A Depth of Trust

Teamwork is an essential part of everyday life. Discover how candid cultures that invite ideas from every level of an organization can be the difference between failure and a miracle.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:19Katy Milkman?

  It's February 1st, 2003. Seven astronauts are just minutes from home, hurtling through the atmosphere at 18 times the speed of sound.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  GC plane. Flight GC. Lock the doors. Copy.

• 0:35Katy Milkman?

  But as the world watches the sky over Texas, the Space Shuttle Columbia isn't landing. It's breaking apart.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  The debris was seen falling from the skies above Texas. The Columbia's lost. Onboard was a crew of seven. There are no survivors.

• 0:56Katy Milkman?

  The tragedy was blamed on a mechanical failure, a piece of foam insulation striking the wing during launch. But the real failure happened a week before. An engineer saw the damage and knew the risk. He asked for satellite photos, but managers blocked him, insisting there was no safety of flight issue. He even drafted an urgent alert to his superiors, but in the end, he never sent it.

• 1:23Katy Milkman?

  It took over two years of grounded flights and an investigation for NASA to realize the disaster wasn't just a flight failure. It was an organizational one, driven by a culture that didn't encourage speaking up.

• 1:41Katy Milkman?

  In this episode, we explore what happens when people feel safe enough to raise concerns and how creating the right working conditions can mean the difference between life and death.

• 2:01Katy Milkman?

  I'm Dr. Katie Milkman, and this is Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. It's a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. We bring you true and surprising stories about high-stakes choices, and then we examine how these stories connect to the latest research in behavioral science. We do it all to help you make better judgments and avoid costly mistakes.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  When the miners are having lunch, they tend to have lunch in a little shelter that was way down at the bottom of the mine. They would keep their lunch there. There was water there. They could take their break. So on this day, they heard like a huge crack.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  And it was something that none of them had ever heard before. And it was like their world just shattered.

• 2:59Katy Milkman?

  The air inside the mine explodes.

• 3:04Katy Milkman?

  Dust and debris are everywhere. And in seconds, the way out disappears. The men understand immediately, this was a full collapse.

• 3:19Katy Milkman?

  Copiapo in northern Chile is one of the region's most important mining cities. Just outside of town, the desert landscape is dotted with gold, silver, and copper mines.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  The miners who worked in the San Jose mine would often talk about how the mine would cry. And I didn't understand what they were talking about. And they explained, oh, cry is when like little boulders would fall from the roof. And these aren't so little, like the size of a refrigerator. But that was like when the mine was crying. They knew that this mine was shifting, and it had been mined really haphazardly.

• 3:52Katy Milkman?

  This is Jonathan Franklin. He's a journalist based in Santiago, who was on the front lines during the San Jose mining incident. The gold and silver mine had been in operation for over 100 years. It was isolated in the desert, so safety checks from the government were not very frequent.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  It was known to be so dangerous that the workers themselves, they would call themselves the kamakazis because they got paid really good, but it was really dangerous.

• 4:18Katy Milkman?

  The miners' safety was never guaranteed.

• 4:21Speaker 03

  They literally prayed on the way in.

• 4:24Katy Milkman?

  On August 5 of 2010, the miners' worst fears became a reality.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  It turns out that it was a piece of rock many times bigger than the Empire State Building.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  And it kind of slid like a big gate and just sealed them in this chamber 900 meters deep. This wasn't like a rock slide. This wasn't something you could dig through. This was like, there was no way they were ever going to get out. From the beginning, this was a death sentence.

• 4:53Katy Milkman?

  Thirty-three miners were trapped half a mile underground, and nobody knew if they were dead or alive. From the start, the rescue faced a terrifying problem.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  There's many debates about what the solution might be, like how would you even begin to look for them? There's basically no maps of the mine. The maps are useless.

• 5:14Katy Milkman?

  Years of haphazard expansion of the mine meant that maps were inaccurate and incomplete.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Their initial challenge is that they have very poor maps, not a deep understanding of the different geological features they have to drill through, and the clock ticking in their head that, you know, every day, somebody might die.

• 5:35Katy Milkman?

  Word spread quickly. Drilling crews arrived. Then the Chilean government stepped in, including Chile's mining minister, Lawrence Goldborn, and then-president, Sebastian Pinera.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  So when this happens, all of the president's aides say, "Mr. President, stay away. Mine accident means dead miners." But being an entrepreneur and being a very savvy thinker, Sebastian Pinera said, "We're going to pull them out alive."

• 6:04Katy Milkman?

  It was a bold promise. No one had any idea what condition the miners were in. But what Pinera did know was that he would need help.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  President Pinera immediately acknowledged that he had no idea, no idea how to do this. So he started to convene the best safety experts across Chile. And just south of Santiago, he found a man named Andre Sugarett.

• 6:29Katy Milkman?

  Andre Sugarett was a mining executive who at the time managed the world's largest underground mine.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  So when Andre Sugarett lands in the desert, it's like a Sahara dune, like there's no plants. It's completely barren. It's windy. It's kind of golden colored. And so he's driving up into this like Never Never Land. And what he sees is dozens and dozens of family members of the trapped miners staring at him. And nobody's applauding. They're not smiling. But he later compared it to walking past a jury. And he said for the entire rescue, that kind of moral imperative was what drove him to barely sleep and to recruit the best of the best from every corner of the world.

• 7:14Katy Milkman?

  Other people from Chile's mining community had already gathered and begun drilling small exploratory holes to try to locate the safety refuge. They figured it was the most likely place the miners would be if they had survived the collapse. But Sugarett realized that finding them would take more than guesswork. It would take a team with diverse skills and experiences.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Within about 10 days of the miners being trapped, there's people volunteering from all over the world. You have South Africans, Brazilians, NASA submarine commanders. And you also have a kind of a central mess hall where everybody eats. And this becomes like the United Nations where they debate everything.

• 7:57Katy Milkman?

  Experts would go back and forth pitching solutions.

• 8:00Speaker 03

  People would describe, you know, I've drilled in this area, so I know that the first 100 meters are this. Then you hit this. The South Africans would say, yeah, but you need bits that can last for weeks because it's going to take weeks to get down to them. And people didn't laugh off bad ideas, but the bad ideas seemed to die pretty quickly.

• 8:21Katy Milkman?

  More than two weeks of exploratory drilling went by without a single sign that the men were still alive. And while it was quiet deep underground, things were getting loud up on the surface.

• 8:35Katy Milkman?

  Pressure from the miners' families was increasing, with many of them camped outside the site in a swelling settlement dubbed Camp Esperanza, or Camp Hope.

• 8:45Katy Milkman?

  Hundreds of reporters flocked to the scene.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  Massive collapse at the San Jose Mine. Rescuers are drilling through solid-

• 8:51Speaker 05

  One thing we know for certain: Time is running-

• 8:53Katy Milkman?

  And the eyes of an entire nation were watching as the search for the safety refuge became a race against time.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  It was a target that they missed time and time and time again. I believe it was the first 17 times they drilled, the men in the room, they could hear the drills come closer and closer, and then just miss them. Closer and closer, and stop.

• 9:20Katy Milkman?

  Then, on the 18th drill attempt.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  The drill bit actually ripped through the roof of the shelter where the men were living and surviving.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  When they pull up one of their drills, the rescuers see a note, and they reach up and they scrape away the mud and scrape away the water, and there's a note tied by elastic to the drill bit. And they open the note, and it says, "Estamos bien en el refugio, los 33." "We are in the safety spot, all 33."

• 10:01Katy Milkman?

  Finally, the miners had been confirmed alive. It was an enormous relief for the men's families and loved ones, and to everyone on the rescue team who had been working around the clock. All of Chile breathed a sigh of relief.

• 10:21Katy Milkman?

  But that initial joy was short-lived. Communication was now possible, but it was fragile. Through this tiny opening, a literal lifeline began to flow. Cameras, audio devices, medicine, and finally, real food. Still, the hardest part lay ahead. Finding them was one thing, getting them out was another. Andre Sugaret knew it was risky to rely on just one plan. He decided that three different drilling ideas and technologies would be tested at once.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C. And they were different kinds of drilling techniques. One might bore out and pull at it, the other one might smash it to pieces. It was different techniques that are extremely well-used worldwide, but in this case, the most important factor was speed.

• 11:15Katy Milkman?

  Plan A involved drilling a new rescue shaft directly above the mine, then gradually widening it. This approach would take an estimated three to four months. Plan B focused on widening an existing borehole using a hammer drilling technique. Rescuers predicted a quicker two-month process. Team B included a young engineer named Igor Proystakis. At just 24 years old, he was one of the more junior members. Yet he got to pitch the hammer drilling plan to Andre Sugaret. Sugaret approved, and the hammer drill was underway.

• 11:57Katy Milkman?

  Lastly, Plan C employed a high-speed oil drilling rig. But it would take some time to transport and construct the drill on-site at the San Jose Mine. None of the three plans were foolproof. Many of the technologies involved hadn't been used under similar conditions or so far underground before. It was trial and error.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  There was times when a plan would be down for a couple of days because something exploded and they had to fly it in from Chicago. So, things would break down and plans would be stalled for days.

• 12:32Katy Milkman?

  But after several days of drilling, the rescue teams were making good progress on Plans A and B. Until, Plan B hit a major roadblock.

• 12:48Katy Milkman?

  The drill head had collided with iron rods used to reinforce the mine, which shredded and entangled the drill head. For five days, crews tried to remove the stuck metal chunks but failed. If the broken equipment couldn't be cleared, the rescue team working on Plan B would have to start all over again and drill a brand-new borehole. That's when the junior engineer on Team B spoke up.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  Igor, a young engineer, he actually approaches Minister Goldborn, the mining minister. You know, and the mining minister was stressed beyond belief. And this is a very junior, young man approaching him. But the spirit of the rescue was that, you know, there were no bad ideas or at least ideas would be considered.

• 13:31Katy Milkman?

  Igor remembered a technique he'd learned in a university class, nicknamed the spider. It's a tool used to recover lost material from deep inside a mine. A spider is basically an open metal jaw with sharp teeth. It's lowered to the bottom of a mine shaft and opened around the target. In this case, the drill bit pieces that needed to be removed. Then, extreme pressure is applied from above so that its teeth slowly snap shut like a spider trapping its prey. The technique was crude but time-tested. When Igor brought the idea forward, Goldborn and Sugaret were willing to listen.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  The mining minister instantly agrees that Igor's idea is key and tells his team to apply it.

• 14:19Katy Milkman?

  Igor's idea worked. The spider removed the drill head bits that were blocking the path below. Plan B was moving ahead again.

• 14:33Katy Milkman?

  Looking back, Igor has shared that he was struck by the weight of that moment. He knew this was the most high-stakes, career-defining mission of Sugaret's life. Yet the veteran leader hadn't let Igor's age or junior status get in the way. He'd valued the young engineer's input and given him a seat at the table when it mattered most. That trust was now the mission's last lifeline. As the drills for Plan A and Plan C stalled out from major setbacks, Plan B became the only hope left, steadily grinding its way toward the miners.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Plan B was the little engine that could and just kept on going.

• 15:12Katy Milkman?

  On October 9th, more than two months after the original mine collapsed, the Plan B drill broke through.

• 15:30Katy Milkman?

  The rescuers rigged a capsule above the shaft and lowered it to the 33 men anxiously waiting below.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  They have to climb into what's like basically a round, tiny little elevator, and it very slowly like drags you up and up and up.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  As they're coming up, it's pretty dark. They have a light on them so they can see a bit of the walls going by, but it's like being inside this very weird tube, and it curves a little this way and that way, kind of like Space Mountain at Disneyland, but in slow motion. And when the first person gets up, people start crying and screaming. You think Chile had won the World Cup.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  People were so excited, and he walked out, and he wasn't skinny, he wasn't, didn't look unhealthy, you know, he just looked like he was gonna make it.

• 16:22Katy Milkman?

  One by one, the miners sat in the capsule for a 45-minute journey that brought them up to the surface and into the arms of their teary-eyed families, medical professionals, and media crews. All 33 miners were safely extracted from the San Jose Mine. A miner and his president.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  It was the closing chapter on just a most remarkable, like, example of teamwork from people from around the world.

• 16:56Katy Milkman?

  Jonathan Franklin is a journalist based in Santiago, Chile. He's the author of 33 Men: Inside the Miraculous Survival and Dramatic Rescue of the Chilean Miners. You can find links to his work in our show notes and at schwab.com/podcast.

• 17:19Katy Milkman?

  The San Jose Mine Rescue was a masterclass in global collaboration. Beyond raw skill and persistence, the mission's success hinged on a rare team culture, one where rank didn't silence good ideas, and even the most junior voices carried weight. Igor Poistakis, the 24-year-old engineer who spoke up and suggested the use of a spider tool to get Plan B back on track, wasn't the most experienced person in the room. But he felt empowered to suggest an idea to clear a major problem, a drillhead that was stuck and threatening everything. Without his vital input, Plan B might have remained stalled indefinitely.

• 18:02Katy Milkman?

  My next guest is an expert on team dynamics and a world-renowned researcher, whose work has revealed just how important it is to build cultures that invite candor. Amy Edmondson is the Novartis professor of leadership and management at the Harvard Business School. Amy studies leadership, organizational learning, and change, and is best known for her pioneering work on psychological safety. Her book on the topic, The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth, has been translated into 15 languages. Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for joining me today.

• 18:39Speaker 06

  It's a pleasure.

• 18:40Katy Milkman?

  Well, I'm really excited to talk to you about your amazing research on psychological safety. And I was hoping you could start by offering us an explainer of what it means for a group or a team to be psychologically safe.

• 18:54Speaker 06

  It is an environment where candor is expected. Candor is welcome. You do not believe you will be punished, or shamed, or otherwise rejected for speaking up with honest, work-relevant content, for saying what you think, for asking for help, for offering a dissenting view, for admitting a mistake. So it's an environment where we can be real with each other. And not that that's easy, or fun, or comfortable, but that you Understand it to be expected. And I just want to add that that isn't the norm, right, in most workplaces. People will be much more likely to hold back things that they're thinking,

• 19:37Speaker 06

  even if they think they might be very relevant indeed than to speak up. So I've just spent an awful lot of time thinking, you know, how do we make this easier? And that's what psychological safety is.

• 19:50Katy Milkman?

  I would love it if you could describe one or two of your favorite research studies showing differences in outcomes that groups experience if they are able to successfully foster psychological safety.

• 20:03Speaker 06

  Two of my favorites would be ones I did in hospital settings. And one was with Ingrid Nemhard, one of your colleagues, and Anita Tucker at BU. And we studied a hundred or so teams in 23 different neonatal intensive care units that were actively working on quality improvement projects. And what we found was one of the most powerful predictors of implementation success was psychological safety. So first of all, you have to realize that the teams really varied in terms of their psychological safety, of their candor. And then when they had higher psychological safety, they were more able to do this really life-changing work of quality improvement.

• 20:47Speaker 06

  And the other one, also in a hospital setting, was 16 different teams and 16 different cardiac surgery departments, all trying to implement a radically innovative technology for minimally invasive surgery. And those teams, these are operating room teams now, that had higher psychological safety, were more able to make the changes happen that you needed to make to be able to really successfully implement the new technology. So those are both, I love them, I guess, because the relationships were quite strong and because the implications are life-changing.

• 21:22Katy Milkman?

  Yeah, I love that work that you've done in hospitals. It's so important, and I teach it in my classroom at Wharton. I should say, Amy, every year. And it's a lightbulb moment for all of my students every time. I want to ask you to dig in a little bit to what's going on here and why it is that candor and psychological safety on these teams seems to lead to better outcomes. Because I think part of what makes this so interesting is the counterintuitive aspect to it, which is that we all kind of think that having a really tough leader who doesn't tolerate mistakes, it seems like it would be critically important in life and death situations. So could you talk a little bit about what is going on with this effect?

• 21:59Speaker 06

  Sometimes I find it hard to explain it and yet, bear with me, because I think I can, I think I can do it. So I think many of us were brought up with the notion of, you know, failure is not an option and as, you know, you should be a tough leader or teacher or whatever that says, you know, this is what I expect and then you're more likely to get it. And in fact, I was talking to executives in a financial services company who were like, well, we just can't have failures. And I understand where they're coming from. I even empathize enormously with the sentiment behind what they're saying. But what the reality is, when you say you must not make mistakes, you don't magically create human beings who don't make mistakes.

• 22:41Speaker 06

  You basically vastly increase the chances that you won't hear about the mistakes that do happen. And mistakes that we don't hear about have far more pernicious outcomes than the ones that we catch, speak up about, correct quickly. And, and so even when you have people working hard, leaning in to do their very best work, not only will we make mistakes, but perhaps more importantly nowadays, there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of change. So things will go wrong even that are not technically speaking mistakes, but that are just unexpected outcomes of maybe small experiments or unexpected events that happen that just sort of change the course of what we're doing.

• 23:22Speaker 06

  And so you could say that in times of uncertainty and interdependence, what's most important is the speed at which people are sharing what they see, what they know, what's really going on. Because when we know what's happening, then we have a prayer of Reacting to it in a productive way. So the mechanism is that we need transparency. We need to know what's really going on as quickly as possible so that we can react accordingly. So you want to create an environment that has both high standards. You know, people are motivated and committed to doing the best work they can, but also high candor.

• 24:03Speaker 06

  And that the combination of sort of high standards and high candor is what I like to call the learning zone. But that's where good performance, whether it's quality improvement in the NICU or innovation, or you name it, whatever work you do, a consulting project, that's where the best work happens is when we're really motivated and really candid.

• 24:26Katy Milkman?

  It's so intuitive to know you want high standards. And the part that makes your work so interesting and important, I think, is that people forget that that could come at the cost of creating a psychologically safe environment or creating candor. And if it does, they've actually created a really bad situation for their team's success.

• 24:45Speaker 06

  Yes, that's well put. Like even the best intentioned leaders may fail to realize how their effort to create high standards inadvertently created high fear.

• 24:57Katy Milkman?

  Yep.

• 24:57Speaker 06

  And high fear limited people's ability to process the work carefully and to speak up openly.

• 25:04Katy Milkman?

  Amy, can you tell us about things that leaders or just individuals can do to create a more psychologically safe space? Whether it's on a NICU team or a financial advisor who wants their client to feel psychologically safe talking about their financial decisions?

• 25:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think that in both contexts, it would be almost the same advice, which would be, call attention to uncertainty or interdependence or both. Or novelty, by the way, which is related to uncertainty. But if you're a financial advisor and working with a team, you might say, none of us has a crystal ball, right?

• 25:43Katy Milkman?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 06

  Boy, we wish we did, but we don't. So your voice matters, right? Anyone's voice could make a crucial difference at an Unexpected time, or you know, you're in a patient care ward, you might say, I could so easily miss something. I really need you. In a sense, these kinds of moves, I call them framing moves. They're reminding us that the work that lies ahead is more of a learning problem than a mere execution problem. Because I think most of us come to work every day with a mental model or a frame that says, I just got to get through the list. I gotta, I gotta get my work done. Like we, we bring an execution frame to a learning problem erroneously all the time. Because most of us

• 26:25Speaker 06

  would be, you know, better served by engaging fully in paying attention to what's going on, what might we try, what's working, what's not working. So, so framing, calling attention to uncertainty, interdependence, novelty, so that you get everybody on that same page of, yep, we're learning, not just doing. And related to that, ask more questions, right? As a, as a leader, you should be in the habit of constantly asking questions. What are you hearing from the customers? What ideas do you have? People will not hold back when they know their voice is invited. So just do more of it. And then finally, and obviously, pay attention to how you respond. You know,

• 27:08Speaker 06

  what's your face doing? When someone speaks up with a dissenting view, do you look annoyed? Or do you look curious? When someone brings to your attention a mistake that's actually going to delay the project, do you say, how the heck did that happen? Or do you say, thank you so much for that clear line of sight, how can I help? Right? And just these little things, these little tiny reactions, especially to bad moments, because those bad moments are already bad, but you can make them better. And you can show that yes, candor is not always fun, but it is always welcome.

• 27:43Katy Milkman?

  I love that. I suspect there are a lot of myths that you've come across around psychological safety. I'm curious if there are any myths that you think it's important to dispel for people to really understand this idea and how to implement it properly.

• 27:58Speaker 06

  Probably the number one myth is that psychological safety is about being comfortable, right? That, you know, it gets confused with safe spaces, like, you know, trigger alerts. And what I want in my classroom, for example, is that for people to be willing to take risks, knowing that those risks will not end badly in the form of humiliation or bad grades, but in fact, will help their own and others' learning. And closely related is the misconception that it's about being nice. And I don't hear me saying, I think it's great to be mean to people. No, right? But nice is, in the vernacular, often interpreted as, don't say what you really

• 28:41Speaker 06

  think. You know, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. We, some of us grew up with that. But I hear people making a distinction between being kind and being nice. You know, being kind, I'll tell you, you have spinach in your teeth, or that your idea wasn't very good, because I respect and care about you enough to give you that sort of truthful feedback. Whereas being nice would be like, oh, great idea, Katie, love that idea. So it's, it's, um, psychological safety, we're not wrapping people in, in cotton wool, we're not making people feel comfortable. And probably one more, if you'll indulge me, one more misconception is that

• 29:15Katy Milkman?

  Please, yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 06

  This sort of idea that our hands are tied if the bosses, or the bosses, bosses, bosses, aren't interested in this. It's like, forget about it. This does not have to be top down. This has to be, wherever you are, you can show up with more humility, with more curiosity, with more inquiry, and you can start to create little pockets of learning and energy wherever you are. So it's not something where you have to wait, where it has to be top down. It's something that's fundamentally team level.

• 29:52Speaker 06

  You can show up as a learner and make that small difference every single day.

• 29:58Katy Milkman?

  That's really great. And I think for some of our listeners also, and trying to think about how this also applies to the financial decision making, which is a topic we care a lot about on this podcast. It also suggests there's an opportunity if you are not the person giving advice, you're the person seeking advice, there are opportunities to express how much you want to learn, to ask lots of questions and to create a space where it's going to be easier to work with a coach or someone who has more knowledge and get the most out of that interaction by creating a psychologically safe environment, even when you're not in a position of power.

• 30:32Speaker 06

  Yes, I sometimes think that courage and psychological safety are two sides of the same coin.

• 30:40Katy Milkman?

  Yeah, no, that's really interesting. Do you have any advice for our listeners on how they can make better decisions, be more successful, be more productive, now that they understand the importance of psychological safety?

• 30:54Speaker 06

  Yes, I think that the importance of psychological safety is most manifested in the quality of the conversations you have with your colleagues, you know, in your teams. And there's really three dimensions. One is, let's make sure people don't hold back work relevant content, right? Let's, let's create the environment where people know their voice is expected. Number two, pay close attention to building a healthy mix of statements and questions, you know, of what my mentor, Chris Arger, has called advocacy and inquiry. Most conversations are dominated by statements and there is very little in the way of genuine inquiry. So if you start noticing that, you can start leaning into more questions. And

• 31:39Speaker 06

  I think the third element of a high quality conversation is When you feel you're getting smarter as a result of being a part of it, right? So if you're not feeling that this conversation is going somewhere, or that we're making progress toward an uncertain decision, do something about it. It's like you have a responsibility not just to say, oh, this conversation's going around in circles, but to pause it and say, hey, seems to me we're going around in circles. Do others see it too? If you think of your primary job in knowledge-based industries as steering and participating in high-quality conversations, and those better happen in psychologically safe environments, then your job is just

• 32:23Speaker 06

  to keep facilitating those, keep participating in those, and just improve them every single day. And that will improve the quality of outcomes.

• 32:33Katy Milkman?

  I love that. And thank you so much for this conversation, which certainly made me feel smarter. And I know our listeners will feel the same way. I really appreciate you taking the time.

• 32:43Speaker 06

  It was great to be with you.

• 32:50Katy Milkman?

  Amy Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School. You can find a link to her book on psychological safety, The Fearless Organization, and to her other excellent books on Teams and the Science of Failing Well in our show notes, or visit schwab.com/choysology.

• 33:12Katy Milkman?

  Open, honest communication is important in any relationship, including with your financial advisor. To learn more about building trust and maintaining open communication with an advisor, check out the Financial Decoder episode, What Should Your Advisor Know About You? You can find it at schwab.com/financialdecoder, or just search your podcast app.

• 33:35Katy Milkman?

  In 2012, Google launched an effort called Project Aristotle, which was an internal attempt to understand what best predicted the performance of nearly 200 teams working in engineering and sales. Many people expected the biggest differentiators to be things like team size, leadership quality, and the IQs of individual team members. Instead, the strongest predictor of success was whether teams had built a psychologically safe culture, measured using insights from Amy Edmondson's work. As a result, Google and many other organizations began investing heavily in creating psychological safety. They worked to craft cultures where people felt comfortable being candid,

• 34:17Katy Milkman?

  taking risks, and trusting that they wouldn't be punished for admitting mistakes, asking questions, or offering unconventional ideas. What I hope you'll take from this episode, though, isn't that psychological safety is valuable at Google, or NASA, or in hospital NICUs, or when mining engineers are racing to save lives. I hope you'll see that it's valuable everywhere. By remembering how much it matters to signal that you want to learn from the people around you, by asking questions with genuine curiosity, by modeling candor, and by showing respect for people regardless of their status, you can help create a psychologically safe climate anywhere: with your family, at work, with your soccer team, with your doctor,

• 35:02Katy Milkman?

  or with your financial advisor. And it's worth the effort.

• 35:20Katy Milkman?

  You've been listening to Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. If you've enjoyed the show, we'd be really grateful if you'd leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or feedback wherever you listen. You can also follow us for free in your favorite podcasting app. And if you want more of the kinds of insights we bring you on Choiceology about how to improve your decisions, you can order my book, How to Change, or sign up for my monthly newsletter, Milkman Delivers, on Substack. That's it for season 17 of Choiceology. We'll be back in the fall, but in the meantime, you can explore over 100 episodes in our back catalog. Search for Choiceology on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'm Dr.

• 36:05Katy Milkman?

  Katie Milkman. Talk to you soon.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  For important disclosures, see the show notes or visit schwab.com/choiceology.