Rio Ferdinand Reveals The Training Ground & Dressing Room Secrets That Made United Unbeatable.

This week’s podcast guest, is not like any I’ve had on before... I am proud to introduce to you my friend, and football legend Rio Ferdinand. As a former Football player, he is one of the most decorated English footballers of all time and regarded by many loyal fans – one of England’s greatest players. I grew up as a United Fan, watching him, idolising him and now he is my mate. Growing up on an Estate in Peckham, Rio’s parents encouraged his curiosity. Many of you, may not know, Rio danced ballet to a high standard before choosing to pursue a career in football... and well, you might think you know how the story goes. You don’t. In this open, intimate and honest conversation Rio talks about his achievements, failures, successes and how his life experiences have made him the father he is today. Rio has broken many football records during his premiership – He joined Manchester United in July 2002 for record breaking fee of £30 million. He has featured in the PFA Team of the Year four times in 5 years. More club magic spread, as the club followed with another Premier league Win in 2006-07 all under Sir Alex Fergusons lead. During Rio’s time at United, Rio respectfully won 6 Premier League Titles and 14 Trophies. Rio announced his retirements from professional football on 30 May 2015. After retirement Rio has joined BT Sport as a Pundit. The BBC one documentary - Rio Ferdinand: Being Mum and Dad. The documentary won the Robert Flaherty Award for Single Documentary at the 2018 BAFTA Awards. Rio is a special guy, not least for what he’s achieved but for who he is. Today, you’re going to find out who he actually is. The philosophy to life that he swears by, and the culture required for you to win in an ambitious career - but also the culture required to win in your personal life. Follow Rio: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/rioferdy5 YouTube - www.youtube.com/@5magazine Twitter - https://twitter.com/rioferdy5 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  How did they create high standards at Old Trafford? Because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life. You must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't. What are the things that matter?

• 0:13Speaker 01

  If people were in 10, 20 years, say that's Rio played for Man United, I haven't really done what I'm here to do.

• 0:27Steven Bartlett?

  Do I even need to introduce my next guest? Rio Ferdinand, former football player, one of the most decorated English footballers of all time. And as a Man United fan, probably one of my favorite players of all time ever. And he's played alongside some of the greatest players ever, but he's also been managed by the best manager ever. I grew up as a Manchester United fan, watching him, idolizing him. And now he's my mate. So this is going to be a fairly interesting conversation. After retiring, he's become a sports commentator for BT Sport. He's become an author, he's become an entrepreneur, he's the founder of a charity, a foundation. He's a non-executive director, which we'll talk about today as well. And as you'll hear, he's also so much more. Some things that you probably wouldn't expect.

• 1:12Steven Bartlett?

  He's also a husband and a dad. One that's experienced tremendous unthinkable tragedy, tragedy I pray that most of us will never know. Rio is a special guy, not least for what he's achieved on the field, but for who he is. And today, you're going to find out who he actually is. The philosophy to life that he swears by and the culture required to win in an ambitious career. But also the culture required to win in your personal life. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:55Steven Bartlett?

  I'm trying to find the right words to ask this question because it's one that I've, I haven't seen been asked in previous interviews of you, but what are the, what are the key things that happened when you were very, very young that made you choose football as your future or enabled you to, to, to take that path? Because a lot of kids grew up in London, a lot of kids do a lot of things, they have a lot of passions, but for some reason, as I read through your story, football was this ballet as well, but football was the, the path that you chose to take above all other things?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a good question because when I was younger, I was into everything. I was running around on the estate, I was doing gymnastics a couple of times a week, I was doing ballet, I was obviously playing football, I was doing athletics, I was doing a drama class.

• 2:39Steven Bartlett?

  Why were you doing all those things there?

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Because I just was interested in it all, I liked it, I enjoyed it. And my mum and dad were really, my mum especially were really like, if you like something, go and do it, try it. They were always like that, go and do it, what's, what's the worst it can do is you, you don't enjoy it. I used to do karate sometimes as well. And I got to a point, I think I was like 13 or 14 years old. And obviously my dad was having to come from east, like, obviously we live in South London, he'd drive to east, north east London, drive home, pick me up from school, take me to West London to play football, back to dropping friends off on the way, it's, it's hard graft. And in the end, I got to 13, 14 years old and my dad said, listen, you're doing a lot at the moment, you're going to burn yourself out.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  So let's just pick something that you really enjoy and you want to do and just go for it. And I was like, it was like an easy conversation. It was difficult in that I had to let down our thought and disappoint Central School of Ballet where I was doing it, which is a real, like a top school in London, in Farringdon. And I made good friends there and the other stuff, I wasn't too that concerned about it, but. Four years I was, three or four years I was at the Central School of Ballet, so I'd got good relationships there. Told them I couldn't do it and then went full throttle and full steam ahead with football and it was just, it was the best decision I've obviously made in my life in that sense, but I was, I knew that that was my passion. I liked the other stuff, I enjoyed doing the other stuff.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  They were good distractions from what was probably going on in my estate as well, probably my parents thought like that as well. But football was the something that I got out every day from when I knocked on my friends' house. Borrow your ball, let's go and play football, et cetera, so.

• 4:21Steven Bartlett?

  Ballet, interesting one. A lot of people don't know that you did ballet, but it sounds like you did it at a pretty good level.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I've done gymnastics, gymnastics at the London Olympic Games and they obviously, I didn't notice there were scouts there from, from ballet schools or someone was watching or a family friend was there and they said, oh, he looks like, you know, I don't know what I had or what I was, my posture or something like that, looks good to be a ballet dancer. So I went there and I wasn't really one for saying no to stuff, I was like, I'll try it, I'll try anything. And they said, and one of the reasons I was going to be able to get off my estate, meet new people, new girls maybe, as a young kid, and then it was in a different part of London, travelling, so I've done it.

• 5:05Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny, I read, I read a tweet the other day which was kind of linked to something you said there and it said, on the way up, say yes to everything. When you get to the top, start saying no to everything.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:14Steven Bartlett?

  And it sounds like, yeah, and it's like, and I'm almost seeing that as well when we, the conversation we're having now about like the stuff you're up to now.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Try it, like. What's, what's the, I always think this, what's the worst thing that can happen, as long as it's not a health issue.

• 5:27Steven Bartlett?

  I might fail.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  I might, I might not be good at it, I might fail, who cares, it's like with the boxing. I wanted to go try and be from a professional footballer, just try and be a professional boxer. Crazy, yeah, but what's the worst that can really happen? I lose the fight, my life goes on, that's it, so, but some people. They can't allow their ego to be squashed maybe at a certain point or their pride. And they're sitting there as this macho person, they can't feel vulnerable at any point. And when you try things, there is an element of vulnerability that comes with that. Cause you're opening yourself up, you're leaving yourself a bit wide open for criticism, for failure. But I'm not scared of failure. I never have been. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not fearful and that's what I try and put in my kids. If you fail, what, get up and go again.

• 6:12Steven Bartlett?

  People like they, they trap themselves in their career in their sense, their sort of self-identity because we were talking before we started chatting about like me trying to resist my labels now I've left social chain. They think they are an X. But from a very, very young age, and I'm kind of connecting the dots now through the rest of your life, and even now. You, worse, you were a kid on the estate in Peckham and that is an identity. That's not one that's also conducive with ballet.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  No, it's just such that the different ends of the spectrum, like you just wouldn't associate one with the other. And again, I, I, I wasn't, we were speaking just as you mentioned before, before we came on here. Uh, one of the things that I, my mum used to say to me is that don't let anyone tell you what you are. Don't be pigeonholed. I mean, you go and find out and explore and find out what you are. And you've got to have experiences to get to that point. It's not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen in your childhood. Not in your teens. When you get to become an adult, you'll start working your way and finding out who you are and what you are. And I've always thought that. So going to ballet school, I could have been ridiculed, my mates, I was one of the boys on the estate. But at the same time, I was confident enough that, oh, Rio, you're going ballet, laughing, I don't care, what?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  And I know I'm good at football. I know I'm good. I'm the fastest runner on the estate in my age group. I can keep up with the older boys, what, just because I go ballet, what, there's nothing wrong.

• 7:28Steven Bartlett?

  Who are you? And to answer that question, you know, your mum's telling you to go out and find out who you are. Did you ever answer that question?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Not really. I, I think that question, you don't really answer it in the end. I think you, you're always evolving. It's like, for instance, it's something you said earlier, it pricked my ears about. You said more or less the same thing, just in a different way, probably a more eloquent way about not wanting to be pigeonholed. And like my aim in my life now, like people think you've played football and you've done all these amazing things as a footballer. I I I've done really well at football, I acknowledge that, but.

• 7:59Steven Bartlett?

  Slight understatement.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  But I but I don't, that's not enough for me. Like my next phase of my life, I don't want to be remembered when someone sees me, my success in my next phase of life is when someone sees me and says, that's Rio, do you know Rio? And they mention something that I'm doing or I've done around that time, not that's Rio as a footballer. If people were in ten, twenty years, say that's Rio, play for Man United, I ain't really kicked on. I haven't really done what I'm I'm I'm here to do, to set and set it out to do, which is to evolve and become something different and make something of myself somewhere else. And I think my my family were a lot like that, whether my mum and dad were successful or not, they were always to us, make something of yourself, be something, nothing, there's no, there's no barriers to that.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  So that's the way I've always kind of thought about things.

• 8:46Steven Bartlett?

  What if it, what if I said to you now, how would you feel if I said you couldn't ever do anything else and that, like the football thing was it? And now I just.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  I'd just laugh, I would laugh. It would make me laugh because I I I don't see no, I don't see barriers.

• 9:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  And I'm fortunate as well, by the way, I understand that, that I've got to a position where there are a lot of boundaries that have been kind of put down.

• 9:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  For me to skip over because of my career as a footballer.

• 9:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  And you you're getting that now as someone who's been really successful in your field. So you see that colour and age, et cetera, get put to the side because always we acknowledge what you've done.

• 9:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  And so we do sometimes have a easy, there's not as big a barrier to entry for certain things for us, but then you've still got to go in and produce, you've still got to go and prove yourself. And so even things like I've I've gone on the board now for a company, the Gym Group as a as a ned.

• 9:37Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is, is out of my comfort zone because I like fitness, but I don't understand the business behind that and what goes into having a actual, having a hundred and twenty five, a hundred and eighty sites and managing that. And there's a property arm and there's the commercial arm and there's a marketing arm and and that all coming together under one umbrella and having to manage all that and to be a part of those conversations. Like that stuff is what exci- I I'm in super interested in that type of stuff, in the workings behind the mechanics of all these type of businesses, diff- in different industries. So that's what I like.

• 10:10Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know that you're depth?

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I always find something what I can cling on to that I just try and find something within a conversation that would allow me to to to to gain confidence through talking in that conversation. Do you know what I mean? Whether it's I might not understand everything. And when the conversation is finished and the laptop's closed, I'll I'll be somewhere looking and finding out I didn't understand that. I'll call that person back or I'll call someone on that on that call just to clear up a few things I haven't quite grasped. But there'll be something within that conversation where I feel that I can add some sort of value.

• 10:46Steven Bartlett?

  I think all of that is a is a very, again, very synonymous as to why you're like even sat here today, because a lot of people in that situation would A, just fucking avoid it from the jump. And then B, if they encounter something they don't understand on the call, they'll probably bounce then. Or they definitely wouldn't inquire, because by inquiring, you're actually making yourself vulnerable. Yeah, a lot of people don't want to avoid vulnerability, right? And being exposed. And it's so funny that the people that, from what I'm hearing from you, like the people that achieve the most success are the ones that are at some point willing to look fucking stupid.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got to. Like, no one gets to where they're going to get on the cleanest without a bump on the road. Yeah, you don't get, you have to have bumps in the road to be able to get there to experience them vulnerable moments. So that when you are there, you know what it's like. And then you can drag people up with you. Yeah, yeah. And you become stronger with more people. That's how I always think. There's a lot of people want to get to the top and stay on the top of the mountain on their own and don't want to bring no one up. I don't agree with that. I'm always like, I want to share and help. And because that is the foundations of me being stronger for a longer period of time and can sustain success. But it is, it is, I don't know, it's, I know, an important thing for me as well, which I'm, again, I'm never scared to do is to ask questions. Like, it's the same thing with football. You don't understand something, what manager's telling you or

• 12:00Speaker 01

  coach is telling you. Don't go away and and.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Have a bit of a blurred idea of what it is because then you're going to be judged on that not understanding and not executing.

• 12:12Steven Bartlett?

  It's going to repeat.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Exactly. So you want good habits, but you've got to understand what it is before you can create the habit.

• 12:18Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  So that's why I try and always ask questions if I'm if I'm wrong, if I feel I'm not sure or certain, I'll definitely ask questions.

• 12:24Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't that crazy? You've you've you've achieved all the success. You're a football legend and yet you're still voluntarily throwing yourself into really uncomfortable situations, which you don't need to be in.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:33Steven Bartlett?

  In terms of finance, anyway, like you don't need to be or in terms of like a status, you don't need to be there. And it's funny because there's loads of people that aren't haven't achieved that, that are that will never throw themselves into uncertainty. But it's it's but again, this is probably why.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  They're the ones that stay where they are.

• 12:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly. This is probably why you sat here.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, they don't grow. They don't.

• 12:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  And like, and all those people who will stay there, some of them are like, oh, I just want to stay here. But a lot of them, they're scared to open up because of that vulnerability and them feeling silly if they're told, oh, you got it wrong. But it's not.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I I I'm not like that. Everyone's on this earth for different reasons and some people happy just to be like, stay in a situation they're in and be very happy just going along that that road and no spikes or drops. I I'd rather have a drop at some point, but to get I know that spike is going to come somewhere through being able to do the things we're talking about.

• 13:27Steven Bartlett?

  In your in your group chat with your friends from your estate, I had there's a group chat.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 13:33Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  You've been doing the research.

• 13:34Steven Bartlett?

  I did research. I didn't need to research your career because I was there watching, but just, you know, it was I was intrigued by when you said you've got this group chat with your your friends from back home and stuff. And one of the topics of conversation is something that I talk about a lot on this podcast, which is there's a growing culture of like softness, dare I say it, and like avoiding discomfort. And also, there's this crazy thing on Instagram at the moment, which is like demonizing hard work. As if it's like because of the mental health revolution we've had and everyone's, which is a great thing and everyone's aware of the impact, you know, of this thing called mental health. There's now this other thing which is like, well, you can overwork and you can burn yourself out and hard work. If I advise it as an entrepreneur, even though I've

• 14:17Steven Bartlett?

  never met someone or had anyone sit in this seat who didn't work hard, then I'm somewhat toxic because I'm telling people that success and hard work.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And it's like you're, you're, you're looking down on people almost like, and I don't, I don't agree with none of that. I've got to be honest. Work hard, man. That should be just an absolute normal ask of any person. And I, I always keep talking about my kids because they're a big part of my life. But that's all I talk about with my kids. When they talk to me about school, football, washing up, your chores, that's what's been one of the great things that we've had a lot of negativity about the COVID situation in this country, staying at home, et cetera, homeschooling. But one of the great things to come out of it for us as a family, these kids know their chores and they're doing them properly. And that's why I say, do your chores right, because them habits there will

• 15:07Speaker 01

  lead on to other things in your life going forward. Your football stuff, you won't take shortcuts. You're taking shortcuts over your work, shortcuts with your football, shortcuts making your bed, shortcuts with your schoolwork, homework, et cetera. It will all be the same. You need high standards everywhere.

• 15:23Steven Bartlett?

  But are you scared that because they've grown up in a different circumstance to what you had?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  I always have this conversation. Go on, that's true.

• 15:30Steven Bartlett?

  You're not going to say?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I'm trying to instill that in, in them.

• 15:34Steven Bartlett?

  How do you do that when they're living in like a really nice house and they've got?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  That is, that is the guy who comes up with the, the, the answers for that is the main man. Because it's so difficult. I was doing a podcast yesterday with Eddie Hearn. And he's like the generation my children are. So his father was well off, successful. And he was where my children are now. And he was saying like, one of the things that he was, he was scared of being that rich kid.

• 16:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And so he done everything not to go out and work and to go and have a hard, hard, hard working mentality and to be a success himself.

• 16:12Steven Bartlett?

  Our friend Umar was the same.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Umar, exactly. So Umar's, all three of them, by the way, I like that, all three of them, come on your kids. Do you know what I mean? They're exactly the same in terms of, they've gone out to, they never had to work. Their parents would spoil them. And they've all knuckled down and said, yeah, we've been given an opportunity. Now you've got to go and execute. And they've gone executed beyond belief. And I see Mahmood, who's.

• 16:38Steven Bartlett?

  Of Buu.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, of Buu, who's the father of Umar and the guys. And this is what I say to him, man, you must be so happy, man. What do you mean? Your kids, man, what they're doing, how hard they work, created these wicked businesses. But you gave them an opportunity, but what they've done with that, you can't, you can't be disappointed. He said, no, man, he said that. For me to sit here and just see them, what they're doing, what they're doing, that's where I want to be, man. And it doesn't matter how much money you make or how big a business, business. My success as a parent is that my kids get up every day. They got a work ethic and they do stuff to the best of their ability. If they can, if they do that, whatever job they're in, they do that. And I think you've, you've laid the foundations for a good, a good life for your kids.

• 17:23Steven Bartlett?

  Whether it's in, you know, you talk there about having high standards being one of the really important things for your kids. This is something that clearly, you know, was demonstrated when you got to Old Trafford. And you, you joined Manchester United with, for that record transfer. But how did, how did they create high standards at Old Trafford? Versus the other clubs you'd played at, what, you know, West Ham and Leeds, et cetera. What was it they were doing that kept those standards so high? You then also talk about going to QPR and seeing low standards. And certain type of negativity in the changing room. But what was it that they were doing or not doing? Because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life, so.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Good habits.

• 18:02Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Every day, good habits. Whether it's punctuality. Again, work ethic, attention to detail, intensity. When you're, you're training on a training pitch, respecting each other. But all those things just, they come together and it creates a culture at the club. And I've been at West Ham, I've been at Leeds. Two very good clubs, great clubs.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  But they, they didn't have that, that culture. Which meant there was ability to win, but it starts from somewhere. So Alex Ferguson already won at Aberdeen, so he knew how to create that culture. He went to Man United, didn't have that winning mentality at the time when he went there. He created that. And it all stems, I always think great leadership is definitely what gives you an opportunity to be successful and I noticed that throughout my career. And

• 18:57Speaker 01

  when you've you've set the foundations and you've created that culture, you don't as a leader have to be there every day in that sense. He was at the training ground every day. How many times do you think he came into our change room?

• 19:07Steven Bartlett?

  No idea.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  You wouldn't feel one hand.

• 19:10Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  No, never came in the change room, in the training ground, were there every day. Because he knew that the culture was set and then he had lieutenants like me, Giggsy, Gary Neville, et cetera, who were then filtering that down to any of the younger players or new signs who didn't know the culture yet. And then those players became the the culture leaders. And so it was it was crazy, man. And even for instance, if he wasn't at the training ground watching training, the training intensity might drop that little 1%, 2%, but you'd notice it because the manager's not there.

• 19:43Steven Bartlett?

  Because he wasn't in the building.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Because you didn't feel him, that aura that he could be on his phone making bets, which you normally would be, not interested in training, but his presence alone was enough. And it just may, when you look back and you think leadership is just key. And we were talking about investing earlier.

• 19:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  You know, investing in the leader.

• 20:01Steven Bartlett?

  The people, yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  The people. It's so important, I think. And I think every industry is like that. Football's where I'm from and that's what it's like there. But I see what, since I've retired, that's replicated in other industries, 100%.

• 20:13Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't it funny as well with culture? Because you're right, what you said there is basically like, something I used to think at Social Chain, which is if the culture is strong enough, new people become like the culture. If this culture is weak, the culture becomes like the new people.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  100%.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  You couldn't have put it any better. And I'll give you an example, like, and again, I didn't I didn't say it as eloquently as that when I was playing football, but.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Berbatov came to Man United.

• 20:41Steven Bartlett?

  Oh yeah, casual babs.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  He was wicked player, beautiful touch, sexy looking footballer, wicked. And before big Champions League game, I think it was Barcelona, he just weren't working hard enough for the team. And I need, I had the ball on this side of the pitch and I needed him to come over and help.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Mate, he's just walking like, and I ended up just kicking the ball off and going crazy. What are you doing? Get over. What's that? Wait, when I get over, then we'll do it. And that's again, that's not our culture. At Barcelona, they play, they wait, that's their culture, that's not our culture. You want to play Barcelona away, go Barcelona. Here, it's not the same. And if you don't buy into our culture, you won't be here long. And that's the way it was at United. If you came and you weren't in the, you didn't buy into the culture and immerse yourself in it and become part of the fabric of the place, you weren't there more than a year or two. Or you definitely wasn't an integral member of that squad. And so it was definitely, like you say, the culture is just, you have to become part of that culture that you go into, if it's strong enough.

• 21:43Steven Bartlett?

  You see this in business, it's crazy. You should do, I feel like the perspective you've got from being in that changing room and understand, because this, it's the same principles in business. It was the same at Social Chain when, when we grew the company and I realised that I had to be like.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Did you drive that?

• 21:56Steven Bartlett?

  Hundred percent. And like, it got to the point where what you've described is people would understand who we were without us having to say. And you'd have your disciples basically introducing new people to the company and going, that's not a social chain thing to do. And we'd get that all the time. You'd say, you people in the office would go, and for example, and the crazy, the other point I was going to say is when the culture's that strong, you, it's so easy to see when someone doesn't fit or they don't stand out. We had, you know, someone start on their first day at Social Chain and they're doing their initiation. And then they, at the end of the initiation, they did two middle fingers and then walked back to their desk. I said, go get him, we fired him, he's gone. First day at Social Chain. And then the second, the second instance where, and it sends a message to the team. Because they, I never knew, it was instinctive to me. I said, that's not a social chain person, get them out.

• 22:40Steven Bartlett?

  There was another instance where we had a girl join who someone had hired. And they told me that she used to like bully people at her last place and she had like a really bad attitude and stuff. And actually, one of the guys, two of the guys in our team said, oh yeah, we used to work with her and she was a bit of a bully. So, uh, I, I, I remember having the conversation and I said, you can't, like, I, in a very, very nice way, I said, she, she can't be here tomorrow. Because that's not who we are here. And my team were like, but we need her. For this client, we need her for this project. I was uncompromising. I said, no, we're not having her here. I don't care if we lose the job. You know, I can't, I used to say to my team, I can't have my name attached to a culture like where we have people in it who are like that. So she's gone today. I think we'll figure it out. If we lose the client, whatever.

• 23:20Steven Bartlett?

  And, and it wasn't until years later that you hear the team come back to you and they say that moment where you, you weren't willing to let that person we needed in the team because they weren't right for the culture. They, the team said that to me and that's exactly what I hear from you. I'm not blowing smoke at my own arse because I didn't realise.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  But you've recognised that.

• 23:35Steven Bartlett?

  It wasn't, it wasn't intentional. It was, I just wanted to enjoy my life and the company to be a really, really clear certain way. And I felt that that's what we needed to do to succeed. And in hindsight, and as you say it to me, I'm like, oh yeah. It was being unnegotiable, right?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's what Sir Alex Ferguson was great at. If he saw something that was going to be detrimental to the culture of the club. It was out. That was a non-negotiable.

• 23:58Steven Bartlett?

  Even if you needed them.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  So you look at Roy Keane.

• 24:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  The captain was the leader.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  The rules have been broken, you're gone. David Beckham, peak of his powers. Going out of a Spice Girl, bringing all sorts of eyeballs to the football club, making international play. See you later. Yap Stam, the best centre-half in the world at the time. Said something about some of the players in a book or something. Goodbye. Ruud van Nistelrooy, the best number nine in the world at the time. Goodbye. Like, if you don't fit the culture and you don't adhere to the rules that are there, good night. And we'll move on and we'll build around other people. It's crazy. It's like, and at the time you sit there and you think, Bex, you can't sell Bex, man.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Jesus, who's going to come in like, it's like, number seven sells all the shirts. Like everyone loves him. Wherever we go, Bex is like a Beatles. Like crazy. Same with Ruud van Nistelrooy. You're thinking, how are we going to score goals now, man? Who's going to score us the goals? Rooney and Ronaldo are really young, still inexperienced.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  But he had that belief and that vision just to like, it was the culture over everything.

• 25:08Steven Bartlett?

  No one's bigger than the club.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so true, man. And, and again, like you say, that reverberates around the dressing room.

• 25:15Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Like, you better stay in line. You better just like, live by the rules that are here already and stay part of that culture. The hard work, the intensity, the respect. And so that you, he, he would dig out the most experienced player. Who hasn't even done anything. And you'd sit there and go, what the, why is he shouting at me for? But he was doing that to you because he knew you could take it, but the effect that it would have on the young ones, on the other ones. Do you know what I mean? So playing the mind games, man, I love it. It's good. But you only, the mad thing is, when you're in it. Like you're saying, you're talking about social change, you probably didn't realise at the time. But when you sit back and you're outside and you look back in that bubble, you think.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Shit, man, yeah. That's why I didn't think about it, but that's why I'd done it.

• 26:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  And I'm right now, or I'm wrong, whatever it is, do you know what I mean? And that's how we think about like certain things that Fergie done. You think actually, he weren't just lucky, man. He actually, he obviously was.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Plotting and planning that type of stuff.

• 26:15Steven Bartlett?

  I am, I wonder how much of that stuff was intentional with him though, in terms of like. He, I'm sure he wasn't going in the back room and planning it. It's just like, surely it's just like who he was. And I sometimes think, you know, you get managers that'll come into clubs and they'll try and be like Fergie. But you can't, because you can't act for that long and that consistently, because from what you're saying about Fergie, it's like. It's not like four things he's doing, it's a thousand things he's doing consistently, which show his values.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 26:39Steven Bartlett?

  Right? And you can't act for twenty seven years, whatever it is, across a thousand touchpoints. So it makes me feel like, like. How do you teach that? Like, it was, it was, it feels almost as if it was just instinctive to Fergie.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was instinctive. He was, he's, that's just him. And, and don't forget his experience as well would have played a big part in that. He was at the club for like twenty six or so years, twenty seven years. So that's, there's a, a valuable amount of experience gained in that time. But. I always look at it like, when I went into the Man United changing room, I sat there and just looked around and thought, who's good at what? And let me just take elements of these people and add it to my, my game and my preparation and my recovery. And that's what I've done. Ryan Giggs was great at recovery and preparation. Done yoga and stuff like that. Took that out of his, of his, his book. Roy Keane, leadership, the way he demanded standards on a daily basis. Scullsey, best levels in training every day. Like all them things, I was just trying to, trying to be like little pe- parts of different

• 27:36Speaker 01

  people. And then that allows hopefully for you to grow into a better person, a better player, et cetera. And I think that's the same with, with other industries and business since I retired. It's like, you go in and try and be like someone else, you're going to fail. Because you can't be like the original. But if you're taking bits from elsewhere, you might be able to get beyond that, what you see as the best, because you're getting more, you're taking more good things from that person, but then from various other people to build maybe past that. And that's the way I try and work with stuff now in my life. There's no one person gonna ma- that's gonna make me the best at what I want to be. But a, a group and taking from everywhere, I've got a better chance.

• 28:16Steven Bartlett?

  People never talk about the things that Fergie was bad at. Well, Roy Keane does. But other than that, I never hear people saying, and I've got his book somewhere knocking around as well. But you never hear players talking about some of the things where you think, do you know what, I actually think he would have gone, been more successful if he didn't do that thing.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  You know, it's weird. When people die or when people retire, you only remember the good stuff, really.

• 28:38Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. Interesting.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  You only think about what they, their, their existence before becomes magnified and you, they're built up even bigger sometimes. And Fergie, I think that's with him as well. Because you just don't, you don't think, I can think of instances or, or tactics he's got wrong. That's easy to find, but, but he'd always make stuff right. It was weird. Like, um, even for instance, the anti-racism stuff.

• 29:05Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  And the situation, I only saw the documentary my brother, brother done.

• 29:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he was, I was actually yesterday.

• 29:12Steven Bartlett?

  I saw your story as well.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he, um.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  The situation happened with him and John Terry. And I decided not to wear the, the next, well, one of, during that period, once a year, all the teams are given T-shirts, show racism a red card or kick racism out, one of the campaigns. I wasn't willing to wear it because I didn't believe that they supported enough in the, during that, that time. So I said, I'm not wearing it. He went crazy, fined me. I was like, we end up winning a game, which was okay, which was lucky. But the next day I, I went into his office to just try and explain to him why I hadn't won the T-shirt. And to be fair, he, he said, you know what, I understand. And I'm sorry for the way I reacted. But like stuff like that, he might make a mistake or he'd done that wrong, but he'd always rectify it.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  It'd always come back around, you'd get you back around somehow. And because he was just like a, I don't know, he just, he knew how to deal with people. He knew how to treat people to get the best out of them for what his main goal was. How'd you teach that? I don't know, man, that's just the stuff. I think that's something that's inside, being able to deal with people, read people, treat your team. Do you know what I mean? So that they're running through brick walls for you. Because he'd come in a room and he'd say to you, you're not playing. And I'd be, you'd want to scream and you'd be like, blood will be boiling.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  But he'd leave the room and you go into the change room and you're sitting in there, gee, everyone up, come on, boys. Not sulking because he's told you Tuesday, you're playing because I need you for that game. You've missed this one, this is a big game, but you're going to play on Tuesday. Like normally you miss a game, you, you want to go home and cry about it. Do you know what I mean? But he's managed to build you back up and that's my management. And in any industry, that's, that's like a massive part of, again, the culture. But maintaining and sustaining a, a successful company or a successful football club. You need to be able to build people, pick them up, knock them down sometimes, but be able to keep them on that track with you.

• 31:13Steven Bartlett?

  The contradiction I hear with, with, within like the story you recount of Sir Alex versus the one I see in the newspapers is you hear about the, you know, kicking the football boot at Beckham and this guy who on the, who in the sidelines looks like he's out of control. But what you're describing is like super self-aware.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, calculated.

• 31:30Steven Bartlett?

  And he's actually pretending to be out of control when he needs to be.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  We, we used to talk about it all the time, especially me and Emmanuel Vidic.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  And Vida's a deep guy, loves talking about deep stuff, gets deep into stuff.

• 31:41Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, he loves it.

• 31:41Steven Bartlett?

  I thought he was just a murderer.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  No, he just loves like the behind, wow, what was he thinking about that, etcetera. We always talk about the manager. And like, you look back and it's like, everything he done was like calculated, like the way he spoke on the TV blaming the ref. So like, very rarely did he come on, he didn't come on TV and ever hammer none of the players individually. We could lose a game and the referee would be the back page the next day. But he's taken the heat off us. He's making us think about, it's not us. We're not down in the dog rooms, it's because of the referee. It's dangerous sometimes, you've got to be self accountability. But he makes, there's enough self accountability in the building, but also the focus is over there now, not on us as a team.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  So we go again, without that pressure, oh, they've lost, they're not as good anymore. But the referee was the reason. Do you know what I mean? Just like, that's just like calculated, this is what I'm doing for the goodness of my team and the betterment of my team is good, man.

• 32:41Steven Bartlett?

  But people think anger, and like you were a player that wasn't afraid to shout at someone. I heard you talking about some of the players you gave a hard time, like Anderson, etcetera. What is?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Still, in the WhatsApp group.

• 32:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, really?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:53Steven Bartlett?

  What role does anger play in leadership then? Because you see it in football, but if I were to start screaming at people in the same way that you did to, I don't know, Berber or whatever. Imagine if I just fucking kick this table and said to the team, what the fuck, the camera's not working. I would be, I'd be cancelled, everyone would walk out.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I talk about this with my missus quite a lot now. We like, some of the stuff that we are, when we're talking about memories and whatnot, and how we spoke to someone or what's happened in the changing room. Would never happen in the office, because it's like, you say, it's like, that relationship's over. It's gone too far, whereas you could have a fight at football and then you're shaking hands and having a laugh in the shower after. It's so different, it's just a different way of working, but.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  I think it's understanding people. I don't think you treat any two people the same. In that sense, like the blanket treatment, I don't think is the is the best way to treat a team. Because everyone's different. Everyone takes advice differently. Everyone takes criticism differently. So. You've got to be able to pick the right people to be able to shout at, to pick the right people you've got to get an arm around. And and that's about, as again, a manager, a captain, knowing that team, knowing that the players individually. All this coming into work and ghosting everybody is mad. I don't get it. I don't think you can create that environment for success if you're going to come in and not know nobody. And that's another one of these, Sir Alex's great traits is that he knew everything about everyone.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Like if you're, my granddad was in hospital once, met my granddad probably twice in the in the. Players lounge after a game, knew my granddad's favourite drink, brandy.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  A flower was turned up at my mum's house. Do you know what I mean? It's like. That stuff there, then people are coming to work for you every day. After stuff like that, it's little things, little details, not any time out of your diary really. His P A's probably done it all. But his name's at the bottom. It's like big, it's it's little. Little percentages like that are just a key.

• 34:52Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny because those little gestures help you know that he does care about you. Regardless of what happens on the training ground or in the match, fundamentally, he cares about you and wants you to do well. And he's, you know what I mean? You're not enemies, you are in. So I think by him setting that as the foundation. It's clear that having that as a foundation allows him to put pressure on in the right places, it seems.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're not his mate.

• 35:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, well, really.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  No, you're not. You're not his mate. I speak to him more now than I did when I played.

• 35:19Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Because there was that line. And that he felt was always needed to be there, that we can have a little laugh here and there, but in the end of the day, I'm the manager.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  You guys do your thing there and have a laugh, etc. But then there's that line you don't go past. So. But he just got it right. And I think that's down to experience as well. He would have learnt that. And a lot of the guys, so he used to say he was he was even crazier before you guys came when he was younger. So he's obviously worked, and he worked out as well, the new generation of player couldn't take. That. Anger and that.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  craziness like the old generation like probably my generation probably the last generation that he could do that with the next ones the younger ones that Andersons and Narnies the Ronaldos etc that's not the way that they they don't respond as well to that type of criticism and anger and aggressiveness

• 36:17Steven Bartlett?

  what was the angriest you ever saw him

• 36:22Speaker 01

  too many times too many times the times when he kicked the boot at Bex's head was a

• 36:26Steven Bartlett?

  and you're in there

• 36:27Speaker 01

  crazy one yeah that was crazy

• 36:29Steven Bartlett?

  what happened what was the angriest you ever saw him

• 36:35Speaker 01

  too many times too many times the times when he kicked the boot at Bex's head was a was a

• 36:40Steven Bartlett?

  and you're in there

• 36:40Speaker 01

  crazy one yeah that was crazy

• 36:42Steven Bartlett?

  what happened

• 36:44Speaker 01

  it was uh it was mad it was funny man it was actually funny I've got to be honest I can't lie but the manager was he kicked the boot in anger because he asked Bex to do something tactically that he didn't carry out and he booted and listen anybody I don't care Ronaldo's playing to now Messi wouldn't have hit the target the way he hit the target it was it was so clean and the ball went in slow mo like bang and it hit him in the head and then obviously Bex got was upset got up and I just remember the gaffer was devastated you could tell you could see when he looked at him he sat down he was just slumped almost like he that's not what he done he kicked the boot for he kicked it in anger and it accidentally hit Bex in the head so he looked devastated with it but that was one it was

• 37:30Speaker 01

  I'd had a few scrapes of him in terms of I didn't agree with things that he'd done a couple of times and I was screaming and he didn't he didn't take too well to it and he lost it and he just would go purple over the top of you and just spray you screaming in front of you like that like crazy so but he was uh well he was never personal which is that why you respected it and you kind of it kind of it kind of always was washed away because he you knew that deep down he just wants you to do well do you know what I mean it wasn't vindictive it wasn't personal just do what I'm telling you to do and you will win

• 38:07Steven Bartlett?

  I heard you say that that culture isn't there now

• 38:11Speaker 01

  it's it's all friendly now isn't it everyone's mates everyone's like for instance everyone's mates and commenting on each other's posts on social media

• 38:20Speaker 01

  So you're more attached to someone, you're more involved with someone.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Whereas before, I would only see certain players twice a year, home and away. So I've got no attachment to you. So to me, have a bit of venom or to go at you a little bit was normal. And I've got no qualms about doing that because I ain't gonna see you again, don't care. I might see you at England camp or something like that, but I don't, that's like three or four times a year, so.

• 38:47Steven Bartlett?

  We're colleagues.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Exactly. We're not really matey. Whereas now, in the tunnel, they're all shaking, cuddling, yeah, man, comment on your post the other day, he's very different. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's just different.

• 38:58Steven Bartlett?

  Is it bad?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  So, I don't know, it's just like, it's, it's different. So going into, into battle, into a game.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I've got no emotional ties or no social media ties to anybody.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  So I can, it, it, there seemed to be that bit more. I don't know if there's more passion before to now, but it seemed to be like there was. Because, and I think all of this stuff with social media makes it a bit more fluffy. And people are hugging and shaking hands and whatnot now because they've spoken or had a message or liked a post, very different.

• 39:32Steven Bartlett?

  Me and my, my friends in my Manchester United chat, when, uh, one of the observations that we have all the time is like, why is, why has everyone been so nice to each other? And you, you, I remember last week, there was a tweet went out from one of the United, um, press people. And it was just a quote of something Harry Maguire had said on the field and he'd basically screamed, I don't know, Rash or someone else. Yeah. And he said like, get fucking back in line or whatever. It's like trending on Twitter.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because you don't see it.

• 39:55Steven Bartlett?

  Because you don't see it anymore. And then, and then also, I, you know, love him, love him or whatever, but watching, uh, Ollie fist bump the managers with a smile on his face. We, we've been grown up as United fans with a, we would, Fergie would look fucking furious to even have to look at the opposing manager. And, and it just feels different now. And then we look at where we are and how we're performing in the big games and we're not winning like we used to. And we're all saying, oh, that, you know, we're, we're coming like Arsenal or something.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  But we, we, everyone always like clings on to the history and it and the past. That's, that's the problem as a football fan. I'm the same, like, you just want it to be like it was before, please. Like, but it's never going to be the same. It may be a successful or even more successful one day, but it will never be the same. So our expectation then will sometimes just have to change a little bit. But, yeah, I mean.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Again, like it was coming in anyway, because like, for instance, I remember Gerard Pique hugging and fist pumping etc in the tunnel with Fabregas. And we were mad rivals with Arsenal at that point, like pizza gate and all that stuff. And he got hammered after that PK in our changing room. What are you doing? Before a game, we're sitting there chatting or always we'd make fun of him a little bit. There's two different ways you ridicule and get someone in line, either humour or being firm. And he probably got both. But it was, it was, that was a, you could sense a change coming. It was coming. And obviously, social media, I think, has accelerated that, definitely.

• 41:22Steven Bartlett?

  Ed Woodward as well. There's a lot of controversy surrounding him at the moment, again, because for better or for worse.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Have you had him on?

• 41:27Steven Bartlett?

  No, not yet. No.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  It'd be good.

• 41:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. When, when, when we can travel a little bit more, we'll, we'll, I think he'll, he'll come on. But I, I remember hearing the story about the exit treatment that you had with him. And I wondered if you were still somewhat bitter about that. I heard, you know, one of your last games at the club, and he comes into the training room and tells you that you're, you're not going to be playing for the club anymore. You didn't get your send off.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. I think there's not, there's nothing that anyone could tell me that wouldn't make me feel that was the wrong way.

• 41:57Steven Bartlett?

  Would Fergie have done that?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:58Steven Bartlett?

  And Fergie's here?

• 41:59Speaker 01

  No. He would have told me before the end of the season. Because he'd know what it means. But the difference is that Fergie was a footballer. And he knows what it means. He knows what it is to be able to say, thank you for your support, etc. Just have that little runway to a send off. Now, listen, I understand that everybody can have it that way. But if you've got, if you know, and you've got the opportunity to give someone the best possible route out of a situation, you give it to them. And my situation, I think it was, you could see down the line from a month, two months before that, that you knew what was going to happen with me. So give me the opportunity to have the best possible send off, given the time, given the relationship that I'd built with the club. So that was my, my only discrepancy of the whole way it worked out. Because it wasn't

• 42:42Speaker 01

  like, oh, actually, a knee joke situation, knee joke decision. So, but I think, listen, Ed knows how I feel about it. But we've moved on past that. I'll speak to him on the phone about various different things. Anyway, when we meet up sometimes, that's cool.

• 42:57Steven Bartlett?

  But those small moments, that's an isolated incident.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 43:01Steven Bartlett?

  But that's, that isolated incident is attached to a wider philosophy. In the same way that Fergie had this like wider philosophy of like, you know, sending your, your granddad the flowers. And that's attached to a wider philosophy. So although that's just one instance, I think the risk that I would see. And when I hear things like that, I think, well, that same philosophy of like, not really caring, being that empathetic. It's got to be popping up in other places, right? Like.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. And that again, we've said culture about 10 times already in this conversation.

• 43:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  But that's, that's a part of a culture. Like, there has to be, like you say, compassion, empathy, respect.

• 43:41Steven Bartlett?

  As a family, right? Like, that's what the club was.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  And that was the way I used to explain Man United. I left Leeds, which was like a family, a small, I used to say, this is a smaller version. Without obviously the success, but a smaller version in terms of the people here, been here for 30 years, 40 years, 20 years. My dad used to work here, my mum used to work here. That's a family club. Man United was that when I was there.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  My fear is that it becomes something else.

• 44:06Steven Bartlett?

  Some of the waiting staff, I had a box at Man United. And it's funny, this is a staggering thing for me, because you don't think of the, you know, the waiting staff in the box. Are gonna notice a cultural shift at the club.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 44:19Steven Bartlett?

  Right? But they would tell me, they, they said to me, you know, when Fergie and David Gill were here, it was different. And how did it touch the waiting staff that served me?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Because they know all their names.

• 44:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, that's what they said to me.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  They know all their names. They, it's like.

• 44:32Steven Bartlett?

  They had a relationship. David Gill had a relationship with the, the person giving me a steak. And it, and I just thought that was staggering that this, you know, I think how strong the culture must be and how important it must be for the waiter. Giving me, you know, some chips to be like, it's different now.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  The dinner lady at the, the training ground, I actually spoke to her on the way here, funny enough, it's just from your voice note, but the dinner lady, Carol. She could have banter with the manager or David Gill.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Like first name terms. Banter that had been spread over a number of years so they could go back and have a proper back and forth. He knew the name of the groundsman, but it was like. And and if if I if I'm at Man United now, that is part where I'm going. That that has to be recreated, bring that back. Cause that's a strength, like I said before about strengthening numbers, that's the foundation of the football club. People come in that place and think, oh, my God, they're all Man United here, they're all feel part of it. That that creates.

• 45:29Steven Bartlett?

  Does that start with Fergie and David at the top?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it has to, and that's why I look back on things like that and like. You you speak to any of the people that work there, that that was a big part of it. Cause everyone thinks it's the it's the it's the first eleven, the the team, the squad, the first team that play, that's Man United, it's not. It's the fans and it's all the people that work behind the scenes to enable that first eleven, that team, that squad to go out there and perform. If them people are around that aren't working, that's what the manager used to say, all these people, the kit man, the physio, nutritionist, the dinner lady, etc. These lot help you, enable you to be successful, so don't forget that.

• 46:08Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 46:10Steven Bartlett?

  And all those people have an expectation of the performance and like the they all become winners, like as a United fan growing up, I was like, we win.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 46:19Steven Bartlett?

  And and you know, as a fan, I was like, yeah, no, we we come and we win.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:22Steven Bartlett?

  And then at some point when Fergie left, I'm like, I'm not so sure really what happens sometimes.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:27Steven Bartlett?

  And you know that crazy thing Fergie had in the last couple of minutes of every game where he thought we're gonna fucking win this, there's only two minutes left, but somehow.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  But you know, like, all the things I just mentioned there about the club as well, that does, that is a byproduct of success as well. It that becomes easier.

• 46:40Steven Bartlett?

  It's like a self fulfilling cycle, right?

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Exactly, when you're winning, it's like everything, when you're successful and you're winning, everything's kind of runs smoothly, doesn't it?

• 46:47Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And then obviously when things start to go a little bit wrong, you see so many more bumps in a row, so many more splinter groups come out and start pointing the finger, etc. So I just think that it's it's keeping it.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Getting that culture right and getting the people who feel part of the club and then you win with that as well. There's no better kind of.

• 47:09Steven Bartlett?

  And you've got to defend it, right? You've got to defend the culture again because the culture is the thing that made you win. And so you might get some, you know, big people getting too big for their boots or whatever or distracted. And then Fergie's just got this great reputation of defending that culture as the most important thing. And I, you, people say, why did he win? How did he win for 20 odd years? No one else has managed to do that in the modern era. And it's just that.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  But it's, I always put it down to as well, things like dedication, desire. He was always the first in the training ground. I used to try and beat him to get in the training ground sometimes. Take my kids to school and get there. Like, we used to start at like half nine, used to be in at half nine. I used to get in some at eight o'clock and his car's there already. Last to leave most of the time. That's again, that goes back to the point of saying about showing your kids rather than telling them, be early, be, just be there. Then they know. He's always there. Can't be late. Why are you late? The manager's there. He's been 26 years and he's early every day and you're not. He's obviously prepping.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Like you don't do your prep work in the gym, why? I remember I came for the meeting, called a meeting because he thought that the young players weren't doing the extras. Why are you going home before an inexperienced player there?

• 48:27Steven Bartlett?

  That was said to them?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you're the start of the ladder.

• 48:30Steven Bartlett?

  What's be called an actual meeting?

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that he just said to the lads, listen, go like after training or before training, all come in the change room. And everyone sat down and he was like, listen, I've got to say it because I'm seeing it every day and it ain't good for the club. Some of you young boys, I'm seeing you and some even the players that are a little bit older than that. But how can you be going home before him? He's doing extras, working outside or he goes in the gym or before training, I see so and so doing that and you're just messing about in the canteen or something like that. It's valuable time. Don't miss it. Short career, things like that. But that's again, the manager allowing people to manage the change room. And that's like, it was there. You had people that managed the change room and you had the manager that oversaw it all.

• 49:14Steven Bartlett?

  What was the difference between some players that arrive at Manchester United and ultimately end up reaching their potential and then some that don't? And there's been a lot of, you know, well written about players that never reach their potential. Was there a commonality that you saw that made it? Because I'm like Gary Neville, I'm like, he wasn't the most, I like the guy, he's actually managed me once in this charity game, like the guy, but he didn't strike me as the most naturally talented player.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Hard work.

• 49:40Steven Bartlett?

  But he felt, yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  So hard work, dedication, attention to detail, application on a daily basis. Like, this is the thing, a lot of people think, I've worked hard for two weeks and I haven't got any rewards out of it. The manager's still not playing me, I'll give up. No, that's got to be, we were talking before, a lifestyle. Hard work every day is a lifestyle. That should be like the standard. That's the standard that is here and you've got to be at that every day. There's none of this taking your foot off the pedal because it's difficult. Carlos Caro said to me, you can't just switch it on and off. Like that mentality, that intensity, the dedication, the hard work on a daily, but you can't just go, I'll work hard on Monday to Wednesday, Thursday, Friday I'll just chill and then Saturday, switch it on

• 50:23Speaker 01

  again. Habits, lifestyle, all the time like that. So when it comes to match time, it's not a big shift because your body can't do with that, your mind can't do with that. If it's normalised, this is normal on a Saturday, three o'clock, 60,000 people screaming, 100 million people around the world. That's not pressure, I do this every day.

• 50:41Steven Bartlett?

  One of the like alienating things when people might hear you talk and they think, oh well, almost intimidating. It's like, well, Rio's mentality is just so fucking like disciplined and you know, he's got it now.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  No, I did, listen, I weren't perfect.

• 50:53Steven Bartlett?

  This is what I was going to ask, because like, tell me about, tell me how you weren't perfect.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I weren't perfect. It took me a long time to start understanding like your body, understanding your mindset and my state of mind had to be at tip top condition, both mentally and physically on a game day. And at West Ham, I didn't have it. Leeds, I didn't have it. Cause I was inconsistent. I was really, I trained hard. But then I'd be going out every, every other night. I'd go out four or five times a week, parties, pissed. Like West Ham, I don't remember a lot of results or certain things when people say, well, what about that game when you? I actually can't remember. I was that, I used to be going out and get pissed so often.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  And then I got to Man United and I just was surrounded by people that had won and I was desperate to win. So what do you do to win? I'm gonna copy of him, him, him, like we spoke about before. And then you become part of that. And then you realise that none of these lot are going out all the time. So if I'm gonna go out and continue that lifestyle I had before. My levels are obviously always gonna be a bit below these guys, cause you can't sustain that. Hmm. You're always working at from a less, from a lower standpoint. So I, I changed that and listen, I still made mistakes, but my intentions. And my desire was to always be as good as I could be. I wanted to be better than Vida, Vidic. Hmm.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  John Terry, Sol Campbell. I need to be the best. When people talk about the best centre back, I need to be the first name on their lips. So what, what can I do? I was that obsessed with it. Hmm. Do you know what I mean? And uh. Why? The lads wouldn't have probably, the lads wouldn't have probably known how obsessed I was with it, cause I would never show that really. But inside.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  The thought that someone thought that someone else is a better centre back than me used to like, it would eat away at me. Why? Cause I just, pride, ego. We all got egos. You wanna be the best. And I was never ashamed myself to be, to feel like that. I'll say that, that, that. I didn't say it at the time. Cause it etiquette, it's not the thing to do. In American sports, they do it. They, they talk like that, which I wish there was more. Cause naturally, I'm that type of person. I would say it. I think I'm the best on it. That's why I don't care. That I would say now, I thought I was the best centre back. But I was always, I just wanted to be the best. Whether I was or not, it's for other people to decide. But I was, that was my, always my intention.

• 53:16Steven Bartlett?

  You and Vidic partnership.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:18Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of my friends at the moment, I swear, I've been, I'm a big fan of Harry Maguire and what he does. Mainly because I, from what I hear, he's one of the only leaders in the back line.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:27Steven Bartlett?

  Like, you know, always shouting. What was it that made you and Vidic so successful as a partnership? Because my, my friends, they'd do anything to have you guys back.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:36Steven Bartlett?

  What was it about you two? Because you're, you're known as, in my opinion, the best centre-back partnership we've ever had.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  That's why I'm here, because I knew you'd say that. I appreciate that, man.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  No, um, I don't know, man, it is, it.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  He had attributes that just complemented mine and vice versa.

• 53:56Steven Bartlett?

  What, what?

• 53:57Speaker 01

  He was, he, he wanted to go and attack every ball.

• 54:00Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  When the ball got kicked in the skies, he just saw one thing and that was the ball.

• 54:05Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  And he was better at that than me.

• 54:08Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  But I read stuff and would clean up around all of that and was more of, I don't know, I read the game probably a little bit different to him and. But at the same time, I was capable of going up and winning the ball. And then he'd do that with me. Whether he was as good at me at cleaning up or not, it's for other people to decide. But like, I, I, I don't know, it was just, we just complemented each other. And, and what it was, there was a pride about our defending, us two. So you see a lot of people, it's like me.

• 54:36Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  I'm the best. I want to be the best, which is true. But the overriding factor of me wanting to be the best is that we don't concede and we're a partnership. I'm going to be, I've got your back. And that's what we used to say before a game. Vidic, you go up, I'm behind you, don't worry. When I go up, you're behind me, yeah? That's what it was all the time. You challenge, I'm behind you, don't worry. Just go for the ball, go for the man, take the man and the ball. I'm here if it goes wrong. And it's that having that sense of security for each other.

• 55:02Steven Bartlett?

  There was a chant, Vidic's chant about him being a bit of a murderer.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, crazy.

• 55:07Steven Bartlett?

  How did he, how did he feel about that? And like?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's quite an unassuming guy. He's really like, he's not really taken or, or by anything.

• 55:13Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Did they say that about me? Oh, cool. It's good. Not bad.

• 55:17Steven Bartlett?

  Not bad.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  And then carries on with life. Like, he's really just chilled, man. He's so different to what he's like on the pitch. Just a chilled guy. He's intense guy, to be fair. Intense.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  And some players may have found him at times quite moody at times and just really like in with what he's doing because he's so intense. And he would really like to think about a lot of stuff and probably overthink certain situations, but.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  I've gotten really well with him. He's one of my my closest guys at at Man United when I was there.

• 55:48Steven Bartlett?

  You still talk to him now?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I talk to him now on the text and stuff. He's living in Milan at the moment.

• 55:51Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:53Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that um has happened since your playing days is there's been a huge rise in the conversation around mental health.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:59Steven Bartlett?

  Wasn't a conversation back then, really. Um even even for me, growing up, that didn't know what it meant. I'll be completely honest. I thought mental health was um someone goes crazy.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Psychiatrist.

• 56:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, just a straitjacket or something. That's why we always thought it was. That's all the depiction of someone that's lost their mind and. Um we've come to learn about it in a much different way now. We view it as a sort of intrinsic part of health, but everyone has mental health. And it it can sit on some kind of spectrum, right? Based on what happens. Um. I I was wondering back then, like the players in that dressing room, they had mental health then. They had mental health issues and stuff then, but I'm guessing it was never addressed. It was never talked about or?

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Well, I I've done a documentary on BBC about like grief and bereavement and stuff. And obviously, mental health is a huge part of that. And I got to understand mental health through that journey of making a documentary. And understanding that when I played, again, mental health was not a thing at all. And it was never considered. There was no compassion. And if you acknowledged your mental health and started to talk about it as I have problems or an issue, he was then seen as a weak link. Whether it was spoke about or not, it was there. That would be the case. That would be how you see that whole situation. And so no one then talks about it through fear of being called the weak link.

• 57:21Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Um. And I look back now and think, yeah, definitely, if if we would have been more open, if we had today's thought process about mental health.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Would have got more out of certain players, definitely.

• 57:36Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Louis Saha, for instance, what a player.

• 57:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Unbelievable footballer. Had injuries, but along with the injuries, that brought a mental health problem for him. And like a bit depressed and down and whatnot because he felt he was letting everyone down. That's what you feel when you're injured. You feel you're letting your teammates down. And it's hard to deal with sometimes, especially if you just keep getting little injuries and you come back, you go again, you come back and people start, oh, he's always injured. Mentally, he's not strong, is he? Don't fancy it. And as a player, you know them conversations are going on. So you start thinking about that. And when people see you, you think he's, he doubts me anyway. And so that mental warfare that goes on, it could be sorted out through conversation.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Acknowledging certain things, but you're taught in a macho dressing room that talking is seen as a weakness back then. I think there's big changes now. Like you say, the narrative now is very different. So you'd like to think it's changing and clubs are more aware of that.

• 58:37Steven Bartlett?

  I am, I remember watching that documentary. Remember, I think I remember where I was when I watched it because it really, really hit me. And like, I don't watch a lot of TV, but also I'm, it's quite hard to make something impact me. But because you were so vulnerable. As someone that I grew up watching as a kid and you were able to be emotional, it, it, yeah, really it hits, it hits you in a completely different way. Tell me about your thought process, why you wanted to do that? Because I'm betting it wasn't easy, right?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  No, it was, it was, it was crazy. It was hard, man. But it was, it was mainly for my kids, if I'm honest. And for everyone else. Because I wanted my, obviously my kids lost, they lost their mum. So. Again, it's like, most of back to that same point. You can't just keep telling them. Sometimes it'd be nice to have something you can just show them. And that speaks for itself and is visual as well. And so they get a clear idea of where we're all at, where we was at and how we've got to this point of hopefully. A little bit of healing. And on that journey, we realised, actually, we're going to help a lot of people here. So many more than just selfishly our own family. So it became like a rule.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Real um positive journey for us in that sense of of working out what it means to talk, to communicate your feelings, how much benefit that is to you as an individual, but also other people. Um it working on relationships and how it can change a relationship when you are talking. And and so again, it was a difficult journey because you've got to open up, like you say, show that vulnerable side to you. And and again, that's probably again, that's how we started the conversation. I wasn't scared to do that. It was a difficult situation, but I weren't scared of doing that because I knew at the end of the day, my kids are going to benefit from this. And whatever that however this journey goes, I'm willing to to be a part of it for that for that one reason.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  And then when it was when it when it was um finished and we were when I bafta in the end with it and the great part of it is that you walk down the street or you go down the aisle in St. Street or where Tesco's or wherever it is and

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  an old age lady or a man come up to you, you know what, the tear in the eye or something like that and throat's all croaky and I watch your program. I I've never spoken before, really. You you help me. That stuff, that's the the reward that you get from something like that, that I didn't anticipate.

• 1:01:12Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:14Steven Bartlett?

  And you, one of the things you you said when I was, you know, hearing you talk about mental health and really the, I guess, the crux of the documentary is that the healing comes from opening up and communicating.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:01:25Steven Bartlett?

  Um. And in fact, you might never get over what happened and you don't necessarily need to, but it's like when you take it out from the the closet in the back, you know, back part of your mind, because you were talking about compartmentalizing it a lot. And that was how you were you were handling it at first. And, you know, I think a lot of the data shows that when you try and compartmentalize grief or trauma. But but it comes at you in other ways, right?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  And it jumps out, yeah. And you get bad habits, you you fall into holes that you never knew were ever possible to go down. And then to get back out of them is it becomes it like almost an impossible journey. So it was it was.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And that's how I probably would have been with lots of stuff in my life before you just compartmentalise it, you put it over there, you don't think about it, but you've never dealt with it. You've never got that situation out and unpacked it and then used it to bring some sort of positivity to your life.

• 1:02:19Steven Bartlett?

  People don't want to open it though.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  No, because it's scary.

• 1:02:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Vulnerable.

• 1:02:22Steven Bartlett?

  And today, I'd rather just get through today than unpack that stuff.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Steven Bartlett?

  And.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Have to go through that stuff. I have to go through them feelings, them emotions. Have to have that hurt a little bit again. But I've, we've said it to the kids all the time, like, like, sometimes crying is such a relief sometimes. And the weight off it that goes off your shoulder sometimes, when you you do release that emotion is like, it's crazy. You can't really put it into words what it feels like at times. But you've had that, them moments where you felt really down or you're missing someone. And then you have a little bit of emotional time on your own, or with friends, or with family, or whatever it is. And then you, there's a smile immediately comes sometimes out of the back of it. Because you feel actually, I actually feel better now. And you got, you move on, you carry on with your day. But it is, it's

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  a, it's a, that type of situation that we've kind of been through, it's never gone. But you learn how to deal with things that bit better all the time.

• 1:03:22Steven Bartlett?

  What are some of the, the sort of techniques you use to try it when you do feel down or you feel like, you know, there's something bugging, playing on your mind and stuff, and you might be getting a bit anxious about something. Is there anything that you've learned from your experiences that helps you in those moments? Like, outside of talking, what's strategies? Or is there, one of the things that I was, I've started doing, this is, it might sound really strange, is when I, so what will happen with me is something will be playing on my mind. And I try and tell myself, oh, you can deal with that, you're fine, whatever. And then three hours later in the shower, and you're still thinking about it. And I know that it's going to harm me if I don't like, address it. So I will literally, this sounds like fucking bunkers, first time I've ever said this, I'll literally say it out loud. And I have this like weird conversation with myself, where I say, Steve, like, you're feeling, I'll go literally, you're feeling like this because of this and this. And yeah,

• 1:04:07Steven Bartlett?

  it's making you feel a bit like, you know, it's making you feel a bit bad at the moment or whatever. But, but then I try and reason with myself as if I'm talking to someone else. And it has really helped me. It's, but it makes me feel like a nutter.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I understand hundred percent what you're saying. But you know.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  I'm fortunate, I've got a, an unbelievable wife who I can talk to. Like, communication is a massive part and where I've improved in my life, hundred percent. So I, that conversation you're having there, I'll have with my wife. Hmm. And I'm lucky. How's she helped you with that? Oh massively. I don't probably tell her enough, but like what, what she's brought to my life in terms of being able to open up, to communicate, not only with her, but with my kids now.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  I speak to my kids in a different way now in terms of, because I know communicating and letting them show their feelings. Trying to just always, if there's a situation that's, for instance, Mother's Day just come. Obviously in my house it's quite, my mum passed away and the babies, their mum passed away as well, so. Mother's Day is, and then Kate's a new mum. Hmm. So there's so many dynamics in the house on that one day, the emotional kind of energy in the house on that day is like through the roof. Hmm. And so to manage that and to make it a, a day where everybody's enjoying it and happy and celebrating Mother's Day is, that's a task in itself.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  But talking to the kids, we had a conversation on Mother's Day at the table, we was eating food and stuff and it was like, um.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  My little boy was like, oh, I said to him like, you don't post anything on, on Mother's Day, do you? And he's not an emotional poster anyway, he just posts about what he likes, like football and stuff and, and whatever, so. He's like, yeah, I was actually thinking of doing it this, this, um, this Mother's Day, but like, obviously, cause like, I wasn't sure what to, what to do, like with Kate and mum, so I didn't know what to do. And it was like, Kate almost like, I think she started crying really, cause like, I don't want you to feel like that. Post what you feel, don't worry about no one else. Hmm. Just post what you feel, cause no one can tell you what you feel. Hmm. And you're not gonna disappoint anybody. Do what you feel. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, those conversations I would never have had with my kids before. Cause I just wasn't, I wasn't in that, in that, in that zone. Hmm.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  I was always very like, again, compartmentalized, very closed, closed emotionally. Zero coming out really, like, but that was conditioned because my dad was like that. Oh, right. So, and we talk about that in the doctor as well, like my dad was very, very, he wasn't open with his feelings really and. Old school. Very old school West Indian man, so. That follows through generations. So, so yeah, the talking is and communicating with the kids and Kate. And she's the one who's really brought that. Since I've met her in that sense, and I I'd never be able to thank her enough for that, just that one element. Let alone the other stuff that she's brought to the table.

• 1:07:07Steven Bartlett?

  You just, you don't, you don't talk to her and you think you might not talk to her enough, though.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  I don't tell her enough, maybe. How, how, um, I tell everyone else, like all my mates know, like, she's been unbelievable for us. She's like.

• 1:07:19Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, you didn't tell her.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  But I probably don't tell her enough sometimes. And we sometimes have conversations and she, I'll go, yeah, but I told her so late, you was like, you done it, and she, oh. You told them before me, right? Which is crazy, really, isn't it? You, you should really just tell that person.

• 1:07:35Steven Bartlett?

  Why don't you?

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's the old me still about.

• 1:07:38Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah.

• 1:07:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Probably the old me still about. I don't know. And sometimes a bit like shy, not shy, I'd be embarrassed, maybe. I don't know.

• 1:07:45Steven Bartlett?

  To say that, yeah.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  But it's, yeah, I should. I will. I will.

• 1:07:52Steven Bartlett?

  I'll send you the clip. You can just let the clip in. She'll see this on here. She'll go, why didn't you just tell me?

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's true.

• 1:07:59Steven Bartlett?

  That's, that's incredible. Um, as a guy that's single, me, and has struggled for various reasons.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Have I?

• 1:08:05Steven Bartlett?

  Sorry, yeah, no, not you. So, yeah, so, as a guy that's single and has struggled over the years to, to get into a relationship because I've been busy. Well, this is what the bullshit I tell myself.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  What is commitment issues, is it?

• 1:08:15Steven Bartlett?

  Well, well, my parents, so there's, there's a slight issue from my childhood where like my mum and dad used to scream at each other all the time. So I just learned that relationships were like prison. Cause my dad would sit there passively, my mum screaming in his face. And I would, I just learned that as a man, when you get in a relationship, you're in prison and your freedom's gone. And I'm so, I'm someone that like really doesn't wanna give up my freedom. And whenever I get close to that commitment, I feel the fear. Which comes, clearly comes from my childhood. But what, what are the things that you, you know, as a guy that is su- super successful over the last, you know, couple of decades and now is running businesses and chasing a bunch of other ambitions that you have, what are some of the things you've learned about how to have a successful relationship as a busy guy? One of them is communication, I guess, but.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, communication, but I think time management is ba- is massive as well.

• 1:09:00Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  And, yeah, yeah, time management, like.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  And Kate's helped with that as well, like managing your diary, like I'm busy, I've got a lot of stuff on and out that I enjoy and I wanted and passionate about, which is key. But I'm as passionate, if not more about my family as well. So managing that diary to make sure you've got quality time and you've got enough time with your family, but also, you know, you're going to work is so key. But also the time when you're there, be there.

• 1:09:24Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Do you mean, like, I speak to a lot of guys who are managers, a lot of my friends are managers now. And that's why I'll never go into management, I don't think. Because as a football manager, you have to be, you have to live it, breathe it every minute. Like, that's the same in business, but there's, I don't know, with football, I just find there's a different, it's quite different. We're talking about the way that people talk to each other at football, it's different to an office. There's, there's elements that are probably different as manager, I feel. But as a football manager, you're at home, you're having Sunday dinner with your family, but you're not there.

• 1:09:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  You're thinking about logistics, you're thinking about the nutritious, does he sort the things out of the players? That player, is he going to be fit this week or not? I need him fit.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  That player just got injured at the weekend, I can't believe it, thinking about how am I going to replace him? Form what formation am I going to play? The other team have got a formation, they played different at the weekend, I need to watch that video, I need to watch that for that ninety minutes. They played two games last week different, I go and watch them games as well. That's, that's, that's without thinking about like doing your team talk and doing your tactics on a training pitch and setting up your training sessions for the week. Without thinking about any, and, and so when you're at home, you're not home, you're not there really, you're, you're, you're physically there, but mentally you're not there. You, you might as well not be there. So I never, I never wanted to get in that position, especially given what we've been through. So, um, I definitely, I just kind of wrote that off as being something I'll do because of that reason.

• 1:10:49Steven Bartlett?

  And we were talking, again, before we start recording about your real deep, uh, desire to make sure that football isn't a thing that you're, you become known for. Right? And I, uh, I I find that that fascinating, but like, um, it's a it's a big mountain to climb, right? Like, to get known for some of the things you're doing now, you're heavily involved in business, you're investing, you've got five. What are these, what, what, we talked about focus as well at the start of your journey, deciding that it wasn't going to be gymnastics, it wasn't going to be ba-, you know, ballet, it was going to be football.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Steven Bartlett?

  What is it now?

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  So that's what I mean, that's that's that situation, that scenario is almost replicating itself now. I'm in that space right now. So when my dad said to me, Rio, what do you want to do? Make a choice.

• 1:11:31Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  I've retired and the last four or five years, I've been working out what I'm going to do. I'm trying this, I'm trying that, I'm not scared to try this, I'm not scared to try that. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but then I know I'm not, I'm not, that's not for me. And I've kind of getting to a place now where I'm starting to drill down and focus on a couple of different spheres.

• 1:11:50Steven Bartlett?

  What are those spheres?

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  To go down. So the, the, the five YouTube channel.

• 1:11:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yep.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  And creating that football hub, that football place to be. Um, my foundation, um, which goes into communities and gets kids that from disadvantaged backgrounds, gives them the opportunity to get an education and then the opportunity to get into work. Um, through the relationships with a few of the commercial companies that I've built relationships with over the years. Um, what else? The, the management company, football management company, so we've got managers and players, past and present, that we manage, probably about eighty five, ninety five players. Um, which is, that's one of my passions and I get to mentor players within that, which is the, the best bit for me, where so for instance, England player Michael Keane, Ben

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Godfrey, Mason Holgate, the Murphy Twins, uh, even Chris Wilder I speak to as well, but I get to mentor these players.

• 1:12:47Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Who I can have some sort of effect, given the experience that I've gained over the years. So to have played that little role in a lot of these guys, and I'll do that with the Premier League players and nationals to players that are from lower leagues or just starting on the journey, who haven't made it yet. Um, who are seventeen, eighteen years old. So there I get great kicks out of stuff like that as well.

• 1:13:07Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know which path you're going to take?

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  I don't know. I'd love to be able to do all.

• 1:13:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  But I know it's not possible to be super successful. Spreading yourself in like that. So I will eventually go, this is me.

• 1:13:22Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny because when I, when I speak to you and I've spoken to you.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  And obviously all my punditry stuff.

• 1:13:26Steven Bartlett?

  Of course, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Which is interesting.

• 1:13:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. I, I, when I speak to you, when I spoke to you last time and we met a couple of, I don't know, a year or two ago.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  We were standing in the sea for about thirty five, about an hour, I think, I think talking, remember, do you remember that in Dubai?

• 1:13:36Steven Bartlett?

  Standing, oh, that, oh, yeah, yeah. I was talking about the other time where like I came, I came to like where roughly where you live. You came to Social Chain one time.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:44Steven Bartlett?

  I came to where you lived and then I forgot the Dubai time. Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Steven Bartlett?

  But every single time when, when I speak, you look at me in a certain way and I can see it. You're like listening very, and then you start asking questions around certain things. And you're very, very, very, very curious. And I've noticed this. I feel it. When I start talking, you go, you look at me like this. Umar does the same thing.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Because you're, you're, you're another, you do a lot of stuff. You're, you're doing this. You've got a book coming out. You're investing, you know, and you've sold it. You've been a part of a company that was valued at two hundred plus million pounds. Like you're doing so much stuff. There's a theatre show you're doing or whatever you, you mentioned before. So there's so much stuff that you're doing. You're spinning plates.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  I find that exciting. How the fuck are you doing that? I want to know. I don't want to know that. Sometimes it's not about what you're doing for me. It's how are you doing it? Do you mean? Like even the podcast, I'm.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  I'm just like all little things like that. I love it. So I don't know. I'm, I'll just, I've got a curious mind in that sense, definitely. When I was younger, I was curious to find out what nightclubs look like inside. I mean, that's all I wanted to do was find out. I want to get in nightclubs. That's all I wanted to understand.

• 1:14:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  So I mean, you're a young player, just coming up in the Premier League, get invited to everything. I was curious. I mean, but that's for the wrong reasons.

• 1:15:04Steven Bartlett?

  You've, you've not, you've lived this crazy life, right? You've lived a life that me as a young kid, growing up in Devon and Plymouth, I was, you know, watching my little tiny little one foot TV with my brothers, my three brothers sat there. You know, that, that was the life that I wanted to, to lead and you've gone through that journey. You've, you've now come out the other end and you're doing all this other crazy stuff. As you look back on the span of your career, you must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't. What are the things that matter?

• 1:15:32Steven Bartlett?

  You must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't. What are the things that matter? Cause I'm a little bit earlier on, so I'm still figuring out some of these things. I'm like, oh, look, money. This is interesting. You know, like.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Health, man.

• 1:15:48Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Health is the. It's the biggest, it's the biggest thing. Cause when you're healthy, you're so happy. We spoke about it before, like. Confidence it breeds, how happy you are and it energizes you. But if you're not healthy, it can be devastating. So health is a massive thing, which I probably, I didn't consider for many years, probably till we hit that. Bad patch in our lives. Um, we're talking for granted.

• 1:16:18Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, the pandemic now has been another way.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  And the pandemic is an absolute, like, if you wasn't awake then, you are woken now to health and.

• 1:16:25Steven Bartlett?

  What does that mean for you in terms of staying healthy now?

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Well, we spoke about it before in terms of, of, of. Like, what does health mean to, it, it's passing it on to the next generation of, of kids, my own kids first and foremost, but then like to, to, to kids to understand that. Going to the gym and just like, uh, in and out, little fads here and there, health kicks here and there, isn't.

• 1:16:50Steven Bartlett?

  At me.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:52Steven Bartlett?

  You're talking about me.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  It's not a lifestyle.

• 1:16:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Like, and we've got friends that we both know who, who are like that as well. And you've been like that before. It's, it's just, it's not, yeah, it's not the way. It's not healthy for starters, but up here, it just leaves you, you're always chasing something. Whereas when you get consistency with your lifestyle and health, your healthy lifestyle. There's like, almost like a, an exile, like, oh gee, I get it now. And it becomes, it's not, it's not a drain on your life. It becomes something that adds value to your life in the end. And I, I think that's something to try and transfer that over to this next generation of, of kids. Is, I think, a key way, and this pandemic is something that I think can accelerate that, and it will accelerate that because, like I said, I'm, I'm on the board at the, the gym group now and.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Trying to get people to understand and get back into coming into gyms is a massive push. It's a massive, it's a key part. And how do you do that? Because it's not only the importance of a spreadsheet, it's actually, you're doing something that's going to help people now.

• 1:17:54Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  And prevent illnesses from being healthy a lot of the time.

• 1:17:59Steven Bartlett?

  And help their mental health, which people.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. People think it's just physical.

• 1:18:03Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  It's not. Like, I go in the gym in that hour, it's unbelievable, three, four times a week. Cause you're on your own or with a, a, a partner or P T, whatever it is. And some of your best ideas or best flushing of things is there.

• 1:18:18Steven Bartlett?

  All my ideas.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? It's like, because you're having that time alone and you're getting to sit and not think about anything else, but your reps or whatever it is. And then actually bang, something hits you, shit. That's kind of the later, that's one, I'll go back to that. It's, it's unbelievable. It unlocks so much.

• 1:18:33Steven Bartlett?

  It does, yeah. It's my, I, I said, I'm saying every day at nine P M, every single day without fail. Um, I go to the gym and regardless of how busy I am here, which is always too busy. Every day the team say, they know that at a certain time I get up and I go to the gym every single day without fail. And it's, and it's, you see it as, okay, well, I'm trying to get muscles. It's like, no, that's where I think of ideas. So health, and I'm really, I'm really happy that you said that because um, I've had that revelation in the last year. And I think making health cool, thank you, making health cool again would um, help more parts of society than we realise.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:19:07Steven Bartlett?

  Especially guys that are looking for a sense of purpose in their life, you know?

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I think that, and it's, it's, again, this, that's the pandemic as well, maybe created a lot more health conscious people.

• 1:19:17Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  And it's just the ways in which they're going to work out now is, is going to be key. And even my kids are the same, like, I was, I say to them, I don't want to have to come home and tell you to work out. You should want to work out, just do it. And then I'm, sometimes I'm actually driving somewhere. And all of a sudden, one of the boys is, or my little girl, they're running somewhere.

• 1:19:35Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  And that's like, for me, that's a success. That's, that's, that's, that's what I want to see. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm not forcing them to do it. If they're doing it off their own back now, this could be like their lifestyle for the rest of their life. That they're healthy, living healthy, understand what it means. So, and my two boys want to be footballers as well. So it's important for them to, to be physically active.

• 1:19:56Steven Bartlett?

  As a dad that was a football legend, what do you do to help a son that wants to be a football player? Get there.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Pray.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  I pray every night and just say, please, man, that my kids be players like every other parent. Um, I'd give everything for them to play football and be like top players. Seriously, man. But if they don't, this is what I always say to them, but there ain't pressure. If you don't make it, I don't care. It's life. I would love you to be, but if you don't make it, it's fine. You do something else. One unfortunately is a centre back like me at the moment.

• 1:20:30Steven Bartlett?

  Why unfortunately?

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Because then he'll be judged against me more. If he played a different position, like my other goalkeeper, my other one's a goalkeeper.

• 1:20:35Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  So no one's gonna say, oh, he's not as good as Rio, because he's a goalkeeper. You know what I mean? So, um, but yeah, but they're both, they're both playing now. They're both at clubs, so they're, they're happy. The biggest thing, they're enjoying it, which is great. So it's a basic answer, but it's so true. Do you know what I mean? You're doing something that they enjoy, that they want to get up out of bed every day for, and that's all you want. And it goes back to the same thing. When you're there, you better be working. I don't want this, like, if a manager comes to me and they're doing the appraisal of your performances the last two months, I do it every quarter, they come back and tell me that you don't work hard enough, you ain't going. Because it's embarrassing for yourself to hear that.

• 1:21:14Steven Bartlett?

  But do you, is there anything that you can do? Can you like call someone and be like, give my kid a chance? Because that's how always I thought it was, like.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but every, every footballer's kids would have been players then.

• 1:21:22Steven Bartlett?

  That's true.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like saying that your child is going to be able to build a 200 million pound company because you have.

• 1:21:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just not, it doesn't happen because there's so many variables that can affect that.

• 1:21:33Steven Bartlett?

  I guess all you can do is just try and give them some lessons.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely some advice. And it's like, but it's like, when you become a parent, it'll be the same. Your kids don't want to hear it from you. You're their dad.

• 1:21:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  They don't want to hear all of this from you. You're their dad. They'd rather hear it from the Sunday league coach who's got no qualifications and listen to him. And I'm sitting there looking at my son like, do you realise what I have done? What I did, why you're here, and you're not listening to me, you're not taking my advice. You're used to kill me, right?

• 1:22:03Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  But then I realise it's more about just giving them the tools from a mental perspective to how to think and live like a professional.

• 1:22:12Steven Bartlett?

  Do they know who you are?

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  They do, it's weird, my son said this to me the other day, he said, Dad, until I got FIFA, I didn't really know how good you was, you know? I said, what do you mean? He says like, you're a legend on FIFA, the game. So now I know, obviously, I see your stats, they're sick, they're sick.

• 1:22:26Steven Bartlett?

  How old is he?

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  He's, he's 14 now, but like, it took him, he probably, he said only like about till two years ago when he started playing FIFA. He realised, right, Dad, you're like, yeah. And before that, he was looking at me like I was just any man, like any guy. Like, and I say to them like, yeah, and one of my sons used to go, yeah, but Dad, you really know that though, seriously? I said, what's this guy saying? What are you talking about?

• 1:22:50Steven Bartlett?

  I made you, bro.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  He was like, but that's how they were, because they were just oblivious to it. And a lot of players I've spoke to, and I asked them, does your kid know that you were like a top player? Not really, they don't.

• 1:23:00Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Steven Bartlett?

  You must want to sit him down and show him some tapes now.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then you don't sit there and do that. It's like, almost like they've got to go and find it. And that's what they've, they've done now since, obviously, they go on YouTube and look at stuff and go, Dad, you actually, you're not bad. Are people saying like, it's you or Virgil van Dijk, so who's better? And like, Virgil van Dijk is sick. Like, and you're sitting there going, well, you make your mind up, then you better be backing your dad.

• 1:23:23Steven Bartlett?

  Who is better than you, Virgil van Dijk?

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  I'd say me, innit?

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Plus he's Liverpool, so I can't support that.

• 1:23:30Steven Bartlett?

  Who is the best defender in the world, in your view?

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Right now?

• 1:23:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's Van Dijk.

• 1:23:33Steven Bartlett?

  You think it's Van Dijk?

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Ramos.

• 1:23:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Ramos, his age is obviously, it, it works against him, but Ramos in terms of influence.

• 1:23:40Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Um, in the last seven or eight years has been the standout because he's like, he's just, he's been a monster. Scores goals, scored over a hundred goals, you know, centre back.

• 1:23:50Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  His career, yeah, crazy. But Van Dijk, the last two years has been the best, yeah.

• 1:23:57Steven Bartlett?

  Liverpool aren't having a good time at the moment, it's been fun.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  I'm not going.

• 1:24:00Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not going, the best, we've got some Liverpool fans in here, and I tell you what, I've, I've made the most of this.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a beautiful thing.

• 1:24:08Steven Bartlett?

  Every day, I'm like watching the games, I didn't care before, I'm like watching, sat there watching the games, like I'm watching the United final.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Eating popcorn.

• 1:24:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, just like that, oh, and then I'll text them, oh, you've just conceded? What's the excuse today? Oh, no fans, all that nonsense.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  No players, got an injury.

• 1:24:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, heard it all. Um, you know, you, lastly, you know, you said, you said that you're happy now. Happiest you've, you've felt in a long time.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, definitely, like, I'm just, my face didn't actually say it, did it? My face didn't say that.

• 1:24:35Steven Bartlett?

  No, your face looked like it.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  I'm the happiest I've, I've been, man, it's just because. I don't know, I've got three healthy children, four healthy children, now I've got a newborn.

• 1:24:43Steven Bartlett?

  My baby, yeah.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Um. A wife.

• 1:24:47Steven Bartlett?

  Really forgot.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Who does everything, who's brilliant, um, family, friends, um, yeah, man, it's just.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  And, and, and business is going well as well. And I can see. I can see stuff happening and evolving. Like you can almost, you can feel stuff happening. Do you know what I mean? You must have felt that with some of the stuff that you do. You feel you, you, you, you get onto something.

• 1:25:10Steven Bartlett?

  Momentum, a little bit.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  The momentum starts coming, you can see it building. So.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  I'm in a good place, man. I'm, I'm, I'm really happy.

• 1:25:17Steven Bartlett?

  What do you want?

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  What do you mean, what I want?

• 1:25:20Steven Bartlett?

  I purposely ambiguous. Like, what do you, what do you want? When you think about what you want now, what is it?

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  I just, I just wanna be part of something that people go, whoa. That was, that's the shit. Like, that's how they've done that.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Fair play, well, well played. That's what I want.

• 1:25:38Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Cause I, that's how I've always been. You play football, first and foremost, I want it, cause I want it to be a success before that, obviously. But that recognition, I think we all have a little bit in us that you want that recognition. Whether it's from your friends, your close network of people, family, or outside that. But why, why, why as a football player did you buy the paper? Or do you go online?

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  What numbers beside your name? If you've got a four out of 10, that paper's getting thrown away. Get a nine, a ten, a ten, eight, a ten. Well, you're looking for that recognition. And I think we've all got a little bit in that. Why'd you say well done to your team, one of the members of your team? Cause you know that person. Will feed off that recognition. So I'm not ashamed to say that. I, I, I'm definitely like that as well.

• 1:26:25Steven Bartlett?

  Well, thank you so much for, for coming today. It means a lot. And, um, you're an incredibly inspiring guy. Like, I have no doubt that you're gonna, you're gonna. Find that thing and it's gonna be, become, um, just as successful as everything else you've done in your life because. You've got all the, you've got the philosophical attributes that are conducive with success. Like you're, you're not someone that got lucky. You've clearly got a mindset that is conducive with success. And especially when you, you, you talk about how curious you are with things. Like when I say it, I mean it. Like the way you look at me when I talk about something that like if I talk about something that's maybe a little bit outside of your realm of experience, you might as well have pen and paper in the hand because that's the facial expression, right?

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  I've got notepads at home. It's going in.

• 1:27:02Steven Bartlett?

  Really? So Umar, who I referenced in the podcast, is the CEO of Pretty Little Thing. And he was always the same. And he said to me, he was like, I'd get 16 year olds in this office. And I'd be like, tell me about TikTok. And he just sits there and studies them. He doesn't know about it. He knows about it.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  But he will know through them.

• 1:27:17Steven Bartlett?

  And he'll learn. And he used to say to me, I'm a sponge. So Mahmoud and Umar would invite me to the office, sometimes four days a week. And I'd just sit in the office and they'd just ask me questions. And then you'd see them just sort of changing their strategy a little bit on social media, et cetera. And you know, their record speaks for itself. But yeah, you've been a huge inspiration for me for many, many years as a leader, as a guy, you know, I didn't know you before, you know, a couple of years ago when we met and the guy you are and the leader you are is tremendously inspiring. You're a good guy and you're incredibly inspiring as well. So thank you for making the time today.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  You inspire me now as well. So it's a kind of, it works both ways. I appreciate you.

• 1:27:56Steven Bartlett?

  Appreciate you for that. Thank you.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Cool, man.

• 1:27:58Steven Bartlett?

  Thanks.