Barry Williams (The Brady Bunch) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with TV icon Barry Williams in the living room of the Brady Bunch house for a funny, nostalgic, and surprisingly emotional conversation. From becoming Greg Brady at just 14 years old to navigating child stardom, Broadway, syndication fame, and decades of public fascination. The two explore why The Brady Bunch continues to resonate across generations, how Gen X embraced the show through endless reruns, and why its idealized vision of family life struck such a powerful chord with kids growing up in fractured homes. Barry also shares stories about working with Bob Fosse on Pippin, surviving the infamous “Cousin Oliver” era, and eventually making peace with being called “Greg” for the rest of his life. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  When I was like 10, 10 years old, I marched into the kitchen after they'd been keeping me away from it. And I said, "Mom, Dad, you are standing in the way of my destiny."

• 0:42Speaker 01

  If you like people, it's terrific.

• 0:44Billy Corgan?

  Of course, The Brady Bunch as an American institution has endured on so many different levels.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  The point of what the show is and what the show is truly about is how to get along. How does that work?

• 0:56Billy Corgan?

  And I remember watching, thinking, "I wish that was my family."

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00Billy Corgan?

  You guys represented some sense of family that we certainly didn't have.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  That's just something you can't act. That's just something you can't make it up. You can't write it. It's there, not there. And we had that.

• 1:12Billy Corgan?

  Is there any pearl of wisdom that you can share?

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Get on the ride, stay on the ride, love the ride. It's the only one we get.

• 1:20Billy Corgan?

  Barry Williams, so nice to see you. Here we are in the Brady House.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  So nice to be here. It's kind of like welcome home. Yes, some people ask, you know, if I ever left.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  And here we are.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  We're going to get to the leaving and coming home part.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Very glad to welcome you here.

• 1:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, thank you. And thank you for arranging this. This is really cool. It's a cool thing for our show.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:41Billy Corgan?

  Have you ever heard of this term? I can never say it correctly. Simulacra. Do you know that term?

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Simulacra?

• 1:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  It sounds like it simulates lacra.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  Cut. What the concept of simulacra is, I first heard about it in science fiction. It's the, it's the idea, it's a copy for which there is no original. And the example I always use is like, if you've ever been to a 50s style diner, it's the, it's the idealized version of a 50s diner. But it never really existed in the way that you, like there's Denny's that have-

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:21Billy Corgan?

  Right. So it's, so it's the idea of like, it's an impressionistic vision of what it would have been like to be in a 50s diner, but that-

• 2:27Speaker 01

  It's not like the Chrysler Building, which is authentic in that art deco kind of style.

• 2:33Billy Corgan?

  And so in a way, this is a simulacra because it is an imitation and there is an original, but it's not, the, the original never really existed as a television.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Exactly right. And I was gonna, I was gonna make that point as the, the difference being that that set never, ever existed as a house. So this becomes its own, unique and original sort of-

• 2:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Structure.

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  It's crazy because it strikes me as particularly American that here we have a home that everybody knew the outside because of the television show. But now it's been built up on the inside to actually represent the original TV set. And you've had a big hand in it and Christopher from-

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Christopher Knight, all of us did, all of us participated.

• 3:16Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  All six kids, which is remarkable. We're all still active and around and you might even say camera ready. Which is kind of nice and still good friends.

• 3:27Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing. We'll get to that too.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  And may I just say about the house too?

• 3:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, please, yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  The biggest difference for us, when I come in, because it feels comfortable, but it has a ceiling. And we never had a ceiling-

• 3:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  On the soundstage. So that makes it feel kind of, you know, contained in a different way.

• 3:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I know because you were involved and thank you, you gave us a little tour before we started.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  Do you find yourself sort of comparing your memory of the set versus, and I know you said they blew up photos to, to get it close, but like you said, this has two less stairs and do you find yourself almost phasing between memory, like the, what you remember and then this is a real place? But it was a real place. It was just a set.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Right. The experience, it just, I absorb the experience and it's a lifetime.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Growing.

• 4:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Changing, seeing, being, and you come into this, it's like, wow, it's a crash of memories and and experiences at different stages and these really vulnerable stages. We started this series, I was 14 years old and we finished and it went off the air when I had just turned 20. So all those teenage years and then Susan Olson, Cindy, we started when she was seven. She's 12. I mean, big stages of our lives and this represents.

• 4:58Billy Corgan?

  Well, plus there's the fascination and of course, the Brady Bunch as a, as a American institution has endured on so many different levels, you know, like the word we, we use these days is meta. You know, it becomes a microcosm of

• 5:14Billy Corgan?

  broken families, creating new families with, you know, parents from divorces. And that was always the subtext of the show. So in a, in a way, and here we are, we're still examining the phenomenon of the show so many years later, and you've had the interpersonal experience of being in the show, out of the show. And in many ways, you're kind of back in the show, but you're also in charge of what happens with that narrative.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yes, a bit, a bit.

• 5:41Billy Corgan?

  Can I, can I ask, sorry, because I'm fascinated by that. How much control do you feel you have of that narrative? Because obviously somebody owns the Brady Bunch intellectual property. When I talked to Mickey Dolan, he was like, every time I go out and tour, I have to, you know, I have to still pay whoever Screen Gems, to use the monkey's name. You know, like how much authorship do you feel you have over the, over the story?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  A wide, vast amount of it. They had, our studio, Sherwood Schwartz, the copyrights, all of that. It's clear what we own and don't own. I don't own the character. I don't own the character name. I own my participation in the show. I don't know, I don't own the brand. Brady Bunch, but I can use it to, oh, you know, I can use it to market if I, if I want to. Barry Williams of the, in the star of whatever. So, and with the house, this has just become a national historical landmark, which gives it a kind of a, both a validation and a relevance.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  And it's going to stay this way. So, you know, we're working to look how we can make it more accessible to people. And we're using it to, for, to benefit charities and raise money for charities. And our custodian, Tina Trahan, has been very, very helpful and oriented toward that. So we're trying to continue that kind of brand.

• 7:12Billy Corgan?

  And for viewers who wouldn't understand, this is an actual house on an actual sort of, you know, LA suburban street. Like it's, we're not on some movie set somewhere. This is like a real home now.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  It's the, it's the facade. It's the house that we saw.

• 7:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So that's even crazier. You're trying to get into meta politics. The other thing I thought of, and I'm sorry to get too spiritual this early, but, and I can, I can never say this word properly. A koan. Do you know what a koan is?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:39Billy Corgan?

  It's kind of, I think it's a Buddhist concept. The most famous one is what is the sound of one hand clapping? Not much.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Let's try it.

• 7:49Billy Corgan?

  It's, you know, they're these, they're, they're unsolvable parables, I think would be the idea. And I think the Brady phenomenon is, is a koan in its own way. It's an unsolvable parable because, if you went back to, it was Sherwood Schwartz, right? It was the, so if you went back in a time machine and you at 14 years old, and you sat, you guys down and said, listen, you know, literally, you know, 50 something years from now, people are still going to be fascinated. There's going to be a real Brady house. There'll have been various revivals. There'll still be a high level of interest in the, in the stars of the show. Books, you know, you see what I'm, yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would have just laughed.

• 8:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Would have blown your mind. You would have been like, there's how? And by the way, there was no. There was certainly precedence for nostalgia in American culture. You know, Dick Cavett famously would bring out Gloria Swanson and Betty Davis. And they would talk about old MGM Irving Thalberg and all that stuff. So it seems to me that you had at least had a relationship with, okay, well, that's possible that at some point, if this series is successful, we'll be in that same sort of thing. People are going to want to talk to us. But no, this is a phenomenon and it really gets into generational politics. People are still very interested in your personal lives, you know, beyond just like, let's call it the tabloid aspect of it.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  It's a very different kind of nostalgia because when you're just referring to people that did things at a period when the audience grew up or could associate with the movies or whatever they were doing. In this case, they're actually seeing through syndication the shows and creating their own relationship with the programming in multi-generations.

• 9:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Is there a common bond that you've seen from people, why they bonded with the show so intently, please?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there are a couple. Circling back to what you were saying about, you know, blended family, which had never been done, you know, on television. And they brought us together. But the point of Sherwood Schwartz, our creator, the point of what the show is and what the show is truly about is how to get along. How does that work? And especially when you've got different families, you've got boys and girls, sisters in the competitions and all of that. And how with this group do we all get along?

• 10:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  And that is one of the things that people resonate with and look and see inside the show.

• 10:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  There is a relatability to the characters, oldest, youngest, boy, girl, sister, jealousy, all of that kind of thing. Also, I don't, your family.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  You're growing up. There's a comparison. This is a model of a functional family.

• 10:37Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  What would happen if it worked?

• 10:39Billy Corgan?

  To interject myself in this, I used to watch, because we, of course, I was born in 67, so I mostly saw the reruns, at least that's what I remember. And I remember watching, thinking, I wish that was my family.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:53Billy Corgan?

  Because I didn't have any of that behind me.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  And there weren't many models of what a family would look like. So that's a nice thing to go ahead and have a vision of, or see, oh, okay. And there are comparisons and a contrast. And of course, you could take that both ways. There's a good part of that, and you can also go, and this, what I'm into sucks.

• 11:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Billy Corgan?

  I saw, I do, I use a certain amount of, you know, AI to do my research, because I can ask specific questions and dive down deep. And AI gave me basically a summation of your life. And I wrote it down because I thought it was interesting. So this is an-

• 11:36Speaker 01

  It'd be interesting for me.

• 11:37Billy Corgan?

  This is an-

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I haven't done this yet. I haven't died yet, have I? This is something that's gonna be read-

• 11:42Billy Corgan?

  Maybe we're in Brady heaven.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yes, rest.

• 11:46Billy Corgan?

  I'm with you in Brady heaven. The quote was, "William's path shows how child stars can evolve through theater grit." I'll start again. "William's path shows how child stars can evolve through theater grit, self-aware nostalgia, and ongoing creativity into a varied career of nearly six decades, or you're about six decades at this point." I thought that was interesting.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It is interesting. And I could have written that. That's very true. The whole trick in terms of career has been, is recreating.

• 12:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  You know, recreating and diversifying.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  And so what I did was I diversified mediums. And I came from television. I thought that would probably take me right into motion pictures. That was absent. I knew I wanted to have music. I wanted to have comedy and, and, uh, stage work. And that's the first thing I did after the Brady Bunch was to head to New York. And audition for Pippin.

• 12:49Billy Corgan?

  Right. Seventy four, it's in there.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  What a lot of people don't know is the person who auditioned me. And the person who actually I won the job from, and that was Bob Fosse.

• 13:00Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Bob was, was there any?

• 13:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay, wait. What did he think of your dancing?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't have to do a lot of dancing.

• 13:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Uh, that was left to the leading player. What I had to do was a lot of movement and choreography. So steps and in time and that kind of thing. And he gave me the greatest piece of direction. The most relatable piece of direction I have ever been given. In that audition. And there's a song called Corner of the Sky that we were using to audition with, you know, rivers belong where they can ramble, eagles belong where they can fly. And the choreographer was arms out, right? And so Bob Fosse, he was, who was in the middle of the house, dark house, just, just like you'd think. This is on the stage at the Imperial Theater.

• 13:45Billy Corgan?

  He's out there somewhere.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  On Broadway, right where it was, I was doing, I was auditioning for the tour. So that show was already in production with Johnny Rubenstein and Irene.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Uh, and, um, so he gets up and he comes down to the foot of the stage, which I understand was like, he'd never done before. And he says, uh, cigarette in his mouth, rolled up pack in his shirt sleeves. And he says, okay.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Kid, pretty good, pretty good.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  That part about the eagles when they fly?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  You're giving me a Cessna. And I want a seven forty seven.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Try to get. I got it, got it. Okay, I got it. The rivers belong where they can rip. Eagles belong where they can fly.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  And it was. And I got the job.

• 14:36Billy Corgan?

  There you go.

• 14:39Billy Corgan?

  Because we're talking about this, this, you know, this schism between reality and here we are in reality about something that was a fictional reality in the television show. I thought we could discuss a little bit your real family. Because so much energy has been spent on your not real family, which became your real family in a way.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  That is the one most people are familiar with.

• 15:01Billy Corgan?

  Yes. So can you talk a little bit about your real family?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yes. I was having a discussion about character and, you know, how I feel about the Greg Brady character. There was a difference because in my own family, I had a nuclear family and a wonderful middle-class upbringing. Dad went to the office, mom was a homemaker, two older brothers. So there are three of us and I'm the youngest.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  So I was the brunt of a lot and kind of like the, like Mikey, the crash test dummy. And so if there were things to be done that involved, involved danger and I was willing to do them to be included.

• 15:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  As the youngest, so I could try and fit in. So that was flipped when I became the eldest of five siblings. So I grew up, you know, in a, in a wonderful neighborhood, middle-class neighborhood. I could ride my bike to, to elementary school. I, we didn't lock the doors. We lived near the ocean and that was a big part of my growing up. It was stable.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Public school, routine, dinner every night, dinner around the table. And.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Surprisingly similar to the created world of The Brady Bunch. So unlike many, that transition or understanding the kind of the logic of the show was not a big adjustment for me, except it was cool that I now got to be the eldest.

• 16:44Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  And in taking a cue from where I had been, I became like the benevolent old brother, the reliable big brother. And, and kind of flipped that and, and of course the writers, you know, played all into that.

• 17:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  But it, but it did carry over into life.

• 17:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  We weren't just doing a television series. We, we recorded albums, five of them, and we toured. And so we're doing logistics and airports and, and, and fares and we're in Las Vegas and, and there are a lot of things around that and a lot of people to corral and there are probably only two people looking after him, two adults and then myself.

• 17:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  So those roles kind of would, would roll over into real life as well.

• 17:30Billy Corgan?

  What, what inspired you to get into the arts?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  This is, this is crazy. I was three years old, three and a half years old, going to nursery school and watching TV on Saturday mornings. And there was a cartoon lineup, but there was this one show on television every Saturday morning, and I loved this show called Fury. About a horse.

• 17:53Billy Corgan?

  I don't know that one.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Big horse. Fury was a horse that nobody could ride. Peter Graves was the patriarch and he adopted this kid. The only person to ride this horse was his son. And he could, he could get on. So I said, I want to be an actor and a cowboy.

• 18:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  And I, well, it turns out that Peter Graves' daughter was going to nursery school with me and we were pals. And then I found out her dad was this man that I watched. So I asked him, Mr. Graves, kind of, how do you get to be an actor? And he said,

• 18:27Billy Corgan?

  What a voice too.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Almost dismissed it, but he just said, I thought about it and that's exactly what I did. I went home and I kept thinking about it. My parents wanted to keep me away from it. My dad was not terribly encouraging, although ultimately supporting. Um, Hollywood types, you know.

• 18:44Billy Corgan?

  So you didn't have stage parents? That was totally your idea?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Totally. And then at one point, uh, and when I was like 10, 10 years old, I marched into the kitchen after they've been keeping me away from it. And I said, Mom, Dad, you are standing in the way of my destiny.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  And they said, okay. Dad said, uh, you know, you want to do this? Go study it. Don't, you know, don't just go on a set not knowing what you're doing. So that's what I did. I studied acting with other child actors. That were busy at the time. I did private lessons. I did group lessons, scene study and got an agent.

• 19:24Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And then, um, and that agent, uh, we sometimes wonder if they needed, she needed somebody with brown hair and blue eyes. And or, uh, you know, really liked the reading and she started sending me out and I started working and I worked and worked.

• 19:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  And built it, built a career. But yeah, I was leading that charge. I, I did not have a typical stage parent.

• 19:46Billy Corgan?

  So interesting.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Saved me, I think. Cause I've seen the other side of that.

• 19:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So of course, you know, the, the, the show, the Brady show has been

• 19:56Billy Corgan?

  way explored. So I try not to go into the same, you know, 50 questions that you've been asked repeatedly. But I'm, because I asked you about your real family and now that you can reflect on what became your TV family, like you said, you, you're, the kids are all still in some form of relationship. You still work together. You still.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 20:13Billy Corgan?

  And I know, I know from talking to Susan Olson, cause she was on the show as well, that, you know, there's, there's, there's bonding there. That's almost becomes like sister brother. It really is, is a literal thing. It becomes a different type of family.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  With the people we knew, trusted, could rely, depend on and relate to. We, we were going through a common experience at different stages of our lives. But a common experience and that created a very, very, very strong bond.

• 20:38Billy Corgan?

  But when you look back now, sort of like, you know, you could take it however you want, but if you look back at, at, you know, your, your TV parents and then obviously they. The other kids, I mean, can you sort of describe, I guess, the familial affiliation that you have looking back? Does that make sense? It's like, can you sum up your TV family, maybe in a nutshell? Because, because it's, it's, the way, the analogy I went to, and it's unfair, but, you know, when I started in my band when I was 20 with the other three people, never in a million years did I imagine that I'd still be thinking about them, arguing about them, arguing with them. You know, it becomes an inherited type of family.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Decades later.

• 21:20Billy Corgan?

  And now, you, now, when you look back, you have, you can see the sort of the foundational relationships sort of forming even before you knew what was happening.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 21:28Billy Corgan?

  Right? So I'm just asking you to kind of sum up your, your feeling on that, because you inherited this TV family, which we're still talking about.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:37Billy Corgan?

  I mean, again, you can take it however you want. I've just.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Well, the word I have, and you'll hear this probably a lot today, is gratitude for that. It's been, it was, it expanded, you know, the, the family, it gave us commonality, relatability. And then to have these people, these same people, familiar people, all through our lives.

• 21:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  At the major signposts, marriages, sometimes going through divorces.

• 22:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  The birth of children and families. So I'm, I'm really grateful to have that with, with a group that I have shared virtually my entire life.

• 22:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think the term that comes to mind is peak experience, right? You, like, being in a band, you have these peak experiences that only, only the four of us understand. And even when the relationships fall apart, there's an understanding, like, you went through this very intense thing. You see it oftentimes, and it's not the best analogy, we see people who are in war together.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:33Billy Corgan?

  They, they have some, they have some connection that even if they don't get along.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, the trench.

• 22:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. And so, obviously, all respect to our veterans, we're not trying to compare ourselves to them. But, but, but it's, it's something about the, I guess, the point is, the, the point of connection is something about the intensity of the experience.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Imagine, I mean, the numbers we throw around today and the numbers we were talking about then.

• 22:58Billy Corgan?

  At its, at its peak, how many viewers were watching?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Do you remember? Well, 40 million, 45 million. I mean, that's a week. So.

• 23:07Billy Corgan?

  Were you recognized? Exactly. You're walking down the street.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:10Billy Corgan?

  You're still recognized. I've hung out with you personally a few times and it's like, people see you. I mean, there's no way they don't see you.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Well, no. And that's, and that's both because of the reruns and that foundation and also all the new things.

• 23:22Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  On forward. But the reason it was so impactful is because we went from being who we were in our lives. And then doing something that we all enjoyed doing, but was professional and, you know, and was focused and concentrated. And then went out into public and our lives were changed dramatically by that because, and, and that's a very profound experience to assimilate with growing up and being a teenager and, and going through some of that awkwardness and being, you know, kind of observed and scrutinized. And that becomes a very impactful period, like you were saying.

• 24:07Billy Corgan?

  I, I don't want to really talk much about the show. We'll talk more about the, the effect of the show. But I do have to complain about Cousin Oliver because who's, the actor's name is Robbie Rist.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Robbie Rist.

• 24:22Billy Corgan?

  Like most people, and I, I don't want to bore you with my version of memories of the show, but I just remember hating Cousin Oliver. And, and the only reason I bring it up to you and try to make you laugh a little bit is because it was the last six episodes, I guess, he was on the last six episodes. They brought him in kind of a stunt booking.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:41Billy Corgan?

  Try to pop some ratings. Kind of similar what they did with, it was, remember like Scooby Doo, they brought in, it was like they brought in the mini doo.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:51Billy Corgan?

  I can't remember. It was like Scrappy Doo.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. They brought in Scrappy Doo because it was going to get canceled. And then Scrappy Doo had been an original character, so they brought him back, I think, for the third season and they got some ratings boost. So I think they were thinking Cousin Oliver was gonna somehow.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of people will compare that to another show, Happy Days.

• 25:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  When the Fonz, they felt they needed a burst and they put big, big skis on and behind a boat.

• 25:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, jumping the shark.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Had to jump the shark. And then the show went off the air. And Robbie did six shows and the show went off the air. So they made that compare. Now, just as a disclaimer right in the front, Robbie Rist, I consider a friend of mine. I like him. I think he was hysterical on the show. He did a great job. He's a good actor. He's, he's, he's a good musician and he's very active and busy. He was completely wrong for our show.

• 25:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  And it was exactly what you're saying. It was a kind of a stunt. And what that was is, in simple terms, I think the writers had run out of ideas.

• 25:48Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Or they weren't gonna let the kids grow up. They, you know, I should have been going off to college.

• 25:53Billy Corgan?

  Kind of like The Simpsons where the kids never grow up, right?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Right. And so to, but we were all grown up. So they brought in somebody young to tag along with Cindy and with Bobby.

• 26:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  But the humor and the, the way they wrote for them was not Brady like at all. I mean, they're giving him ta-da-da. They're giving him, you know, one, two, three punchlines.

• 26:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he was kind of schmaltzy.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  And it didn't, it didn't, it didn't fit in at all. It was kind of, so it was not well received. And he kind of had to suffer the blood out of it.

• 26:23Billy Corgan?

  I remember.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  But good guy, good guy.

• 26:25Billy Corgan?

  God bless him. Um, so March 8th, 1974 was the last Brady show. Um, and I wanted to talk-

• 26:33Speaker 01

  March 8th was the last filming, right? I mean, the last airing of the original.

• 26:37Billy Corgan?

  I just, I just-

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Went off the air and in, in 74 in September.

• 26:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Right. So, so point being is, is, you know, that becomes a date where your life changes, but in ways that you couldn't have even anticipated at, at the moment. I like to sort of note those moments, you know what I mean? Um, when I talked to Susan, you know, we, we talked about, you know, and she was what, 12 years old when the show went off the air. And it's like-

• 27:03Speaker 01

  A very mature 12 years old though.

• 27:06Billy Corgan?

  By then, she's still a very mature, whatever she is now.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:10Billy Corgan?

  But I, I wanted to ask you, um, because I'm sure you've heard from people of, of, of my generation, you know, Gen X in particular, because it was really Gen X that brought the Brady- Bunch franchise back. If you remember, there was the Brady Bunch play that started in Chicago.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. The real live Brady Bunch.

• 27:28Billy Corgan?

  I knew all those people. They, I literally worked in a record store two doors down. And so I was there at the genesis of that. And that seemed to re kickstart the phenomenon and the movie followed and all that. So God bless them.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Saturday Night Live.

• 27:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but it seems like, and maybe I'm projecting because I'm Gen X, but it seems Gen X has such a particular relationship. And again, repeating myself, but I think it's because we were watching the reruns, coming home from school in those formative years, eight years old, 12 years old, and watching this family sort of work out their problems on TV. And in my case, I was like, wow, I wish someone would listen to me. I'm just curious for your reflection now that we can both look back on it. On, on, because it's a different generation. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how Gen X, because you know, we were oftentimes called the latchkey generation. Because we were literally the kids that came home to an empty house. And, you know, we were in a basement and in my case, we, all my memories of watching your show were in the basement.

• 28:24Billy Corgan?

  Freezing cold and there's, there's people in a warm, beautiful house, just like this, having a great time.

• 28:31Billy Corgan?

  Crazy stuff happens, but you know, everybody gets along at the end and, you know. You know, you had a maid, you know, we didn't have a maid and.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Everybody who has six kids should have an Alice.

• 28:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless. I'm, I just, I wonder if you have any reflections on that generation because I'm sure you must have, you've must have heard 10,000 versions of what I just said. Do you know what I mean? That you guys represented some sense of family that we certainly didn't have.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  I think that, Billy, that goes back to relatability. And the, you know, the morality of the show and the lessons, they were light, but they're also timeless. And they were, they were, you know, common sense kind of morality.

• 29:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's not, it's not a zen, not a zen show. It's just.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  But, you know, things like using exact words or being honest or authentic, being able to go to dad. And have him listen to you.

• 29:22Billy Corgan?

  We didn't have that.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  No, right. And I think that those morals and to kind of wrap it up at the end of the episode and start another adventure on the next week, those kinds of things are safe.

• 29:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  And they can be internalized in a way that doesn't go away because it's reinforced. And if that's not going on in your life, want it to happen in your life.

• 29:48Billy Corgan?

  Do you feel, I mean, this might be a stretch, but is, there must have been those moments where people come up, almost they want to talk to you about.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Oh, not that. They want to invite me to dinner. They consider, literally consider me part of their family.

• 30:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Now, I'll give you a couple of examples. Now, I've moved from Los Angeles, where I grew up, and here in Hollywood. And I moved to a small little community in middle America, in Missouri, Branson, Missouri. I go into a cafe there, sit down to have a couple of scrambled eggs and toast and a cup of coffee, and people will sit down next to me and start a conversation because.

• 30:27Billy Corgan?

  They know you.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  They think they know.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And they pick right up in the middle. Oh, God. So great seeing you. You know, you have plans today. Have you seen that show down the street? And they'll just pick it up in a conversation. So there's that kind of familiarity. Now, as you know now, there's a privilege in that.

• 30:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  If you have a good attitude about it.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Because it's like having friends everywhere you go. If you like people, it's terrific.

• 30:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  So you come in and you start at a completely different level with someone. And it's easier to kind of cut through. And the Brady thing only lasts so long. And then you're, you know, talking.

• 31:07Billy Corgan?

  Oh, you're real people.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean, I was, I mean, this is a compliment. I hope you take it as a compliment. The first time we met, we went to dinner with a mutual friend of ours. And. I remember we were walking down the street because we were going to a concert or something and and literally somebody called out, hey Greg. You know what I mean?

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:25Billy Corgan?

  And and I remember thinking like, because if that was me, I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna kill you. And you were so graceful, you were so kind about it.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:32Billy Corgan?

  And I thought, I thought, yeah, I was so impressed that you had sort of made peace with the whole thing.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that wasn't always the case.

• 31:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  That was not always the case. I think for, in the beginning, being called Greg made me feel like they didn't know me and that somehow it was a threat to my identity.

• 31:49Billy Corgan?

  Did it feel like a diminishment in a way?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  It did.

• 31:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  It, it, well, a non acknowledgement as well.

• 31:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Because, you know, I mean, it's, it's nice to be recognized, but, you know, it is, after all, a character.

• 31:59Billy Corgan?

  I'm the rat in the cage guy. That's, that's what I get in airports, you know?

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:03Billy Corgan?

  Because I, my, my one song, you know? So like, you're the rat in the cage guy, right?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Right. But at some point, you know, I came to understand less about it being about me and more about what they're experiencing, what they're seeing and what their intention is. And it wasn't meant to be offensive. It wasn't meant to be, to disregard me. And so.

• 32:25Billy Corgan?

  At what, at what point did you reach this zen kind of understanding?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh, after several years on the table, I think, of, you know, examination and, you know, trying to work through and, and put these things together and assimilate everything. I was probably, you know, into my 30s.

• 32:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So maybe 10 years, 15 years after the.

• 32:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that sounds about right. That's a lot to process.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was. And now, you know, we, I don't want to jump.

• 32:59Billy Corgan?

  No, you, you talk about whatever you want to talk about.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Well, the, the interesting thing about fan relationship for me was I never knew really what the fan, what somebody who'd watch the show and embrace the show and had an experience with the show, what that really meant to them.

• 33:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Because I. I wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't a viewer of the show. I studied the shows sometimes. I looked at them, you know, from a directorial or show or, but I wasn't really looking at, you know, watching for entertainment.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  And so people that, that had really taken, taken, taken it in and it had meaning to, it was hard for me to make that jump.

• 33:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  My, my Brady mate, Brady bro, Christopher Knight and I embarked on a podcast called The Real Brady Bros. And it was episodic recap. So the challenge and the idea of this podcast is to do one episode a week, break it down, get into the minutia, give our perspectives. We would watch it, we'd take notes, we'd, we would exchange notes and then sit down and zoom together and do this audio podcast of each episode, where we were at the time, what happened, who the guest stars were, where they are now, all, all of this. But what we've discovered was the aspect of what viewers were getting and taking out of it.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Because we, you know, we were removed, were removed from it now. So we could watch it and be entertained by it and watch what the point of it was and what it was about. And it gave us such great insight to what people are relating to when we're face to face as fans. And it was very, very valuable for both of us. And kind of, you know, brought it, you know, in a full circle.

• 34:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. The only thing I think I could add to that is I feel like I've seen every Brady Bunch episode at least five to seven times, but that's because, because.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Well, just allow me just to be shocked. I did not, I, I did not know that, you know, I know.

• 35:05Billy Corgan?

  But I think that was, I don't, I think that was common for a lot of our generation because in that, in that period of syndication, Brady's was always on. I feel like it was always on like four. And because it must've drew viewers, it was like a prime get home from.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Get home from school, watch an episode, then do homework.

• 35:22Billy Corgan?

  Or in our case, I feel like they showed episodes back to back, usually two. Yeah. So I mean, I feel like I saw every one of those episodes. So it wasn't just, oh, that one episode. Like it was like imprinted in your brain, almost like a DNA thing where, you know, you really, well, God bless. That's what I'm saying. I think that's the intensity of that, that, that exchange. It's powerful. I think it's.

• 35:46Billy Corgan?

  Syndication sort of gave the show this other sort of,

• 35:50Billy Corgan?

  I don't even know how to explain it. It's like, you know, we've all had that experience where it's like, we don't totally understand a song the first time we hear it. And about the seventh time, we kind of get it and go, oh, okay.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 36:00Billy Corgan?

  It starts to feel it. Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Right. Well, exactly. You feel it. It becomes actualized inside.

• 36:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because it it becomes at some point less about, was that a good episode or a bad episode? It's like, oh, this is that episode. It's like, this is when that thing happens. You know, it sort of breaks down the helix of the thing anyway.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  And there's an arc between between the seasons as well. The innocence of the first season. And we literally were getting to know each other. The second and third seasons where the where the writers were really on their game. And then when when it began, like the fifth season, which I always thought was the best because I liked it the best. But as a show, I take the fourth season when we went to Hawaii, that that one.

• 36:40Billy Corgan?

  Everybody remembers Hawaii.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:43Billy Corgan?

  I'd be remiss not to talk a little bit about the Brady variety shows because I don't remember them at the time. And I talked with Susan about them and and they're such a microcosm of 70s culture and entertainment.

• 36:57Billy Corgan?

  I just jump in here because I just think it's um, it's so fascinating. Of course, Rip Taylor, Milton Berle, Vincent Price, Charo, Rich Little. I mean, that is like.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Farrah Fawcett, Tina Turner. I mean, Milton Berle, they're just everybody. I mean, it was an amazing experience. I I recommend going to YouTube immediately and seeing as many of these as you can.

• 37:19Billy Corgan?

  They're fast.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  It is fantastic.

• 37:20Billy Corgan?

  They're like, they're like, cool, fun, weird, strange.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  So over the top.

• 37:24Billy Corgan?

  Terrible. Like, it's all like this car crash of like, what is happening? Well, did you? Did you have a sense at the time of,

• 37:32Billy Corgan?

  because obviously, okay, the the series is not going to continue. And yet, here you are a couple of years later. You guys are still.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, three years later.

• 37:37Billy Corgan?

  Would you? I'm going to give my opinion to make you tell me if you agree or don't agree. It seems to me that in it, maybe that's the first indication that the audience doesn't want to let you guys go.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Does it make sense?

• 37:50Billy Corgan?

  It does.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  It does.

• 37:52Billy Corgan?

  Like, why are you doing variety?

• 37:53Speaker 01

  That's a very good question. Why were we doing?

• 37:56Billy Corgan?

  And they went their skits too, right? You guys would do-

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Old skits?

• 37:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, little like, kind of five minute, like Carol Burnett type skits and-

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Choreography and duets and popular music.

• 38:05Billy Corgan?

  You seem particularly to be invested in the variety show.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  I loved it.

• 38:09Billy Corgan?

  Well, shades of things to come, right?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Well, yes, and I was doing musical theater. I finished my Pippin tour by then and now I'm coming back. The first song I sang on that show was Corner of the Sky.

• 38:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, and then all these guest stars coming on because that was, you know, a genre of the day, you know, in the mid 70s. It's kind of, everybody had a variety show. Now, it was over the top and it was campy and it was silly and the costumes were completely overblown. I loved all of it.

• 38:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. If you'd never had success, which I obviously have, but you'd still have an interesting story to tell because you ran a lot of these apocryphal shows that are legendary shows, you know, Dragnet, Mission Impossible, Mod Squad. This is all pre Brady Bunch. But the one that jumped out to me was Gomer Pyle.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:59Billy Corgan?

  You got any good Gomer Pyle songs? I just loved Gomer Pyle.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  I got, I did three shows at Paramount. Mod Squad, Gomer Pyle, and That Girl.

• 39:09Billy Corgan?

  I don't remember That Girl.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  That Girl was Marlo Thomas.

• 39:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Danny's-

• 39:13Billy Corgan?

  I do know that show, yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Those were both done at Paramount. I can take you full circle.

• 39:17Billy Corgan?

  Please, yeah.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Because our director for the first six episodes of The Brady Bunch, John Rich, was doing the casting with Sherwood Schwartz. He directed both The Gomer Pyle and That Girl that I was in. So I was an autograph hound in The Gomer Pyle. We shot it at Paramount Studios where we filmed The Brady Bunch. So when it came around to casting, he knew me. That helped a lot.

• 39:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  The network was aware of me and so was the studio. So I think that, you know, it's these little things. That was a one day shoot with Jim Neighbors and Sergeant. And it was, it's fun and then it was over.

• 39:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  And then it led to other things. Now, just after I got to Brady Bunch, I want to circle back to when I made my decision to become an actor. Peter Graves, Fury, is now the star of Mission Impossible.

• 40:13Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Mr. Phelps.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  And I have an audition for that. I haven't started filming Brady yet. But I have an audition for Mission Impossible. And, and, and the mission was I was a young king and my uncle was evil and wanted to off me. And the mission was to get me to see that he was not, you know, didn't have my best interests in mind. And I got that job. And I got to work with all my favorite show with Peter Graves.

• 40:41Billy Corgan?

  That's.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  And that was full circle. Yeah, it was really cool.

• 40:47Billy Corgan?

  The, the, the transition to musical theater post Brady.

• 40:53Billy Corgan?

  It, it seems obvious because of your, your interests, but.

• 40:59Billy Corgan?

  Like you said, you hoped movies would be there, they weren't.

• 41:04Billy Corgan?

  Was there, was there?

• 41:07Billy Corgan?

  Was it that you didn't get the kind of TV jobs you were looking for? Or you were like, I, this is sort of more where my heart is like, what was the logic at that point?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  At that time, I knew studios, I knew filming and I wanted to be on stage. So I, I really actively pursued that.

• 41:21Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you explain the, the logic behind that at that point? Cause that's an interesting decision.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Well, it's a very different medium.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's such a different medium, such a different skillset.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  But you know, music was a very, very important part of what I was doing. And I loved the expression of it and I, I was working on it and learning it. And I was, uh, learning dance and movement. The Brady's, we all had choreography separated us from the Partridge Family.

• 41:48Billy Corgan?

  No competition.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And, and so it seemed pretty logical. Musicals seemed to be, and Florence Henderson was, you know, was a great inspiration.

• 41:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Because of Oklahoma.

• 42:02Billy Corgan?

  Oklahoma, yeah. She's fantastic in that too. I mean.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  And

• 42:06Billy Corgan?

  Very, very gifted person.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  And she was the one who actually said that this tour was gonna go out. So she led me to it was very helpful.

• 42:13Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  And, and, and allowing me to get inside to even compete for the show.

• 42:19Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  So.

• 42:21Billy Corgan?

  Did you face doubt because, you know, TV actor and here you come into.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:25Billy Corgan?

  That's your goal.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And nobody in New York was excited to see Mr. Hollywood walk in there. And, and, and they don't, you know, they don't give away jobs there either.

• 42:36Billy Corgan?

  Very.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  So I was, I was very glad that I was, you know, as prepared as I could be. There were several lessons I learned about theater etiquette on the road. And I should have been learning it earlier. But it was, it seemed like pretty natural. And then, you know, then it's a, the business is strange. That it's happens, things happen the way they happen. And I've found in retrospect, embrace, embrace the way it's going. So if I wasn't getting a job, then I would take another job. Or I would, I would be proactive wherever I could be. It's harder to be proactive landing a series, landing a movie, landing.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  It's, you know, you need reps to do that and meetings to happen and things like that. Auditioning for, or in theater, I was getting calls. You know, oh, well, we'd like to have you in this production. I did 85, I've done 85 different productions of theater. So I've a lot of experience in that. And I didn't have to audition as much. So they were coming more often. And that, so that became another reinvention.

• 43:44Billy Corgan?

  When did you feel, this is maybe too general question. But when did you feel like you kind of earned your stripe in the theater world? You know what I mean?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:53Billy Corgan?

  You walk through the door and obviously you got to get some auditions and stuff like that. But there's always going to be that skepticism. Is it, is it your name? And like, when did you feel like you felt like, okay, theater world embraced you for you?

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Well.

• 44:07Billy Corgan?

  Is that a fair question?

• 44:08Speaker 01

  It is a fair question, and I don't, I mean, I don't know that, I mean, I, mine was really a less at result and more at process.

• 44:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  So I, you know, I just kind of throw in, do the very best I could and, and, and, you know, be responsible and stay on top of it and, and, and deliver the best I could. Then everybody else makes up their own mind. In terms of being accepted, you know, I, I've not won a Tony. I've not been nominated for a Tony, so maybe I was never accepted. I don't know.

• 44:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Uh, I know I made a good living and I've been busy doing it and enjoyed every minute of it.

• 44:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Uh, so it seems to have been, I, you know, you get a sense of what you're doing. If you're doing a tour, two, three, four cities a week, every, every show is reviewed.

• 45:01Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  So, you know, you've got local.

• 45:04Billy Corgan?

  Are you, are you a review reader?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  If they're good. No, I've read them all. Um, and I, I, I didn't really, I don't know how much I learned from them because there's a lot of bias that goes into reviews. Uh, but you can get a general feel whether you're making, hitting the mark or not.

• 45:21Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  And I would listen to review, well, what are they getting out of it? What are they feeling about it? What, what's the production providing for them? Uh, not, you know, how I looked or, you know, or the notes I was hitting or the range of voice or, and not that kind of stuff, but, but what, you know, what, what were they taking from the production?

• 45:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  And that seemed to be generally very good, and I was generally name above title. So that made me feel like, okay, I've got a home here.

• 45:47Billy Corgan?

  Um, you've had a particularly interesting life and you've had a front seat to the American experience. You saw it in Hollywood.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:57Billy Corgan?

  You saw it on the road.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:59Billy Corgan?

  As a, as a theater actor and.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:01Billy Corgan?

  Performer, and then of course in Branson.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Branson.

• 46:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Loved Branson.

• 46:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but I'm, I'm just curious because you, you're uniquely positioned to sort of look at how America perceives a lot of things, celebrity and fame being one of them, but also sort of the American sort of.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  You know, Americans have a particular obsession. We're sitting in the Brady House, you know, some how many years later, you know what I mean?

• 46:26Billy Corgan?

  We are?

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right.

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  We are, we are. But, but you know, you know, a European mind might sort of look down their nose at the way we obsess over things. But I think we have a particular engine that is what I try to explain to people. Maybe you've had this experience because I tour all over the world with the band still. People are very critical of America. I'm not saying they haven't always been, but these last 15 years more so. And they almost want to ask me like, what's going on with your country? Like, is your country gone mad? And I think this, I think they come to a conclusion that we don't, we think we're, we're good or we're perfect. And I said, well, my, in my estimation, most Americans realize that

• 47:12Billy Corgan?

  America is an imperfect country. And they said, then why do you guys sort of swing your you know what's around the way that you do? And I said, because we believe in the American dream, which is different.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  True.

• 47:23Billy Corgan?

  And just the fact, and we're examples of the American dream. I mean, we came from basically nothing to build up an incredible life and then individual experiences. So what I'm after is, is, um, what, from your front row, well, you're not front row seat, you're on stage, but from your vantage point, what, what do you, what have you seen about the American sort of spirit that, that has impressed you or beguiled you? Or, or is that the root of your ability to relate to people? Because I think your, your, your artistic life has so much to do with people being able to connect with you, you know, and you're that way in person. I mean, it's just in your character, your being.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  What a terrific question.

• 48:07Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  And, uh, that one's never been asked.

• 48:12Billy Corgan?

  We need a little bell. Every time I ask a question, everyone asks a little bell.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  I think in many ways, we're products of our generation and what we, uh, what tools we're given to, to make, uh, our lives. I think, uh, we in America have more opportunity and more tools to work with that are available to us than pretty much anywhere.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Now, than anywhere. But it depends a lot on how that is, what we're being told. What, what are the conditions of the world at the time? The information that we're fed, and we are fed a lot of information and even more now when we're just completely overloaded with it. So, you know, you want an answer, any answer you want, you can find, right? So if that's guiding you. So I'm of a generation where it was roll up your sleeves, hard work, go to it, you know, stay, stay focused, do a good job, be responsible and, and don't, you know, don't just blow

• 49:24Speaker 01

  it all, you know, concern. And that was the way I was raised. That was what, that is less so now. I think it's easier, I, I think there are values there that are still, that are available. But I don't think that in generations now, that's really being reinforced a lot. I think there are different directions that people are going, and people want to experiment more with, well, maybe I can get by without working, you know? Maybe I can get by with just doing a startup. Maybe I can just go online and.

• 50:00Billy Corgan?

  Be an influencer, yeah.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is that?

• 50:03Billy Corgan?

  You know, well, it's just a nicer word for.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  I think. And, and, and even there, but you know, there are people, but there is a price to that. In terms of character, there's a price in terms of building blocks and making.

• 50:24Billy Corgan?

  Well, they're going to figure that out. You know what I mean? There's a lot of people from my generation with a lot of tattoos that are going to, at some point, going to sort of regret, regret all the tattoos.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  So, but in answering the question, that's what I'm seeing. There are a lot of, you know, a lot of places now where instead of, you know, rolling up your sleeves, instead of like showing up five minutes ahead of time, they are looking for oftentimes a way to skate by. And they may not feel that they have that same opportunity, but I think they do. But you've got to find it.

• 50:57Billy Corgan?

  Do you, this might be an intellectual leap, but do you see where young people? There's an, you know, you said it's generational. So I agree with that. And one thing that I see from my perspective as a Gen Xer is there was an earnestness, an earnestness about seventies culture that at the time annoyed me.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  I'll bet because a lot of that was not represented in the real world.

• 51:23Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  There was a lot of turmoil in the seventies.

• 51:25Billy Corgan?

  It felt inauthentic.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:26Billy Corgan?

  Now, looking back, I miss it. And what the reason I miss it is because even if it wasn't real, and for many people, of course, and we don't have to say who, we know who's been disadvantaged in this system that we grew up in.

• 51:43Billy Corgan?

  But the idealism at least kind of gives you like a point on the horizon.

• 51:49Billy Corgan?

  Right? So like I said, when I would watch The Brady Bunch, of course, I knew it was a TV show.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:54Billy Corgan?

  I knew you were all actors.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:55Billy Corgan?

  But I would find myself getting emotional because I was like, this is at least the way it's supposed to be. At least set like some.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  An ideal.

• 52:03Billy Corgan?

  An ideal and, and, and, and that earnestness at the time, not with you guys, but in a lot of other things. It's sort of graded against me because I was like, this is so not my experience, you know? Real life can't be like that. And I think that's where the Brady thing is unique. It's sort of right on the line of, of real and not real. But when you talk about the continued relationships, particularly amongst the kids, it was real. So maybe we were picking up on some deeper zeitgeist level that we were watching something real.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  There was an innocence to it, to the stories. But I think what you're describing is the underlying element that has made the show remain successful.

• 52:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  There was a chemistry.

• 52:48Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  And that's the something you can't fake. That's the something you can't act. That's the something you can't make it up. You can't write it.

• 52:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  It's there, not there.

• 52:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And we had that.

• 52:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  And still do.

• 53:00Billy Corgan?

  When you, when you wrote your book in 92, Growing Up Brady,

• 53:06Billy Corgan?

  was that your sort of coming out like, okay, I've, I've accepted that in my life, this is going to be a key, definitely thing. Did you, what was the reaction to that? Public statement? Does it make sense? You know what I mean?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 53:21Billy Corgan?

  Huge. Please elaborate, yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  First, understand that all this touring that I was talking about.

• 53:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  And by ninety-two, there'd been a lot of it. That's more than a decade, fifteen years of touring and crossing the country.

• 53:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Hotels, motels, buses and airplanes and things. So, uh, in each one of those cities, I was the guy who promoted the show that I was in for the night or two nights or the week.

• 53:47Billy Corgan?

  You go to the radio station and...

• 53:48Speaker 01

  The radio station, the television morning show, the afternoon talk show, the whatever was local, the newspaper, the thing. And that's, those are the questions, not, you know, "Hey, tell us about The Sound of Music," or "Tell us about, you know, Oklahoma or West Side Story." They want to know about the Brady Bunch. So I talked a lot about it. So that was, "Okay, it's book time." And I, I, I am proud of the book and it, and it hit a, hit a, uh, hit a nerve. And it was, became a national bestseller for months on New York Times list.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  And it, it really jump-started, uh, my, my really adult coming out.

• 54:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Correct, because people really understood what my point of view was about doing the show.

• 54:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Still had to learn about what their point of view was about seeing it.

• 54:44Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  But this was my point of view about doing it and growing up in it. And...

• 54:49Billy Corgan?

  What, what was it about that point of view that you thought, you think now resonated with people?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Um, a sense of humor, a sense of humor about it, about, about the things that, you know, the way we were presenting things and about the way they really were, the relationships that we had. You know, I had a crush on Florence Henderson. I, I, I had a crush on, on Maureen McCormick and, and...

• 55:11Billy Corgan?

  We all had a crush on Maureen.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Sure. And, yeah, we still do in our hearts. You know? Just take me back to eighteen.

• 55:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:24Billy Corgan?

  Because you've watched this thing happen for for most of your life, which is crazy to think about. And we've seen in recent times that the relationship of the public to fame and celebrity has just morphed into something I think that none of us could have anticipated. I'll throw out a recent example. David Gilmour of Pink Floyd's guitar just sold for $14 million.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  14 million?

• 55:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Jim Ursay of the Colts had bought it maybe 10 years before, something maybe for 4 million.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Okay, some people have too much money then.

• 55:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, but sure, but but what I'm saying is there seems to be something happening. The the the the intense interest in memorabilia. The intense interest in what really went on. You said you literally did a podcast with Christopher where you guys went through every episode.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:14Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? So you've watched this this morphing relationship to, and you had true celebrity and fame when you were a teenager. So it's not that you didn't experience it in a peak form in 1970, whatever. But I think, would you agree with me that the relationship to fame and maybe because of the internet, it's just turned into this other animal? And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it's like it's almost morphing to something that's I can't even find a precedent for.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very different.

• 56:47Billy Corgan?

  Like if we if we took your fame when you were 15 years old and we went back and looked at the fame of, you know, Jackie Coogan or Jackie Cooper or, you know, Mary Pickford. You know, there's there were antecedents generationally. But something about the last 15, 20 years, it must be the internet. It's changed the relationship to fame into something completely new. Can you speak on that?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  I can. There are a couple of things about it. One is the transparency. I mean, there are just hardly any secrets. You could find out anything about anybody, everything about anybody. And now the scrutiny. Is way intensified. The large majority of the people that are like quote famous now or influencer people now or or people or these the game shows, the travel shows, the, you know, the Housewives, the

• 57:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Reality. Reality. You know, they're not going to be able to sustain. You're not going to be watching these things in reruns over and over and over again, I don't think.

• 57:48Billy Corgan?

  There's a lot of talk even in the music business that that the stars of the 2000s or 2000s are not going to enjoy the same type of success that we're enjoying because the the the the fusion of focus. So in many ways, we're more famous and in many ways, those people are less famous, even though they might have bigger Instagram numbers, which is kind of a weird phenomenon.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  But I think there's a it is more of a temporary kind of phenomenon.

• 58:17Billy Corgan?

  But you think it maybe is connected to the fact that they're like, like I said, I I watched your show so many times, you know what I mean?

• 58:24Speaker 01

  It becomes ingrained.

• 58:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's like where maybe this the ephemeral aspect of this culture is is the sustain is going to be different. I don't know. I know we're poking around in in ambiguity here.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Well, I I think that the show, The Brady's, that was kind of woven into the fabric.

• 58:43Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  And I think that's kind of what you're

• 58:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, absolutely. It became just sit at the table and talk about the show.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that that kind of comes at us now by the internet or just this quick bite or this quick bite or from this scroll and that scroll and this little bit. I don't don't it doesn't have that opportunity

• 59:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  To really be to really be integrated.

• 59:07Billy Corgan?

  Let me ask a slightly different question. How do you because you've had fame for most of your life and your entire adult life? How do you view fame? Do you view it as a blessing, a curse, a mixed bag? Like, how do you how do you or celebrity? Take it however you want, but.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  I think if you want to be famous, own it. I love it. I think it's great. I like conducting my life that way.

• 59:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  I conduct it openly. It helps to like people, for sure, because they can be invasive. So, you know, you want to be able to be able to manage that.

• 59:43Billy Corgan?

  It is a skill.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  And it's, you know, for the people that really are really, really shy and that are famous and, you know, movie stars and things like that, I really feel sorry. Because it's gotta be really hard for them. But, look, you know, let's face it. I didn't become an actor. I didn't become a singer. I didn't become a performer to go unnoticed. Right? I mean, there are a million other things.

• 1:00:12Billy Corgan?

  You did well. You did well.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't, you know, and that creative urge is burning inside you. And then all this explodes. Well, that's part of it.

• 1:00:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  You know, this is part of what gives you that license to do it. So, you know, it's the old thing is, you know, panel the boat in the direction the river is flowing.

• 1:00:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:00:35Billy Corgan?

  One of our mutual friends said to ask you this, so I apologize if it's off.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Well, maybe I should know which one.

• 1:00:42Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know who I'm talking about. The one with the foghorn voice. He said, quote, "He's like Santa Claus. Everywhere he goes, he's like Santa Claus. He wants to give out presents." And basically, he was citing your benevolence with the public. And he said, "Ask him about being Santa Claus."

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:01:05Billy Corgan?

  So he said something along the lines of like, if people want you to say groovy or...

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:09Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  People usually don't put that, you know, they don't start directing me right away like, "Hey, would you sing 'Clowns Never Laughed Before'?" Don't you? Could you just give me a, "Hey there, groovy chick?" And then I'll go,

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  "Well, let's kind of recreate a..."

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  A fan, a fan meeting.

• 1:01:31Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  And so they'll, they'll come in to the space.

• 1:01:36Billy Corgan?

  Are you?

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, are you, are you? And, and, and you can see them putting that together. And you can see there's kind of that excitement, anticipation.

• 1:01:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, insecurity.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  And then it comes, or maybe it already has. And, and now they're going into their experience of when they were watching the show.

• 1:01:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  So they're transformed, literally transforming. So you have 40 year old woman, she's like now 17, right? That's when she watched the show. And, and, and you can, you can kind of see that. And now, and that becomes that kind of connection. And the heart light goes on, right? Because they're remembering when they're seeing it, at the time that they, they saw it. And that, that follows for each successive generation, you know, whenever they were watching.

• 1:02:20Billy Corgan?

  I bet, yeah.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  So that's the Santa Claus analogy. And the character that I was playing, who was Greg? Greg was, you know, a normal, you know, high school student who had these, this family and took care of them, listened to them, liked them, would argue with them, but it always turned out well, had their back. So that's, I, I become the big brother, the reliable.

• 1:02:43Billy Corgan?

  Big brother.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's the experience. I let them have that. It doesn't take long.

• 1:02:52Billy Corgan?

  If you don't mind, because when we went to dinner recently, you were talking about various Brady pitches through the years.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, there've been a few.

• 1:03:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, can you just throw, it was making me laugh, so I thought it'd be fun to share.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Okay, well, yeah, we've done a lot.

• 1:03:06Billy Corgan?

  This is, the show's been off the air for a while and somebody's got an idea. Let's bring the cast back to do.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so here, here are some of the ones you might be familiar with. So, you know, we had the cartoon show, we had the variety show, we had a very Brady Christmas. We had Brady brides when Marsha and Jan got married and then they drew, you know, lines down the house. And then we had, to keep on your own side, and so then we had the Brady's, which was the serious version of it. And in the nineties, we had the movies.

• 1:03:32Billy Corgan?

  I missed the serious one, yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, it was short-lived because you can't mess with that.

• 1:03:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Brady's are the Brady's, right? It's a brand, you've got, there's a lane there, you're driving your own lane.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  So, um, and then there were the, the, the movies, um, and books and plays and the, you know, real live Brady Bunch and there's a music. Okay. So there's a Brady Bunch musical.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  And there is, uh, the Brady Bunch goes to Washington.

• 1:04:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  There is the Brady Bunch goes to outer space.

• 1:04:04Billy Corgan?

  That's the one I want to see.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Me too. I've never seen it.

• 1:04:08Billy Corgan?

  I really want to see that.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  But there, you know.

• 1:04:10Billy Corgan?

  I'll, I'll produce that. If you want, if you need any money, I'm, I'm in.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:16Billy Corgan?

  I mean, think about it. In the internet age, Brady Bunch goes to space. It'd be huge.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Pretty cool. You know, we're, we're sending up.

• 1:04:22Billy Corgan?

  Because who could not watch it?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:24Billy Corgan?

  Quality, who knows, but.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:04:26Billy Corgan?

  We got, we got CGI now. Who knows?

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there was, uh, um, Brady Bunch. Yeah. The musical too. So.

• 1:04:32Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Um, so.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  By the way, I would, I wasn't a part of those and I, I, I believe they've been made and.

• 1:04:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I was never in that.

• 1:04:42Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I thought you were just talking about people pitches. I didn't know they actually made.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Some of them were made. I think Brady Bunch goes to Washington. People can, you know, run to their Google. And, but, uh, yeah, that was made, I think. I don't know. I do. Honestly, I don't know, but I know it was, it was pitched and.

• 1:04:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, I like Brady Bunch.

• 1:05:00Billy Corgan?

  So, uh, because I think it's important to, to connect the dots here. Talk, talk about your, and you say it however you want, but talk about your, your head of work, because I know you're so busy. So like, like looking down in, we're in 2026 as we're filming this. So like for the rest of this year, what's your, what's your, your head? Cause you're, you're always, you're always, you're out there, man.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, uh, let me just pick you up from the last six months and then, and then forward because there are things that are being talked about. I don't know, but you know, what, what's going to happen with them. Um, and we'll see, but I can, I can talk to you about what's been very recent and what, what's current. I, uh, I continue to work in musical theater. Uh, I, I did a straight play, a comedy, uh, in Kansas City.

• 1:05:43Billy Corgan?

  And according to our mutual friend, it was sold out like.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was a one.

• 1:05:49Billy Corgan?

  Huge success.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It called, it's called new theater in Kansas City and wonderful production, uh, people, all the shows they do.

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  Is this the empty nester play?

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, not the, yes, the empty nester play is called, uh.

• 1:06:02Billy Corgan?

  Where the kids leave and.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Come back.

• 1:06:03Billy Corgan?

  Hilarity ensues.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Come back. Right. And then immediately after that, I went to do a reality show in South Africa called, I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here.

• 1:06:15Billy Corgan?

  That sounds like a nightmare.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  It was fantastic.

• 1:06:18Billy Corgan?

  You loved it.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Talk about peak experiences, I'll run it down. Now, the deal is you've got these trials, they're eating trials. Mostly it's about, it's about facing your phobias.

• 1:06:28Billy Corgan?

  Are you eating bugs and stuff?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, and much, much, much worse.

• 1:06:32Billy Corgan?

  You're a stronger man than I.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Well, and you do what you gotta do. But heights, fear of heights, fear of being buried, reptiles, you know, in confined spaces, being blindfolded, you know, all these things to win food for the camp and all of this kind of a thing. This was a peak experience. It's in the jungle of Africa, outdoors, no internet, no cell phones, no distractions, no books, no journals, no watch. We didn't know time.

• 1:07:06Billy Corgan?

  No maid.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  We didn't know, shit, we had no oven. We cooked on, on coals, you know, we would keep, build the fire, did our own laundry, had to take out the, the, the, the, the dunny bucket every year. For a month. We're doing, and then in selection, we're being, going out and doing these, these trials, which, can we say cow urine and pig brain and things like that for?

• 1:07:32Billy Corgan?

  And it's a TV production, so there's probably, there's probably moments where you're sitting there for three hours where they're getting the cameras ready.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  And if you're not actually off, off doing that, you're back at camp doing, well, there are no distractions, so you're getting to know people.

• 1:07:44Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  And, and a very intense and, and deep level and a very short amount of time.

• 1:07:51Billy Corgan?

  Anybody else on the show with you that we wouldn't know?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  I don't, I was not aware. There were Australian influencers and comedians and some sports people, a great, great group of people, a couple of actors, but I just didn't happen to know their work. Bonded with them wonderfully and I liked all of them and I love Australia anyway.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  But this was a...

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  The life was, okay, what do you do when you're by yourself? And there's literally nothing to actually do or that you have to do. And you're in the middle of the animals. And we had lots of them. And we had people in the perimeter that were chasing, you know, ones that could be dangerous. We had cobras come into the, into the campsite where then they have to be. We were, we had a microphone and we were told if we see, you know, a snake, any kind of snake, much less a cobra, stop and say,

• 1:08:47Billy Corgan?

  Snake.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Snake, right? And don't move or back up. And then they come in and take them out. So that was life and we're waking up with the baboons and, and the monkeys that were there and the birds that were there. Fent and to be offline for all of that. Excellent.

• 1:09:05Billy Corgan?

  But how do you pitch this to your wife?

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Not easy. My wife, that was, that was a month of not speaking to her.

• 1:09:12Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Or anybody else outside. But the production would talk to her, let her know that I was okay and that kind of stuff. But I, but we didn't have any outside. But you know, what a reset. What a great reset.

• 1:09:24Billy Corgan?

  You're a strong man.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Oh, pig brain's not so bad once you get past the first couple of bites.

• 1:09:30Billy Corgan?

  I'm a vegan.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  It's, it's the glass of cow urine you have to walk out.

• 1:09:33Billy Corgan?

  I, I wonder if cow urine, if that's, that goes against the vegan lifestyle, right?

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  I don't think so because it's processed.

• 1:09:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you're, you're safe.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  You're good. I'll grab, I'll grab you some.

• 1:09:45Billy Corgan?

  I mean this in a, in a kind and respectful way. Because I'm, I've just turned 59 at the time we're taping this. And of course, like anybody else, you look forward to your, your life as you're getting older. And you think, how active am I going to be? What am I going to stay focused on? What's going to motivate me? So I thought to ask you, because you've been in the arts for so long, like what gets you out of bed? Like what gets you like, is it just work or is it just staying busy? Like what keeps you going?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Well,

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  I feel a lot less pressure on myself. I, I, I found ironically maybe that when I started saying no, I had a lot more things to say yes to, but there's choice.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  But I'm enthusiastic. I have a lot of energy and I, I, I love to work. I love to take on projects. I like, and I love where I live and getting up, I, I live on a lake and I have a lake boat, you know, like a pod tune, tri tune.

• 1:10:44Billy Corgan?

  The classic.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, to go out and be, and be in the water. That motivates me, you know, to go out and do and be active and involved. I have a great set of friends where I now live, more friends than I ever had, you know, in Los Angeles. Smaller community.

• 1:11:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Very close account on them.

• 1:11:02Billy Corgan?

  I'm not saying you're the mayor there, but you're close to the mayor over there at this point.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  No politics for me.

• 1:11:08Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know what I mean.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do know.

• 1:11:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. They certainly celebrate in Bramston, people who want to be there and.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Of course they do, because they're proud of it.

• 1:11:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Like when I grew up, we were proud of, I grew up in a little community called the Pacific Palisades. I was born in Santa Monica. I mean, and we celebrated that.

• 1:11:27Billy Corgan?

  What's the name in Bramston, the name of the family? They kind of do like a, it's a family show.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  The Haygood's.

• 1:11:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  The Haygood family.

• 1:11:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I, I've met them and they're so nice and I really enjoyed their show.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  I've been adopted. I'm, I'm, I'm the 11th Haygood.

• 1:11:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that. And they, they, they came to see me play when I was in the area. They're great people.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  And my, my, my best friends, my best friends.

• 1:11:48Billy Corgan?

  Please send them my regards. They're just wonderful people. Um.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  I, I think you just did, but.

• 1:11:55Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I will definitely.

• 1:11:56Billy Corgan?

  Coming from you, it means more.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:11:58Billy Corgan?

  I found this, uh, I found this clip, uh, you know, just poking around. As you can imagine, if I go digging on you on, on something like YouTube, most of it is just Brady Bunch, Brady Bunch, Brady Prince. So I was trying to find something that I could kind of hang my hat on that I, that felt personal to me. And this, this, I thought this was interesting. So I found a clip of you and Maureen singing, uh, on the Mike Douglas show. I think this would have been 1974 or somewhere around there, 77, can't remember. I think you would have been all 23 years old.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably about 77.

• 1:12:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Uh, and you sing a song by Roger Nichols and Paul Williams.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Paul Williams.

• 1:12:37Billy Corgan?

  Paul, I know a little bit. We've written some songs together. And so I love Paul as a writer and you, you sing a song called, I won't last a day without you.

• 1:12:46Billy Corgan?

  And what struck me about it

• 1:12:50Billy Corgan?

  is it's almost like three impressions at the same time because it's past, present and future. In the past, if I'd saw that on TV when I was a kid, I would have been like, ugh, this schmaltzy Broadway Vegas music. Don't want to hear it.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  I love schmaltzy and Vegas music. Grew up with it.

• 1:13:07Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless. The second impression I have is like, wow, this is a really good song. And then of course I dig around, I realize it's Paul and Roger. When I worked with Paul recently, he gave me one of the greatest compliments I've ever gotten. Paul and I worked together, each song we wrote in about an hour and a half. And at the end of the writing the second song, he said, I like working with you. You remind me of working with Roger. He said, fast. I thought this is such a deep compliment from a songwriter.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  That is nice.

• 1:13:37Billy Corgan?

  Like you get it. Like we're in this together. Like let's go.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  It means too that you're aligned creatively and that's a

• 1:13:43Billy Corgan?

  It's crazy. I mean,

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Powerful.

• 1:13:45Billy Corgan?

  I've not written a lot of songs with other people. I've written songs for other people or I've been asked to come in and help with something. But to just sit down with somebody like Paul, who has this incredible history and say, here's a blank piece of paper, go.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  You know, he was a guest star on our variety show.

• 1:14:00Billy Corgan?

  I did know that. I did know that.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  You know, without that variety, I have a relationship. I've talked with Paul several times. And that's why, because we had that connection.

• 1:14:10Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  But that is a great compliment.

• 1:14:11Billy Corgan?

  But the last impression I had is, and it's similar to what I was saying before, but I think it's important in this context to bring up again.

• 1:14:20Billy Corgan?

  Is I'm watching this now as a 59 year old guy with three kids. And you know, of course, now that I know you a little bit personally, and I'm looking at you as a young man on stage. And, you know,

• 1:14:33Billy Corgan?

  and it's like, how can I explain it? It's the fact that you're standing there and you're singing your heart out. She's singing your heart out. It's not about being perfect. It's, we're in this moment and that relatability is something that I couldn't have appreciated when I was a kid would have value to me today.

• 1:14:52Billy Corgan?

  The idea of this kind of constant need in American culture that everything be perfectly tuned and perfectly, you know, everything perfect, perfect, perfect. And I think what, I think, I'm not trying to speak for you, but I think what I get from your life and what I get from my own impressions of your work is being present is the, is the ultimate aspect in this equation that just showing up and just throwing your heart into it. Like you said, work hard and just let the chips fall where they may.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  That is something that AI will never replace.

• 1:15:29Billy Corgan?

  That's it, right?

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  And you're right. You can see it and you can feel it.

• 1:15:34Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm trying to get at. I felt it. I felt it. And I think, you know, as a working artist in this, in this century, as you are too, it's almost become this thing where it's like the new punk rock rebellion is to say, I don't want perfect. I don't want, your version of, your fake version of reality isn't that attractive because ultimately it's anti-human.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:02Billy Corgan?

  It's not to say AI is the devil. It's the human need to play God and, and only God can represent perfect. Our, our aspiration is to be perfect, but that doesn't mean we are perfect.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Or even if it's just pretense.

• 1:16:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Even if it's faked in perfection.

• 1:16:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Or contrived in perfection. It doesn't, it doesn't work.

• 1:16:25Billy Corgan?

  And I love that.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Authenticity and presence does.

• 1:16:27Billy Corgan?

  I love that you're on the Mike Douglas show.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  I do too, several times.

• 1:16:30Billy Corgan?

  So cool.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  And yeah, that, the whole circuit, John Davidson.

• 1:16:34Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of in a way what I'm, my aspirations are for this show is to ultimately turn it into that.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Well, I think you're well on your.

• 1:16:41Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  On your way.

• 1:16:43Billy Corgan?

  I believe the, there's a room in this culture for genteel, respectful conversations about things that are interesting and then ultimately add in music. So.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:52Billy Corgan?

  Hopefully a year from now, if I can expand the show, we're doing a song together.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:16:56Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  I'm in.

• 1:16:58Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. I appreciate it.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:16:59Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to hold you to that. Okay. Just a few more questions.

• 1:17:04Billy Corgan?

  Because you've had such a unique American life, is there anything that you like a pearl of wisdom that you feel you can share? You know what I mean?

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  I'm asked a little differently, and I think it's basically the same question. You know, is there any regret regrets?

• 1:17:21Billy Corgan?

  Actually, I'd mean it differently, and I'm not trying to correct you. I'm saying is like, what you would you want like? If people still had stood in your shoes and done everything you've done, every crazy thing, every, you know, I mean, you just were eating bugs, right? You know what I mean? Like, you've had this very interesting ride.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  And loved it.

• 1:17:38Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. I'm shocked and I'm a rock star allegedly. Okay, so is there is there any pearl of wisdom that you can share?

• 1:17:47Billy Corgan?

  Like, is there a guiding principle?

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  I said it before, I told you it would come up again, and I mean it gratitude. Being grateful for that, which is in front of you.

• 1:17:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  And taking it with an attitude in a positive way.

• 1:18:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. God bless.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Now I want to give you my regret.

• 1:18:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay, please.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Because it's the same thing, I think.

• 1:18:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  It's a different shade of it.

• 1:18:07Billy Corgan?

  Please, you tell me.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  I wish that I had not been as serious about everything that I did at the time.

• 1:18:18Billy Corgan?

  But that's but that's at the root of your earnestness.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  It is, but there's a way to do that.

• 1:18:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  And still apply yourself and still be disciplined and still do that with the knowledge that you're on a ride.

• 1:18:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  It's a journey. And I thought if, you know, my my stakes were.

• 1:18:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay, what was the what was the mountain top for you?

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Well, I'm there.

• 1:18:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Is being comfortable, happy?

• 1:18:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  If if you don't know it at the time, you miss it. My stakes were if I didn't do this just so.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  My career would be over.

• 1:19:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  So I always had that kind of a stake. It was all nothing, all nothing. And it was just, it was just a continuum. Oh, I really screwed that up. Oh, that isn't what I wanted it to be. Next time I'm going to approach it this way. Hey, that worked pretty well. Get on a ride, stay on the ride, love the ride. It's the only one we get.

• 1:19:22Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Last question. I mean, this isn't your home, but in a way it is.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  It feels like it. It feels like it.

• 1:19:32Billy Corgan?

  It's sort of crazily beautiful in its own Brady way, right?

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Billy Corgan?

  I mean, we're in a real house that started in a soundstage. And here we are.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Well, maybe this is a good lesson about life that we're talking about in presence because it is practical house, a practical house. But it is also artificial. And, you know, as good and as warm and as nostalgic as this feels, when I go home, I'm home.

• 1:20:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, maybe, maybe the blessing is you have two homes, you see.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:14Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Thank you so much, Barry.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Thank you, Bill.