U.S. Senate Candidate Admiral Mike Franken on Serving the Common Good | How to Travel Through Time

Ryan reads today’s meditation and talks to Admiral Mike Franken about his campaign for U. S. Senate in Iowa, what he learned about the art of leadership throughout his service in the U. S. military, the modern political climate and what we can do collectively to improve it, and more. Admiral Mike Franken is a former United States Navy vice admiral. Franken entered the United States Navy in 1981 and was the first commanding officer of USS Winston S. Churchill. Franken was the first director of the Defense POW/MIA Agency, which oversees the location and retrieval of the remains of American veterans of foreign wars. Admiral Franken is now seeking the Democratic Party nomination for US Senate in Iowa. Blinkist takes top nonfiction titles, pulls out the key takeaways and puts them into text and audio explainers called Blinks that give you the most important information in just 15 minutes. Go to Blinkist.com/STOIC to start your free 7 day trial and get 25% off of a Blinkist Premium membership. New Relic combines 16 different monitoring products that you’d normally buy separately, so engineering teams can see across their entire software stack in one place. Get access to the whole New Relic platform and 100GB of data free, forever – no credit card required! Sign up at NewRelic.com/stoic. As a member of Daily Stoic Life, you get all our current and future courses, 100+ additional Daily Stoic email meditations, 4 live Q&As with bestselling author Ryan Holiday (and guests), and 10% off your next purchase from the Daily Stoic Store. Sign up at https://dailystoic.com/life/ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more. Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Admiral Mike Franken: Homepage, Instagram, TwitterSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

• 0:43Ryan Holiday?

  How to travel through time. Obviously, time travel in the strictest sense is not possible. We can't go back to second-century Rome and visit Marcus Aurelius. We can't have dinner with Socrates in ancient Greece. But there is a way, a pretty magical way, as the writer Adam Rubin explained to me on the Daily Stoic Podcast a while back, that we can travel to the future, or at least speak to the future, by doing the work we do right now. Think about Marcus Aurelius, who ascended to the throne at age 40. He was not alone when this happened, you see, because 23 years earlier, he had begun training for this moment. In

• 1:26Ryan Holiday?

  a sense, his past self was there with him in the form of the wisdom he had passed along to his future self all those years before. Think of all the blows that befell Seneca. He was at least luckier than some. His past self, via pre-meditatio molorum, had prepared his future self for exactly such an occurrence. Each day, we have this ability to send a message to the future, the decision to get up early, to eat well, to spend a few quiet but meaningful moments with someone we love. These are all things that whatever the future holds, we will look back on and be grateful to our past selves for, if we could just muster the discipline to send that message

• 2:09Ryan Holiday?

  forward through our actions now. If we can, we'll wonder many years from now, how did they know I was going to need this? We'll think, how perfect. We won't be able to thank them, of course, but we can pay it forward. We can get to work sending the next message, making the next contribution to our future selves.

• 2:34Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Just got back from Miami yesterday. Was there very briefly to give a talk. Man, totally different, totally different universe, but it was nice to get in the sun and go for a run on the beach. Probably as different a place in the United States as you can get from Miami is Iowa. I've only been to Iowa once. I gave a talk in Des Moines a few years ago at a library, which was a fun little experience. Also a beautiful place to go for a run. If

• 3:19Ryan Holiday?

  I remember correctly, I went and run along a river or some lake. I don't know. It was very cold, but I had a nice run there. This is on my book tour for Stillness, if I'm remembering correctly. Anyways, my guest on the podcast today is a lifelong native of Iowa, although he has seen most of the world since then. He was a vice admiral in the United States Navy. Admiral Mike Franken is a graduate of MIT, University of Virginia, the Naval Postgraduate College of Physics, as well as Babson College. So he's a very educated guy. He entered the Navy in 1981, was the first commanding officer of the USS

• 4:01Ryan Holiday?

  Winston Churchill, and he worked for everyone from Donald Rundfels to Senator Ted Kennedy. He was the director of the Defense POW MIA Agency, which oversees the location and retrieval of the remains of American veterans from foreign wars. And he's now seeking the Democratic Party nomination.

• 4:21Ryan Holiday?

  For the US Senate in Iowa, you can go to his website at frankenforIowa.org. It was a delightful conversation. I really enjoyed it. And we talk about some good old fashioned values, talk about Winston Churchill, and we talk about exploring the world, among other things. I think you're really going to like this interview. Enjoy my conversation with Admiral Mike Franken. And if you live in Iowa, don't forget to vote for Admiral Franken and enjoy this conversation.

• 5:00Ryan Holiday?

  So I was, I was trying to think about where to start and I always love asking Navy people about Admiral Stockdale, given his background in Stoicism. And then I noticed you, your work with POWs. So I thought that might be an interesting place for us to, for us to start.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Well, yes, I had, I started a defense agency and then had to name it and get the necessary congressional authorization and the, the business rules laid out. We did this in a bipartisan manner and Chuck Hagel was, you know, called me hither and said, okay, we need to do this. I was a two-star, yeah, I was a two-star Admiral at the time. And, and it was a rather dainty kind of a, a watch where you step process because as it existed, it was a consolidation of numerous other entities stretching from, well, Europe

• 5:55Speaker 01

  to Southwest, Southeast Asia. So, and then, and develop new labs and new infrastructure and put the necessary manning document or staffing document together. We did that and it turned out to be quite successful. But I guess the, the issue that, that was most concerning was at the time, a lot of bodies were unidentified, bones were unidentified, that were held in a repository in Pearl Harbor, at a place called the Punchbowl. And I worked to get the authorization to have those re.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Re-looked at and re-categorized. And ultimately, that became that USS Oklahoma, USS Utah, which you see quite frequently, those individuals' closure coming to those families. So, yeah, I mean, my father was in World War II, wounded vet. My grandfather, World War I. I had a brother in the military. At one time, I had three brother-in-laws in all the different services: doctor, aviator, ground pounder, et cetera, in the Vietnam era. So, we're not a militaristic family, but it was a manner in which, A, you gave back, and it also provided school. For me, it was graduate schools. And, I mean, who would have thought that I would have worked for Ted Kennedy?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  I'm an engineer, I'm a farm kid from northwest Iowa, from the boonies, and, you know, a farmer in King Arthur's Court type of a situation. But I've always had a soft spot for those who sacrificed a lot for others. And so, you know, I thought I'd do the same thing and also get my college paid for. That's kind of how I ended up in this line of work.

• 7:46Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I have to imagine that, it's interesting you brought that up, because, yeah, you'd think something as sort of nonpartisan and straightforward as POWs identifying the remains from America's wars, you wouldn't think, oh, that's probably going to run into a lot of bureaucracy and difficulty. But I imagine that was really the graduate school and just how hard it is to get even simple things done in a place like Washington or, you know, even in the Navy itself.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Well, what I learned on a lot of international operations is it's not so much your adversary who's the problem, but it's those who are affiliated with you.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  That become the hurting aspects, as in H E R D, the hurting aspects. And the people who have other ulterior motives to the prime objective, et cetera, really cause the issue. So in that situation, more complex than is due for this discussion, but depending on if your lost loved one was from World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Army, Air Force, Navy, aviator, non-aviator, ground bomber. So you see all these advocacy groups that cycle down and saying, you're not doing enough to find those people, or because of the acidity of the soil, you should work harder here.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  They get all the attention because you're a Navy guy. I mean, there's this infighting, which...

• 9:24Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  And then, of course, you have people associated with this who claim to be 501 Cs who really aren't. And I mean, that's not just this industry, but it's this thing. This is in all aspects. So there's this cleansing process that has to happen as well. So it was quite the kerfuffle, and ultimately turned out to be a manageable...

• 9:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. How do you do that? It seems like fighting against the enemy is at least straightforward and clear. As you work with the competing agendas of different well-meaning, but perhaps self-interested groups, or they have a very specific legislative or charitable purpose, how do you get everyone on board with something that requires basically everyone to compromise and thus everyone to be unhappy in some way?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  You don't necessarily. So you make sure that this is the prime objective. And if it's within the five items that are most important to you, then re-wicker your five to make this your number one. And then we will cycle through the next four. And then let that be the discussion topic. So you try to minimize the breadth of the dissenting opinions. And try to use a plethora of logic. And usually, logic is winnable.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  And especially when it's well understood. The problem can also be in today's media and the ability to manipulate what people say. You'd be surprised at how nefarious well-meaning individuals who have an altruistic sense can be so that they win a little bit more than the next person.

• 11:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  There's a lot behind that statement.

• 11:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, I imagine, and I imagine as a member of the armed forces, you're a little bit more used to a clarity of purpose than when you have to venture out into the political or the real world. And that could probably be both frustrating and a little demoralizing. Not that the Navy doesn't have its bureaucracy.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Well, so I had an interesting background having, I sat across underneath a banyan tree with warlords, clan leaders. When I'm hopelessly outgunned. And I think of a place in Lear, South Sudan, one time, when I'm being guarded by Mongolian UN soldiers under German command. And the German guy is in a dress uniform for some reason, wearing a pistol above him. It's like, you're way out of character here. Because everybody else in combat uniforms. Speaking to the SPLA.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  And then the SPLA in opponent in opposition, they're called IOs. And speaking to one underneath this awning and who I'm quite sure that just as soon shoot me then talk to me.

• 12:59Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  And then speaking to their opponent a few hours later under a tree. And then knowing that half of what's being said is probably not exactly accurate or even truthful. So I'm kind of used to balancing that. And I had a whole bunch of examples of that. I mean, you name it in my international experience. But so I'm not a nugget, I'm not a rookie from that perspective. And I think age and experience and a lack of, or critical thinking comes into play and becomes valuable insight tools.

• 13:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I was writing about Eisenhower. I'm doing this book on self-discipline right now. And I was writing about Eisenhower. He has this amazing quote about how freedom is the opportunity for self-discipline. And I was thinking about, you know, so he sort of has this slow career. You know, he basically skips the First World War, never really commanded troops in battle, finally does get himself, you know, the named commander of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces. He suddenly has immense power and yet actually has almost no power whatsoever in that he's the head of this enormous coalition with conflicting, you know, goals and ideals and

• 14:27Ryan Holiday?

  people, and he really can't make anyone do anything. And it struck me as kind of a paradox of leadership is that we think the president or insert, you know, head of this company or that organization has all this power. And really, they have almost no power whatsoever. They can't. And Eisenhower said something like this. He said, you know, leadership is the art of making people do things because they want to do them. And how much that encapsulates the paradox of that position that he held.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Well, oftentimes you have to convince them that they want to do it as well.

• 15:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  So one time I was responsible for Somalia. And as a, as a one of many countries under my charge. And this was in concert, obviously, with the State Department. The state, the ambassador was in Nairobi at the time. And we were trying to bring the transitional federal government into, into. But, but we were the eastern, the eastern side of the, of, uh, of the shore base from Guile down to Mogadishu, there were a lot of pirates. You know, the, and nobody likes a pirate, right?

• 15:32Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  So, so, but my, my ability to, uh, to control the piracy in Somalia is limited by just a couple of tools. And, you know, you, you've got to be very careful as to who you harm in life. Because oftentimes, there are just people looking for a different line of work or a salvation of an income. And so, uh, you would think that the American, uh, the American armed forces would be valuable, uh, commodities to help you. But they don't have the, the necessary writ to do so. But, so you find who can help you. And sometimes it's a, it's an interesting concoction of bedfellows. Uh, but, you know, you find what works.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And ultimately, uh, we were reasonably successful with piracy and, and bringing it from an all time high to zero in 18 months' time. But, but it, it, uh, you use a, a variety of tools at your disposal when you don't necessarily command any of them.

• 16:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. It, it, it must be weird, you know, being sent out, uh, you know, with the most modern of technology to battle pirates. When you're, you're essentially being sent, the, the American Navy is being sent on the same mission that the Roman Navy was being sent on, that the same mission that Thomas Jefferson was sending the American Navy to deal with. Is that, is, is that a weird feeling to just think that sometimes what you did is what people have literally been doing since humans have ever existed?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  I'd go back, I'd go back to Vasco da Gama, actually, that area. So while I wasn't in charge of the waters, just the beach on end was my was my area of responsibility. So my control as a Navy person, oddly, I was in I was in charge of the land forces.

• 17:25Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  So and and a and a big force at that. But it was to, you know, my the best tool I had was the person who owned the cell phone network and the and the advertising agency, who we could put up ads about women's education and and personal health and encouraging messages to be good to each other. And they would stay up for as long as the nefarious Aspen, I don't and I don't want to just say it's it's one group because it's a variety of groups, would let them stay up.

• 18:04Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  And then and then you you could cajole others to compel the pirates to get out of town so that they didn't have access to electricity and cell phones and cotton and that sort of thing. And and they dissipate, they go do something else. But, you know, you didn't want to drop bombs on everybody. That's ridiculous because most of these people are just youngsters looking for a line of work.

• 18:26Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  So it was it was interesting, interesting, but yet satisfying that we were successful in that and didn't have to harm people.

• 18:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and and probably that's what's been driving people to to to piracy for thousands of years.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Yeah.

• 18:44Ryan Holiday?

  When I when I interviewed Major General Dan Kane, he was talking about sort of becoming a student of leadership, how how he sort of learned to be a leader. How have you thought about that in in your career? There's certain people that you studied under that were mentors to you or certain historical figures that you really looked up to. But how have you, you've been a leader for four decades, how have you thought about that as a as a discipline of study?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  You know, I wasn't, I wasn't good at reading self-help books. I read, I read books on, you know, not novels, but you know, substantive history books, et cetera. And, but I, I think my father was pretty instrumental. When I was nineteen years old, I was working in a slaughterhouse. And, and for, you know, pay as you go in college, youngest of nine kids in, in the corner of Northwest Iowa. And the, the slaughterhouse asked me over the holidays if I wanted to head a, a worker team

• 19:57Speaker 01

  to rehab the rendering plant in this place. And it was a pretty big construction project. And I said, sure, you know, this is time and a half, absolutely. And my dad said, don't do anything, don't tell anybody to do anything, because I'm going to be the youngest person there and a foreman. You do it first and then ask them to do it and ultimately they probably will. So all the nasty jobs, you know, I put, I'd assign work lists and then I'd do the nasty job. And, and ultimately I had to fire a couple of people, but, but you just learn early on that you've got to be the stand-up person.

• 20:37Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  And, and, and take it upon yourself to be the first one there and the last to leave and work a little harder than everybody else and don't ask anything that you wouldn't do yourself of anybody and ensure that they were properly outfitted, they were safe. And, and, and they were, there was a bit of humor and optimism and a gung-ho-ness. And I guess, I guess it just kind of comes naturally over time. It's a little harder if you're an introvert, but I think as a, as a quasi-introvert, you develop more worthwhile skills in getting people to be happy about doing things for you.

• 21:21Ryan Holiday?

  Was it, what, what did your dad do?

• 21:24Speaker 01

  He was a machinist, a welder. He built a machine shop where there were no towns within 10 miles in northwest Iowa coming out of World War II to fix farming implements. And so his entire life, he worked with his hands. And when I, when I worked for the slaughterhouse, I made more money as a 19-year-old than he ever did in his life.

• 21:47Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  And, you know, he raised nine kids. So, so he was a, he was a smart guy, an inventive guy who didn't believe in investments and didn't believe in making money unless you worked for it. Interesting, very interesting perspective. He didn't like people that bought land and sold it for a higher price. He thought that was, you know, some kind of improper thing in America. And, and we, we always, my brother and I reflect on that to this day, that he just didn't buy stock and, and the like. And that was just the way he was. So, so he was a bear of a man, kind as can be, tough as nails, and then died too young.

• 22:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that's, that, that must have been an interesting, sort of a humbling, sort of blue collar perspective to grow up with, but then also one that you had to figure out the limitations of and to expand as you went into the world and, and became a sort of a leader.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Well, and a story on that, Ryan, is, so, one of the things I did as a kid to make money was to harvest, using a nice term, gophers. Because gophers would make holes and cattle would step in them and, and hurt themselves and, and the like. So farmers would, the extension agent would pay us a quarter or something for every gopher that we, that we would bring to him in a, in a can.

• 23:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  So, I was a little boy and I would lay in the sunshine with my dog, the little 22, and shoot these gophers and did that for hours on end. And then I was, the vivid memory of walking across the cold, the cold granite floor and with my, with my bell jar with salted feet in it, because that's what you handed in. And you turned it into the bank teller and she gave you cash for it. And I was a little boy and I, and, and my, my sister Martha looked down at me and she said, "Michael, you don't even have shoes on."

• 23:48Speaker 01

  And I didn't, you know, I was dirty, bloody, uh, you know, beat up legs like a country kid.

• 23:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you sound like Huckleberry Finn.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, with a bit, you know, and very much so.

• 23:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  And I thought to myself, you know, you don't have to be a hick.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Uh, you, you can cure yourself of that. So good, good language skills, good manners, stay clean, stay semi groomed, et cetera, et cetera. You learn that and that, that you can, and it's not fooling people as much as it is, um, trying to be something a little bit better than, than, you know, the situation you were born in.

• 24:27Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, I think sometimes people, and I, I think we see this now with, you know, people are upset about political correctness or this or that. Sometimes, uh, there's a, the, the world is a game and you have to figure out how to play the game, even if you don't like all the rules, even if it's more comfortable to walk around without shoes or, or, or even if you were raised a certain way, like society, civilization is a set of made up rules and we have to figure out how to play those rules, just as I'm sure the Navy, to get ahead in the Navy, it required understanding how the, you know, one got ahead, what, what one needed to do, even if that was very different than, you know, with the actual skills required to command a ship or shoot a gun or something, you, you've got to figure out the soft skills

• 25:12Ryan Holiday?

  and the hard skills and combine them together.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Indeed, indeed.

• 25:17Ryan Holiday?

  I've always been, I think just because my career has been very different, you know, as a writer, you said, you effectively work for yourself, you could do it at any age, you, you could walk around barefoot if you want. Um, I've always been impressed slash also in awe of like, uh, uh, coaches in, in professional sports or, or people like yourself, like where you get to the top of it, but there's no, there's no such thing as a meteoric rise. Like you, I'm sure it was decades before you started to reach those, those top ranks in, in say the Navy or, you know, somebody might be an assistant coach in the NFL for 30 years before they get their first shot at, at leading a team. How does, how, how

• 26:01Ryan Holiday?

  does one manage the patience of that? I feel like I'm so impatient that I could never do something like that.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  You know, I think it is, I think it is respecting those that you've been charged in leading has a lot to do with it. I remember coming straight out of college, going straight to my first ship and being handed a division of forty-three people. And walking out there and I, and honestly, I haven't the foggiest what's going on. I'm the least informed person and I'm in charge of them. It's totally, totally improper. And so, you know, you need to be humble, you need to be more, I think, more inclusive to ask them how best I can, I can do my job.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  And you've got to kind of get them to like you as a person. And oftentimes, that element of liking you will help you, help cover your up, up your shortcomings. And I think a lot of the shortcomings of my, my life have been covered up by others because they wanted me to succeed.

• 27:17Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  And, and, and then oftentimes, you know, there's an element of luck in all of this. I just had this discussion with somebody yesterday who didn't make admiral and he probably should have. And, and I, and I, you know, tried to encourage him, hey, listen, it just happens sometimes and there's nothing you can do about it. Don't live in the past, be happy with the future, be, you know, health, happiness, et cetera, is the important stage of this life. And you were a leader, you just, you just didn't rise to that next level and it's not for everybody, that's for sure.

• 27:53Ryan Holiday?

  So was he, he or she having to come to terms with the fact that they would never get that thing? Or was it more of a, they have to wait for the next go around?

• 28:00Speaker 01

  No, so they were done in the military, you know, they time out. And so, always expecting, I'm gonna make it, I'm gonna make it, I'm gonna make it. And then, you know, you got two shots and, and the first one is like, swing and a miss. Second one was, oh, I thought that was my sweet spot, didn't make it, now what? So, you know, you're, you think, well, does my spouse look at me differently? Do my kids look at me differently? Do people look differently at cocktail parties, dinner parties? Am I viewed lesser because I was on that ascendancy? I've done all the things necessary, et cetera? But it's a crowded field. And it's it's rather fickle who gets selected in many cases.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  And there is such a thing as, you know, people say you make your own luck to a degree.

• 28:50Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  But a lot of it is timing. And and for for his selection, they didn't need his skill groups that year. And therefore, he didn't get picked. And and that's just a just just happenstance.

• 29:07Ryan Holiday?

  And I imagine the the difficulty of that is also thinking of all of the sacrifices, all of the time away from home, all of the the things that one endured, telling oneself it would be worth it when you get the brass ring. And then you don't you don't get it. That would be devastating and frustrating. One could have so many different reactions to that thing and just going, eh, it wasn't my it wasn't my uh my chance. That that would be hard to swallow, I imagine.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Well, so every senator on earth wonders what it would have been like to be vice president. Every vice president thinks what it would have been like to be president. Every president thinks what would have been better for he or hopefully a she to have done differently. Everybody has that next wrong. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But if you retire a senior enlisted person, why didn't I become the most senior enlisted person in the Air Force? Why didn't I become the captain of that best ship? Why didn't I become a, you know, so I retired as a three star. Why didn't I become a four star? Do I I I submitted my resignation.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Um, but you know, I probably would not have been selected anyway. Who knows? But uh, don't dwell on it. Everybody taps out in that particular area, but inwardly.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Inwardly is what really counts. Where's the sky? And if you grow personally, you grow emotionally and intellectually, and you grow within humankind and altruistically, that's, that has that unlimited potential and only limited by your physicality ultimately. And that's what something one ought to perceive as being of equal import as to one's professionalism.

• 31:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and I think ultimately, if you were confident that you did your best along the way, that you, you were of service along the way, that is a better motivator and also allows you to sleep at night regardless of the outcome than if you are, if your work and sacrifice or whatever is conditional on a certain accomplishment or a certain reward or a certain rank. I think about this as an author. You know, you spend all this time writing these books. But yeah, there's a ton of luck involved, right? You could, your book could come out the day your publisher goes out of business. I, I tell the story about one of my favorite novelists, this guy, John Fonte. He puts out this novel in 1933.

• 31:46Ryan Holiday?

  I think one of the great American novels. But as it happens, his publisher is sued by Hitler the month it comes out for illegally pirating Mein Kampf. Right? They published an American, an English edition of Mein Kampf. Hitler has his publisher sue them. And in effect, this is a little known story. In, in a US federal court, Hitler's copyright and his, and HMH, still a publisher in the United States, their copyright over Mein Kampf is upheld. This guy's publisher is bankrupted and the, the novel is lost for 70 years. So, you know, you could do everything right and then, you know, just get that freak instance of bad luck and, and you don't, you don't.

• 32:31Ryan Holiday?

  Now, all of a sudden, you're having to ask yourself if, if it was worth it.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, so Winston Churchill, a name we all recognize.

• 32:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Goes by Winston S. Churchill. And the reason he added an S in his name is because coincident with his life was another author. I think that person was an American. Who was Winston Churchill?

• 32:54Ryan Holiday?

  I did not know this.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Who was remarkably more or significantly more famous initially than he was. So Winston wrote him a letter one time saying, hey, can we come to an accommodation, etcetera? And the guy sloughed him off, go away, little boy.

• 33:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  So that's how Winston begot his ass. He said, okay, well, I'll have to differentiate myself. And so, you know, maybe if this guy would have reached an accommodation and gotten to know Winston, they could have done, you know, like Winston and Winston and made, he would have been more famous as well. So ultimately, uh, reaching an accommodation is ever so important and understanding that it's not all about you.

• 33:35Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you were the captain of the USS Churchill, weren't you?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  I was, yeah, my first man.

• 33:42Ryan Holiday?

  There's not a lot of US ships named after, uh, after, uh, foreign citizens, are there?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Well, technically Winston Churchill was afforded his US citizenship. But yes, I think there were six, uh, such, such ships that were named after foreign born individuals, you know, Bon Amour, etcetera, a few others. And, uh, but, uh, and I, I actually argued some years later that we ought to do more of that. Because although there's some great Americans and, and, but some extremely unknown individuals who are only really recognized in a small covey of individuals, that doesn't make it wrong. But ultimately, we could develop a broader following of US Navy entities. If we looked at who that Czechoslovakian was, for instance, in, uh, Dachau,

• 34:32Speaker 01

  who saved a bunch of people's lives or that partisan in, uh, Rwanda who saved a bunch of Tutsi lives or Hutus lives, etcetera. I mean, there's others on earth who show the principles that we value very much, that maybe we ought to expand the naming convention of our assets in America. Because America is nothing but a melting pot, right?

• 34:56Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  We're all in this together and, and, and we are viewed as that beacon of melding together of populations. We should expand, I think, who we recognize to be.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Maybe external today, but ultimately here tomorrow.

• 35:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, to me, that's what I think sometimes we get wrong in some of our political debates about immigration. Of course, one has to have strong borders and security matters and the rules of law matters. But I mean, America is a country to me more, America to me is more a country that is an idea than it is a country that is a set of very specific borders. And of course, borders matter, but you know, if you're a country of ideas, it seems like we should be going around annexing figuratively people we want to make Americans or that we want to celebrate as being in line with this American ideal. And so I very much like the imagery of what you're talking about.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Well, our annexation, if you will, of others should only be throttled by the gap that we are creating from whence they come. We've got to make sure that demanding the best and the brightest and the people with the most verve and energy don't devoid the countries and the villages that they come from. So what's really, what's really important, I think, is that we provide them the essence of America, that concept that you mentioned, that idea that some stay sure, but they also have the consideration of their homeland

• 36:42Speaker 01

  that they go back and help. And, and then ultimately, you know, as I told people in many countries, I think that's great that your, your daughter, your son is educating themselves in America. What are you thinking that they'll do when they come back?

• 36:57Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And they say, oh, well, we hope that they stay. I said, well, that's fine. So do I. But I would also ask that they, whatever skill craft they garner, that they maintain this, this foot back in home country where there's some bleed back.

• 37:16Ryan Holiday?

  No, I think about that, too. Like, to me, the great market, we were talking about sports coaches earlier, the great coaches don't just have a certain number of NBA championships, or a certain number of Super Bowls, or All-Stars, or whatever it is. The best coaches also have the most impressive coaching trees, right? So, Bill Belichick or Nick Saban have the best coaching trees in college and professional football, because their assistants and proteges, and strength and conditioning coaches, and front office people now run all the other organizations. And I think, to me, America succeeding as an empire, I read a great book a few years ago

• 37:57Ryan Holiday?

  called How to Hide an Empire. And he was basically saying, you know, up until World War II, almost all the empires were based on territory. You know, Britain goes around and sets up all these colonies, the Romans go around and set up all these colonies. But the American empire coming out of the Second World War is an empire not of boots on the ground necessarily, but the standards which we set. Why, you know, first off, that everyone speaks English, but also that, you know, screws were set up the American way, or that, you know, they drive on this side of the road. Like, what America exported, the empire that America is, is primarily a soft power empire. And I think even inside organizations and people,

• 38:40Ryan Holiday?

  this sort of soft power coaching tree, who are you influencing, who do you have in alignment with your principles and ideals, is just as important as, you know, what do you literally control?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's great. I was, had a very interesting conversation one time in Karl Skrona Sweden, of all places. An elderly woman said to me, you know what, one of the greatest things America did for Sweden was, when so many of the Swedes during the bad times, economic times, immigrated to the United States, some came back, and they impressed upon us that drinking during the winter months, and the prevalence of alcohol in our lives, is not necessarily a good thing.

• 39:25Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And it runs in contravention to our religious principles in many respects, that maybe we ought to relook at ourselves. So, she said, curiously, and I remember this, that it's one of those things that America gave back to us, where On, on winter nights, instead of drinking so much, why don't we continue working? Why don't we continue thinking about different concepts, et cetera? And I said, really? That's what America? She goes, oh, yes. My family remembers that. That when Americans came back, when, when Swedes came back to Sweden, they just viewed things a little bit differently. And I thought, well, I'll be doggone. Who's to argue with that?

• 40:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, the, the American work ethic and our entrepreneurial spirit and ideas of self-discipline and self-control, these are wonderful cultural exports.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, indeed.

• 40:15Ryan Holiday?

  So I, I was curious for you, uh, there, you, you have this long career in the Navy. You could be very much enjoying your retirement or, you know, sitting on corporate boards. There's any number of things you could do. You could be a consultant, uh, you could give public talks. The Stoics talk a lot about, this is actually interesting comparison, I think. The Stoics and the Epicureans. Seneca's saying that the distinction between the Stoics and the Epicureans is the Epicureans get involved in politics, uh, only if they have to. And he says the Stoics will get involved in politics in life, um, unless something prevents them.

• 40:59Ryan Holiday?

  So what, what, what motivates you to decide to, to enter, to enter politics when you could do literally anything else? And I'm sure be sitting in a slightly more luxurious, uh, uh, you know, uh, place than you are right now?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Well, this isn't a folding chair, just so you know. It's, it's a stackable chair.

• 41:20Ryan Holiday?

  Rentable, I'm sure. Rented, I'm sure.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  No, stolen out of another office. So I guess I'm more of an Epicurean. You know, it, I never, I was never really political. And matter of fact, I'm of the mindset that when working in the executive branch of the federal government, uh, and I never intended to make military service my life. I, I joined the military in essence to take a, um, a, a, a vacation from ultimately going to medical school. I was going to become a doctor, a, a country doctor. And then one thing led to another and suddenly, you know, falling pell mell, things happened. But. Uh, working early on for, I was doing a federal executive fellowship at the Brookings

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Institute and I got told to go work on the Hill. And I walked into the office of the guy who swings the biggest hammer, this was in the Clinton administration, I had to go with the Democrat, and it was Ted Kennedy. And he brought me in and gave me, loaded me up with responsibilities and never questioned my, my ethics, my, my ethos or anything like that. And, and we got along swimmingly. Lots of management, thousands of staff members, multiple commands over time, three tours in essence in legislative affairs, a heart that really is, you know, ancestors that were settlers in Northwest Iowa, giants of the earth type settlers.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's, it boils down to something exceedingly corny, and I'm almost embarrassed to see, but it kind of stops the conversation. If not me, who? Sure. Uh, and, you know, healthy enough, I don't, you know, my, my wife and I live a common life. We don't need the corporate income. I've got a retirement income. We're healthy kind of enough and, and settled and balanced on matters that it, this is a continuation of service.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And, and I will say that having done it once and then turned around because of, of other political considerations, this time, you know, there's an aspect of, is the country well? Is the country settled? Are we a little bit unhinged or more than a little bit? What, what is it about a retired military officer, bootstraps, Iowa values, adoptive father, you know, all those things? Is there some benefit to this where you're kind of a commoner and you can perhaps bridge

• 44:13Speaker 01

  across the aisle in, in, in what has been heretofore Republican territory and say, hey, you know, I might be a good option for you? Science-based physics, engineering, build infrastructure, reach across the aisle, get along with regardless of gender, regardless of color, etc. If not me, who? And it's almost, it would almost be irresponsible if I didn't at least avail myself to do this. And once availed, people said, you know, get back in the ring there, big guy. And here I am.

• 44:56Ryan Holiday?

  It does, it does feel like the country is not, is not well. And I don't just mean because of this pandemic that is, you know, sickened and killed so many people, but it does, it does feel like things are coming apart a little bit. And it feels like people are kicking out pretty important legs of the stool without much of a regard for the long-term stability, connections with each other. It feels like we're, we're entering dangerous territory.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think everybody can add anecdotally their experiences day to day, where perhaps people were a bit more rough than they needed to be.

• 45:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Perhaps somebody gave you the bird when they didn't really, you know, what was that about?

• 45:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  A, and something that just frankly, just wasn't nice.

• 45:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  And when you have a choice in life to be happy, when you have a choice to be helpful, you have a choice to be friendly, help, pick up a piece of trash when no one's, when no one's looking. I sense there's a coarseness, a roughness that is as a result of a darkness undercurrent in America. And we can talk about why that is. Does it stretch back to 9/11? Does it, does it go back farther than that? Is it, is it demographics? Is it political? Is it income-based? Or is it all of those things?

• 46:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, to me, I think one of the things I feel like a lot of the frustrations that people, a lot of the, it's like because it doesn't feel like anything is working, right? It doesn't feel like the legislative branch is passing legislation that people need. It doesn't feel like, you know, it feels like all these different parts of the system aren't working. And so I just wonder if people, that there's this kind of pent up frustration that we're ending up taking out on each other, on our neighbors, when really, if we could all just, you know, as they say in sports, if each individual person, each individual component of the thing would do their job, things might get back on track and it might

• 47:18Ryan Holiday?

  lessen some of the pent upness of where we are.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. We, we drive too fast. We're too reckless. We don't say thank you enough. We don't converse with each other the way we, I think we, we did just a mere few years ago. Everything, I mean, in some respects, what is right is now wrong and what is vehemently evil is considered appropriate.

• 47:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  And, and it's like, what happened to us? And this is not, this is not in the, the one sigma of a population, but you can have that 40%, that 30% who is just so, I think, anxious, not anxious as in eager, anxious as in the real definition of the word, that feel like there's, there's something unjust in the world and by George, they're going to get their two cents out of it.

• 48:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like, again, we talked about political correctness. You can be bothered by this or that, but the, the response to political correctness isn't overt meanness and cruelty and indifference to how your actions, decisions, word choices, et cetera, affect other people.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  You know, as I look at the political spectrum today, and I really try to withhold my little tweets.

• 48:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  I'm really trying to be introspective and hesitant in doing this. And realizing that on the response to this, there's somebody out there who I may be being unkind to. But I do believe that there's some basic things in this world that if we just looked what was best for the next generation, all stop.

• 49:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  The consideration is not your 40-year-old child. It's that 10-year-old girl, woman.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  What is best for her and her offspring? And I think we've got a pretty good life here in America today. And what we can do overseas, that's another issue that we can talk about. But here, let's prepare for a fabulous future.

• 49:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Whether we're in agriculture, keeping in mind in agriculture, we don't own the land, we're really just using it.

• 49:59Ryan Holiday?

  The bank's just letting you have it for a while.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Well, you're... In the bank of humanity and humankind, you are a sharecropper.

• 50:09Ryan Holiday?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  And so you value it, it's most pressured commodity. The air we breathe, etc.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  This is something that we need to be thinking about the next generation after next. And it's not all about everybody getting wealthy all the time, for crying out loud. It's about quality of life. And the elements of quality of life isn't necessarily that you've got a burgeoning income, but you just can get along and the life of those following you is a step better and that should make you exceedingly happy.

• 50:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, some of my frustrations with my parents and some of people in my parents' generation, now that I have young children, I have a five-year-old and a two-year-old, has really been like... Look, I get how this is good for your retirement accounts. I get how this is the way you've always liked things. But I gotta think about these kids 30 years from now. And I think we could all, as Americans, do a better job thinking of, you know, if everyone acted the way that I'm acting, what would that look like? Or if everyone thought as short term as I'm thinking right now, how, where would that leave us as a society? And I think some of the difficulties we're having now is because we've thought

• 51:30Ryan Holiday?

  short term for quite a long time. And we've kicked those problems down the road. And now they're, they're all right in front of us.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Well, the expediency politically is, the expediency from a political perspective is synonymous with something not, not well conceived.

• 51:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  And I, and I was going to say something more critical. Uh, you know, let's, let's take, let's just take environmental issues.

• 51:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Uh, McKinsey and Deloitte and so released reports today. Uh, and I'm an, I'm an engineer. I'm, I'm, I'm, I want to make sure that we've got a great future for the next generation. And that's part of, part of the quality of life. But maybe we as a nation really need to concentrate on what's happening in Uganda and Nigeria so that when they reach a standard of living that approximates ours and, and that's really what they ought to aspire to.

• 52:30Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Or something better than ours. I'll take for instance, South Korea, that they can do so environmentally in a friendly way and a, that looks out for the lowest elements, the lowest fringe of society and brings them forward. And they don't do the development that we did, which was rather carbon intensive. Let's, let's say, and, and did, did no, did a lot of not, not good things with the water, et cetera. Find more economical ways because we, you know, we're just at three and a half percent of the world's population, but we can really dictate how the rest of the world comes up.

• 53:06Ryan Holiday?

  That's that American empire that we were talking about. The soft empire.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And our empire legacy can be improving the quality of life worldwide, which everybody will benefit from.

• 53:19Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's right. Yeah, you know, you were quoting Hillel earlier, the if not me, then who? What I love, one of his, someone asked him if you could, if you could summarize the Torah while standing on one leg. And he said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself, all the rest is commentary." And it strikes me that religious or not, we have struggled, especially during the pandemic, of just plain giving a crap about other people, the way that we care about ourselves. And I think that, you know, is partly why we are where we are.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, I, as I'm jogging or walking or something, when I see somebody bend over and pick up a Sunday newspaper and put it in the stoop of the house when it's raining.

• 54:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  You know, that's what we, that's just that kind of mindset. And they're not looking for the, the next, to take note and say, "Hi, I'm doing this for you." They're just doing it. It's that type of outreach, regardless of who it is to just, and we've lost a lot of that in society. And then we categorize, we, we put titles over people. He's a liberal Democrat. Actually, define that for me. And, and of course, there's, there's, there's also a level of ignorance behind a lot of this.

• 54:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  You know, the fascist socialist is like, where'd this come from? What is that? I don't understand what that is. Just this name-calling that, that is so specious and undeserving, that, that too must be addressed.

• 55:02Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I imagine you get a lot of that. I get it too, for some of the stans that I've taken. And, you know, suddenly I'm, I'm being made into a, you know, a Marxist or something. And it's like, I'm financially well off. I live on a ranch in Texas. I own guns. I, you know, I like, I drive a Ford F-150. I am much more in alignment with you than you think you are. But to me, what comes well before your political

• 55:28Ryan Holiday?

  Beliefs, you know, if you like this policy or that policy, you know, this or that is, do you buy into the idea of a social contract, yes or no? And, and I think that's really what we're arguing about is some people have decided the social contract is null and void, and other people are fighting to uphold it. Some are Republicans, some are Democrats, but it's almost as if we're fighting between like nihilism and the system that has made America the most successful country in the history of the earth. It seems like an obvious choice to me, but apparently there's some debate.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Well, so here's another oddity. I was told, hey, don't tell anybody you went to MIT.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Well, I don't, but it's in my bio that, you know, I went, well, you should.

• 56:17Ryan Holiday?

  What are you, smart or something?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  You should take that out. You should take the fact that you went to graduate schools out. You should, you know, shh. It's like, when did that happen?

• 56:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  When did that happen that, that a family that has a, you know, starts out in a one-room schoolhouse and, you know, why is that a bad thing? I don't, I don't get it. I mean, isn't that kind of what we want in America? And, and, and shouldn't we, shouldn't we relish the opportunity to sit in class with those people who are less gifted with us academically? So we can help them come along? Why do we need to segregate these, these gifted kids from the kids that are, have, have a little more of a struggle in school? I don't entirely understand that. It's, you know, one time I, we were living in, outside of Washington

• 57:09Speaker 01

  DC in one of the more of ferny neighborhoods, and they were segregating the school districts. And the get together was actually held for the, for this, this vote on where to draw the line was actually in a church, a large church of a. Massive thing. And the people arguing vehemently to keep those apartment houses out of this school district. The apartment houses, just so you know, were like three miles away. And if they were kept out of our school district, they would be in this other school district that was like eight miles away.

• 57:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  So I mean, it makes sense to bring them in ours. I mean, come on.

• 57:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  It's logic. And yet, these God fearing fabulous people said, you know, we really don't want step in any school lunch program individuals in our school.

• 58:00Ryan Holiday?

  Oof.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  So I raised my hand and said, you know, doggone it, I'm gonna see some of you at either the, you know, church or synagogue the next morning.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I'm gonna look at you in a different way.

• 58:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  And there's, where's your sense? It ain't all about your little Jeffy and Suzie. This is about the Jeffys and Tyrones over there. Let's bring them as best we can up with us. All, all a rising tide is good for all ships.

• 58:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I, I heard a great sort of distinction of how they, they were saying that if you used to hear someone go, we're gonna put a, a pool in for the kids. Right? That meant we're putting in a public swimming pool for the neighborhood. And now, when you hear someone say, we're putting in a, a pool for the kids, they mean in their backyard for only their kids. Now, of course, you know, unfortunately, if you actually wrestle with American history for far too long, that meant a pool in the neighborhood for only a certain kind of kid, right? So it wasn't, you know, we, we can't whitewash what the past was. But I do think there is this distinction between sort of the, the community mindset versus the individualistic mindset

• 59:15Ryan Holiday?

  that, that, you know, again, during the pandemic, we've really struggled with how to think about things as a community as opposed to just what's good for me and mine.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Freedom to versus freedom from.

• 59:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, yes. Well, let me ask you one last thing because I know you're running for senate and I've been following your campaign. It's been interesting. My books have gotten a little bit of a following in Washington and I've gotten to go see different elected officials. And one of the things I always found interesting when I would talk to these people, so you know, you're talking to one of a hundred of the most powerful people in America and therefore the world. You talked earlier about the idea of the next rung, right? Everyone's always thinking about what do I do after this? I would think that, you know, becoming a senator is like as high as you can get. Now, this is a person with real power to affect change, to make things happen.

• 1:00:13Ryan Holiday?

  But it's always been interesting to me when you talk to these elected officials, how it's almost as if they're kind of passive observers as of what's happening, right? Like they're because they're, you know, thinking about reelection or they're thinking about, you know, being appointed to this officer, they're thinking about their party. How do you think as a person who served in the Navy and actually sort of did like as a leader, your job was to do things? How are you thinking about if you get elected? That you'll not fall into whatever that trap is that prevents people from making the principled, but perhaps costly decision now?

• 1:00:52Ryan Holiday?

  At the expense of, you know, being around later to then really do what they think they can do.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Complicated. So I thought you were going to ask me, what do you want to do after you're a senator? I was thinking, I want to, I want to eat that tree farm, the tree farm that I'll never experience the full grown trees, but you know, I would really like to do this. Coaching Special Olympics. I think of all these, but next hire, more important things. Some of it is just volunteering your expertise on the street that you're in, in your neighborhood, being in charge of your whole organization, whatever it is. I think you've got to keep giving of your gifts, your experiences until you can no longer do that. And, and on the range of import.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Well, that's an internal decision. Sure. And if it is taking care of a sickly neighbor for the next three years or a family member, you know, that's pretty doggone important in the greater scheme of things. And when you're gone, that energy that you did will be an important thing. And it doesn't, you know, you don't have to have a have a have a page dedicated to you in the almanac of Americans. It's not necessary. Sure. I mean, I I think the I think the end state for all of this is that you've got to have a large, large magazine of things you want to do. Yeah.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  And you've got to be realistic in what you can do. But if if if your your vision is shared by many, I tweeted this morning that I envision a light rail of a high-speed train system, not necessarily a light rail, that we electrify our trains instead of diesel locomotives. Sure. And that that that direct current line becomes an AC, a series of AC charging, DC and AC charging stations. And this is just part of this expanded electrical grid, which this nation needs to do to bring in EVs. Sure. And where we electrify, we take the Rural Electric Cooperative and we amp it

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  up to the 10th power. So, I mean, if I if I could have any job as as next, I mean, I would sacrifice running for the US Senate today. If someone said, Franken, you knucklehead, Africa, back to Africa, and set up a continent-wide electrical grid across boundaries as sustainable economical as you can to treat every village, every person, to be able to charge a cell phone, please give that job to me. And if I could be a Stapleton and that would be the last thing I would do on earth, I would do that. I can't think of anything better than to provide something like that

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  for a large mass of individuals. Now, for Iowa, I see a different agriculture and a different, I mean, a whole assortment of issues. So you line them up, and as long as your body and mind can keep at it, you tick those babies off. And then there'll come a time and you'll say, you know what, something that's less engaged but equally important on a smaller scale, it's time to jump off to that. I can't imagine, I can't imagine going to work and reflecting on my day and my wife saying, hey, how'd your

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  day go, dear? And I'm saying, you know, I just kind of coasted all day. She would say, oh, you need to go see, oh, something's wrong with you. You know, let me take sharp objects away from you.

• 1:04:49Ryan Holiday?

  But how do you think about, you know, and I think we saw a lot of this over the previous four years, where, you know, people thought, people would say one thing in private and then sort of vote or do another thing in public because they were worried about being reelected or challenging their base or being criticized by the president. I guess I'm just, how do you think about, let's say you get into office, you're there, and I hope you do, how do you make sure that that office doesn't change you? Because it seems like so many people get elected, then once they get there, all the values or skills

• 1:05:30Ryan Holiday?

  or, you know, courage that they had in their previous life, it seems to escape them and then they become this sort of creature of the political world. Have you thought about that?

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Oh, daily, hourly, minute by minute. So the key here, in my estimation, is to be yourself. And the problem with our political system is people buy you that office.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  It's as, it's as, it's as, I mean, that's what, that's where this crazy system that we have, where big donors, organizations, PACs, etc., help you get elected. And then there's, there's this unspoken thing about, hey, you owe me, dude. Right. Um, I mean, can you think of anything as improper as that? So, as a, as a naval officer, I think as a, as, as someone who doesn't necessarily keep tabs as to who gave me money, my campaign, I generally, I generally don't look at those reports at all. I'm only issues related. I'd rather read a, read a policy pa- paper

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  from Seis. Uh, your, one of your books, I mean, I'm, I'm looking at this one, I don't have it yet, by George, but I will, that, the, the fortune favors the brave. I'm gonna dissect it and send you a note about it. I would love that. So, it's one of these, well, I'm sure it'll be favorable, but, um, you know, I, people know when they vote for me, I hope, that they're voting for, you know, me. And, and it's a collection of, of experiences. Uh, and I, and I said to a, a farmer in northwest Iowa the other day, and he's voted for nothing but a Republican his entire life, I'm sure of it. Uh, he said, hey Frank, and we kinda need your assistance to, to, to bring about

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  these changes in the corporate structure and agriculture, blah, blah, blah. And, um, I said, fine. Uh, and I think the reason he called me is because he knows, you know, where I grew up, he knows my sisters, uh, he knows my mom and dad, uh, and he, he, you know, he's, he's talked with me before, we've had a beer, um, he knows kinda where I am. And frankly, I can't think of anything more important than, uh, like a, like Senator Manchin saying, if this is best for West Virginia, I'm going with what's best for West Virginia.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  And then either, either upsetting West Virginia, or the, or the Republicans, or the Democrats, I don't know who the hell it would be, but ultimately to get voted out of office. And you know what? He did the right thing for his constituents. He did what's right for the region. He did what's right for the region's progeny. It's okay to lose your office for that. And you know what? Celebrate that. Have a, have a, have a holiday that you get voted out of office. What the hell? It's designed to have this rejuvenating, regenerative system. It's not meant to have people that are in office for 46 years.

• 1:08:43Ryan Holiday?

  See, you're not supposed to preserve yourself at all costs. That it's, it's not a lifetime appointment. It's a, it, you're supposed to go there, do a job. And as you said, even with your friend who's the admiral, you're supposed to do your job. Hopefully it cuts your way, but if it doesn't, then you move on and you do the next right thing.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Well, if, if, if we could have senators run for no more than two terms, if we could have House of Representatives become a four-year stint and no more than three of those stints. If we can make the president run for a single five-year period and then never run again, I think our nation would be better off.

• 1:09:19Ryan Holiday?

  I agree.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  And I mean, it's time for a wash.

• 1:09:23Ryan Holiday?

  I think, I think that's right. And, and hopefully Iowa will, will see its first refresh in a, in a very long time as well with you.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope so. We shall see.

• 1:09:34Ryan Holiday?

  It, it was an honor. Thank you for the service and I really appreciate this conversation.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Thank you, sir. Thank you, Ron, very much.

• 1:09:41Ryan Holiday?

  Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic Podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it. And this isn't to sell anything, I just wanted to say thank you.