117. When Is a Negative a Positive?

Sure, we all like to hear compliments. But if you're truly looking to get better at something, it's the negative feedback that will get you there.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing

• 0:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Amica. You know what they say, if you want to go fast, go alone.

• 1:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you want to go far, go together. So, go with Amica and get coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, one that looks after what's important to you together. Auto, home, life, and more, coverage that fits your unique needs. Amica helps you protect what matters most. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 1:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  From APM, American Public Media and WNYC,

• 2:36Speaker 01

  this is Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace. Here's the host of Marketplace, Kai Rizdal.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Time now for a little Freakonomics Radio. It's that moment every couple of weeks. We talk to Stephen Dubner, the co-author of the books and the blog of the same name, The Hidden Side of Everything, is what he does. Dubner, welcome back.

• 2:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, Kai, thanks for having me back.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  All right, man.

• 2:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, last month, you know, we New Yorkers lost a legend, former congressman and mayor Ed Koch. Now Koch was unique in a few ways, including the fact that he actively solicited feedback from the public.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Just serendipitously, on one occasion, I said, I'm Ed Koch, I'm your congressman, how am I doing? People stopped to tell me, and I knew I was onto something.

• 3:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Kai, this got me to thinking about feedback generally. It strikes me that a lot of people say they want feedback, but I'm not so sure they really do, especially if there's a chance it'll be negative feedback.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  You know, man, who wants to be told they're doing something wrong? Forget it.

• 3:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's probably right. But the fact is that if you really want to get better at something, it's hard to do that without feedback, whether it's, you know, your job, or a sport, or schoolwork. So I wanted to know the latest academic thinking on feedback.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  All right, well, give it up. What'd you find?

• 3:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, let's start with the fact that there are obviously at least two different kinds of feedback, right? Positive and negative. As it turns out, they each produce their own Positive feedback is really helpful when you're trying to increase someone's commitment. So let's say, you know, someone new to a job or a project. Here is Stacy Finkelstein, a Columbia management professor who's been studying feedback. Okay.

• 4:13Speaker 04

  For these people, positive feedback is most motivating. It's what signals that there's value to what they're doing, they like what they're doing, or that they might achieve their goal at some point.

• 4:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  But here's the thing, Kai. Once somebody really buys into that goal, positive feedback has diminishing returns. So if you're looking for actual improvement, you've got to start going negative. Okay? Here is Heidi Grant Halberson. She's a psychologist also at Columbia.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  This seems fraught.

• 4:38Speaker 05

  Look, doling out negative feedback is not fun. It's embarrassing, you know, we feel terrible, we feel guilty. So we love hearing, hey, maybe I don't have to give negative feedback. Maybe I can just say positive things. And if I just keep saying positive things, then somehow this person will work to their fullest potential and everything will turn out fine. And that just turns out to not be the case.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Well, wait, how do you know that's not the case?

• 4:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so I'll tell you about the research that Stacy Finkelstein and a co-author, Aileth Fishback, at the University of Chicago did. They ran a series of experiments with people in a variety of realms, some novices, some experts. And granted, these are only experiments, but this is the best they could do for now. And they wanted to see how different people handle feedback at different stages of their expertise. And the results argue quite strongly that novices really need the positive feedback, but that experts just start to tune it out. So here's Fishback.

• 5:29Speaker 06

  The more a person is committed to a goal, the more negative compared with positive feedback will be efficient.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  But, but, Dunder, people are fragile, man. I mean, you don't want to hurt people's feelings. I come out of the studio and somebody says, man, that interview stunk. I hurt my feelings.

• 5:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, I guess there are two ways to look at this. You can either look at trying to make people happy or try to make people better. If you want to make people happy, you know, well, maybe. Look, if you don't want to get better, that's your prerogative, right? If you do, then it's critical feedback that's going to help get you there. Now, I'm not saying you should eliminate positive feedback or that you should, you know, deliver the negative feedback in a way that makes people weep.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Well, give me, give me, give me a for instance here, would you?

• 6:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, I'm so glad you asked, Kai. So. As you know, I'm a really big fan of Marketplace.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yes, I appreciate that.

• 6:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think you do a great job as a host.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

• 6:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  I would like to look at a couple of recent examples of your work. I've noticed you're smooth as silk on most domestic matters, but I think that you might want to think about practicing your foreign pronunciations a bit more before you get on the air. Here, listen to this one, Kai.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  If you want to know where those reactors built like Fukushima rather than Alex mentioned. You are so fired. All right, we're going to turn off your microphone. We're done. Steve and Dubner.

• 6:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hang on, there's another.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  The prospect of a quarter million new Romanian Bulgarians. Romanians, rather, and Bulgarians. What are Romanian Bulgarians?

• 6:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  You remember them? Yeah. And here's a little something else I think you could maybe improve on, Kai. This is interesting. This is kind of a trademark phrase of yours, I found.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  A final thought on the way out, which goes like this. This final note on the way out in which Boris Johnson, the mayor of the City of London. This final note as we leave off today, the end of the beginning, perhaps, at the I hate you. This final note on the way out today. We did a thing a couple of months ago. You know what? This may well be your final note, pal.

• 7:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Possibly, but before I go, let me just offer this.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  There's more?

• 7:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Constructive feedback. No, here's the thing. I have nothing against the final note or on the way out, but together, they're just redundant. So what about cutting one of them? And just think, Kai, just think of all the extra time you'll save over the course of a year, maybe enough time to actually run an extra couple Freakonomics radio segments.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Or five minutes every two weeks that we don't have to have you on. How about that? Would that be all right, too?

• 7:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Please, no.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Steven Dubner, Freakonomics.com is his website. We'll see you.

• 7:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  I hope so.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Maybe. I don't know.

• 8:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. Coming up next week on Freakonomics Radio, there ain't no such thing as a free parking spot.

• 8:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's about the nightmare that parking can be, especially in a place like New York. Unless you're someone like Jamie Drake, who's an interior designer. He's worked for, among many others, Madonna and Mayor Bloomberg.

• 8:29Speaker 07

  Well, many friends or acquaintances, when you say where you live. First, I'll start by, I live at 24th and 11th. And then they sort of, if they're known New York, their mind starts to, and they go, you live in the building with the garage. I mean, it is iconic at this point.

• 8:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's right. Drake's building, which is quite posh, has what it calls a Sky Garage. Every apartment has its own garage, attached to the apartment, reached by a separate automobile elevator. We tested it out. So that's Garage Exit there. Yeah. You're right. Yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 07

  You drive in from 11th Avenue.

• 9:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right, so we turned in, and we just pull around. Welcome. Call up the wait. The elevator's been called for you.

• 9:11Speaker 07

  You pull into the garage head first.

• 9:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we're off.

• 9:14Speaker 07

  You ascend to your floor.

• 9:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  So we don't get a view out of the elevator.

• 9:17Speaker 07

  The doors open, and you back out into your space.

• 9:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you drive in straight, and you're backing.

• 9:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow.

• 9:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, mama, look at the view. For the rest of us, parking will never be quite so good. But on next week's podcast, you'll hear from some pioneers in the effort to make parking everywhere a little bit better for everybody. Talk to you then.

• 10:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting, and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data, so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.

• 10:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 11:04Speaker 08

  How's the new place? Get your Wi-Fi figured out? I got T-Mobile 5G home internet and I'm loving it. It's the fastest 5G home internet. My old provider was so slow, mine is slow, and only $35 a month. Do I need to try this? Try it for 15 days. Love it or get your money back. I love it already.

• 11:21Speaker 09

  There are over 250 reasons to join T-Mobile. Find yours and check availability at tmobile.com/homeinternet.

• 11:28Speaker 10

  This is according to Oathless Beat Intelligence. Data second half of 2025. All rights reserved. We're being money back guarantee within 30 days of cancellation.

• 11:34Speaker 11

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.