Conversation with Adam Grant — Honing Your Potential and Building Strong Character Traits

Adam Grant, a professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and bestselling author, joins Scott to discuss his latest book, “Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things," and more. Scott opens with his thoughts on going to the White House, Twitter’s valuation, and Meta launching a subscription service in the EU. Algebra of Happiness: fatherhood. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:18Scott Galloway?

  Episode 274. Two symbols, the area code belonging to the northeastern parts of Wisconsin. In 1974, the Rubik's Cube was invented and Richard Nixon became the first US president to resign as a result of the Watergate scandal. True story. I told my boys if they get a tattoo, they need to get it somewhere where it doesn't matter. So they got them in Wisconsin. Go, go, go!

• 1:52Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 274th episode of the Prop G Pod. In today's episode, we speak with my nemesis, my Luke, my Lex, is it Lex? My Lex Luthor. That's right, my Krypton to my excellencies. And the reality is, he doesn't see me as his nemesis, as I'm like a gnat hitting the windshield of his academic excellence. People have, no joke, mistaken me. I once got booked on MSNBC and they brought me on and they were prepping me. And I was in the makeup room and the producer came in and said, we're just thrilled to have you. And then she's like, I went to Penn. And I'm like, okay, she went to Penn? Why is she talking about it? And then it dawned on me. They thought, they thought they had booked Adam Grant. And I didn't know how to break it to them, but you realize I'm not Adam Grant.

• 2:33Scott Galloway?

  Anyways, we discuss with Adam his latest book, Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things. Well, smell you, Adam. Okay, what's happening? I was at the White House. That's right, who let the dog in? I have never been to the White House, so I was very excited. And we were there, I went there with Kara Swisher. I actually have another podcast, which may, you may not know about. It's not important, it doesn't do very well. But anyways, my co-host there is a, is a lady named Kara Swisher. And Kara found out I was going to the White House and somehow got herself invited. And we went and it was just a ton of fun.

• 3:16Scott Galloway?

  It was some observations about Washington and the White House. The first is, there is a lot going on at the White House. The White House is every tech bro's dream of people working 18 hours a day and doing nothing but working. There's people just running around everywhere and very busy, very productive. There are a lot of people with guns. That's another thing I noticed. There's an incredible firepower there, all these young, ripped men and women with all manner of guns and bulletproof vests, which I know was kind of cool, felt like kind of badass. And the other thing that really struck me is how just incredibly impressive the people were. I was there for the AI summit. And this lovely woman next to me introduced herself.

• 4:00Scott Galloway?

  And it ends up she's the deputy undersecretary for the Department of Energy. And I'm like, wow, what are you doing? She's like, well, amongst other things, we oversee the world's most powerful supercomputers. And we're providing input into AI. And it was clear within about 10 seconds of talking to this individual, she was crazy, crazy smart. And it ends up, she's a chemist and her name is Geraldine Richmond. She's from the University of Oregon and has this incredibly distinguished career as a chemist. And it just, it just amazes me that our government is able to comb the four corners of the earth and find these incredibly impressive people.

• 4:41Scott Galloway?

  Anyways, the government in DC is just super inspiring and it was, it was just a ton of fun to be at the White House. Okay. Anyways, let's talk about the new executive order that outlines how the US can be the leader, or continue to be the leader in AI, all while reining in this technology's potential harm. I mean, when you really think about it, it's just exceptional. An entirely new technology, you know, 10 countries making multi-billion, if not trillion dollar investments in technology. And what do you know, the people who come up with the gangster or kind of own the new gangster technology and capture the majority of its value are not only in America, not only in California, but in about a seven mile radius of SFO. It's just amazing. I don't care if it's Nvidia or Anthropic. I think Anthropic is in the Bay Area, is it? Hmm, hmm, hmm.

• 5:27Scott Galloway?

  Want to hear my imitation of Dr. Evil?

• 5:30Speaker 02

  How about no?

• 5:32Scott Galloway?

  That's good.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  How about no?

• 5:34Scott Galloway?

  Anyways, this extensive order, if you will, from the administration, is requiring that AI developers submit their safety test results to the government to ensure their products are not making alarming things like biological or nuclear weapons. See, I'm kind of on board with that. I'm kind of on board with somebody who, you know, kind of just ensuring they're not making biological or nuclear weapons. And the government can demand this type of order under the Defense Production Act. The Defense Production Act is a Cold War era law that gives the president power to control domestic industries, specifically in the interest of national defense. Makes sense to me. The executive order around AI also outlines several other measures around civil rights, consumer protection, scientific research and worker rights. So. Goldman Sachs estimates that AI investment could

• 6:18Scott Galloway?

  reach 100 billion in the US and 200 billion globally by 2025. Bloomberg reported that at least 25 US states considered AI-related legislation in 2023, and 15 have already passed laws or resolutions. This sweeping order comes about a month after Congress brought tech leaders, including Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella, and Sam Altman down to DC to discuss guardrails around AI. So the market is obviously inspired by AI. I would argue that the majority of the gains in the S&P and the Nasdaq have been AI-inspired. Not necessarily that AI is having that much impact already, but people believe that Microsoft and Nvidia and Netflix and Meta are going to continue to register enormous upside from AI technology. Also, what should we talk about? What else is going on?

• 7:03Scott Galloway?

  I know, let's talk about me. I was on Bill Maher on Friday, and I did not enjoy it. This is my fourth time. Fourth time? Fourth time. I'm trusting that the fifth time I get access to some sort of special steam room and a jacket. I did not enjoy it as much this time. One, I get increasingly nervous. I'm always nervous about going on the show, but this week it just sort of was in my head way too much. And this week was a weird week. They had Governor Andrew Cuomo on as the kind of initial interview, and he came out there with one of his deputies, which was sort of awkward. There was two of them. I do not envy the producer that had to thread that impossible needle of not being an apologist for Governor Cuomo, but obviously giving him some space to explain himself and give

• 7:47Scott Galloway?

  him some running room while offering pointed questions. I think if, actually, if you look at the interview, I think Bill actually puts on a masterclass around how to thread that needle. I think he's just, for lack of a better word, I just think he's such a pro. But because it went long, the actual panel interview, I was on with Jessica Tarlov, who's kind of the sane gangster on The Five on Fox, who's fantastic. I think she's a star. I think she's going to have her own show soon, and she's You know, just super smart and lovely. And I got to meet her and her husband, which was really nice. But the panel was cut short, so we didn't really get a chance to get into anything. But also, the overtime session was with the governor and his aide. And we were talking about everything from Israel to deaths in nursing homes.

• 8:31Scott Galloway?

  And I'm sitting there thinking, Jesus Christ, I'm a marketing professor. Can't we talk about TikTok or something? It was just so heavy and fraught with so many, like, one, one false move and you cancel yourself for the rest of your life. Anyway, so that was Bill Maher for me. Poor me, poor me. But, but the good news is soon after, I put on a Deadpool costume and I went to this great Casamigos party. I'm now at the point where I'm not cool or famous enough to be invited to cool parties for being cool or famous. I get invited as sort of the diversity invite. They're like, oh, yeah, makes this interesting to invite kind of a lame professor. And I just have a great time because I love to drink and I love hanging around hot people. Who wouldn't? Who wouldn't? L.A. for the weekend, Beverly Hills Hotel, which I absolutely love. I absolutely love.

• 9:16Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, am I rubbing my privilege in your face a little bit? But you know what? I spent most of my life with no money. So it's just so much fucking fun to have it, quite frankly, and spend it at the counter, which is the best breakfast spot in the world. Anyway, I absolutely love it there. Great weekend. And then talk about a contrast to go to the White House was fantastic. All right, enough about Scott. Sorry about that. The you have to pay the Scott tax when you listen, when you listen to Prop G. What else is going on? X is supposedly worth less than X. Fuck X. Twitter, it's Twitter. Twitter is worth less than half of what Elon paid for a year ago. Employees were given equity in the company at a valuation of $19 million or $45 a share. So first off, that's total bullshit. It's not, it's, it's equity values decline by 100%.

• 9:59Scott Galloway?

  And just a quick lesson in cap structure. A company typically has debt and then equity. So Twitter has $13 billion in debt. They borrowed, or he borrowed $13 billion in what was the largest impulse purchase in history to finance his $45 billion acquisition of Twitter. So imagine you buy a house and you borrow $100,000 to buy the house and the house is worth $150,000. That means you have $100,000 in debt and $50,000 in equity. And if the company becomes worth $100,000 or the house becomes worth $100,000, you lose all of your equity because like, well, you still owe the 100 grand. So the equity has been wiped out. So equity is kind of the tail of the whip here.

• 10:40Scott Galloway?

  And the way you look at this, as you look at is the company worth more than the debt? If the company's not worth more than the debt, then the equity value is zero. And in this instance, they're talking about finally JP Morgan, is it JP Morgan or Morgan Stanley, Barclays and B of A, I don't think JP Morgan is in this one, still holds the $13 billion in paper. In other words, they have an obligation from Twitter. They say, all right, Twitter, you owe us $13 billion. We owe the paper. We own the bonds, if you will. And at some point, as investment banks are not in the storage business, they're in the moving business, they have to sell this debt to the market. Now, the reason they haven't done that yet is interest rates accelerated so fast that the debt on Twitter, that they managed to raise money, offering a 12% coupon in exchange

• 11:25Scott Galloway?

  for loaning Twitter this money, interest rates have skyrocketed, meaning that 12% premium on a company, or that 12% coupon on a company that's this risky and has seen such a massive implosion in revenues, would no longer satisfy the market. So the bonds trade down in value. You're not getting $12 on $100. You're now getting, you'd get $12 on 75. Bonds worth $75, meaning that you are getting an annual coupon of, I don't know what that would be, 16 or 18%. So these bonds are trading for less than what Morgan Stanley paid for them. And so essentially, when they sell these bonds, they're going to have to take or cure the loss, meaning if they sell them for 70 cents on the dollar and they have $13

• 12:09Scott Galloway?

  billion worth of these bonds, they're going to lose 30% of $13 billion. Oh, they'll lose, what is that, 3.9 billion? And they'll have to take that loss in their next earnings. And they've been avoiding that, hoping that the market comes back. But at some point, they gotta get this shit off of their books. See, above, not in the storage business, in the moving business. Now, if those bonds go out for less than 100 cents on the dollar, which they will, it kind of implies that there's no equity value. And the question is, is this thing worth $13 billion? And I would argue it isn't. What is Twitter? Twitter is unprecedented. I would challenge you to come up with any company doing more than $5 billion a year, which Twitter was, it was doing, I think, about $5 or $5.5 billion

• 12:49Scott Galloway?

  a year, that registers a 50-plus percent decline in revenues within six months, which is what happened to Twitter. They're claiming it's 55. I bet they're lying again, and it's more like 60 or 70. And not during wartime. I've just never heard of that. What's the lesson here? Understand the cap structure. If you're buying a stock, the most basic kind of valuation or financial literacy you need to do when you're looking at the value of the company is you look at the debt plus equity minus the cash. If they have cash, you take that off of the enterprise value. Anyways, little basic finance valuation 101 from the dog. All right, what else? Meta launched a subscription service in the EU. Starting in November, users can pay 10 euros per month on the web or 13 euros a month

• 13:33Scott Galloway?

  on iOS and Android to get an ad-free experience. The subscription service in the EU, it's only available to people 18 and older. That's a good idea. We should age gate all social media. And it's an attempt to address European regulators' concerns over the firm's ad targeting and data collection practices. In other words, it's getting so hard to advertise, they're like, let's go to subscription. Meta also says it's pausing ads for teens in the EU as they roll out this subscription. I think that's a great idea. Like, I love subscription businesses just because of valuation metrics that if you do 100 million in subscription revenue, you get valued at 600 or 800 million. If you do 100 million in ad revenue, you're going to get valued at 200 to 300 million. Why?

• 14:15Scott Galloway?

  When you have a recession, your advertising revenue goes down by 40%, but your subscription revenue typically goes down 3%, 5%, maybe 10%. Look at what happened with the rioters' strike. The ad-supported guys, fucked, right? The advertisers are like, well, if it's not a new Jimmy Kimmel, or you're putting in some dumb reality show that's non-union, we're just not going to advertise. Netflix grows its subscribers, grows its subscribers. And also, Meta, I hate to say it, is arguably the best-managed company in tech, or one of them. Its last quarter just blew my mind, literally blew my mind, okay? Okay, why? Why? Because they grew their revenues 24% while reducing costs.

• 15:03Scott Galloway?

  7%. I've never seen that before. I've never seen on a company of this size that does whatever they do, 70 or 80 billion a year. I've never seen a company grow its revenues of this size, 23% or 24% while reducing costs. This company, no doubt, is one of the best managed companies right now. Now, unfortunately, stocks at 300 bucks. Let's look at the one-year returns. Oh, my God, the internet. Oh, it's up 222% over the last 12 months. I mean, it was at, this blows me. It was at 88 bucks a year ago. Now it's at 300. Jesus Christ. Couldn't happen to more a mendacious group of fuckeries than Meta.

• 15:47Scott Galloway?

  But you have to acknowledge this company is incredibly well managed. Move to subscription avoids some of the advertising concerns. And if they can establish a revenue stream that's subscription, that's growing even faster than the core advertising business, you're going to see multiple expansion. Again, the way you improve your stock price is, well, there's a lot of ways, right? You're perceived as something AI. But generally speaking, it's either going to be a function of an earnings increase or a multiple expansion. And over the last 10 years, we've seen both in the S and P. We've seen both an increase in earnings and probably even more so, a multiple expansion. Is that right? Is there multiple expansion? No. Anyways, I'm sticking with it. But there's no denying this company puts on a masterclass around management. I love subscription businesses. Why? Why?

• 16:30Scott Galloway?

  We want to be in relationships where we know what we're expecting. You don't want to wake up and think, who am I, who am I waking up with this morning? Unless it's early in the relationship, that's kind of fun. That's a little sauce. Oh, my God, she's crazy. That's good in the short run. That's good in the short run. Not in the medium or the long term. Kind of, kind of, you know, you want to make sure, ideally, you want to be in a partnership where you're sort of fresh out of crazy a lot. Like, let's go into the crazy cupboard. Oh, the shelves are pretty barren. That is the basis of a good relationship. Drama's fun for a little bit, and if you enjoy drama, there's something wrong with you. Anyways, I've always brought that to my friendships and my relationships. I am fairly low drama. I take it all inward and I fight amongst myself and get depressed. But I'm very low drama as it relates to other entities. Except when I'm checking into a hotel.

• 17:15Scott Galloway?

  If they can't give me the wireless code really quickly, if I get upstairs and I don't know where anything is, I get, I create a lot of drama. Probably means I'm an asshole. Anyways, anyways, we want consistent expectations in the marketplace. We don't want to be in a relationship with a bipolar stock. We don't want to, we want to know what we're waking up with. And subscription revenues just kind of smooth out the bumps and the market just absolutely loves them. It's easier to predict cash flows and then you can plan your CapEx better, generally more sticky. No one cancels their Netflix or Amazon Prime subscription. That means your credit card has expired, but Meta, going to be very interesting to see if this gets any traction. And if it does, if it does, look for them to constantly talk about it in their earnings calls, because they'll register that wonderful multiple expansion that companies like Netflix

• 18:00Scott Galloway?

  and to a lesser extent, Amazon Prime get, because a big part of their revenue is recurring revenue. Recurring revenue. We want to be in relationships with people and companies that are low drama.

• 18:12Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back for our conversation with Adam Grant.

• 18:20Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Built. Most of us work hard to earn our keep, but usually there's no one around to hand you a cookie when you successfully pay your monthly housing bill. No one except Built, that is. Built has expanded from their original renter rewards program, and they have a lot more going on for members now. For example, members can earn points on mortgage payments, too. Every housing payment gets you points that get you a lot more than baked goods, such as flights with top travel partners, including United and Hyatt, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, and much, much more. Here's another benefit of Built membership. You also get access to what they call a neighborhood concierge. You can make restaurant reservations, book fitness classes, and find new local spots, all while rewarding you at more than 45,000 merchant partners. It's simple.

• 19:02Scott Galloway?

  Being a renter and now owning a home feels a lot better with Built. You can download the Built app and join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com/prog. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com/prog. Use our link so they know we sent you.

• 19:20Scott Galloway?

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• 20:03Scott Galloway?

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• 20:42Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist and professor at the Wharton School and a bestselling author of several books, including his latest, Hidden Potential. Adam Grant, my nemesis. So I had a story about this. Look at you shaking your head. Hold on, I gotta be the story. I was on, I think it was MSNBC? Anyways, they go, the producer, the scheduling producer who looked at about 14, came up to me and said, "We're so glad to finally get you on the show, and we just love your work." And also, I went to Penn. And I'm like, "Okay." And then it became slowly obvious to me that they thought they had invited you on this show. And I had to say, "You realize I'm Scott Galloway, and I teach at NYU Stern. I'm not the org guy from Wharton.

• 21:26Scott Galloway?

  And you just saw their faces sink in disappointment. So I have been mistaken for you. People think they're getting you when they get me." Anyways, Adam Grant, good to see you.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  Likewise, Scott. I'm really sorry. I had nothing to do with that.

• 21:40Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's, I'm, I'm literally, I'm, I'm kind of, you and I have spoken on the same stage together, and I think they always put you behind me because they don't want to, they're like, okay, we can't have Scott follow that guy. Anyways, let's, let's bust right into it. You have a new book out, Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things, and in it you write, "If natural talent determines where people start, learned character affects how far they go. But character skills aren't always immediately apparent." So let's start there. How should we be better thinking about talent and potential?

• 22:16Speaker 04

  Well, I think the mistake that a lot of people make is they judge potential by where people start. So if you look like a natural, you're destined for great things. If you're a prodigy, the ceiling is, is extremely high. If you struggle at first, if you fail, if, if you seem like you lack capability, then we start to question you. And we do this to ourselves, too, which is why so many people end up feeling like either imposters or underdogs. And I think that's a huge mistake, because potential is not about where you begin, it's about how far you can travel.

• 22:49Scott Galloway?

  What are some of the character skills that you think are most under and overrated?

• 22:55Speaker 04

  Well, I think, I mean, the basics are kindergarten skills, right? So when you study, what are the character skills that you actually learn in kindergarten that matter for your adult success? You find that kids who learn to be disciplined, determined, proactive, and pro-social do better. And for me, that's kind of table stakes. Those are pretty obvious. We know those skills matter. What I got curious about is, what are the more sophisticated applications of those skills? And so I guess I've, I've started to break them down into a few categories. You know, when I think about adult character skills, the ones that we need to learn to continue growing and reaching our potential, I think we need determination to seek out and embrace discomfort. We need to be proactive in being sponges, and by

• 23:40Speaker 04

  that I mean, we need to not only absorb information that will help us improve, but we also need to filter out criticism and maybe some pieces of data that won't benefit us. And then finally, we need the discipline to accept the right imperfections, as opposed to trying to ace everything.

• 24:02Scott Galloway?

  What are the core signs that someone has hidden potential? Like, how do you recognize what might be a hidden potential within someone?

• 24:10Speaker 04

  Well, where do you want to do this? Should we think about job interviews, betting on a founder, college admissions?

• 24:17Scott Galloway?

  All of that. Let's take you to those.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  All of the above. All right, let's start with job interviews. So my favorite example that I've seen is a call center called Call Yehol. The founder, Guy Winch, is a fellow organizational psychologist, and he decided years ago that he was going to hire people with disabilities. So he started hiring people who are neurodivergent. He hired people who are blind and deaf. And he knew that he had to do something different in order to see their hidden potential in a job interview, because they were so often underestimated and overlooked by society. So what he did was, he said, at the end of the interview, I'm going to ask them how they thought it went. And then if they weren't happy with it, I'm going to give them a do-over. And I thought what was brilliant about that is that it's actually the change from

• 25:04Speaker 04

  the first interview to the second that shows us somebody's potential to grow. When you improve dramatically, when you get that second effort, that's a sign that you have strong motivation and ability to learn. And I think that's what we should be looking for. So Scott, this tracks with the science for me. I think the research says pretty clearly, past experience is a terrible predictor of future performance. You might have had the same year of experience on a job 20 times. That doesn't tell us a whole lot about your capacity to learn a job. That evidence also says that prior credentials and prior performance aren't that useful. If we want to look at future potential, we want to know, do you have the character skills to overcome adversity?

• 25:47Speaker 04

  And I don't know of a better way to see that than looking at whether somebody can improve if they didn't do a great job on their first try.

• 25:55Scott Galloway?

  There's this new kind of train of thought that I'm struggling to wrap my head around, and it seems a bit contrary to some of your writing and thought leadership. And it's just not like I was on with Dr. Sapolsky, who I think is an evolutionary anthropologist. And Sam Harris is talking a lot about this.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  Oh, we're talking about free will.

• 26:13Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, that there's no such thing, that you're kind of the die or cast.

• 26:19Scott Galloway?

  What are your thoughts? It's a bit of a movement right now and it's compelling when you hear about it. And I understand when they're talking about it. And then I'm like, this feels like it's, it almost feels sort of borderline unhealthy that we don't have self determination. What are your thoughts about it?

• 26:32Speaker 04

  I've never understood the appeal of this argument. And I also want to know, if we don't have free will, then who forced Sam and Robert to make these arguments?

• 26:40Scott Galloway?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 04

  Because clearly it wasn't their choice.

• 26:42Scott Galloway?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  I mean, look, I'm not a philosopher. I'm a psychologist. But I think there's, there's a logical fallacy that, that leads people to reject free will. So if I understand Sapolsky's argument, he's basically saying, look, there are a lot of forces outside of your awareness and outside of your control that influence your decisions and your behaviors. That's true. That doesn't mean I don't still have choices about what I do and who I become. So most personality traits are about 40% heritable.

• 27:12Scott Galloway?

  Hmm.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  And, you know, we should not discount nature, you know, whether you're an extrovert or an introvert, whether you tend to be more agreeable like me or disagreeable like you.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  There's a biogenetic set of influences on that and we can, we can see it in your brain chemistry. But that leaves a lot unaccounted for by nature. And I think, you know, you can think about your upbringing and your, you know, your, your culture is shaping your choices. But at the end of the day, I don't think there's any reason to believe that we don't decide our own destiny within the set of constraints and affordances that we have in front of us.

• 27:49Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, makes sense. That's well put. Talk about how alternating between different skills can lead to better performance.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  This was a complete surprise to me. It was one of my favorite things that I learned while I was writing Hidden Potential. I've always assumed that you should practice the same skill over and over until you get better at it. So back in my days as a springboard diver, I would do, you know, five or seven reps of the same dive and try to make little adjustments. And then hopefully I'm working toward mastery. And yet, experiments show that you're better off doing what's called interleaving, which is, let's say, you know, you're, you're trying to improve as, as a mathematician and an artist. You should spend maybe 10 or 15 minutes working on your math skills and then switch over to painting and then switch back. And there's something about, one, the variety that's motivating.

• 28:38Speaker 04

  It keeps you from either burning yourself out or just experiencing what psychologists call bore out, which is literally being bored out of your mind. And then there's also, there's a processing benefit that when you switch regularly, there's deeper learning that comes from having to recall the skills and kind of pick them up fresh as opposed to just repeating them on autopilot.

• 29:00Scott Galloway?

  So I just want to press pause. You said you're a springboard diver. I forgot about that, but I remember hearing it once. So my last company, L2, we were very data-driven and we used to rank people. And, you know, that's probably a hate crime now, but we used to evaluate people and sort of rank them relative to each other. And I'm sure you're going to tell me that's the wrong way to do it, but anyways, we did it. And then we try and find correlations so we could improve our recruiting or be more inclined to hire certain people over others. And we came away with three things, and these things are all a little bit upsetting. The first was they went to an elite school. And nobody wants to believe that now and everyone's saying, and there's a lot of research showing that people from non-elite schools, especially the top, have similar outcomes.

• 29:43Scott Galloway?

  But we found that people who went to great schools were generally the top performers. Two, that they had participated in sports and specifically like a sport like diving or gymnastics, kind of individual performance. It wasn't a romance sport, but required a lot of discipline. And then three, and we would never say this out loud, our top performers were women. And now there's a lot of data coming out showing that, especially when you're hiring young people, that women's prefrontal cortex just matures earlier. I'd love to know when you're going to tell me the dangers and the caveats of having that kind of bias, if you will, but also specifically the importance of competitive sports or other types of activities that can enhance performance as an adult.

• 30:29Speaker 04

  Fascinating. I have so many questions for you. How were you measuring performance at L2 when you did this ranking?

• 30:35Scott Galloway?

  We would do 360 reviews and we would look at how strong their performance was in the eyes of their colleagues, their peers, subjective judgment around how they were driving client satisfaction, their analytical skills, their communication skills, and whether they were a culture carrier, that they generally enhanced the culture, they made it a nicer environment to be around. We had a sort of a balanced scorecard assessment.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  I'd be very curious to triangulate those scores with objective performance data, which is obviously sometimes hard to get. But I wonder, when I think about the, let's start with the elite schools, when I think about the elite school advantage, there could be obviously some bias in how people are judging candidates who are known to have a strong pedigree versus not. There's also, there's some work by Stern and Westphal that suggests that one of the sort of hidden advantages of generally coming from an upper class background that makes you more likely to get into a top school is you learn these sophisticated influence tactics that are sort of out of reach for people who didn't have a privileged background. So instead of complimenting people directly, you compliment

• 31:44Speaker 04

  them behind their backs and then it gets back to them. Instead of selling your idea in a pretty assertive or maybe even aggressive way, you come and say, I'd love your advice. What do you think about this idea? How could I get it heard? And so I wonder if there's some tacit knowledge that's not available to people who didn't come from an elite background.

• 32:06Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, I can, I mean, you just see the millions of ways that in a capitalist society, so much advantage accrues to people or kids from wealthy households. I mean, stuff you never even think about. In the book, you point to the fact that students actually learn more when they have the same teacher for multiple years, which I thought was really interesting. Because when we, both of us are educators, how my K through 12 schools better format themselves so that students Live up to their potential? And have you given any thought to in higher education? What might be some fixes or some improvements in terms of getting kids a greater ROI on the substantial investment they make in higher ed?

• 32:48Speaker 04

  There's so much that we need to rethink there. I think, well, first of all, the idea of having the same teacher multiple years, it's a small effect, but it's been demonstrated in North Carolina, Indiana, Tennessee, Chile. And what seems to happen is when kids have more extended relationships with teachers, teachers are better suited to, you know, not just instruct, but actually mentor and coach. And they're much more effective at personalizing their instruction. Kids are also less likely to be absent. They have fewer disruptive issues. And then immediately, everybody wants to know, well, what if my kid gets like Professor Snape? And, you know, interestingly, in the data, staying with the same teacher for multiple

• 33:29Speaker 04

  years is more effective if the teacher is poor or if the students are struggling. And so I wouldn't necessarily count this out as, you know, something that's only relevant if you have a great teacher, because teachers can grow with their students over time. But that's, I think that's one small practice that's not expensive. It's fairly easy to implement. It also gives teachers variety, so they don't have to teach the same material every single year. What else can we do? I think, I think the evidence is pretty clear and consistent that play-based education is powerful, particularly early on. So I'm a big fan of the Finnish practice of giving kids 15 minutes of recess for every 45 minutes of instruction. We've kind of done the opposite in the US where kindergarten has become more and more like first grade.

• 34:13Speaker 04

  You're spending less time on dinosaurs and space and the things that help kids love to learn. And instead, doing much more sitting at your desk, drilling, you know, how to write sentences and how to do addition. And I think that's a mistake, because empirically, the kids who get the best grades and ultimately show the most growth later on are the ones who have intrinsic motivation to learn. And I don't know of a better way to cultivate intrinsic motivation to learn than to make school playful early on.

• 34:42Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, a lot of people I respect say at the end of the day, the best thing you can do for your own kids is just to get them to play. Walk us through the Peter Principle.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, so this is a classic idea in sociology that you basically get promoted to your level of incompetence. The basic thought is that every time you succeed at a job, you move up. And then at some point, you're not good at your job anymore, so you can't get promoted and you get stuck there.

• 35:09Scott Galloway?

  Should we be rethinking this? I find there's a hierarchy, and they've gotten a little bit better. People talk about individual contributors, but there's this general gestalt, I think, in corporate America that if you don't keep elevating by traditional titles, you have failed. And to me, it squanders human capital and creates unnecessary shame. What are your thoughts?

• 35:32Speaker 04

  I'm disappointed to be agreeing with you on that, Scott.

• 35:35Scott Galloway?

  It's a bad sign. It's a red flag, Adam.

• 35:38Speaker 04

  It's a problem. But, no, I mean, look, I think the evidence is pretty clear on this one. You can see it in research by economists on salespeople, where the salespeople who are the best revenue generators are more likely to get promoted, and they're actually worse at management.

• 35:53Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, they're taken out of sales. Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, so why would you want to put them in a position where they're not using their most effective skills? It turns out the best managers are not the people who are the biggest brainmakers in those individual contributor jobs. They're the people who are the most collaborative in helping their colleagues sell. And so I've become a fan of dual promotion tracks, to say, you could stay individual salesperson, or engineer, or pick whatever your role is, and we're going to give you a bigger title, and we're going to give you a raise, but we're not going to require you to manage people if you want to move up, because you may not have the skill or the will to do that effectively.

• 36:27Scott Galloway?

  Mm-hmm. Something I struggle with, and you talk about it in the book, is how to deal with imposter syndrome. What can people do to mitigate that feeling?

• 36:36Speaker 04

  You still feel like an imposter?

• 36:38Scott Galloway?

  Oh, Adam, I'm 100-- not 100%, I'm 90% confident people are going to figure out that I'm not that talented and not that good and not that quality a person, and my whole world's going to come crashing down. I constantly have that fear.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  Really?

• 36:53Scott Galloway?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  I had no idea.

• 36:55Scott Galloway?

  Yeah. Well, it's because you haven't invested in our relationship, Adam. I need you to spend more time with me. No, I have huge imposter syndrome. Anyways, what can people do to mitigate that?

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Well, first thing is, the research by Basima Tuftik on it is very powerful. She asked the question, why do we have to turn it into a syndrome? Yes, there are people who walk around feeling like I'm an actual fraud, and it's only a matter of minutes until everyone finds out. But most people are not like that. Most of us, we have these temporary moments of doubt, wondering, am I up to this challenge? Am I qualified for this role? Are other people overestimating me? Am I as good as they think I am? And what Basima shows, she studied how often people had those thoughts among military cadets, medical professionals, investment professionals. She found no consistent costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  She actually found benefits, that people tended to work longer, knowing they had something to prove.

• 37:55Scott Galloway?

  Hundred percent.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  And they tended to listen better, knowing they had something to learn.

• 37:58Scott Galloway?

  It's a feature, not a bug. I find it's a feature, not a bug, that I want to live up to people's image of me. It's very motivating. People think I'm really good, and people think I'm a good person, and that inspires me to try and foot to that.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  Well, you've already answered your own question. Now, I should say, I think it's probably easier to do that as a white guy.

• 38:15Scott Galloway?

  Hundred percent.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  Where the world generally expects you to rise to those standards. But yeah, I think Basima's advice is exactly what you've just said. It's to say, hey, if I feel like an imposter, that means other people think I'm pretty great, and now I need to go and earn that. I would go further. I think imposter syndrome is actually a sign of hidden potential. Because other people have a more neutral and more objective view of you than you do of yourself. And odds are, if they have high expectations of you, they have seen some capacity in you to grow that you haven't recognized yet.

• 38:53Scott Galloway?

  Mm-hmm. You recently tweeted, "I am who I am is not a sign of a strong identity. It's a mark of a closed mind. A rigid sense of self is a barrier to growth. It makes you a prisoner of your past." Say more about what makes one have a strong sense of self.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  That's an interesting question. Well, a mistake I see a lot of people make is they anchor their identities on their opinions and beliefs.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  And that stops you from evolving what you think and also how you think. So I think a strong sense of self is not, you know, basically, I am what I think is true. It's I am what I think is important. In other words, I think if you're going to have a strong identity, it should be grounded in your values, not your beliefs. So maybe an easy example of this would be if you're a doctor, if you decide that your identity is around doing, well, let's go back a half a century or so, you know, I'm a professional lobotomist. And that's what I believe is helpful to people. You're going to have a really hard time accepting the evidence that removing part of people's

• 40:03Speaker 04

  brain is not actually helping them resolve the disorder that you're trying to treat. Whereas if you anchor your identity on a value of, you know, protecting people's health and trying to promote their well-being, then as soon as the evidence shifts, you can change your mind with it. And so, yeah, I would not want to go to the doctor who has an identity around particular treatments. I want to go to the doctor who has an identity around following the evidence around particular treatments.

• 40:33Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 40:38Scott Galloway?

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• 41:23Scott Galloway?

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• 42:31Scott Galloway?

  What, what types of personalities do you think are missing from leadership roles? What characteristics or attributes do we overindex on when we're trying to pick a leader versus those we underindex on?

• 42:43Speaker 04

  All right. So if you skip to chapter eight of Hidden Potential, there is some disconcerting evidence that we tend to promote narcissists consistently because we mistake their confidence for competence. We also overinvest in extroverts because it's called the Babbel Effect. The person who talks the most is the most likely to seem leader-like, dominant, confident, assertive, even though that person isn't at all more qualified or more capable. So I think we should stop elevating the people who take up the most space and we should start looking at people who have the character to elevate everyone else around them. So I guess my big, my big test of leadership is, is not, is this the smartest person in

• 43:26Speaker 04

  the room, but rather do they make the room smarter? And that really comes back to character strengths and skills. I want to promote people who are givers rather than takers. I think often we call that servant leadership. I want to promote people who bring humility, not narcissism, to the table so that instead of denying their weaknesses and silencing their critics, they actually work to overcome their weaknesses and embrace their critics as an opportunity to learn. And I think if we started there, generosity and humility, we would go a long way.

• 44:02Scott Galloway?

  Really curious to get your thoughts on it. And there's no easy to segue here, but as an organizational psychologist, I'm just so I'm curious what you think about the organizations in higher ed that are coming under enormous strain and stress based on what's happening in Israel and Gaza. And Penn has come under a huge attack for not being more forceful, for the leadership not being more forceful in renouncing or speaking up against terrorism. I'm just very curious what your thoughts on are in terms of universities as an organization? And is this highlighting an issue with the organization? Is this a healthy process? What are your thoughts about what's going on on college campuses right now?

• 44:44Speaker 04

  First of all, I would not want one of those jobs.

• 44:47Scott Galloway?

  Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine?

• 44:48Speaker 04

  I cannot imagine. So I guess I want to start as somebody who studies organizations and leaders, but doesn't have a position of responsibility like that. Let's just appreciate how challenging it is and how many different stakeholders are pressuring you to favor their politics. That said, I don't think it should be hard to see the difference between free speech and hate speech. And I think we should have swift responses and strong action against that. So that, to me, is kind of table stakes. I think the, I guess, one of the tricky things here is that we're seeing a lot of

• 45:31Speaker 04

  different voices call on leaders to make statements. And I think for the most part, the statements are the empty, they're empty words. What I want to see are policies that are going to be enacted and enforced consistently. And so, sure, it's nice to have an email. It's sort of, I guess, a little bit of useful virtue signaling to see a social media post. But at the end of the day, what I think that leaders need to be doing is to say, look, here are the different circumstances that could arise that would require us to take extreme action to prevent marginalized groups, groups that are under threat, from being physically or psychologically unsafe on our campus.

• 46:15Speaker 04

  And here's what violations look like, and here's what we're going to do about it. And I don't think those policies have been clearly spelled out.

• 46:22Scott Galloway?

  I think that's really powerful, Adam. And I love what you just said. There's a difference between free speech and hate speech. And You know, I was so rattled. I don't know, it's funny, as you get older, I don't know about you, but I was a younger man, I was just sleepwalking through life. This kind of thing didn't really weigh on me very much. And now I find it's really rattling, for lack of a better term, triggering, whatever the right term would be. And when I see students at our most prestigious universities chanting what is just clearly hate speech, I believe that we should use, I don't know, whatever technology to identify them and then kick them out of school. I agree with you. I don't, I'm not, I don't want to see any social media posts.

• 47:06Scott Galloway?

  I don't care about a letter to alumni that attempts to please everybody and pleases nobody. But I do think, and we are lacking there, I think it's time for someone to come out and say, hate speech is unacceptable and we're, we're going to kick you out of school. You don't, you are here, you know, it is an honor for you to be here. And there are lines, you know, no shoes, no service. And one of those things is hate speech. Anyway, a bit of a speech on my end. What are your thoughts?

• 47:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a lot of leaders have been taken aback, not realizing that it should not be, no one should need to say that this is unacceptable. We shouldn't need to have a policy about this. It's, I mean, how could it not be more obvious? And so I think that's probably caught some off guard.

• 47:51Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, so Will, that is obviously a very heavy topic that requires more conversation. What, you're sort of, you're kind of, I don't want to call you, you're not even rounding third base, you're still a young man, you're rounding second base. Do you set goals for yourself for the next five or 10 years? Is it just reach and influence? Is it more bestselling books? Do you, do you write down specific objectives of where, if you, if someone said, all right, you're going to wake up and it's five years or 10 years from now, what do you hope to achieve that you haven't achieved already?

• 48:25Speaker 04

  Well, those are terrible goals. Reach, influence, bestselling books.

• 48:31Scott Galloway?

  Why? If you're doing important work.

• 48:33Speaker 04

  Well, but it's the important work that matters.

• 48:36Scott Galloway?

  Okay.

• 48:38Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, but you don't want to be a tree falling in the forest. You need to get it out there.

• 48:41Speaker 04

  Of course, but I think those are really poor proxies for impact. So let's take a book, for example. We can both name some authors, and I'm not going to name them, who sold a lot of books that were read by very few people. That's a failure, in my opinion.

• 48:55Scott Galloway?

  I love that. Sold a lot of books, but were read by very few people. In other words, they got caught up in what was supposed to be a hot book, and they bought it, and they didn't get past the first chapter because it wasn't very well written?

• 49:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 49:06Scott Galloway?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 04

  And I think the opposite is, you know, is actually a success. You write something that really moves even a small group of people, whether it helps them live a better life, or, you know, enriches their thinking in a meaningful way, or enables them to solve a problem in the world. I don't care about the reach there. What I care about is the depth of impact. And, you know, funnily enough, Scott, when I was actually first starting as an organizational psychologist, one of the early questions I was curious about is, what matters for people's motivation? Is it the scope of impact, or is it the depth of impact? And in the data I collected, depth just swamped scope. So it didn't matter how many people you reached. What mattered was, like, how much did you touch each person

• 49:52Speaker 04

  who was affected by your work? So for me, what that means is, when I sit down to think about next project for, you know, five-year horizon, I want to ask, what's an interesting and important problem that I can take on that I can bring novel evidence and a fresh thesis to?

• 50:10Scott Galloway?

  Adam, do you have kids?

• 50:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, we have three.

• 50:13Scott Galloway?

  How old?

• 50:14Speaker 04

  They are 15, 12, and 10.

• 50:16Scott Galloway?

  What, so you're, you're kind of in the salad days, or the golden years, except for the 15-year-old. Is the 15-year-old a boy or a girl?

• 50:23Speaker 04

  Girl.

• 50:24Scott Galloway?

  I can't speak to that. I have a six-year-old boy, and I've gone from his hero to the anti-hero in about six months. So what, how has your work impacted your role as a father, or the other way around?

• 50:37Speaker 04

  I try not to take too much work home. I feel like I never wanted to be one of those psychologists who screws up our kids. So I don't know that it's had a huge impact. I think, you know, I certainly read more developmental psychology and more parenting research than I probably would if I were in a different field. And I hope some of that's been useful. I think one of the things I've, I guess I've learned from that, you know, I'm a complete consumer in this area, not a producer at all. But one of the things I've learned from the research is kids, at the end of the day, they need to feel that they matter. That's one of the most important forces for mental health. And you've talked, Scott, a lot about the crisis that boys are facing right now.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  I think in many ways, it's a crisis of mattering. So when most parents think about mattering, they think about making sure that their kids are unconditionally loved and that they get their attention. But what we forget is that in order to matter, you also need to feel that other people rely on you, that you make a difference. And so one of the ways that I've tried to make that a reality in our house is when I struggle with something, I don't hide it. I don't just tell our kids about it. I ask for their advice on how to handle my challenges. And what I'm trying to do is, one, recognize that we can all learn something from everybody we meet, including our own children. They know things that we don't.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  They see things about us that we can't. Sometimes they're the best mirrors to help us recognize our blind spots. But two, I want to show them that they have the competence to solve adult challenges, even as kids. And the hope is that builds their confidence over time. And I don't think it would have ever occurred to me to do that if I weren't geeking out on psychology research in my spare time.

• 52:25Scott Galloway?

  Any thoughts on being a good partner?

• 52:29Speaker 04

  I have many thoughts on being a good partner. Where do you want to go with that?

• 52:34Scott Galloway?

  Well, our listenership is mostly young men in their kind of late twenties, early thirties, a lot of them recently married or trying to find a mate, just, you know, kind of getting into their childbearing years, if you will, the role as a partner and a father. So advice to your younger self on how to be a good partner.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  So I think one of the challenges that a lot of people run into is in a committed relationship, you sort of end up just nagging each other constantly to do things. And nobody likes it, and it's extremely frustrating. And at some point, my wife Allison and I sat down and said, you know, we need a weekly meeting.

• 53:16Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 53:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, you heard me right. This is not just something you need with your boss. I think it's something you need with your partner. And in that weekly meeting, we would sit down and talk about, you know, okay, here are the things I need you to do this week. Let's check in on, you know, on all the tasks that are slipping through the cracks. And it was a dedicated time where we each were able to express, hey, this is, this is something that might sound trivial to you, but it's actually really important to me. Like, I don't want the garbage can sitting out for three days. It's embarrassing and it's gross. And then, you know, instead of feeling like that's an interruption in the course of the week, and it's sort of a nuisance in the relationship, it becomes a chance to sit down and really think about, well, what can I do this week that my partner would

• 54:02Speaker 04

  really appreciate? So I've become a big fan of marriage meetings, and I was pleasantly surprised to discover there's, there's some research suggesting that when you do these kinds of check-ins about what can we do to support each other better, it actually improves the health of a relationship.

• 54:18Scott Galloway?

  Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and a bestselling author who explores the science of motivation, generosity, rethinking, and potential. He has been recognized as one of the world's 10 most influential management thinkers and has received distinguished scientific achievement awards from the American Psychological Association and the National Science Foundation. His latest book, Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things, is out now. I'm jealous of you, Adam. I find that you continue to just do incredible work and you're smart at getting it out there, and I- You know, my jealousy is, there's some things about it I don't like, but it mostly comes from a good place. And that is I admire what a positive impact you are having on the world.

• 55:01Scott Galloway?

  So keep on keeping on, brother.

• 55:04Speaker 04

  That's very kind of you, Scott. Well, I, I try not to do too much envy and jealousy, but we're all human.

• 55:10Scott Galloway?

  No, go on, Jesus Christ. Come on.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  No, but what I, what I want to do is say, I admire several things about you. One is, I love the fact that you're, you're just fearless when it comes to challenging people and being a little bit contrarian. I also really appreciate the fact that despite having, I think, a healthy ego, you're not afraid to be wrong and to admit you're wrong. And I think that is something that needs to be modeled dramatically more than it, it currently is. And finally, you manage to be interesting and funny on a whole range of topics, which is, you know, not an, not an easy task at all. So those are all things that I look up to. And yeah, maybe sometimes I envy them, but more often, I guess when I, when I feel envy,

• 55:56Speaker 04

  I look at that and say, well, okay, that means I want what you have. So instead of, you know, feeling like, ah, damn Scott Galloway, I hate that guy. You're like, okay, he's a role model for certain things that I want to work toward. And that, that gives me more to like than dislike, I think.

• 56:15Scott Galloway?

  I like it, Adam. Well, listen, I look forward to seeing you on the road and stay well.

• 56:19Speaker 04

  Same to you. Thanks for bringing me.

• 56:31Scott Galloway?

  Algebra of happiness, masculinity. So let's try and break down three basic legs of the masculinity stool. And I've been thinking a lot about this and this might be the wrong stool, but right now it's my, my stool. It's protector, provider and procreator. And I'm going to talk a little bit about procreator. What Dr. Attia said that struck me was kind of how his advice to young men would be to be a dad.

• 56:56Scott Galloway?

  And that is what it is to be a procreator is that ultimately you become a provider and you become responsible for the well being of someone else. And that's what it means to be a dad is that you put their interests ahead of yours. And this has a lot of wonderful benefits. First off, a lot of downsides. If you don't find the right partner, your life's going to be full of stress. It is very difficult to manage the demands and the logistics and the costs of kids without a really competent partner. But assuming you can find a competent partner, and part of that is being, I hate to use the word aggressive because it sounds unkind, but aggressive, putting yourself in social situations, introducing yourself to someone you might have a romantic or sexual interest in, texting someone, maybe you don't hear back from them and your ego's like, that's

• 57:41Scott Galloway?

  it, I'm not texting her again. Well, okay, give it a couple of weeks and text again. Who knows what's going on with her. Following up, being kind, trying to do thoughtful things, trying to, quite frankly, trying to romance a woman, holding her hand, taking that uncomfortable risk of initiating physical contact. This is what it means to be a procreator. And then when you have kids, ensuring that you're raising kids that are going to be more secure and loving than you. That's, at the end of the day, that is the fundamental box we have to check as fathers. And that is where I've brought some more forgiveness to my father. My dad, you know, wasn't an especially good father to me, but then I think about, well,

• 58:22Scott Galloway?

  okay, he was much better to me than his father was to him, which means he's checked the key box and what it means to be a procreator. The means to the ends, the means, economic security, money, having some influence, being good at something, that's all a means. The ends is, in my view, having a group of people who love you, but more importantly, you can love immensely. And you will never love anything as immensely as kids. And the way I describe it is Anne Rice used to write these novels about vampires, and vampires could never climax, they could never orgasm. So they were kind of sexaholics because they never got to a point of satisfaction. And I feel a little bit about my life pre-kids that way.

• 59:07Scott Galloway?

  And that is, no matter how much money I had, I always wanted more. I was never really satisfied. And the only time I've ever felt sated, the only time I've ever felt, okay, this is it, this is enough, is on rare occasions when I'm with my boys. And I'll be at a soccer match and they go crazy after a goal, or they're arguing with each other, which I find kind of funny most of the time. Or they just instinctively jump on the couch and throw their legs over mine. And we have our dogs there and my kids seem happy and secure and healthy. It's the only time, it's the only time on this planet where I felt, okay, I get it, I get it, this is enough.

• 59:49Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Caroline Shageran. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show.

• 1:00:14Scott Galloway?

  Oh, my gosh. Oh, my goodness. Now that's great coffee. I'm sorry, go ahead.

• 1:00:21Speaker 06

  We just moved into our new house and I didn't realize just how close we were to the neighbors. That's when my friend told me about blinds.com.

• 1:00:29Speaker 05

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• 1:00:51Speaker 03

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