Sam Rockwell

When Sam Rockwell shows up good things happen. From indies to blockbusters to his latest instantly iconic surprise turn in THE WHITE LOTUS, he's a true chameleon and an actor's actor. Sam joins Josh to chat memorable monologues, his favorite actors, why Philip Seymour Hoffman was such an inspiration, and more. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  The tone was weird, man. The tone was weird. It was not clear. You know, it was like popcorn meets Cutesy meets Bill Murray's Crispin, you know, Crispin Glover's in it and [BLEEP]. And it's wacky thing. It was a wacky movie.

• 1:15Josh Horowitz?

  It's a miracle of a movie that it works, frankly.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  It's a miracle.

• 1:18Josh Horowitz?

  Everything you talked about.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  It's nuts.

• 1:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it shouldn't work. It shouldn't work, but it does. And then it collapsed in the second one because that kind of thing only happens once.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 1:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Sure, exactly.

• 1:28Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:36Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. The main event today, one of our great actors, Mr. Sam Rockwell, on my screen and hopefully in your ears and on your screen for this very special conversation for Happy, Sad, Confused. It's been a packed week, guys. Welcome to the show. Our third episode of the week, if you're keeping track. I know I am. Monday, we had David Goyer talking all things Batman Begins for the 20th anniversary. If you haven't checked that out and you're a Batman fan, do yourself a favor. And then we just dropped the other day our 28 years later conversation with Danny Boyle. Jodie Comer and out Aaron Taylor Johnson recorded in my Second Street Y. And because we just had to jam one more in, we have Sam Rockwell in the house. Uh, I'm so excited to share this one today.

• 2:20Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, it's been a minute since Sam has been on the podcast solo. So this was a nice opportunity to catch up with one of my faves. Uh, before we get to that, as always, a little reminder, patreon.com slash happy say confused is your friend. For all things happy, say confused, early access, discount codes to our live events, merch, opportunities to ask questions of our guests. Check it out. It helps us make more stuff over here. If you support us over there. Again, that's patreon.com slash happy say confused. Okay, Sam Rockwell. I don't need to give you much of an intro to Sam Rockwell. If you love film, TV, theater, the last 25, 30 years, then you probably love Sam Rockwell, especially if you have good taste.

• 3:02Josh Horowitz?

  He is an Oscar winner. He is about to probably get another Emmy nomination, deservedly so for his really cool supporting turn. Surprising supporting turn. If you've seen The White Lotus, you know what I'm talking about. Um, he just about steals the show when he comes in midway through. I'm not going to spoil it. If you haven't seen the show, you probably should check it out before this conversation. But he does arrive on the scene as a contemporary friend of Walt Goggins' character. And then delivers not only a bunch of great conversations and scenes throughout the series, but one monologue in particular that is an immediate all timer. So, um, this conversation is a lot about White Lotus, but we also hit upon a lot of great, um, actors that Sam admires that I admire.

• 3:47Josh Horowitz?

  Sam is a true actor's actor, loves the profession, loves, uh, great films, filmmakers, and above all else, actors. So to hear him gush about Phil Hoffman and Gene Hackman and just, uh, you know, Gary Oldman and the folks that inspire him is really cool to hear, not to mention fun stories about Charlie's Angels and Iron Man two and much, much more. Fun chat with Sam before we launch into it, a little context. This was a Zoom conversation and Sam's partner, if you don't know, is Leslie Bibb. Very talented, amazing actor, also killed it in White Lotus this season. So when I popped on the Zoom, Leslie was there as well. I know Sam and Leslie for many years now. They're two of my favorite

• 4:32Josh Horowitz?

  human beings on the planet, fellow New Yorkers, fellow dog lovers. So I've seen them out and about many times over the years and I'm happy to see them both. So that's why you're gonna see and hear Leslie in the beginning of this as well. We kind of, there's no real formal introduction. We just kind of launch right into this random fun conversation. So that's all the preamble you need. What you're about to listen to and hear is a conversation with one of our greats. Please enjoy my conversation with the legend, Mr. Sam Rockwell.

• 5:04Speaker 05

  Oh, hello.

• 5:06Josh Horowitz?

  I was hoping I got a package deal today. It's the Today Show. It's my competition out there.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  Hi.

• 5:14Josh Horowitz?

  Hi, Sam.

• 5:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. Hi, babes.

• 5:17Josh Horowitz?

  How's it going, guys?

• 5:19Speaker 05

  Good, man. Sam, are you really eating while you're doing that? You're shoving food in your mouth. It's so unprofessional.

• 5:25Josh Horowitz?

  No, this is what I expect. I have a very low bar for him. Don't worry.

• 5:28Speaker 05

  Thanks, Ben. But last time you were together, you were in a bed together.

• 5:33Josh Horowitz?

  We were. There have been multiple times.

• 5:34Speaker 05

  Leaving the interview. Hold on, I'm leaving.

• 5:38Josh Horowitz?

  How was, how was your new gig as a Today Show host?

• 5:41Speaker 05

  Wait, I can't hear you because Sam's screaming at me.

• 5:43Josh Horowitz?

  How's your new gig as a Today Show host?

• 5:47Speaker 05

  I just did two days. It was really fun. Do I look like a little kid like trying to pee? This is what Gus looks like. This is Gus at Thanksgiving, trying to eat. What do you mean? I want turkey. Gussie, come say hi. Come here.

• 6:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, Gus.

• 6:03Speaker 05

  I'm sad at Gus right now. Because he almost, Gussie, look, come here. Come say hi. Come on, let him come up. Up, up, up. Pause up. Come on.

• 6:13Speaker 05

  Oh, I weigh so much.

• 6:14Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, there's the true superstar.

• 6:18Speaker 05

  It's the worst allergies.

• 6:21Josh Horowitz?

  Who's got the allergies? Who's allergic to who?

• 6:24Speaker 05

  Gus is allergic to New York City.

• 6:27Josh Horowitz?

  That's no good. Fancy.

• 6:31Josh Horowitz?

  Fancy.

• 6:32Speaker 05

  Okay, I'm gonna let you guys be.

• 6:34Josh Horowitz?

  Good to see you.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Josh, can I say something? How good was Sam Rockwell in The White Lotus?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  How good was you building the way?

• 6:41Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna talk about both of you for the next forty-five minutes and Gus, you guys are both amazing. You killed it.

• 6:47Speaker 05

  But that monologue.

• 6:50Josh Horowitz?

  Unbelievable. Can I tell you a good story while you're on camera too? And I was gonna say this for the podcast, but we're officially in the podcast. We're doing this. When Walton was on, like a year and a half ago on the podcast, we were talking Fallout and he was in the middle of shooting White Lotus. And he spilled by accident, Sam, that you were in the show. And I've never seen a man so scared that he was gonna be fired in the middle of his shoot. He caught himself.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  You kept the secret?

• 7:15Josh Horowitz?

  I, we cut it out. We cut it out of the show. He was like dying.

• 7:19Speaker 05

  It's so.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Oh my god, you're, you're, you're a good, you're a good man.

• 7:23Speaker 05

  Can I tell you, we, we threw a Christmas party, which by the way, you need to be on our guest list to come to the Christmas party. Um, we throw this like fun Christmas party. I saw you vying for a coconut cake with Tom Cruise too, by the way.

• 7:36Josh Horowitz?

  More than vying, begging.

• 7:37Speaker 05

  Shameless.

• 7:37Josh Horowitz?

  Shameless.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  I love coconut. I love coconut.

• 7:41Josh Horowitz?

  Do you guys get the cake? Do you guys get the cake?

• 7:43Speaker 05

  No, I don't get a coconut cake from Tom. TC, I don't know TC. Um.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Personal friend of mine.

• 7:49Speaker 05

  You don't get a coconut.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Personal friend.

• 7:51Speaker 05

  Um, but, uh, we were at the Christmas party and everyone's like, cause we, you know, just come back and it'd only been like a couple, you know, a few months. And everyone's like, did Sam come visit you? And I had to lie. We were like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he came to Bangkok. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:07Josh Horowitz?

  Little drive by.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Little drive by, little drive by.

• 8:10Speaker 05

  Lying to people is one of the things I hate most, which I know is seen silly because we're actors, but I hate lying.

• 8:18Josh Horowitz?

  It was all for a good cause. The world benefited from the surprise.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Still, alright.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  We got dressed up for your podcast, bro.

• 8:25Josh Horowitz?

  Appreciate you. I didn't.

• 8:27Speaker 05

  So good in that show, right? He's so, it's an, it's like, here's the thing, you think.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  How good is she as Kate? She's so You stop, you stop.

• 8:38Speaker 05

  This juice on her face.

• 8:40Josh Horowitz?

  You both disgust me. Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 05

  It's like, it's, it's because he's, he's not in as much of the show, but to me, it's is the whole reason. It's like what the whole show is about.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  All right, get out of here.

• 8:55Speaker 05

  And I think it's so, you're so, it's crazy. I'm gonna punch somebody.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  How, how likable is she as, as that character?

• 9:03Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna punch somebody if you both don't get all the nominations, goddammit. How you doing, buddy?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  How you doing?

• 9:13Josh Horowitz?

  Keeping, keeping all of this in. This is the podcast, by the way.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  I wanted to leave a surprise for you.

• 9:22Speaker 05

  And the surprise is good riddance for me.

• 9:25Josh Horowitz?

  This isn't work. This is just fun for me.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  You don't know that I left that toilet seat up. That could have been somebody else.

• 9:31Speaker 05

  There's so many men.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Put some people in the house today.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:35Josh Horowitz?

  We, we just went from touting your brilliant performance to you were a disgusting Neanderthal. We just ran the gamut of a relationship right there in 30 seconds.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Welcome to my life.

• 9:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:44Speaker 05

  He's a brilliant artist.

• 9:46Josh Horowitz?

  And a disgusting heathen.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  Brilliant toilet person down her seater.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  That was open. She'd be drenched.

• 9:56Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, how's life? You're back home.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Hey, bro, what's happening?

• 10:00Josh Horowitz?

  It's all good. Keeping busy.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Hey, man. Me too. I'm just gonna. Yeah. Yeah, man. What's, what's she? I like the haircut.

• 10:11Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you. Trying to keep it clean for you. You know who I saw yesterday and we're, we're in it. If that's okay. I saw. I saw Turturro yesterday. It made me think I am.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Oh shit.

• 10:21Josh Horowitz?

  I am way too, I haven't seen Box of Moonlight probably in 30 years. I need to go back.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  That, that didn't come up with, with, with the internet.

• 10:30Josh Horowitz?

  No, we were doing, I think for Severance, but um.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:33Josh Horowitz?

  Can we, let's just reminisce about that one. Was Turturro a big deal for you way back when?

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Big deal. Big deal. Yeah. Cause um. You know, I'd heard about his infamous performance in Danny and the Deep Blue Sea, which kind of put him on the map. And then I saw him in Miller's Crossing and everybody was talking about John. And Miller's Crossing, you know, because it was that generation of like.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  John Turturro, Miller's Crossing, Gary Oldman, Sidney Antsy, then John Malkovich, True West, and Places in the Heart, and, you know, and then it was just, the, yeah, this, this, you know, Phil Daniels was a guy, and then, all these kind of, that generation of actors, you know, was, was just exploding, and Daniel Day-Lewis, and Ray Fiennes, Willem Dafoe, and, you know.

• 11:20Josh Horowitz?

  I have to say, I, I, I've done a few things, I, I was in LA like a week or two ago, and I did an event with Gary Oldman, and I've got a couple of these like career retrospectives with him. The dude is un, we've all known this, we've known that, and, and where he is now, and the life he's lived, and he went through it all, and now he's like the sweetest, most humble, and like self-effacing, hates his own, like, acting, like, it's so, the harshest critic ever, and it's just so inspiring to hear him talk about the movies that mean everything to us.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  He's the best, man, I get to spend a lot of time with him during that, like, the Oscar stuff, you know, and he was, he and I were on the same circuit.

• 11:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  We had a great, we had a great, we had some good laughs, yeah.

• 12:01Josh Horowitz?

  So, um, so you're back home, you've been, you've been running around, you've done a lot of travel for, for work the last year, it's been a-

• 12:07Speaker 02

  A lot of travel, yeah, South Africa, Easter Island, it's been all over the place, yeah.

• 12:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, so, so what are the routines when you come back home? What do you fall into? Do you have a, like, what's, what's your role around the house besides not leaving the toilet seat down?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Well, when my dog's not, um-

• 12:26Josh Horowitz?

  Sneezing.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  No, um, taking me down in the park, um, let's see, I, I go to the movies, I go, you know, try to catch in some theater, I try to, um, you know, you know, the usual crap, try to see people, friends, you know?

• 12:49Josh Horowitz?

  So what? Okay. Okay. So, so what Leslie already did.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  What about you, young man?

• 12:53Josh Horowitz?

  What's my life? What's my daily life?

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do you? What about you? What do you do for leisure?

• 12:58Josh Horowitz?

  My, my work is my leisure.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Do you have a child? Are you married? Do you have a child?

• 13:02Josh Horowitz?

  I'm married. The dog is in the other. The wife and the dog is in the other room.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Okay, that's good. We got the same deal. Yeah.

• 13:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, we got the same kind of deal.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:11Josh Horowitz?

  Um, no, but okay, let's, let's talk, let's talk White Lotus. Leslie already did some of the heavy lifting for me, but I will echo everything she said. Uh, you kill it in this and it's such a delightful, delightful surprise for most of the world outside of me because Walton gave me the tip off. But, um, talk to me like, look, this is a nice, this is a nice weird surprise in your life too, because this was obviously something that came out of nowhere. Um, are you a believer in kind of like everything happens for a reason, kind of a thing in, in an acting life or, or what? Like, how do you look at this, this one?

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, this was really, um, an unexpected. Uh, kind of hit thing that happened, you know, I mean, I. It was supposed to be another actor. He dropped out because of dates and then I, they called me, I was in South Africa. And I was doing, um, I was doing this, uh, movie with Gorb Lukashenko. And Zazie Beetz, Michael Peña, Juno Temple.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  You know, all these great actors, uh, and we,

• 14:18Speaker 02

  we, um, I was doing all these monologues in the movie. The, the movie begins with a, uh, 10-page monologue. And then I had also done American Buffalo with monologues. So, I was kind of tuned up by the time I got to White Lotus, which didn't, I didn't have a lot of prep time and then it just kind of came together, you know? And Mike, you know, he really did an extraordinary thing with, in the writing of this monologue. He sums up the entire season, all the characters. Kind of with this one character sort of summarizing the theme of the season, which is,

• 14:53Speaker 02

  you know, this sort of quest for, for enlightenment, spirituality. And, and the conflict between that and, and selfishness. And so he, um,

• 15:07Speaker 02

  I the the task at hand, you know, the acting problem with the monologue was really,

• 15:15Speaker 02

  you know, in a way to kind of summarize that whole philosophy of that season.

• 15:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  And it was interesting. It was really interesting trying to get it together. And then, you know, I was ambivalent because I didn't know if I have enough time to prepare. Walt called me, Leslie called me and they're like, you gotta do it. And then I had some ideas for the rest of the stuff and I pitched it to Mike and I just jumped in. And then, you know, yeah.

• 15:40Josh Horowitz?

  So in practical terms, like what are you, you agree to do it. You're like, okay, this is too, too, too good to pass up.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:46Josh Horowitz?

  What do you start to work on? I know you work with Harry Knickerbocker, who you always talk about your acting teacher, coach. Like what, like what in the margins of your script? Like what are the notes? Like how, like how particular are you getting and kind of like figuring?

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Well, you're getting very, very specific with it. And, you know, little tiny things tweaking with Mike or, or even Leslie and obviously Terry Knickerbocker and then kind of like trying to get more specific. And I think as you get older, the work with more experience, you know,

• 16:25Speaker 02

  what Gene Hackman calls sort of like getting simpler, getting simplifying your work. And so there was a tendency to want to do it, you know, maybe with like a twang or do it like, I was sort of described to me like these guys are, it's ambivalent with their backstories that they might be ex, expats, ex military.

• 16:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Because he's giving them a gun and could they have been mercenaries? You know, it's sort of unclear on purpose what, what Walt, Rick and Frank's background is. And so you kind of have to create your own past. And then, um, so, you know, we did some things like we had a couple, they make up hair team, they shaved my head, gave me some scars, had a Navy SEAL tattoo and I was.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Pretty skinny at the time and Walt, I don't know Walt and I, I knew we'd be well paired. And we would immediately have this kind of Butch Cassidy, Sundance Cagney and Lacey vibe going. I knew that was going to happen immediately. So

• 17:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  That was kind of taken care of and to, to act with a close friend. Was really interesting to play close friends with a history.

• 17:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  In a show with a actual friend, close friend with a history is, is really cool. And you have a shorthand. So it's, it helps you immediately and, and um, you know, Mike was open to a lot of the ideas that I pitched him. My, my acting coach, Terry said, you should have an alter ego for the film director, character. So we created a look with the members only in the hat. It's kind of like Tony Scott or

• 18:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right. I see that.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  You know, kind of a little McConaughey in there or something. And then,

• 18:18Speaker 02

  um, or Woody Harrelson, maybe. And then, you know, uh,

• 18:25Speaker 02

  it just kind of like, uh, came together. I pitched him, there was a bar fight that we shot that was cut out, but like, um, really interesting stuff. And some of it ended up in the, I pitched him the hallway scene and he wrote that scene.

• 18:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  And, um,

• 18:45Speaker 02

  yeah, the monologue is pretty much intact, I would say, for the most part.

• 18:49Josh Horowitz?

  Were you thinking of, I mean, there have been so, I mean, obviously so many amazing monologues in, in, in film history. I mean, and this one I love because it is like, it's kind of that deranged, it's that history of kind of like deranged storytelling, right? It's kind of like a little bit of that.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:02Josh Horowitz?

  Robert Shaw in Jaws or, or Brando in Apocalypse, like,

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 19:08Josh Horowitz?

  Were you thinking of those kind of reference points a little bit?

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I, I looked at those. Yeah. I, you know, in, uh, in my monologue frenzy during the Gore Vervinsky movie.

• 19:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Cause I had like five monologues in that movie. I And a kind of a monologue frenzy to make every monologue seem different. In that movie, I started Googling. Great monologues.

• 19:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and those monologues would come up, all these monologues would come up. Morgan Freeman and Shawshank with the parole board.

• 19:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  You know, Jack Nicholson, Few Good Men.

• 19:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Can't Handle the Truth, you know, then there was Rocky, Sylvester Stallone in like Rocky V, talking to his son, giving him like a pep talk. There's all these monologues, you know, because I had every kind of monologue in the score of a Minsky movie.

• 19:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Uh, which is called Good Luck, Have Fun, Don't Die. And um. So when we got to White Lotus. I was working on it in a certain way.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  And. My tendency was to do it kind of melancholy and my acting coach. Uh, cautioned me.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  With that approach, you know, he said, no, no, it's really. You know, the character's enlightened. This is a good thing. This is a very positive thing.

• 20:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right. He's not ashamed of this. He's, he's, yeah.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Not ashamed of this at all. There's no shame. And I think there was a tendency to get sort of dark with it because of the material is so dark. And I really had to work to go against that. And then. You know, I'd already done sex addict research on choke. Chuck Palahniuk had already done like sober research. I'd done movies like Drunks with Parker Posey.

• 20:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Gone to meetings. I'd um.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  And you know, I'd worked with Navy SEALs before and talked to Navy SEALs and. So the ex-military stuff was sort of there. Talked about post-traumatic stress and stuff like that. And then I, the only thing left was the Buddhism stuff, which I really didn't know a lot about. So I, I watched some documentaries or read up on a little bit and then. You know, the rest of it's on the page, you know, it's really about me and Walt and what's on the page. And so.

• 21:21Josh Horowitz?

  Sorry.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's just, so, so I guess for the, is, you know, you, you, you're, you're, there is something about. Life is preparing you.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  For the next role.

• 21:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  You know, when I did Snow Angels, I'd already done, I'd already played Judas in the last days of Judas Iscariot. So I'd already gotten the sort of biblical New Testament tutorial from a Jesuit priest named James Martin, who was friends with Steve Colbert. And then I, he then helped me with the Snow Angels. So like, you know, you play Laertes and then you play Hamlet. You know what I mean? It's like, that's the kind of

• 22:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  thing that happens. You play Mercutio, then you play Iago. So, so I think it really did, all those things led me up to this, where I really only had like four weeks, I think,

• 22:14Speaker 02

  to prepare for it. And I made a joke that I might need an airwig or teleprompter. And they had an airwig prepared for me.

• 22:22Josh Horowitz?

  Full Brando, full.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I didn't need it. But, you know, I was worried about the, the lines. And then, then we got it. Yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 23:10Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 23:43Josh Horowitz?

  Obviously mentioned Walt and who you've known for a while and he's obviously been having a moment the last couple of years.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Well deserved.

• 23:49Josh Horowitz?

  And you had a you had a front row seat to a meme that came a year plus after you shot it. Do you remember like watching his reaction and clocking it as something particularly noteworthy at the time?

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Wait, which one are we talking about?

• 24:06Josh Horowitz?

  I'm talking about the reaction to your monologue, the kind of like the mouth agape.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 24:10Josh Horowitz?

  It's become this whole thing.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you can't you can't do that monologue in a vacuum, you know, it has to be.

• 24:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Walt's character has his own monologue, inward monologue that he doesn't verbalize. But there's a lot going on with Walt's character.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's beautifully played by Walt and we had a great time doing that. You know, Walt's Walt's got, you know, got the thing, a very genuine quality that is rare in actors you see these days. I mean,

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Jeremy Renner has it.

• 24:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Hemsworth has a little bit of that kind of it's just there's the kind of thing like,

• 24:59Speaker 02

  you know, Russell Crowe or like Nick Nolte, it's like this kind of like Nick Nolte thing. I can't.

• 25:04Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's a lived in quality, right?

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:06Josh Horowitz?

  You think it's like, it's like he was, it makes sense that at this age, this is kind of like when people are enjoying him. Because like he doesn't, at 22, you don't want to see that guy. He probably had that quality at 22 and now it fits the body and who he is now.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, he plays the innocent in The Apostle, the kind of,

• 25:26Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  He plays this very innocent character in The Apostle. Yeah, Walt and I met in Cowboys and Aliens, you know, and.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  We became very good friends. Walt's just one of a kind. He's just, he's just got this thing. You know, he comes from nothing and his mother and him used to clog together, clogging contests, you know, crazy.

• 25:49Josh Horowitz?

  Relate, having acted with your mom.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I acted with my mom. So we have a lot in common. We're both latchkey kids, you know? So we both worked in restaurants and we, we know, you know, we know the, the deal.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  We both know what it's like to be broke and Walt and I have a lot in common. So we, we, we talk about stuff like that, you know?

• 26:10Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, do you remember, your audition days thankfully are long behind you? Do you remember the last time you had to audition?

• 26:18Speaker 02

  You know, I, I always tell Josh Brolin, I went in for his part, No Country For Old Men and they got the right guy for the job, you know?

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Josh is, was, it was meant to be. That was supposed to happen, you know?

• 26:34Speaker 02

  But I remember going in for the callback for that and I was like, I had a cold. My girlfriend at the time had just broken up with me. I was like, I'm not making excuses, but I was a little off my game. But, um,

• 26:52Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think if that was the last time or if there was something else. It's probably something else.

• 26:57Josh Horowitz?

  Was, was that the one and only Cone Brothers close call you had? Cause it feels like every actor I'm sure you would want.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  You know, I read for Turturro's part in, um, Oh Brother. There was a moment where he was maybe not going to do it. They were negotiating his contract and so I went in for it.

• 27:16Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  And I brought in my fake teeth from the Green Mile. And I did my sort of, you know, hillbilly thing and, um,

• 27:27Speaker 02

  didn't get that either, but John, John got it. John had it really. But I think I made them laugh in that audition. I remember being, being like,

• 27:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  You know?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, uh, oh, I think I, I did, I think I did do a song for.

• 27:44Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, Inside Blue and Davis or?

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. I sang a song. Yeah.

• 27:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  I think my voice was a little too country and western for that movie.

• 27:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  But.

• 27:57Josh Horowitz?

  Who were the contemporaries you were often going up against back in the day?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  I was going up against, well, Josh and I came from the same, it was, it was Billy Crudup, Leif Schreiber,

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Jeffrey Wright, Mark Ruffalo, Renner and Shannon were a little younger.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  I think, who else? There's a bunch, there's a few others in there. Who else? I'm thinking of, I'm leaving somebody out.

• 28:27Josh Horowitz?

  Those make sense.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  David Harbour was coming up and then,

• 28:33Speaker 02

  yeah, a couple of guys older, a couple of guys younger, you know, Matthew McFadden's a little, maybe a little younger. But yeah, Billy and I, Josh Hamilton, Frank Whaley, there was a bunch of people. Oh, Kevin Corrigan, Michael Imperioli, Michael Imperioli and I, Kevin Corrigan drove in a van to New Jersey to audition for One Line and Lean on Me.

• 28:59Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  And I got it. And then they shut, they could, they never got to my scene. So they had to let me go because they didn't want to pay me for a week. So they got to pay for a day player or pay for, so they fired, they let me go, they fired me, they just sort of let me go.

• 29:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  And because they were like, ah, we can't pay him a week for one line. And then they hired Michael. And Michael got it. Michael's in the movie, but I still get residual, Michael Imperioli.

• 29:31Josh Horowitz?

  Imperioli and Lean on Me.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  And I still get residual checks for that, even though I'm not in it. And then

• 29:39Speaker 02

  I went and then they called me to do Celebrity.

• 29:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  And I was part of DiCaprio's entourage.

• 29:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  And I had a few lines. And they said, Woody wants you to dye your hair bleach blonde. And I said, I'm not dying my hair bleach blonde for like five lines. What are you crazy? And they're like, Woody wants you to do it.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, I'm not doing it. And they're like, well, Michael, Michael Imperioli was going to do it because he had dropped out. And I was replacing Michael. Cause Michael was gonna do a little pilot called Sopranos.

• 30:16Josh Horowitz?

  Heard of it. Yep.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  That I heard what didn't go anywhere.

• 30:18Josh Horowitz?

  Nope.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  But, um, and, uh, and so I said, all right, I'll dye my hair and I dyed my bleach my hair.

• 30:26Josh Horowitz?

  Were, were you thrilled when you got the head thug role in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Were you, did you, did you, did you want a name? Did you have a backstory, a full name, character arc?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  I did not. I did not. I, I, I worked with Elias Coteas. I met Patty Clarkson down there in North Carolina. Josh Hamilton, my buddy was down there and, uh, we hung out with Keanu Reeves in North Carol, in Wilmington, North Carolina.

• 30:49Josh Horowitz?

  What were they making? What was going on there?

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Very nice guy, by the way. He was down there doing a movie with Peter, Peter Falk, Patty Clarkson.

• 30:57Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Anyway.

• 31:01Josh Horowitz?

  Elias Codius was kind of a big deal at the time. He was someone that was kind of.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:05Josh Horowitz?

  Actors love.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  What you call him? Elias Codis?

• 31:08Josh Horowitz?

  Codius? Coteas? I've never, I've never spoken to the man. I don't know. How do you, you tell me. Elias Codius?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Maybe it is Elias Codius. I thought it was Elias Coteas, but you're probably right. Elias Coteas. You know what? I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

• 31:24Josh Horowitz?

  Here's the important question. Did our last meaningful chat with our buddy, Justin Long, bear any fruit on the Galaxy Quest front? Did we help secret into the universe? Any progress on giving birth?

• 31:35Speaker 02

  I don't know, but is there a gimp mask involved?

• 31:39Josh Horowitz?

  Folks that don't know, there is context to that random aside by Sam Rockwell.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Josh and I did a sketch.

• 31:47Josh Horowitz?

  We did.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Uh, you have to Google it, but anyway.

• 31:49Josh Horowitz?

  There's so many good things. Did you watch when I sent you the, uh, the unearthed walk in, um, Sam Rockwell gem? The conversation we had, um, for, for, uh, I was gonna say for Prometheus.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  That's tremendous. That's one of the greats. I sent that to him.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  It's it's such it's an amazing. That's an amazing conversation.

• 32:11Josh Horowitz?

  It really I've sent that around a lot.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  That's an amazing conversation.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  It is.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  That's a that's pretty amazing.

• 32:17Josh Horowitz?

  That was for Seven Psychopaths. That was a beautiful film. A beautiful. Was that the first time you met Chris Walken?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  We've made a couple of great short films, you and I, though. We've made a couple.

• 32:24Josh Horowitz?

  We've made some real real gems. We're due for another one.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:28Josh Horowitz?

  Was that was that where you and Walken first connected?

• 32:31Speaker 02

  We we connected on. We did a play together and then we did Seven Psychopaths.

• 32:35Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, Behanding was before then.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But no, Justin did talk about Galaxy Quest, and I don't know what's happening with that. I kind of I hope that happens, man. It's time to get Guy Flegman out again.

• 32:46Josh Horowitz?

  The world needs it right now. So we always talk Walken. I feel like you collected a new Walken in your life. You worked with Malkovich recently. He's in that.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  I did.

• 32:55Josh Horowitz?

  He's in that pantheon. Did he live up to everything that I hope and dream John Malkovich would bring to the table?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  He's incredible. He's incredible. He works so hard.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  We had such a great time. He's he's just an amazing, beautiful actor. You know, he's a hero of mine and all these guys are and, you know.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, John Turturro, Gary Oldman, John Malkovich, Chris Walken. John and I had a great time. He was.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  We talked a lot about a lot of nerdy actor stuff.

• 33:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:34Josh Horowitz?

  What what were what were the was it film or theater roles or both? I assume that you revered for him. Like, what do you remember?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  I saw him originally. I saw him.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  In a in Death of a Salesman on television.

• 33:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  They had filmed the stage play, Simon Destin Hoffman and Stephen Lang, and it was a great cast. And that's and high school, I saw that. I did a monologue from it and then. I had then later, years later, I watched they filmed True West and that's a famous, you know, that's a very famous production. And then I saw him live and burn this. So I initially, and then I saw places in the heart and the Killing Fields and, you know, stuff like that.

• 34:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Did you ever, I, I, I make, my, my mind is floating around when you mentioned True West. Obviously Phil Hoffman always comes up. I saw Phil and John C. Reilly when they were

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 34:27Josh Horowitz?

  Going back and forth.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  Incredible.

• 34:29Josh Horowitz?

  Unbelievable. It's one of those.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Incredible. Yeah.

• 34:32Josh Horowitz?

  So Phil obviously always comes up in conversations.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:35Josh Horowitz?

  You, you, you bring him up all the time. You brought him up in the Oscar speech. Yeah, you never, I mean, he directed you, but you never got a chance to, to act with Phil, did you? Or am I missing something?

• 34:44Speaker 02

  No, I, I had two opportunities, maybe three, and they were squandered and I, I regret that. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's a couple of like Nick Nolte. I could have worked with Nick Nolte, could have worked with Kurt Russell, really that kick of myself, Richard Jenkins.

• 35:03Josh Horowitz?

  They're still out there. Got them.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  They're still out there this time. But yeah, Phil, yeah, we, we were very close, you know, we're good friends and he directed me and we had, he was one of the guys.

• 35:13Josh Horowitz?

  What, what?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  He was the guy.

• 35:15Josh Horowitz?

  He was the guy for a generation. Yeah. I mean, I mean, and I feel like I underestimated him at the, at the beginning because to me, he was like scent of a woman, like baddie. I didn't realize what I was dealing with until, until he kind of accumulated the body of work and realized he could just do anything.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 35:32Josh Horowitz?

  Like, I, I don't know if there's an easy way to kind of encapsulate this, but why did you put him on a pedestal? What made him such a singular talent for you?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  You know, I think Chris Walken said it after he passed away, said that he was our Charles Laughton. He could have been our generation's Charles Laughton. And there was so much work ahead of him. And he was a young guy and he, he was special that he was, he had the emotional power of a George C. Scott or John Malkovich, kind of emotional ferocity.

• 36:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  You know, that kind of stuff that Laurie Metcalf does or Gary Oldman or John Malkovich. Like he had that emotional power.

• 36:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Is what my teacher used to call it, emotional power. And then he also was transformational and he could, he could transform and he was, um,

• 36:25Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, he could be a baseball coach. He could be from a Capote like.

• 36:32Josh Horowitz?

  Also could be so vulnerable, like, right? Like Magnolia, happiness, like these like.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  No, exactly. I mean, happiness incredible. Yeah. I mean, I mean, the the humiliation and happiness that he goes through, you know, like.

• 36:48Josh Horowitz?

  That's a brave.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  And boogie nights, boogie nights, like blew our socks off, you know? You know, that's really the big, you know, when you see a Robert Duvall, a Morgan Freeman, who plays the President of the United States and he plays Fast Black.

• 37:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  And Street Smart, um, you know, uh, Cheadle and Devil in a Blue Dress, or whatever, what have you, and, and, and Phil. Same thing, man, you know, Robert Duvall. Meryl Streep, this kind of transformational, uh, chameleon-like skills they have is, is really, um. It's the merit, it's, it's, it's the true merit of, of, of an actor, I think, when you can. Pound for pound, you know, Brando was, you know, he's had it all, but it's like, can you transform? Can you, do you have this emotional power? And?

• 37:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. And then if you're, yeah, you know what I mean?

• 37:44Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. I mean, a different kind of actor you mentioned already, to me at least, and you worked with him, was, was Gene Hackman. You worked with Gene on, on Heist, the Mammoth film. And he's, he's the one I always bring up. I mean, Gary Oldman always brings him up. Many actors bring him up, like he.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  It's good to talk about him because he just passed. Yeah.

• 38:00Josh Horowitz?

  Just passed. And like for me, you know, outside looking in, no false notes. That guy just like, I believed anything. He did. I didn't, I don't necessarily see him, and this is not like a demerit at all, as a chameleon. He just like, he, he was truth. He was just like, kind of like that lived in. Guy. And he could do, he could do shades of that. But like I said, I never saw anything come out of his mouth. That didn't feel real. What, I mean, what was your experience watching him up close and?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  He was amazing, you know, um, he was able to.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Draw boundaries with people, but then, but, but also just.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  I saw him.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Kind of protect himself from.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  What can happen on a set often is that people don't really understand what you're doing. Often, you know, not everybody is Alan Bakula, you know, or Sidney Lumet, you know, I mean, like, often, some of the best directors are not necessarily actor friendly. And so that goes for every department and they don't, and it's fine, they don't need to understand what I'm doing. But I think that you have to,

• 39:26Speaker 02

  you have to give them an awareness of it. And sometimes I see, I saw him a couple of times, like,

• 39:33Speaker 02

  just ask for space, you know?

• 39:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right. This was Mamet, and Mamet famously is kind of like, say the words, do, just say the words.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Say the words and stand here and, you know, he's a, he's a, he's wonderful. I mean, he's done some great movies and he's great plays, obviously. But, um, but yeah, it's just a different headset, you know, and no one, it's hard to understand

• 39:56Speaker 02

  what the actor's headset is. And so, you know,

• 40:02Speaker 02

  he kept very quiet. He was very quiet and then he would crack jokes. His stand-in was like one of his best friends and they would hang out. He's an ex-baseball player. He told me some great jokes and we, he gave me some advice here and there, you know, I remember going up to him and I needed some help and,

• 40:20Speaker 02

  he also wanted me to bring it, you know, he wanted me to bring it. He wasn't afraid of a good tennis player opposite him. You know what I mean?

• 40:32Josh Horowitz?

  He knew that would bring out the best in him, probably.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, and same thing with somebody like Malkovich or Chris Walken. It's the same thing. Francis McDormand, whatever. They know, they're not threatened by someone who's gonna pass the ball. And, um, you know, um, that's, that's really, that takes great confidence and knowing a lot about the art form of what.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  What it entails, it takes a village, you know?

• 41:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  You need a good tennis player, you know?

• 41:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right. I'm sure there's a lot of insecurity for younger actors in particular that think they have to kind of like own, they have to win the scene. They have to kind of...

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not about that with, it wasn't about that with him.

• 41:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  And, yeah, I just watched Scarecrow, man, again, you know, and I was watching Royal Tannenbaum's, you know, I mean, I mean, Jesus Christ, he was a monster.

• 41:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  He's a monster. He's probably one of the, probably, yeah, one of the three or four, five greatest actors on the planet Earth. Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 42:19Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade. Hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 42:52Josh Horowitz?

  Let me throw out a couple of random

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:54Josh Horowitz?

  for you that we've never talked about in depth. We've never talked Charlie's Angels and that was such a big one for you at the time.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Somebody, there was a rumor that maybe they're doing another one with the, with Drew and Lucy and Cameron.

• 43:05Josh Horowitz?

  But I don't know, did you hear that? They've been trying to, yeah, it sounds like there have been rumblings in recent years. That wouldn't surprise me.

• 43:12Josh Horowitz?

  Was that a big deal for you? I mean, you have such a nice turn in that, like, I mean, I was just watching on YouTube, like the scene where you kind of, your reveal as the bad guy is a fun, kind of like one, like a one-er that turns on you. There's a little dancing, some music, and you kind of get to like show your true colors. What are your memories of taking that one?

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Well, you know, that, you know, I have to say, you know, that was a very much Nancy Javon and Drew Barrymore and McG, you know, they really created an environment.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  I came on early with that thing. And I had a lot of people tell me like, including I think Phil, like, don't do that. I think Phil said, don't do that. And then I brought Phil to the premiere at the Ziegfeld. And Phil never would admit that he was wrong. And he said, you know what? I was wrong. This was a good idea.

• 44:04Josh Horowitz?

  That movie works.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it really works. And everybody was like, you know, there was like 16, 17 writers.

• 44:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think only one of them was a woman.

• 44:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  And it's a movie about women, you know? And, um,

• 44:21Speaker 02

  you know, I met Nancy Javon and she talked about a few things. And then he said, you know, you should meet McG. He's doing Charlie's Angels. Met McG. We talked about all these weird references. He said, listen, the script is not ready. Do you want to just go in and, and read with?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Drew, we can keep it loose. I said, well, yeah, but what are we gonna read if the script's not really ready? And he said, um, and we were talking about the movie Foul Play.

• 44:53Josh Horowitz?

  I love that movie. Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Chevy Chase. And we're talking about Chevy Chase and, and Goldie Hawn on the boat, you know, the scene where he's in the robe and they've gotten, and um, there's a couple of great lines in that, um, but he, we, so we said, let's just read the scene from Foul Play. And that was my audition for Charlie's Angels. And then I think I brought, somebody brought a, uh, like a boombox and put some music on Drew and I danced and that was my audition. And then it was sort of on and we wanted to, we said, let's do this kind of like, um, Spike Jones, Bill Gates kind of guy, um, who is, uh,

• 45:39Speaker 02

  kind of like, um, turns into Richard Gere in American Gigolo or Ray Liotta in Something Wild. And that was the, that was the pitch for the character.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  And we're trying to figure out a way to do that reveal.

• 45:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  And then my friend and I were playing music and we, we found that Marvin Gaye song, Gotta Give It Up. And I think we pitched that to MCG. And Gotta Give It Up was, was the song where the, the character literally transitions into the bad guy. And, um, we had this like muscle tee and he'd been wearing this loose, loose clothing up until then. And, uh, it just was, it was a very clever idea and, and I don't know how we pulled it off, but we did. And we just made him kind of crunchy before that.

• 46:28Josh Horowitz?

  It's, it's fun because it's like, yeah, as an actor, you kind of like immediately alter kind of like your physicality and that tells everything, right? Like you're like, oh shit, like this is the guy.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  We were, we were definitely trying to do a Kaiser Soze.

• 46:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Thing and, um, and it kind of worked. And then, you know, you know, Drew had sent us this VHS tape. That's how long ago this was with all these, um, inspiration clips, like a reel of inspiration. And it was everything from Grease to, um, anime to like, uh, Saturday Night Fever to.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  I mean, it was everything. I'd love to see that reel right now and see what that's I'd love to see that.

• 47:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Um, because she put it together and it was, it was really, you sort of got the tone.

• 47:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  And the tone was weird, man. The tone was weird. It was not clear. You know, it was like popcorn meets cutesy meets Bill Murray's Crispin, you know, Crispin Glover's in it and fucking. And it's wacky thing. It was a wacky movie.

• 47:37Josh Horowitz?

  It's a miracle of a movie that it works, frankly.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  It's a miracle.

• 47:40Josh Horowitz?

  Everything you talked about.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  It's nuts. The movie's nuts.

• 47:42Josh Horowitz?

  It shouldn't work. It shouldn't work, but it does. And then it collapsed in the second one because that kind of thing only happens once.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 47:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Sure, exactly.

• 47:50Josh Horowitz?

  What, what do you think of, we, we talked a little bit back in the day, but now it's been 15 years since Iron Man two. Can you believe that? Iron Man two, 15 years old.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 47:59Josh Horowitz?

  Um, which was also a little bit of a wild, like.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Well, that was gonna reference. That's another one where I felt as safe in a, in a very, in the studio world. Was with Jon Favreau and Justin Theroux, you know?

• 48:12Josh Horowitz?

  Even though the script was moving, you felt safe because they, they were smart guys and they would figure it out.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt safe there because Theroux had written a, a script. You know, that was really interesting because Mickey Rourke. Uh, well, first of all, you know, I, you know, I used to just go over to Theroux's place where we, we met in Williamstown doing theater. And, um, friends with Billy Grudoff. I was with him in nine 11, him and Billy in Toronto. So we were old friends and then he had written Tropic Thunder with, uh, with Ben Stiller. And then I knew he was, I heard he was gonna do Iron Man two. He's gonna write it. And so I, I would go over to his house a lot and we'd make strong coffee and smoke cigarettes, roll up, roll cigarettes and.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  I said, where are you going? He said, I gotta go. I'm going. I gotta pack. Going to LA. I'm like, where, where are you going? I'm gonna write Iron Man two. Like, you're kidding me. Oh, that's amazing. I love Iron Man. I want to be in it. He's like, well,

• 49:17Speaker 02

  I'm like, well, why don't you guys write me a part as the bad guy or something? He's like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. So now I had, I was already dating Leslie and I had been with them right before the opening night of the first Iron Man and they were very nervous about it. We were at this dinner and they were like, I don't know. And, and then of course it exploded, you know? And so

• 49:40Speaker 02

  I love the movie. I really, really thought that movie, it obviously reinvented the genre. And, you know, then now you got Deadpool and all this stuff. So,

• 49:51Josh Horowitz?

  It should, it should be said, just for context also, you were, you had a moment, you talked to Favreau. I know you didn't officially audition, but he talked to you about the role.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Okay. So all very strange because I was also doing a movie called G-Force.

• 50:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  With Zach Galifianakis where Favreau and I played guinea pigs. Okay? So um, somehow I wanted to get in the room with the actors, which I like to do with this animated stuff. So,

• 50:21Speaker 02

  I, I, I try to get in the room, Anthony Ramos and Sazie Beats and like, Nora Aquafina, we got in the room and we do the voices and I did that with Favreau as the guinea pigs and we actually, actually the guinea pigs are like fighting. So like Favreau and I were like wrestling on the ground and it was like, we had mics on us and so, so he says, so we do, I like, I think we did one or two sessions like that. And after So Row went to LA, I guess he pitched me for the bad guy and Favreau said, why don't we split the bad guy into two bad guys? And we'll have like a, we'll have like a Frankenstein's monster and then like a Frankenstein.

• 51:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  And so, so it was kind of like, yeah, Lex Luthor and you know, whatever. So Mickey became the muscle, brains and bronze. So although Mickey's kind of the brains too, but,

• 51:23Speaker 02

  So then, anyway, this is sorry, this is a long story, but basically,

• 51:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  He said, come meet, you know, the Marvel guys. So they came to the, the fucking G-Force session,

• 51:36Speaker 02

  met with them and, and then it was kind of happening. And then Justin wrote this great monologue. And then they changed the lines and we had to write a speech at lunch and I had to use an airwig. And Mickey, Mickey was speaking Russian, but we shot the whole thing in order and Mickey didn't want to meet me until we were on film. He wanted our characters to meet on film, no rehearsal. And that's what happens. The first time you see our characters meet on film, that's the first time I ever met Mickey. And the cameras are rolling and we had a great time. And then because we were shooting it in order, our scenes, we could kind of do whatever we want narrative wise. So he said, like, I want my parrot in the movie.

• 52:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  And then Fabro was like, all right, we'll put your parrot in the movie. Yeah.

• 52:24Josh Horowitz?

  I remember at the junket, he, he brought his little chihuahua, I think.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, there you go. So that was a really, that was a very actor friendly experience.

• 52:33Josh Horowitz?

  So, but I, I, I mentioned it, but am I wrong? Did, was there a real conversation for Iron Man at any point, like before Iron Man?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, there, there was, but it was very brief. We, I talked to Fabro because I'd done made with Fabro and Peter Billingsley and they, they called me and said, would you be interested? I said, yeah, sure. You know, and they said, well, we're, we're talking to some people. And then I think,

• 52:56Speaker 02

  then I think basically Downey did Tsk Tsk Bang Bang and he screen tested and then he got the part. But, um, yeah, there was a brief conversation.

• 53:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  And I said, some, I don't know what I said.

• 53:08Josh Horowitz?

  So the last few years, Justin Hammer keeps coming back up as like rumored to come back. Armor Wars is this thing that is going to be a series or a movie or we don't know, like have?

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, there was, it was talk of a series, but, um,

• 53:23Speaker 02

  I think the movie thing would be exciting.

• 53:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:28Josh Horowitz?

  That's a character that there's still, there's still some juice to be squeezed from.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Maybe some juice. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what you get out of that guy. I mean, he's essentially Lex Luthor. It's Gene, it's Gene Hackman, Lex Luthor.

• 53:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  It's the same character, really. So.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a comedic device, the character, you know, mostly. Although he was in prison, so it could get weird.

• 53:53Josh Horowitz?

  I don't want to take up too much of your time, buddy, but I do want to mention, you mentioned the Gore Vorbinski film, which sounds right up my alley.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Dude, it's so cool, man. So cool.

• 54:00Josh Horowitz?

  You've been referencing one of my favorites of all time, Terry Gilliam, and again, speaking my language, so this is a little weird, a little future, time travel, AI, all over the place kind of thing?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Dude, it's so cool, man. I can't wait for people to see this movie.

• 54:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, it's a time travel film. Yeah, it's cool. It's in the vein of Everything Everywhere All at Once, or Back to the Future, and you know, it's like that kind of thing.

• 54:30Josh Horowitz?

  All right. And then it's been a couple of years since the last stage work. Anything on the horizon? You thinking of going back to the stage?

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're thinking about some Arthur Miller, maybe, maybe in the, yeah, maybe. Let's see, we'll see what shakes.

• 54:45Josh Horowitz?

  Thinking Death of a Salesman, View from the Bridge, what are we thinking?

• 54:48Speaker 02

  View from the Bridge, yeah. View from the Bridge, yeah.

• 54:52Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Amazing. All right, I'm gonna end with this. This is the Happy Say Confused Profoundly Random Questions, Sam. You ready for this?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:00Josh Horowitz?

  This is the important stuff. We know the answer to this, maybe not given your park experience today. Dogs or cats?

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Dogs.

• 55:10Josh Horowitz?

  Gus is on the shit list, but yes. What do you collect, if anything?

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Oh, God, I don't, I try not to, but I, I do have, I do have some DVDs and some comic books, but I, I don't really, try not to collect.

• 55:30Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Very Buddhist of you. You adopted your character's tendencies. Favorite video game of all time?

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Asteroids.

• 55:40Josh Horowitz?

  Classic. Would you, this is the Dakota Johnson memorial question. She asked me this once. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Did she ask you that?

• 55:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, obviously. Why is that weird?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Would I have a mouthful of bees or a bees? I think a bee in my Oh, I think a bee in my butt.

• 56:04Josh Horowitz?

  I think so, too. That's the general consensus.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Jeez, because it's one bee versus a bunch of bees, too.

• 56:12Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:14Josh Horowitz?

  What's the, uh, what's, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Uh, the wallpaper is Muhammad Ali.

• 56:22Josh Horowitz?

  Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Uh, either Christian Slater or Dana Carvey.

• 56:33Josh Horowitz?

  Runs the gun. Wow, okay.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:36Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, sure.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Not bad.

• 56:38Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst noted director has ever given you?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Uh, more energy.

• 56:45Josh Horowitz?

  Not helpful?

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Not helpful.

• 56:48Josh Horowitz?

  What do you say back?

• 56:50Speaker 02

  By the way, you hear that a lot. Um, I say, you do it. No, I say.

• 56:57Josh Horowitz?

  Let's switch sides. How about that?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  No, I say, uh, give me some more coffee. Give me, give me an eight ball of cocaine.

• 57:05Josh Horowitz?

  And happy sad confused. An actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're immediately happier. I'm sure it's a long list, but.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Um, I'm gonna go with, um,

• 57:17Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go with Jim Carrey.

• 57:20Josh Horowitz?

  Great. Yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Or Eddie Murphy. It's a, it's a fine line.

• 57:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  I don't know. That's a tough one. There's a lot out there.

• 57:29Josh Horowitz?

  Too many. What's a movie that always makes you sad?

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Happy, yeah.

• 57:32Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad?

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Uh, oh, jeez, um,

• 57:40Speaker 02

  sad.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Well, you know, Sophie's Choice, um, uh, you know, uh, Deer Hunter.

• 57:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  But when I get sad, I'm kind of, I kind of like being sad. So it's different, but I'm an actor. So.

• 57:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  I like to be sad.

• 57:56Josh Horowitz?

  It's your fuel. Yeah, I get it.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, and finally, a food that makes you confused, Sam. What you don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. You're confused. Why people eat the food?

• 58:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Um, not literally confused because you eat it. Um.

• 58:11Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you could do go that way too, if you want.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm confused.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Well, you, can you give me an example? What about you? Give me an example.

• 58:19Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, it's more things you just don't like. Like, I don't get, I don't get beets. I don't get.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting. I like beets. Okay.

• 58:26Josh Horowitz?

  Olive.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  It's an acquired taste.

• 58:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  You know, like olives? Interesting.

• 58:31Josh Horowitz?

  Olive oil, fine. The olives themselves, not no good.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Really? Interesting. Um. Let me see. Okay, I don't get mussels.

• 58:41Josh Horowitz?

  See, I disagree respectfully, but okay.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Okay, you like mussels. Yeah. So you gotta grow up on stuff like that, I think.

• 58:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's ingrained.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Grow up on mussels and yeah.

• 58:49Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, I wouldn't say my parents were rearing me on mussels. Like, every day, eat your mussels, Josh, but I did have them once or twice. Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  Um.

• 59:00Josh Horowitz?

  Time for bed. Don't forget your mussels.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Uh, I was not raised on beets either, but I, but I do like beets.

• 59:10Josh Horowitz?

  It was like a little judgment. Judgment in the voice, a little bit of like, I'm better than you, Josh, at the end. That's okay. We, we had forty five happy minutes and one really, really tense minute at the end. It's okay.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Uh. Well, good for you, Josh. No, there was no judgment.

• 59:27Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  It's interesting you heard that.

• 59:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I felt it. Uh. Congratulations, my friend. Uh, White Lotus, you kill it as you always do, but this one, this one in particular was a nice surprise for the world.

• 59:40Speaker 02

  Thanks, pal.

• 59:41Josh Horowitz?

  You're amazing. We should mention Leslie, your partner, obviously amazing in this show as well.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Amazing, amazing. Probably one of the more likable characters too. And, and then I think some of your short films prepared me for the White Lotus. If I may, he's so bold.

• 59:55Josh Horowitz?

  If people want to see even weirder shit from Sam Rockwell, Google Josh Hart, it's Sam Rockwell, MTV, Comedy Central, you'll see the real interesting stuff.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  A little post-traumatic stress, actually.

• 1:00:06Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Yeah. Thank you, buddy, as always.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Thanks, buddy.

• 1:00:09Josh Horowitz?

  Be well. Talk to you soon.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  All right, man. I'll see you later.

• 1:00:12Josh Horowitz?

  All right, talk to you.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Thanks, buddy.

• 1:00:14Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 1:00:34Speaker 04

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• 1:01:14Speaker 04

  and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night. It's high drama, cozy vibes, and absolute couch detective energy. Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe. Search Murder She Watched wherever you listen to podcasts, and let's solve this thing together.