Why Emotional Agility Is The Most Important Skill You Need To Know EP 1297

Dr. Susan David is one of the world’s leading management thinkers and an award-winning Harvard Medical School psychologist. She has spent the past two decades studying how the way we navigate our emotions shapes everything that matters: our actions, careers, relationships, health, and happiness. Her #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling book, Emotional Agility, describes the psychological skills critical to thriving in times of complexity and change. Dr. David’s TED Talk on emotional agility has been viewed by more than 10 million people. In this episode you will learn:Why emotional regulation is the key skill for our current world. To reshape the way you think about positivity. How to recognize your emotions as data. How to see your own self-bias. For more, go to lewishowes.com/1297Caroline Leaf on the BRAIN SCIENCE of Shaping Your Identity & Staying Positive: https://link.chtbl.com/1128-podAndrew Huberman on the Science of Positive Thinking & How to Control Your Mind: https://link.chtbl.com/1073-podMarisa Peer on How to Get Rid Of Your Negative Beliefs, Manifest Abundance & Start Loving Yourself: https://link.chtbl.com/1213-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Susan David?

  Emotions and emotion regulation, this is the skill. Yes. It's always been a skill, but it is now the skill of the current world. If these emotional skills are so crucial, why is it?

• 0:16Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:41Lewis Howes?

  Can we have peace under chaos? And can we have perspective? When something really, really bad happens, still be grateful for the silver lining or for the situation that we're not in, how bad it could be, even though it might be a bad situation? Or is that toxic to have peace and gratitude and perspective under challenges? Or should we allow ourselves to scream and be emotional and be, you know, exhausted emotionally?

• 1:14Susan David?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  When there is some type of chaotic moment in our life?

• 1:17Susan David?

  So there's a lot of questions. There's a lot of questions in this. So let's start, let's start a little bit with, with the experience of difficult emotions. And then when we're experiencing them, how do we, how do we find peace, to use your language, which I think is such a beautiful word, peace and calm, even in the midst of chaos? And then there's this like extraordinary conversation to be had around positivity. The narrative that exists in our world, and you speak to this a little bit, which is this narrative that like emotions and emotion regulation, this is the skill. Yes. It's, it's always been a skill, but it is now the skill of the current world, a

• 2:02Susan David?

  world in which complexity and fragmentation and chaos seem to be the contract that we have with life. You know, that is the contract we have. And so the, the question then becomes of, well, if these emotional skills are so crucial...

• 2:21Susan David?

  Why is it that we aren't taught it? Why is it that you've got a child who is suffering during a pandemic? Who is able to go online and find any number of math courses through Khan Academy or its equivalent? And yet that same child cannot access the kinds of emotional skills teaching that is foundational? And so before we even like talk about the inner work and the suppression and all of these things that we speak about. I think it's really important for us to recognize that we live as human beings in a context. And the context around emotion is sending particular messages.

• 3:04Susan David?

  And the messages are these, number one, there are good emotions and bad emotions. Okay, there's positive, positive emotions are experiences like joy and and happiness and, you know, grateful experiences. And the bad emotions are things like grief, sadness, anxiety, shame, distress, anger, etc. So the first thing that I think is really important, if we're even thinking about finding calm in ourselves, is to recognize that these narratives that basically put us at odds in ourselves are are a narrative, this is not a narrative that supports calm, it's not a narrative that supports clarity.

• 3:48Susan David?

  And the reason I say this, Lewis, is because when we walk through life, we walk in a way whereby beauty holds hands with fragility. Okay, you know this in your own life, you know this with your dad, where you can experience a relationship with a person and that person is no longer, that person dies you in grief. Uh, we are in a situation where we feel we are in control of. Ourselves, our strategies, our goals, our business plans, whatever it is. And then covid comes and like taps us on the shoulder, laughs in our face and says,

• 4:28Susan David?

  haha, you know, the illusion of control that you had was just that, it was an illusion. And so why am I talking about this? Like, why am I suggesting that there's this beauty and there's this fragility and they hold hands with each other? Because it's the truth, okay? Because it is the truth. And so when we think about a narrative that says, oh, you've got to be happy all the time, or you've got to be positive all the time, what that narrative does is it actually isn't real to the world that we live in. The world in which your heart will be broken. The world in which you will one day lose your jobs, in which our children will be facing not just one pandemic, but likely more.

• 5:12Susan David?

  And so what we have is a context in which the world almost feels in its narrative about emotions to be conspiring to have us not see ourselves. And really what I mean here is

• 5:28Lewis Howes?

  By suppressing the emotions or by what?

• 5:30Susan David?

  Yeah, so the feeling that there's even good and bad emotions is, is like, no, there's your emotions. You are human, you are walking through the world. You are feeling what you are feeling. There is nothing wrong with sadness, like even the narrative that there are good and bad emotions is a narrative that is, sets us up in an inner war with ourselves. And the reason this happens, or the way you see this happening, is someone might experience unhappiness, they're unhappy about something that's happened in their jobs or in their relationship. And in psychology, we call that a type A emotion or type one emotion. I'm unhappy, okay?

• 6:13Lewis Howes?

  Unhappy.

• 6:14Susan David?

  I'm unhappy, I'm sad, I'm sad about this thing that's happened. Then what we start to is we start having this idea of, but the world's telling me I've just got to be positive. The world's telling me I've got to be grateful, good vibes only. So now not only.

• 6:28Lewis Howes?

  Or I'm seeing everyone's highlight reel and I'm comparing myself, yeah.

• 6:30Susan David?

  I'm seeing everyone's reel. So now not only am I unhappy in my type one emotion, but now I've got a type two emotion, which is I'm unhappy about my unhappiness. Okay?

• 6:44Lewis Howes?

  Man, that's layered, yeah.

• 6:46Susan David?

  So we start and we do this, like, um, uh, we see this with stress. People say things like, stress is bad. Now I'm stressed about the fact that I'm stressed. Or I'm in grief and I'm being told that my grief is not a good kind of grief. And now I'm like grieving about the grief that I'm having.

• 7:05Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of like we're beating ourselves up for the emotion that we have.

• 7:08Susan David?

  It's, it is correct. It's what we're starting to do is we're starting to layer our experience of emotion, which is, which is authentic and truth to the world that we're living in. And what we're starting to do is we're starting to layer our experience of the emotion in with judgment, fighting, avoiding. That's where your suppression comes in. I don't want to feel it. Let me feel something else, hustling a war inside yourself.

• 7:40Lewis Howes?

  What happens when we do that?

• 7:42Susan David?

  What happens when we do that is firstly, we aren't developing the skills to deal with the world as it is. Not as we wish it to be. Okay?

• 7:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:53Susan David?

  The world as it is, is an imperfect world. The world as it is, is this handholding of fragility and beauty. And so when we push aside difficulty emotions, when we, when we bottle them, when we set ourselves, um, and when we're doing this in a kind of characteristic way, where it becomes our default mechanism, what we start to do is we start to, uh, have a, a couple of consequences. The first is you're not living in the world as it is. You, you're living in the world as you wish it would be. For example, someone who's unhappy in their job might say, well, at least I've got a job. Okay? There's a recession coming. At least I've got a job. And so what they do is instead of.

• 8:36Susan David?

  Facing into that unhappiness and learning from that unhappiness and using that unhappiness as a source that helps them to move forward. Instead, what they do is they unsee themselves. They turn their backs on themselves and they say, uh, you know, I I should at least be grateful that I've got a job, so I'm just gonna ignore this experience. That's suppression. And what happens is, five years later, you're still in the same job.

• 9:01Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 9:02Susan David?

  Unhappy, you haven't actually used the information to solve the problem. So that's the first thing. Forced positivity and suppression, these things, like especially forced positivity, it sounds innocuous on the surface, like what could be wrong with being grateful?

• 9:19Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 9:19Susan David?

  What could be wrong with it? But when it is forced and when it is false, these are the key criteria, forced false positivity, then what we're doing is we are failing to develop the skills to deal with the world as it is. We're failing to adapt to a world that is changing and which we are changing. The job that I was happy in five years ago, I'm no longer because I've changed. And the other thing that we know is that this kind of forced false positivity and suppression, the the forced false positivity, what is it? It's basically emotional avoidance. It's a denial strategy. Yes, it's like wrapped in rainbows and sparkles and social media memes.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:00Susan David?

  But it is forced false positivity and it's an avoidant coping strategy. So avoidant coping strategies are associated very clearly with lower rates of well-being.

• 10:12Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 10:13Susan David?

  High rates of depression, high rates of anxiety, high levels of burnout. There is a real cost. And the last thing that I would say is that when we, when we walk through life, when we walk through the world and we we are with others who are also walking through life and potentially in pain or worried or grieving or concerned, and we do forced false, everything's okay because I don't wanna go to my difficult emotions. What we are also doing is we are. Presenting in a way that is not integrated, not authentic, not true, not wise to ourselves and to our values.

• 10:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:58Susan David?

  And there is no surprise then that this orientation is connected with poorer quality of relationships.

• 11:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:08Susan David?

  Because we, we aren't connecting with people in a way that feels

• 11:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 11:13Susan David?

  real.

• 11:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, on a scale of one to 10.

• 11:16Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Lewis Howes?

  Of self-love, happiness and joy.

• 11:20Susan David?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:21Lewis Howes?

  Scale, let's call it that scale. For you, where are you currently in your life on a pretty consistent basis? A scale of one to 10 being like you're a very joyful, happy, peaceful human being, one being you're miserable.

• 11:34Susan David?

  I am a 10.

• 11:35Lewis Howes?

  A 10.

• 11:35Susan David?

  I'm a 10 and I'm fairly consistently a 10. And I know that sounds, I know when I say things like false, false positivity, I probably sound like I'm anti-happiness.

• 11:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 11:46Susan David?

  Or that I'm like, you know, like, oh, I, I'm talking about like getting stuck in our difficult emotions and, and you know, if I'm, I'm not going to force positivity, then I've got to go to these difficult emotions and I'm going to get stuck there. And I think that's worth us exploring. And, and the reason that I say that, that this, that I'm not anti-happiness is, you know, what I'm interested in is authentic happiness. I'm interested in genuine happiness. We, we, you know, years ago, I edited, just to kind of prove what a nerd I am and, and that I've got a genuine interest in authentic happiness is, a years ago, I edited a 90-chapter handbook called The Oxford Handbook of Happiness.

• 12:30Susan David?

  And really what this handbook was about is like, what do we know about happiness research? What do we know supports versus hinders people's wellbeing? And you know, what we know is that the narrative that we have about just be grateful, just be positive,

• 12:55Susan David?

  that narrative, even though it sounds, as I say, innocuous.

• 13:00Susan David?

  When we start getting so bound with it, what we start doing is we chase happiness. Rather than connecting with meaning. We start denying our difficult emotions. Rather than seeing them and being compassionate with them and understanding them. We start to move further and further away from ourselves and our center. And in doing so, we lose our capacity in the world. And so just to, you know, when I say I'm a ten.

• 13:32Lewis Howes?

  Were you always a ten?

• 13:32Susan David?

  I wasn't always a ten. I mean, I, you, you, if you listen to my TED Talk, which I know you've done. You'll know that when I was, so I was born in South Africa. I was born as a child, as a white child in the white suburbs of apartheid, South Africa. And it was very much a country and a community that was committed to not seeing. You know, to, to denial. And I described.

• 14:04Lewis Howes?

  To not seeing.

• 14:05Susan David?

  To not seeing, to not seeing the self, to not seeing others. You know, because it's denial that makes fifty years of racist legislation possible while people manage to convince themselves that they are doing nothing wrong. You know, that, that, you know, that's a kind of different level of suppression, a different level of denial.

• 14:24Susan David?

  But I described in this TED Talk, um, my father, my father dying and the experience that I had of being this little fifteen year old and putting my backpack down and going into his room on the day that he died and and his eyes being closed, but room, I, I just knew that he knew that I was there because I had always felt seen in his presence and I.

• 14:56Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 14:56Susan David?

  I described this, this like experience of, you know, he dies on the Friday. I go back to school on the Monday because my mom wants to keep things going. You know, she's raising three children and, and she's grieving the love of her life.

• 15:14Lewis Howes?

  Trying to keep it together, but grieving.

• 15:15Susan David?

  She's trying to keep it together. And so I go to school on the Monday and. The the days drift into months and the months, you know, continue and from the May now we find ourselves in November. And I described this experience that I had, which really connects, I think, with the the essence of my work, which is, I described this experience of going to school and people saying to me, how are you doing? And I'm like, I'm okay, you know, I'm okay, because isn't it true, we all become the masters of being okay, you know, we we all, I'm fine, we become the masters of being okay, we we get praised for being strong. The world

• 15:56Susan David?

  seems to value relentless positivity. And so for me, I'm this fifteen year old and I'm grieving the love of my life, my kind of warm handed father, who was such a profound guide in my life. And so on the one hand, I'm suffering and grieving and and drowning. And on the other,

• 16:26Susan David?

  I'm moving through the world in which I'm being praised for being strong and I'm telling everyone that things are okay. And so now we've got what I call segmentation. And segmentation is this experience where you've got these things that you're feeling, and then there's a disconnect between the relationships and how you're presenting. And so, Liz, I started to spiral. I mean, I was fifteen years old, I was unable to bear the weight of my grief. Things just dissolved in my family, my my mom was struggling, the creditors were knocking,

• 17:07Susan David?

  because we were struggling financially. And I started to, as so many fifteen year olds do, I was binging and purging, like unable to bear the weight of my grief.

• 17:20Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 17:21Susan David?

  And so the reason I raise this is because you asked me, like, what did I used to be? And what am I now? And like, I don't want to kind of use me as the litmus, because everyone's journey is their journey. But I had this extraordinary experience of um.

• 17:38Susan David?

  Just feeling like more and more separated from myself. And and just less and less centered. And I remember going to school one day and there was this English teacher. And she handed out these blank notebooks to the class. And she looked at me, and I still remember literally to this day, she looked at me as she handed out these blank notebooks. And it was this invitation to the class, but I felt like it was directed at me. And she said this, she said, write, tell the truth.

• 18:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:18Susan David?

  Write like no one is reading.

• 18:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:20Susan David?

  Okay, and I know you've done a lot of journaling and. And so, Lewis, I started to journal, I started to like move away from this denial and pushing away from into really stepping into and owning my experience. So every day I would write in this journal, I'd write about the grief, I'd write about the pain and and these just this like loss and regret and and all of these things. And I started to realize over a period of time that and this actually became the revolution of my work.

• 19:00Susan David?

  This is this experience with this teacher is literally what set me on the course of twenty years of being an emotions researcher. Because what I started to realize is the narrative of happiness is your right, just be happy. Uh, just pretend to be happy, just get on with it. If we think about how we speak to people who've got cancer, like just be positive, like this this narrative that exists. What I started to realize is that narrative and the way I was interacting with that narrative was actually making me more fragile.

• 19:33Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 19:33Susan David?

  You know, not less fragile, but but more fragile, less resilient, less well, less healthy. And in contrast, when I started to do this journaling and I was writing down like all these experiences and my regret and my grief and my pain. What was remarkable to me is I started to recognize the healing that was coming through that journey. And so I started to become become interested in like, why is it that we are served up this platter of? Gratitude and happiness as the end point.

• 20:11Susan David?

  Whereas actually, the way we get to anything that even vaguely connects with integrity and wellbeing is by integrity with ourselves. And so for me, it was this journaling experience. And it was interesting years later.

• 20:27Lewis Howes?

  Of the processing, the emotions.

• 20:29Susan David?

  The process, when we look at what is called expressive writing, you know, when we, when a lot of people talk about journaling and, and not why journaling is so powerful. And when you look at the very important questions of like, well, what is it that happens in journaling? What is the mechanism that, that allows journaling to be powerful? It is the sense-making that comes through journaling.

• 20:55Lewis Howes?

  The meaning.

• 20:55Susan David?

  It's the meaning-making, it's the meaning-making that comes through journaling. It's the, it's the experience of holding, holding ultimately over the period of journaling, holding your beautiful memories, in my case, of that person. So not denying them, holding them and, and, and bringing them to the surface. So that there's this beauty and there's this joy and there's this connection. And holding the grief and the loss and the pain. And bringing those two things together is the litmus of psychological health.

• 21:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 21:32Susan David?

  And wellbeing. And it's this, this learning that comes through our difficult emotions.

• 21:39Lewis Howes?

  What happens when we bring the two together? Grief and sadness and gratitude and appreciation?

• 21:44Susan David?

  Yeah, so, so what the research shows in this expressive journaling is that when people journal on it, you can even journal, you know, twenty minutes a day for three days. And you, you start finding these kind of effects. Which is, which is, it starts moving you from just being focused on the past into a presence with yourself, into a seeing with yourself. And in starting to, you know, what, what you start to recognize when you start to, to analyze people's writing, when they've gone through this expressive writing, is, and you start to say, well, like, what is it that predicts people who do better versus not? It's what predicts people who do better is that they. They aren't being a Pollyanna.

• 22:29Susan David?

  They aren't just being, oh, everything's great, everything's fine, I should just be grateful. Because at least I got to spend fifteen years with my father.

• 22:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:37Susan David?

  They're not doing that. What they're doing is they are holding their beautiful, positive experiences alongside their tough, difficult experiences, the pain, the regret. And they're starting to generate a sense of insight and meaning. So for me, as an example, and I want to come back to this teacher because it was such a remarkable thing that she said to me. The example was, I, I kind of found, not to force it or not to contrive it, but when I was doing this writing, that over a period of time, I started to connect with like a sense of resilience in myself. So it was like, I would write about these difficult experiences and then I would, and then I would like,

• 23:23Susan David?

  over time, start recognizing that I just had this like inner sense of resilience and connection. And so circling back to your word calm, I came out of the writing with a sense of having seen the self, a sense of calm. Um, does that make, does that?

• 23:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. It's interesting because when my father passed, uh, earlier this year, and thanks for reaching out and sending me a text, it was really thoughtful. When he passed, I remember everyone was asking me like, how are you doing? And I was like, to be honest, I'm sad and grateful.

• 23:55Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Lewis Howes?

  I kept saying like, I'm really sad that it happened this way and that he was in an accident for, you know, seventeen years. And I didn't get to have the relationship that I had with him. And I'm trying to find sense of that and make, find the meaning in that process. But I'm also really grateful because there were some beautiful times we had together. So I'm sad and I'm grateful. And I was just, I kept saying that, I'm like, I'm sad and I'm grateful.

• 24:20Susan David?

  Yeah, and it's, there's bothness, isn't there? And I think that's the beauty, it's like, this, this circling back to what we were saying earlier about this narrative, that they're good and bad emotions. What this does is it sets these emotions up against each other.

• 24:33Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:33Susan David?

  But, but we are. We are, you know, that beautiful, we contain multitudes. Like, we experience more than a single emotion.

• 24:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 24:46Susan David?

  Um, we can simultaneously hold these things. And so the way that we move into a space of holding them is not by making one of them good and one of them bad, but rather recognizing that what you feel is what you feel. There's, there's such power in the acceptance. I don't mean passive resignation, I just mean acceptance, like this is what I feel. And there's such power. I just wanted to quickly circle back to something that this teacher said.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 25:17Susan David?

  Years later, so this is this teacher, I'm fifteen. Uh, years, years, years later, I go to a conference and there's someone at this conference who gives a talk and she, and says, you know, there're gonna be people in your life who've really shaped who you are, shaped your experience. And if that person doesn't know that they've shaped your life and shaped your experience, reach out and let them know.

• 25:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Susan David?

  So I tracked down this teacher.

• 25:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 25:42Susan David?

  And, and I find her and I send her, you know, a bunch of flowers and I like, in this card say like, you saw me, you know, you saw me. And in seeing me, you allowed me to see myself. And I said to her, but one thing I always wanted to ask you is, Liz, I would write this journal and I would write it in pen. I would like scroll and poetry and, you know, all this kind of like teenage, fifteen year old and I would scroll it.

• 26:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:14Susan David?

  And every day, we had this like secret silent correspondence because every day I would hand this journal in and the teacher would then send it back with notes, like saying, you, you, you, you sound really sad or you, you, you know, she would have these notes, but she always had her notes in this like almost imperceptible pencil. It was like, you could barely make out what she was writing with this really light pencil. And so, so I said to her, I said to like, when we reconnected, I was like, why did you write in pencil? And she said to me, which I thought was so beautiful, she said to me, Susan, it was your story. It was your story.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:56Susan David?

  And I was simply being witness to your story, but you were crafting your story.

• 27:06Susan David?

  And it reminded me a little bit of um. Cause I know you wanna dig into emotional agility and often people say to me. You know, what is emotional agility? And I say, well, you know, I can, I can give the nerd definition, but ultimately what my work is about. Is my work is about seeing, it's about seeing and unseeing.

• 27:27Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 27:28Susan David?

  Seeing the self.

• 27:28Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean by that? Yeah.

• 27:30Susan David?

  Well, it's about seeing yourself in ways that are healthy and whole. And seeing all of you and loving all of you. And in seeing ourselves, we are then more able to see others too. And.

• 27:46Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:47Susan David?

  It reminds me a little bit of.

• 27:53Susan David?

  Primo Levi, who was a survivor of the Nazi death camps. Just in case you thought you were gonna have a live conversation.

• 28:03Susan David?

  So Levi describes, Levi was in a death camp and when the camps were liberated. He, you know, literally on the verge of death was, was released. And so he and his fellow. Death camp survivors boarded trains back to their hometowns. And Levi described how as the train pulled up into. His hometown in Italy. There were a whole lot of people waiting on the platforms for them to arrive.

• 28:42Susan David?

  And.

• 28:44Susan David?

  The people on the platforms were so horrified. By how emaciated and skinny and bow and like haggard and. Deathly the people on the trains were, the, the people had been released were that. They were so horrified by it that they, they turned away.

• 29:08Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 29:10Susan David?

  They turned away and they turned away because they were. They were unable, they were unable to metabolize, they were

• 29:19Lewis Howes?

  Couldn't process it.

• 29:20Susan David?

  Unable to process, they were unable to see. And if I described how

• 29:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 29:25Susan David?

  In many ways, that experience that he had was in many ways even more

• 29:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 29:32Susan David?

  More devastating.

• 29:34Lewis Howes?

  Than going through.

• 29:36Susan David?

  Than the experience itself.

• 29:37Lewis Howes?

  No way, wow.

• 29:38Susan David?

  And, and I think that like for me, when I talk about seeing versus unseeing,

• 29:46Susan David?

  it is really about this, this, the, the thread, which is what does it take for us to see ourselves? What does it take to see others? Because here's the thing, eh, we, we live in a world that, that really gives primacy to goals and objectives and success and all of these things, but the way we deal with our inner worlds.

• 30:09Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:09Susan David?

  The way we see ourselves, the way we deal with our difficult thoughts, like a thought might be, I'm not good enough. An emotion might be, I'm sad, I'm depressed, I'm grieving, a story might be a story of, do I even deserve love? Am I worthy? The way we deal with our inner worlds drives everything. It drives how we love, it drives how we live, how we parent, how we lead, our health behaviors, our ability to achieve those goals, it drives everything. And that is the centrality of my work, which is about healthy seeing. And, and just to kind of, so healthy seeing is about firstly, holding

• 30:50Susan David?

  both the joy and the discomfort together.

• 30:57Susan David?

  And recognizing that we don't need to be owned by any of it because we are more than those things as well. And we are able to move forward towards our values.

• 31:06Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, I think a lot of people would probably admit, maybe not publicly, but they probably admit to like someone close to them if they were truly honest with themselves. That for a period of their life, they didn't believe they were worthy of love.

• 31:22Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 31:23Lewis Howes?

  There's probably a good amount of people in the world that don't, that aren't as adults, good at receiving love. They don't believe they deserve it. And maybe there's a whole nother spectrum of people, you know, that's all they do is they love themselves too much, you know, it's like very narcissistic or something like that. But I think there's a lot of people that doubt themselves.

• 31:41Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  They doubt themselves by certain stories they've told themselves, certain things that have happened in their lives that confirm they're not deserving of love.

• 31:49Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Lewis Howes?

  Being picked on, bullied, parents, whatever it might be, broken up with boyfriend, girlfriend, all that stuff. How do we believe we are worthy of love? How do we learn to believe that we, as an individual, are deserving of love?

• 32:04Susan David?

  Yeah, that's such a powerful question. And I just want to kind of circle back. You gave narcissism as an example of, of self-love.

• 32:11Lewis Howes?

  They actually hate themselves the most.

• 32:13Susan David?

  Actually narcissism is a manifestation

• 32:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Susan David?

  of very often low self-esteem.

• 32:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 32:21Susan David?

  I think one of the most important aspects of this, this fight for worthiness, really, because that is, that is what it is. And I think that, that all of us as humans at some level fight for worthiness. And I think the really important part of, you know, when I talk about agility versus rigidity, you know, my work is on emotional agility in contrast to emotional rigidity. And so I think what becomes really important in that is if we think about the kinds of thoughts that people have, I've given some examples of like, I'm not good enough, or there's no point in trying. Okay?

• 33:03Susan David?

  Emotions, emotions like grief and anger, or stories, stories about whether I'm worthy of love, whether I'm not. Okay. So a really important part of actually being able to move forward in the world with integrity is recognizing that these are normal. Okay? And, and this is really, really important.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  This thought or this feeling that I'm not enough?

• 33:29Susan David?

  Any of it, any of it and all of it is actually normal. There is nothing good or bad, right or wrong about sanct yourself.

• 33:41Susan David?

  Or the automatic thought that says like, gee, I'm gonna stuff this up. Okay, there is, that is literally your body and your psychology doing the job that it was meant to do. Which is to help you to make sense of the world, to adapt and respond. If you were never concerned about how you sounded,

• 34:08Susan David?

  you would have no friends.

• 34:09Lewis Howes?

  You wouldn't get anywhere.

• 34:10Susan David?

  You wouldn't get anywhere. If you were never concerned about whether you should be fearful about something or not.

• 34:18Lewis Howes?

  You'd be dead.

• 34:19Susan David?

  You'd be dead.

• 34:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Susan David?

  Okay, so this whole narrative, which is that there's some thoughts that are good and some thoughts that are bad and some emotions, is actually like a, a, um, it's a completely false narrative. And so one of the core ways we start to dismantle the narrative is by recognizing that these thoughts, emotions and stories are normal.

• 34:41Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 34:42Susan David?

  They are normal sense-making machines. You know, you are absolutely, your brain is doing its job when it's helping you to kind of judge, be curious, assess, understand. But what happened, like that's your brain doing its job. So when do we become hooked? When do we become rigid? When are we now being unhealthy?

• 35:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, when it's holding, when it's holding us back.

• 35:04Susan David?

  When it's holding us back and when we start being imprisoned by them.

• 35:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 35:09Susan David?

  Okay, so in psychological terms, the language for this is fusion. Or in my book on emotional agility, I call this hooked. So, so.

• 35:17Lewis Howes?

  Hooked meaning like trapped in your feelings, thoughts, you can't progress in life.

• 35:22Susan David?

  So, so let's, so, so.

• 35:24Lewis Howes?

  You're suffering in it.

• 35:25Susan David?

  The thought of, I'm not good enough.

• 35:30Susan David?

  Or am I gonna succeed at this? Or maybe often, these are normal. Okay, normal. Fusion or being hooked is when you say.

• 35:40Susan David?

  I'm not good enough. Therefore, there's no point in me trying.

• 35:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:45Susan David?

  Okay.

• 35:45Lewis Howes?

  Believe it a hundred percent.

• 35:46Susan David?

  So, yeah, so what you're starting to do is you're starting to take this normal thought emotional story and you are starting to let it define you. Hence the word fusion. You know, you are now fused.

• 35:58Lewis Howes?

  Becomes your identity.

• 35:59Susan David?

  It becomes, it's literally like the emotion owns you rather than you owning it. This is really important. We own our emotions, they don't own us. So when you talk about how do we move into a space of generating a sense of, of connection with self and self-worth. Firstly, recognizing that the way you've often responded doesn't need judgment. It just needs compassion because it's hard to human. It's, do you know what I mean? It's hard to human.

• 36:37Lewis Howes?

  It is.

• 36:38Susan David?

  So, so there's firstly that. The second thing that becomes important is, is, and this again connects with this idea of rigidity, which is recognizing that when you were that five-year-old child and you were learning how to survive.

• 36:57Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:59Susan David?

  That those strategies that you used at that age were actually functional.

• 37:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:08Susan David?

  In other words, those strategies probably protected you.

• 37:10Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:11Susan David?

  You know, if you were bullied and therefore you stopping vulnerable as an example, that strategy actually was protective. So it was actually a functional strategy. What happens is we start moving into a point where we, the strategy is no longer helpful to us. So now imagine you've developed these strategies of defensiveness of always wanting to be right, of like all of these things that we develop.

• 37:39Lewis Howes?

  Competing.

• 37:39Susan David?

  Competing, like whatever it is for us. So we start developing these strategies and then. We move into a different part of our lives. Now we, now we've got someone who really loves us.

• 37:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:53Susan David?

  And who wants to be with us and where our once functional strategy of shutting down and of being protective is now not, not functional. In other words, we've outgrown, just like we outgrow our shoes, just like we outgrow our clothes. When we move into different phases of our lives, we outgrow strategies. And so it becomes really important, this is where these emotional agility skills come in, to recognize that when, when we are hooked, we are often not sensitive to the context. We're often on seeing the person in front of us.

• 38:34Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:35Susan David?

  We're seeing the five-year-old who is fighting for survival.

• 38:39Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:41Susan David?

  And so what does that mean? That means we really owe ourselves huge amounts of compassion, compassion for that child. And we, we also, there's this beautiful, uh, there's this beautiful quote by Heraclitus, the Greek philosopher, who, he describes this idea, he says, you know, as a human being, you can never step into the same river twice.

• 39:09Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:10Susan David?

  And what is that saying? It's saying the world is always changing. Technology, the economy, politics, like the world is always changing.

• 39:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 39:21Susan David?

  And we as human beings are changing. If we didn't, there would be something wrong with us.

• 39:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:31Susan David?

  And so with change comes confusion, comes difficult emotions.

• 39:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 39:38Susan David?

  Comes, um, the, the.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  It's uncomfortable to change, you know, it's.

• 39:43Susan David?

  It's uncomfortable and it's because it's uncomfortable that it's so important to be gentle with it. Because, because it's like you being gentle with.

• 39:54Susan David?

  You holding hands with yourself in your walk through life.

• 39:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 39:59Susan David?

  And and as opposed to staying stuck where you once were. And so when you're walking through life and you're walking to a new place, whether that new place is a new job or a new career or a new idea or a new relationship, there's there's such beauty in holding hands with yourself.

• 40:16Lewis Howes?

  It's going back to what you're just talking about. It sounds like the memories of our past that are connected to a painful emotion hold us back or could potentially hold us back in the future to not feel those pain, those painful emotions again, right?

• 40:33Susan David?

  Yes.

• 40:34Lewis Howes?

  It's these stories that we have attached a memory with an emotion, I guess.

• 40:39Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 40:39Lewis Howes?

  From these events.

• 40:40Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Lewis Howes?

  Right? Whether it's on some people's point of view extremely traumatic or something smaller, but it could still be very traumatic.

• 40:49Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 40:49Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 40:50Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Lewis Howes?

  Those memories seem to hold us back. It's almost like if we could, you know, erase all the memories of our past and enter into the world as this human being without those memories, would we be able to be more unapologetic in taking action on things we want to take action on? Will we have more confidence?

• 41:09Susan David?

  Yeah, I think that's such a powerful question. I mean, I think that like the memories hold us back and certainly, but that also that also move us forward. I mean, there's, there's, there's the memory of.

• 41:20Lewis Howes?

  They protect us too.

• 41:21Susan David?

  They protect us, they're all of these things. But I also, but we, we can be hooked by a past, but we can also be hooked by today. You know, we know that when people are experiencing a lot of stress, when the world is changing quickly, when your job's changing and there's like yet another, you know, yet another transformation, yet another, whatever it is. When human beings experience huge amounts of stress or or even normal amounts of stress, normal amounts of confusion, there actually tends to be a cognitive narrowing. And so what I mean by this is we tend to, as we experience more ambiguity and more stress or more technology,

• 42:06Susan David?

  it's almost like the technology has outpaced our human capacity to deal with it. Because human beings, when human beings, if we think about the evolutionary survival mechanism.

• 42:17Susan David?

  When we are experiencing stress and threat, there is a perceptual narrowing, literally a cognitive narrowing. So there's a focus. And that focus might be, I'm hooked on being right in my Twitter feed. I'm, you know, I'm stuck in my emotion today because there's a, there's a, there's a narrowing. So we can be inagile and rigid because of past experiences, but we can also be inagile and rigid because there's just a lot of stuff coming at us. And like, the, the World Economic Forum talks about these emotional agility skills as being the skills of the future for exactly this reason.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  I mean, you can tell also from like the greatest leaders, you know, the ones that are, are flexible in their ability to relate and connect to different people, the ones that can handle the pressure without going right into fear mode or attack mode, but the ones can see it and not narrow their focus, but widen their focus and see everything and maneuver with flexibility are the ones that typically are able to last in business, in relationships, as coaching teams, you know, in sports, they're the ones that succeed over time.

• 43:34Susan David?

  Yeah, they, they land up being able to have contextual awareness. So what you're starting to do is you're starting to move away from a rigid story defining your action into being able to zoom out and getting a greater sense of like, what is the full scope of what I'm experiencing in front of me? And, and what you described there is so important because, so firstly, I just wanted to, I just wanted to say you'd asked the question about how do we start developing greater levels of self-worth? I think one of the most powerful ways we do this is through action. Through, through action, through, you know, making choices, even if those choices are difficult, that feel connected with our values,

• 44:20Susan David?

  keeping promises to ourselves. It's through action, we, we're starting to develop the sense. But you mentioned leaders. And it really connects me with.

• 44:33Susan David?

  You know, I know it's like an obvious thing to draw on, but but it connects me with Nelson Mandela.

• 44:37Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 44:38Susan David?

  Partly because of my history, but but one of the cause, the one of the foundational ideas of my work is firstly that these emotions aren't good or bad. And secondly, that emotions are data, okay, that emotions are data, that emotions signpost our needs. And this is very different from the, oh, I'm feeling sad, just push it aside. What this is actually saying is we we aren't just trying to manage our difficult emotions as in a like clinical I C, you know, manage them. Manage is the wrong word, regulate even, we aren't even trying to regulate them.

• 45:16Susan David?

  Actually, we can take it way beyond there into the extraordinary recognition that our emotions are data. That our emotions are shining a light on our needs and our values. And so for the person who's feeling bored.

• 45:43Susan David?

  And you can be busy and bored at the same time, as as we know.

• 45:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 45:47Susan David?

  Boredom is saying, hey, you care about learning, you care about growth, and you don't have enough of that. So if you're feeling bored at work, what that's actually signposting is a value.

• 46:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:01Susan David?

  And it's actually saying you can move towards that value, you can put your hand up for a new project, you can extend yourself, you can have different conversations with your team. If you're bored in a relationship, or what I call over competent, you know, you go out for dinner, you know exactly what you're.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  Too comfortable.

• 46:17Susan David?

  Yeah, you know exactly what the person's opinion of the movie is going to be and what they're going to order and what you're going to talk about. That boredom, which is a key risk factor for disengagement, that boredom is actually saying.

• 46:29Susan David?

  You care about growth and learning.

• 46:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:31Susan David?

  How can you bring more growth and learning to this relationship?

• 46:34Lewis Howes?

  You're not living in your values right now.

• 46:35Susan David?

  Yeah, and and we can do this by expanding the breadth, the types of things we talk about, the depth. You know, when you went on the first date and you ask someone about their hopes and dreams, but when you've been married for ten years, you might not ask it anymore. But ask it.

• 46:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:50Susan David?

  Ask it because that is bringing you towards your values. You know, Nelson Mandela spoke about something very powerful. He didn't push anger aside. He spoke about getting into relationship with his anger. He spoke about his anger signaling his values. And that a value that was really important to him was under threat. Okay, which is, which is equality and the fall of apartheid. You know, the dismantling of apartheid. So it wasn't about pushing emotion aside.

• 47:29Susan David?

  So so here's this idea, it's emotions are data, but they're not directives. So I'm gonna play this out for you. Emotions are data, they're not directives. Emotions are data because they signpost our needs and our values. But they're not directives. Just because I feel angry doesn't mean I get to have it out with everyone in front of me.

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I scream at people.

• 47:52Susan David?

  Yeah, just because I feel sad and I don't want to get out of bed doesn't mean now I give in to my sadness because that's like, we spoke about bottling earlier, that's just now brooding. Then you you're imprisoned by your difficult emotions. So Nelson Mandela said something extraordinary. He described how in order to effectively navigate his anger, he needed to learn how to sit down with his oppressor.

• 48:18Susan David?

  And and this is very powerful. Well, no, he, he, the emotion was signposting his values, his values around equity. In order to actually move towards his values, he couldn't be held by his rage. He actually needed to step into the wisdom that his emotions were pointing to, which is, if you want conversation, if you want collaboration, if you want to be seen, then you need to put yourself in a situation in which you are collaborating, in which you are seen, in which you are conversing.

• 49:00Susan David?

  And so Nelson Mandela, one of the most powerful things that he did was sitting down to talk.

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

  But you can't sit down with your emotions in anger and rage, because someone's not going to be able to receive that in collaboration.

• 49:14Susan David?

  Emotions are data, not directives. It's like, it's the, it's the.

• 49:18Lewis Howes?

  It's not credible.

• 49:19Susan David?

  Correct.

• 49:20Lewis Howes?

  It's not credible. If you're screaming at me because you're upset that I did something I wasn't even aware of, I'm gonna be like, what are you talking about?

• 49:26Susan David?

  It's the understanding of what the emotion is signposting.

• 49:33Lewis Howes?

  To communicate.

• 49:34Susan David?

  In order to step into the wisdom of your values. So it's not the emotions that are driving you. It's not the emotions that are the directives. It is the values and the wisdom. And I think this is so important because when you live in a polarized society, we become so hooked on being right, that actually the focus on being right is very often taking us away from the values that we are professing.

• 50:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, the wanting the equality or whatever it might be or something, yeah.

• 50:10Susan David?

  We want to be inclusive, but we being so exclusive in our opinion or in there's only this one way to be in our opinion.

• 50:19Lewis Howes?

  Or we want to be seen, but we won't see someone else, unless they see it their point of view, whatever it might be, right?

• 50:25Susan David?

  So it's like so interesting because it's this, it's this like.

• 50:30Susan David?

  Holding of the healthy emotion and the only way we can move away from the immersion in rage is when we actually have a when we have a healthy relationship with that, where we see that rage is being helpful from a data perspective, but but also we we try to glean the value the values that are being pointed to from the difficult emotion.

• 50:56Lewis Howes?

  So like Nelson Mandela, he sat with his anger or whatever emotion he had, he sat with it, he was developing a relationship with it. And then he would use his information to communicate what he wanted.

• 51:09Susan David?

  Yeah, to move towards what you care about. And and it's like we can play this out in so many ways. If we think about loneliness, loneliness is loneliness is on the increase. And and we can be lonely in a crowd. We can literally, when people are lonely, very often what they do then is they put up even more of a barrier because they feel so almost enveloped in that loneliness. But loneliness is signposting that you you need more intimacy and connection. And so if we can step into those values more purposefully and more fully, that is, you know, that's why when you, when when we say like, well, what is emotional agility? Well, it's it's about seeing and unseeing. What is the

• 51:54Susan David?

  what is the the like, true definition of of it?

• 51:58Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 51:58Susan David?

  Emotional agility is about the ability to be with all of our thoughts, our emotions and our experiences in ways that are curious. You know, what is this emotion trying to tell me? In ways that are compassionate, because it's hard to human. And in ways that are courageous, having that difficult conversation doesn't always feel good. We we we don't get to have a meaningful career or leave the world a better place or raise a family without stressing discomfort.

• 52:30Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting, you know, as I've been In my relationship with my girlfriend Martha, I said in the very beginning, I said, listen, we can have all the uncomfortable conversations you want to have. There's stuff from my past I'm not proud of that I'm gonna share with you. There's probably stuff that you may want to talk about, but maybe it doesn't feel good for me, the way you're saying things, whatever. I can't predict it, but there should be no reason we ever scream or react with anger towards each other, in my opinion. But we can have all the uncomfortable conversations you want. We can communicate as healthy, conscious, courageous, compassionate adults.

• 53:05Susan David?

  Yes.

• 53:06Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't mean you have to lean into the emo- I can feel the emotion. I'm like, that's sad, that hurts me, that's, it makes me feel a little angry. But it doesn't mean I need to direct, they're not my directions, like you said.

• 53:17Susan David?

  Yeah, yeah, because again, we own our emotions, they don't own us. And this is where some of these agility skills, like some actual kind of practical skills come in.

• 53:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 53:29Susan David?

  That can be helpful to people.

• 53:30Lewis Howes?

  You have this post I saw on your Instagram, which I love. The best question to ask yourself in a moment of stress or conflict. And what you have in this post is asking yourself these questions. What action could I take in this, that in, that is most aligned with my values? And the reason I like this post is because you keep talking about values in this conversation. Most people don't know what their values are.

• 53:54Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Lewis Howes?

  And so what happens when we aren't clear on our values, in general?

• 54:00Susan David?

  Well, a couple of things. Of course, a couple of things, of course, like you're talking to like the nerd of the stuff. So I'll say like, well, there are 23 things, there's like 27 things.

• 54:09Lewis Howes?

  If we don't have values or we're not clear on our values, what happens?

• 54:12Susan David?

  There are a couple of things that happen. The first thing that happens is we are more likely to be subject to what is called social contagion. And social contagion is

• 54:25Susan David?

  Uh, where we basically pick up on other people's values or other people's emotions. And so, you know, there's some very beautiful epidemiological studies that, for instance, show that if someone in your social network gets divorced, as an example, even if you do not know the person, you are more likely to get divorced.

• 54:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 54:48Susan David?

  Okay, because this, this like divorce is almost like behaviorally normalized for you. And you start to adopt it as something that's your own. It's like okay to do. Some other examples, imagine you get on an airplane and you are, you know, kind of vaguely trying to be healthy, but it's not really connected at a deep level with you. And your seat partner buys candy.

• 55:15Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 55:16Susan David?

  You are seventy percent more likely to buy candy.

• 55:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 55:20Susan David?

  Okay, and this might sound like, oh, well, you know, who cares? It's just like a one off thing. But if you think about it, what starts to happen is

• 55:28Susan David?

  we, we can start to absorb the way other people live. Uh, our next door neighbor drives a particular car. We want that car. We want that promotion. Like, social media, like, there's all of this thing that starts to create a context in which our behaviors aren't actually our behaviors. They are actually the behaviors of others. You know, oh, that person on social media has got that beautiful pair of jeans. I'm never concerned that I might want that pair of jeans, but now I, you know, now I've got to have them. So we start to absorb other people's behaviors and you, you saw this very clearly in the pandemic. It's like one person is loading their shopping cart with like

• 56:12Susan David?

  more toilet paper than they would ever use in their lives. And now everyone's doing it. So this is social contagion.

• 56:19Lewis Howes?

  So is this like, so is this like our, and would our values become our identity then?

• 56:23Susan David?

  No, so this is, this is because there's emotions in the world and there's behaviors in the world. And we start, we are humans and we are social species and we start picking them up.

• 56:32Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 56:33Susan David?

  So, and I'll, I'll get to the kind of values piece because it's really important. So let me plow out a, a kind of example here, which is imagine you, and, and this is based on some research on this. So imagine you are someone who has grown up in an environment, in a community in which Every message that you've ever gotten is, we don't go to college. Okay, we're not college material. We don't go to college, like this is not who we are. But you fight and you, you like, you do everything you can and you go to college. And then, because life's beauty holds hands with its fragility. One day you're in college and you failed your first test or things don't go so well or. You know, something happens, like things feel stressful.

• 57:17Susan David?

  So at that point, there is a significant likelihood that that person will actually drop out of college.

• 57:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:27Susan David?

  So what's fascinating here is we always think, we, we, people talk about bias a lot, you know. Oh, this person's biased and that person's biased.

• 57:36Susan David?

  You know, they, they, they're like biased against my gender or whatever it is. But what we don't talk about is self bias. So, so what is self bias? Self bias is when you've grown up in an environment in which there is some kind of narrative. We don't do college here as one example.

• 57:56Susan David?

  And then stress happens because stress happens or change happens because change happens.

• 58:00Lewis Howes?

  You fall back into that self bias.

• 58:01Susan David?

  You, yeah, you actually start to use that bias against yourself. So you start to say things like, maybe they were right. Okay, maybe they were right, maybe I'm just never gonna have a, a healthy relationship. Maybe they were right, maybe I'm not cut out for this. So that's why we see at this point, many of these college students will drop out. But now this getting back to values. If you take these college students and you engage them in a brief writing exercise. And you ask them, literally for ten minutes, to write down why they are studying this particular degree. Why it's important to them, what their purpose is, what their values are.

• 58:44Susan David?

  What the core is of what they're doing here, why they're doing it. In other words, you're asking them what their why is. What we know is that that ten minute exercise actually protects those students.

• 58:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 58:58Susan David?

  Years down the track.

• 59:00Lewis Howes?

  Cause they'll always go back to, ah, it's really hard this week or this semester.

• 59:03Susan David?

  But this is why I'm doing this. This is why I'm doing this. And so when you ask the question, which is, why is it, what happens when we don't know our values? What happens when we don't know our values is, number one, we start living someone else's life. Okay. Through social contagion. Number two, when things get stressful, we, we don't have the, the inner core to actually help us to respond effectively. And, and I often think about this, this kind of analogy, which is, which is, um,

• 59:44Susan David?

  well, like if we think metaphorically, like a gymnast, you know, what's going on with a gymnast? Like a gymnast is, or in any kind of sports, a gymnast is, there's everything going on in the environment. There's, there's, there's the crowd, there's the music, there's the, how everyone else is doing in the competition. There's the, there's the individual who, you know, is doing, she's doing her routine and falls slightly differently every time. And yet, there is this core that helps the person to right themselves, to connect with themselves. And that's what your values do.

• 1:00:18Lewis Howes?

  That's so good.

• 1:00:18Susan David?

  That's what your values do.

• 1:00:20Lewis Howes?

  That's so good. In this post that you have about that, which is, is this aligned with my values? Which I think is the first thing we should be asking ourselves. Is it aligned with my values? Another one you have here is, I may be right in this, in this moment, but is my response serving me? And is it serving my values, really? Is it serving my values and my vision? Is it serving me from where my values are and where I wanna go?

• 1:00:43Susan David?

  Yeah, like I may be right, but is it serving, like?

• 1:00:46Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 1:00:47Susan David?

  I, I had this, I had this experience with this individual executive a couple of years ago. He worked for the United Nations and he was, um,

• 1:00:59Susan David?

  He was rarely involved in food security. Like, he was bringing food to people who would otherwise not get it. And I had this conversation with this individual. And he said to me that in order to do his job effectively, he needed to work with a particular government official in this country. And he could not stand this guy, okay? He was like, I cannot stand him. I, he's awful. He's like, I can't stand him, okay? And so what was he doing? He's like, and I'm just avoiding his calls because I just can't deal. And so I was like, we had this conversation.

• 1:01:40Susan David?

  And, and the reason that that is rigid is because firstly, the person may have been right, okay? The guy might have been a complete idiot, whatever, who knows? But the reason it's rigid is because he would say to me, this man talks to me like my father used to talk to me. And there is no ways I'm putting up with it. And the reason that it's rigid is because it either asks for new childhood or for new government official.

• 1:02:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:02:11Susan David?

  Okay? Neither of which are likely, neither of which are likely.

• 1:02:14Lewis Howes?

  Maybe eighty years or something, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:16Susan David?

  Correct, correct. So it's like this, this example again of David Not Director.

• 1:02:20Lewis Howes?

  Is it serving you to get what you want?

• 1:02:21Susan David?

  Is it, like, I may be right, but is my response serving me? Is it bringing me closer to being the person, the loved one, to having the relationship, the life that I most want to have?

• 1:02:36Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. I love this stuff. I feel like I could go for an hour with you. But I wanna, I've got a few more questions. I'm curious, with all your, you've been doing this study, studying for how many decades now? I mean, two decades?

• 1:02:46Susan David?

  Don't even ask.

• 1:02:47Lewis Howes?

  Two decades?

• 1:02:47Susan David?

  I'm such a nerd. I'm like, it's, it's like an awful party thing. Like, what do you do? Oh, uh, you know, how many emotions research or work in, yeah. More than two decades, yeah.

• 1:02:57Lewis Howes?

  You've been doing this for a while.

• 1:02:58Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Lewis Howes?

  What has more control over us if we allow it? And what has the most power if we step into it? Our thoughts, our emotions, or our feelings? What consumes us and holds us back? Of the three the most and which one if we step into it propels us forward in a positive way the most.

• 1:03:21Susan David?

  So can I reframe that a little bit?

• 1:03:22Lewis Howes?

  Do it to me.

• 1:03:23Susan David?

  Because I wanna, okay. So this, sometimes people say things like which comes first, you know, do your thoughts come first, do your emotions come first, which is stronger? In truth, uh, there are multi-directional effects. So let me give you an example. Sometimes people can experience an emotion. And then they, that emotion turns into a feeling. In other words, we ascribe some kind of interpretation to it. And we know that say someone is feeling um. A little bit negative, not super negative, but a little bit negative. We know that that emotion actually impacts on their thinking and their decision making. So.

• 1:04:05Lewis Howes?

  The emotion impacts.

• 1:04:06Susan David?

  The emotion impacts of thinking. So when you are trying to do very creative work. If you're feeling more joyous. You are more likely to think big picture, creative, have lots of amazing ideas. Okay, because again, when you're feeling more joyous, you have a perceptual widening. Therefore, you are able to kind of bring things into being that maybe didn't previously exist. And when you're in a more neutral to negative mood, you've got a perceptual narrowing. So imagine you're trying to write a book. This is why we say when you're trying to write a book, do the creative work.

• 1:04:50Susan David?

  When you're in one frame of mind and do the more editorial work when you're in another frame of mind. Because when you're in a neutral to negative mood, you are actually more likely to find errors. You are more likely to do better editing work. And so this is this example, you know, this is this example in the workplace where people say, oh, you know, you've just got to, people have got to be positive all the time. Which is ridiculous and which creates a lack of psychological safety. But more than that, when you're pitching something to a client. Being connected and generative is gonna create more of an expansive receptiveness. But when you and your team are trying to figure out what could go wrong here, actually a neutral to negative mood actually supports you.

• 1:05:34Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Well, okay, let me ask you a question about.

• 1:05:36Susan David?

  But I wanna like step into the power of this, so let's go there because.

• 1:05:40Lewis Howes?

  Let me ask, stay there, let me ask you a question about sports though, because when I was on lots of different sports teams, if there was ever negative people, negative attitudes, it would pull down the entire team. You know, whether it be during a practice, during a game, it would kind of throw the rest of the team off. If someone was negative. Now, if you're in watching a game film and you're saying, how could this have been better? And you're more critical in your thinking and you're assessing, I could have made this shot better or this route, whatever it might be. But it's, but in sports, it was never about like having a negative attitude about it. Because then that would kind of pull the energy down. So how does that work with sports, I guess?

• 1:06:19Susan David?

  Yeah, well, I think there's a difference between, again, someone being stuck in the being negative relative to creating psychological safety. Where someone says, you know, the way we're doing this tackle might not work because of such and such.

• 1:06:39Lewis Howes?

  Got it. As opposed to just being like, yeah, I agree with everything.

• 1:06:41Susan David?

  Yeah, so it's really, it's really fascinating when you look at how this plays out in organizations. A lot of leaders will say things like, you're on the bus or you're off the bus. You know, you with me or you against me? And so what's bound up in that idea is that if you say something that is difficult or if you highlight that something might not be working out, there's something wrong with you. You know, there's something wrong with you. And so what happens? People see a potential error that might happen and they push it aside. They don't say anything because they don't want to be seen as negative. So actually, when you think about organizations and you think about like innovation, innovation holds hands with failure. You know, collaboration holds hands with conflict.

• 1:07:23Susan David?

  And so you don't actually get to have an organization that is agile without emotional agility, without an openness to all of these difficult emotions. So when you recognize that someone is saying, hey, I'm concerned about the strategy.

• 1:07:39Susan David?

  I'm really concerned about it. What is that emotion signposting? The emotion might be signposting, not that the person's negative, but that the person actually cares about the outcome.

• 1:07:50Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm, that's cool.

• 1:07:51Susan David?

  You know, that they care about the client, they care about the customer. And so when you're a leader and you create the space for the lack of judgment about good or bad emotions,

• 1:08:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Susan David?

  you move into a different way of being.

• 1:08:06Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. Okay, thoughts, emotions.

• 1:08:08Susan David?

  Okay, so thoughts, emotions. So the, the, the truth is that these things are completely, you know, multidirectional and neither one comes first. So for all of these things, however, we can be stuck in a thought, we can be stuck in an emotion, we can be stuck in a story. And so this is where these critical strategies are coming to, to play. So I'll give you two examples. You were talking about stepping into your power.

• 1:08:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:08:30Susan David?

  Okay, so you're showing up to a difficult emotion, you're showing up with curiosity, but the truth is you feel grieving. You feel sad, you feel stressed, and that's, that's the truth for you. So it is really difficult to read the instructions when you are stuck inside the jar, okay? When you are stuck inside the difficult emotion, it's difficult to be able to create the space for values because you're so immersed in it. And I remember, actually, it was, it was a couple of months ago. I had the fortune of speaking with NASA. And it was one of those beautiful examples where you're like giving the example

• 1:09:15Susan David?

  and it, it completely is like their world, which is this, this thing that astronauts describe, which is that when they go into space, the further and further they get from the earth,

• 1:09:30Susan David?

  the more, it's called the overview effect, the more they see the earth as being just this like tiny pinprick.

• 1:09:39Susan David?

  And that there is something so beautiful that happens in that moment because the astronauts are both reminded of simultaneously of their insignificance, okay, I mean insignificant, and of their significance because there's something that feels so powerful in being able to observe the earth. And we can do the same with our emotions. We can move away from the immersion in our difficulty emotions into being able to observe them.

• 1:10:14Lewis Howes?

  Seeing it from the side.

• 1:10:16Susan David?

  Seeing them. So we're now outside, outside the jar. And so there are a couple of ways that we do this. It's beautiful. It's like this significance and insignificance. So there's some ways that we do this. The first is something that I speak about a fair bit in my work. It's this area called emotion granularity. And it's this idea that very often when we're stuck in a difficulty emotion, we use big labels to describe what we're feeling. We say, no, I'm stressed. Okay, I'm stressed is the most common one.

• 1:10:46Lewis Howes?

  I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed.

• 1:10:47Susan David?

  I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed, I'm depressed. We use these like big, broad brushstrokes. But there is a world of difference between stressed and disappointed.

• 1:10:58Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:59Susan David?

  Or stress and feeling unsupported, stress and that knowing, knowing feeling of I'm in the wrong job, the wrong career, this relationship isn't working out. When you label something just as stress, your body and your psychology doesn't actually know what to do with it because it feels immobilizing. There's like such an enveloping that happens. So you ask the question of how do you start stepping into your power? And one of the ways you start stepping into your power is in you want to start creating space between you and the emotion. You know, Viktor Frankl, between stimulus and response, there is a space. How do you start creating the space? So you're not fused, you're stepping into.

• 1:11:38Susan David?

  So one of the most profound ways we can do this is by developing skills of emotion granularity. So emotion granularity is basically that instead of having this broad brushstroke, I feel stressed.

• 1:11:55Susan David?

  Starting to ask yourself, what are two other options? Like, I'm calling this thing stress, but what else is it? And when we start saying, oh, it's not stress, actually, it's unsupported. What that already literally just in naming this thing. It starts to activate our understanding of the cause of the emotion. What we need to do in response to the emotion. And what scientists call the readiness potential in our brains, the part of our brains that starts to mobilize us for action. Starts to to get activated. And so emotional granularity is really powerful.

• 1:12:35Susan David?

  And I remember a couple of years ago, I was working with an executive and he would always say his, his, his big word was anger. He would say, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry. And I started to say, I'm like, what are two other things? Like, what else could you be experiencing? And he started to say, actually, maybe I'm not angry, maybe I'm fearful. Okay, I'm in a new role, things are changing, I think I'm fearful. And what about your team? You know, is your team angry? He started to connect with, I think they're mistrusting. Okay, I think they're mistrusting. So you can see, Lewis, if you feel anger, if you are, I'm angry and my team's angry.

• 1:13:19Susan David?

  The conversation is a very different one than I'm scared. And my team is looking for opportunities to build trust. You can see that the the tone, the the experience of it is different. And a couple of months later, I was having a dinner with him and a group of his colleagues and his wife was there. And she said, this particular strategy completely changed their relationship. Because he would come home from work and he would say to her, are you angry? And she would be, I'm not angry. You know, I feel unsupported. Or I'm not angry, I'm just tired. Okay, so emotional granularity is a superpower.

• 1:14:03Susan David?

  And I know that word is overused, but.

• 1:14:09Susan David?

  Children as young as two and three years old, who are more able to accurately label their emotions, have higher levels of wellbeing, literally longitudinal studies, ability to delay gratification,

• 1:14:25Susan David?

  high levels of, you know, mental health and so on. And if, if you think about what's happening here,

• 1:14:33Susan David?

  if you've got a child where the child's now sixteen and someone says like, hey, I've got a great idea. Let's take drugs or whatever it is. On the one hand, the child wants to feel part of the group. There's a sense of excitement and, and, and connection.

• 1:14:51Susan David?

  And then on the other, the child who has mastered at some level emotion granularity is able to connect with the disquiet. And gee, this doesn't connect with my values. So it doesn't take a lot of work to, to see how emotion granularity is, is actually profoundly useful to us in our lives.

• 1:15:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:15:16Susan David?

  So the other thing that I think is, is helpful in terms of getting out the bottle, getting out the jar, is being capable not to fuse with your emotions. So what is a way that we defuse? So if I play this out to you and I say to you, well, Lewis, you are a brother and you're an entrepreneur and you are a son and you're a friend and you're a, okay, of course, like you're like, yes, of course, I'm all of those things. I can, we, we know that we can hold all of those identities. What often happens when we get hooked, imprisoned by our thoughts, emotions, stories is,

• 1:15:58Susan David?

  We we over identify with it. And so we start saying things like, I am sad. Okay, if we just think about the language, it's so normal. Of course we say that. I am sad. I am angry. But I am sad. What are we doing? We are saying, I am. All of me, one hundred percent of me.

• 1:16:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:16:18Susan David?

  Is sad. There's no space for wisdom, values, intention, uh. Calm, like there's so much inside all of us that is beyond that difficult emotion. But when we say I am, we are literally defining ourselves with it.

• 1:16:33Lewis Howes?

  So it's not, it's not using the words I am, it's maybe something else.

• 1:16:37Susan David?

  You could say, well, well, if we say I am sad, or even I am being undermined. I am being undermined. Again, you are creating a prison. I am, this is fact. I am being undermined. All of me is being undermined. So I've got no choice but to shut down in the conversation. So one of the ways that we can start diffusing is recognizing that when we label our thoughts, emotions, and stories with an I am. And then the word.

• 1:17:05Lewis Howes?

  It's a big statement, yeah.

• 1:17:06Susan David?

  It's like, it's almost like there is a cloud. And you have become the cloud, and the cloud is the sad cloud.

• 1:17:14Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to I feel sadness.

• 1:17:16Susan David?

  Correct, correct. So, so, so the, the power here is exactly that. It's starting to.

• 1:17:22Lewis Howes?

  How you use the language.

• 1:17:23Susan David?

  How we language, how we language matters. Words matter.

• 1:17:27Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:28Susan David?

  So what we can start doing is, it's so simple. You can do it in a meeting. You can do it in a conversation with someone else. You can just start noticing your thoughts and stories for what they are, their thoughts and stories. So instead of I am sad, I'm noticing that I'm feeling sad. I'm being undermined. I'm noticing the thought that I'm being undermined. I'm not good enough.

• 1:17:52Susan David?

  I'm noticing that this is my I'm not good enough story.

• 1:17:56Lewis Howes?

  This is coming up for me.

• 1:17:57Susan David?

  This is coming up for me. So when you start noticing your thoughts, emotions, stories for what they are, what you are actually doing in effect is you're moving from being the cloud, I am the sad cloud, into recognizing, and for everyone listening right now, you are not the cloud. You, you are the sky.

• 1:18:15Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 1:18:16Susan David?

  You know, you are not the cloud, you are the sky.

• 1:18:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:18:20Susan David?

  And, and, and.

• 1:18:22Lewis Howes?

  And there is a cloud.

• 1:18:23Susan David?

  There is a cloud.

• 1:18:24Lewis Howes?

  In the sky.

• 1:18:25Susan David?

  You are the sky.

• 1:18:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:18:26Susan David?

  You are human and messy and capacious and beautiful and, and real and, and authentic and you, enough to have all of your difficult thoughts, emotions and stories and to still be the sky.

• 1:18:45Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:46Susan David?

  To still be the you.

• 1:18:48Lewis Howes?

  That's powerful. Susan, I want to acknowledge you for your, your decades of research and work on what I think is the thing that either holds us back or propels us forward in a big way. And a lot of people are prisoners of their emotion. I feel like there's so many free people in the world who aren't in prison, but we put ourselves in an emotional prison.

• 1:19:09Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Lewis Howes?

  That holds us back from peace, joy, love, intimacy.

• 1:19:14Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Lewis Howes?

  Uh, creating the life we want.

• 1:19:17Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Lewis Howes?

  You know, and we are sickened internally, which manifests physically or in relational or in whatever, by these emotions sometimes. And so I'm so grateful for you for creating tools, strategies for people to upgrade their tools and strategies that weren't working for them. And so they can have a more harmonious life while not blocking emotions, feeling the range of them, but not being a captive and a prisoner to them. So I really acknowledge you for your consistent dedication to this.

• 1:19:49Susan David?

  Thank you. And thank you for helping us to get these words out.

• 1:19:53Lewis Howes?

  Of course, of course. Um, I, I asked you this last time. I think it was like four years ago when you were on last time. So when I asked you this question, it's um, called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day.

• 1:20:08Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Lewis Howes?

  Hypothetically, you accomplish everything you want to accomplish. You live your life the way you want to do it. But for whatever reason, you have to take all of your work with you. So all of your messages, this conversation, your book. It's for whatever ain't gone.

• 1:20:22Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:23Lewis Howes?

  It's not available anymore.

• 1:20:24Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:24Lewis Howes?

  But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. Three things you know to be true. From your life, your experiences, your wisdom. What would you say are those three truths for you?

• 1:20:34Susan David?

  I would love to capture the three truths in, in things that feel practical for people. I think one of the truths is that for every person listening, doesn't matter if you're thirty or forty or fifty, for every person listening, there is a child inside of you. There is a five-year-old. And that five-year-old is tugging at your sleeve. And that five-year-old is saying, see me, love me. Hear me, connect with me. So I think one of the truths is going to be to turn and face your five-year-old child and ask your five-year-old what it needs. Does it need spontaneity? Does it need creativity?

• 1:21:17Lewis Howes?

  Healing.

• 1:21:18Susan David?

  Yeah, one of, one of the truths, I think, is that when we hold our child inside of us with gentleness, and we also recognize that there is, however old you are now, whether it's thirty or forty or fifty, there's someone twenty years, so there's, I'm fifty, so there's a seventy-year-old me. There's also a seventy-year-old looking back and saying, see me, love me, do what's important. And so I think one of the truths is that we are not alone in the world. Even if we feel alone, we've got a child inside of us. And we've got an older version inside of us.

• 1:21:59Lewis Howes?

  That's so true.

• 1:22:00Susan David?

  And that if we walk the journey with both of those people holding our hands, we have an infinite source of grounding and wisdom. So I think that for me is

• 1:22:14Lewis Howes?

  That's so beautiful.

• 1:22:14Susan David?

  is one of the truths.

• 1:22:15Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:22:16Susan David?

  I think another truth is that there is a mythology that being compassionate towards yourself is about being weak and lazy. It's like letting yourself off the hook, it's about lying to yourself. And when we think about a little child in a restaurant running away from its parents and looking back to make sure that the parents are there, it's the knowledge that the child has, that his parents are there, that if something goes wrong, that they'll step in. It's that knowledge that actually allows the child to explore the restaurant and to learn and grow. And so I think a second truth is that self compassion is

• 1:22:59Susan David?

  doing for ourselves what we see with that child and the parents. And what I mean by that is

• 1:23:05Susan David?

  it's when you are kind to yourself, that you actually, it's when you have your own back, that you're actually more likely to take risks, to learn, to grow and be vulnerable. And so I think a truth is the truth that self compassion is the cornerstone to thriving and resilience. And then I think that the third truth is um a difficult truth, which is before my father died, it was, I was five years old and my father died ten years later when I was fifteen.

• 1:23:46Susan David?

  And when I was little, I would go into my father and my mom's bedroom. And at five years old, a lot of kids become aware of their own mortality. So they start to recognize that one day their parents won't be there. And I would find my way into my parents' bed, night after night after night after night after night, much to their like dismay. And I would cry and I would say to my dad, Daddy, promise me you'll never die.

• 1:24:15Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 1:24:16Susan David?

  And this was ten years before my dad was diagnosed with cancer, ten years. And I used to say, Daddy, promise me you'll never die. Daddy, promise me you'll never die. And my father could have done the forced false positivity, just be grateful for the time we've got together. He could have done that. But he chose not to. He could have buffered me from the truth, but he chose not to. And what he said to me is, Suzie, we all die. It's normal to be scared.

• 1:24:46Susan David?

  And there was what I understood as a truth of the way that he was guiding me through those long, dark nights, is he was saying to me that courage is not an absence of fear.

• 1:24:58Susan David?

  Courage is fear walking. Courage is about being able to hold your fear, your change, your concern, your sadness, your whatever it is in one hand, and to move forward with your values in the other. Courage is not the absence of fear. And I think for me, it was very powerful because in a world that tells us to do away with fear, in a world that says, oh, you know, even in a pandemic, look for the silver lining. Never mind we're in the shadow of illness and death. There is actually profound resilience

• 1:25:42Susan David?

  by being able to walk into the future, holding both, holding both your fear and holding your courage. Because that is what life is asking of us. Every day, life is saying, are you agile? And it's, and it's born of a correspondence with your own heart.

• 1:26:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes. Oh, Susan, I'm so grateful for you. Um, I want people to follow you. Susan david dot com, Susan david underscore P H D on Instagram. Some of the best content. I love watching your stuff and seeing all your information there. It's really helpful to understand emotions. So all your content on Instagram, I really appreciate. Also, Emotional Agility, it's incredible book. I want people to get the book. How else can we be of service to you?

• 1:26:29Susan David?

  Uh, you, you, you don't need to be of service to me. Be of service to yourself and to the world that we were trying to create. Um, but if you want to connect a little bit more with my work beyond um, social media and uh, the book Emotional Agility, my TED Talk is called The Gift and Power of Emotional Courage.

• 1:26:50Lewis Howes?

  We'll link that too, yeah.

• 1:26:51Susan David?

  And then last, something that a lot of people find really helpful, because it's just really practical, is I've got a quiz that a few hundred thousand people have taken. And it's Susan david dot com forward slash learn. And there's a free 10 page report.

• 1:27:06Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:27:07Susan David?

  That comes from it. And a lot of people just, because it really connects with emotional agility and values and, and is very helpful.

• 1:27:14Lewis Howes?

  Perfect. Susan david dot com slash learn.

• 1:27:17Susan David?

  Learn.

• 1:27:18Lewis Howes?

  Take the quiz, get the book, follow you on social media, watch the TED Talk, we'll link it all up. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:27:26Susan David?

  My definition of greatness is being gentle. Being gentle, being gentle with yourself, being gentle with others.

• 1:27:41Susan David?

  Moving away from tightness into like just softening into the world. I think such beautiful things and great things happen from gentleness.

• 1:27:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's beautiful. Susan, thank you.

• 1:27:51Susan David?

  Thank you.

• 1:27:51Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.