Live From NYSE, The Gemini Win Scenario, OpenAI Monetizing With Ads | Diet TBPN

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• 0:00Jordi Hays?

  You're watching TVPN.

• 0:01John Coogan?

  We nailed that. We are live from the New York Stock Exchange.

• 0:05Jordi Hays?

  Here we are.

• 0:06John Coogan?

  The real fortress of finance, the capital of capital.

• 0:08Jordi Hays?

  Our second favorite place to do business.

• 0:10John Coogan?

  Yes, and we have some fantastic news. We have a partnership with the New York Stock Exchange announcing today. We have a post here from Lynn Martin, president of the New York Stock Exchange.

• 0:20Jordi Hays?

  Living legend.

• 0:20John Coogan?

  She says, "A really bright spot for 2025. Has been getting to know these guys, that's us. We're proud to announce today that the New York Stock Exchange is TVPN's exclusive exchange partner, covering the IPOs of tomorrow. We are proud to provide the backdrop for their coverage of the next wave of tech-driven innovation with Jordi Hays and John Coogan and the entire team at TVPN. This partnership underscores our commitment to providing the premier platform for companies that shape our future."

• 0:46Jordi Hays?

  Well said, to Lynn. This partnership was probably the most natural.

• 0:49John Coogan?

  Match made in heaven.

• 0:51Jordi Hays?

  Match made in heaven, truly. Not just saying that. We got together for the first time for the Figma IPO, got to come back for the Klarna IPO, two of the more memorable moments from this year. Lynn and the whole team here are just fantastic. So this will be our home when we are on the East Coast. We love it here and we have a super fun show today.

• 1:12John Coogan?

  Should we start with Gemini?

• 1:14Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 1:15John Coogan?

  And so this is the correct take. He's talking about Gemini winning the AI race and questioning, is it bearish for the market as a whole? If you think about it, which is what efficient market hype said. Gemini winning the AI race is like super bearish for the market if you think about it. And he says Gemini winning ensures zero profitability for any other LLM model. Google will force any other player into an endless sea of red ink by keeping its model free until they bleed out and then it will monetize once its monopoly is secured. That means ain't no one making money on data center CapEx. Oops.

• 1:49Jordi Hays?

  Hot take. I think it's thought provoking.

• 1:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:53Jordi Hays?

  I disagree with a lot of it.

• 1:54John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:55Jordi Hays?

  Very real in some sense that we always knew that Google would put an incredible amount of pricing pressure on OpenAI. They have the cash flow, again, even in the areas that OpenAI also wants to compete. Consumer electronics, science, I'm sure, you know, chips, obviously. So all these areas that not even core to OpenAI's business today, Google's already been investing billions and billions and billions of dollars in these categories for a long time. I'm not convinced that there will be a monopoly in LLMs. It feels today like we're headed towards like a duopoly at the very least. And you can just easily see that there will be a number of other players making plenty of money. I feel very, I feel very good about Anthropic right now, right?

• 2:40Jordi Hays?

  Anthropic, I thought Dario's commentary yesterday at Dealbook Summit.

• 2:44John Coogan?

  It was fantastic.

• 2:45Jordi Hays?

  He literally said the word YOLO.

• 2:47John Coogan?

  Oh, really? I do have an overall rebuttal. My rebuttal to Ross Hendricks here is that Google likes good margins. They grew up with the best margins. It's in their culture that they had 80% margins. And, and then also, there's, there's this constant thing when you're a public company that even if there's the new exciting thing, like, there's a little bit of like the innovator's dilemma, there's the new exciting technology. But if it's not going to monetize as well on day one, then all of your investors, all the public market investors start asking, like, is this going to structurally hurt your business? And this happened with Reels, remember? There was this big question with Instagram, like, hey, we're moving from the, you know,

• 3:30John Coogan?

  the, the image-based feed where it's very clear that you can just drop a link to the next thing, to Reels, is that going to monetize as well as the rest of the feed? And the answer was yes, definitely, but it took a while. And there was like some skittishness there and Meta had to do a lot of work to monetize that. And so I would, I would be surprised if Gemini can hold out on not monetizing forever.

• 3:55Jordi Hays?

  Well, they are monetizing, that's the point. Like, the pricing, the pricing, at least from a consumer standpoint, is very similar.

• 4:01John Coogan?

  They could have gone free.

• 4:02Jordi Hays?

  Both Gemini and OpenAI offers free student plans, or at least a year free. But they're charging for the product. They did have an interesting announcement yesterday. They introduced Workspace Studio where you can build custom AI agent in minutes to delegate the daily grind, automate daily tasks and focus on the work that matters. That's their writing. So this will integrate with G Suite effectively. So it's like notify me about emails that you're determining are urgent.

• 4:28John Coogan?

  Lisa Su gave her opinion on the Google TPU.

• 4:32Jordi Hays?

  She broke her silence.

• 4:33John Coogan?

  She broke her silence. She responded. She fires back. Shots fired. She's at the UBS conference and she says, "Google has done a good job with the TPU architecture over the years, but it's a more purpose-built design. It lacks the programmability, model flexibility, and balanced training and inference capabilities that GPUs offer. GPUs..."

• 4:52Jordi Hays?

  Very similar to Jensen's line as well.

• 4:56John Coogan?

  I mean, it's not wrong.

• 4:57Jordi Hays?

  Or the Nvidia Newsroom line.

• 4:59John Coogan?

  The question is, you know, Ilya seems to be at SSI, Ilya Sutskevich at SSI, seems to be the most age of research-pilled, since he coined that phrase and kind of ushered in the age of research. He seems to be the AI researcher that's doing the most undirected, the most, like, the least purpose-built training potentially. We don't know what he's doing, but like, you would think he would need the most flexible systems.

• 5:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 5:25John Coogan?

  And yet, it feels like he's maybe aligned with TPU. I don't know when an AI researcher would say, "Yes, I need GPUs over TPUs." In fact, when we talked about the training in chip yesterday, we were reading that there's some companies that are doing interesting things on that architecture. So it's something that like she has to say, but now the question is like, she has to go prove it with some big clouds actually building on this. And maybe she needs like a big hero training run from someone to stay like, "Hey, it worked. We did it."

• 5:57Jordi Hays?

  Who could that be?

• 5:57John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 5:58Jordi Hays?

  Maybe OpenAI.

• 5:59John Coogan?

  Maybe.

• 6:00Jordi Hays?

  One of the new largest shareholders. Or potentially a large shareholder.

• 6:04John Coogan?

  So Lisa goes on to say, from our perspective, there is room for all types of accelerators. However, over the next five years, GPU should remain the clear majority of the market because we are still early in the cycle. And I agree with this because even if you look at AI workloads at a place like Meta, Gen AI, like actual LLM inference, large language models, these large transformer-based models, things that might benefit from an ASIC like the TPU, that's like less than 20% of compute spend, I'm pretty sure.

• 6:35Jordi Hays?

  That makes sense.

• 6:35John Coogan?

  There's just a ton of just.

• 6:37Jordi Hays?

  Recommending content.

• 6:38John Coogan?

  Put the ads in the chat.

• 6:40Jordi Hays?

  Just put the ads.

• 6:41John Coogan?

  Put the ads in the app.

• 6:42Jordi Hays?

  In the feed.

• 6:42John Coogan?

  In the feed.

• 6:43Jordi Hays?

  Put the ads in the trough.

• 6:44John Coogan?

  And that obviously does use AI, it just doesn't use, you know, large language models or they're maybe not transformer-based. So she says, "Software developers want flexibility to experiment with new algorithms." That certainly sounds reasonable. You simply cannot know ahead of time what to hard code into an ASIC. That is the difference. I mean, if you're Google, you kind of can, since you invented the transformer, you're like, let's make that in.

• 7:06Jordi Hays?

  They might need to create the copium chip.

• 7:10Jordi Hays?

  And remember Nvidia, so Nvidia on November 25th said, people very concerned by this post, Nvidia offers greater performance, versatility and fungibility than ASICs, which are designed for specific AI frameworks or functions. And so, again, that's a fair point of view, but I think that we're already seeing that plenty of players are happy to buy a chip that is good at a specific framework or function.

• 7:33John Coogan?

  The other interesting thing is like, is like, you mentioned OpenAI, but like, there's nothing stopping AMD from doing something that looks like a TPU for a foundation model company.

• 7:44Jordi Hays?

  Meanwhile, Demis is moving on to the next paradigm. He is, according to Peter over at Alan Marina, Demis and the DeepMind team are hiring a research scientist for post AGI research.

• 7:56John Coogan?

  This is, this is what we were asking for. We were saying, we were saying, you know, there's a whole bunch of AI researchers, then there were AI AGI researchers, then Zuck came in over the top, said, we don't care about AGI, we're going straight shots, super intelligent. Researchers.

• 8:10Jordi Hays?

  So everybody's like, everybody's kind of banking on

• 8:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Jordi Hays?

  Uh, creating an AI that's really good at AI research. And so maybe Demis is trying, maybe the, maybe Demis believes there's one out there. He's trying to bait them in.

• 8:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:21Jordi Hays?

  Because one of these agents might be like, I am in the post AGI era. I am AGI.

• 8:25John Coogan?

  You get time traveler scenario, what are you saying?

• 8:27Jordi Hays?

  No, no, no, like, you know, who, who knows?

• 8:29John Coogan?

  We, we initially were joking about, uh, like the, the media landscape being like the, the punk landscape. And you know, you have like pop punk, post pop punk. Trad punk.

• 8:40Jordi Hays?

  Neo legacy.

• 8:41John Coogan?

  Neo punk or neo new metal, all these different, you know, musical subgenres. All of that has come to AI fully. There is, there is AI, AGI, ASI, safe superintelligence, post AGI research now.

• 8:56Jordi Hays?

  There's been, uh, back and forth on whether or not OpenAI is rolling out ads in chat GPT. The, the, the most recent reporting out of the, the code red memo meeting, et cetera. There was a bunch of different accounts, including Polly Market, that were sharing that OpenAI is ready to roll out ads.

• 9:10John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 9:11Jordi Hays?

  One thing that was notable was that I saw a ton of people dunking on it and being like, just very against ads. Uh, and you were talking about this, who's going to be the first?

• 9:20John Coogan?

  Eric Sufer, Ben Thompson, we're holding up the wall, being like, we will stand with you, Sam Alman and Fiji Seemao. If you.

• 9:27Jordi Hays?

  And Sundar, and Sundar.

• 9:29John Coogan?

  And Sundar, we are your strongest soldiers. We will support you.

• 9:32Jordi Hays?

  Some way, OpenAI should want Gemini to go first.

• 9:36John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 9:37Jordi Hays?

  To take the first leap.

• 9:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Jordi Hays?

  But I think that it's very possible that Google might be like, no, we'll, we'll let you do the honors.

• 9:42John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly. I think we were talking about that yesterday. One last thing on ads, if I'm Google, I wouldn't run a single ad on Gemini core. I'd run it at a pure loss until every competitor is forced to slap ads everywhere just to keep the lights on. It's the bleeding out strategy, but Google had the opportunity to do that with, uh, they, they could have gotten into a price war on cloud. They could have said, hey, we want to come in, you know, and we're going to take zero margins on this and really try and take, uh, market share from AWS and Azure. They've all agreed, no price wars, basically.

• 10:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 10:13John Coogan?

  Uh, let's compete on functionality, let's compete on branding, um, let's compete on integration. They have not, uh, had a.

• 10:19Jordi Hays?

  And Google doesn't have to spend nearly as much time building any ad. They have the ad infrastructure, right? They have AdSense. They have thousands of people out there already that just sell ads that work with. So they have all the customer relationships. There's very few businesses on earth that spend money on advertising and don't spend money with Google.

• 10:35John Coogan?

  Sean Frank says that a ChatGPT referred session to his site ridge.com converts at 12% and is worth $5 per visitor, the highest I've ever seen.

• 10:48Jordi Hays?

  For context, there's, there's plenty of e-commerce brands who have like a 1.2% conversion rate. They're constantly trying to improve that, but there's very notable that it's such a, such a massive difference in, in conversion rate. It just shows the level of intent that, that somebody has when they're coming from ChatGPT. They've done a bunch of product research, most likely. They've looked at options. They're, they're landing on the Ridge site, like basically ready to pull out a wallet and a wallet and a digital wallet.

• 11:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Jordi Hays?

  And purchase.

• 11:19John Coogan?

  Pull out a credit card from a loose, from a loose collection of, of receipts and, and cards and cash that they've been carrying in their pockets because they need a wallet.

• 11:27Jordi Hays?

  Joe has a chart. He says wild chart from Jim Reed at Deutsche Bank showing just, showing how much OpenAI is expected to burn before turning a profit. A couple of things stand out. How small the Amazon burn really was for its first eight years.

• 11:39John Coogan?

  People were.

• 11:39Jordi Hays?

  How big the Uber burn was before ultimately getting in the black. And so it's hard to see the exact numbers here in this chart. Amazon looks to be like sub a few billion dollars.

• 11:50John Coogan?

  A few billion dollars.

• 11:50Jordi Hays?

  Sub, sub $5 billion.

• 11:51John Coogan?

  The, the, the real, the real story with Amazon though was that, was that they were just basically cash flow zero for a long time when they could have been generating 10 billion or something like that. So it was effective, but I mean, that's obviously way better for shareholders than maybe we're going to lose 140 billion.

• 12:07Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. This, this projection is factoring in Sam trying to also build SpaceX within OpenAI.

• 12:16John Coogan?

  Yes, that was in the business and finance section.

• 12:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, in the journal today. Why don't you read through it?

• 12:21John Coogan?

  So this is a scoop from Berber Jin, one of the greatest to ever scoop. He says, OpenAI CEO considers building or partnering with rocket company. OpenAI chief executive Sam Altman has explored putting together funds to either acquire or partner with a rocket company, a move that would position him to compete against Elon Musk and Elon Musk's SpaceX. Altman reached out to at least one.

• 12:45Jordi Hays?

  Opening up another front.

• 12:46John Coogan?

  Another front, invading Russia in the winter, one might say, in the AI winter. Don't invade.

• 12:53Jordi Hays?

  Don't invade, what is it? Starbase during the AI winter.

• 12:56John Coogan?

  During the AI winter. He reached out to at least one rocket maker, Stokkspace, in the summer, and discussions picked up in the fall. According to people familiar with the talks, among the proposals was for OpenAI to make a series of equity investments in the company and end up with a controlling stake. Such an investment would total billions of dollars over time. The talks are no longer active, but this happens and now it's leaking. When I'm looking at this original chart of like, Amazon over eight years burnt half a billion or a couple billion, then Tesla burnt more, then Uber burned more. Like, and I see OpenAI burning way more. It is striking, but it actually doesn't seem that crazy if we're talking about a potential really powerful monopoly, right?

• 13:41John Coogan?

  If there's a really powerful monopoly like what happened with Uber, look at the market cap of Uber, look at the market cap of Lyft, and ask yourself, was it worth investing $40 billion? Was it worth burning that? If the outcome at the end of this is, yep, it's going to be the front door to AI for everyone forever, or for 30 years, you know, or something like that, then it's totally worth it.

• 14:00Jordi Hays?

  I feel like comparing dollars spent in the 90s versus the 2020s should probably be normalized. So, yeah.

• 14:07John Coogan?

  It's funny that there's no, that Sam Altman is not teaming up with Jeff Bezos, who has Blue Origin, but lacks a really strong AI bet. There was a little bit of anthropic going on.

• 14:19Jordi Hays?

  He has his own company now.

• 14:20John Coogan?

  He has his own company, yes, but I would not say that Jeff Bezos has as much control over AI as Elon does with XAI, right? He doesn't have as much.

• 14:29Jordi Hays?

  He's a co-CEO of Project Prometheus.

• 14:32John Coogan?

  But this just started. Whereas XAI has actually scaled, has large data centers. Sure, they might be a little bit behind on certain benchmarks. They might be ahead on some other things. They might need to, you know, actually ramp the usage of this, of this product. But you can't say that Elon is like sitting on the sidelines during the foundation model wars.

• 14:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 14:49John Coogan?

  You basically can't say that about Bezos, right?

• 14:51Jordi Hays?

  I would argue that they have six billion in funding.

• 14:53John Coogan?

  There's a natural alliance there. Bezos has, has a copy of everything Elon's done. Bezos has Rivian to compete with Tesla. He has Blue Origin, obviously, to compete with SpaceX. And he has, he has a number of other companies that feel like they mirror Elon. And it feels like they've been going back and forth for a long time.

• 15:12Jordi Hays?

  In other news, Mets owner Steve Cohen

• 15:15John Coogan?

  Oh, yes.

• 15:15Jordi Hays?

  has officially been awarded a casino license in New York, enabling him to build an eight billion dollar hotel and casino complex next to Citi Field. That's a thousand-room luxury hotel, 5,000 slot machines. So for those not familiar.

• 15:28John Coogan?

  So slot machines, you can't normally do that in New York, right?

• 15:32Jordi Hays?

  I don't think there's slots in New York.

• 15:34John Coogan?

  I feel like when I think of slot machines, I think of Las Vegas, and I think of that's the only place. And then maybe Atlantic City.

• 15:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 15:39John Coogan?

  Atlantic City, I feel like has been.

• 15:41Jordi Hays?

  You had an idea, which was to, somebody to set up a slot machine in real life, point a video camera on it, and then have somebody set up prediction markets

• 15:48John Coogan?

  Yes, to predict what happens.

• 15:50Jordi Hays?

  to predict what happens with the next poll.

• 15:51John Coogan?

  Yes, because that would help you understand what's likely to happen.

• 15:54Jordi Hays?

  And you could hedge any type of risk that, that.

• 15:56John Coogan?

  Exactly, that the slot machine might encounter.

• 15:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 15:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, you don't want to be on the other side of that slot machine, too.

• 16:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that could, you get wiped out.

• 16:05John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 16:05Jordi Hays?

  It's going to have restaurants, bars, and a theater for shows, and 25 acres of public parks and playgrounds.

• 16:13John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:14Jordi Hays?

  So fun for the whole. Fun for the whole family. The kids will be climbing on the jungle gym and they'll accidentally be pulling all the, imagine a jungle gym.

• 16:25John Coogan?

  It practices the three-year bandits. You get used to the muscle memory.

• 16:29Jordi Hays?

  Throwing dice.

• 16:30John Coogan?

  Yes, yes.

• 16:31Jordi Hays?

  Cohen is essentially taking an under-monetized asset, 50 acres of parking lots around the stadium, and trying to transform it into a year-round revenue engine that produces consistent returns, independent of how the Mets perform. And with the New York State Gaming Commission predicting that the property, predicting, predicting.

• 16:50John Coogan?

  Wink, wink.

• 16:50Jordi Hays?

  Wink, wink. That the property will generate 3.9 billion in annual revenue. Cohen's 50-acre complex would instantly be one of the top 10 largest US casinos by revenue. Overeating, gonna get their faces ripped off if they don't just focus, focus, focus. Equity deals and other bets will not win the great game. That feels to be consensus view.

• 17:12John Coogan?

  Ben Thompson was talking a lot about the comparison to Google and tracking, when did Google monetize? Google wound up monetizing, I think, sooner than ChatGPT has. They put ads in it, I think, in year two. It's now been three years since ChatGPT.

• 17:27Jordi Hays?

  Effectively trying to encourage employees to do, to eat more and have more massages so that it didn't, they looked less like a monopoly, right?

• 17:35John Coogan?

  Maybe, but, I mean, Google did, did get, did earn the right to do other bets by just so solidifying their market in the search engine world, that then they could go and do Gmail, and they could go and do GCP, and they could go and do Waymo. But it's just like, all of that happened after becoming cash flow positive, and I think that's why people have a little bit of like nervous energy around going to space. Okay, it's good to have a space data center bet, and so you need a partnership, and realistically, Sam's not going to partner with SpaceX on it. I don't know why he's not just going by in launch capacity from Blue Origin, but maybe Stoke Space is the, is the better option for him. But put aside all the dynamic, all the competitive dynamics.

• 18:18Jordi Hays?

  I think it's possible that Sam was looking at Stoke Space, which most recently, as of October, was valued at 2 billion. And he was like, hmm, I bought Johnny Ive for, what was it, six? And I absorb another $2 billion company?

• 18:32John Coogan?

  Do you think, there's obviously an immense amount of pressure right now on data center build outs. They're using too much energy. They're using too much water. If you put them in space, do you think that helps the discourse at all?

• 18:43Jordi Hays?

  I think people hate rockets. So damned if you do, damned if you don't.

• 18:49John Coogan?

  But truly, it's going to be much harder to say, like, hold up an electricity bill in Memphis and say, hey, my electricity bill went up and it's because of Annie over there in the data center.

• 19:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 19:01John Coogan?

  Who's just, you know, slopping it up. Instead, you're going to be able to say, hey, the data center, yeah, it's generating sometimes helpful math homework help, sometimes creative writing stuff, sometimes some weird stuff.

• 19:15Jordi Hays?

  Curing cancer.

• 19:16John Coogan?

  Sometimes curing cancer, sometimes doing weird stuff, whatever. It does a bunch of different stuff, but at least it's not increasing my power bill because it's in space and it's not an eyesore, it's not in my backyard, and it's not using any water because it's up in space.

• 19:27Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, who knows?

• 19:29John Coogan?

  I think it has to.

• 19:29Jordi Hays?

  Probably.

• 19:30John Coogan?

  But I agree, then the discourse will be as blocking up.

• 19:32Jordi Hays?

  But it is notable that every time, every time the concept of a space data center hits the timeline, it goes viral for people dunking on it. And yet, so many people want to play.

• 19:41John Coogan?

  But they're dunking on it as, as like a violation of the laws of physics or like not a good.

• 19:47Jordi Hays?

  Too futuristic.

• 19:47John Coogan?

  Too futuristic, like it's not going to work in the near term. There are viral dunks that are going on right now around the prediction markets. And those are like, those viral dunks are like, this is a bad thing. I haven't seen people dunk on space data centers saying like, I'm not morally okay with putting data centers in space.

• 20:05Jordi Hays?

  Another Jensen interview. Now I'm nervous. A lot of people were saying that this was somewhat bearish.

• 20:13John Coogan?

  I listened to it on a plane.

• 20:14Jordi Hays?

  There was a good excerpt here from a capital. They say, Jensen Huang, in 2016, OpenAI was just a bunch of people sitting in a room. Joe Rogan says, they're not a nonprofit anymore, right? Jensen says, they're not a nonprofit anymore. Joe says, weird how that works. Jensen goes, yeah, yeah. Anyhow.

• 20:33John Coogan?

  There are some wild exchanges. I just liked the way... I've been calling for Jensen to go on Rogan for years. I've wanted more of the tech leaders to go on Rogan and kind of just cross-pollinate the two communities. And as I read the comments on the YouTube video, there were a lot of fans of Rogan who really were thanking him for bringing on this guy who's working on something that's pretty opaque in the economy. You shouldn't go into it thinking you're going to get Jensen on Dorkesh. And you're just not going to get a really deep insight into Nvidia's strategy. But that's not the point of this particular interview.

• 21:15John Coogan?

  It's to understand who Jensen is as a human and what he's thinking of broadly for the industry.

• 21:21Jordi Hays?

  Somebody is claiming that a Google insider has been trading on search markets. They're saying somebody's been betting millions of dollars or trading millions of dollars on who will be the most searched people of the year, including...

• 21:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, just like whether or not Pope Leo will rank in Google's top five most searched people. Darren Rovell says, "This is what happens, what will continue to happen when unregulated markets are bet on as if they are regulated." Here's the thing, they are regulated by the CFTC.

• 21:59John Coogan?

  Yep. Insider trading is illegal. Let's say that you just are trading corn futures and you just happen to know that there's going to be a major blight in the corn markets. And so you go and trade. If you have insider information that someone missed their harvest or something, you can actually get in trouble for doing insider trading, even in commodities. And you would think, what private information is there?

• 22:21Jordi Hays?

  And the issue is prediction markets become more accurate when insiders are trading on it. Meta, of course, is planning to cut 30% of their, I guess, the budget of their Metaverse efforts.

• 22:32John Coogan?

  So this is Reality Labs?

• 22:34Jordi Hays?

  This is Reality Labs.

• 22:35John Coogan?

  Which has worked on VR and AR, but also Metaverse development. And I mean, it's a lot of the stuff that was on display during MetaConnect. Some really promising stuff, some really cool stuff.

• 22:46Jordi Hays?

  People like it.

• 22:46John Coogan?

  But also a lot of spend. And so they leaked today. I don't know.

• 22:51Jordi Hays?

  The idea that this is the end of Meta's Metaverse dreams is probably wrong. I bet this will actually make them go faster. And I agree.

• 23:00John Coogan?

  I'm very excited for the next VR headset. I think the Quest 4. I think James Cameron tried it and really enjoyed it. Apparently you'll be able to buy a very small truck soon, which is a thing in Japan that supposedly not has been made illegal.

• 23:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so they were Biden era vehicle fuel efficiency rules.

• 23:19John Coogan?

  I feel like you haven't been able to buy one of these in a long time. And it never made sense because it should be the most efficient thing possible.

• 23:25Jordi Hays?

  The rule called for a yearly 2% efficiency increase for cars made from 2027 to 2031.

• 23:30John Coogan?

  We're officially terminating Joe Biden's ridiculously burdensome horrible, actually, cafe standards that impose expensive restrictions and all sorts of problems. Gave all sorts of problems.

• 23:41Jordi Hays?

  I wonder if this will drive people back to Tesla and saying like, I, I bought this after Elon went crazy and then Trump went.

• 23:52John Coogan?

  And then Trump brought in these. I don't know.

• 23:54Jordi Hays?

  The real loser here, I would say, some people would say the environment, but potentially more direct is that company like Slate Auto. That's trying to make a $20,000 truck. Meanwhile, these manufacturers have been making the $20,000 truck.

• 24:08John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 24:08Jordi Hays?

  At scale.

• 24:09John Coogan?

  For a long time.

• 24:10Jordi Hays?

  And they're super reliable.

• 24:12John Coogan?

  But I mean, Americans have just voted with their wallets. They do not want a two-door truck. It's just, it's never worked. Like the Land Rover Defender, there's, there's so many examples of two, two-door SUVs that have just not gotten traction.

• 24:27Jordi Hays?

  Like the Nissan.

• 24:28John Coogan?

  The Nissan Murano Cross Cabriolet also never took off.

• 24:32Jordi Hays?

  Pomp is announcing a historic decision at BRR.

• 24:36John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 24:36Jordi Hays?

  100% of equity compensation for the CEO, me, and the board of directors will be tied to performance milestones. CEOs and boards shouldn't be making millions of dollars unless retail shareholders are also winning. Now that I am, I am in charge of a public company, I hope to set the standard for what true shareholder alignment looks like. I do believe this was in reaction to an activist investor that accumulated around 7%.

• 24:58John Coogan?

  Did he also set his milestone at 10 trillion? He doesn't get a dime unless it's 10 trillion.

• 25:02Jordi Hays?

  I can, I can see that. He's, he's, he's a perma bull.

• 25:05John Coogan?

  That would be amazing.

• 25:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't think he's ever flip bearish this, this whole year.

• 25:09John Coogan?

  And the interesting iteration on this is that it's, Elon has set himself up with the equity compensation tied to share price, which went very well the first time. And now he set himself up to do it again with Tesla. And what's interesting here is that with POMP's BRR ticker, he, it's not just him, it's also the board of directors. And I think that at Tesla, that's not the case. I'm still interested to see what are the targets? Like, cause if you're like, you know, hey, the stock moves 2%, I get $100 million, people aren't going to be excited about that. But if you design those equity comp packages appropriately, obviously it's totally a win-win-win.

• 25:48Jordi Hays?

  Saw TechCrunch tweet six weeks ago that Meta is trying to ban Poké. He said he directly asked for help on Twitter, got a lot of intros, talked to the European Commission. EU officially opened an antitrust investigation today. X is unreal. He really is kind of Meta's, Meta's worst nightmare today. Are you really that surprised that Martin Von Hagen is pulling?

• 26:12John Coogan?

  It's Marvin, Marvin.

• 26:13Jordi Hays?

  Sorry, sorry. Marvin Von Hagen is pulling the, pulling the strings of the, of the EU.

• 26:18John Coogan?

  Gone.

• 26:19Jordi Hays?

  Jake Paul and the team over at Antifund have raised a new fund, 300 million.

• 26:28Jordi Hays?

  I almost said, I almost said 300 million. I'm sure they'll, I'm sure they'll be there soon.

• 26:32John Coogan?

  Two to three more of these that will happen. I mean, this does, this does in some way, in some way mirror the Johnny Ive, Sam Altman video of like them getting coffee together.

• 26:41Jordi Hays?

  Have a wonderful evening and we will see you tomorrow.

• 26:44John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 26:44Jordi Hays?

  Take care.