strong enough to be able to tolerate coming back to Earth, where gravity is three times stronger than it is on Mars.

• 18:46Mike Carruthers?

  Well, then there's the whole weight issue. Like, if you're conceived and born in space, would you, how much would you weigh in space? And then if you came back to Earth, you would have to multiply that by three.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. So, so, you know, Mars has one-third the gravity of Earth. It's it's a smaller planet, and that's why. So if you or I traveled from Earth to Mars, we would weigh only one-third as much as we do on Earth. So that that might seem nice. But the reverse is going to be tough. Because, you know, coming from Mars to Earth, you're going to weigh three times as much. So for a child born on Mars, and maybe grows up that entire time in that one-third G environment, when they come to Earth, they will weigh three times as much. And that would be a real problem, possibly for anybody, but especially if you also have a weakened skeleton.

• 19:41Mike Carruthers?

  There have been reports of, I remember William Shatner talked about this, of the kind of the psychological effects of being in space. And I don't really understand that. I mean, it's, is it different than you thought it was going to be? And it's so unbelievably different and awesome that it just messes with your head? Or what's the psychological part of this?

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Almost everyone that has gone to space describes kind of being profoundly moved by the experience of looking out and seeing Earth from the outside and seeing how beautiful it is and also, you know, seeing how small Earth is in the vastness of space. And this has been given a name. So, a philosopher named Frank White coined the term "the overview effect" to describe what people have said they have experienced when they've had, you know, the opportunity to be in space. And they kind of basically fall into different categories. So, he's done all these interviews with, you know, going back to the very first astronauts

• 20:49Speaker 02

  and cosmonauts, and that has continued up until recently. So, what they describe sometimes is really about like, you know, noticing that when you look at the Earth, there's no lines, right? It's not like, we're used to seeing maps of the Earth where there's lines separating countries, and obviously, we know that those lines aren't real. But something about the experience of actually looking at the planet with your eyes and seeing that there's nothing separating one nation from the next, apparently just really reinforces the idea that we are all one, right? We, humanity, are all occupying the same planet, and those divisions that we draw are artificial.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  And so, people sometimes come back really kind of with this new sense of the unity of all humanity.

• 21:41Mike Carruthers?

  It would seem one of the drawbacks of living in space on another planet. Like, if you went to live on the moon or on Mars, you would have to be in a space suit pretty much all the time. And that doesn't seem like that would be fun.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Well, we can talk about the moon first. So, you know, we've all seen the videos of the Apollo astronauts moving around on the moon. They do the kind of hop thing, right? Where they're kind of bouncing around. That's because the moon has one-sixth the gravity of Earth. And so that would be true whether you're on the surface in a space suit like we have seen for astronauts, or if you're like inside of an enclosure where, you know, you could potentially, if it's a pressurized enclosure, has an atmosphere you can breathe, you wouldn't need a space suit, but you'd still be in that one-sixth gravity. We don't really have a way of altering that. So, yeah, you would, the way that you move would be

• 22:39Speaker 02

  different. I like to think about sports would be super cool and interesting, right? Like, if you're in that lower-gravity environment. But, but you're right, like, if you go outside, you need a space suit. On the moon, there's, there's basically no atmosphere, and so there's certainly no air to breathe. But not only that, because there's no atmosphere, there's no pressure. And if you, you know, were out of your space suit, basically, like, you know, your body fluids would boil off. I mean, it's, it would be, you know, a quick and terrible death. So, you need a space suit that has both a pressure, internal pressure that allows your body to remain intact, but also provides you a life support system.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  So, giving you oxygen to breathe, removing carbon dioxide, controlling temperature, which is another thing that varies wildly on the surface of the moon. The same basic principles are true on Mars. Mars has the advantage that it has a little bit of an atmosphere. And so, it's still nothing that, that we could breathe. But, you know, there's a little bit higher pressure. You still would need to be in a pressure suit, though.

• 23:51Mike Carruthers?

  What about the whole idea of germs, microbes, things that, you know, on Earth, they are part of our, they're in our guts, they're on our skin. And what happens when you live in space and those microbes aren't around?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, anybody that goes to Mars is going to be taking some microbial life with them. We have a microbiome, right? All these bacteria and other organisms that are in and on our bodies. So it's not like we won't bring any of those with us to Mars. But what we bring is going to be a tiny fraction of what lives here on Earth. So what does that mean? It means that a child born on Mars, as they're growing and developing, their immune system is not going to encounter the vast majority of microbes that kids here on Earth are exposed to when they're young. If that child on Mars then came back to Earth, I think that is very likely that they would be very sick.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  I think that those microbes that are generally not harmful to you and me would be really dangerous to a person that had never been exposed to them. You know, we are creatures of this world, of this planet. We evolved here and we're really well-suited to living here. But moving beyond our home planet comes with a variety of challenges like those that I think we need to really learn more about before we start actually loading up any rockets and sending people out there.

• 25:22Mike Carruthers?

  Well, somehow, the idea of space travel doesn't sound as much fun as it did before. And it's so unknown. It's amazing what we don't know about what living in space could actually do to the human body. I've been speaking with Scott Solomon. He's a professor at Rice University. He hosts a podcast called Wild World with Scott Solomon. And he's author of a book called Becoming Martian: How Living in Space Will Change Our Bodies and Minds. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. And Scott, thank you for explaining all this.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Well, thanks so much, Mike. I loved having a conversation with you about this topic.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 26:31Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 27:00Mike Carruthers?

  This segment is sponsored by Dutch Pet Inc.

• 27:06Mike Carruthers?

  If you're a pet owner, as I have been most of my life, you know how stressful it can be when your pet isn't feeling well. You want to get good veterinary care, but sometimes getting it isn't easy. Appointments can take time to schedule, clinics can be far away, and the cost can add up quickly. In fact, many pets never see a veterinarian regularly because of the cost or access. At the same time, and I didn't know this, but there's actually a shortage of veterinarians in the U.S., which makes getting care even harder for many pet owners. So what are the options if your pet needs help and getting to the vet isn't simple? And what are some of the other trends in pet care you should know?

• 27:50Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that's what we're going to talk about today with Joe Spector. He is founder and CEO of Dutch Pet Inc. Dutch is a telehealth service for pets, meaning your dog or cat can be seen remotely by a licensed veterinarian, much like people now visit doctors through telehealth. Hi, Joe. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

• 28:14Mike Carruthers?

  So I think when people hear about telemedicine for pets for the first time, it sounds a little strange. So I'm wondering, what are the things people do use it for and don't use it for?

• 28:27Speaker 03

  You know, most people are not going to go to telemedicine if their cat's bleeding. So we don't get those types of urgent care, ER type of issues. But we do get a lot of calls on nights and weekends when the vet is closed. And those tend to be things that people may often put off, like an eye infection, ear infection, because also not just the vet's closed, but their next best option is urgent care, which can be quite expensive. And with Dutch, the membership is less than a hundred bucks for a year. And so that cost makes it much more affordable for people to jump on Dutch.com,

• 29:12Speaker 03

  be able to see a vet right away and get their issue assessed.

• 29:18Mike Carruthers?

  I mentioned in the intro, and I was unaware of this before, that a great deal of pets never see a vet or don't see a vet for a very, very long time. And that's, that's got to be a big concern.

• 29:33Speaker 03

  So 50% of Dutch customers haven't been to a vet in several years. So we see a lot more pets getting veterinary care for the first time, which is one of the biggest reasons I started this business. And it's so emotionally and personally satisfying to see. But we, like I said, we see a lot more vets, pets getting care for the first time. In our data, we've now had almost a million telemedicine visits. We just see a huge population that basically doesn't go to the vet and doesn't get vaccines on a regular basis.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  And it's a combination of affordability and friction, because there's no easy vet for them to access to in the first place where they live.

• 30:27Mike Carruthers?

  Well, let's talk about affordability for a second, because my sense is that veterinary care has gotten more expensive faster in the last few years. Is that just my perception or is that reality?

• 30:42Speaker 03

  It's a hundred percent reality. Veterinary costs are double US inflation, which has already been running high, but veterinary costs are running even higher than that.

• 30:57Mike Carruthers?

  Why?

• 30:58Speaker 03

  There's not a simple answer. The main thing I want to make clear, it's not because the vets are trying to stick it to the customers. All vets are doing this because they love pets. But there are some inherent built in infrastructure, basic economics 101, that's leading to price increases. For example, some of the biggest ones, you know, it's simple supply and demand. On the supply side, we've had an influx of pets during the pandemic and those pets are continuing to age. And as you age, veterinary care gets more expensive.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  And the supply of vets actually has decreased. Vets tend to be predominantly female and they can't work traditional hours because they're often responsible for child rearing. And there are not enough veterinary schools. In fact, the main trade association is in an antitrust lawsuit for blocking more schools from launching. And so you don't have enough veterinarians and you have a lot of, a lot more pets. So that's kind of the biggest reason for price increases.

• 32:20Mike Carruthers?

  See, I never knew that. I thought there were plenty of veterinarians and I'm surprised to hear that most of them are women. I mean, I know a lot of them are women, but I always thought it was more of a male dominated profession.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  No, it's definitely changed quite dramatically to how much, especially vets who are under 50. It's vast majority are female. And then in terms of veterinarians, just to give you an example, in human healthcare, the ratio of

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Medical professionals to Americans is something like one to 20. And in pet care, the ratio of veterinarians to pets is about 1 to 2,000. So 1 to 2,000 versus 1 to 20, it's significantly different, significantly worse.

• 33:16Mike Carruthers?

  What are some of the common things veterinarians see that they wish pet owners knew or pet owners took care of, they could help avoid problems, that just everyday stuff?

• 33:28Speaker 03

  I think there's lots of kind of boring things like making sure you're getting flea and tick prevention and getting dental care. Those are some common things of just getting basic daily care to make sure that your pet is set up for success in the long run. Definitely healthy weight. And then what we see is people are going to Dr. Google, or they're going to ChatGPT, or they're going on Reddit, or they're going on Facebook to plead for someone to help them with a medical issue. And that is prone for lots of mistakes.

• 34:10Speaker 03

  And that's where telemedicine comes in because you're able to speak with an actual human veterinarian who actually knows what she's talking about.

• 34:20Mike Carruthers?

  And is the advice changed at all about feeding a pet? Like, you know, some people feed their dog once a day, some people feed it twice a day, some people feed, you know, food from the supermarket, other people get fancy prescription food. What's your sense?

• 34:37Speaker 03

  Nutrition, I have found, is the third rail of politics. You know, it's, it is very charged, polarized, and...

• 34:52Speaker 03

  It has to do with people's ability to what they can afford, to what fits into their lifestyle. But you know, on the one extreme end, you have raw food diets and people want to treat their dogs like they were, you know, back in the day originally. And there's lots of vets who think that's quite a bad idea. And then you have things like kibble versus fresh food. There's a lot of things when it comes to pet care that it's called the gold standard, which is, you know, what is the best thing we can do for our pets?

• 35:34Speaker 03

  But often, the gold standard is not realistic when it comes to public health in terms of what people can actually do, in terms of what's, what they're able to do for their lifestyle. And so I think we have to think of healthcare not as like, what's the best? What's the gold standard? But what's the best that a pet owner can do for their pet, given that pet owner's circumstances?

• 36:01Mike Carruthers?

  So how did Dutch come to be? How did that? I mean, it certainly seems like you're filling a niche that needs filling, but, but what was the light bulb moment for you?

• 36:12Speaker 03

  It came from a personal experience. I was just coming off of being a co-founder of Hims and Hers, a very successful human telemedicine company that I started and helped take public. And I got my own dog. I have a family with three kids. We got the classic pandemic puppy. And as I started to get veterinary care, I was shocked to realize, A, the size of the veterinary bill, and B, looking around, realizing there's not really a Hims type of option when it comes to pet care. There were lots of companies doing advice, but

• 36:56Speaker 03

  there were very few companies that had a full 360 solution that took you from talking to a veterinarian who can actually prescribe medication and have it be delivered to your door. Nobody was doing that. And so I started Dutch.

• 37:15Mike Carruthers?

  And so the first question I think people would have is like, well, how much can you tell looking at a iPad screen about what's wrong with this dog or cat?

• 37:26Speaker 03

  There's a lot. You know, one of the stats we have now, fifth year into our business, is that we're able to address 90% of the issues from what's presented on our platform. And so, of course, no one's going to come to Dutch when their dog is bleeding or unresponsive or has a broken leg. But there's a couple of big areas. One of them is derm. And this is a big area in human telemedicine as well. So when there's a rash, there's a lot of things that you can show and see and take a photo of that,

• 38:10Speaker 03

  just like in human telemedicine, you would do here in pet care.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Another one is behavior issues, behavior and anxiety. It's actually quite common in dogs and telemedicine potentially is an even better way to deal with it because the dog is in the comfort of their home. So they're in their natural environment and behavior is something that needs quite consistent check-ins, which would be pretty unaffordable for most people to do that. And with our annual membership, which includes unlimited visits for your pet, you're able to take care of that anxious pet and have those consistent check-ins

• 39:00Speaker 03

  at a significantly more affordable rate. So you got derm, you have behavior, you have things like flea and tick, which every animal arguably should be on a flea and tick medication. And that's another one that you can easily do through a video chat and a series of photos, videos and questions in addition to the video call.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  And then the other thing is, we also offer actually a number of overnight testing kits. So things like a urine sample, if your dog or cat has a UTI, fecal, ear swab, pretty much anything short of a blood sample, we're able to run a lab test in order to create a diagnosis. So there's a whole host of issues that are fairly common that our vets are able to address through telemedicine.

• 40:01Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, that's great because I know so many people just, you know, can't afford it. It's, it's, it can get very expensive to going to a traditional vet. And as you pointed out, it's, it's getting even more expensive. And that's pricing some pet owners completely out of the picture because they just simply, they just don't have the money.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  That's right, and that is incredibly sad, and it really doesn't have to be that way.

• 40:27Mike Carruthers?

  I can imagine situations, having been a pet owner for so long. I can imagine situations where, I don't know, should I go to the emergency room? Should I call a telehealth doctor? Maybe I should just wait till morning and see if things clear up by themselves. It's, it's a tough call.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Look, oftentimes, first of all, it doesn't have to be an either or question with telemedicine or in person. And the beauty of Dutch is that you're able to often get a same day call, often, you know, within a matter of hours or minutes. And you're welcome to, you know, wait four hours at the ER. But at the same time, there's nothing that should stop you from going to dutch.com and getting on a call. And there are so many things that we see that are so much better for customers if they talk to a real veterinarian.

• 41:31Speaker 03

  For me, a personal example, my corgi was, I thought was having a seizure. And I really freaked out and I recorded him and

• 41:47Speaker 03

  Thought, okay, should I go to urgent care again? In my head, I'm thinking, okay, this is gonna be over a thousand dollars. And I got on a call with Dutch. I showed what's happening. I explained what's happening. And the vet right away knew that what was happening is called a reverse sneeze. Nothing to worry about. And she showed me additional videos on YouTube of dogs reverse sneezing. And it looks like a seizure and could be confused to be a seizure, but it's completely normal. And within seconds, I had this huge sigh of relief.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  And it saved me so much time, so much money, and also a peace of mind that my dog was okay. And there are so many other instances like that when it comes to the common things we see, like an ear infection, eye infection, or some sort of a rash. And it's so much better to go to Dutch and talk to a real professional who knows what she's talking about. And then your dog or cat's not suffering overnight while you wait to go see someone in person. And we often see a situation where a rash became worse because the owner decided to

• 43:11Speaker 03

  wait it out. And I think that's the beauty of telemedicine is you can have access to an affordable that are nearing at your fingertips without having your pet suffer and without having to wait forever to get an in-person appointment.

• 43:25Mike Carruthers?

  See, I would think that eye infection or an ear infection would be very difficult to do on telehealth just because you've got, you know, you've got to kind of hold your dog's head so you, the doctor can see it on the other end. Isn't that tricky?

• 43:40Speaker 03

  You can take lots of photos as well to and show that to the veterinarian, just like you. And again, if you were to bring that dog to a vet, oftentimes they're going to use visual cues to examine the pet. Now, of course, like back to what I mentioned, gold standard of care, could you run more tests? Absolutely. But that's not something that a lot of people can afford, which goes back to why they're not, they're waiting it out because they don't want to be stuck with a $200 bill at the end of it all. And

• 44:18Speaker 03

  so if someone's choosing, okay, do I wait it out and do nothing? Or do I see if a professional can help? And again, there's lots of ways with a video call plus photos and videos that you'll be able to at least get to an initial assessment. And the cool part is, again, the way that it works is 90% of our customers are using their phone. And so the phone is quite mobile. And so if your dog or cat is moving around, it's quite easy to take a quick video or take a couple of photos and show that to the veterinarian.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  And that should be enough to, like I said, to at least get an initial assessment.

• 45:05Mike Carruthers?

  Are you the only, is Dutch the only pet telehealth company out there?

• 45:11Speaker 03

  Well, now in our fifth year, we certainly have lots of people who are emulating what we're trying to do, but we are by far the biggest with coverage in the most states.

• 45:23Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it certainly seems like an idea whose time has come. I mean, telehealth seemed kind of bizarre when it first started for people, and now it's pretty common. And it seems like that's likely where we're headed for with pets.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  The reason I'm doing this is Pets First. You know, I'm a pet owner and I want people to be able to have access to affordable pet care. And I know we're doing the right thing. We've had, like I said, almost a million telemedicine visits and customers who are often in tears because their pet is getting care for the first time. And so I know we're doing the right thing.

• 46:06Mike Carruthers?

  Well, and as somebody who's paid some pretty hefty vet bills and have waited a long time in the waiting room for sometimes pretty simple things, I think it's a great service you're offering. I've been speaking with Joe Spector. He is founder and CEO of Dutch. And if you'd like more information, you can go to the website dutch.com. And if you become a member, be sure to use our promo code to get a substantial discount on your membership. The promo code is S Y S K, as in Something You Should Know. Hey, Joe, thank you. Thanks for coming on.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 46:44Mike Carruthers?

  You ever find yourself struggling to squeeze that very last little bit out of the toothpaste tube or the shampoo bottle? You might feel frugal doing it, but the math suggests it really doesn't matter much. Take toothpaste, for example. You could work really hard at squeezing that one final dab out of the toothpaste tube, and it might save you a nickel. Behavioral economists say this is a classic example of micro-frugality. We focus on tiny savings that feel satisfying, like scraping the jar or watering down shampoo, while ignoring decisions that actually save real money, like switching insurance companies,

• 47:29Mike Carruthers?

  reducing subscriptions, or avoiding impulse purchases. In other words, squeezing the tube may feel thrifty, but the real financial wins come from the bigger decisions. And that is something you should know. Hey, if you have a second, could you do me a favor and leave us a quick review on wherever you're listening, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, wherever you listen, they allow you to leave a review. At least give us a rating. It really does help us, and I would be appreciative. Thank you very much. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 48:05Speaker 00

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