#1431 Dylan LeClair | Michael Saylor's Bitcoin Bet Will Make Him Billions?!

Dylan LeClair is the Director of Bitcoin Strategy at Metaplanet & Market Intelligence at UTXO Management. In this conversation, we discuss bitcoin being put on the balance sheet of publicly traded companies, why it has created the best performing stocks in the entire world, what it means for all the individual businesses, and where he sees these companies going moving forward. ======================= The future is being built today and the future of currency isn’t dollars, euros, pounds, or yen, it’s crypto. And Gemini thinks that’s a great thing. Because a future where money is decentralized, inclusive, and globally accessible, that’s a future that we are anxious to be a part of. Go where dollars won’t. With Gemini. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's going on guys? Today we have Dylan Leclerc. He is one of my favorite voices in the Bitcoin community and he does not hold back. Dylan unpacks the great world of the corporate treasury strategy, putting Bitcoin on the balance sheets of publicly traded companies, why it has created the best performing stocks in the entire world,

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

  and what it means for all these individual businesses. There's different flavors of it, there's different strategies, but Dylan unpacks exactly what these people are doing, how it works, why it's creating value, and where he sees these businesses going over the next 10 to 20 years. There's MicroStrategy, there's Semer Scientific, there's Metaplanet, and many, many others. These businesses are pioneering corporate finance and the results speak for themselves. Dylan Leclerc is here to explain it all, so I hope you enjoy my latest conversation with him.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Gemini. The future is being built today and the future of currency isn't dollars, euros, pounds, or yen. It's crypto. And Gemini thinks that's a great thing, because a future where money is decentralized, inclusive, and globally accessible, that's a future that we are anxious to be a part of. Gemini teamed up with futurists, technologists, and designers, like award-winning artist Matt Griffin, known for his illustrations for Dune, to craft a vision of the future with crypto at its core. The creative theme, "Go Where Dollars Won't," emphasizes Growth and the crypto market's limitless potential. Whether it's going on that Martian safari to capture an unforgettable photo of a herd of woolly mammoths grazing the red planet,

• 2:19Anthony Pompliano?

  or using Bitcoin to pay for your lift pass to go strata skiing down the mountain peak of a breathtaking comet. Whatever adventures we'll be living, one thing is for sure. In a future this fantastic, the limits of traditional currencies simply cannot keep up. Financial innovation will usher in this new frontier, and so go where dollars won't with Gemini. Go check them out at Gemini.com/go wheredollarswon't. Again, go check it out at Gemini.com/go wheredollarswon't.

• 2:51Anthony Pompliano?

  So Dylan, I thought the best place to start this conversation is micro strategy is obviously executing a somewhat novel and new corporate finance playbook. You're very involved with Meta Planet, which is also doing the same thing in Japan. There's a couple of other countries around the world that are now realizing putting Bitcoin on their balance sheet could be this unlock in the public markets. Help me understand, what is the corporate treasury strategy for Bitcoin in these businesses?

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, where to begin? I think, you know, we, I'm sure many, many of the listeners here are familiar with the story. And I mean, I actually, you know, quite vividly remember, I think, I think you were the second one, not, not to, to say that, but Sailor came on to your podcast quite early, I think it was Peter's and then yours, and basically laid out, you know, the, the realization, the aha moment back in August of 2020.

• 3:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Dylan, I was, Dylan, I was first, don't worry.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, okay. Fair enough. But, you know, back, even back then, I think the, the playbook, as you would, you know, articulate it today was, was quite different, right? This was, it was a defensive move against COVID, this cash on the balance sheet. We're going to put it into Bitcoin. It's fastest horse. It's digital gold. I think that those things still apply. But the playbook as it is now, as Saylor and the MicroStrategy Treasury Team, of which, you know, they rebranded yesterday. There's a few iterations of, well, what is MicroStrategy? What is, what are you, what is your business?

• 4:23Speaker 02

  And Bitcoin, Bitcoin Treasury Company, BTC, is, I like, it's a novel name. It's a novel label. And I think, you know, that the, the strategy of a Bitcoin Treasury Company is, is, you know, much more, much more advanced and much more of a well-oiled machine than it was, the, the idea was four years ago of like, let's just, let's just buy, buy this thing and see how it plays out. Because, you know, I think back then, no one, even, even Saylor and co. Admit this, that they didn't, they didn't really fully understand the opportunity that they were, you know, walking into. And so, you know, just two days ago, Pomp and, you know, I'm sure you, you saw, everybody did, you know, MicroStrategy announced the, the biggest

• 5:08Speaker 02

  at-the-money equity facility in the history of capital markets to buy Bitcoin. You know, said with convertible notes and equity issuance through the ATM, they're gonna, it's basically, you know, they're gonna dilute, you know, over the next three years, they plan to dilute the shares outstanding by, you know, 80% or so. And so, you know, in a traditional financial context, the shares would crater at 9:30 open.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  I mean, that's just, that's, you know, if, if Costco or AT&T or, or, you know, any of these kind of legacy companies in S and P 500 or the Dow, like, you know, pick one out of the hat, did this, you know, shareholders would, would, you know, protest. They would, they would sell the stock in a, in a rage. But MicroStrategy's shares, you know, finished slightly around on the day, but outperformed Bitcoin, right? And they're, and they have, they have a leveraged Bitcoin balance sheet. So I think the point is that, that there, there's a novel concept that, that they, you know, Saylor, the Bitcoin strategy, kind of, you know, how they've stumbled into the last four years, which is the notion that incremental dilution, as you call it, and I, I

• 6:18Speaker 02

  have, I almost hesitate now to say dilution, because it's not, not even dilutive, it's accretive, to acquire more Bitcoin. And this this not this this concept of BTC yield, which some people have have said, you know, they don't like the frame, the the phrasing of the terms because of, you know, kind of the history of of yield in in these crypto markets. Uh, but their their new KPI, MicroStrategy's KPI, which I think they the bigger vision is, is this is, you know, 20 years from now, a widely adopted metric, maybe an official accounting metric in the corporate, uh, Treasury world and the world of finance is, you know, it what's your what's your BTC per share, per fully diluted share, worst case scenario, every convert employee, stock option, executive comp, all that's baked in.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  What's your Bitcoin per fully diluted share? Is that is that increasing or not? Right? And in a Bitcoin centric framework, that's what shareholders care about. And so year over year, MicroStrategy is up, you know, 17% BTC yield. Their Bitcoin per fully diluted share is 17%. So when you think of like equity markets, right? The the the crazy thing to think about is like you have to discount growth into the future. Nvidia is trading at 40x, you know, price to earnings or or whatever the whatever the current PE ratio is now. Apple's trading at at 25x, 30x. Amazon's trading at 30x their their price to earnings. So when MicroStrategy is saying all all we want is more Bitcoin, all our shareholders want is more Bitcoin, and our Bitcoin per share is up 20% this year. You have to discount that, right?

• 7:47Speaker 02

  And so there's this really, there's this really interesting thing going on where all the Bitcoiners are are cheering the dilution on. And all the TradFi people on the sideline are saying, you know, these Bitcoin people are idiots. And and, you know, I that MicroStrategy has gone from a $1 billion company to a $50 billion company in in four years. So I think this is, you know, remarkably so. This is still early days, um, for the for the playbook. And, um, you know, the Bitcoin strategy as we know it is the radical notion that that, you know, equity financing and debt financing structured in an intelligent way, um, isn't isn't a bad thing.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  And it's almost flipped the entire corporate Treasury world, you know, debt finance, buybacks, hold no cash, hold no capital. Strip it all away, return it to shareholders. It's turned that on its head. And the remarkable thing is like, no one, no one has realized it yet, except, you know, basically one or, one or two companies. You know, even, even the Bitcoin companies, the crypto companies like the Coinbase of the world. Coinbase just announced a billion dollar buyback two days ago. Right? So there's a lot to dig into, but I, I still think it's crazy enough. It's still early in the recognition that, that, you know, this is a big, big, big shift and Bitcoin is bringing a shift, right?

• 9:07Speaker 02

  So there's a lot to cover that we can kind of dig into all those details, but I always kind of say that's, that's the overview of, of what we're looking at.

• 9:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's talk about this Bitcoin yield being kind of a benchmark. So the idea is if I own one share, there's a certain amount of Bitcoin that I basically have claimed to on the balance sheet. And even though there are more shares being issued, which usually meant, means that my value of my share should be going down. Instead here, because it is buying more Bitcoin for the balance sheet, the amount of Bitcoin that I have a claim to is actually going up. And that's kind of this idea of this Bitcoin yield. What are the ramifications of this? Does it change the way that people think about investing in micro strategy? Or is this more of something that from a corporate finance standpoint drives the return of, you know, the value of the business and shareholders?

• 9:57Anthony Pompliano?

  And so it's purely about optimizing kind of capital appreciation?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, so let's remove micro strategy out of it and let's just say we're, we're in a hyper Bitcoinized world. And, um, you know, you, you, you know, you're looking at a publicly traded laundromat, right? And like this company has a bunch of laundromats all over Manhattan and then wherever else. And, and all they do is they, is they have the facilities and they own them and they own the machines or maybe they lease them, who knows? But every single quarter, this company spits out cash, right? And what do they do with the cash? Do they hold it? Do they, but well, there's, there's, they already have the, the saturated, the, the laundromat market. What do they do? Well, one of the things they could do is buy Bitcoin, right? And so no shares outstanding, no debt, just a plain old vanilla laundromat business. Let's just say it's public market, so they're reporting all this stuff, right?

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Quarter over quarter, their cash flow is positive. Their cash is going up. They take that cash, they sweep it in to buy Bitcoin. There's a positive Bitcoin BTC yield quarter over quarter. There's a positive, there's a, the rate of change of Bitcoin per fully diluted share is going up. Right? And so for a Bitcoin denominated investor, for an investor that's saying Bitcoin is my unit of account, it's my store of value, this is how I want to measure value in this, in this world, even though maybe there's a little bit of more volatility, even say 10, 20 years out than the dollar, right? Which is fine. Then, then that, that is positive BTC yield. I think what's, what's Saylor and MicroStrategy and kind of the early, the early companies in this sort of phase transition are realizing is,

• 11:31Speaker 02

  and this is something that, you know, some, like someone like myself, you know, coming from the world of just like, oh, I can, you know, me or you or whoever else, we log on to Coinbase or Cash App, you send money, you buy Bitcoin in 10 minutes, you can send it to cold storage. Doesn't matter, like, you know, it's, it's easy as one, two, three. Like getting, getting orange pilled and understanding Bitcoin, yeah, that's the step. But like, once it comes down, down to it, it's pretty easy to buy Bitcoin. If you're a pension or a, a corporate, you know, if, if you have a mandate to own corporate bonds or you are a long only small cap equities fund, or, and I'm just naming, you know, kind of ideas,

• 12:10Speaker 02

  but the point is there's trillions of dollars of capital that, that can't access, they, they can't even buy the Bitcoin ETF. They can't even buy IBIT, you know, the most best performing ETF ever. There's a lot of, there's a lot of funds that can't even buy MicroStrategy, right? But what can you buy? Well, you can, you know, some of these funds. They can allocate $400 million to corporate convertible notes or junk debt. Right. And so the earnings call yesterday, two days ago, I highly recommend everybody go check it out. With MicroStrategy was amazing and the slide deck they went through was, was the, it was just one of the best earnings presentations I had ever seen.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  There was the craziest stat that the corporate convertible notes issued by MicroStrategy, right? The, you know, they, this is an unsecured convertible note. You know, right now they have $18 billion of Bitcoin. They have $4 billion of debt. So, you know, four to one, almost five to one over collateralized currently in terms of the, you know, debts to the assets on the balance sheet. Not including the software business. You know, that's essentially, right? Those bonds have outperformed Bitcoin. They've, they've issued six of them. If you take the blended return of those and the blended return of where Bitcoin, the price of Bitcoin and the price of Bitcoin today. They outperformed Bitcoin, but they also have an embedded put option where they're a bond, right?

• 13:35Speaker 02

  So, so if you, if you're a bondholder and six years later Bitcoin's gone nowhere, you know, they have to pay you back, right? And so that's, that's pretty crazy. And, and, and they've said like, you know, we don't necessarily expect these bonds or, or not to outperform Bitcoin into the future. But the point is MicroStrategy is levered BTC. They're outperforming Bitcoin on the upside and they're accruing more Bitcoin per share. These convertible notes, you know, say at a 40% conversion premium, the stock's at a thousand. At 1400, you're a bondholder, you have access, you know, your, your bond converts into shares of the most volatile stock on the market and the best performing stock on the market. That's levered BTC, right?

• 14:15Speaker 02

  So the, the real novel, you know, the, the low level conversation is, well, here's the NAV. Here's the net asset value and here's the premium. And they're playing this arb and it's fleeting and we'll, we'll see how long it lasts. Like that's the normie take of like, this is GameStop, it's irrational, exuberance, it's coming to an end. The real, you know, the big brain take is that. You know, this, this is the first early phases of like the Bitcoinization of the legacy securities market. Bitcoin ETFs were kind of a line in the sand for the institutional adoption. We've, you know, the, the, you know, the green light has gone on, the race has started, you know, the starting gun has gone off. Bitcoin ETFs are the best performing ETFs of all time in terms of inflows.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  And so there's now, there's not the career risk there was on this. And so, you know, equity securities that are, you know, quote unquote backed by Bitcoin, not, not in the sense of a mutual fund, not in the sense of an ETF. Cause an ETF can't issue a convertible, no. An ETF can't, you know, can't sweep excess cash flows. They don't have excess cash flows, it's overnight deposits. But if you're a public operating company, you have a lot of flexibility. And so I think the point is that, that valuing things as they has MicroStrategy pioneered in a BTC denominated framework, that all Bitcoin maximalists and everybody that's, you know, thinking in this new world, um, you know, is, is benchmarked to. And they, and they want, they want more Bitcoin, they want more Bitcoin returns and they want leveraged Bitcoin exposure.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Right? And so I think that, you know, the, the issuing equity, issuing debt to buy more, to buy more Bitcoin in a way where, you know, they're borrowing money for five years at, at 1%, at 0%, at 2% interest. Right? And, and the point is that they're, they're not even really paying that debt down because it's just converting into new shares of common stock. Right? So, so Bitcoin per fully diluted shares going up, the solvency ratios are going up as they continue to dilute their shares and the shareholders cheer for it. Um, and so, you know, the, the point they made on the earnings call was, you know, everybody's having this debate online. Well, it's here's the premium, here's an add asset value and it's irrational. It's not irrational, we're, we're a growth company, we're a tech company.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  How do you, how do you value a company that's gone from 1 billion to 50 billion in four years? You know, in Q1, when FASB was adopted, they're going to have a $10 billion earnings print. It's like, it's like the biggest rate of, the biggest, you know, quarter over quarter change in earnings in the history of capital markets. So like, the real crazy take is, when you think about FASB adoption and this Bitcoin treasury strategy, you have essentially kind of like a merging of the PE multiple world and this, and this, you know, new corporate Bitcoin treasury strategy world, right? Where the debate around MNA, market cap to net asset value and all this stuff sort of merges with the world of PE ratios, right? If MSTR, what, think about if Bitcoin goes to whatever you think it does in 2025?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Do you know the earnings per share that MicroStrategy is going to record in that scenario? Do you know that equity market investors and, and, you know, all these passive, you know, these passive flows are going to value that at a multiple of the current earnings? And so, this is entirely unprecedented. This is like, you know, the MicroStrategy team is writing the history books right now. And so, we don't know what comes next. But I think, you know, based on the last four years, you know, past results don't, don't equal future performance. But it's clear there's an insatiable amount of demand for these Bitcoin-backed securities, equity securities and debt securities. And no one in the world can offer what they are offering. You can't, a hedge fund can't offer it, a bank can't offer it, a public operating company

• 17:59Speaker 02

  that's 130% exposed to Bitcoin on their balance sheet can, right? So it's super unique, it's really not understood even by like, very, very smart, respected, you know, finance pros. So I think there's, there's still a ton of opportunity and remarkably, it's still like, you know, only like the third inning here.

• 18:18Anthony Pompliano?

  You're involved with MetaPlanet, which is a Japan-based company that is pursuing something very similar, but what's unique is that Japan's borrowing environment is, is a little bit different than in the United States. Describe maybe the parts of the MicroStrategy story that can be replicated by other companies like MetaPlanet, Semer Scientific, etc. And then also, what are some of the ways that people can take this kind of corporate finance strategy and maybe add their own flavor, like as you guys are doing in Japan, according to the environment, the geography, or maybe the business strategy?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, we, you know, Metaplanet is no doubt, and we don't shy from it, was inspired by the MicroStrategy story. I joined the company in May, about a few weeks after the Bitcoin standard was announced, and kind of the implementation details were still being figured out. I think, you know, the point is, there's going to be a lot of different flavors of this, right? There's going to be, you can think of the spectrum of like, there's no Bitcoin, and then, you know, MSTR is 130% levered BTC, and they've, you know, and they're diluting as fast as they can, and they're issuing all these debt instruments in the traditional sense, which is risky, right? But there's a spectrum. It's not binary. It's not zero or MSTR. You know, someone like a Square or Block is, you know,

• 19:39Speaker 02

  just is taking like X percent of their profits, 5% and just DCing into Bitcoin, right? So every quarter, they're going to announce a little bit more Bitcoin, but I don't think they have the buying from shareholders to triple their shares outstanding to buy Bitcoin. For someone like Metaplanet, right? Metaplanet was a legacy budget hotel company that got basically, you know, completely wiped out during COVID, restructured the entire balance sheet, and was essentially, you know, and don't shy away from this, like a zombie in 2023 and 24. And so the point is, you know, Japan offered a really unique opportunity where there's no Bitcoin exposure anywhere in the equity markets. There's no miners,

• 20:19Speaker 02

  there's no Coinbase or MicroStrategy, there's no ETFs, and the tax rate on crypto right now in Japan is like the highest in the world. It's treated as miscellaneous income, so it's up to like 55%, but listed securities are 20%. So there was, never mind the interest rate and the currency story, and the debt to GDP. So there's like a bunch of stars that align that made this a really unique, interesting opportunity. And so, you know, so far, Metaplanet has gone from, you know, 11 million shares outstanding to 36 million in six months, right? And, you know, right now, we have, Metaplanet has five times the amount of Bitcoin on its balance sheet with no debt, as the market cap was six months ago. So the point is, you know, this

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Scale, the scale is obviously like multiple orders of magnitude smaller than like say a micro strategy to start. But the playbook and the story is similar and we openly state that, right? Like MicroStrategy adopted BTC yield as a KPI, a key performance indicator. We're not trying to reinvent the wheel, right? So we said early on in April, we said, you know, we want to increase our BTC per share. But you know, when you read MicroStrategy's disclosures, they're saying, here's our fully diluted shares outstanding. Here's what they are. Here's our converts. You know, it's like overly transparent, right? And so we're like, you know, I think we're going to do that same thing.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  And we've, you know, MicroStrategy openly is saying, we want, we don't want to, we're not gatekeeping this. We want this to be the standard. We want our transparency and we want our, you know, our KPI, this BTC yield to be the standard. And so we adopted that and now our, you know, our, our measure of whether we're doing, you know, a good job for our, for our shareholders, for our partners is whether our total Bitcoin per fully diluted share is going up. And if it's not, then we're not doing our job, right? And so I think that, you know, this is still super, super early days. But, you know, I would imagine, right, we, you know, pump, we've had 20 conversations, just me and you. You've had 400, 500 podcasts on Bitcoin alone.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  You, we think both of us all the time on, on what this world looks like on the other side of like this Bitcoin event horizon, right? And I think what's, what was a little fuzzy, but is now coming more into focus is like, okay, if we, if we go to the furthest extreme of what this Bitcoinized world looks like, right? And Bitcoin is like the benchmark for value, then what is the, what is the, you know, a measure of performance or, or excellence look like in, in that world for finance, right? And I think what it, what it's clear what it looks like is, well, per share on a, you know, on a relative basis, is your Bitcoin holdings going up or down, right? Because you can, you can increase aggregate Bitcoin holdings while diluting your shareholders, right?

• 23:15Speaker 02

  But Bitcoin per share is going down, right? So like, you know, a lot, a lot of the miners have a lot of Bitcoin, right? But mining is a really tough business and, you know, there's many things in Asics depreciate. So a lot of these miners have way more Bitcoin than they had four years ago, the public miners. But their Bitcoin per fully diluted share has gone down. Right, and I understand, you know, they're building sites and they're doing much more than just buying Bitcoin, right? But the point is that that, you know, that's kind of the true cut through the noise benchmark of what success looks like, or at least to some, right? And so for us, we've tried to, we've, you know, openly stated that we are inspired by MicroStrategy and looking to implement that as well. And I think, you know, that's, if I had to guess, I would, you know, say that there's

• 24:00Speaker 02

  going to be five and then 10 and then 20 and then 100 companies that are, you know, using this as a benchmark for performance. But for a variety of reasons, you know, BTC yield as a benchmark, right? It's sort of, it sort of pigeonholes you into, into one thing, right? Because if you're using BTC yield as a benchmark and then all of a sudden you want to go make an acquisition, right? Or if you, you know, you are a tech company and you want to go buy out to startup or, well, all of a sudden, if you use shares to do that, your BTC per share goes down, right? So if your shareholders only want one thing and they only want Bitcoin, right? That, that, you know, introduces an interesting element. So there's pros and there's cons, but I think for us, this is, you know, this is the story and, you know, that's our, that's our one goal.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  We want to be, we want to hold as much Bitcoin as possible. And I think, you know, the interesting thing is that for the first time, not for the first time, but in a way that wasn't as clear and transparent and quantifiable as it is today, dilution can be nearly instantly accretive, right? You can dilute your shareholders and almost near instantly, your, your, you know, per share value increment the ratchets upward. And it's just a new dynamic, right? I mean, if you're a real estate public company or whatever and you dilute shareholders to make an acquisition or to, you know, to invest in a new property, it takes a few years to figure out whether that was a good acquisition or if the real estate portfolio is, you know, giving you a positive ROI. You may never know.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  With Bitcoin, you know, you know, in three days, right? So like the the investment cycle, if you will, is a lot faster. So yeah, there's a lot of interesting elements and things to pick at. But I think, you know, the moral of the story is that this is a one way train in terms of Bitcoin adoption, in terms of more companies adopting it. But I want, I don't think you should expect every, there to be a, you know, 2,000 MicroStrategy copycats exactly as they are. You know, there's going to be 10, there's going to be a lot of them. But I think a lot more companies, maybe a big tech company, maybe Microsoft, they're gonna, I mean, Microsoft could buy $10 billion of Bitcoin and it's irrelevant to their balance sheet. Right? And like, that's a lot of money. But relative to their $3 trillion market cap, they're not a Bitcoin proxy. Right?

• 26:17Speaker 02

  So that's where Sailor, that's where MicroStrategy's story is unique. I think for us, that's where we're unique, where we're not focusing on anything else. But for an established corporate conglomerate, right? That's not gonna, you're not gonna go all in, right? Relatively, it's gonna be quite small, even if your absolute position size is big. So I think it comes in all flavors, all shapes and sizes. But, you know, it's a one way, you know, street for adoption.

• 26:41Anthony Pompliano?

  MicroStrategy has announced a $42 billion kind of capital raise. It's both equity and debt. Part of that equity raise is the largest ATM in history. For those that don't know, ATM is like an at the market offering where you basically are selling shares into the market to raise capital from the business. They can do so when they choose to do it, once the ATM has been approved and they can choose to do it on, you know, good days, bad days, anywhere in between. What is the significance of this ATM that MicroStrategy has announced? And do you think that more and more companies will realize that these ATMs, which the Bitcoin miners have been using pretty aggressively to fund growth, is the path and the kind of lowest hanging fruit to be able to raise capital and then go buy Bitcoin for themselves?

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for a lot of these companies, the first entrance, right? Like, if you think about a company that, you know, whatever, you could choose any company in the world, if they just instantly just kind of jumped on, you know, the next earnings call, or they release an 8K, and they said, "Hey, we're diluting shares by 10% to buy Bitcoin, and, you know, here's your first time hearing about it." It wouldn't go over well, right? Especially if you're a big corporate, like, you just can't do that. You can't just spring that upon your shareholders. You know, it's kind of a process of like, "Hey, should we do this? Okay, here, we're gonna take a, we're gonna take 1% stake, a 5% stake. That 5% stake grows to 10. Hey, maybe we should buy more. Hey, maybe we should increase Bitcoin per share. How do we do that? Well, we could issue new shares. Look at what this company did, right?

• 28:08Speaker 02

  They've done it, they've done it eight separate times. So I think that's kind of how it'll look. But yeah, like, right, if you think about the, you know, because of the interest rate environment, because of, even during, from like, say, 2000 to 2020, before, you know, the inflation wave that hit after COVID, there was, there was still a prolonged period of negative real interest rates, you know? The interest rates were zero, and, you know, the inflation rate was, say, 2%, 3% in CPI terms, you know, the real hurdle rate in, say, like, the S and P 500, if you're measuring that, or Bitcoin was a lot higher, but let, maybe you could, you could say M2, but let's just use CPI, right? Like, you have a negative

• 28:49Speaker 02

  2%, 3% real interest rate in that world. So why would a corporation ever hold cash? And the fact of the matter is, the smart ones didn't, right? The smart ones are borrowing as much money as they can, long-dated, and they're buying back their stock, right? Like, the, you know, post-Steve Jobs, like, Apple's biggest innovation is the iBuyBack. And that's, and that's fine. I think the important thing to recognize is that, you know, it's just a matter of incentives. They're not doing anything wrong. It's, you know, it's what most, anybody else would do in their shoes, right? Like, that's how you return value tax efficiently to shareholders in this world, right? Because, like, with a dividend, you know, both sides are getting taxed. With a buyback, you know, it's just, it's just, you know, kind of increasing

• 29:32Speaker 02

  the valuation of your shares. It's not a taxable event directly until you sell. And so that world, right, it's like you're decapitalizing your balance sheet. You're getting rid of capital as fast as you can because capital, you're the cash asset's a liability. Which is like, you know, it's like, how's a cash a liability? Well, it is in a world where it decreases in real terms every single year. It's a liability. So Bitcoin, you know, the, the idea that, that Bitcoin capital again can be an asset. And that volatility itself is an asset. Right, which is like, wait, what? Say that again. And the, and the, the real crazy thing, and, and MicroStrategy just stumbled into this. Was, you know, they bought a bunch of Bitcoin and the Bitcoin went up and the Bitcoin became a bigger and bigger percent of their market cap.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, you know, MicroStrategy's like realized volatility had doubled. Right, so, so, and, and for the CFO, right, like the most, you don't want balance sheet volatility. You don't want stock volatility. These things are scary and you should avoid them. Right, Wall Street, why would you ever buy Bitcoin? It's volatile, it's way too risky, stay away. But the, the real crazy thing, you know, the egg that was cracked with, with MicroStrategy is that

• 30:44Speaker 02

  this volatility is an asset that's being leveraged. So, so, you know, MicroStrategy is, you know, as volatile are now twice as volatile as Bitcoin. Well, because of this, they can borrow for basically, you know, free for four, five, six years. Because, how? How do they do that? Well, you know, if I, if I, if you pull up the, you know, options on, on E-Trade or Robinhood or Interactive Brokers or Schwab or whatever brokerage you use. And you just look at, you know, Tesla stock and you go to the furthest out and you want to buy a call option, not for, for out of the money, just for today's price. You want to buy Tesla for today's price, five years from now. Well, like that's, that option costs a lot of, costs a lot of money. Even buying it, say, you have to pay a, a pretty fat premium

• 31:29Speaker 02

  to buy it 50% higher than the price is today, five years from now. Well, why? Because that optionality is really worth, is really valuable if the stock, you know, doubles or triples, right? And the more volatile a stock, the more uncertainty there is. The more you have to pay, the fatter that premium is, right? And so volatility in the world of options is, is value. And so a convertible note is just a debt instrument and a, and a basically a call option on a company wrapped into one instrument. And so, so this, you know, this, this option, this MicroStrategy common stock option is the hottest, is the hottest thing in debt markets. Right? Because, you know, traditionally, you know, a convertible note on Berkshire Hathaway

• 32:14Speaker 02

  or a convertible note on, you know, just like a stock that barely trades isn't, there's almost no value there. I guess it depends where the, the conversion price is, right? But MicroStrategy saying, hey, 40% out of the money, five years, right? Well, that, you know, plug that, those values into a black controls model. You know, it's basically a fair value of kind of the expected distribution and kind of a bunch of mathy stuff. But the point is that the volatility is valuable to them. And so they've, they've leaned into it and they said, okay, we want, we want more volatility, more returns. We're going to manage this in a way where we're not going to be forced to sell. Right? I think they learned lessons, MicroStrategy learned lessons in 21 and 22 on, you know, the size of their, their, their debt versus their assets, you know, kind of fine tuning

• 32:58Speaker 02

  this to the point where they can, Bitcoin's going to draw down by what? 50, 60% at some point, 70%? We, you know, you bet through a few cycles, right? Like we, we, we know that at the point where we think this is hyper Bitcoinization and know it'll never go down again, you know, we'll get, we'll get a nice 50, 60% pullback. And so the point is that they're, they're structuring it out where the liabilities, they're not going to be forced to sell. Uh, they, this, you know, this ATM, this $21 billion ATM, they're going to be in the market every single day. And the, and the point is like MicroStrategy's volume has gone from, I actually don't know what it was pre, um, pre Bitcoin, but right now it's about $5 billion a day. Right? And so that's, that's the same as the, you know, the magnificent seven.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  That's the same as Nvidia or Tesla or Meta or Amazon. Right? But those are, those are trillion dollar companies. MicroStrategy's 50 billion. Right? So like the, the micro strategy options are the hottest, the, the, the most, you know, the, the biggest options chain in the US markets. So the point is that they can, they can dilute because of the volume, because of the volatility, because of the uncertainty, because of the traders and speculators and arbitragers. Their financing options for, you know, today compared to four years ago is, is otherworldly. You know, the options chain in micro strategy in 2020 was three million and now it's, it's like 25 billion, right? So, so like that's, it's just the, the volatility and, uh, you know, that uncertainty.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Paradoxically opens up a lot of doors. And so when, you know, particularly for leaning into this Bitcoin strategy, um, in a way that, you know, it really isn't comparable to anybody else at this phase. Um, you know, they, they have figured out almost an engineering feat, right? In financial markets that, that has never been seen before. And so that is basically completely opposite, completely inverse to the, the current meta, right? The current corporate finance meta of get rid of capital, no volatility, buy back your stock, right? Like they, they want the opposite. They want high volatility. They want more capital and, and, and they want, you know, higher performance because of it.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  So I think, you know, that, that world is, uh, it's a new idea. It's a radical idea. And I think it's one that makes a lot of the, you know, if you would never read that in an efficient market hypothesis textbook, right? You would never learn this in a Harvard MBA, right? So a lot of the people in the, you know, the, the C suites, right? Like you're a C suite executive, you're a CFO at a public company. You like, you're, you have a four-year term, you're, you have vested stock options, like you just don't want to rock the boat. Right? There's no incentive, like Sailor, he's like founder, he's got over 50% of the voting shares, like we're doing this. Right? But for others, you know, the, you, who owns your shares?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Well, Fidelity and BlackRock and Vanguard and State Street and, and, you know, four other pensions and, you know, we each, we each own 1% of the share. So like. We're not going to do a Bitcoin standard because we don't want to blow this up. But I think that's changing, right? The career risk has really been diminished. I wouldn't say it's fully wiped out yet in the minds of everybody, but I mean, the results speak for itself. Microstrategies have performed every company in the S and P 500 by a long shot.

• 36:13Anthony Pompliano?

  You mentioned, you mentioned something that I think is worth elaborating on, which is the US dollar is actually a liability. And this is something that may be popular and known in the Bitcoin community, but I think most people in finance, most entrepreneurs, they don't see that. They don't understand what that means. Can you explain?

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I, you know, I think if you can look in the past, you can look at the last four years or 10 years. But I think really, you know, the, especially the savvy investors, the Paul Tudor Jones, the Druckenmillers, you know, they're, they're saying that these macro guys, they're looking at the debt to GDP in the US and every G7 nation. And they're saying, there's no way fixed income, bonds, even short duration treasuries, debt instruments have a positive ROI because, you know, because functionally like these, these countries, these sovereigns are insolvent. So, so like traditionally, there's, you know, there's two ways to go about this on a gold standard. They, you know, confiscate the gold or revalue the gold higher. It diminishes the real value of the debts on a debt based system.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  You know, the only option is to basically, you know, print your way out. The only option is to inflate your way out, which means by definition, just, you know, simple arithmetic, the, the, the year over year percentage change in inflation has to be higher than the interest rate. Right? So that's the way to devalue the real value of the debt is, is financial repression, inflation above interest rates. So in that world, okay, great. Your treasury earns 4%, right? But Your treasury earning 4% while inflation is 6 means you're losing value in real terms. So like the this entire finance world is baked around, you know, forward projections and multiples. And, and, you know, you're saying, okay, well, the company makes this amount of cash or this amount of earnings

• 38:02Speaker 02

  or cash flow this year, so we're going to value it, you know, on our 10 year projection. And I think, you know, basically because of the, the, there's a lot of second order effects, but because of this, this mass monetary experiment, because of this fiat currency induced, you know, malaise almost, the, the investing world is no longer, I mean, there's, there's many that are doing this, but, but the, the vast majority of investment capital, they're not going in and they're not putting up an Excel sheet and saying, well, okay, so here's the debt and the liabilities and here's the cash flow and here's, you know, all the things to look at and here's our model and how to value this and the stock's worth this. No, no, like the average person, the average retiree, the average, you know,

• 38:47Speaker 02

  corporate worker is plowing money 52 weeks a year into a basket of 500 companies or a basket of every company in the US at any price, right? And disproportionately it goes to the biggest companies, but like passive, the passive, you know, zomification of, of investing flows, right? That's, that's came as a result of ETFs, right? I, I think that, that it's not a bad thing in a vacuum, but the, the reason that this has happened is because the, the original instrument that's to be used for savings, money, no longer can, can function as a store of value, right? In a, in a hypothetical world where the dollar, you know, your unit of currency,

• 39:29Speaker 02

  whatever it is, doesn't programmatically, you know, it's not politically programmed to lose value every year. In that world, investing as we know it becomes much more of an, of an active game. You have to pick winners and losers, right? It's a stock picker's market, right? The last, the last 20 years or let's just say, you know, 10, 20 years, it's not a stock picker's market. It's a momentum market, right? The people that have won are the people that are chasing beta, they're chasing tech, right? They've outperformed, they've outperformed, you know, the active managers, the value fund guys. And I think the, the value investors, you know, the, the reason they're underperforming, the value guys is not because they're dumb. They're not. They're really smart. You know, these guys are Warren Buffett disciples and they're getting performed every year by, by teenagers

• 40:14Speaker 02

  punting QQQ. Right? Well, why? Well, it's not because they're dumb. Again, it's because the thing that the denominator that they're using for all this calculus, there's an error term baked in that. There's an error. The error is the value of the currency is going down. Right? So, so in a world where the money is, you know, debasing at maybe an increasing rate, well, slap whatever multiple you want on all these tech companies. It doesn't matter. They'll grow into it, you know? Like that's, and that's the world we're in, right? And a lot of people don't recognize that. And so whether that continues or not, you know, that's a, that's a topic for debate. I think it does. I think we have to debate to get out of this. You know, we had a, we had a biggest inflation shock in 50 years. We were talking about it all of 21 and 22.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  The debt to GDP ratios didn't go down. Right? The, the point was in 2020, the Fed shares and everyone else was, was clamoring for high inflation. We need inflation higher. We need to shock markets. We, we want, you know, just to let it run hot. That's what they were saying, right? They did. They definitely let it run hot. Inflation wasn't transitory, no matter how many times they said it. The cost of goods now is, you know, the base effect, it's 30% higher. Everything's 30% more expensive, you know, depending on average. But the debt to GDP didn't go down. It's flat. It may be ticked up in places. So the point is that the debasement is still guaranteed to come. So, so, you know, in the world of investing, whether you're just a stock, you know, a stock picker or, you know, investing in a Robin Hood brokerage,

• 41:43Speaker 02

  or you're, you're a CFO, or you're a value fund CIO, right? Like the, the, the implicit assumption is that, that you make in all of this financial analysis is that, you know, the, the ruler is accurate. And the ruler's the dollar. The ruler's a dollar on a one-year, five-year, 10-year, 30-year, you know, expected, expected value. But that, in the world where that's broken, in a world where, you know, 10 years to now, the, the money's going to debase by, by, you know, it's going to debase by 50% more than the value you're going to get on, on the interest rates and cash. How do you, how do you measure things? I think the Bitcoiners are saying, you know, the crazy radical Bitcoiners are saying, well, guys, you're using the wrong unit, right?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  It's not clear to everybody that Bitcoin's the unit to measure because it's too volatile, there's too much noise, you know, it's too small. But increasingly, right? There's now one or two companies, there's now a small country, there's now a few kind of radical people that are saying, well, guys, we've been telling you that this is the new benchmark BTC. But, you know, look around. And so I don't think we're there yet in the sense that everybody's going to finally say, okay, well, we get it, the money's broken. But this game can only go on for so long. I know it's politically polarizing, it's the orange man, it's the blue team, it's red team, the reality is it's structural.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  And so, you know, in that world where the dollar's broken, many things are in disarray. And a lot of it gets fixed and the second and third order effects get fixed when that base error is no longer gone array, right? So the dollar is ultimately broken. And, you know, a lot of people don't see it, you don't see it with, you know, the CPI only going up 2% a year, but we really, we all know that the real inflation rate's higher than 2%, right? Like, there's just an implicit understanding that it's a lot higher. So, yeah, I think that, you know, that the corporate treasurers of the world and the CFOs are still operating, you know, they're saying, hey, we grew 6% year over year. It's like, yeah, well, you know, in 2022, the inflation rate was 9%, right?

• 43:49Speaker 02

  So you didn't grow, you shrunk, right? So that's, that's still, you know, not widely understood, or at least not, it's kind of not spoken about, but I think we all know it's happening.

• 44:04Anthony Pompliano?

  What is this going to look like 10 years from now, 20 years from now? This kind of Bitcoin treasury strategy? How do you think about this? You know, there's the guys that are doing the MicroStrategy True North podcast and content. There's people who are, you know, making large investments in these companies that obviously believe it's going to be higher or better in the future, but like, what does it actually look like a decade or two from now?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, you know, the, well, you're gonna have a lot of companies that are operating on Bitcoin standards. You're gonna have, you know, micro, I think MicroStrategy truly is gonna be one of the biggest companies in the world. You know, they're gonna be in the conversation of, you know, Mag7, right? Fang, Mag7, whatever you wanna call it. I think, you know, MicroStrategy could ultimately be a 500 billion, a trillion dollar company.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  You know, I, I don't think you know how to value, like, how do you, how do you value that growth? How, how does a market value a 20% increase in Bitcoin per share year over year? In a forward-looking, you know, discounting equities market, no one knows. And so, but, but more so, you know, the real big pools of capital is, is fixed income. Right? And so, these convertible notes are the first, the first ever, it's not a Bitcoin bond, it's a, it's a MicroStrategy convertible bond. But it's implicitly backed by Bitcoin. And so I think these, this is the first, you know, it's the first crack of the dam, if you will, right? Like, there's, there's all of this capital that, especially in the long end, not the short end, you know, okay?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  And the, the Fed fund rates 5% and inflation's 6, okay, it's fine, it's one year, you're short duration cash, who cares? The real pain, and there, there was already been the biggest, you know, Treasury's bear market in, in the history of, of modern finance in 22 and 23, right? The long end already repriced from 1% to 5%. But now, the, I think the, the realization the bond market is now coming to, especially with maybe a, a higher chance of a Trump term, or really either candidate, is that, you know, the long end's gonna be kinda quasi-sacrificed, right? We have to onshore all this manufacturing, we have to, we have to get out of this, this debt bubble in, in relative terms, we have to devalue. All right, well, we're gonna pin this long end, and, you know, we're gonna kinda let it rip.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  And so in that world, where does all this capital go? Well, you can't, like, there's, there's 100 trillion dollars of fixed income capital. You can't, they can't buy Bitcoin on Coinbase, they can't buy the Bitcoin ETF, they can't buy MicroStrategy stock, they can't buy Apple or Google stock, they have to buy bonds. And so I think the point is that, uh, you know, all these banks are coming. To the Bitcoin world. They, you know, not yet, but they're all going to want to custody Bitcoin. They all seen what happened with IBIT. I think there's the realization that Bitcoin is collateral, is perfect collateral, if done right, segregate the collateral, no rehypophication, you know, yada, yada, yada. That, you know, someone like Cantor coming out in July and saying, you had a

• 47:07Speaker 02

  great podcast with Howard, by the way. Yeah, he's a big, big, big Bitcoin bull. They have a $2 billion Bitcoin collateralized loan facility. And so, you know, that, that's a big signal to the TradFi world, right? And so, all of these companies or all of these banks are going to say, well, Bitcoin is, is, wait, this is perfect collateral. It trades 24/7, 365. We can over collateralize it. It's a no loss loan business. Okay. Yeah. I mean, let's, let's put the Bitcoin, you know, the Bitcoin borrower, the borrower rate against your Bitcoin at so for plus 100 basis points, right? Like, there's no reason that I should be able to borrow against my Apple stock or Tesla stock or whatever stock at Goldman or JP Morgan at 75 basis points higher than the

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Fed funds rate, but Bitcoin is 500 basis points, you know, above the Fed funds rate right now for Bitcoin-backed lending. Like, the problem isn't the Unchained Capitals and the Hoddle Hoddles and the Cantor Fitzgeralds of the world being greedy. The problem is like the credit, the private credit world, the, the fixed income world hasn't understood the Bitcoin story yet. You know, Bitcoin is perfect collateral. So I think there's a two-pronged kind of approach. There's, there's, the world of fixed income is realizing the power of Bitcoin now, which means that stuff like MSGR convertible notes, Bitcoin Treasury Company convertible notes. I would say, you know, we're, we're, Meta Planet is following in the steps. So we're going to, we're, we're branding as Bitcoin Treasury Company. And so I think that, that, that world,

• 48:35Speaker 02

  right, there's going to be convertible note issuers, you know, backed by BTC. That risk profile is very, very different, right? You want 5% of the Bitcoin downside, but 50% of the upside. That's a pretty strong risk profile. You know, corporate BTC Bitcoin Treasury Company convertible notes. Well, on the other side, you have all these banks, right, that are just going to begin to custody Bitcoin. We think in 2025. Well, what are they going to do it? You think they're just going to custody it? No, banks, the banks own the business of lending. Right? So once Bitcoin, as it gets entrenched into this world of finance, you know, the the hyper financialization of Bitcoin is hyper Bitcoinization, right? It, you know, getting Bitcoin on the asset side of the global balance sheet, you know, sufficient insufficient size,

• 49:19Speaker 02

  tying it to the global, you know, the the waves of liquidity. This this is hyper Bitcoinization. And so, you know, it's, I think, like, we're 12 months in, if that, to maybe nine months into the institutionalization. Like, we had 2020 to 2024, but that was, it was still not touchable to like the the suits Wall Street. You know, you're wearing a suit. But the point is, like, I think that, you know, the big money, right? The trillions of dollars of capital are now finally at the gate, right? And so, you know, Bitcoin, it was crypto, high-flying, you know, kind of hot money.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  It, we did, we had kind of four years of crypto Bitcoin equities, Coinbase, the miners, MicroStrategy. We're in the early stages of Bitcoin and fixed income, and that's the biggest capital pool in the world. Right? So you're going to be able to use Bitcoin to get a mortgage. You're going to be able to use Bitcoin to borrow at JP Morgan. You're going to be able to, you know, there's going to be underwriters of Bitcoin convertible notes, like all of these things have yet to come. And, you know, I think it's profoundly bullish. So that's kind of how I view it 10 years out, is that, you know, we're going to have a bunch of companies on a Bitcoin standard. I think BTC yield is a benchmark for a lot of Bitcoin forward companies. It's it's clear that the the the fixed income world has an insatiable demand for this, and I don't think that stops anytime soon.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, I think that's, you know, that these are the big leagues and, you know, it's still, it's still early days.

• 50:49Anthony Pompliano?

  In 30 seconds or less, tell us, what is the MetaPlanet pitch?

• 50:56Speaker 02

  MetaPlanet pitch is we are the only Bitcoin treasury company in Japan and, you know, we are doing everything we can to increase BTC per share. So Q3 Bitcoin per fully diluted share was 41% and Q4 so far is 155%. So we are, you know, we are going to dilute as fast as possible to accrete value to shareholders. And we've, I think, we're early days of the execution. So we're excited.

• 51:22Anthony Pompliano?

  That is fantastic. And Dylan, where can we send people to find you online?

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm mostly active still on Twitter. So at Dylan Leclerc underscore, doing stuff with MetaPlanets and a few other things. So yeah, I appreciate, appreciate coming on, Pom. It's been, it's been a while, at least a year. So appreciate your time. And yeah, it's early days. Excited to, maybe, maybe you guys talk to the, talk to the team at Hut. And, you know, the energy dealer role turns into a Bitcoin role as well.

• 51:51Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I think that you're all over this. I think that you are on the right side of history. And I feel like you and I are going to be talking a lot more as, as all this starts to get exciting here in this bull market. So I appreciate the time and we'll definitely do it again soon.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Appreciate it, Pom. Cheers.

• 52:08Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up, guys? I hope you're enjoying this episode, but I got a quick message for you. I just released my very first book. It's called How to Live an Extraordinary Life. In this book, there are 65 life lessons that I've picked up over the years. These lessons will teach you about money, investing, relationships, work, health, happiness, and much more. In this book, I wrote letters to each one of my children, and I tried to share those life lessons with them. If you pick up this book, there's three things that I can promise you. The first is that it is very concise. The audiobook is only three hours. You can listen to it on a long drive or on a rainy afternoon. The second thing is that you're going to learn something. It's worth the price of admission just for the lessons themselves. And then the third thing is, it will make you think more deeply about your life and how you try

• 52:52Anthony Pompliano?

  to live it. So go pick up How to Live an Extraordinary Life today. It's a quick read. It's very impactful. It's Very concise, and it would mean the world to me for the support. Go check it out today on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you buy your books. Hardcover, audiobook, it all works. Thank you so much for the support, and I'd love to hear what you think about the new book.