Example: The Dark Side Of Money & Fame

Example is a music artist, producer, writer and rapper who has been leading the way in the music industry for the last 16 years. A trailblazer and an innovator, Example started out as a rapper before moving over into dance, lighting up Glastonbury, Isle of Wight and Global Gathering among many, many other festivals. After only being able to harness his traumas in order to be successful, he quit his hard-partying rock ‘n’ roll lifestyle and found happiness and balance in his life, and found a way to be happy in his music too. One of the most popular live performers in the world, Example’s was one of the first shows post-COVID to completely sell out. His new album We May Grow Old But We Never Grow Up is out on the 17th June. Follow Example: Twitter - https://twitter.com/Example Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/example Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  No one signs a record deal and has a manager come up and go, "There's a good chance you're going to be really famous." Here's a pamphlet on how to not be a [BLEEP].

• 0:15Steven Bartlett?

  Money and fame can show you who you are. And one of the things you said is, "The person I was when I was 27 was a fucking monster."

• 0:21Speaker 00

  When I became famous, I just went a bit off the rails with drugs and alcohol. I think there was just this one weekend at Glastonbury where I just kind of disappeared for 48 hours. I was in an absolute state.

• 0:32Steven Bartlett?

  What was the cost?

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Well, it's just not nice to see your parents cry, you know?

• 0:39Speaker 00

  I look back as it being one of the worst weeks ever. And then I met Erin. Just watching someone grow a baby and give birth is like one of the most sobering experiences ever.

• 0:51Steven Bartlett?

  You tragically had a miscarriage on your second.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  I remember I was invited on to Lorraine and I was meant to go on and talk about a single on a tour. Just before I went on, they went, "We just found out you lost a second baby. Do you want to make the whole interview about that?" I got so many messages from guys after, just going, "That's amazing you went on and spoke about that." I've realised it's been the first times I've spoken about things that I should have probably spoken about with friends or family a long time ago.

• 1:13Steven Bartlett?

  If you were advising a younger Elliot, what would you say in terms of the components that make for a good life?

• 1:20Speaker 00

  I've often thought about this.

• 1:23Steven Bartlett?

  So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:39Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I always try and do, again, because I tend to believe that we are all a product of our, like, of typically our significant childhood events, whatever they might be. When I look at your story, I was hazarding a guess as well. I was saying, "Well, this was obviously quite a key moment. This is the key moment." But in your own words, what were those catalyst key moments from your childhood that ultimately shaped you to become who you are today?

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Oh, wow. I think... In terms of work ethic, um it's definitely from my mum and dad. I was very aware as a kid, um you know, even like even before as a teenager, how much time and effort my mum and dad put into. Well, like they're both working class and they're both came from very humble beginnings. But I think the main thing I was aware of is that my dad was always away working as a kid. I was also aware that a lot of my friends' parents weren't together. You know, they were, a lot of them were raised by just a single mum's. Um but then I also saw how much effort my mum put in. She was, she didn't have a day job, but I could see how hard my mum worked, especially with my dad being away.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  So I think the work ethic thing has helped me a great deal in terms of where I've got to. Um part, not so much anymore, but partly trying to impress them. Or, you know, feeling like I uh lived up to their standards, maybe in my early twenties, mid twenties. Apart from, you know, like my parents' influence as a kid. I think mainly, I'd say that, that, you know, the culture at school in terms of music culture, London. I grew up in Fulham, I went to school in Wandsworth. And even it was a really nice school in terms of it was a modern school, it was a technology college. As uh I said, the majority of the kids I went to school with all lived on council estates. And I didn't, but I spent a lot of time down there.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  So I think that was really good in helping me not only understand um the different cultures and therefore as a result where the music cultures came from. Just like how other people live and how other people, you know, what people have to go, go through. You know, like some of my best friends, their mums would have five jobs. And they'd be living in two bedroom uh council flats with like seven siblings. So I think that, even though I didn't live that life, it was quite opening to see that. Um.

• 3:58Steven Bartlett?

  Did you enjoy school?

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Loved school, loved, I, I, I loved drama, loved maths. I was really good at maths, but not very good at English, which is weird because I've used the English language. I manipulate English language for, for financial gain, really. But um, yeah, I wasn't very good at English and wasn't very good at science because I wasn't interested in them. I wasn't really interested in religious studies because I always found there was occasionally you'd see the different, you know, religions, whether it's Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, there'd be like little squabbles in the playground. So I kind of didn't like that religion could segregate people. So, but everything else I was interested in, geography, maths, drama, art, music, I excelled at and loved.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  Because, you know, I loved going to school. My mum was always like, you were an absolute nerd when it comes to school. You like, you couldn't wait to get there and you couldn't wait to tell me about everything you'd learnt that day. And you couldn't wait to get there the next day. And when it was coming to the end of school holidays, you couldn't wait to get back to school. So I, I think I, I enjoyed structure and I enjoyed either the attention from being a class clown. It, it playground, you know, playtime, because I wasn't very good at sport. I was good at running in a straight line or swimming in a straight line, but I wasn't good at team sports.

• 5:09Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  So I think um, I, I really felt like, like school was good for not only my brain, which was a bit hyperactive. But also I got this outlet of doing, making people laugh by doing impressions.

• 5:25Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you care about that, making people laugh?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Because I, I just think, I felt like, I don't know, I've always enjoyed being an attention seeker. Um, my mum said that when I was, you know, very young, like five, five, six years old. She felt like I was misbehaving a lot at school and she made a decision to put me on stage in the local drama, drama group. I definitely think my mum spotted something in me, which was like, this kid needs to perform and he needs attention. And that's his outlet and that sort of levels him out a bit.

• 5:56Steven Bartlett?

  I'm surprised to hear that you were so keen to get back to school because I also read that you were at some point bullied by the other kids.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was, but I think because my mum and dad did such a good job in sort of. I don't, I can't, I can't even remember any specific lessons, but I just know that my mum always made me feel loved. And uh, understood, you know, so if I was.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  If I'd go home and just be like, yeah, they took the piss out of my teeth again today, or they took piss out of my ears again today, or whatever. She'd just be like, son, we are all built differently. Like, we were, you know, she'd be like, your dad had funny ears when I met him, and he's the most beautiful man in the world, as far as I'm concerned, you know, just little lessons like that. So I just think there was so much love at home that whatever hit me on the outside world, whether that was down the local park, you know, little kids in gangs or at school. I just felt like I was mentally prepared for it.

• 6:53Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  And then I think that kind of helped. It gives you quite a thick skin in terms of when it comes to you get into the music business. It's like you have to deal with so much disappointment. Like, when I think that I've been doing this, I'd say, you know, I got my first record deal in two thousand and six, but I was releasing music in two thousand and four. Um, I've played over a thousand gigs, you know, like most of my peer group have disappeared now. Um, from, say, two thousand and ten, two thousand and eleven. When I think of like my peer group from around then, like Chasing Status and Sub Focus are still going. Um, but most of the other artists that I came up with have kind of disappeared

• 7:36Speaker 00

  or semi-retired or are kind of just sort of like doing their own thing on the peripheral now, whereas I'm still very much, my focus is, like, I'm only competing myself. I used to worry so much about competing with them, you know?

• 7:48Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. And you got, you got a diagnosis at a fairly young age for, for having asperger's?

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah, but I've been, I, my mum was quite good and I think she, uh, I think, whether it was, I don't, I can't remember because I was so young, but it would have either been from her friends, you know, other mums down the park going, Elliot's a bit, you know, on the spectrum, and, you know, what's, what's up with him? Because I was such a, I suppose, like, hyperactive kid.

• 8:18Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  And I, I'd sort of seem to flip between different personalities all the time. But I also had these weird, you know, weird sort of like nervous twitches.

• 8:28Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Um, and I would, uh, I had a photographic memory for like, even at a young age, I'd be like, just look at a list of. I know, like the American States and just memorize them very, you know, like within two or three reads, or I'd get the Trivial Pursuit box out and memorize every single question in a box of Trivial Pursuit, just so when we came to play with like neighbors or friends or family at a barbecue, I knew the answer to everything. I think my dad didn't clock that I'd memorize them all, but instead of telling everyone that I'd memorized them all, he was like, yeah, my son's really, really sharp, he's really well.

• 9:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Um, things like that, you know.

• 9:04Steven Bartlett?

  How does that sit with you now, that, that, that diagnosis and do you still?

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Well, I just think every, there's no way of knowing who, what anyone is. I think everyone can be a little bit of.

• 9:12Steven Bartlett?

  Everything.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Everything, it's not, it's not clear cut to just go, this person is.

• 9:16Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  This diagnosis based on, you know, research by doctors and scientists and other patients. It's very hard because I think every human being has a little bit of.

• 9:26Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Of something and you could, you can't just say someone is one hundred percent definitely got this.

• 9:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  You know, that thing. So I prefer, and I can see some things in my eldest already, where he shows certain similarities to me as a kid, but then Erin says, no, I used to do that as a kid as well. And she's a bit mad like me as well, but I think weird is good. I definitely think weird is good and I think it's special and I think my mum spotted that. So I'm kind of glad that I was never put into any special programs or put into a special school or extracurricular activities or even on light medication. I'm quite, you know, I'm quite thankful for that because I've got friends my age who've been on meds since they were kids and are still on some form now, you know, and they

• 10:12Speaker 00

  think they're bipolar or asperger or ADHD and, and I'm like, there's actually a really close friend of mine who actually encouraged him to maybe have like six months off. And he, uh, he's better for it now and he doesn't take the meds anymore. He's like, you know, he's better at dealing with his, uh, let's say his demons and his, you know, his thoughts, maybe that used to haunt him and scare him. He's, he's stopped taking the meds and he's, he doesn't take them and he's back, he's back for it.

• 10:44Steven Bartlett?

  Have you, have you ever had any of those demons, especially at a young age, that you used to contend with?

• 10:50Speaker 00

  I think the main thing, and I still contend with it now, is sometimes I just have so many thoughts.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  And I'm not like a warrior, I've never been a warrior, because I've always known how to compartmentize stuff. And I'm really good with admin, I'm really good at multitasking. But it's kind of been a gift and a curse, like it's either been having a whole, say, film script or scenario in my head going round and round that I can't seem to switch off. And that might be whilst I'm in a meeting, I'm not doing it now. It might be, you know, like, when I say multitasking, I'm like, I can sometimes be in the studio writing a song, but have a shopping list in my head that I just can't seem to get rid of.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Which is why yoga can be really good for me, and like, you know, breathwork, like Vim Hofstahl, that really levels me out.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  But, for instance, like, I, when I'm freestyling, you know, and I don't mean like pre-written raps that people go out and perform in a rap battle, I mean like just like freestyling, like rhyming. Sometimes I'll be at the gym and I'll be there for 45 minutes and the whole time I'm there, I'm freestyling in my head. And it could be about what that person's wearing, what exercise that person's doing, what music's playing. And it's kind of a gift and a curse because it's great for, you know, when you're producing songs, just words being able to just fall out, flow out, but also just like not being able to switch off sometimes. So I'll be in a room having a conversation with someone and they're like, you're not listening, are you? And I'm like, I'm really sorry, but I've got.

• 12:31Steven Bartlett?

  A shopping list.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  You're like, okay, what are you getting later? And I'm just there like, Swiss cheese, light Swiss cheese.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  I've just got a very overactive brain.

• 12:44Steven Bartlett?

  You talked about failure a second ago. You said, you know, going into the music industry, there's a lot, you met with a lot of failure and ups and downs. After your first album, your first studio album, I was reading about your kind of, your feelings and sentiments towards it. It sounded like you were gonna quit.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you have to be prepared for disappointment in this industry, especially because I'm about to release my eighth album. And I don't really have any expectations for it, other than whoever hears it, I hope really enjoys it. I don't really know how many streams this is gonna do, or it's just, you have to be quite robust in the sense that you may put so much time and effort into a song and Radio One or Capitol turn around and don't playlist it. Or you make a song and think, this is gonna perform really well on Spotify because it should get on the Workout playlist and it'll get on the UK House playlist. And maybe this could do well in Germany and like, not that I make music like that,

• 13:43Speaker 00

  but once a song's finished, you can't help but have expectations for it. And then to think that you might have spent, you know, I might have written it in four or five hours, but then spent six months perfecting the mix downs and adding instrumentation and so on, or adding another vocalist or a feature to it. And then to think that that might come out and someone's, someone somewhere is like, nah, not actually into this. When I signed to Ministry of Sound, there was so much pressure, like, you know, constant meetings every week. I wouldn't go to them because after a while they'd get too intense. It was like, well, Radio One are discussing this in playlist this week. We're hopefully gonna go on the C-list next week. And then two weeks later, we're hopefully be move up to the B-list. And then the aim is weaker release, we're gonna be on the A-list and we should be getting 11 to 15 spins a week.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  And, you know, hopefully we'll go in straight into iTunes with pre-orders into the top 10 and we'll climb to number one and MTV are fully behind this. And you're gonna do a live launch next week and Capitol have just come on board with it. And it's all, you know, it's great when you're flying, you know, and obviously I was having number one singles and top 10s. It's great, but you realise the pressure that artists are put under and managers, and then the pressure that the record labels are putting on themselves. You know, to compete with, you know, because they've got to bring in X amount of revenue. As you know, if you're in marketing or A and R, they're under pressure from your bosses. And then the artists are under pressure from the label and then the managers are under pressure from what the artist expects. And it's actually a losing formula.

• 15:09Steven Bartlett?

  Money and fame, they often say, can show you who you are, or it can bring out the best and worst in you. And one of the things you said is the person I was when I was twenty seven was a fucking monster compared to the person I was when I was twenty one.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:21Steven Bartlett?

  What did you mean by fucking monster?

• 15:25Speaker 00

  I was just, um, obviously, so I hadn't tried, uh, class A drugs until I was twenty three. Which is mad because most of my friends and peer group in music and I grew up with were probably doing it at fourteen. Um, and then I just think when I became famous and came into money, I just went a bit off the rails with drugs and alcohol. But I was also in a relationship where I was lying to my girlfriend and cheating on her. And I was just everywhere I was going, girls were throwing themselves at me and people wanted to party with me. And people were doing everything they could to try and keep me awake all night with them. You know, whether it was girls or bad influences, other celebrities, you know.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  And then you get carried away because you're like, oh my God, I'm hanging out with such and such actor and such and such footballer and this model and this person. And we've got access to this bar and this club and we've walked straight into this restaurant and got a table. So you just go off the rails a bit and I feel like everybody kind of needs to when you get to that stage. Every artist, actor that I've spoken to, whether they've chipped away at it for years like I did. Or just had this sudden overnight fame, I feel like you kind of need to get it out of your system. Because it's kind of like, it's not, I'm not saying everyone has to, but nearly everybody I know is just like, oh God, how amazing does this feel? Like, I'm getting free clothes and free trainers and I've just been given this free car.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  I'm getting upgraded on this flight and I've got this table at this restaurant that I couldn't get before. I've been invited to this premiere and I was just on that television show with that Hollywood actor. And then I'm in this person's house, you know, this person's giving me free drugs and this girl wants to sleep with me. And this girl, these girls want a threesome and then all this shit, so. Like, why would you not take it? Because you get to do something that, you know, it's like a one in a million thing. No one else gets to do this. And you don't, you don't go, I need to do this because no one else gets to do it. You're just like, this is, this is fun. This is mad. Like, my life's mad right now. And I just defy anyone to not, to not do the same. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes like top level athletes, because they have to,

• 17:33Speaker 00

  their focus is being an athlete. So it's all about the body and their fitness.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  They can't do drugs and alcohol in the same way. So I think for a lot, that's why a lot of footballers just end up like, ah, I'm gonna have fifteen cars or I'm gonna get gambling addiction. Because so everyone needs some kind of vice, I guess. I mean, all human beings need some kind of vice anyway. I think, I think that's how we're built. We're not meant to just live squeaky clean, like constantly. Like, I think life's boring, like, and it doesn't have to be sex or drugs and alcohol, but someone, you need something. You need something to obsess over that feels a little bit like naughty, a little bit edgy.

• 18:13Steven Bartlett?

  What was the cost? Because, I mean, all that sounds great, but there's got to be, everything in life has a cost.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  Well, the cost was I, you know, I broke a, a lovely girl's heart and, you know, it took her a while to deal with that, I'm sure afterwards. And, you know, I, I probably upset quite a few people along the way. I know my parents weren't proud of me, even though I was doing really well career wise. Um, there was like a moment where there was a bit of an intervention. You know, it was almost like, what have you become? You know, we're not proud of you. This is not cool.

• 18:47Steven Bartlett?

  What, what caused that?

• 18:48Speaker 00

  I just, I think there was just this one weekend at Glastonbury, where I just kind of went down with my band and crew and my girlfriend and my sister. And I just kind of, just completely went off the radar, kind of disappeared for forty eight hours. And then everyone was like, where is he? And obviously Glastonbury is a crazy place to get lost in anyway. And then I just turned up fifteen minutes before I went on stage. So I was still professional, but I was like, I was, uh, I was in an absolute state. Around like twenty twelve, no, twenty ten to twenty twelve, it wasn't great.

• 19:21Steven Bartlett?

  When your family stage an intervention, what does that look like in like real terms? Is that like a phone call or is that?

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Well, no, it's like sort of catching me off guard and sitting me down in a, in a room, you know, and showing me how disappointed they are.

• 19:34Steven Bartlett?

  And how did you take that?

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Well, it's just not nice to see your parents cry, you know? It's quite, you know, it still took me a few years after that to get my act together.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, I just, I don't, I don't feel like there's any real shame in it looking back. Like, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm proud of it, but I just feel like certain mistakes have to be made. It's like in the same way, I don't really have any regrets about anything. I'm just like, everything I've ever done in life, however bad it is, whatever I've hurt or whatever I've learnt from it, and I've tried to make amends for it, you know?

• 20:08Steven Bartlett?

  Did you, is there in hindsight, information that you didn't have that caused you to choose that path? Like, is there something you, you, you now know that is stopping you from repeating that cycle and just continuing to do that?

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Well, it's just like, I mean, like, my mum always said, as a kid, she was like, I was, I was a liar as a kid. But she said they were like, not really lies that really hurt anyone. She said, I just knew that you, you had this overly creative brain and this imagination. So you would just take situations and just exaggerate them. And she was like, and it kind of makes sense that you're a songwriter and you're a storyteller. And I get that. And looking back now, you never, there were certain times where I know it would really upset my parents. And my mum in particular, because she was spending more time with me, probably day to day.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  You know, like ten like little white lies about scenarios that had happened just because I sort of enjoyed the fact maybe that I was attention seeking, could manipulate a situation that I could take a situation, my imagination run wild with it and create other scenarios. And I think that was, uh, it's something that I don't do at all anymore. But like lying as a kid and then carrying that through, I didn't, then obviously realise at school, you can't get away with certain things because, you know, there's structure and there's teachers. So it probably calmed me down a bit then. And then I'd had like four serious girlfriends and I'd never once cheated on them. Because it just wasn't on my radar. It wasn't the way I've been brought up.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  But it's just like, I guess, and I've spoken to other guys about this and girls, it's just like you have that first time you do it, feel bad, and then one becomes two, and then two becomes five, and five becomes ten, and then it just kind of spirals out of control and you kind of just like numb your brain to it. And I just don't think, there's no, no one signs a record deal or gets into the music industry and has a record label or manager come up to them and go, by the way, there's a good chance you're gonna be really successful and famous in the next year or two years. So read this book, here's a pamphlet on how to not be a C U N T.

• 22:10Steven Bartlett?

  People often say that if you are a late, late to lose your virginity, you, when you get into your adulthood, you kind of make up for lost time.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Well, that's, that was me. So all my friends were losing their virginity at thirteen and fourteen, and I was seventeen and a half. So I was probably one of the last at my school. Maybe it's just a part of South London I grew up in. But um, yes, I used to hear stories from other, other guys at school about some of the stuff they were doing at fourteen, and that was just like absolutely mind blowing. But I definitely feel that because I was a late bloomer, then by the time I was in my like early to late twenties, I just went crazy with it because you're almost doing it for your younger self, you know?

• 22:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah. That was what I suspected because I was, I was reading through and I remember thinking, yeah, if you're a bit of a late bloomer and then you get it full on, you know, in your early twenties because you become this star and it's thrown at you, it's almost like the forbidden fruit.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Exactly. Cause like some guys at school are like, you know, the guys who developed a bit faster than the other guys, you know, they've got biceps and six packs at thirteen, fourteen. And they're exceptional at football regardless of what their academics like, or they're the fastest sprinter and then they're really good looking. And then I went to school with guys who slept with like fifteen girls by the time they were sixteen. So chances are they get to the mid to late twenties and they're not like, oh, I need to just go out there and go crazy because they've already done it. Whereas not only did I, I didn't feel like I needed to go crazy, but given the opportunity and you're presented with like, you can. It's like a kid in a sweet shop, you know?

• 23:41Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  And then like really, you're just like. Yeah, this isn't me. You know, it just becomes a bit boring and mundane after a while.

• 23:50Steven Bartlett?

  Was there a point where you you you felt that, where you thought, John, I'm doing all this, but I hate myself?

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:55Steven Bartlett?

  Was that two thousand and?

• 23:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then luckily I just, and then I met Erin.

• 24:00Steven Bartlett?

  What was so, but specifically, so was there was there days where you were waking up thinking, what the fuck is my life?

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, it's also, it's like, you come on stage at a gig at eleven P M. In Manchester, I remember there was this one week where I was just like, I look back at it being one of the worst weeks ever, where. Um, I was just splitting up properly with my ex, who I cheated on a lot, you know, moving out from hers. I was pretty lonely because I was living with my step grandad in like a an ex council house in Fulham. Um, and he was like ninety three and the whole house was like, it smelled quite bad and it was falling apart. I mean, it's bless him, he was in great shape and for ninety three and. But obviously the house wasn't the cleanest, nicest place you could live.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  I didn't really have much cash, even though I was starting to become quite famous and successful. It was like the money tends to come six months later. You know, you have a number one single or kickstarts with number three in the charts. Your festival fees will go up tenfold, but probably not until the following summer.

• 25:06Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  And so I was still living with him, so it was quite, I was quite embarrassed to bring friends or even girls back to this place. Um, so I just moved, finally moved out from what my ex, which has had to happen, it was a long time coming. And then I was like, I I was at a gig in Manchester, came on stage at eleven. And then I had to be up at four thirty M the next day to shoot a music video because we had to catch a catch sunrise. And I was like, why can't we do sunset and pretend it's sunrise, you know, so I can actually go home and have a sleep? They were like, oh, the director can't work that late or something. And I remember looking on, when I look back, I've never watched the music video since, it's a video called Two Lives.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  And the lyric is actually called, it's like two lives, I live in two lives, don't know which side of me is where the truth lies, that's the chorus. Um. So it was like a poignant moment recording a music video for a song on about three hours sleep. I looked awful in the video, like huge bags on my eyes. And then went back from the video shoot to this house where my step grandad was. And just sort of sat in bed feeling quite lonely. And then the next day doing like a magazine cover shoot. And then going straight to Radio One to record a live lounge. And then going out for dinner that night for, you know, like for a PR press junket or something. And then the next day was like another TV show and another radio show.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  And then I called this girl to come around just because I literally just wanted to cuddle, you know? And then was up there till like four AM and then up at eight AM and then sat in a taxi for like an hour and a half to go across to like Hackney. Whole time, just you know, I remember just getting to the end of the week, just going like, I can't do this. Can't do this, right? And I remember saying to my manager, I was just like, we need to start cancelling these TV and radio news. It was like, you know, he's like, you can't cancel going on Graham Norton. You know, you can't cancel going on, you maybe cancel, no offence, probably cancelled going on Sunday brunch. Sorry, Sunday brunch. Um, but.

• 27:06Steven Bartlett?

  You just got banned for Sunday.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then, and then you're almost like, when's my next day off? In eight days, you know, stuff like that. It was like, what we've got this weekend again? Because I, you know, by this point, wouldn't look at the diary because it would scare me. It was like, well, you've got, um, Ibiza Rocks Friday. And then you've got Global Gathering Saturday. And then you've got, um, something in Finland on Sunday. And then I was like, I've got Monday off. No, no, no, you've got Mallorca and then you've got Ibiza again Tuesday. And then you get into each thing and you're just so completely knackered. I'm fucked. That you're just like. Okay, I'll have a drink. You know, I'm drinking on the plane, drinking when we get there. And then you can't remember the gigs.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  I remember like you looked at the photos and the videos and like the crowd were having an amazing time. Thank God that I can do this even when I'm at my lowest, when I've got no energy left, when I've had six, seven drinks. But I look back on that and that was one of the worst weeks ever. And then I think it was maybe like June twenty eleven. Album came out, I know, July, and then I went to Australia in October that year to do my first ever Australian tour. And that's when I met Erin.

• 28:18Steven Bartlett?

  When you're like sort of self medicating to kind of deal with the pace of life or whatever. It tends to be the case, I mean, just from sitting here, speaking to musicians, that

• 28:29Steven Bartlett?

  you're not far, especially when you're like, you use the word lonely, like a lack of connection, you're not far away there from mental health issues like anxiety and depression and those kinds of things typically. When you find yourself without connection in your life, self medicating, stressed by just looking at the thought of this hectic schedule, a lack of sleep. I can't imagine the diet was phenomenal.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  No, it wasn't. I mean, like, I I've always been into fitness and running and I would like, even when I was really, really knackered, like I've got my apartment still in in Fulham, right next to Craven Cottage. And it's actually that that was a big help because that whole period is like waking up every day. The river gave me so much calm, like.

• 29:13Steven Bartlett?

  Were you anxious?

• 29:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you just get up and sit on the balcony and have like, I'll make fried eggs on toast or beans on toast and just look across the river. And I live in the part of the river where there's no buildings opposite. It's like the barns, wetlands centre. So you feel like you're in the countryside. So that's a great escapism straight away from London in general. So I feel like when I bought that,

• 29:33Speaker 00

  you know, subconsciously, I was probably thinking about this peace and tranquility escape from whenever I'm home, I'll just close the door to my apartment. And I've got the river there. But it was a. I think I was quite smart and I whenever I could, I would go for a swim or I'd go for a run. Cause I remember my dad used to say to me when he was, so when my mum was pregnant with me. My dad was working, as I said, two hours up in Birmingham, so driving four hours a day. Um, cause it was the only job he could get at the time. He was working for um, computer services company. Um, Nixdorf Siemens Group and he had alopecia as well from stress. His dad was dying. He was pregnant with my mum and he was training for the marathon.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  And I think that, you know, stress related alopecia is quite clear why he lost his hair, given everything, the aforementioned things. Um, and but I think running is what saved him from a very young age. Like that time alone and like whenever I go for a run to this day, I don't listen to music. I I most people go for to listen to music for fitness, whatever. That is my brain escapism and it's either swimming, yoga or running. It's the only time when I cannot think about anything else. And whenever I was anxious or stressed about things, those are the things that saved me. I actually think that living by the river. And even if I did it twice a week during those stressful times, just being able to get up and just go for a four mile jog.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  I don't know where my head would have been like if I hadn't have got that. Like been out to go out and do that and run by specifically by the river, not through a city.

• 31:08Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  With traffic lights and cars, like on straight onto the tow path, over Hammersmith Bridge, along the river. By fields, over Putney Bridge, back through Bishop's Park, pretty much the area I grew up in. And then also I got to the stage where I was like, I was calling girls up to come over and it was like. Who's gonna give the best cuddle and who's gonna stroke me asleep? Like that's where. Again, not didn't mean I make a conscious decision, but looking back now would be like. I don't just wanna have like meaningless sex. I just wanna actually be held. You know, bear in mind, my mum, dad and sister all lived on the other side of the world by this point. They'd moved to Australia. You know, didn't have a girlfriend like I had my mates, you know, in my band who would. In a way, travelling with the bands back then, so I travel with a DJ now, but back then I travelled drums, guitar, bass and then.

• 31:52Speaker 00

  Five or six crews, kind of like a little family on the road.

• 31:55Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  So that was probably better than if I'd been with just a DJ. That would have been quite lonely.

• 31:59Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, I kind of feel like my. There's an intelligent, emotionally intelligent part of me I wasn't actually in tune with. Was inviting girls over who were gonna give me the best cuddle and stroke me to sleep. So I just felt, you know, from in that sort of fetal position and felt loved or felt safe, you know what I mean?

• 32:16Steven Bartlett?

  Did you know you were lonely? Like in the, at the time?

• 32:20Speaker 00

  No, I didn't at all. That's what I'm saying.

• 32:22Steven Bartlett?

  But in hindsight?

• 32:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's so many things about that whole period where I was so ambitious and I was so resilient. And I was also, despite what I was putting into my body, all things considered, pretty healthy. Or I certainly had endurance in terms of what I was capable of, mental endurance and physical endurance. So, yeah, so I wasn't healthy. I mean, I was, I just had, I had endurance and I had stamina. And that was probably from, you know, starting the whole drugs and alcohol thing way later than most other people. You know, like, say, twenty three, twenty four. Had I started that at eighteen, like most of my friends, probably would have burnt out way sooner.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  But I was in, you know, when I wasn't on tour and I wasn't doing promotions, I was at the gym nearly every day. And I'd go to the gym and then for a run. So I was in pretty good shape to be able to do all these things. And also performing for ninety minutes on stage can be like playing a football match. And you know, sometimes you play five football matches a week. And I would always have a good physio after I got back. You know, so every three or four days I'd have a full body massage, needles, cupping, so on, just to. And then I would, whenever I could, I would spend a whole day, two, three days. I know it doesn't sound like much, but just complete detox.

• 33:41Steven Bartlett?

  What, what, what was it that made you go from being someone who was dishonest in your relationships? And would, would cheat on your partner to being honest and committed? Was there a catalyst event? Was it Erin? Was it?

• 33:55Speaker 00

  I just think when I met Erin, we just sort of fell so head over the heels with each other. Within pretty much the first night.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  And then she dropped me off at the airport and she was almost a bit tearful. She was like, I don't think I'm ever gonna see you again. I bet you've got a girlfriend in every city. I was like, not at all.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  No, I was like, I've got a few in London. But no, I was like, you think too highly of me. I haven't got a girlfriend every city. And then she called her mum and her mum was like, I bet he's got a girlfriend every city. She was like, no, no, she goes, honestly, I think we're gonna get married. After we spent the night together.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  But that was my sort of moment. I was just like, reset, go back to who you've always known you were meant to be. You know, be the person that your mum and dad raised, which is to be honest and faithful and.

• 34:44Steven Bartlett?

  And you were honest with her from the jump.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  We basically, it was weird because we got to know each other a lot over FaceTime. And then she'd come to London for two weeks and go back to Sydney and then I'd go to Australia maybe for a week. And then we'd speak on the phone for three weeks and then she'd come to London again for maybe a month. And then I'd go spend Christmas in Australia, do some festivals, but also see my mum and dad and my sister. And spend time, I lived with her in Bondi. But because that time becomes so precious, you tell each other absolutely everything. So I think we'd been together six months and we knew everything about each other in terms of exes, worst fears. You know, biggest achievements, biggest wants, desires, everything sexually, all the partners we've been with, like you just, it was almost like a speed dating crash course of like.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  You know, when you, when people are together, generally they'll be intimate with each other or they'll just laugh and giggle and go out for dinner. You meet each other's friends and so on. When you're chatting over FaceTime, it tends to be more like an interview. You know, so you end up oversharing.

• 35:47Steven Bartlett?

  What has Erin taught you about love? There'll be a lot of people that are listening to your story and they'll think, maybe I'm in the reckless phase where I'm, I'm sampling all the forbidden fruit. And then it seems quite clear from your story that you, you met this person and as you said, you kind of both changed each other. But what, what, what advice can you impart on, on someone who's in that reckless phase?

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Oh, and I think if people are in a reckless phase, you, you either, you're like, I'm, I need to do this now. And I don't know how long you're gonna do that for, but people, if you're smart, you can work it out. I've got guys I know now who are like, they, that because, you know, they, they work in high intensity, high pressured worlds of like. Finance and hedge funds. And I know a lot of guys who wanna settle down, but also on the side wanna continue having these other experiences with women.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  And I think they feel that they have a right to do that now. I'm not sure if that's because of the mentality of a lot of people that are working that world with. You know, like it's a boys' club sort of thing and. And that's, that's, you know, that's just how it is. I feel like some of them, you know, like there's a lot of guys who like seem to be happily married with kids. My age, bit older and seem to have all these other girlfriends and flings and bits on the side.

• 37:07Steven Bartlett?

  If you'd met Erin at another phase in your life, though, do you think it would have worked out?

• 37:11Speaker 00

  No, I met, we met at the perfect time. She'd just split up with someone.

• 37:14Steven Bartlett?

  Like, timing is a, is a key factor.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, she'd been single for maybe seven weeks and I'd been single for maybe three months.

• 37:20Steven Bartlett?

  If you'd met her at, say, twenty, I don't know, five?

• 37:23Speaker 00

  I don't think so. If I'd have been a matter of two or three years earlier, it wouldn't have worked. We met at exact right. It was almost like the stars aligned, the universe decided that we were going to collide at that moment.

• 37:36Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned she was a Gemini and then you just mentioned the universe decided. Are you at all, um, spiritual?

• 37:41Speaker 00

  I wasn't and I am now.

• 37:43Steven Bartlett?

  Did she have a role to play in that?

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess so, because, you know, I just, I used to just think I was in control of everything. And I know I was one of these people, I was like, I don't believe in luck, you make your own luck, because that was kind of what my dad would instill in me. And I've never been religious and I never used to believe in zodiacs, but then I, I did used to believe, you know, after I'd, uh, read some Stephen Hawking stuff. And then you start reading books on lateral thinking and the laws of attraction and so on. You sort of go, oh, actually, yeah, we are just atoms just bouncing off one another, one another, just like. Because we've got brains and we can make our own decisions, but that doesn't still mean that we aren't in control of the energy around us and the energy around other people and how we collide and then what things come out of that.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Um. So as soon as I got my head around that, and then Erin started explaining the zodiac. And when you were born and what time of day you were born and, you know, the, the distance between planets and so on. And what moon it was that day. I, I guess I didn't have the patience for it before.

• 38:50Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  And then like she started explaining, and you go, actually, yeah. And that's why certain people have certain traits and so on. I'm not like, I'm more into like spirituality since, um, you know, I'd start doing yoga, for instance. And meditation, you know, like two or three times a week, we'll do a sauna and ice bath, put the kids to bed. We do like ten minutes sauna, two minutes ice, ten minutes sauna, two minutes ice, and then you just come out, just feel like, you know, you feel so alive. Um. And then the moment you kind of have kids and you're like, oh, my God, this is other human beings that we made. You do get in touch a lot more with your, your spiritual side, I think, because you're just like, you know.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  You could, like, science and spirituality can go side by side. I think, you know, I think that spiritual awareness of oneself actually comes from having a greater understanding of science and the way the universe works in general.

• 39:45Steven Bartlett?

  What impact has that had on your life, yoga, breathwork and all that stuff?

• 39:49Speaker 00

  I think the breathwork's been incredible, like, so if it doesn't involve like ice or meditation even, I, I listen to, um. There's a guy I know back in Brisbane, he's got something called the Breath Collective, and he gets people in like groups of twenty around to his house, clears out all the sofa out the way and and the TV and they all sit on the floor on their backs with their eyes closed. And it's like, it's that Wim Hof style of, you know, like, um. Sh- short breath out, like deep breath in, short breath out, and then holding your breath, you know, in that moment, and you feel all the physical changes in your body. Like, I'll do it a couple of nights a week. I did it last night because I wanted to have a good night's sleep. There was a lot of stuff going on in my head, but like, it's hard. If you'd have tried to sell that to a younger me, I would have been like, you're having a fucking laugh, mate. You want me to spend ten minutes of my day

• 40:34Speaker 00

  breathing in and out in silence, what you, because I just didn't understand how to relax and how to be at peace with myself. And how to actually deal with my inner thoughts and inner demons, you know?

• 40:45Steven Bartlett?

  How much credit does Erin deserve for this?

• 40:47Speaker 00

  Um.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  A huge amount, really. She's um, just watching someone grow a baby and give birth and then breastfeed them for a year. It's like one of the most sobering experiences ever. You know. It's like, it just blows your mind like, I just think the moment, the rush of adrenaline and endorphins, whatever that I got when she gave birth to our first, standing up.

• 41:21Steven Bartlett?

  Standing up?

• 41:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, she'd been training her whole way through her pregnancy as well. Like, she found a form of uh, pregnancy HIIT training, which had been approved by her uh midwife and her GP. Obviously not crazy jumping around, but you know, squats and lunges and so on and push-ups, obviously not much ab work, but she's reading lots of um research saying, you know, the healthier the mother is, you know. Yeah, it's like if you eat nuts during pregnancy, child has no chance of having a nut allergy. But if the mother eats enough nuts during it, um likewise if she gets her heart rate up to a safe level, that baby would be born with a like that's likely to have a heart condition.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  And there's other research shows that if the mother does an X amount of training throughout, you know, it's even goes back to say the hunter gatherer sort of period where a female might have to be on the move constantly or on the run whilst holding a baby. And what that instills in the baby's genetic makeup when they're born like, you know, I'd have to find the research papers, but there's stuff that she was reading about, your baby will have zero chance of asthma if you do X amount of exercise whilst you're growing that baby and it can all be passed on, like the science behind it's mental, it's like when uh, like your baby has a way uh higher chance of starting life with a better immune system, just from breastfeeding alone, if you, a mother can breastfeed because.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  The baby saliva passes information to the nipple. And then the nipple tells the mother what to put more of into

• 43:00Steven Bartlett?

  Of Christ.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  the milk. So it would be like if the baby's lacking in iron or zinc or certain vitamins, his saliva from the baby's mouth will tell that to the nipple. And then the mother will produce milk with more zinc, more magnesium, more vitamin D to to give the baby. So which is why a lot of babies have better immune systems when they're breastfed and not bottle fed.

• 43:23Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  So it's just, you know, on formula. So crazy stuff like that. But then, yeah, just seeing my wife like, and she had no gas, no epidural, no, no assistance, no, you know, drugs as it were to help her through pain relief. And she gave birth standing up. And like the midwife was like, catch your baby.

• 43:40Steven Bartlett?

  Who who called it? You called it?

• 43:42Speaker 00

  No, she did. And then I was, and then she just sort of collapsed into my legs and we just sat there and then didn't even look at see if it was a boy or a girl for like the first 10 minutes. We were just so in awe. It was like this whole, it's the most alive I've ever felt. It's mental. And like, cause apparently the um, the tailbone actually blocks the baby's head from coming out. So human beings, women should give birth on all fours or standing up. They're not meant to give birth on their backs. Because where the tailbone goes under, the baby's head's trying to come out. It's actually,

• 44:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  women should be standing up. So that tailbone's like disengaged and can baby can basically just fall straight out.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  Mad, right?

• 44:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, crazy.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  I bet you weren't expecting this today.

• 44:22Steven Bartlett?

  No, I wasn't. But there you go. Every day's a school day. You so you you give birth to your first, and one of the things that I read about was you tragically had a miscarriage on your second.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, the second one. I think we got so, I want to say cocky, so we're so excited. And the first one seemed to go so well. Um, everything from when she found out she was pregnant to giving birth. That you're not meant to tell people that early on. But then when she found out she was pregnant with the second one that we lost, it had only been five weeks. And really, you're meant to wait quite a bit longer and have your first scan and so on. We went around and told everyone. And then she lost it a few we- a few weeks later, just before, you know, like the safe date. So that was pretty, pretty tough. I remember I was invited on to Lorraine Kelly's show. And I was meant to go on and talk about a single on a tour. And then they kind of blindsided me. And it was just before I went on, they went,

• 45:13Speaker 00

  we just found out you lost the second baby. Do you want to make the whole interview about that? And I was like, For what reason they were just like, because we've never had a guy come on here and talk about it before. It's definitely not like a celebrity. And I was like, okay, cool. So the whole interview became about that and it was actually, it was quite positive because I got so many messages from guys afterwards just going, that's amazing you went on and spoke about that. Because guys are just like, woman's just lost a baby.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Uh, guys have just got to get on with it and deal with it by themselves, just do everything they can to support the mother.

• 45:46Steven Bartlett?

  What was it like for you?

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Well, it was really tough because you just don't know how to, you're like, oh my God, this is actually something that was living inside of her that has now died and I've just got to be there for her and I'm just gonna have to like suck it up and get on with it. Because no one ever really asked the dad.

• 46:01Steven Bartlett?

  How are you feeling?

• 46:02Speaker 00

  How are you feeling? It's not in really in our, uh, in our society, it's not normal. Everyone just goes, oh my God, how is she?

• 46:09Steven Bartlett?

  How were you feeling?

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Like just helpless, really. It's awful. But yeah, Erin's, my um, dad was great and my dad was great as well. In terms of uh, you know, how do you feel? How do you think you should feel? How do you wanna feel? How do you, what do you think you need to do to get through this? Especially when you've already got a baby and then you're just like, how beautiful that whole experience was and you're like, oh, could have another one and then you start, is this gonna happen with the next one, the next one?

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, tough.

• 46:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, men don't, I mean, all of the, even like, men aren't really even taught how to deal with how they're feeling themselves, right?

• 46:50Speaker 00

  No, I, I, I, I've actually, you know, doing stuff like this and doing interviews with either magazines or television shows. I've realised there's been, sometimes there's been first times I've spoken about things that I should have probably spoken about with friends or family a long time ago. You know, because we're just, you're like, it's either the whole macho thing of, you don't talk about that. You know, just get on with it. Like, that's a woman's thing, you know, when women discuss things like that, I'm not even talking about miscarriages, I'm talking about relationships or, you know.

• 47:23Steven Bartlett?

  When you look forward at your future then, so you've got this eighth studio album coming out, what do you want the next five, 10 years to look like in terms of your career?

• 47:33Speaker 00

  I would love to accidentally somehow have a chart hit again, just to remember what it feels like.

• 47:39Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not key to me, but it'd be amazing to have like a number one album or a top 10 single, you know, it'll probably be based on streams rather than sales in this day and age, but you know, some, just because I want to remember how it feels.

• 47:53Steven Bartlett?

  You've forgotten?

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've forgotten what it kind of feels like because it's 10 years ago, you know, I had like 22 top 40 singles, I think seven top 10s, two number ones, but I haven't anything for so long, but I'm still going, like my tour sells out in a way that you would assume that I was still having hits, but then you realise that hits aren't that important. What's important for me is just making songs that go off when you perform live, you know, so, you know, I did an hour on Saturday night, there were probably seven hits in there, the other nine songs weren't hits, but they still go off, like they're hits, people, majority of the crowd know them word for word, the energy is there, you know, the build, the

• 48:34Speaker 00

  drop. I did the last sold out tour in the UK of any artist before Covid, which was March 2020. I played Kentish Town Forum, sold out March the 7th, I was back in Australia by 9th, I think 10 days later, we went into lockdown in Brisbane and the rest of the UK and the world followed pretty much like April that year. So I played the last ever tour and then I played the first festival anywhere in the world after Covid, I mean, Covid was, everyone was in lockdown in England, America, so on. I played up in Darwin, in the Northern Territory in Australia, I played 5,000 people, they'd had 23 Covid cases. So

• 49:18Speaker 00

  as long as you go out there with a negative test. So I was at a festival in October, October 2021, no, October 2020.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  Um, playing a gig in Darwin, five thousand people. And then I came back and just did my January, February tours. I did one of the first sold out tours after Covid, so.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  I feel like live music and my performance is like my bread and butter. It's what I know best, it's what I do best. But it would be really nice to, you know, taste a little bit of success again with a, with a song that maybe I. Cause it's still, don't forget, I'm still in a situation where I've got forty gigs or somewhere. Anyone who follows me on Instagram is like, wow, amazing, you're having the best year forever. But I still bump into people in the street and it's like a taxi driver on the way here today. He's like, you example, ain't ya? Like, yeah, you go, what you been doing? You haven't released any music for years. So, well, released an album in June, I did release another album last year and.

• 50:14Steven Bartlett?

  How does that feel?

• 50:15Speaker 00

  It's quite, it just makes, it just goes to show you that there's, there's, some people think if you're not on Jonathan Ross or Graham Norton or on Capital FM or on Radio One and you're not playing Radio One's Big Weekend or doing Capital Summertime Ball, then you've retired. And then there's another bunch of people who hear you in the clubs or listen to you on Spotify playlist and have no idea even what Radio One or Capital FM is. And then there's your diehards who follow you and know every move you're doing from your Instagram. But you know, I don't tweet that much anymore because it's become quite a toxic place, but you know, you meet people and they're just like, I didn't even know you were playing, but well, you know, you'll be like, they'll be like, oh mate, what you doing in Newcastle? You're like, I'm playing Newcastle Academy tonight.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  They're like, but I've followed you on Twitter, I've not seen anything on you. You know, cause I used to be known for tweeting quite a lot back around two thousand and eleven and twelve. I used to get into a lot of trouble and have arguments and such on there, but you realise that everyone has their way of discovering and digesting and discovering, you know, discovering music. Um, the same way we do with films and so on, or how you read about, some people just read BBC Sport. Some people just follow a Twitter account that updates you on the Premier League. And there's some people who only finds out about music from Spotify. And there's some people who still only religiously listen to the Capital Breakfast Show every morning. And the thing that I find is I just have to know where my fans are and what they want.

• 51:39Steven Bartlett?

  There's always gonna be that group of people though, that if you're not in the charts, they think that you've either retired or fallen.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Exactly, and they still think that's the case for me. So I'll be like, even when I got a taxi to Brixton in February. Because I'd like to get black taxis mainly because one of my cousins is a black cab driver. And he's like, you can't use Uber. I like the Tube, but whilst I'm blonde, which is for the foreseeable future, the Tube's not a safe place for me at the moment. It's a selfie central. And then obviously you have one or two and then that leads to 10 more and 20 more. And I don't mind meeting in general public, I love it, but it also, it's nice to just sit on a Tube and listen to music sometimes rather than having constant photos. But this guy was like, so what you doing, were you guys, was there a gig plans? And I was like, yeah, it's my gig. He's like, oh, what, I'm driving examples whose own gig? I was like, yeah, yeah, you're taking me to soundcheck now. He went, oh, I could have sworn you retired.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  My eldest used to come watch you.

• 52:29Steven Bartlett?

  Does that piss you off a bit?

• 52:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I'm like, when they're like, my eldest used to watch you. I'm like, well, if he just followed me on Instagram, he could still keep up to date with my song releases and he could still come and watch. Anyway, I ended up putting all three of his kids and their partners on the guest list.

• 52:42Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 52:43Speaker 00

  And then I got a DM, I think, from one of his sons the next day. I think his son was maybe 26. He was like, ah, it's time of my life, reminding us. So you just realise that because you're not on Capital FM anymore, that certain people, it's like, I don't know, they could be a painter decorator, they could be an estate agent, they could be, you know, a taxi driver, whatever. But everyone has their go to places for music and it might be like in your office where you work all day on, they have Radio One on. So whatever's on Radio One may dictate which festivals they go to or who they go and see on tour because it's advertised on there. It's like, you know, like playing at V Festival, playing at Creamfields, it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you're not, if other people only discover music from their spinning class.

• 53:25Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  And whatever music's playing. So people messaging go, oh, your new single was on in my spinning class today. I didn't even realise you were still releasing music. And you almost want to go, well, I've released three albums since then and, you know, 11 singles. But you can't, it is quite frustrating.

• 53:41Steven Bartlett?

  Was that, you left, you kind of left the, when you were with those labels and you were charting all the time with these, with these, these like big global hits, you leave that game. And then was there a moment where it was difficult to deal with the, what you've described there, where it was most difficult to deal with it? Where people are going, where are you? Like, where's, where's the music? Like, why aren't you charting? If you fall in.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Well, it is, you know what also is really frustrating is like, so I've performed in 27 countries in Europe. Um. I'd say about ten of those countries I've I've headlined festivals. So there was a period where I was really big in Finland, Hungary, Estonia, uh Czech, uh Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania. I'll be doing one or two festivals in those countries every year for four or five years, headlining or second on the bill, really, really decent fees. Hmm. And then you I left Ministry of Sound, um two thousand and thirteen, signed to Sony, didn't really have it, had no success at Sony. I had one top ten single, album bombed, they spent a fortune on it, didn't really know where to position me. And all of a sudden, all the gigs dried up in these countries as well.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  And uh we were going back to them like with Spotify numbers and, you know, saying, well, he's still got, you know, four percent of his fans uh are in Hungary, which is massive considering my fan base in the UK. And Australia's my second biggest, like four percent in Hungary. And then it would be like, you know, one percent of his listeners are Poland. That's a pretty Yeah. big listenership still. And then it was like two point eight percent of his listenership in Colombia. And you go to these promoters and they'll just be like, look, his last single, the ten percent of his listeners came from your country. And they're almost like, yeah, but he's not on radio. And you're like, radio fucking dead, you know? Yeah.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Or, you know, I've been and done a chat show in Germany for a bit, so I'm not getting. I played the biggest festival in Germany is called Rock Amrin and Rockin Park. So that's like their Reading and Leeds. I played that festival three times, unbelievable, massive crowds. I knew the words, word for word, like half my set. I had three top ten singles in Germany. And then the moment you're not on radio, they're like, no, we'd like to book him, but there's, there's, until he gets back onto the radio. And you're like, well, they know my other hits and like, and there's people streaming the new stuff. Hmm. So this summer, we got, we've got Benekasim in Spain. Um. We've got a gig lined up in Portugal and I'm playing Amsterdam this Friday. But it's been really tough to actually go in and like almost having to present the figures.

• 56:11Steven Bartlett?

  I see this with artists that have that meteoric, I mean, I sat with Craig David and he's an example of an artist at eighteen years old. I think he had a number one album, something fucking staggering.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  So he's only like a year older than me, but in my mind Craig David's like five or six years old because he was in the charts at the same age as I was listening to. So I was in clubs listening to garage music.

• 56:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  And he was on top of the pops.

• 56:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Whereas I didn't have any success until eight years after that. So I was twenty six, twenty seven.

• 56:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and there's a twenty two year gap between when Craig David, I think, had his first one to his most recent album. Is there a thing of like, you basically start competing with a former version of your success?

• 56:47Speaker 00

  You have to. I only compete with myself. But when I'm in the studio, I'm only competing with myself.

• 56:52Steven Bartlett?

  But the form of the.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, and my former person, which is why I say to you, I'm over the moon that I've got my busiest summer in six years. I'm so in love with this album. I'm still playing this album, but even though it's been finished for months. But that's why I'm like, I'd love to just taste that chart success again, just once or twice. A to shut up all the people who think I'm retired and B just to remember what it feels like. You know, it's almost like a little validation that my career is going to continue for the next five, six, seven, eight years as long as I stay fit and healthy and I keep producing music and people still want to come and, you know, they choose one night a year they go out to a gig. Ten of their mates get absolute off their face and have the time of their life. If they, I want them to pick me for that, then I've got a career.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  I don't need anything else. I don't need radio. I don't even really need streaming.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  But it would just be nice to have that validation. And I shouldn't be sat here going, I need validation, but it would be really nice to feel that again. So every time I get in a taxi, it's like, oh, you're sharp. Oh, yeah, I heard you. I saw you on Jonathan Ross the other day. I thought you'd given up, you know, as Australia, rather than just sitting there going. I've never stopped releasing music. I've never stopped touring. But I've been touring for sixteen years. I've been releasing music for sixteen years. But. You know what I mean?

• 58:07Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Slightly frustrating, but.

• 58:09Steven Bartlett?

  I think this about myself, and when you're talking about having this kind of chasing the former version of yourself, I worry about that sometimes. I think, I always think, especially now that I'm on Dragon's Den on the BBC, I think when I come off that, the cabbie who watches BBC One but doesn't have a clue about podcasting.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:26Steven Bartlett?

  Is it gonna happen?

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Well, you have some people, you're the podcast guy, and it's like, oh, you're the dragon, you're the dragon.

• 58:31Steven Bartlett?

  It's an age thing for me.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:33Steven Bartlett?

  Someone's coming up to me in the street, I know exactly where they know me from by their demographic. And if a 56-year-old male comes up to me, "Oh, you're on Dragon's Den."

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:43Steven Bartlett?

  He has no idea that I do anything else, or that I'm, you know.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  So in saying that, right, so on my last tour, most nights I come off our stage before I get on the tour bus and, you know, my tour manager will be out and he'll be like, "Look, you'll be out in about an hour if you want to wear, I know it's cold, mate, put a hoodie on," you know. He makes sure they'll, you know, I say, "Just go and give them a load of Monster Munch or whatever." You know, so he goes out with a big, whatever's left on our rider, Monster Munch, maybe a couple of beers, he checks their age. And so you might have 200 people waiting after the gig, and then by the time I come out at 11:30, 12, there might only be 20. But I'll always say to them, "Where did you buy this ticket from and why did you buy this ticket?" It's just a little bit of market research. And all the young kids are like, "We saw it advertised on your Instagram." And pretty much anyone over 30, 40 years old, they saw a.

• 59:30Steven Bartlett?

  Billboard.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  A billboard.

• 59:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  On a bus stop or on a train station, or their friend forwarded them a link from gigs and tours or Bands in Town on Facebook.

• 59:40Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  So even though I'm not on Bands in Town, I don't go on Facebook much. I don't really decide when my posters are put up. That's like, you know, the touring company, the promotions company decide that. As long as these people know where to find me, that's great. And then they come to the gig and then maybe there's like four or five songs they haven't heard that I've released in the last two years, but chances are the two of them they'll fall in love with and go back and continue to stream those songs.

• 1:00:02Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  Or they add it to their playlist.

• 1:00:04Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. There's a need though to try to detach a little bit from the external validation driving your self opinion, I guess, because as much as it can be like a good driver of ambition and competition and having something to aim for is great, you don't want to be dragged like because I can see how an artist who is used to getting number ones all the time could get a number two and feel like shit because it's a number two. Whereas really, without all the number ones, a number two is unbelievable.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I was saying this earlier, these are my top 10s.

• 1:00:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 00

  All of those, those are my three number twos. That was actually Unorthodox with Wretch.

• 1:00:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  That was, we'll be coming back with Calvin. And that was Say Nothing, which came out just after that. And even looking back, it's just like, like to go from six to three, from two to one, it would have been nice if those last years just went 111. Like the difference, you know, like the difference between that one and number one was about 267 downloads on iTunes. And the difference between that one, that one was maybe like 400 and something. And it's like, I know, it's nice to say, it's amazing to say I've had two number one singles and a number one album. Um, out of everything that I've done in my career, but it'd be like extra nice to say, I've had four number ones. You know what I mean?

• 1:01:17Steven Bartlett?

  But that's exactly what I mean. It's, you're never gonna be.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  But I don't lose sleep over it.

• 1:01:22Steven Bartlett?

  What can you tell me about this album? Can I, why don't I like listen to something? I want to, I need some kind of flavour of this, this eighth album.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  There's, I've never done drum and bass before. And there's two drum and bass tracks on it.

• 1:01:34Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  I've, I used to, when I started emceeing, like 15, it was mainly over UK Garage or Garage, Garage. Um, and 10 tracks in this album are Garage. Um, and then there's three drill tracks, um, with probably the best spitting I've ever done. There's like, I'll play you a song afterwards, but there's a track where I'm just spitting straight for three minutes. We shot the first half of the video in a shipping container yard in Brisbane, which would be in Brisbane, we got to use for free. Just like a complete, no regulations, just like, yeah, mate, uh, open the gate for you, we'll be back at eight. Just go where you want, just don't, don't, don't break a leg or anything, don't do anything stupid. Um,

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  so we shot this video, which I directed in a container yard. Then one of my mates is in construction. We shot the second half of the video. On the roof of his new apartment block, where I'm standing on top of the lift shaft. And then we've got drone footage going around me. Um, very cost effective video and it's basically just me rapping solidly for three minutes. And I think it's probably the best rapping spitting I've ever done. I based it all on Busta Rhymes, like I used, you know, from back when I was like seventeen. So I'm just hoping, well, I know that when people hear this album, they're gonna go, fuck, he sounds, he sounds good, he sounds comfortable, he sounds the most confident, best, like performances I've ever heard him do. I I truly believe that, right?

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  And I can't wait for people to hear it because it's also like you associate drill music with, uh, gangs and knife crime and selling drugs. And I've basically just taken inspiration from the beats. Um, and just done Elliot, you know, I'm being true to myself. I'm not, which is what I've always done. It's just like, I used to feel like, as I was saying, she was just off air before. I used to feel like I was this uninvited guest to rap and hip hop. Because I felt that you needed certain credentials, you know, to do it. And then you slowly realise that, no, it's just like an art form. As long as you're respectful of the culture, it's just like, what are you doing with that? That music, what, what story are you telling? And you've always just got to tell your own story, I guess.

• 1:03:47Steven Bartlett?

  Having been through all of this, Elliot, if I may call you Elliot, having been through the fame, the, you know, the, the ups and downs of the music industry, the, you know, the sex, the drugs, the rock and roll, all of it, and also the family, the kids and all of that. If you were advising a younger Elliot, who might be listening to this, and what actually matters in terms of the components that make for a good life, what would you say now in hindsight, having tasted it all?

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  Right now, I mean, like, being a dad is so, so important to me and so rewarding. Especially once, the little one, Ennio, who's now four, he was a bit later with the speech. The fact he can now speak, it's like, my eldest, Evander, he was speaking like eighteen months, he was saying words. And then our youngest didn't really start speaking until he was three. But now it's not only just being able to communicate with them, but then listen to them speak to each other. There's bonkers stuff that comes out their mouth. It's just like, it's the most rewarding thing of the day. I'll spend most of the day just writing down quotes they've said and send them to my mum and dad or my sister or to Erin's family, just like, you won't believe. And like, the stuff that comes out their mouth.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  That's, that's, like, for me, it's like, I love cooking, I love food, I love fine dining, I love eating out. Like, food is so important to me, training is so important to me, sleep is important to me, sex is important to me, being a dad's important to me. And if I'm being totally honest, like, I make music for a living, but I could, right now, I love being on stage. But if it was, someone was like, you've got another year now, you're not going to write one song or do another gig, I'd be totally happy with that, as long as I had all the other things.

• 1:05:30Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. We have a, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:05:36Steven Bartlett?

  And I, I read it now, so I haven't seen this before. It says, "Of all the achievements in your life, which do you think made the biggest impact on another?"

• 1:05:51Speaker 00

  On another?

• 1:05:53Steven Bartlett?

  I'm gonna guess they mean...

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Also, everything you achieved on another person?

• 1:05:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yes. "Of all the achievements in your life, which do you think made the biggest impact on another person?"

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  That's interesting. That's a really good question.

• 1:06:11Steven Bartlett?

  That is a really interesting question.

• 1:06:13Speaker 00

  Well, do you know what I would say, actually, and I could probably apply this to a few. I'll apply it to two people rather than just one person in particular, is there's a guy.

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  Three, three, three people in particular. So there was a guy called David Stewart, who was my guitarist for three and a half years.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  Very different to me. He was like a private school educated kid.

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  But, and, and, you know, grew up in, in money, if you like, near, near Westbourne Grove. And we used to rib him quite a bit. He was like six, seven years younger than all of us. But he was a great kid, really good guitarist, really good keyboard player, great singer, good looking. He always wanted to make it as a solo artist. And for whatever reason, this was around the same time Ed Sheeran started blowing up, where it's like, he could be the best looking kid in the world, but, you know. No offence, Ed's a really good mate of mine, but you know what I mean? Ed's not a model. He's not that Justin Timberlake cut. But David Stewart, fair play to him, like, we spent a lot of time writing songs together. I would try and hone his lyrics. He was amazing with melody. And he's now officially the most successful songwriter in the world, in terms of streams.

• 1:07:27Speaker 00

  So he wrote the last three Jonas Brothers singles, and he wrote Dynamite for BTS, which is.

• 1:07:33Steven Bartlett?

  Wow.

• 1:07:34Speaker 00

  I think the third or fourth most streamed song of all time. It was the most streamed song of the last year. I'm not saying he owes that to me, but what I'm saying is, I know for a fact that his years on the road with me and the time me writing songs with him. Was instrumental in his drive and ambition and his craft. I feel like he may have gone on to do this anyway, but he, you know, he, he definitely, I feel like success. He's more success and I'm really proud of him, like, that he's now the most successful songwriter in the world. You know, and then there's like my, my guitarist who replaced him, another guy called Kai Kai, he's gone on to be a very successful composer. He went, left me to go and play guitar with Dua Lipa for a few years when she was blown up and might drop my drummer.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  Um. He was playing with uh the Streets and Lily Allen and played with me for five years. He went on to help put together Ed Sheeran's live show and create the technology behind his loop pedals.

• 1:08:31Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  And then my playback guy, he's the guy who runs the laptops which run alongside the live musicians. He's gone on to put together huge shows for Kygo in Las Vegas, so I feel like nearly everybody who's worked alongside with me, I've learnt from them and then, but they've, I'm, I guess what I'm saying is I'm glad that they've all gone on to do huge things. They haven't gone on to just be standard session musicians.

• 1:08:56Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  You know, like my bass player, Andy Shell Drake's now a producer in his own right. He produced all night. So that song was just me and him, you know, some of my biggest song, I suppose, from the second year of my career was down to him, like everybody. There's not one person I've worked with closely uh in a musical level, you know, in terms of what people regard as session musicians. Most session musicians just go on to play for other bands on the road for eternity, you know, earning three, four hundred pounds a gig. And they're playing into their fifties or sixties, just getting by, whereas all the guys who've been part of my band, who are basically my brothers on tour, my family, all have been making incredible success of themselves.

• 1:09:35Steven Bartlett?

  That's dope. And I mean, that's, that, that says a lot about the environment that you guys have together when you're together and like.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm quite proud of that, you know?

• 1:09:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Cause I didn't try, I didn't intend to do that. It was just, obviously it was clearly a nice place to work and was inspirational and was very creative and.

• 1:09:53Steven Bartlett?

  And ambitious.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  And they've parted company with me all on good terms and have gone, I'm not just gonna sit back. I'm just gonna go and do what Elliot's done in my own way. And in David Stewart's case, it's like stratospheric, you know, like produced and wrote the biggest song in the world that year for a Korean pop band. Mental.

• 1:10:16Steven Bartlett?

  Mad.

• 1:10:18Steven Bartlett?

  Elliot, example. Thank you.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Mate, thanks for having me. I've loved this.

• 1:10:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I mean, these conversations are all so unbelievably different, but I think your honesty and like, there's a real sort of overwhelming sense of inspiration I get from watching a man go on a journey and change in so many really fundamental ways in terms of their character, their craft, their art, and even like their emotional awareness and their ability to like be in touch with their emotions. Tends to be the case that women can be the catalyst. Certainly for me it was. You meet the right woman at the right time.

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  You're very easy to speak to though, I must say. You give me a real sense of safety in that I can talk about whatever I want and there's no agenda, which is good.

• 1:10:58Steven Bartlett?

  That's really interesting. Yeah, because you know, it's funny because I write these questions down that I actually don't write any questions down, but I write like bullet points, things to remember. And then I genuinely go in the direction that I'm interested in. But so many things you talk about, even from breathwork, my girlfriend is a breathwork practitioner. So I'm doing breathwork all the time these days. You know, the Wim Hof thing, we've just booked a retreat to do Wim Hof's ice thing.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  See, I had no idea about any of this.

• 1:11:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly. So that's why like when you're saying, I find it really intriguing to like probing around there. But it's all led by curiosity and there's so much in your story that is really, really inspiring to me. And I'm actually, the most inspiring thing for me is what happens next. So the most inspiring thing to me is seeing how your eighth album plays out, how you continue to like move with the changing times and changing platforms and who that creative and artist becomes. But yeah, thank you for your time today. I love these conversations and it's been super energizing for me. And I know it will be for everybody that's listened. So thank you.