677. Can Backgammon Save Us from Ourselves? | Freakonomics Radio

It brings strangers together. It teaches probability, strategy, and emotional control. It has even helped N. F. L. teams win the Super Bowl. Stephen Dubner explores why this ancient game is having a renaissance. (Part two of a series, “We Are All Gamers Now. (https://freakonomics.com/we-are-all-gamers-now/)”) You can find the transcript and show notes for this episode on our website here: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/can-backgammon-save-us-from-ourselves/ FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS RADIO: YouTube: https://freak.ws/3yIl6dl Apple Podcasts: https://freak.ws/3yAvQh0 Spotify: https://freak.ws/3TsdCmV ABOUT FREAKONOMICS RADIO: Discover the hidden side of everything with host Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Each week, Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers to uncover things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to the future of education, from markets for marriage to the surprising utility of wolves. ABOUT THE FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK: Freakonomics began as a book, which led to a blog, a documentary film, more books, a pair of pants, and in 2010, a podcast called Freakonomics Radio. Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner, it’s one of the most popular podcasts in the world, with a reputation for storytelling that is both rigorous and entertaining. Its archive of more than 500 episodes is available, for free, on any podcast app, and the show airs weekly on NPR stations. Freakonomics Radio is now the flagship show of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which includes the podcasts No Stupid Questions, People I (Mostly) Admire, and The Economics of Everyday Things. FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK PODCASTS: Freakonomics Radio: https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/ No Stupid Questions: https://freakonomics.com/series/nsq/ People I (Mostly) Admire: https://freakonomics.com/series/people-i-mostly-admire/ The Economics of Everyday Things: https://freakonomics.com/series/everyday-things/ Special series: https://freakonomics.com/topics/ CONNECT WITH US: [email protected] https://twitter.com/freakonomics https://www.instagram.com/freakonomics/ https://www.facebook.com/freakonomics/ https://www.tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio https://www.linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://stephendubner.substack.com/subscribe

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  There is an ancient board game that you can learn in 15 minutes and then think about for the rest of your life.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  I haven't met a human being yet that plays Backgammon that the game doesn't get under their skin. That game will get to you.

• 0:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Backgammon has had a few heydays in modern history, especially among gamblers.

• 0:25Speaker 02

  She paid me in drugs and a Gucci sweater that her friends had boosted from Verde Drive.

• 0:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  NFL teams have used Backgammon theory to win the Super Bowl.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  They're risk averse. At least they used to be before we came onto the scene.

• 0:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  And now Backgammon is having a whole new renaissance.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  People want in-person experiences. They want to get off dating apps. They want to make new friends.

• 0:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today on Freakonomics Radio, we continue our occasional series on games with a simple question. Can Backgammon save us from ourselves? OK, the dice are yours.

• 1:18Speaker 04

  This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 1:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  This past January, the US Backgammon Federation held a big tournament, the New York Metropolitan Backgammon Open, at a hotel in Jersey City. It drew more than 400 players in a variety of brackets, from beginner to grandmaster. They came from all over the US, as well as Germany, South Africa, Greece, Peru. The field included many of the world's top-ranked players, like this one.

• 2:00Speaker 05

  My name is Masayuki Mochizuki. People call me Mochi. I am a professional Backgammon player.

• 2:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Moji is arguably the best backgammon player alive. He has turned the game into a career.

• 2:13Speaker 05

  Played tournaments everywhere in the world. Teaching, writing a book, playing private game. And everything about backgammon, that's me.

• 2:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Moji had flown in from Japan for the Jersey City tournament, but he busted out in the first round. That's the thing about backgammon. It is a dice game, which means it can be volatile and the better player does not always win. I found Moji in a side room off the tournament area. He was playing a money game with some of the others who had already busted out of the tournament. He told me he was staying on in New York City for a few days, so I invited him to come play backgammon at my apartment.

• 3:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you want to just play, great. If you want to teach and talk while we play, I'm happy to play for money. I don't expect you to play for free.

• 3:13Speaker 05

  No, no, it's fine. We can play for free.

• 3:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  But I mean, I know that's how you make your living, so I don't want to ask you to work for me. I have $500 in my pocket, okay?

• 3:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm not planning to leave with it.

• 3:23Speaker 05

  $500 lasts like three minutes, but that's okay.

• 3:29Speaker 05

  I'm joking.

• 3:37Speaker 05

  One, four.

• 3:41Speaker 05

  Ooh, thank you.

• 3:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Nice roll.

• 3:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Things changed very fast there.

• 3:58Speaker 05

  Now it's an even game.

• 4:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  If you hit, I'm dead.

• 4:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yep.

• 4:07Speaker 05

  Fifty-two. This is very scary. Nah, don't be scared. No, I am scared. Okay, this is gonna be a shot anyway, so I gotta hit this. So this is the roll. If I roll a four, I'm gonna win. If I don't roll a four, I'm probably gonna lose.

• 4:30Speaker 05

  You roll in the middle.

• 4:33Speaker 05

  Purgatory. It's okay. Alright.

• 4:47Speaker 05

  Backman is not a game that you decide the strategy. All you can do is you follow the dice's advice, you know? You're not gonna against the dice. The game plan that you had in your mind that you wanna get, that's long gone. Got it, got it, got it. That being said, maybe I hit you actually.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  I was thinking about doing this. That would have been terrible. Because if you waited longer, then I have more ammunition to coming and it will be more dangerous, so...

• 5:23Speaker 05

  It's actually all about timing.

• 5:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, this game actually has a lot of similarity in the life. To life? Life, you don't know what's gonna happen. It's all about probability. If you make a good choice, you have a better chance to get a better outcome, right? But it's just a chance. So you may lose because of the good choice, right? But you shouldn't regret that you made that choice, because that then was a good choice. So you have to be confident. One, two, three, four.

• 5:55Speaker 05

  Two-one.

• 5:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really nice match.

• 5:58Speaker 05

  It was a good game.

• 5:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was really, it was really good.

• 6:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I thought you're gonna win this one.

• 6:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, my $500 did last more than three minutes, maybe an hour. We played three short matches and Mochi won all of them. But I held my own against a world champion. And I certainly couldn't do that on the basketball court or a football field. That is just one of the many interesting things about this game. Another is what Mochi said about how backgammon is a lot like life itself. And I would hear some version of that from just about everyone I spoke with as we were making this episode. At the Jersey City tournament, I had met a very good player named Melissa Shin, who works as an architect in Los Angeles. And she told me to get in touch with her next time I was in town. And she would put together an event with her backgammon club.

• 6:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yes, there are backgammon clubs, more and more, all the time. And I happened to be in LA soon after, so we met up at a beer garden in Venice Beach.

• 6:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Melissa had set up a game for me.

• 7:01Speaker 06

  We're gonna do doubles. Me and Frank against you guys.

• 7:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, it's me and Bob against you and Frank?

• 7:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  All right, here it is. Make it fun. This could be fun.

• 7:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  My partner was Bob Wachtel, a ranked grandmaster. A couple of years ago, I had taken a few lessons from him. Melissa's partner, Frank Frigo, is another world-class player, a two-time world champion. I'm not gonna make you listen to another match, but I will say this. Bob and I won. Take that, Mochi. Later on, I sat down with Frank Frigo, asked him to introduce himself.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  My name is Frank Frigo, and I am somewhat semi-retired. I'm playing a lot of professional backgammon these days. I travel to tournaments, I teach, I lecture. I did have an analytics company for about 13 years, and I still do some consulting in sports betting and sports analytics.

• 7:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Of all the games ever invented and ever played, is backgammon your favorite game?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  I haven't played all of them for sure, but I would argue it's the greatest game. It has all the elements of complexity. The pace is wonderful. It's designed as a gambling game. It's a fantastic mind sport. The game is played at amazing locations around the world. It's got a beautiful aesthetic. If you come to one of our tournaments, you will see the most beautiful, custom-made Backgammon boards, and there's something about the sound, the touch, the feel, that adds to the whole experience. I think it's, yeah, I think it's the greatest game out there.

• 8:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you were to call Backgammon an industry, I'm not sure whether you would use that word or a sector, how do you think about the size of it?

• 8:47Speaker 01

  I've heard something like 300 million people play globally in some countries where it has a long, deep history. You see Backgammon or Tavla or Sheshbeish, however they want to call it in particular culture, is played everywhere. So what I see, even in the United States, is that there's multiple tiers. There's the social component of it, then there's the casual tournament player, then you have the more serious tournament player. There's a big spectrum.

• 9:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  For someone who doesn't know the game, just explain it as briefly as you can, the basic setup and goal.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Okay, so each side has 15 checkers in a particular starting arrangement, and the game is essentially a race. Your pieces or your stones, as they would have called it way back in the day, you're trying to get them around the board and into your home board. There's four quadrants. You try to get those checkers into your home board and bear them off as quickly as possible. But along the way, there's a lot of contact and those checkers interact. If you land on a spot where your opponent only has a single checker, we call that a blot, that blot has to go back to the beginning. So while it's a race, it's not that simple. Sometimes you're trying to slow yourself down, sometimes you're trying to speed yourself up.

• 9:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ben, talk about the leverage and the excitement and volatility that is introduced by using the doubling cube.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  The idea behind the doubling cube is that you're playing a game for a stake of a single point. If you win the game, you get a point. If you bear off all your checkers before your opponent's borne off any, you win a gammon. That's a double game. But it's double whatever the current value of the cube is. The cube starts out at a value of one. When it's your turn, before you roll, you have the option, if the cube is in the middle, to tell your opponent, "I want to double the stakes of the game." So the opponent has to then make a decision. Do I want to play this game for double the stakes? Or do I want to turn down the cube? And the game ends immediately and they give up the point.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  The decision is, I can give up one point with certainty and start a brand-new game, or I can accept the cube and now play this game for double the stakes, but I'm accepting the risk that I could lose two points, I could lose four points, and I have to compare that distribution of potential outcomes versus the guaranteed one point that I would relinquish. The other layer on top of that is that the cube is not just a scorekeeping device, it's a weapon. When you own the cube, you have bought the rights to it, which gives you the rights to play the game to the end, and it also gives you the rights to redouble the stake back to four, which puts pressure on your opponent.

• 11:39Speaker 07

  If you do not know how to handle the cube, you're never going to win a tournament.

• 11:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Mark Olsen, another of the world's top-ranked players. He's Danish and used to play professional soccer, so yes, he's pretty competitive.

• 11:53Speaker 07

  The Doppling Cube is a fantastic device that was invented in the 1920s. Backgammon has existed for thousands of years, but the Doppling Cube has only been around for around 100 years.

• 12:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  It must have been so boring before then.

• 12:04Speaker 07

  Well, they still played backgammon without the cube in many parts of the world, but I agree, the Doppling Cube is the most fun part about backgammon. With checker play moves, you can compare your move to other moves, which inherently make it easier because you've got something to compare it to, whereas with a Doppling Cube, you've got nothing to compare it to.

• 12:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's the thing about the doubling cube. It occupies its own special dimension in the game. The two dice that you roll on every turn that dictate where you can move your checkers, they are inherently random. So you have to plan for and adapt to that randomness. The doubling cube is the only part of the game that can be unilaterally controlled. And who invented the cube? As Frank Frigo told us, that fact is still in dispute within the backgammon community. He mentioned a 1930 New Yorker article that identified one possible inventor.

• 13:00Speaker 08

  We have heard much debate on whether backgammon is basically a game of skill. They say the innovation of doubling was important. This, according to one story, was thought of by the grand Duke Dmitri, who lives in Paris, where backgammon is called trinket truck, and who has been playing it for years.

• 13:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Dmitri Pavlovich Romanov was a cousin of Czar Nicholas II and one of the few Romanov dukes to survive the Russian Revolution. He is thought to have been involved in the plot to murder Grigory Rasputin. So, yes, the history of backgammon is littered with interesting characters. As for the question of luck versus skill, here's Frank Frigo.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  It's a really difficult question because you've got to put some real context around it. Every decision, with the exception of forced moves in backgammon, is a skillful decision. The issue is how much it actually affects the outcome. You're going to get randomness thrown into the equation, which is what makes the game great. I'm going to oversimplify poker for a second. But imagine you're at the World Series main event and take whoever you think is the most skillful poker player on the planet. Let's just say it's Phil Ivey. At the World Series main event in a showdown, I could take someone, a five-year-old kid that has never played poker in their life, and I could give them a very simple set of rules where I could guarantee they could

• 14:29Speaker 01

  take down the top player probably a third of the time. I could prove that mathematically. I could just get them to push the whole time and eventually the opponent will have to call. In backgammon, if you took somebody you just introduced to the game and they played a top-level player at a major tournament-length match, say 19 to 25 points, they would have almost a zero chance of beating that player because you have so many active decisions, you can't simplify the game down to that level. This is going to make poker players cringe because I'm oversimplifying poker, but it's a fact.

• 15:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Frank, you are a two-time world backgammon champion, correct?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'd love you to walk me through both your wins. First, 1994, give me the who, what, when, where, why of that tournament win?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  That was a very memorable experience. The world championship has been played in Monte Carlo since the 1970s. It's been at the same location, the Fairmont Hotel, this iconic hotel. I was with my wife and we decided to go to Europe for an extended road trip to Monte Carlo. I was a fairly accomplished player back then. I played a decent amount. I didn't have kids yet or anything. I got on a roll and it was like a magic carpet ride for me because I didn't really have a close match. The quality of play back then wasn't as good as it is today, but I just got on a very good roll. I won the main event, eight matches undefeated. I entered the super jackpot, which is the

• 16:01Speaker 01

  big separate event, and I went undefeated in that as well. That was 1994.

• 16:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your second one was in 2023. That's an amazingly long stretch to be at the peak of your game. What was the difference between Frank Frego in 1994 and Frank Frego in 2023?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  In 1994, I had more physical stamina, but I don't think I was as seasoned as a player to handle the emotional swings of the game, which are a big component of it. In 94, I was fortunate that I won a lot of matches by very clean scores. So I didn't have a lot of those more difficult emotional tests. In 2023, I had a lot of close matches. I had some crazy turnarounds and some late swings. But I was much better conditioned as a player to weather that, to be able to sort of turn the page and not let it get under my skin and say, what do I do now? New circumstance, new set of conditions. Regardless of what transpired last game, I've got to focus on what's going on in front

• 17:03Speaker 01

  of me and give myself the best chance. In 94, it was a blur. In 23, I really embraced it and enjoyed every step of the way and got to celebrate it with a lot of friends, which was really fun, too.

• 17:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  What would you say are the characteristics of a good backgammon player, including perhaps some characteristics that might surprise people?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  A lot of people think you've got to be like a mathematician. You really don't. There are very analytical aspects of the game where you're grinding numbers, like what we call match equities, where you've got to weigh a bunch of information and come up with the highest probability outcome. I feel like I'm pretty good at that. But there's also a big pattern recognition component because once you're a few moves into the game, maybe you've got some reference positions in your mind that you've seen before. But it's just a combinatorial explosion when you get a few moves into a game and you haven't seen it before. And something that I think a lot of players underestimate is the execution part. It's one thing to sit in front of your computer and look at problems as quiz problems and say, what would I do?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  But it's an entirely different thing to do it over the board, facing an opponent, traveling to a tournament. I will tell you, I haven't met a human being yet that plays backgammon that the game doesn't get under their skin. That game will get to you because you just feel like your best laid plans get thrown aside. This ability to turn the page and look at a new circumstance, a new problem, and treat it independently and not to think superstitiously, you've just got to purge your brain of all that pollution and really focus in a disciplined way on.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  What's in front of you? How do I frame my decision? How do I focus solely on only what I can control?

• 18:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Have you seen examples where someone just kind of becomes a more rounded person, a rounded thinker by playing games, whether it's Backgammon or something else? Maybe that person was you?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  It's definitely me. I've taken things from my life and put them into the game. But I think the game has given me much more in that direction. I co-direct the San Diego club, which is one of the biggest, fastest growing clubs in the country. We have a number of people that play with us for different reasons. Some of them just love the competition. They love it as a mind sport, the intellectual stimulation, the social aspect. But another thing you hear, particularly from some of the older population, is they like to play because they feel like it keeps their mind sharp. Everybody's paranoid these days about dimension. They want to keep their minds stimulated. Backgammon just does such a good job of that. You've got a lot of active decisions. You have to think probabilistically.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  I would say that the uncertainty component is more realistic of what people encounter in the business world and in social decisions. Chess is a great game, but chess, if you make the best move, it's the difference often between 100% winning path and 100% losing path. Whereas in Backgammon, it's more probabilistic. And I think that is more like the decisions we encounter in real life.

• 20:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  I had been told that Frank Frego had put his Backgammon obsession to good use in the analytics firm he founded and ran.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  We built proprietary models for a variety of applications in sports, in commodity trading, in healthcare, in education. The idea was to take a game-based approach to solving difficult problems. There's a lot of data out there, but there's not a lot of good ways to take that data and steer it towards a particular objective. So in commodity trading, it might be ROI. In education, it might be how to reduce freshman attrition rates. In healthcare, it was how to reduce hospital readmissions for cardiac patients. And then, of course, in sports, one of the big, big breakthroughs that we applied was

• 21:06Speaker 01

  we took a lot of ideas from the modeling of games. And applied it to professional football.

• 21:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you say you applied it to football, what kinds of scenarios or with what kind of goals in mind?

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Originally, when I was just watching the game as a fan and I was a pretty seasoned backgammon player, I would look at what appeared to be the inherent risk aversion bias of head football coaches. They would get to fourth down decisions and they would sort of pucker up and relinquish possession.

• 21:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're saying they're very risk averse?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  At least they used to be before we came on to the scene. It struck me that those kinds of decisions are very, very similar to backgammon decisions and decisions that were modeled. One of the great breakthroughs in the modeling of games and backgammon in particular was that when you focus on the proper objective, which in backgammon is giving yourself the highest probability of winning the match. And in football, if you apply the same metric, which is how do I make a decision that gives me the highest expected outcome of a win, not maximizing yardage, not assuring I get some amount of

• 22:23Speaker 01

  points on a particular drive. When you shift that objective and that metric, it really opens things up and you start to see that these risk averse decisions are actually quite wrong. We set out to build a model that could actually measure it. We did this by building a fully customizable simulation model that was built on a lot of NFL empirical data. My partner Chuck Bauer, who is also an experimental physicist to do a lot of research at Indiana University and worked for NASA, he and I put our heads together to build a model that could simulate NFL games from start to finish, running clock, penalties, the whole thing.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  We had a hypothesis that coaches were giving up quite a bit. It turned out after we started studying it more deeply that they were worse at it than we even thought they were. They were giving up even more. Then we got excited. We were like, it's time to start knocking on some doors.

• 23:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  And so how much is your model or versions of your model used in the NFL today?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  I would say it influenced probably just about every team, some more directly, some indirectly. We licensed to about 12 NFL teams. Most famously, we worked with the Philadelphia Eagles during their Super Bowl run. They used it religiously. We had buy-in from top to bottom, from Jeff Lurie, the owner, to Howie Roseman, the GM, to Doug Peterson, and also with the Kansas City Chiefs. When you see Andy Reid on the headset during a game, he's speaking to Mike Frazier up in the booth, and Mike Frazier was consulting our models.

• 23:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me back up and make sure I understand. For a Philadelphia Eagles fan, let's say, or a Kansas City Chiefs fan, their Super Bowl victories over the past several years, you're saying are derived in some part from the application of Backgammon theory?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. When the Eagles adopted it, we worked very closely with their analytics staff. They had some of their own internal models, but they were basically calibrating everything off of ours because it was a lot more sophisticated. The real similarity of football to Backgammon is that you score in these unusual increments, where in games like baseball, you're basically trying to produce runs and trying to keep your opponent from producing runs, and that correlates very, very well with win probability. Football's very different because you have a decaying clock and you score in different increments. So the utility of points changes dramatically based on the state of the game, and that's

• 24:59Speaker 01

  something that has been very, very well modeled in Backgammon.

• 25:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, how did that modeling happen? And just how wild was the Backgammon scene in the 1970s and 80s? I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We will be right back.

• 25:33Speaker 07

  Backgammon is the best one of all the games. You could also say it's a game of economics, but then economics is also kind of life.

• 25:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again is Mark Olson. In addition to being a top-ranked player, he co-founded and runs Backgammon Galaxy, an online platform for playing and studying the game.

• 25:51Speaker 07

  Backgammon Galaxy was an idea that came up between me, Sandra Lailov, and Mochi back in 2018. Mochi and Sandra are basically the two biggest Backgammon legends in the world. The idea was simply just to have a unified grand Backgammon site, because it was kind of lacking. We just set out to do it, a bit of naivety there. Me and Sandra came from the world of sports betting. Basically, I was a quant in sports betting for the last 10 years prior to that. In 2019 or so, I went full-time on Backgammon Galaxy, trying to get this project up and running. We thought that we were gonna be a money gaming site, because that was kind of like the world we came from, but it wasn't really a good business plan. It's a very regulated market.

• 26:36Speaker 07

  We had trouble really getting off the ground. In the meantime, we had a YouTube channel. It became the biggest Backgammon YouTube channel quite fast. We realized that the opportunities in mobile gaming and social gaming were actually gigantic. The market is really, really big. So we pivoted and we started creating a product, and we raised some money, and we had the first real version, I would say, of Backgammon Galaxy, launched in 2022.

• 27:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  How many players are on the site? And how do you make money?

• 27:05Speaker 07

  We have about 220,000 users. We have a subscription, and then we have some social coins. You can't withdraw them or anything for a real value. It's just purely in the game. But you have users purchasing these coins as well.

• 27:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  How much money do you actually make, if you can tell me?

• 27:23Speaker 07

  I don't think I'm in a position to reveal that. We are still in a competitive space.

• 27:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  But it's a business that is at least aimed toward profitability, or no?

• 27:33Speaker 07

  Yes, it is. I mean, we've raised money a couple of times and we keep expanding. Our team is now 25 people. Half of them or so are developers and the rest are dealing with customer support, YouTube, social media, all kinds of stuff, live tournaments. We own the world championship, so once a year in Monte Carlo, we host the world championship.

• 27:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let's spend a couple of minutes talking about this nice point that you raise about Backgammon as an illustration of economic thinking. In what ways do you see those parallels?

• 28:01Speaker 07

  Let's talk about trade-offs that you face in every decision. Because Backgammon is a multi-dimensional game where all the variables, they are entangled. You can't just say all else being equal. It doesn't exist because every time you change one variable, all the other variables change. There's constantly trade-offs to be made. Sometimes they are macro. I have a decision here between a priming game plan or a blitz attack. Sometimes it's micro. Do I promote that back check or one pip over there which slightly improves my racing chances? Or do I want to split it with the front?

• 28:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  What about ideas like opportunity cost and sunk cost and decision-making under uncertainty? Do you actively factor in those ideas as you're playing? Or is it more like they're just humming beneath the surface?

• 28:49Speaker 07

  Sunk cost, I think any professional investor or games player at a high level knows you should not dwell too much on sunk cost. It's in the past, focus on making the best play. Opportunity cost comes in a lot in Backgammon as well, especially when you're choosing between game plans. If you pursue this one game plan, there's an opportunity cost. It affects the optionality of going to another game plan later. Decision-making under uncertainty. That's literally what you do on every single move in Backgammon. There's actually several levels to it. We do have complete information of the game. We can see all the pieces, nothing is hidden, but we don't know the upcoming dice rolls. The future is uncertain, just like the universe. Life is uncertain, the world is uncertain.

• 29:33Speaker 07

  Even at a quantum level in backgammon, we learn to deal with it. There's a psychological aspect to it. Playing games, it trains you for being a more robust person. It rewards hard work and especially backgammon. If you're lazy and think you can win, you're gonna lose. If you are reckless with your decision making and you're taking degenerate risk, you're gonna be punished immediately. So even for kids, you know, I wanna teach my son to play backgammon for that reason.

• 30:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  I've heard you say that you wanna teach your son to play backgammon, not only for the sake of the game, but because gambling itself is a really good way to learn about the world and yourself. Can you just talk about that? I've heard you say that most people look at gambling as pure vice and you have a different view.

• 30:20Speaker 07

  Exactly. So let's start by making a distinction. My distinction is that if you're betting on something like a roulette table, then you have no control of the outcome. It's purely gambling. I don't see any good in that. But if you're talking about backgammon or to some extent also poker or to some extent also sports betting where you can get an informational advantage, you can analyze the game in a way that is better than the market. Or even when you see the rise now of the prediction market sites. So I do see that as a virtue more than a vice that again, hard work is rewarded. There's instant negative feedback on your bad decisions. You harden your personality and your mental abilities to deal with stress and misfortune.

• 31:05Speaker 07

  We've played backgammon or a similar variant, basically as long as we've had dice. It has that advantage over other games that it's simply evolved into this perfect equilibrium style of game where it's not too long, it's not too short. It has the right amount of luck to skill ratio. It's just a very balanced and perfect game.

• 31:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Backgammon is indeed one of the oldest games in the world. In various forms, it has been played continuously in the Middle East since 3000 BCE. During the Crusades, it became a popular gambling game in Europe. Richard the Lionheart of England and Philip the Second of France issued a joint order banning the game for low ranking soldiers. Dan Rather, in a 1978 piece for 60 Minutes, rattled off these and many other backgammon facts as he discussed the rising popularity of the game.

• 31:56Speaker 09

  In the United States, it is played everywhere, in the CBS cafeteria, for example. In modest rooms like the Barpoint Club on New York's 14th Street, where the winner of the weekly tournament can win a few dollars. And it is played in elegant private clubs where the rich and famous gather to dance and drink and play.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  It was basically Hugh Hefner who was responsible for backgammon becoming a fad in the 1970s because he proposed this kind of hedonistic, sophisticated, glamorous lifestyle that involved lots of consumption of alcohol, some drugs, lots of sex, and anything that looked privileged and sophisticated.

• 32:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Bob Wachtel, my partner at the Los Angeles meetup. Wachtel got a PhD in philosophy, but as a profession, he chose gambling. He was a world-class backgammon player and a backgammon writer, chronicling the scene, and it was quite a scene to chronicle.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  I first learned to play in Toronto in 1977. I went to discos and there were backgammon sets in discos, backgammon tables. I played a guy there and the guy wrote me a check on a napkin. I said, what's this? He said, don't you know anything? He said, a check is just a piece of paper that the bank issues, but I'm writing my account number right on this napkin. So this is just as good as a check. If you went to tournaments, you'd find the most zany collection of characters. There were lots of people who pretended to be royalty. There were snobs of different kinds and posers and drifters and people who were cheaters

• 33:55Speaker 02

  and lots of people were phonies, but none of them were very good at backgammon. And most of them believed that they were much, much better than they were. So they'd be willing to play anyone. In the early seventies, Backgammon was a place of magical thinking. And people believed that it was a game of luck. They didn't do any work, most of them. But there was some work you could do and there was some calculation. There were ways of learning the game, which most of the populace didn't participate in at all.

• 34:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you do a lot of that kind of work yourself?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  I didn't do as much as some other people. If you really cared to learn specific elements of the game, you would set up a position and play it many times. People weren't shy about expressing their opinions in those days. You would make a move and one of your compatriots would say, that's ridiculous. How could anybody do that? And immediately you could challenge them to propositions. And those were situations you'd set up where each person would get their turn to make their move. And the game would be played out to the end. And then you'd turn the board around and allow the other person to make their move. And the game would be played out till the end.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  You'd log a whole bunch of data. Not all of it was that valuable. Because if you didn't play these games well in subsequent moves, it didn't prove very much. But there were some very simple situations, especially in bear offs at the last couple of moves of the game, where the game could be played out in 10 seconds. And you could log hundreds of games. And sometimes if you had an advantage, you could log hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

• 35:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  And some people, we should say, wrote not one, but two books just about the bear off situation. Yes, that would be you?

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yes, but only a tiny segment of the bear off. The first volume, I decided to name it In The Game Until The End. Because back in the day, at the Mayfair Club in New York. The Marx or pigeons, when they got in these positions, would say, at least I'm in the game until the end. There was a lot of mockery of the pigeons. I always liken it to the vista that the pioneers in America encountered when the bison covered the plains of the whole country. And you could shoot them at will. They were always there for the taking. That was what it was like in the early seventies.

• 36:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  And pigeons or Marx or suckers or whales or whatever you want to call them, were they the same cast of characters? Or did you have to refresh the pigeons?

• 36:51Speaker 02

  There was an inflow of new pigeons, but the hustlers of the day would husband them themselves into their little flocks. There were some hustlers at that club who really weren't good players at all, but they had flocks of even worse players, much worse players, who they'd shelter from people like me.

• 37:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're supporting yourself. This is your profession?

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you give some insight into your earnings? I'm guessing you don't have a nice statistically sound career earnings calculation?

• 37:24Speaker 02

  No, I never kept records, but there were lots of times when I was not paid, when I was cheated. There was lots of stuff along the way that happened at that time. I once played this coke dealer, a woman coke dealer, and she paid me in drugs.

• 37:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  I bet she did, yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  A little bit of money and a Gucci sweater that her friends had boosted from a shop in Rodeo Drive.

• 37:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  And was that a kind of typical scene for a guy like you? Would we call you a hustler? Is that?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  I wouldn't call myself a hustler, no, because to me, a hustler is someone who feigns incapacity.

• 38:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  You didn't hide your ability?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  No, not at all, not at all.

• 38:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  How did you develop and keep your opponents playing you for money when you were plainly better?

• 38:17Speaker 02

  There was this great club, the Cavendish Club in Los Angeles. I could go there every night. And have a game.

• 38:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were the stakes?

• 38:24Speaker 02

  They used to play $10 or $20 a point, which would be like 75 or 100 today, something like that.

• 38:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you could come out of there with several hundred dollars a night easily, maybe a couple thousand, right?

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 38:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  And overall, just to give a sense of the luck versus the skill, overall, in a given year, do you think you were ever down for a given year?

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, no, no.

• 38:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, no, he says confidently. So a mark, who would be the ideal mark? Like, would I be really good? Because I'm like decent, but maybe good enough to think that I'm better than I am and I'll just keep coming back and giving you my money like an ATM?

• 39:02Speaker 02

  The ideal customer is someone who's very wealthy and enjoys locking horns with someone who's also good enough to give them the great challenge.

• 39:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how good were you at the time?

• 39:15Speaker 02

  By today's standards, I was terrible, but I was one of the better players around. Things got much more difficult. The neural networks had a great effect on backgammon society.

• 39:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's an interesting conundrum. I'd love you to explain when the neural networks came along and you could actually identify what were good moves and what were bad moves and you could acquire what's called an error rate or a performance rating. What was that like for you?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  For me personally, it was a joy because I had a stack of note cards, a foot high of positions I'd never been able to figure out, even rolling out. I tried and tried and tried and all of a sudden I could get the answers. It was bliss, but it was very annoying in the sense that the bad players could see how bad they were. And it more or less killed the money action in backgammon. The worst players all of a sudden realized how bad they were. There was a lawyer I played. He lived in Marin County, had plenty of money. I played him for five years or so. I must have won almost every time we played.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  And at the end of those five years, and this is before the neural networks came along. He explained to me, he said, "Look, Bob, you have a slight edge on me, but we're basically at the same level. People could just live in that kind of delusion for years and years. But when the neural networks came along, not only did the worst players realize they were bad, but if they weren't willing to work and learn themselves, they'd fade away."

• 41:02Speaker 07

  Before the neural nets, nobody really knew what the best plays were.

• 41:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Mark Olson again. Backgammon Galaxy is built atop a neural network that plays the game at a superhuman level. I asked him how this technology came about.

• 41:17Speaker 07

  In the 90s, AI algorithms with reinforcement learning was invented. A guy called Gerald Tsarou invented a program called TD Gammon. This was the first neural net to play backgammon really well, stronger than even the best players in the world.

• 41:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Where did this come in the development of AI play?

• 41:34Speaker 07

  This was basically around the time when Deep Blue were playing against Kasparov. Gerald Tsarou used Backgammon as a case study for his new AI algorithm. Backgammon was such a perfect environment for that because it's a multi-dimensional game where all these dimensions interact with each other because there's so many trade-offs and the variables are entangled. Yet it's still a small enough universe that you can just reproduce data as much as you want. You can simulate the games and it worked exceptionally well.

• 42:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  And when you say it worked, that means that in any given moment in any game, there is an optimal move essentially, correct?

• 42:14Speaker 07

  Let me explain a little bit how these AI algorithms work. You have, let's call it a play agent. That's the agent making the moves. And then you have a learner. We call it the value function in machine learning. So you're training your value function as a function of the results that the play agent decisions are making. Basically, it's a self-learning algorithm. The best move is simply the move that has the higher value in the value equation. Because we have the computer engines, the neural nets, that more or less solve the game. The level at the top is so high nowadays that it's much more a game of not making mistakes.

• 42:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Does that take some of the fun out of it?

• 42:58Speaker 07

  I don't think so, if you are a really high-level player. What is your motivation? For me, it's this mastery achievement thing. I'm not playing against you. I'm playing against myself.

• 43:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here's how Bob Wachtel described it in his book, The Backgammon Chronicles: A Pro's Adventure on Tour, Volume One. Backgammon has evolved from a model like that of soccer, basketball, or tennis, he wrote, where it is the fantastic, inspired shot that will be the object of awe for years to come to a sport like gymnastics, or ice skating, or diving, where the entire goal is to perform a flawless routine, a perfect 10, i.e. a zero error rating. I went back to Wachtel to talk about this evolution. You know, when we started this conversation, you talked about the 70s and 80s as this golden era of backgammon. There was a lot of action and a lot of excitement,

• 43:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  and the play was starting to get a lot better. But how would you compare the current era? I mean, it must feel very, you know.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Tame.

• 44:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  How do you feel? Or how do you describe the current era, where there is a lot of competition, a lot of tournament play? I assume there's a lot less of the kind of gambling action that you're describing here.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. It's much more normalized.

• 44:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is it boring?

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's not nearly as exciting. I would say that. I think it is undergoing a minor renaissance. I don't think it could ever reach the manic levels of the 70s because the whole Playboy lifestyle was what got people engaged then. And they were all sort of buying into this vision of the good life, which people are a lot more cynical now and aware of the pratfalls and pitfalls they can encounter.

• 44:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  How pleased are you with this mini renaissance? Do you think it's good for the world?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Definitely. I am very pleased with it. I think it's great.

• 45:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, we meet a leader of the backgammon renaissance. This is Freakonomics Radio. My name is Stephen Dubner, and we will be right back.

• 45:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Backgammon program XG, or Extreme Gammon, was released in 2009 and it became the go-to software for serious players. Last year, it was bought by Travis Kalanick, a founder and former CEO of Uber. He is also a Backgammon obsessive. Kalanick is expected to invest significantly in the site with modern AI and machine learning. It definitely feels like we are in the middle of a Backgammon renaissance.

• 45:52Speaker 07

  We are seeing two different things.

• 45:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Mark Olson again.

• 45:55Speaker 07

  One is the rise of online Backgammon with Backgammon Galaxy and other Backgammon apps on the phone. And the other thing is the rise of the social clubs all across the United States right now hosting these incredible social events where people come just to play Backgammon. I think it's amazing. It's something we haven't seen before. I don't know how big it can be, but it's very exciting, especially New York City Backgammon Club. Remington Davenport is doing a great job.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Hi, it's Remy.

• 46:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Remy, hi.

• 46:23Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 46:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  How are you?

• 46:25Speaker 03

  I'm doing so well, thank you. How are you doing?

• 46:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm dying to know why you're doing so well. I mean, I'm very happy about it, but...

• 46:31Speaker 03

  I just had like an amazing weekend. I treated myself to a present. It was a Backgammon purse and I've been eyeing it for so long. You can like open it and it's a full board and it comes with the pieces and... Oh, and I got my Backgammon table delivered that I designed. So this was just like a very big Backgammon girl weekend.

• 46:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how did you first get into the game?

• 46:56Speaker 03

  My parents taught me how to play. I never really wanted to play with them. I had a group of six girlfriends in middle school and we played Backgammon every weekend. We were very competitive over everything and nothing. When we played Backgammon, we were very physically abusive. We would flip the boards and throw dice at each other. We were so crazy. We were just like look for anything to compete over, but it was all in like good fun. But now I'm like, good sportsmanship and good etiquette is the only thing I believe in. But don't look at me when I was playing as a kid because I was a monster.

• 47:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were you playing for stakes, for money or anything?

• 47:33Speaker 03

  No, nothing, bragging rights.

• 47:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  A few years ago, Davenport founded the New York City Backgammon Club.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  To put it simply, it's a social club to play and learn backgammon. It's really focusing on community and bringing people together over this concept of being offline. And at the heart of it is making new friends and meeting new people and pushing yourself to want to improve. I also started Gals Who Gammon. When I go to these tournaments all over the world, I've noticed it's really about a 10% women attendance.

• 48:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  In 2024, Davenport attended her first Backgammon World Championship in Monte Carlo. She says it was life-changing.

• 48:21Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Walking into that room, I was almost in tears. There's 300 people in this room obsessed with the same thing I'm obsessed with. Like, how frickin' cool is this? I'm building a community in New York, but then there's this community of US tournament players. These people in the US have been playing with each other for decades. When they go to tournaments, it's a reunion. But then on top of that, going to the World Championship, I've made friends from all over the world.

• 48:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  This makes it sound as if, and please don't take offense by this, but this makes it sound as if you are backgammon and backgammon is you and there is no space between the two.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  There is no offense there. Backgammon is my life and that's it. There's nothing else going on, you know?

• 49:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you see yourself as with backgammon in, I don't know, pick your interval, two years, five years, 50 years?

• 49:12Speaker 03

  The basics is just growing the game in the United States and then definitely global. I'm starting to expand to other cities. I'm encouraging people from around the world to get into it, start their own club, do their thing, practice more, play online, play in person, whatever.

• 49:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Backgammon in this country seems to have a craze every half-century, right? In the 1920s, it was big. In the 1970s. And maybe the craze is really going to be that big again now.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  No, we're in it. We're on the path. The reason it's having a surge now, and I started my club three years ago, I can put a lot of my success on the change of society, which is people want in-person experiences. They want to be offline. They want to get off dating apps. They want to... Have experiences. I don't know what happened in the eighties for it to die down, but the reason it's coming back now is there is a big change in society of wanting to get offline and connect with people and be human again. So I started NYC Backgammon Club kind of as a joke. I knew 10 people in New York. I was just looking for a place to play. I had a full-time job and I started hosting an event every week in 2023 and people started coming. I'm like, whoa,

• 50:21Speaker 03

  this is so crazy. And I don't have a social media or marketing background. I'm a sales gal.

• 50:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  What were you selling?

• 50:27Speaker 03

  A lot of bullshit. I was always in startups. It's not even worth talking about. So I started hosting these events and I'll never forget the first event that I had 50 people at and I just went home and cried. I didn't even know 50 people in New York. Then I was like, okay, this is it. I left my job after a year of starting the club because I just felt like I could not be one foot in the door and one foot out the door of trying to grow backgammon. I host events Sunday through Thursday night. I'm killing myself still doing events.

• 50:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Does your club have a dedicated physical space?

• 51:01Speaker 03

  No. New Yorkers are tough, you know? People don't go below 14th. They don't go on the east side. They don't go to west side. They don't go to Brooklyn. I'm trying to just do as many events as I can for as many people and people love to try new places.

• 51:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Remy, the first time we met, you were helping run this national tournament in Jersey City. I see you have some kind of role in the US Backgammon Federation?

• 51:25Speaker 03

  I'm on the board of directors. I'm trying to make it more approachable for new people. My job in general is I'm trying to bridge this gap of club players in the US and the tournament world. Can I tell you about my backgammon league?

• 51:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yes, please.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  It's one of the things I'm most proud about. The first season, we had 64 people. I built a whole website and a schedule and every team has their own home bar. You either play home or away. I keep track of individual scores and team scores and it's tournament play. Five people from each team compete. You play in a seven-point match if you're an intermediate and nine-point If you're advanced, everyone gets a league shirt, comes with their registration. And then I give out prizes and trophies and stuff. Now we're in the fourth season and this season was actually 235 people, which was really cool.

• 52:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm sure there've been events even that you've organized where some character comes who just ends up being whatever, a drag.

• 52:26Speaker 03

  Nasty.

• 52:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Creepy, nasty, whatever, in some way. How do you handle that?

• 52:31Speaker 03

  It's a great question because I'm very, very hardcore and I have a zero tolerance for bullshit. This sucks to say, this is not the case for everyone. I've met a thousand wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people, but there can be one bad apple that really screws your entire tournament experience. And you may never want to come back because a man was super misogynistic for whatever reasons. Maybe you beat him, maybe just simply for sitting down at the table. These are things I've experienced. If there's consequences for bad behavior, then we can start to change. For decades, a lot of people were like scared that backgammon wasn't growing, so they weren't necessarily kicking people out. If you set the standard of like really welcoming and loving and fun, it sells itself.

• 53:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  When poker started being played online, there was a whole new, not just generation, but a whole new style of poker player who had never played anybody else in person. Then they began showing up to tournaments and sometimes they would win. Are you seeing people who get very, very, very good outside the established realm of playing in person?

• 53:31Speaker 03

  There's definitely people that come to my club being like, you know, I've only been playing on the computer or on my phone and I'm a little nervous. I'm like, don't even worry, we're all nice here. There is this world of playing online and then trying to get into tournaments and it's so different.

• 53:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's different about tournament play?

• 53:47Speaker 03

  In tournaments, sometimes the rooms are absolutely ice cold. Sometimes they're so hot, there's so much stimulation. There's smelly people, there's like just so much crazy shit going on and the stamina of just sitting there and focusing game after game.

• 54:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  I recently stopped in at a small tournament that Davenport was hosting on a Monday evening at a hotel in Lower Manhattan. My first opponent was a friendly guy named Nick, maybe in his 30s.

• 54:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Nice to meet you. I don't think we can fit here quite. Do you have a board? I have a board, but it's pretty big. I have one a little smaller, yeah. That's a good size? Yeah, it's good. Yeah, that'll work. Again, good luck.

• 54:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have to say, I was feeling pretty good about my game. I'd had that solid showing against Mochi in my pairs match in LA. Bob Wachtel and I had beat Frank Frego and Melissa Shin. I'd even taken a game from Mark Olson when we played on Backgammon Galaxy. But Nick beat me, so that knocked me out of the main bracket. I dropped into the consolation bracket and I promptly busted out of that one as well. But I don't regret a minute of it. Nick and I even made a plan to play squash sometime. It's nice to make a new friend. Thanks, Backgammon. Here's Remy Davenport again.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Poker and chess are so much bigger than Backgammon. They want to get Backgammon as mainstream. Backgammon is just way more social game. You play with one hand and there's a drink in your other hand. Like, that's the game.

• 55:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what does mainstream Backgammon look like?

• 55:29Speaker 03

  I'm gonna have a tournament at MSG. I've been talking about this forever. I've been putting it on my dream journal or a manifestation board, whatever it is. I don't know how long that will take, but we're gonna do it.

• 55:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  You may think that Madison Square Garden hosting a Backgammon tournament is absolutely impossible. Until a few weeks ago, the idea of the Garden hosting the New York Knicks in the NBA Finals also seemed impossible. I thought back to something Bob Wachtel had said when I asked him, what's so great about Backgammon?

• 55:58Speaker 02

  It's very entertaining. It's entertaining because the things you imagine are impossible happen and things that you would swear are unlikely can happen just as often as that.

• 56:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  I also thought back to something Frank Frego said when I'd asked him the same question.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  I think of Backgammon as a masochistic mindfulness.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  When I'm playing, I'm not thinking about anything else. Hours could go by. I forget to eat. I forget every other thing going on in my life. I'm going through all of these, you know, ups and downs and twists and turns. You're getting these little dopamine rushes. You know, you roll a good number, something goes well, it goes poorly. You feel alive. I'm actually experiencing something.

• 56:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  My big thanks to Frank Frigo, Bob Wachtel, Remy Davenport, Mark Olson, Melissa Shin, and Mochi for all the good backgammon talk and even more for all the good backgammon. We filmed some of the games, so you can head to our Instagram to check it out. You can find and follow us at at Freakonomics and at Stephen J. Dubner. If you are ever looking for a game, let me know. Our email is radio at Freakonomics dot com. Coming up next time on the show, New York just became the latest state to allow assisted suicide or medical aid in dying. We hear from Kathy Hochul, the governor who made that happen. She was inspired by the death of her mother.

• 57:36Speaker 10

  To watch her lose her own voice physically and her vision and ability to communicate, it was just heartbreaking.

• 57:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  We also hear from a death doula about the American way of dying.

• 57:48Speaker 11

  I cannot live my life to the extent of fullness until I make friends with death.

• 57:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we hear from an opponent of the new laws.

• 57:59Speaker 12

  I think it's bad medicine, bad ethics and bad public policy and a grave mistake for for society.

• 58:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. It's also at Freakonomics.com, where we publish transcripts and show notes. Special thanks to Melissa Shin, Evan Manners, Mark Sparrow, Dylan Endyke, Dennis Hagerty, Sam Anderson, and to Amy Servini for her voiceover. This episode was produced by Teo Jacobs, with help from Zach Lipinski and Augusta Chapman, and was edited by Ellen Frankman. It was mixed by Jake Loomis, with help from Jeremy Johnston. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Dalvin Abouaji, Eleanor Osborne, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Alaria Montenacort, Mandy Gorinstine, and Pete Madden. As always, thanks for

• 58:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  listening.

• 58:59Speaker 07

  I hate making ugly moves.

• 59:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's your Danish sense of style that won't allow you.

• 59:05Speaker 07

  Looks like I have a physical reaction to this play right now.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  The Freakonomics Radio Network, the inside of everything.