Slow Thinking

Professor and Dean Emeritus of NYU Stern School of Business and economist, Peter Henry, joins Scott to discuss the inevitability of the moment we’re in surrounding the Black Lives Matter movement, systemic racism, and injustice. Henry also serves on a variety of boards, including Nike, and shares how brands can lead with authenticity. Henry is the author of Turnaround: Third World Lessons for First World Growth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to episode 12 of the Prop G Show. We are in the midst of a national crisis, specifically the Black Lives Matter movement. Systemic racism has been the catalyst for what has been not a regional, not a citywide protest, but a national movement. And it would be tone deaf to try and avoid or talk about something else today. So we're going to attempt to, as best we can, see if we can shed some new light on the topic. So today, we're bringing on a friend and my old boss, Professor and Dean Emeritus of NYU Stern School of Business, Peter Henry, who's also a well-regarded economist and author.

• 0:43Scott Galloway?

  We're bringing Peter on, A, because he's an incredibly intelligent, insightful person. And as a black man who has family in law enforcement, has, the bottom line is just has a perspective that I can never have. And so we wanted to bring him on and get his insight and views into some of these fairly complex times. So with that, let's kick off our interview with Dean Peter Henry, one of the most impressive people I know. True story about Peter. True story about Peter. When he was appointed dean, I read about him. Youngest dean appointed to a business school, former scholar athlete, played football at UNC, Rhodes Scholar, PhD from MIT, stamp, you know, the whole, just

• 1:27Scott Galloway?

  like crazy resume, right? First time I ever saw Peter, he was with his mother, walking her out of church on a Sunday. I mean, he's one of those guys, you kind of don't believe he's for real, but he is. Anyways, with that, our conversation with Dean Peter Henry.

• 1:50Scott Galloway?

  Peter, where does this podcast find you? I am in New York City, right near NYU. Let's, let's bust right into it. This is, you know, the social unrest gripping our city, gripping the country. It's not a regional thing. It's a national thing. Talk a little bit about the inevitability of this moment and what you think it means to the country.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it really was inevitable, Scott. You know, I couldn't have predicted that this would happen now. In fact, I thought the moment we're seeing right now, we'd see maybe 10 years from now. But just stepping back, if you think about it, so the United States is this amazing country founded on a bunch of contradictions, right? So it's, we've got this, we have this unbelievable document called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which are, you know, probably two of the, the, the leading institutions in the Western world in terms of, you know, being revolutionary in terms of ideas of freedom and so forth. But the country's also founded on slavery and genocide and stealing of land. And so you have this sort of evolution, you sort of fast forward the country a few hundred years and what's happened?

• 2:56Speaker 01

  So you have this amazing set of documents that talk about freedom and inalienable rights and equality of men, but the United States has never actually lived up to that ideal, right? And not only has the United States never lived up to that ideal, but the demographics of this country, as you know, Scott, are changing dramatically. And so by 2040, this country becomes a minority majority country. In other words, the majority of the country will no longer, will not look like the people who actually wrote those documents. And so I think it was inevitable the United States was going to face a reckoning moment where people had to decide, are we going to really honor the Constitution when the folks in the majority don't look like the people who wrote the Constitution?

• 3:41Speaker 01

  And I think that's really what, at a deeper level, what this is about.

• 3:46Scott Galloway?

  So a couple of things. One, you think, we hear a lot that if you look at how diverse we are, that we're doing better than most places. But you think, and it doesn't escape me, that we, we as Americans escaped oppression such that we could be free to enslave another people, right? That was kind of our founding action.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:06Scott Galloway?

  But you think it's in our DNA. So for example, do you think we're gonna have a tougher time getting to a place of racial justice and say, for example, Germany, because it's just in our, it's just not in our DNA, or controversy, or division, or this DNA of looting a country for its human capital and enslaving them and bringing them here for tremendous economic benefit for a ruling class. Do you think that holds us back, that DNA still gets in the way of our progress?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  It gets in the way, and it doesn't, you know, the thing is, Scott, we still haven't fully had the conversation about it. And we fully haven't fully had the conversation about it because it requires, a real conversation requires acknowledgement of, you know, what took place. And I think the difference between the United States and some other Western democracies is a point that you made. It's the size of the plurality, right? So you've got other Western democracies where you have, you know, terrible things that have happened, and where you have some, you know, multiculturalism. But the United States has a, you know, has a minority population that is huge relative to the, you know, the descendants of the founding

• 5:16Speaker 01

  fathers. And that's what's forcing us, right? Because if you think about it, you know, are you willing to actually honor freedom when you're not a super majority? And that's really, you know, what this is about. If you kind of look at, for instance, you know, like the last seven elections, I think, the Democrats have won the popular vote last six out of seven elections. And, you know, for years, people have said, well, you know, the Republican Party needs to be more competitive, right? Both the party needs to reform itself to actually compete, to win votes. That's one strategy. Another strategy is to actually suppress votes. And it's pretty clear that today's Republican Party has chosen not to compete. Their strategy is to suppress votes because of exactly the conflict that you mentioned.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  And so I don't think it's, I don't think it's, um, I think because of the way in which the country was founded, people get really uptight because they feel as though, you know, we can't talk about the history of the country honestly, because it means I'm going to, you know, I'm going to have to give up everything that I've got or something. You know, people are not responsible for the sins of their father, but, but we all have benefited, even myself included. I'm black. I'm a black immigrant, but I'm living in a country that is, that is, you know, where there's blood on the soil. And so let's have that conversation. We've, we've never fully had the conversation. We've only kind of put Band-Aids on it time and time again. But what's forcing us to really deal with it now is because the, the combination of the suppression that's going on, because a part of the country is worried that they're going to basically be in the, in the minority.

• 6:42Scott Galloway?

  Do you think, and this is, uh, so I, like, it's not, it's almost impossible. I'm a 55-year-old white dude, right? And it's almost impossible not to fully empathize with it. Or you can empathize, but I don't think I'll ever like really get it. I'm just treated differently when I'm pulled over by the cops. And I assume you're merely extrapolable, extrapolable. That's how they treat everybody. Do you, uh, let me put forward, um, a thesis and you respond to it, that systemic racism in our society is awful, but it's less bad than it's ever been. That we elected and re-elected a black president. There are more African-American police chiefs than ever. There are more people of color elected to Congress and Senate in

• 7:25Scott Galloway?

  this last election cycle. That what is happening here is the spark that has set on fire this underlying incendiary powder of income inequality that largely impacts or disproportionately impacts people of color and women. Or is it, is it that I just can't see that racism, is racism getting worse in this country?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what's getting worse.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  So systemic racism has always been an issue. I felt it not as much as some of others have felt it because of the own privilege that I have. But what has gotten worse is, again, it's sort of this inexorable kind of dynamics that's happening in the country, right? So President Obama gets elected, and that's unthinkable for a large, significant fraction of the US population. In some ways, it's symbolic of this demographic 2040 change that I talked about, right? So the fact that you can actually have a black president is, oh, my gosh, like, this

• 8:30Speaker 01

  day of reckoning, having a US that is not what I define the US to be, which is essentially a white, Christian, largely Anglo-Saxon country, right? And so I think that sets off fear and anxiety on top of the other issues you mentioned related to income inequality and so forth. And it forces the question, who are we, right? Am I going to, I'm actually going to allow the country to continue to evolve in such a way that, as you said, with more black police chiefs, more blacks in corporations, and we have made some real progress in a lot of these issues.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  But when the rubber hits the road, in terms of what you mentioned, sort of, you know, basic individual freedom, when I, Peter Henry, am not in my institutional role as a professor at NYU, former dean, person with a PhD, blah, blah, blah, and I'm just encountered in the street or on the highway, you know, I have an encounter with a law enforcement officer, we're back in that sort of, let's call it kind of, you know, primitive, primordial space of the fundamental power dynamics that have always defined the cornerstone of this country, which is frankly, that, you know, this is a country for white men.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  And everyone else is sort of, you know, allowed to sort of play as part of that system as long as they play a certain, certain role. And I think that the changes that we've seen from President Obama being elected twice to, you know, the Democrats winning a larger and larger fractions of the, of the popular vote and more frequently because of the change in demographic to the country are alarms to a certain subset of, of the GOP. And they've really taken it upon themselves to try to basically undo many of the safeguards in the constitution that actually underwrite the very principles of the country. And so it's a very complicated mix.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  So you could have, you know, the weakening or the chipping away of systemic racism in many institutions, but if fundamentally law enforcement, right, which is about protecting people's lives, or as we've seen, endangering people's lives, if that particular institution still can act with impunity in killing black men and people of color, then you've got a problem.

• 11:01Scott Galloway?

  Talk more about your personal experiences with law enforcement. I know you went to high school in an all white Chicago suburb and you, you interned with the Minneapolis Police Department in the late eighties. What has been your exposure and experience with law enforcement?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's interesting. So I've, I've great respect for policemen. I've family members who are in law enforcement and I've, you know, I have family members who serve, serve in the military. And, you know, you mentioned the Minneapolis Police Department, really terrific experience in many ways, you know, having a public safety internship and seeing what law enforcement does. But frankly, I'll be honest with you, after that summer, the single biggest change that I made in terms of my own sort of personal behaviors, I never left home without an identification. I've had the conversation with my four sons about, you know, how you comport yourself and how you need to always, you can never leave the house without identification because otherwise the police can say you are whoever they want to say you are. You're, you're, you know, you've, you've fit the description of, you know, some black

• 11:58Speaker 01

  male that's under, under suspicion unless you've got an identification. After my experience in the Minneapolis Police Department and seeing Various encounters between frankly, black men and police officers. I just made a conscious decision. I was never leaving home without identification, specifically my driver's license after that.

• 12:17Scott Galloway?

  When you think about, so you've lived this, I don't know, called privileged life, but you've had this crazy trajectory. You're an ambitious guy and you've done, I mean, you're sort of something out of central casting for the American success story. Where do you think you've seen it the most? Is it in random situations where you don't have the veneer of NYU or the badging of, you know, people don't know your degrees and your accomplishments and you're just pulled over by law enforcement? Is it more subtle things every day at work that these, I mean, I just think about it.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. It's a great question, Scott. And so for me, the heart-stopping moment is always, I mean, again, I have great respect for law enforcement officers, but I don't want to encounter a random law enforcement officer in an uncontrolled environment. I'll do anything I can to avoid that because that's, that's a moment of risk that you have very little control over.

• 13:13Scott Galloway?

  The, the, the bad news is, is that is a dangerous moment because you're dealing with someone who has a gun and the authority, the authority to, and our society so far seems to err on the side of poor judgment with the guy with the badge and the gun, right? And the good news is we should be able to tackle that. I mean, although there are 4,000 police districts around the nation, that is, it seems like a population that we should be able to educate and hold accountable. Why is it that so much of the negatives of systemic racism, so much of the fear that you feel are the things you have to educate your boys around? Why, why wouldn't we be able to fix that, I guess, is the question?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  We can't fix it. You're right, Scott. We have to want to fix it. And when I say we, it's got to be a collective. We have, there have to be enough people, enough voters, right? Who vote in judges and deputies and chiefs and, and other elected officials who have positions of power, particularly in law enforcement, who are actually going to make change. And people have to stand up and say, I'm not going to accept this anymore. And so unless people, you know, it's not enough to say I reject the status quo, but you could say anything you want. You can say I'm an ally. You can say, the question is, will you actually vote to allocate resources? Will you actually convict?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  People who are in violation of the law and violate people's civil rights. And really importantly, you know, will the people who occupy positions of power, national office in particular, the president in particular, use their bully pulpit to make it very clear this will not be tolerated.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  You know, what a president says really matters, as you know. Absent that, you won't get the change, which is why I say we will have to want it to change. And I think what it means right now, I think is why people are, why you're seeing, you know, not just blacks protesting, but I think it was in Portland, Maine yesterday, Portland, Oregon yesterday, probably the most diverse group of protesters they've ever seen. People are actually saying, okay, you know what? If we don't actually begin to act, this is not going to change.

• 15:26Scott Galloway?

  It feels like, just to put a pause there, it feels like this isn't so much a racial divide as it is a generational divide. And that is the way people feel about this, the largest indicator, I think, of how people feel about this is more age-based than race. It feels like people under the age of 30, at least someone I talked to, almost feel a civic obligation to protest. I've been struck by how passionate they are about this. And going back to this notion of voting, and this is another get off my line comment, I look at the people protesting, I look at the cohorts protesting, I think, okay, should I go protest? And I see, okay, this is, this is really inspiring because there's a lot of people getting involved, expressing their viewpoint, taking risks.

• 16:09Scott Galloway?

  And then I think, why is it young people don't vote in the same proportions as the, I mean, it strikes me, Peter, and tell me if you agree with this, voting has become too powerful that our elected representatives are overrunning our institutions, our courts, our laws, our constitution, that voting has almost too much power at this point, that our institutions as a liberal democracy have been overrun by our elected officials. It strikes me that, you know, vote for the prosecutor, vote for the representative, vote for the judge. Why do young people, do you think they've just given up? They've just said, okay, democracy doesn't work, I've got to take to the streets?

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great question. Clearly, young people don't vote as much as they need to, as they should. And because of that, as you, as you said, we have kind of a set of elected officials that's skewed towards the preferences of the older. And skewed towards a preferences, frankly, of those who have kind of the most to lose from actually having a more kind of a flattening of the playing field, if you will. Right. So again, go back to this point of this generational divide and people becoming increasingly worried about, you know, what will America be if we actually honor the constitution? What's going to happen if we actually allow all these black and brown people who are not Christians and so on, so forth, to actually have a vote?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I think in particular, I think there's an older generation, an older, wider, more Republican generation that is frightened of that. I think one of the important things that's to happen, you know, from this point forward, as we just think about November, for instance, is people need to vote. And frankly, we need as a country, figure out how to make it easier for people to vote and easy for people to vote without endangering their lives and their health. That's going to be critical. And then, you know, we'll have an election and I think this election is even more pivotal than people realize. Cause I really think the question on the table in this election, Scott, is is America going to be we the people? Or are we going to vote for an America that says, no, we can't be we the people?

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Because we the people today looks very different than we the people 200 some years ago. And therefore, you know what about the constitution? As Gilda Radner used to say, just kidding.

• 18:31Scott Galloway?

  Let's talk a little bit about, let's move to the corporate side. You serve on boards of directors from firms ranging from Nike to Citigroup.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 18:39Scott Galloway?

  And I see a lot of these ads and tell me if I'm being cynical, I feel as if we've gotten to the point where we've jumped the shark around statements from corporations saying, we stand with Black Lives Matter, that unless you're willing to make concrete actions, I mean, what?

• 18:55Scott Galloway?

  Let me back up. You're on the board of Nike. What would you tell, how would you tell them to respond to this? Not recognizing you can't, you're not speaking as a spokesperson for Nike, but someone who's a fiduciary for all stakeholders. How does Nike handle this in addition to compelling ads saying, you know, don't do that, or you know, just don't. When, and I'm just going to point this out here. Eight percent of Nike's VPs are African American. And, you know, there's a lot of great things going on at Nike, but they fall under a lot of criticism for this is an organization that makes a ton of money off of endorsed athletes, people of color, selling shoes into people of color. And senior management ranks doesn't reflect either of those things. What advice do you have for companies like Nike,

• 19:36Scott Galloway?

  who play a big role moving forward in addressing systemic racism?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  It's going to sound corny, but just do it. And, you know, one of the reasons why I'm, frankly, I'm going to sound biased here, but honestly, why I'm really proud to be associated with Nike is Nike takes criticism better than any organization I've ever seen. It really reflects sort of an athlete's mentality that way. In other words, coach tells you, you need to work on your left hand or your left foot, or whatever it is, you go do it to get better. And the criticism you just made of Nike is a conversation that we have at almost every, at almost every board meeting, which is, you know, what are we doing to improve our, improve the numbers? And I, you know, I was, I was a Black Employee Network event invited to participate in Nike earlier this year. And it was really moving to me because, you know,

• 20:24Speaker 01

  I had the chance to really sit with Black employees in Nike at various levels and just hear honestly from them, you know, what they're pleased with about what the company's doing and what the company works, needs to work, work harder at. And then one of the things that really strikes me, Scott, is, you know, and you pointed it out earlier, that's at odds right now with, just odd, is corporations, and not all corporations, but I think a lot of corporations are actually put, they're not where they need to be. But they're certainly ahead of our federal government in terms of actually understanding the importance of diversity, not as a nice to have, but as a must have, because they know that that affects their performance. And so we find ourselves in a strange situation where I think

• 21:08Speaker 01

  actually a lot of corporations are actually, you know, ahead of the government, because it used to be that the government, their federal government had to push. Whether it be through affirmative action or other means to get companies to actually do the do the right thing. And just another point, you know, that I think we're because you we pointed out early, the importance of this new generation, you know, you see it and I see we both teach in at NYU, this generation of students, of business school students, they want to work for organizations that are authentic. And so one of the things that I'm seeing in the boardroom conversations that I'm a part of is the realization that if we don't behave authentically, and not just talk at length, but actually behave authentically by getting our numbers to change,

• 21:50Speaker 01

  making sure that we're actually really listening to our employees, we won't be able to get those top students coming out of school because they'll go they'll go elsewhere.

• 21:58Scott Galloway?

  So I want to switch gears for a second, Peter. I think of you someone I admire you because you're a professional success, but I'm you're a role model for me because of your personal success, married for a long time, four kids. I know that you're a man of faith and you just seem very comfortable in your own skin, for lack of a better term. We, for some reason, this podcast, it skews very young and it skews very male. What advice would you give to a man who wants to be a better husband, a man who wants to be a better father, and in general, like, you know, wants to be a better man? What piece of advice can you give to the young men out there after having had, you know, what from all exterior measures, looks like a very

• 22:41Scott Galloway?

  successful partnership with your wife, four kids who are thriving? What advice do you have for young men?

• 22:47Speaker 01

  First of all, I love the question, Scott. Thank you for that. I would say a couple of things. I would say, number one, learn to listen, learn to really listen. I think men have this desire or this need to somehow feel so they're powerful and in control. And I think it often gets in the way of being able to really hear what another person's saying to you. And the reason why listening is so important, because if you think about how to be a better husband, for instance, communication is at the heart of a good marriage. And if you don't listen to your wife, or your girlfriend, or your spouse, or your significant other, how are you going to communicate with them? And I think that men are sometimes so drawn to this image of like,

• 23:32Speaker 01

  the alpha guy is the guy who always knows what to say, or always is in charge. But if you actually really wanna be a leader and get people to follow you, whether that be your family or organization, then you gotta listen to those people. So I'd say number one, you gotta learn to listen, learn to really listen. And number two, and then maybe, you know, maybe one A, because I think it's equally important. And very importantly, I learned this lesson from my mother. Learn to say, I'm sorry. I can't tell you how many times in my life, whether it's critical, it was million dollar gifts or multimillion dollar gifts, we're trying to work through a difficult dispute.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  If you as a man can say to the person across from you, in particular, if the other person, the person across from you is a man, say, you know what? I'm sorry, my mistake, my bad. It changes the dynamic of the conversation. If you do, if you do those things, you learn to say, if you listen, learn to say I'm sorry and own your mistakes and make changes, people will run through fire for you.

• 24:36Scott Galloway?

  Peter Henry is a professor and dean emeritus of the NYU Stern School of Business, economist and author of Turnaround: Third World Lessons for First World Growth. He joins us from New York. Stay well, Peter. It's great to, it's great to catch up with you.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  It's great to be with you, Scott.

• 24:50Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 24:53Scott Galloway?

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• 26:10Scott Galloway?

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• 27:25Scott Galloway?

  Okay, a quick algebra of happiness today. I think one of the keys to being a successful parent, a good friend, a productive member of a family unit, a good manager, a good leader, a good officer of the law, and a good protester, is knowing when to de-escalate the situation. And that is not giving into your fast thinking. We are tribal. We don't trust people innately who don't look like us, and we perceive threats, especially among people who are in a different uniform than us or have a different skin color than us. And if we give into our fast thinking and become tribal and primal, things can escalate fast. And the ability to de-escalate and call on our slow thinking,

• 28:06Scott Galloway?

  according to Kahneman, is key to our evolution as a species and one of our superpowers. And I don't care if you're in a meeting and people start arguing for the wrong reasons, or if you find yourself in an argument with your partner or your spouse. The ability to be the bigger person and de-escalate the situation is a skill set. I wish I had learned at an earlier age, but I think we need a lot of that now. Unfortunately, the person who should have the greatest skill set at being able to turn down the temperature should be the President of the United States. It is largely, if you think about it, the most important role in the world and the one role, the one role where you'd really hope that this person brings an ability to dial the temperature down around all the burners or different burners around the world.

• 28:50Scott Galloway?

  And the fact that we don't have that makes the world a much less safer place. So think about your own ability in any situation to bring forgiveness and grace and call on your slow thinking and develop the ability to de-escalate, to turn the temperature down. Our producers are Caroline Shageran and Drew Burrows. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next week with another episode of the Prof G Show from Section 4 and the Westwood One Podcast Network.