20 VC 028: Co-Founding TechCrunch and The Benefits of Not Raising Venture Funding with Keith Teare

Keith Teare is the Founder of Palo Alto incubator, Archimedes Labs whose incubated startups include the likes of M. Dot (acquired by GoDaddy), TechCrunch (acquired by AOL) and Ivan Kalanick's Red Swoosh. Keith is also the Co-Founder of TechCrunch alongside Michael Arrington. Prior to TechCrunch Keith founded RealNames Corporation raising more than £130m of venture funding before filing for an IPO with an implied valuation of £1.5bn. Items Mentioned in Today's Show: Michael Arrington The Lean Startup by Eric Ries Chat Center: Universal Chat for Everyone on the Planet DownTown App: Your Personal Waiter Weendy: Sunshine App What you will learn in todays show: How did Keith get into the tech world at a time when technology was not mainstream? A venture of Keith's, Cyberia was heavily used by women. Does Keith believe that there have been improvements in balancing the gender gap? What Keith believes can be done to reduce the gender inequality that persists throughout the tech sector? How did Keith's Co-Founding of TechCrunch with Michael Arrington come about? Why did Keith try and persuade Michael not to create TechCrunch? What are the benefits of bootstrapping your startup and not raising venture funding? Why Keith was never able to raise venture funding in the UK? How is the valley different from creating a company in the UK? Keith's beliefs on the barbell venture capital ecosystem that persists in the US? We then finish today's episode with a quick fire round where we hear the best advice Keith has ever been given, the highlight of his career so far and the 3 companies that he is most excited about and why?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  You are listening to episode 28 of the 20 Minute VC with your host, Harry Stebbings. Now, today is an extremely special day as we welcome a legend on to the show. He is the co-founder of TechCrunch alongside Michael Arrington. He founded Real Names Corporation, raising more than 130 million for the company before filing for an IPO with an implied valuation of 1.5 billion. Nowadays, he is the founder at Palo Alto incubator Archimedes Labs, whose incubated startups include the likes of MDOT, TechCrunch, and Travis Kalanick's RedSwoosh. If that wasn't enough, he is also CEO and founder of Just.me and Context Plane Inc.,

• 0:43Harry Stebbings?

  two of the incubated companies from Archimedes Labs. I'm so excited to welcome to you today Keith Teare.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 0:58Harry Stebbings?

  Keith, welcome to the 20 Minute VC. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Now, you've been in the internet and technology world since the early 80s, I believe. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into the tech world at a time when it really wasn't very mainstream and consumer-friendly?

• 1:17Speaker 02

  Um, well, wow, we need more than 20 minutes to answer that question.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  I, I went to college in Canterbury in the mid 70s and the mid 70s, for those youngsters listening, was a time of political turmoil. It was when the Vietnam War was in full throw, when both Labour and Conservative governments were bringing in discriminatory laws against immigrants, when British troops were in Northern Ireland and shooting people like a bloody Sunday.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  So my generation was very political. We were angry against the government on behalf of people who we felt were victims of the government. And immigrants, Irish Catholics, Vietnamese, anyone who lived in a British colony were the people we identified with. And so I became a political activist for a long time.

• 2:21Harry Stebbings?

  Wow.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  I started the, one of the troops out of Ireland movements. I started a group called Workers Against Racism in the East End of London, helping mainly Bengalis who were being physically attacked by skinheads in those days.

• 2:36Harry Stebbings?

  And how old were you at this time?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  I was nineteen, twenty.

• 2:44Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  And I wrote a book actually about it called Under Siege, which is a Penguin special that John Pilger wrote the foreword to, who's still a well-known journalist in the UK. And anyway, I was very active, I was well-known, I wrote, I made speeches. And in order to pursue all of that as a sociology and political science graduate, I learned to code and I learned to code for things like creating mailing lists for fundraising or when we wrote books and distributed in the bookstores, managing the accounts

• 3:29Speaker 02

  and the distribution of the books. So I got very, very technical. In fact, me and one of my cohorts, a guy called Norman Lewis, we made an interface that glued together a Commodore sixty-four to a typesetting machine so that when authors wrote stuff, we didn't have to retype it before it could be typeset, which was in about nineteen eighty-two or something, which was way ahead of its time.

• 3:59Harry Stebbings?

  And how did you learn to code at that time? Obviously, there are a lot less resources than there are today. What did you use?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Well, you know, even when I was in high school, we'd learned Fortran four and we had a link to the North Yorkshire mainframe from our school.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  And um uh and this was a secondary modern school, actually, not a grammar school. So um we learned four times four, so we learned the basics of, you know, if then else loops and things like that.

• 4:30Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Um and um the structure of programming, the logic of programming. And um as as a political guy, I was also very struck by logic. Um I I was a great fan of Hegel, who wrote a book called Logic. So um, you know, social science, there's two kind of strands in it. One is empirical, which is just gathering data and seeing what it says. The other is logic based, which is um creating systems uh in the abstract and understanding uh all of the variables that make those systems work. And I was in that second camp. So I, you know, so I took to programming pretty quickly.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  And um even though I wasn't getting paid, because I was I was doing a PhD and was a political activist at the same time in most of most of the early eighties. I started writing database programs and installing networks um on behalf of various companies that asked me to help them. And before you knew it, I had a pretty thriving company, which today is called Clarkson. It still exists in London. My brother actually is a senior engineer there still. Um and we were doing work for people like Mobile Oil or Warner Brothers Music. We wrote the A and R database for Warner Brothers Music and supporting those customers.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  So so um started to make a lot of money by by the late eighties, early nineties. Uh that was a pretty decent business. And um uh that paid for me to be, you know, pretty much a full time political guy.

• 6:12Harry Stebbings?

  And I think it's fair to say that now also internet cafes exist partly due to your creation of Siberia.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Well, that's, yeah, that's jumping forward about five years. So in in nineteen ninety four, um.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  I was a little bit bored with databases and networks and I discovered the internet.

• 6:31Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  At that time in England, there was an ISP called Demon, which was really an ISP for universities. It wasn't really for consumers at all. And the experience was DOS based, so there was no Windows internet, it was all DOS. And around the world, people had written code that would allow you to do internet on Windows. There was an IP stack called Trumpet Winsock. There was the first browser, Mosaic, and the CERN browser as well. There was news readers, there were email clients like Udora.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  But no one had put it all together and built a Windows-based ISP. So in ninety-four, me and David Rowe, Ava Pascoe and Jenny MacPherson, Ava is David's wife and Jenny's my wife. We did two things, we started EasyNet, which was the first consumer ISP in Europe. I was the CTO, so I learned networking and all the back-end stuff. And David was the CEO. And we did it in a building in Good Street, just off of Good Street, behind Good Street Station, Whitfield Street.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  And that building had a front-facing shop window and we put a cyber cafe in there.

• 8:00Harry Stebbings?

  Okay. And am I right in saying it was intended to be a woman-only space?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  No, it was never intended to be a woman-only space. That derives from the fact that Ava and Jenny ran it and became very, very famous. And it was extremely active with women.

• 8:19Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  But it was never women-only, I mean Maurice Sartre was one of the investors in it.

• 8:25Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Mick Jagger was an investor in it.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  So it was extremely reflective of the male-dominated internet at the time, except for there was a very strong women's emphasis, so Sinead O'Connor was always in there, for example.

• 8:42Harry Stebbings?

  Wow. And do you think then, kind of translating that to now, do you think it is still a very male-dominated internet?

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Well, it's a male-dominated world and the internet reflects the world, probably in an exaggerated way due to the computer science basis of it. Um, I mean, women are um structurally discriminated against by virtue of the fact that they give birth to children. And society does not accept um a societal burden of raising children. It's an individual responsibility. And therefore, it's very, very hard for a woman who is a mother to be equal to a man who is a father. The man is not expected to give up his job and look after the child, the woman is.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  And that that's a structural discrimination that women suffer that's extremely easy to fix. You just have to make uh preschool creche facilities legally um um required by employers.

• 9:47Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, absolutely. So so subsidized childcare, essentially.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Free childcare, yeah, free childcare. I mean, it seems to me that would be civilized. And and you know, we all aspire, ever since ancient Greece, our goal has been to improve civilization. Well, allowing women to work would seem to be a pretty big step, even more important than allowing women to vote. Um, because with money comes power. And freeing women of the responsibility for individually raising their children, you know, goes right to the heart of that. Not that they would be forced to, but they'd have the option.

• 10:24Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  And neither the man nor the woman would have to leave their job.

• 10:28Harry Stebbings?

  Have you seen progress in the time that you've been involved in the technology industry in uh the rise of of womanhood in the tech industry?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Only at the level of rhetoric. Um, you know, structurally, I I joined the women's liberation movement back in the seventies when I was in college, as most guys did in those days. Yeah, you know, you it was obligatory on you as a as a member of society in those days to be uh to support gay rights, to support women's rights, to be anti-racist and to be anti-imperialist. Those were the four things every reasonable human being under the age of thirty did. Um, a- and, um, you know, it was after the sixties, uh, it was, uh, it was, you know, a different time to now, where people thought about others first and not themselves.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  And in that time, since then, which is a long time, I mean, it's, you know, forty something years. Um, women's position has changed rhetorically, so you can get, you know, Sheryl Sandberg writing about leaning in.

• 11:34Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Uh, but the truth is, the structural position of women is barely changed. Except, you know, you can point to very high-profile exceptions. Very similar to, um, the, the structural position of African Americans or, um, African Europeans. Who, you know, you can get a high-profile African American who's the president. But it doesn't stop three guys being shot by cops on the streets in the last month.

• 12:01Harry Stebbings?

  Sure, so they're the anomalies.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:04Harry Stebbings?

  If the creation of Internet Cafe wasn't enough, we've also got you to thank as the co-founder of my favorite publication, TechCrunch. Can you tell us the story behind your co-founding of this with Michael Arrington?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the, um, the first thing to say is that, um, Michael really is the guy. Uh, uh, my, my founder status is, um, uh, uh, an easy story to tell. Um, Michael and I met, first met each other when I first came to the US, that was in nineteen ninety-seven. A year after EasyNet had floated on the AIM market in the UK. And I came here to do a company called Real Names, which was innovating in web addressing. We, we created the first ever, uh, multilingual web addressing system. Where you could have web addresses in Chinese, Korean, Hebrew, Arabic, you know, Cyrillic.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  And, and, and every single character set the human race uses. Which was a very, very big effort during the, uh, early, the late nineteen nineties, early two thousands. Michael was the lawyer assigned to me at Wilson Sonsini to work with me on the formation of Real Names. And on all the corporate development stuff. And it was very clear, very quickly, that, um, he was a much better business development professional than he was a lawyer. Not that he was a bad lawyer, but um he was really good at business development. And so I asked him to leave and he joined me at Real Names. And this was ninety eight, ninety nine, two thousand. And you know, the company excelled, he excelled.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  We raised a hundred and thirty million dollars, we filed for a one and a half billion dollar IPO. Uh in nineteen ninety nine. Uh the same people that took um Facebook public were were our underwriters for that, Morgan Stanley. And um at some point, Michael left uh to do other things and and.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Three years later, in two thousand five, we got back together and started an incubator called Archimedes Labs. And TechCrunch was our first project, along with another one called Edgio. Um and we were partners in Archimedes Labs. It was really one of the first incubators, and I still run that today. Um and TechCrunch was one of the first projects. It was really his project, not mine. In fact, I even tried to persuade him not to do it. On the basis that um the outcome might be too small to be worth the effort. Um because, you know.

• 14:48Harry Stebbings?

  Did that change for you with the AOL outcome? Did you think that was substantial enough to be worth the effort?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Well, it's great for Mike and it's a really good story for all entrepreneurs because TechCrunch never raised a penny.

• 15:03Harry Stebbings?

  Sure.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Ever. And um so Mike was vastly the majority shareholder in TechCrunch. Um uh I did extremely well, by the way, as well, but he did really, really well. He's really set up for life as a result of it. And he never raised venture capital. So, you know, in this world where everyone thinks that the key to success is raising venture capital. He's a great example that the key to success is just building something wonderful.

• 15:31Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  And he really did, by the way. I mean, he worked. Every hour of the day for years, from two thousand five to two thousand ten, he was working, you know, end to end, every day.

• 15:47Harry Stebbings?

  And this remained as part of Archimedes for that duration, did it?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Um, no, we, we spanned it out after about a year when it was obvious that it was going to be successful. And that, that was because the economics didn't make any sense. Um, within Archimedes, I was the majority shareholder.

• 16:06Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Within TechCrunch, uh, he was really the guy. I was, I was his mentor. I, I, I certainly will take credit for teaching him, uh, a lot about tech and trends. You know, web two O and all kinds of stuff. And, um, we, we're still very close friends to this day. And I characterize myself as his, you know, his teacher, um, more than his business partner. And, um, that worked out really, really well. And because we spanned it out and we were able to adjust the equity equitably, reflecting each of our roles.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Um, we, we never, we never fell out because, um, because we were, you know, mature about it.

• 16:55Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And, and for your other ventures then, did you accept venture funding? Or have you continued to bootstrap your ventures as you've gone on?

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Um, you know, in the UK, I never got venture funding. EasyNet in Siberia didn't. Siberia did get some angel funding, uh, from Boris Satchin, Jagger and, and others. EasyNet never did. And that was because at that time, you know, we were, me and David Rowe were from the wrong side of the street. Our accent, you know, I've got a Yorkshire accent. He's got a Plymouth accent. Neither of us went to Cambridge. So Rothschild Ventures and Three I, which were the only games in town at that time, took a wait and see attitude.

• 17:39Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  And, uh, we, so we grew the business from revenue from day one. And we never raised venture capital before we floated on the end market. Because we couldn't, we couldn't. We we tried, we just were not able to get them to give us money because we weren't the right kind of people. Um, I hope it's a little bit different these days. Um, but, um, and that prompted me to move to the US, by the way.

• 18:05Harry Stebbings?

  Well, the the the structural uh inflexibility.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I felt like an outsider in England due to my. You know, North Yorkshire working class origins, going to Canterbury, not Cambridge. You were not made to feel welcome.

• 18:23Harry Stebbings?

  And how was the valley different? Was the valley encompassing and embracing of you?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Well, the valley, the the first thing is you get the benefit of being a foreigner. And when you're a foreigner, people can't pigeonhole you into their own ecosystem.

• 18:37Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  So like an American in London, if he says I went to San Jose State. Nobody says, oh, well, you know, Europe is a shit. Uh, because they don't really know what San Jose State is. Um, and the same here, when people say they went to Canterbury, no one says, oh, that's not a great university because they have no clue. So as a foreigner, you get judged on your merits. Well, actually easier than Americans. Americans, you know, they do ask which school did you go to, to each other, and it doesn't matter what the answer is. But um if you're a foreigner, that that doesn't play a role. So there's a benefit of being a foreigner almost anywhere in the world.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Um, the se- the second is, um, the risk culture. There there's a lot of money in America, small as a percentage of available dollars, but big in absolute terms. Focused on taking risk and and and, you know, consciously choosing to take risk with big ideas that are half-baked.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  So as an entrepreneur, you can, certainly when I came, it's changed now actually, but you could, um, get a big idea funded prior to it being built.

• 19:58Harry Stebbings?

  And that's not possible now?

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Impossible now. The most recent developments in venture capital in the valley are characterized in America as the barbell ecosystem. That is to say, there's two big weights at either end and a thin pipe in the middle connecting the two.

• 20:17Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  And, you know, on the left-hand side is all of the seed money. Um, the, where a company can raise, you know, a hundred and twenty thousand dollars from Y Combinator or five hundred startups or other incubators. Um, spend three months, build something, do a demo day, and hopefully get another million or two from VCs out of the demo day.

• 20:43Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Um, a hundred and fourteen companies did that for Y Combinator in two weeks ago. Uh, not all hundred and fourteen would have gotten funded subsequently, but some would. Um, about ninety-eight percent of those companies die.

• 21:01Harry Stebbings?

  Wow.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  And they die because there is no money to fund the next step, which is to build a team and build something really substantial.

• 21:10Harry Stebbings?

  Which is the thin strand of barbell in the middle, I presume.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Correct. There's about five billion dollars available at the seed stage for all the companies. Uh, every three to five years. There's about one to two billion available at the A and B stage. And then at the growth stage at the other end, there's more than a hundred billion dollars available if you are lucky enough to get traction and become an Uber or a Snapchat.

• 21:36Harry Stebbings?

  Why do you think there is such a reduction in, in the middle stages, which, you know, possibly are the most important?

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Um, you know, I, I think it's, it's, um, evolution. Uh, it's a number of variables that have come together almost accidentally. Um, and it, and it's ended up with a Silicon Valley that is not best serving the needs of either innovation or entrepreneurs. Um, the first thing that happened is the bubble burst in the, in nineteen, ninety-nine, two thousand. And that led to limited partners, the people who give venture capitalists money.

• 22:12Harry Stebbings?

  Sure.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  To become very conservative. And hold accountable the VCs for what they're investing in. So that conservatism led to, you know, the desire to invest later when more was proven.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Um, so the early stage was kind of abandoned. And that made a space available that Y Combinator and five hundred startups and others grew into in two thousand four, two thousand five, two thousand six. Um, the second variable which aligns to that is the lean startup movement grew in two thousand four, two thousand five. That led to the belief that it's now very, very cheap to build something. And and that was somewhat true in the web two O era, when all you had to build was a web service. It's really no longer true in the mobile era where you have to build an Android app, an iPhone app, a cloud service and probably a web service as well.

• 23:11Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  So, uh, you know, lean startup methodology still works, but it isn't cheap anymore.

• 23:18Harry Stebbings?

  Sure, sure.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  Um, but the funding environment has kind of got a delayed reaction. It still acts as if it is cheap and it thinks you can do a lot with a hundred thousand dollars, which you can't.

• 23:30Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And we're moving into the final quarter now of the episode. Um, and a quick fire round, um, so I'll say a short word or statement and you give me your immediate thoughts, okay?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:44Harry Stebbings?

  The highlight of your career so far.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Wow. Chat center.

• 23:52Harry Stebbings?

  Chat center and why?

• 23:54Speaker 02

  It's what I'm working on now and I'm very excited by it.

• 23:57Harry Stebbings?

  Okay.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  And and the future's always the highlight of your career, never the past.

• 24:02Harry Stebbings?

  Great. That's a great answer. Uh, and and all the links in today's episode can be found on the blog at www dot the twenty minute V C dot com. And and next question, the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Marry Jeannie McPherson.

• 24:22Harry Stebbings?

  He gave you that advice.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Uh, some of my political colleagues. I wa- I was well known to be a bit of a lad back in the days, which British listeners will appreciate what that means.

• 24:32Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, yeah.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  And um, um, my friend said, she is the one and we've now been married twenty two years and had three wonderful boys.

• 24:42Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, fantastic. And, and finally, three companies from Archimedes' incubation programme that you're most excited about.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Downtown, which is um, a German twenty three year old founder here in the valley, putting eye beacons under tables in restaurants. Eye beacons are low power Bluetooth transmitters. Um, and has built an automated ordering and payment system that allows you to go in, sit down, choose from the menu, eat and drink what gets delivered and leave uh, without ever having to go to the counter.

• 25:21Harry Stebbings?

  Wow.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Um, Downtown App in the App Store.

• 25:25Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, as I said, all resources found.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Um, second one would be Ween dy. It's Greek couple, um, spelt W E E N D Y. Ween dy, which the joke is that's how Greeks say the word windy.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Ween dy.

• 25:44Harry Stebbings?

  And what's it doing?

• 25:46Speaker 02

  What Ween dy is doing is building an app called Sunshine, which is not yet released, which will take readings from the barometer built into the most recent smartphones to create highly predictable seven hour weather maps for microclimates everywhere in the world.

• 26:03Harry Stebbings?

  Wow. A- and that's not yet released. I- is it, is it iOS first or Android and iOS?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  iOS first, which is very typical here in the valley. No, no one does Android first unless they are, you know, somehow politically minded to make that choice. No, no, no rational business person does that.

• 26:23Harry Stebbings?

  And then the third and final startup?

• 26:26Speaker 02

  And I would have added chat centre, but I already mentioned it, so I won't, I'll choose Context Plane. Context Plane is a stealth incubation, not yet released again. Although if you go to contextregistry.com, you'll see a bit of a webpage. What it is building is the DNS of the real world. If you think of DNS as the piece of technology that when you type in yahoo.com in your browser, the webpage appears.

• 26:59Harry Stebbings?

  Sure.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  And if you then go and type google.com, a different webpage appears.

• 27:03Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Well, in the world of real world beacons, that experience isn't available. You can't have an app that lets you walk around a shopping centre and see all of the offers in all of the stores. You have to have an app for each store. It's a bit like having to have a browser for each website. And that's because today beacons are tied to the app that deployed them. And that's built into the rules that Apple created when they did iBeacon. What you really need is the ability to walk around and see the real world on your phone.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  From a single, you know, maybe from a map, you know, think of it as the first browser for the real world. Where you can walk around the real world and have the equivalent of Mosaic as it was back in the day, but now for the real world. Well, for that to happen, you need two things. You need an open registration system for beacons that puts the numbers pertaining to each beacon into a database. That's a registry. And secondly, you need a directory service that allows any app to ask the question, what is around me? And get back all of the numbers of those beacons and the metadata associated with them that says what store they're in and which department and whether there are any offers today.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  That's the lookup system. You need those two things. Context plane is building context registry and context directory to allow the real world to be browsable just like the web is.

• 28:38Harry Stebbings?

  And all three of those can be found on the website in the show notes. And Keith, it's been such an honour having you on the show and I've hugely enjoyed chatting to you. Thank you so much.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Oh, you're very welcome. It's a pleasure.

• 28:50Harry Stebbings?

  Now, for all the incredible resources and links mentioned by Keith in today's episode, please do head on over to www dot the twenty minute V C dot com. And I would love to hear what you think of the show. So please do send me an email with any suggestions for future guests or questions. Send those over to harry at the twenty minute V C dot com. Thank you so much and we can't wait to see you in the next episode.