James Gunn, Vol. III (SUPERMAN Spoiler Special)

James Gunn's SUPERMAN is out and it's time to talk spoilers! In this wide-ranging chat, Gunn talks everything from casting and cut scenes to the future of Superman and the entire DCU. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  There are some really interesting parallels that the Superman's journey in this film. He is brought down by internet trolls and is saved arguably by love and friendship. That's an interesting parallel to the journey you've been on.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  I literally never thought of it.

• 0:44Josh Horowitz?

  Is that true?

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:46Josh Horowitz?

  Until this moment, that never occurred to you?

• 0:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 0:51Josh Horowitz?

  What do you have to say?

• 0:53Speaker 02

  What do I have to say? What do you have to say for yourself, James Gunn?

• 0:56Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:03Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, I'm Josh and this is another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We have a special Superman episode with the man of the hour, writer-director James Gunn, back on the podcast, talking all things Superman. This is a spoiler-filled conversation. Strap in, here we go. I love these kind of chats, guys. Thanks as always for checking out Happy, Sad, Confused. Look, I always love a great filmmaker, but I love chatting with them when they can really let it all hang out and have a deep, open conversation about their project. Whether it's a Chris McQuarrie, the Blue Sood Brothers have done this. We've done this with a bunch of great filmmakers at the end of the cycle. And this was truly, I think, James's last conversation, his last big interview after

• 1:46Josh Horowitz?

  a very long road on Superman. Count me officially as a big time Superman fan. Look, I've loved Superman, I've loved the Richard Donner Superman. I love Man of Steel. I even have a fondness for Superman Returns, I mean, in a way, maybe I'm a crazy person. And they all have things that I love about them. And the thing that I love maybe most about this Superman film, for what it's worth, James Gunn's, is that it felt fresh. It felt unique. And after a lot of Superman in TV and film, that's saying something. It feels like a deeply personal movie. I found it funny and moving and weird and cool and invigorating and exciting.

• 2:30Josh Horowitz?

  And I just loved, I loved so many aspects of it. The casting, I think David Corn sweat kills it. Well, you don't need my review, but that that's where I'm coming from as a big, deep fan of what James was able to accomplish here. And just really relish this opportunity to dig into some of my burning questions. And I think hopefully some of yours. So consider this your one stop shop for all things Superman, a deep dive into this major, major film. And also a sneak peek at a lot of things coming up in DC. Yes, I hit him up with some very big questions about Batman and Wonder Woman and all sorts of future projects. So a lot here to enjoy before we get to the main conversation.

• 3:13Josh Horowitz?

  As always, check out our Patreon, patreon.com slash happy say I confuse where we post all things early, extra stuff. Access to our live events, merch, support us over there. It helps us make more stuff over here. If you're going to be in San Diego for Comic Con, guess what? So am I. I'm going to be doing my thing for MTV, hosting a lot of interviews there for them, but also moderating to major, major panels. So I hope to see some of you guys out there. I'm sure I will. Hall H Saturday afternoon, get a load of this double header. I'm going to be hosting the project Hail Mary event, and it will be an event.

• 3:53Josh Horowitz?

  This is of course, the film from Lord and Miller, the book by Andy Weir, star starring Ryan Gosling. They're all going to be there, as is Drew Goddard, the great screenwriter. This is going to be a big one. I'm really excited about this. So that's Saturday afternoon, and it is followed immediately by another panel and moderating. James Gunn again, James Gunn, bringing his peacemaker cast, including yes, John Cena, talking about the second season. Some cool exclusive stuff there, of course. So I'm really excited about the two events I will be moderating at Comic Con. It's always a treat, it's a treat to see you guys in person, feel the love, feel the excitement for all things in the geek world. So yeah, that's what's coming up.

• 4:36Josh Horowitz?

  Other live events yet to be announced, stuff percolating for New York and LA will keep you posted. I promise, check out the Patreon. That's where usually where we announce stuff early and get you discount codes. And I think that's about it. You guys are here for the main event. I know you are. Let's get right to it. This is me and James Gunn, just a couple of days after the release of Superman, basking in the happy reviews, the solid box office. He's in a good mood. He's also probably in a good mood because he's about to take a little bit of a break, at least. So enjoy this spoiler conversation about Superman with writer-director James Gunn. Mr. James Gunn, this is a moment. I was telling you before, I'm always appreciative of your time, but especially in this context, you are coming to the very end of a long road.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Truly the very end. So I have, okay, so we started in Los Angeles, went to the Philippines, went to Brazil, this is all a matter of days, went to Brazil, went back to Los Angeles, went to London, went to Paris, back to Los Angeles, to China, and then here to New York City.

• 5:48Josh Horowitz?

  You passed the test, your mental acuity test.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Am I doing okay? Oh, I'm surprised.

• 5:54Josh Horowitz?

  No, truly, congratulations. The movie is exceptional. And this, I was saying to you before, like, I'm excited because this is kind of, I'm doing this as an exit interview for you, because this is the end of the press tour. We can hopefully kind of like exhale a little bit.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:07Josh Horowitz?

  The reviews are great, the box office is great. I mean, I know you talked a lot about kind of not setting too much pressure on this film, on yourself, but you had to feel it. I mean, now in hindsight, now that you can start to look a little bit back and say that worked, were you feeling the pressure going into this?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, I have a strange way of approaching, you know, work. So when I'm working, when I'm filming or writing, I really don't feel pressure. I'm having fun. That's my relief valve, you know? My relief valve, that's a word, term. That's a relieving, you know, time for me. But then outside of that, yeah, I felt a lot of pressure. I mean, there was a lot riding on this. So, um, yeah, and I was saying to someone before, it's like, the relief is, from my perspective, is like, the movie's great. The movie works on its own, which is like what you need, but also I feel like you're

• 6:59Josh Horowitz?

  Have so much goodwill now going forward like we now believe in David as our Superman and the DCU.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:05Josh Horowitz?

  And and that's gonna really engender, I think, I don't know, a lot of greatness to come, hopefully.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  I think that when I feel pressure, the first pressure, the most pressure I feel is all to all the people that work so hard on this movie. The department heads and the actors that believe in it so much and Peter Safran, who they all believed in this project so much from the beginning. Everyone was just wholeheartedly 100% in. And if it comes out crap, that's just sucks.

• 7:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Um, and so that's, that's, that's, that's the first thing. And then also, you know, we have Craig Gillespie working on Supergirl. You know, uh, you know, Chris and Damon and Tom working on Lanterns, you know.

• 7:52Josh Horowitz?

  Clayface crew is probably about the start.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, James with Clayface. And so there's all these other people working on these other projects. That could have been either bolstered or hampered by this movie. And thank God they're all bolstered by it.

• 8:07Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So who have you heard from? Because now the movie's out in theaters. I'm sure friends, filmmakers, actors are coming out of the.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Everybody. Yeah, so many people. I mean, I just talked to Bradley Cooper this morning. I talked to, uh, you know, Darren Aronofsky immediately.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Man, I could, you know, I talked to Kathleen Kennedy last night.

• 8:25Josh Horowitz?

  Anything meaningful like in terms of the person or the note of what they said that really, really touched you?

• 8:30Speaker 02

  There were lots of things that said that were incredibly touching. A lot of things about, you know, you know, Drew Goddard writing me about him and his son being able to experience the movie together. And what that meant to him. That, that's always, uh, some of the more meaningful things. But yeah, there's a lot. I mean, and that's the thing. I mean, I. You know, I don't know if I quite expected this movie to have the emotional impact that it has on so many people. Like, when I put out Guardians 3, I knew that that was an incredibly emotional film, like, you know. And this one, I didn't quite think of in that way. And so I'm really sort of taken aback and, you know, happily surprised by

• 9:15Speaker 02

  how many people have reacted to it in such a visceral and emotional way.

• 9:19Josh Horowitz?

  Can you talk a little bit about like, what, what did you feel like your biggest swing you were taking was? What was the biggest risk you took creatively?

• 9:26Speaker 02

  The biggest risk I took was putting a 12-minute talking scene in a superhero movie. There's just no doubt. I don't think that anything. I think there were a lot of different, there's just so, so many creative swings. Yeah.

• 9:37Josh Horowitz?

  Which, for many, is their favorite scene in the film, by the way. It's one of them. It's fantastic.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  It's probably my favorite scene in the film. If I haven't seen it as many times that I have, and if I ever have to see it again, I'll, I'll jump out that window.

• 9:50Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a seven-minute version of that and a 20-minute version of that? Or is that basically the scene?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  That's the scene, man. That's the scene I wrote. That's the scene that we screen tested with, and that's the scene that's in the movie. There's like, maybe a line or two that we, we, you know, cut out, but hardly anything. It's, it's remained relatively the same in terms of the dialogue, in terms of the shots we used and the way we orchestrated it. It was, it has been endlessly, endlessly cut. I mean, just constantly changing it up until the, you know, right before we finished the cut.

• 10:22Josh Horowitz?

  Is part of that also just like how each of your actors, each of these characters comes across in the scene? Like, you want to see both sides, played equally to both?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, when I wrote the scene and I look at the scene myself, I go, I see both their points of view. I see Lois's point of view. I see, you know, his point of view. She's talking about truth, and he's talking about life.

• 10:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Both important values and both their key important values in their lives.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  However, I do think that, you know, in a sort of gut reaction, we agree with Clark. And so that meant that I had to measure things out a little bit more as I was editing it. Because although Lois is making very, you know, good points.

• 11:13Josh Horowitz?

  She's being practical, but in our idealized version of ourselves, we want to do the right thing.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 11:18Josh Horowitz?

  We know what morally is right.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Listen, his way of looking at things is simple. And some would say simplistic.

• 11:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  You know, life, you know, we have to save lives. She's saying, well, maybe more lives are going to end because of you doing this than if you hadn't. You know, let's look at the big picture, or at least take a step back for two seconds and try to figure it out before you act. He's a little rash.

• 11:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  You know, and we see that. And I think that was one of the fun things about the scene too, is we're seeing sort of the beauty of Superman and this love of everyone and of protecting all life.

• 11:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Also seeing some of his flaws. He's a little rash. He is not as quick on his feet as Lois is. And, um, and so we get to see a lot more of Superman, I think, than we've ever seen before.

• 12:06Josh Horowitz?

  And his fatal flaw, he can't operate small electronics.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he doesn't know how to the button, where the button is. Yeah.

• 12:13Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, another big risk potentially you might have felt for yourself is, and you've talked about this to a degree, but I want to talk about the music of the film. Because this is like a real change up for you. And I think it worked out in spades. I mean.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  That's good. I mean, that was scary.

• 12:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, because that's been a lifeline for you throughout your career.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  It really has been.

• 12:30Josh Horowitz?

  Like the needle drops, you, you're, you know, your music, you know, your soundtracks. Did you ever second guess that decision to go score heavy and only keep the, the mic drops to a minimum?

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:42Josh Horowitz?

  At what stage? Every stage?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  About halfway through editing, you know?

• 12:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Uh, no, no, I mean, the whole time it was always scary. It's like, uh, you know, I don't want to say that that's a crutch of mine, but you know, I know music. And so I'm very aware of how to use, you know, pop songs in a way that bolster a film.

• 13:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Um, and it is an easy thing to do and it's a fun thing to do. It's enjoyable. It's not like it's, you know, just a crutch. But to actually rely on the score a lot more was, was difficult. And it took a, was a real balancing act to get the score right. Because, you know, we, we start writing the score, you know, like

• 13:22Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  John Murphy started writing the score. I gave him the script as soon as I was done with it, the first draft. And so we started writing the score very early. Um, and, uh, and then a lot of that is in the movie. So like the love theme that's in the movie, most of Lex's themes, those are all in the movie.

• 13:39Josh Horowitz?

  You're playing those on set. I know I cannot, that final shot of them going up.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Going up, we were playing the music as they were swinging around. So those things stayed the same, but other things, the movie ended up having a little bit of a lighter tone than the original. Some of John's original score was so, um, so we worked with both John and Dave Fleming, who did a lot of the score, um, to, to lighten things a little bit because some of the music wasn't quite matching the film.

• 14:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So we're, when you're midway through that edit, do you experiment with dropping in some songs? Were there versions of this that had?

• 14:17Speaker 02

  No, there was a one point that I used an Idol song while, you know, Superman was flying.

• 14:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Um, but that's the only needle drop that I ever took in or out. And I wasn't even sure about it. I'm like, I said to Bill Hoyer, editor, can you try playing this during this, this time?

• 14:33Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  And it just was, it was too short of a moment to use.

• 14:36Josh Horowitz?

  All right. So can we go a little bit back? Okay. So the, the, the birth of this film, I mean, how to, uh, the earliest incarnation is obviously for those that don't know. When they come to you and they say, please do Superman, you say, I want to do Suicide Squad. This is back in which about 2018.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Well, it wasn't quite like that.

• 14:52Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  It was, they said, Please do Superman. They said Superman, Superman, Superman. I said, I don't know. And they said, what we really need is Suicide Squad sequel.

• 15:02Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, really? Okay.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  So I said, okay.

• 15:05Josh Horowitz?

  That makes sense to me.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  So I was like, all right, yeah.

• 15:08Josh Horowitz?

  So what was, is anything from, because you at least entertained an idea. You started to noodle around with the Superman idea then.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, well, I started thinking about it then. But the truth is, is that I didn't say yes initially to the Suicide Squad either.

• 15:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  I actually took three different DC ideas and wrote them out and was playing with them. And one of them, I will reveal to you for the first time ever, was a crypto movie. So that That had Superman sort of chasing after crypto, which I didn't really remember until just this moment.

• 15:39Josh Horowitz?

  So that was, so it was crypto was front and center and Superman was the supporting guy.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  In the background occasionally. Was a supporting character. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:46Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  You know.

• 15:48Josh Horowitz?

  What was the third? Can you say what the third was?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  That one I better not say. Because it's complicated. It's complicated.

• 15:58Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  I'll tell you after. But, but the Suicide Squad, you know, I really like to, you know, kind of make sure I've got the whole, you know, central core of the story.

• 16:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Before I agree to do something. And so I found it with Suicide Squad. And that's why I proceeded with that.

• 16:18Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So then jumping ahead, I just want to get my timeline down, right? Because I was, I was somewhat in the middle of this in a weird way because I talked to Henry Cavill in the middle of when Black Adam's coming out.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Oh, good God.

• 16:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And we love Henry, of course.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yes, he's the sweetest guy.

• 16:32Josh Horowitz?

  Sweet guy. Love him. And he has the cameo at the end. We had a big moment on stage where he thought he was coming back. We all thought he was coming back, but maybe unbeknownst to him or not, you're already writing a Superman movie, which is clearly for a different, a younger actor. Then soon thereafter, you get the gig as the head of DCU, correct? Have I had this roughly right?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, that's right. Yes, correct.

• 16:53Josh Horowitz?

  So then, at a certain point, you and Peter have to have that unfortunate phone call, I would imagine.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  No, we sat down with him. We sat down with Henry.

• 17:02Josh Horowitz?

  So without revealing too much, I mean, can you, I mean, what is that like to have to be the guy to tell Superman, thank you for your time. We have to go a different way now.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  It's terrible. Yeah. So, I mean, I was, so, believe it or not, I was, the day we, you know, we, you know, so we were dealing with trying to figure out if we could take the job at DC Studios. And we're talking to David Zaslov and all the legal people there and figuring out what our deals would be. And the day our deal closed, all of a sudden, they were announcing that, you know, and that Henry was back. And I'm like, what is going on? We know what the plan is. Like, we, we know what the plan is. The plan was to come in and do Superman.

• 17:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  So it was, it was really unfair to him and was a total bummer. But there was a vacuum at the time and a lot of people were, trying to be as

• 18:07Josh Horowitz?

  Diplomatic as possible.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Diplomatic as possible.

• 18:08Josh Horowitz?

  There were other people that, that had a take on what they wanted to do with it.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  They wanted to take on what they wanted to do at DC and were trying to force their way. And it just was never a part of the equation.

• 18:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  For David Zaslov, who was the head of WBD. So, so yeah, so we came in and that was really unfortunate. And I'm like, this poor guy. And so Peter and I, the right thing to do is to sit down with him and talk to him. And we sat down, we talked to him. He was an absolute gentleman, a great guy about it. He said, the only thing I ask is that I'm able to reveal it myself as opposed to it coming from you guys. And I'm like, that's, that's

• 18:42Josh Horowitz?

  No, he's a class act. Oh, he has been from the start. Yeah. Is, would it be too confusing to cast him in your DC universe going forward?

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Is another character?

• 18:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely not.

• 18:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  No, I talked to him about it on that day. So, yeah, no, I would, I would love to put Henry in something. Yeah.

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• 20:38Josh Horowitz?

  All right, so let's talk a little bit more about plot wise and choices you made here. Opening and closing, always baked into that script, was the opening where we see Superman? Was the closing moments him in that chair seeing his parents? Did you do it all around with how it was gonna begin and end?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  The opening is where I began the story. So that was really what kickstarted the story for me. And the closing, I can't remember when I came to it.

• 21:04Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so opening wise, it was important to you to find him like in media res, in the middle of the action?

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:10Josh Horowitz?

  He's at his lowest point, he's lost for the first time.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean... People always use this phrase, so it was important. And I'm like, none of this is important, man. It's a choice.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  You gotta do something. Yeah, I thought it was, it was, and relatively, it was important. Right. I mean, it was just, it was just where I was inspired, you know? I mean, I had just gotten my dog. I've told this story a million times. Just got my dog. I'm like, oh, yeah. So there were two things that sort of kickstarted the idea of what this could be for me. The first was my terrible dog. Right. And the second was the idea of Superman with a little bit of blood in his mouth. Right. And I kind of put those two moments together and ended up there. And, you know, and went directly into the fortress rising and the robots. And then I knew I had a tone that I could deal with, which was, um, you know, those, those different things combined. When did the opening crawl enter the picture? Much later. That was, that was after test screenings.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Okay, so there was a version that didn't have anything? There was, there was versions without it. Yeah. And so it was, you know, the, the movie, people loved the movie. But they found themselves confused going into this other universe. Right. And I thought, Star Wars, actually more confusing if you think about it. Like, what if we just went with Luke and there was never any, you know? It would be hard to figure out what was going on. And so I thought of that crawl and I thought, wow, not only did the crawl help the story, but I loved the crawl as a kid. I thought it was cool. So adding, you know, I think it really helps to set up the fact that this is an alternate

• 22:52Speaker 02

  history. This is an alternate reality. Yes. This is not our world, you know? It's one of the things I loved about DC Comics is that it isn't New York and Los Angeles. It's Gotham and Metropolis and Evergreen and Star City. And, uh, and we're creating an alternate reality. And so in that way, it is a lot more like Game of Thrones or Star Wars. Ever consider a narrator to, to do that opening crawl or was it always just text on screen? No, because I think the quiet of the, uh, the, the, the quiet of the, the, You know, ice planes is too important.

• 23:27Josh Horowitz?

  All right, so let's talk. A lot has been made, and I tend to agree with this. I mean, look, you write a film, you're gonna be many of your characters. You relate to a lot of these characters, I would imagine.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:36Josh Horowitz?

  There are some really interesting parallels that the Superman's journey in this film. He is, he is brought down by internet trolls and is saved arguably by love and friendship. That's an interesting parallel to the journey you've been on.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Literally never thought of it.

• 23:52Josh Horowitz?

  Is that true?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:55Josh Horowitz?

  Until this moment, that never occurred to you?

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Uh-uh, no.

• 23:58Josh Horowitz?

  What do you have to say?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  What do I have to say? What do you have to say for yourself, James Gunn?

• 24:03Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not, it's not a defense, but like, I mean, it seems a pretty clear A B.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, he's not really brought down by internet trolls. They just, you know, they add to it. He's brought down by a guy who's trying to murder him.

• 24:17Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, you didn't have that part.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, I mean, the guy's trying to kill him. He puts, you know, stuff in his, I mean, he's, I don't want to spoil, he put those-

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  We're spoilers, we're good, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  He put stuff in his lungs to murder him. Not brought, that's nothing, internet trolls are nothing compared to the nanites in his lungs.

• 24:35Josh Horowitz?

  So when you're writing the monkey bots, et cetera, you're not thinking at all about your own experiences?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  I really am thinking about the fact that governments tire bots-

• 24:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  To, you know, do, create all this mischief.

• 24:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  So it's more about that. But, I mean, is it, you know, is it funny to me? I saw somebody yell something about the movie, and then Mitch Gerards, who's a comic book writer, just responded with the little keyboard emoji and a monkey emoji, and I'm like, oh, I like that, that's funny.

• 25:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I don't know if you ever had a hashtag as good as super shit associated with your name.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  I've had worse, believe me.

• 25:14Josh Horowitz?

  Can we talk about their, Lex and Superman's speeches towards the end?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:18Josh Horowitz?

  That really like, explicate, and only in a movie like this, I think, can you have that kind of speech, I think. That really is like, a fun lean into it, like, this is who I am, this is what I stand for.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:28Josh Horowitz?

  And you really get a clear vision of Superman embracing humanity and wanting desperately to be human, and Lex just being fueled by envy.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:38Josh Horowitz?

  Can you talk a little bit about where those two speeches came from? Were they self-evident?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Well, I always knew, you know-

• 25:47Speaker 02

  That they were later additions in the script.

• 25:51Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  They were from before we were shooting, but like they were later additions. The Superman Lex facing off.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  And, you know, so, I mean, the Lex speech, not the Lex, the Lex speech that he gives to Superman. That was a part, sorry, that was a part of the movie from the very beginning. I mean, like, that was always baked in. But the Superman speech at the end was, was a late addition because I felt like we needed it.

• 26:21Josh Horowitz?

  Just to underline who he is, what's, what's, what's important to him, his values.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, to sum it, sum it up. I mean, to sum up what he's learned, you know? And, and, and that speech was the greatest moment for me on set in my life, maybe. Because it was this great moment where, and we have this all, like, there's a behind the scenes documentary that I think is going to come out with the Blu-ray. And it was, David, as you know, people know by now, who have been reading any, watching, has a lot of questions and he's had a lot, he just questions everything all the time.

• 27:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  And, and he's a very actor-y actor.

• 27:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  And the guys who I'm used to dealing with are Chris Pratt and John Cena. They're my, my, my two stars I work with all the time.

• 27:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  And they don't, they, they, they're not that. They are very boom.

• 27:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  You know, and they just have learned to trust me no matter what.

• 27:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  And.

• 27:24Josh Horowitz?

  It's what you got for hiring Juilliard.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I know, I know. And so, and so, so David is giving the speech and I had so much writing on the speech because I didn't think the movie would work if the speech didn't work. And he came in, I was so nervous about it because I'm like, it could be too cheesy. It could, I may not believe him when he says it. And he comes in and he delivers the speech beautifully. And so I'm like, thank you, Jesus, right? And then I said, okay, that was great. Let's do it again, but do it more intensely. You know, you know, be louder with it.

• 27:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And so David does it again. He does it the way I wanted him to do it and he does it more intensely. I'm like, that's even better. Holy crap. I'm like, David, do it like that, one more time like that, you know? Because like, you know, get. Also remember, so this, the shot is hard because he gives the speech, right? And we have the camera moving forward with them as he gives the speech. Then we pan over to Lex and Lex has to give his speech. Right. Now, Nick Cole is the unsung hero in this story because he's perfect every time. Right. And never misses, but we swing over to Lex and then Lex gives his speech. And then we have to curl around Lex and come around as he's giving his speech.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  And at the exact right moment, with the camera coming to the exact right point about to stop and Lex about to stop his speech, he's got to get hit by Right. Crypto and go down. So Nick has to go like this in the exact The pressure is really on Nick this whole time. So the pressure's on Nick, of course, he, I don't even think about Nick because he's perfect. Yeah. And he's like the favorite son. David's a prodigal son.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  But they know it. They're okay with that.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  No, I love them both. And so, so David, you know, David starts to give the speech again and then he stops and he says, "James, I just don't, I just don't know. I just had this conversation with my father about, you know, you know, this stuff. So I don't feel like I should be, I wouldn't, you know, I'm not sure I would be upset because I've been, you know, kind of cured by my dad and like, you know, it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And I'm like, okay. And so I'm on the, what we call the God mic, talking into him and the other, he's, he's, he's only as far as that. I'm not, he's not far, but he's through a wall, right? And I say, no, David, because of this. And we're having this back and forth going. Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Where, you know, the point of it is, is that just because

• 30:02Speaker 02

  logically. His dad has taught him what's right. It doesn't mean emotionally, the words Lex is saying don't hurt his feelings. Right. And that you can be somewhere with your logic and your emotions are still there. And this is about him owning his emotions and experiencing his emotions and, and being honest in that moment, even though he, his dad, you know, his conversation with his dad changed him forever. Right. And he came in and I was saying it in a much stronger way than that. And David came in and he was, I actually see him come in and the other room and he's like, I just, and I'm like, and I'm like, no, you feel this. It's in here. It's about what's in your heart. And I'm hitting him in the heart.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden David looks at me and he goes, got it. And then he walks back in stage and he delivers the speech and it's absolutely like beautiful. And I learned something that day because, you know, I learned that my, you know, David's way was great. My way was better, but when David and I were on the same page, that was the best. That's what it's about. Film is a collaborative medium and it was, it was fantastic. And, and I got teary eyed. It was, it was one of my favorite days on set. David wrote me afterwards, said, this is my favorite day ever, you know, with a director, you know?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  And so it was, it was a really great moment and that's, that's our relation. I mean, that explains my relationship with David better than anything, you know? And it's just, he's, he is a really talented guy and, and a, and a good friend and, um, you know, but, but he's, he's a handful. You know, and David's my crypto.

• 31:59Josh Horowitz?

  He's just irascible. He just gets on your skin. He's just can't be controlled, can't be contained. Let's talk a little casting, since you mentioned David. So the war is, and we know, obviously, Nick was one of the finalists. It was, it was, it was David, Nick, and an actor, I believe, Tom Brittany was brought in.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  So I'm gonna take a risk and say, yeah, it was Tom, who is amazing. He's tested for me a couple of times. He's one of my favorite actors in the world, and I normally don't say when an actor tests, because that's up to the actor to say if they want to test. But I'm gonna say, in this case, that Tom Brittany tested, and he's an amazing actor, and I hope to use him someday, and I hope, you know, other people are turned on to this guy, because he's just, he keeps being near misses, you know?

• 32:47Josh Horowitz?

  Were Nick and Tom's takes interesting in their own way?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, they were so good. They were so different and so good. Yeah, Tom, Tom, Tom was really fantastic, yeah.

• 32:57Josh Horowitz?

  There was talk that you went to Bradley initially for Lex Luthor.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  I did talk to Bradley about it. We had a short conversation, and at the end, I think, you know, I did want, I did want Lex to be someone that was more contemporary of, of Superman's.

• 33:14Josh Horowitz?

  Did you write it in a specific way with an age, like, associated in the script?

• 33:17Speaker 02

  I didn't write it as an age, but like, I just, I, I think that Lex Luthor is important to Superman. I think he's also important to the future of the DC Universe, and I thought it was probably better. But, yeah, Bradley would have been a great Lex. I mean, he's, Bradley's created everything.

• 33:34Josh Horowitz?

  He's pretty good. Was there ever a, you could have had Lex be a physical adversary, obviously, in the, in the comics, he does Don.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've still got plenty of time, man.

• 33:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So in this initial-

• 33:46Speaker 02

  We see the, we see the early prototypes of that suit.

• 33:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right, of course. So never in this script, though, you never had him as a physical adversary? All right, let's talk, the biggest question that people have asked, probably you already, is about Dorel and Laura's message. Is it real? Has it been doctored? Is that the, the actual message?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  How can someone not think it's real?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  How can someone, I don't understand, like, we did this, so in the test screens, people were like, is it real? You know, with AI, nobody trusts anything. Okay, in the movie.

• 34:19Josh Horowitz?

  You make a point of saying, Mr. Terrific says it's real.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Mr. Terrific says, I know those computer forensics guys, there's no way. That's Mr. Terrific, as smart as Lex Luthor. Then I have Maury, the Secretary of Defense, say, I think whatever you think about Luther, but it's real. And then the clincher is that Gerkos and Lex are walking together.

• 34:44Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  And, you know, Gerkos says, ah, you doctor the message, this is great. And Lex says, it's not a message, you know, it's not doctor, it's real. And who thought his own parents would be the ones to bring him down?

• 34:57Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. We just clarified, just for the record, I just want to get it down. Are there implications for this going forward? Or have you dealt with this? I mean, do you imagine this being dealt with in future Superman stories?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, I think he deals with it in this story, pretty much. I mean, I think that this story, at the heart of it, is a story about a guy who's doing things he thinks for reasons outside of himself.

• 35:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Comes to realize, through the love of a parental figure, his father and mother, that he is not doing things because of someone outside himself. He's doing things because of, that's what he believes. It's not an outside force telling him what to do or what to think. He's doing it, it's not destiny.

• 35:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  It's his own choice.

• 35:42Josh Horowitz?

  There are, there are also echoes of Star Wars ego yandu in that, in this kind of like trio. Has that, I mean, in terms of like, the dad that's the birth father.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:55Josh Horowitz?

  That betrays you, that isn't who you think.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 35:58Josh Horowitz?

  The adopted father who really is.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:00Josh Horowitz?

  The moral compass.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I, I, yeah, I don't know. So I have a lot of adopted kids in my family.

• 36:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  My best friend is adopted. A few of my best friends are adopted. I don't know what, why it is that that, those themes speak to me, but they do.

• 36:20Josh Horowitz?

  You, so we've talked a little bit about some changes in the, in the process of test screening, et cetera. You thank, I believe, Drew Goddard, who you've mentioned, Damon Lindelof.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:29Josh Horowitz?

  Any specific notes from those two gentlemen?

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Drew was a really helpful one. So we had three or four things that were. You know, heatedly debated throughout this, this movie. Now's the time. Okay, saving the squirrel. Okay. Heatedly debated. Just too much, too silly. Too much, like some audience members didn't, why is he saving a squirrel?

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Cause it's a cute little adorable squirrel that was about to be crushed by a tail. Those are sociopaths, those audience. I was. Come on. It wasn't a small amount of people. A lot of squirrel haters out there. Who knew? And this is in Los Angeles. Like Michael Rooker, he eats squirrels. He does. Of course. He does. He hunts and eats squirrels. Like that's, that's for real. That's not a joke. So, uh, the squirrel was a huge debate.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Another debate was, and this was, this was probably the biggest, there was two biggest ones. The other debate was, um, Guy Gardner didn't call him a wuss in the first cut. He called him something else. The P word, I assume. Yes, yes, okay. And it got an enormous laugh, an enormous laugh. Because he said, you know, he said, don't be such a, and then he's, and then Clark goes, and this is what was cut. Clark goes, hey, there are kids here. And then Guy goes, I said, don't be. And then he walks away.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  And so that was a big debate, whether we're going to keep that word in.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  And there were a couple of other little things, but the other big one was, does Jimmy smile at the end when Eve hugs him? Oh, interesting. That's the biggest. Okay. I think that, that one in the P word. So it's like, so he, at the end, um, at the end, Jimmy, we had different versions of Eve. And I got him on purpose. So Eve hugs Jimmy. And in one version, he just smiles. And another version, he just stares out into the, the dark void. That goes on forever. Relatable, you know, like. And then the third version, he kind of like looks. Accepts his fate. And then he gives into it and smiles because she did save the day. She is the unsung hero of the movie. Absolutely. Selfie saved the day. Selfie saved the day.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  So, uh, so, so there were three different versions.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  I will admit, I was, although I was pro girl, I was pro void.

• 39:00Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Peter Safran was very pro smile. And, uh, and we argued about this, uh, although it wasn't as heated as the P word arguments.

• 39:08Josh Horowitz?

  What about, I also heard that maybe Lex's actions were a little bit darker, that, that, that he went even further. Um, I mean, I mean, kills a guy point blank, but like, did you have the tone back a bit of Lex's behavior?

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, there's a really dark thing in there. That's, there was a really dark thing, but it was never a big. Once I saw the movie, I'm like, this is.

• 39:27Josh Horowitz?

  What was it?

• 39:28Speaker 02

  So, oh my God, it's so bad. So, so, so Lex shoots a guy in the head.

• 39:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  That was always done in this extreme wide, so it's not too graphic. But the guy fell on the ground. And blood is pouring out onto the platform. And Lex looks down and he sees that the blood is about to get on his shoes. And he's like, oh my God, my shoes. Be like, he's very, you know, it's like me, he's very OCD. Like I don't like. So he's like, oh my God, my shoes. He's like, Gercos, get down on the ground and soak, soak up the blood.

• 40:07Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  And Gercos goes, what? No. And Nick looks at him, he's, the delivery is great, cause he just looks at him and he looks at him straight and he's like, no. And then Gercos just sheepishly like.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Sadly trudges forward and lays down on his back. And he's, I was like, it's so funny. And he lays down on his back and then just starts soaking up the blood. And then Nick looks over it, you know, Superman says, I'll see you tomorrow. And then they, they drive away, Mr. Handsome, take me away. And so. That was a scene we shot.

• 40:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  But.

• 40:48Josh Horowitz?

  You knew even that.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  I cut it pretty early from the movie, so that was never, I don't even think it was ever even a, it wasn't ever even in a test screening.

• 40:55Josh Horowitz?

  Can we talk a little bit, Hall of Justice, the mural, we do see some.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, the mural's cool, right?

• 41:00Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So people are now starting to pick it apart and see some notable faces.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Who do they think?

• 41:05Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, Jay Garrick, Flash, uh, Alan.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Really?

• 41:09Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Alan Scott, Green Lantern.

• 41:14Josh Horowitz?

  I don't think so.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  I gotta, I gotta look at the

• 41:17Josh Horowitz?

  Doctor Fate in there?

• 41:18Speaker 02

  I think Doctor Fate's in there, yeah.

• 41:20Josh Horowitz?

  Were any other characters considered for the Justice Gang? But besides the ones you landed on Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, all over the place?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Not that I remember. I mean, you know, I don't, I, not that I remember.

• 41:31Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  They happen to be three of my favorites, so I just kinda was picking my favorite, my favorite children.

• 41:36Josh Horowitz?

  Any other villains? We obviously have Lex, but you could have done Brainiac.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Brainiac was considered, yeah.

• 41:42Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  I think, I think that, that was sort of considered, but yeah.

• 41:46Josh Horowitz?

  Um, everyone pronounces it differently, Mixa- Plick. I feel like if anyone could do it, maybe you could do it.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Mr. Mixa- Plixit?

• 41:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, uh, yeah, I, I, uh, no.

• 41:58Josh Horowitz?

  You could have, Ultraman could have, I could have seen a version where that's Bizarro, literally Bizarro Superman.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 42:05Josh Horowitz?

  Is that, this is your take on Bizarro, or could Bizarro Superman be something that we see at some point?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Well, we'll have to see where we go next. That's a very vague answer, but.

• 42:16Josh Horowitz?

  That means I'm hitting Peter, I'm hitting the good stuff.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  No, it just mean, or it just means I don't know what the hell I'm doing yet.

• 42:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, well, let's get to that. We do know you are writing a script, you've been writing.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:27Josh Horowitz?

  Which is another Superman-involved story.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:31Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough to say?

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Totally fair enough to say.

• 42:33Josh Horowitz?

  You have been cagey, though, in saying it's not

• 42:35Speaker 02

  I've been very cagey.

• 42:36Josh Horowitz?

  Not exactly a Superman sequel, per se.

• 42:42Josh Horowitz?

  Here's what I, okay, from the fan perspective, one of the regrets around post-Man of Steel was, we never got like another Superman adventure.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right? We never got, Henry didn't get his shot in another Superman movie.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 42:53Josh Horowitz?

  So make me feel better, like.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  It's, it's, Superman is very important. It's not like, and it isn't Batman versus Superman, it isn't.

• 43:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, it's not, it's not world's finest Batman, Superman, okay. Okay. This is getting touchy territory. Um, this is intended to be the next one you direct? Is there a timeline in when?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:13Josh Horowitz?

  You think we might hear about this?

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:15Josh Horowitz?

  Sooner than later?

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:17Josh Horowitz?

  Like this week?

• 43:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Can we, I like interviews where I just say yes or no.

• 43:25Josh Horowitz?

  You're enjoying?

• 43:26Speaker 02

  I'm gonna do that. The next press tour, I'm just gonna be, okay, everybody, only yes or no questions. It'll be so much less stressful.

• 43:35Josh Horowitz?

  The audience loves all of these characters and there's already talk, supposedly, Mr. Terrific. People love Mr. Terrific.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, they love Mr. Terrific. They love Jimmy Olsen. They love Eve. I mean, everybody. I mean, it's like, it's, it's, it's great. Guy Gardner.

• 43:48Josh Horowitz?

  So how far along it sounds like Mr. Terrific and Jimmy are both being considered for series?

• 43:53Speaker 02

  That's what.

• 43:58Josh Horowitz?

  One could see a Daily Planet show with Jimmy front and center. That doesn't seem like a crazy.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  One could see that, Josh.

• 44:09Josh Horowitz?

  Should we talk about Batman for a second?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 44:12Josh Horowitz?

  The hardest.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  That don't hurt.

• 44:16Josh Horowitz?

  The good news is you got the script.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  I mean, Guy Gardner's gonna be in Lanterns.

• 44:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, we know.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Can we talk about the things that we are out there? What I've actually said, as opposed to the whispers online that are sometimes made up and sometimes real?

• 44:30Josh Horowitz?

  I'm trying to clarify things.

• 44:39Speaker 04

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• 45:09Speaker 06

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• 45:40Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we do know Matt Reeves did deliver the script.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:43Josh Horowitz?

  And we know, we know you read it and you seem very pleased.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  I like it, yes.

• 45:46Josh Horowitz?

  So on track for that release date, we feel like now we're, we're headed in the right direction?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, for sure. We're headed in the right direction. So there's some things we've still got to work out. But like it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's headed in the right direction for sure.

• 45:59Josh Horowitz?

  So, look, we've had this conversation before, but I'm going to bring up the Batman DCU stuff like again. So we obviously Brave and the Bold, we know is being written and the DCU Batman is still intended to be a different Batman than Rob. I guess my question is like timeline wise, like how does this work? Like is there, you, I presume you wouldn't want to release Brave and Bold and the Batman two in the same calendar year. Like starts to get a little confusing or, or no, you tell me, I mean, to have two Batman running around at the same time.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  You probably not, but yeah, probably not. No.

• 46:32Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Probably not the same calendar year. Yeah.

• 46:35Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, is Brave and Bold when you think we'll see that Batman for the first time?

• 46:42Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say that.

• 46:43Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 46:47Josh Horowitz?

  Have you gotten into casting yet in your head?

• 46:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Why are you winking it?

• 46:57Josh Horowitz?

  What do you think about the fans that talk about someone like Alan Richson?

• 47:03Speaker 02

  I, I am a big Alan Richson fan.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Both as an actor and as a guy.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  I, I, I, let's just wait to see what happens.

• 47:15Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay. I guess my only other thing I'll say on that front and then I'll move on, I promise is again, and you can say anything you want or nothing at all. But like when you're casting that role, it would seem to me you have to differentiate in some substantial way, the take on Batman. So it doesn't get confusing, right? Like whether it's a different age, a different vibe, something. Is that in your head? Like when we get there?

• 47:37Speaker 02

  That's always gonna be the case. Yeah. What two Batmans have the same vibe?

• 47:41Josh Horowitz?

  Well.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Clooney and Kilmer?

• 47:44Josh Horowitz?

  That's fair. Okay, okay.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  I mean, just because, but they're the same director.

• 47:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So it's like.

• 47:51Josh Horowitz?

  It's dictated by the material and the take.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  The material, the take.

• 47:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Of course, the actors, you know, actors aren't important.

• 47:58Josh Horowitz?

  We want nothing else.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  No, I, listen, and do I ever think about it? Sure, there's people out there I think about, but let's see where the script comes in.

• 48:04Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  It's not the furthest along thing. I mean, we have things that are much, much further along than.

• 48:08Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, let's talk about the further along. Supergirl's in the can.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Supergirl's in the can. Peacemaker. Don't we have Peacemaker 2?

• 48:15Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna be talking about that in about a week. I'm very excited about.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Peacemaker 2 is a direct follow-up to Superman. We have, you know, we have so many characters from, uh, Rick Flag's in it. Uh, Hawkgirl, Maxwell Lord, uh, you know, Guy Gardner. So it's, it's the direct follow-up to Superman.

• 48:30Josh Horowitz?

  And.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Very R-rated.

• 48:32Josh Horowitz?

  I can't wait. I can't wait. Um, we are gonna see, we're gonna see, um, not only Lobo, but Crypto in Supergirl.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Lobo is so frickin' awesome. Jason Momoa is so, oh my god, yeah.

• 48:45Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, we've all agreed, like, this was like the easiest casting ever in.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  It was. Well, he pushed himself on me too, I gotta say. But he, uh, yeah, Lobo is great. And then, um, uh, and, uh, and that's great. And then we have, um, uh, Lanterns coming out, which, which is great. We have Clayface, which is about to go into production.

• 49:06Josh Horowitz?

  You've cast your Clayface, you have James Watkins directing, this is gonna be.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Mike Flanagan script, yep.

• 49:10Josh Horowitz?

  And, and you've said the script is what sold you, as it's always gonna sell you.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:14Josh Horowitz?

  This is.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  A total horror movie. Like, really, it's like, it could be a Blumhouse, you know, big budget horror film. And, um, it's, it's, but it's within the DCU, which I think is a cool thing to do.

• 49:26Josh Horowitz?

  Let me just run down a few others. You tell me as much as you want or not. So like, are we anywhere on like a Wonder Woman script?

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah?

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:35Josh Horowitz?

  You feel like there's a take, there's a direction?

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:38Josh Horowitz?

  That feels distinct from what we've seen before?

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, very. Yes.

• 49:41Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm excited about, very, very excited about Wonder Woman right now.

• 49:45Josh Horowitz?

  Well, do you anticipate seeing something like a new Flash, a new Aquaman in the next few years, or is that a little ways off?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say the next two years for either of those characters.

• 49:54Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Okay. The Authority, still on your mind?

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Ah, yeah, but it's been, that's been a rough one.

• 50:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, just harder to crack, harder to...

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I moved, the writer moved on to do another project in the DCU that I think, uh, he's really killing right now, so.

• 50:12Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Uh, and that project would be?

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Another, another movie.

• 50:17Josh Horowitz?

  That we haven't talked about?

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:19Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Swamp Thing, has Mangold delivered a script?

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Uh, we talked to James the other day, so I, uh, no, he hasn't delivered a script. It's, you know, he's been distracted with his billions of movies.

• 50:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  But I think, uh, you know, we're, we're talking about it again, so.

• 50:32Josh Horowitz?

  And it's, I mean, Sergeant Rock seemed like it was very close. Do you still have hopes that it's gonna come back around relatively soon?

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Hugely.

• 50:40Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  That's, it's, yeah, I'm really excited about Sergeant.

• 50:45Josh Horowitz?

  And with Luca still involved?

• 50:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 50:47Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Okay. Um. Is there one filmmaker? If you had your druthers, you could, if you could lure anybody into the DCU? Who, who would you grab?

• 51:03Josh Horowitz?

  Make your pitch.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Matt Reeves.

• 51:07Josh Horowitz?

  You already got him.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 51:09Josh Horowitz?

  All the way to the DCU.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  He's not in the DCU.

• 51:12Josh Horowitz?

  Have you talked to, you must have talked to him about it?

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, Matt, Matt to me, you know, like, listen, Matt, I lo, I love the, I love the people that are out there making pop movies that are still, you know, it's Matt Reeves, it's Greta Gerwig, it's Ryan Coogler.

• 51:28Josh Horowitz?

  It's their vision, it's their...

• 51:29Speaker 02

  It's the guys that, you know, and, and, and I'm friendly with all those people and they, they just, they're, they're making big movies that still have, uh, you know, themselves in it.

• 51:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, they're personal, yet they resonate with everybody.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  And so I really, I love people that are taking risks in, uh, the area of spectacle film, because most of the stuff out there is not a risk, it's just...

• 51:55Josh Horowitz?

  You know.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  It's disposable.

• 51:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  It's, you know, I, I love disposable stuff.

• 52:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  But let's make it good disposable.

• 52:02Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's like, I love big popcorn movies, but it's just like, it gets to be, you know, boring when they're all the same.

• 52:11Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I'll end with this. What's the barometer of success? If I taught, when we talk in five years or 10 years and you're presumably still at DC? I mean, is it about who you've introduced? What you've done, like what you've led to? I mean, what, how are you gauging your own success?

• 52:26Speaker 02

  James, what is your relationship with your wife like now? That she's forgiven you for disappearing for three years, you know?

• 52:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's, it's really, it is, the barometer of success is, for me, am I enjoying myself creatively? And I have enjoyed myself creatively over the past three years. But it's also, it's just been too much. I've done too much, which is like, it needed to be done. This is a kickstarting this whole enterprise. So I needed to do too much. But I, I've, it was, it was too much. Um, and I need to, uh, balance out my, my life with my work. Um, and then hopefully that will make my work even better.

• 53:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  You know?

• 53:12Speaker 02

  And I'm, and I'm not stupid enough to say, oh, if I love the movie, then it's a success. Because it's, it's not.

• 53:18Josh Horowitz?

  Thankfully, it's not that easy.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, but what I think of the movie itself isn't really the most important thing. What I think of the process of making the movie.

• 53:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Now that belongs to me. The movie isn't mine. The movie belongs to everybody else.

• 53:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  But the process, that's belongs to me. So if there is a metric for success, it's going to be like, over the past few years, did you, I don't want to say enjoy yourself, but was it rich? Was it fulfilling?

• 53:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Was it, was it purposeful? You know? Those are the things that, that I really look for. And luckily I'm making, you know, this movie in particular, did feel purposeful from the very beginning because I sat down with the cast and crew. On the night, we had dinner the night before we started shooting. And we're like, this is a film about goodness.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  And everybody believed in that, you know, because I have been extraordinarily blessed to have really good people around me on this project, and they're flawed, just like Lois and Clark, more than Lois and Clark. But they're all really good people, this cast, this crew. And I'm, and we all believed in this movie so much. And to see it doing so well by every metric.

• 54:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Is, is, is, is, ah, man, it feels good.

• 54:48Josh Horowitz?

  Get some rest. You deserve it. I will say, speaking on behalf of millions that don't get a chance to say it to your face, I've seen it a couple of times and I feel happy. I feel hopeful. I feel invigorated and excited and I feel like a kid again when I watch these movies, this movie. Congratulations. Like, it's a tough feat to like, create a different Superman movie than we've ever seen. We've seen a lot of Superman movies and this one's really special.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 55:12Josh Horowitz?

  So rest easy and I'll talk to you really soon.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Thank you. I'll see you at Comic Con.

• 55:15Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly. You did it.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. Thank you.

• 55:21Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 55:39Speaker 07

  For eight years, we've been asking the same question over and over again. How did this happen? My name's Mandy. And I'm Melissa and we're the hosts of Moms and Mysteries, the true crime podcast with over 55 million downloads. We're two Florida moms who are obsessed with mysteries. Each week, we do deep dives into fascinating true crime stories. We cover everything from infamous cases like Casey Anthony to the bizarre and complex crimes right here in our home state, like the shocking murder of FSU Professor Dan Markel. We bring you the facts, but with warmth and wit you'd only get from two friends who have been hooked on mysteries since childhood. Join us for new episodes of Moms and Mysteries every Tuesday and Thursday. Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.