Pod Insights Pop Culture Happy Hour Avatar: Fire And Ash and What’s Making Us Happy About this episode In Avatar: Fire and Ash, James Cameron’s saga continues in a visually stunning movie full of epic battles, uneasy alliances, human assimilation, and debates with whales. The film follows the Na’vi (aka blue guys) as they’re chased by a human military that seeks both resources and revenge. The cast includes Sigourney Weaver, Zoe Saldaña, and Sam Worthington.
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0:20 Stephen Thompson? James Cameron's Avatar series has produced some of the most expensive and lucrative films ever made. Set on a faraway moon, trillions of miles from Earth, the movies tell ambitious stories about a clan who must fend off a human military invasion. In Avatar: Fire and Ash, the story continues, in a visually stunning, nearly three and a half hour movie full of epic battles, uneasy alliances, human assimilation, and debates with whales. I'm Stephen Thompson. Joining me today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is freelance music and culture journalist, Rihanna Cruz. Hi, Rihanna. Hey, Stephen. Also with us is writer Chris Klimick. Hey, Chris.
1:00 Speaker 02 Yes, Stephen, I've asked you repeatedly to introduce me by the title I have earned, Taruk Makto. Maybe next time.
1:06 Stephen Thompson? Have you been learning Navi just for this conversation?
1:09 Speaker 02 Papyrus subtitles beneath my face say yes. Yes, I have.
1:13 Stephen Thompson? All right. It took more than a decade for director and co-writer James Cameron to make a sequel to his audacious special effects blockbuster Avatar, but the wait paid off handsomely with Avatar: The Way of Water a few years ago. The film grossed billions of dollars worldwide and was nominated for a Best Picture Oscar. Now Cameron returns with another chapter called Avatar: Fire and Ash, in which the Navi, they're the blue guys, are chased by a human military that seeks both resources and revenge on the Navi. They're especially interested in the one with the very non-Navi name Jake Sully, played by Sam Worthington. He's a former human marine who switched sides and bodies in the first film. In Avatar: Fire and Ash, the human military is still largely personified by
1:57 Stephen Thompson? Colonel Miles Quaritch, played by Stephen Lang.
2:00 Speaker 03 You want to spread your fire across the world? Yeah.
2:06 Speaker 03 I'll give you guns. I'll give you comms, RPGs, or that strong magic. Command from a distance, strike like lightning.
2:19 Stephen Thompson? The military teams up with a clan led by the fearsome Varang, played by Una Chaplin. Suffice it to say that summing up the plot beyond that would take a very long time. And besides, what really stands out here is the spectacle of it all. The visuals, the hyper realistic alien realms, the stunning water effects, and the many, many, many, many battles. Avatar: Fire and Ash is in theaters now, though I think I can speak for James Cameron when I say that the experience would lose nothing if you wait and watch it later on your phone. Rihanna Cruz, I'm gonna start with you. What did you think of the latest installment?
2:53 Speaker 04 All right, I was very excited to plug into the Tree of Ewa for this one, Fire and Ash.
3:00 Stephen Thompson? You know the lore. You're already one step ahead.
3:02 Speaker 04 I'm locked in, baby. I'm an Avatar head, you know? I spoke on the episode that we did on Way of Water, the three of us, I think, exactly.
3:10 Stephen Thompson? That's right. We're reconvening the council.
3:12 Speaker 04 Absolutely, for Pop Culture Happy Hour. And, you know, I said that I walked out of the Way of Water and I was upset that I left Pandora. And since then, I've been kind of itching to visit my friends again, as I call them. My friends Pya Khan, my friends Loak, et cetera, et cetera. No, but here's the thing. I know these movies are flawed. I know these movies have their issues. I know that there are plot details that you could see from a mile away. I know the metaphors are clumsy. I know that certain characters, you don't really know what to do with them, namely Spider, right? But the thing is, is that I don't really care, frankly. I need theatrical experiences, especially in this day and age.
3:57 Speaker 04 Stephen, you mentioned the word spectacle, and that's what I came away from Fire and Ash with, is that, you know, I know that the plot isn't the best. I know that the character motivations are one dimensional. But I'm really there to see... What James Cameron can do with the cinematic medium. I'm there to see the aforementioned battles. I'm there to see what he does with the space of Pandora. And in that, I really was satisfied. I mean, I left Fire and Ash thinking that it was a great addition to the franchise. Way of Water has become one of my favorite movies over the past few years, frankly.
4:37 Speaker 04 And this did not reach those heights for me, but still was a pretty solid entry into the franchise. And I will be going back and seeing it. Hashtag see it five times as me and the Avatar lovers have come up with. So I enjoyed it.
4:53 Stephen Thompson? Ah, so that's why those movies have made eight billion dollars.
4:56 Speaker 04 There is a campaign for Avatar Fire and Ash. That's like almost in jest. That's like hashtag see it five times.
5:04 Stephen Thompson? This is some Taylor Swift stan culture. Buy 25 copies of The Life of a Showgirl to help it on the charts energy.
5:11 Speaker 04 I know. I don't ride for any other franchises like this. Like, I'm not a franchise lover. Avatar, I'm like, there's a hint of irony to it and that's why I love it. Like, it's so sincere that I really dig it.
5:24 Stephen Thompson? Okay, how about you, Chris?
5:25 Speaker 02 Boy, I wish I could give this more of a full throated endorsement than I'm going to. Certainly, I think my sort of failure to be as jazzed by this as I have by prior installments of Avatar and prior James Cameron movies is maybe down to the release strategy. Because this is not a part three. This is like part two, part two, you know?
5:46 Stephen Thompson? Hmm.
5:46 Speaker 02 There were 13 years that elapsed in the real world between Avatar and Avatar: The Way of Water. Roughly the same amount of time has passed in the story. You know, discounting the fact that like, what's a year on Pandora? It's a part of a different solar system. Who knows? But I mean, they don't have kids in the first movie. Jake and Nateri have four kids, I think, when The Way of Water opened. So, I mean, the story has progressed literally a generation. There's enough expansion of the story and just, you know, physical production value expansion of the world. We get the whole undersea culture, the sentient talking whales, Pya Khan and all that stuff. And the last one, that it was worth the wait, you know, in the same way that like The Empire Strikes Back. So exponentially expanded the world of Star Wars and felt so rewarding and mysterious for that reason.
6:29 Speaker 02 Way of Water, you know, kind of paid off on that long delay. And I think like, had this come out maybe a year after Way of Water, the way that Wicked just did, I might have been a little more responsive to it. But I mean, after a three-year gap, that's just all post-production. I'm sure this is the most complicated, you know, post that any movie has ever had. You do expect more than just like, and here's the rest of what you were just watching. It doesn't expand, it doesn't, you know, iterate in the way that the gap between one and two did. It just feels a little bit like more of the same. And the quality of that more of the same is so high. You know, I feel a little ungrateful saying this, but yeah, I mean, certainly if you care at all about the big screen experience, you gotta go, you gotta go.
7:14 Speaker 02 And I'll be going back a couple more times. I, you know, what's my life worth? I got another six and a half hours for Jim Cameron. Yeah, I wish I could be more enthused.
7:22 Stephen Thompson? I think it's really important when you're watching a film like this. Like, there are very few movies that look this technically advanced, if any, right? Like, these are stunning to look at. There are like visual set pieces in this film that are just absolutely remarkable. And it really is worth taking a moment to just kind of set aside the critical piece of your mind that's maybe not into the storytelling and just take a moment to kind of revel in how beautiful this spectacle looks. Cause it is gorgeous. Where I really struggled with this movie was in the pacing and in the length. And I know that's such a lazy critique to be like, it's too long.
8:05 Stephen Thompson? You know, you spent $400 million in how many years?
8:08 Speaker 02 I was too entertained.
8:10 Stephen Thompson? I was too entertained. Give me less movie. But there are points in this movie, there's one point kind of late in the film where I admit, I kind of peeked at my phone to see what time it was. There was 45 minutes left and I was like, all right, we're gonna bring this baby in for a landing with the most lavish battle of them all. And it's gonna set us up for the fourth film and all that. And then they stop for a debate with the whales. I just was like. This is too much movie. You know how some TV creators will be like, I don't think of my TV show as a TV show. I think of it as an eight hour movie. This feels like five episodes of a very big budget Avatar TV show strung back to back to back to back to back.
8:53 Stephen Thompson? I felt like it felt significantly longer than three hours and 17 minutes, which really takes some doing. There's kind of lore piled on top of lore piled on top of lore, kind of culminating in what I found to be a really actually very anticlimactic final battle. I think that the visual gifts of this team are unparalleled. The risk in that in the long term, and something that I kind of want to get to in our next kind of round of discussion here, particularly from Rihanna, is like, when your movie is so focused on being the state of the art, technologically speaking, the passage of time tends to dull the effect of that as everybody else catches up.
9:38 Stephen Thompson? When I watched the original Avatar, you know, in the run up to The Way of Water three years ago, I was really taken aback by how much it looked like a video game. And I wonder if the effects of these films is going to get dulled as everybody catches up, because as you kind of alluded to, Rihanna, there are faults and flaws in the storytelling, in the characterizations. The whole plot kind of centers on this white savior.
10:05 Speaker 04 Yeah.
10:05 Stephen Thompson? Narrative that we've seen play out a million times. Like, the dialogue is a little video gamey. Are these gonna age well?
10:13 Speaker 04 I mean, that's a great question, and I don't really think so. I think I'm gonna come down and say that I'm not sure, because the flaws with these movies have always been the scripts. You know, I remember like, first one, the classic, you know, meme of unobtanium being the thing that they can't obtain. Like, these things permeate over the course of the franchise. I don't know if they'll age well. I could say, because I watch Way of Water once every like, three months at this point, I've spent a lot of hours of my life in Pandora, and I'm very happy to. Way of Water has aged perfectly, frankly. I don't think the industry has caught up.
10:54 Stephen Thompson? No.
10:54 Speaker 04 Yet.
10:55 Stephen Thompson? I agree.
10:55 Speaker 04 I think one day we'll look back on these movies and the spectacle won't be there, and then we can evaluate them perhaps more effectively, perhaps more appropriately. But I think- We don't really get epic, capital E, movies a lot these days. And I think that's really what floors me. There's a lot of narrative threads that like, I kind of just throw out the window. You know, they kind of go to the back of my mind. Every time Spider is on screen, I know I keep bringing him up, like.
11:23 Speaker 02 Oh, boy.
11:24 Stephen Thompson? Spider is the human son of Colonel Korich.
11:27 Speaker 04 Yes.
11:28 Stephen Thompson? Who has sort of become assimilated into the Na'vi.
11:31 Speaker 04 Yeah.
11:32 Stephen Thompson? Like requires the help of like a breathing apparatus to even survive on this planet.
11:36 Speaker 02 And his given name is Miles and his nickname is Spider. And then they give him another nickname, which is Monkey Boy, which if your name is already Spider, just seems like rude. You know, that's a.
11:44 Speaker 04 Yeah.
11:44 Speaker 02 A hat on a hat on a hat.
11:45 Speaker 04 Just his mere character kind of gives me the ick, so to speak.
11:49 Speaker 02 It's not the performance too, though. A little.
11:51 Speaker 04 Yeah.
11:51 Speaker 02 Dramatically expanding his screen time from The Way of Water was not an asset to this film, in my opinion.
11:57 Speaker 04 Well, that's like the one flaw that I have with this movie is that like, I think it spends a little bit too much time on the places that it doesn't need to spend time. I'm totally for the Tulku tribal council, Stephen. I, I thought that was one of my favorite scenes. I don't know what you're talking about.
12:12 Stephen Thompson? They're arguing with whales. It's two and a half hours into the movie.
12:17 Speaker 02 You know, I remember that like, when they introduced the idea that the whales are going to talk in the last one. And Pia Khan's first line subtitled in papyrus is, "It's too painful." I was like, yes, we're doing this. We're subtitling the whales, baby.
12:31 Stephen Thompson? I will say, in defense of the whales, there is at least a full blown action payoff to the whales in this film that I did enjoy.
12:40 Speaker 02 Like the whaling guy who we all cheered when he got his arm severed by a vengeful Moby Dick in the last movie. Like he's back with just a little prosthetic arm. And it's like, you know, that's maybe a metaphor for some of my issues with this movie is like, it does kind of feel like we're just playing all the hits from the last one.
12:56 Speaker 04 Yeah. On the playing the hits part, I think that's why I come down so positively about this movie is because it's essentially Way of Water 2, right? Like it's Way of Water 1.5 or whatever you want to call it. Like it fills the same needs as the last one. And there's even some scenes in Fire and Ash that are kind of bar for bar, exact scenes from Way of Water. Like there's a scene where like. Spider is taken by the humans. He's held in like a cell in the lab or whatever you want to call it. And Korich comes in in Navi form, has basically the same conversation with him that they have in the last movie.
13:34 Speaker 02 Gives him his dog tag again.
13:36 Speaker 04 Again.
13:37 Speaker 02 Like, you did that, Dad?
13:38 Speaker 04 Right. He's like, I'm your father. Spider's like, you're not my dad. They have a dog tag exchange, like same exact conversation.
13:45 Stephen Thompson? Felt like something that maybe wasn't essential to this movie being three hours and 17 minutes long.
13:51 Speaker 04 See, you keep bringing up the runtime, Stephen, but like, I am all for the runtime personally. I think Avatar movies kind of like serves a balm of like the age we live in, you know? Because like, we live in an era of like attention grabbing slop between like TikTok, Netflix originals, whatever. I love the Avatar movies because they're so devoted to the craft of filmmaking. And that's like, not something you really see anymore. It's a movie that's designed to immerse you in a world. And that could probably equate to the video game equalities, but that's what I love about it. It feels very immersive and it feels like I'm making an active choice to go to Pandora and participate in a film,
14:33 Speaker 04 which I do often, you know, I've seen over a hundred movies in theaters this year. But it really compels me and it really draws me in in a way that other movies don't. Because it's so full throatedly for the art of filmmaking and the art of plant and payoff, even though it might not seem like it. There's threads in fire and ash that I noticed being planted in Way of Water that are picked up here and expanded on. I kind of just see them as a whole saga. It reminds me of the Planet of the Apes movies, the Matt Reeves Planet of the Apes franchise.
15:08 Speaker 02 Which does share a set of screenwriters, I think.
15:10 Speaker 04 Oh, does it?
15:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, they were in the writer's room that Cameron assembled for this, which kind of speaks to some of my issues here. Cameron had a writer's room, you know, he wasn't writing all of these solos. So there was certainly ample time and talent on board to iron out some of these issues. I mean, some of this is just the insoluble problem that like, nothing I experienced in my middle aged life will ever be as cool. As you know, seeing Terminator two was at the age I was when Terminator two came out. But Cameron was once like before he was the king of the world, you know, he was the king of economy, the king of stretching a buck. And art really does thrive on restriction, right? I mean, he came out of the Roger Corman workshop, right? Where everything was dirt cheap. And if you weren't in this scene, acting, you were moving lights or painting the set for the next scene,
15:55 Speaker 02 where there was this real DIY aesthetic. And I mean, that does carry through in the sense that Cameron is still famously the guy who can do every job on a movie set, which I'm sure is one of the qualities that makes him such a joy to work for. But yeah, but I mean, I think a little restriction, you know, someone to tell him no could only help him at this point.
16:15 Stephen Thompson? Yeah, I think someone to pare down the script would have helped this movie. But while we're speaking in defense of James Cameron here, I also just want to point out how refreshing it is. As many like kind of issues as I've had with these films over the years, we sometimes lament, you know, how many blockbuster movies are built around old IP. I mean, you mentioned Planet of the Apes, you know, so many of these franchises are really remakes and rehashes, reboots, just kind of recycling old intellectual property. And this is an original story, as many echoes as it has of other stories. This is its own lore. It has its own visual stamp. I give him credit for filmmaking ambition.
16:58 Stephen Thompson? I give him credit for frankly, this movie looks like it cost $400 million.
17:03 Speaker 02 Sure.
17:04 Stephen Thompson? Sometimes you see movies and you see that the budget is 200, 250 million dollars. And you're like, where did that money go? That is not the case here. It looks that expensive. And so I, I still find myself kind of stuck on these movies in admiring them, admiring the technical craft of them, you know, being able to get swept up in the visual spectacle. But some of the emotional beats, and this film is really trying to hit a lot of emotional beats. For whatever reason, those emotional beats just don't hit me as hard as they might in a different franchise.
17:38 Speaker 04 That's interesting. I felt like a lot of the emotional beats landed for me personally, but I was seeing it as kind of this melodrama soap opera, which maybe isn't the intent, right? Like I think maybe James Cameron is seeing it as more of like a prestige drama, but. I was watching the conversations that Jake was having with Nate Terry about like the race of their children as like tea spilling, right? Like, I was like, ooh, like, you're having the mixed-race conversation. Like, I'm tapped in, you know? And I was doing that a lot in this movie, where I was kind of taking the conversations that they were having, stripping away the weight that the movie is giving to it, and being like, oh, like, you guys are having a link-up here, like, and I'm listening to the link-up.
18:20 Speaker 04 Like, when Quarridge is talking to the Firebatty, as I like to call her, I was like, oh, like, this is like El Toxico, La Toxica, like, we're getting into it. And I think that's what makes the movies fun for me, is that I'm watching these, and I'm sitting there with my popcorn, being like, there's drama here. You know, I'm being like spoon-fed drama, and usually I don't really like when movies force-feed me emotion, but the drama here worked for me personally.
18:47 Stephen Thompson? All right, well, I think it's safe to say that wherever we came down on the movie, we all hugely admire the spectacle of it all. We want to know what you think about Avatar: Fire and Ash. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/PCHH, and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/NPRPopCulture. We will have a link in our episode description. Up next, what is making us happy this week?
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20:32 Stephen Thompson? Now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy this week? Rihanna Cruz, I'm going to start with you. What's making you happy this week, buddy?
20:40 Speaker 04 So we talked about a movie filled with spectacle and high-budget antics. I'm pairing it back for my What's Making Me Happy. I picked up a DVD the other week, just finally watched it. Where the Heart Is, from 2000, directed by Matt Williams. It's a Natalie Portman movie in which she is pregnant and lives in a Walmart and has to give birth in the Walmart in Oklahoma. Her boyfriend abandons her roadside. And she's in this town in Oklahoma, and she's meeting all of these quirky characters. Everybody has fun names. You know, Natalie's name in this movie is Novely Nation. Stoker Channing plays a character named Sister Husband. And she kind of finds her way around the town. There's a lot of drama. There's a tornado, this, that, and the third happens.
21:25 Speaker 04 It kind of plays out like a stage play. Where it ended, the credits rolled, I started clapping because I felt like I, like, lived the journey in my living room. But it's really great. Ashley Judd is in it. She's amazing. Joan Cusack, like, a very well-rounded cast, all playing these really interesting southern characters. I had not heard anything about this movie anywhere. My partner was like, I didn't even see this on cable at any point in time. But I recommend it. Where the Heart Is, from 2000, starring Natalie Portman. If Natalie Portman giving birth in a Walmart sounds interesting to you, check it out.
21:59 Stephen Thompson? That is Where the Heart Is? You can find it available to rent online?
22:03 Speaker 04 Oh, amazing. So I went through all that work for nothing. Amazing.
22:09 Stephen Thompson? Nothing wrong with owning physical media.
22:11 Speaker 02 And I have a copy of it on Betamax right here.
22:14 Stephen Thompson? All right. Thank you, Rihanna Cruz. Chris Klemic, what's making you happy this week?
22:17 Speaker 02 Well, on the subject of bifurcated epics, Stephen, I made a trip last weekend up to your backyard, the AFI Silver Theater in glorious Silver Spring, Maryland, to see what I am calling Kill Bill: Bigger, Longer, and So So Many Cuts. The film has actually been released under the title Kill Bill: The Whole Bloody Affair. This is the restoration to a single five-hour endurathon of the two films initially released in 2003 and 2004, directed by Quentin Tarantino. You know, and we spent a lot of time on whether there's enough story in these latter two Avatar movies to warrant the six-and-a-half-hour investment. Kill Bill is just a revenge story with Uma Thurman playing a former member of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad who's out to-
23:00 Stephen Thompson? Talk about so many battles.
23:01 Speaker 02 Get even Steven with the man who killed her wedding party and so she thinks killed her unborn child. And really seeing this as a single unbroken experience, although there is a 15-minute intermission included in the presentation, just does make it richer, more thrilling, more everything. I was particularly moved, since we talked about the way the pacing slows down towards the end of Fire and Ash, as like, again, as you said, after some of the most incredible martial arts fights you have ever seen in any movie, when we finally get to the confrontation with the villain David Carradine, it unfolds just as a conversation and then a very quick hippie battle, just when you feel like your endurance truly is at an end.
23:44 Speaker 02 I cannot handle another 20-minute melee. It just knows exactly how to put a powerful bit of punctuation on the end of this experience. This is in general release, but if you are lucky enough to live next to one of the venues that is showing it in 35- or 70-millimeter film, that is definitely the way to do it. So it's Kill Bill: The Whole Bloody Affair. It made me very happy.
24:06 Stephen Thompson? Thank you so much, Chris Klemic. So what is making me happy this week? An album that has me absolutely obsessed. It's called The Boy Who Played The Harp. It's by the London rapper Dave. A brilliant colleague, Sheldon Pierce, has been shouting from the rooftops about this record for months. I only recently got around to actually heeding his very, very smart advice. This record is stunning. It's lavishly produced. It's deftly performed, deeply introspective, reflective, insightful. You can get a sense of that in just a few seconds from the album's title track.
24:38 Speaker 06 In 1960, I fired to fight for the rights of my people and laid out my life on the line so my grandkids could live a life that's peaceful. Would I be on the, would I be frontline? That's what I'm thinking. If I was alive in the 1912 and the Titanic and it was sinking, who am I saving? Am I fighting women and children or am I waiting? I wonder, what would I do in the next generation?
24:59 Stephen Thompson? There are impeccably chosen guests kind of scattered throughout this record that speak to its overall aesthetic. People like James Blake, Thames, Jim Legacy. But the centerpiece is Dave and his pursuit of something bigger and braver than himself. It's a gorgeous, haunted, searching record that, for me, anyway, is filling out 2025's remaining days with rich and rewarding musical discovery. That is Dave and his fantastic new album, The Boy Who Played the Harp. That is what is making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of our show.
25:42 Stephen Thompson? Rihanna Cruz, Chris Klimic, thanks so much for being here.
25:45 Speaker 04 Happy to be here. I see you, Stephen.
25:47 Speaker 02 Blessings of Awa be upon you, Stephen.
25:50 Stephen Thompson? This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Kayla Latimore and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all next week.
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