How to Set Goals and Create Healthy Habits in 2025

In this special New Year's episode of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck podcast, we dive into the perennial challenge of making meaningful changes in our lives. Rather than falling into the typical "new year, new you" trap that leads most people to abandon their resolutions by February, Drew and I explore a different approach to personal transformation. We share our own struggles with perfectionism, control, and finding purpose. We also dig into some research about how evolution may have shaped our sense of purpose, the science of habit formation, and offer practical strategies for making lasting changes. Whether you're setting goals for the new year or just trying to build better habits, this episode will help you approach personal growth with more wisdom and less pressure in 2025. Enjoy. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction: New Year, New You... Again 00:02:18 Last Year's Resolutions: How Did We Do? 00:03:39 The Fuck of the Year: Drew's Battle with Perfectionism 00:06:24 Making Abstract Goals Concrete: The Action Plan 00:11:52 Mark's Fuck of the Year: Letting Go of Control 00:14:58 The Terror of Transformation: Loss Aversion and Career Evolution 00:17:43 Team Safe Words and Delegation Struggles 00:20:17 Brilliant or Bullshit: Evolution Gave Us Purpose 00:26:26 The Status Paradox and Religious Communities 00:33:09 Purpose Isn't Always Pleasant: The Ethics Question 00:34:30 The Verdict: Small Improvements Beat Big Dreams 00:36:46 Listener Question: Why Are Bad Habits So Easy? 00:39:41 The Habit Loop: Modifying Cues and Adding Friction 00:43:42 Treating Symptoms vs. Root Causes: The Emotional Triggers 00:47:57 The Comfort Zone Problem and Meta Emotions 00:51:40 Outro: Wisdom of the Week Fail ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson Theme Song: Icarus Lives by @Periphery , used with permission from Periphery.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  Well, it's that time of year again, Drew. You know what time it is?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  What time is it?

• 0:05Mark Manson?

  It is, it is time. It is that time that we do every roughly 365 days where we arbitrarily decide that this is the time that we're finally going to change something about ourselves. And then we sit and we obsess and we get really excited and we write down a bunch of goals. And then by February, we were back to snacking on the couch and watching Love is Blind reruns.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 0:28Mark Manson?

  Maybe I'm just speaking for myself. I don't know about you.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  That checks out, pretty much.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  It's the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck Podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 0:41Mark Manson?

  Are you ready for this time of year? Are you excited for this yet another New Year, New You special?

• 0:46Speaker 01

  I do like a fresh start. I do. And maybe that's just because of the novelty of it or whatever, but I do appreciate the fresh starts.

• 0:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:54Mark Manson?

  I will say my evolution with New Years or New Year, New You, it's changed. You know, when I was younger, I was very cynical about it. I was like, this is stupid. You should be able to change your life any time of the year. You don't need a specific date. But I do think there is some, some sort of value to the ritual of, hey, first week of January, let's sit down, assess your life. What's working? What's not? I think that's the whole reason we have holidays, right? Is that they are reminders for us to check in on certain things or topics about ourselves. So I, in my older age, I've mellowed a bit and I've, I've come around to it.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Okay, good. Good. Well, that's good because it's January 1st.

• 1:37Mark Manson?

  And, and we have to do another fucking New Year, New You.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  I think it was you at one point, you compared this, like the self-help industry, this is like our Christmas album or something like that, right? Like you have to do something on January 1st.

• 1:49Mark Manson?

  It is impossible not to because it's just, it's especially now that I've been in this industry for like 16 years, like I'm like, oh, it's another January 1st. Oh God, we need to like, what are we going to promote this year? What's our new like PDF or special or course or whatever? Like every year it's something, right?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:07Mark Manson?

  So this year you guys get a podcast.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  No longer a blog post or anything like that.

• 2:13Mark Manson?

  Which is, which is the sack of coal equivalent of the, uh.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  The sack of coal equivalent?

• 2:19Mark Manson?

  I mean, it's just a podcast. I mean, people are probably gonna listen to 20 different New Year's podcasts.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  True.

• 2:25Mark Manson?

  Uh, you know, trying to set their goals or anything. So we'll, we'll do our part.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:31Mark Manson?

  We will, uh, we will check in. You know, last year you and I made New Year's resolutions. And then we did a check in in June. I'm curious. Yours was sleep better.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41Mark Manson?

  You were currently underslept.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  I am underslept. Honestly, the year went pretty well. Last night did not go well. So if we, if we step back, the, for, take the forest for the trees. I, I have improved my sleep habits.

• 2:53Mark Manson?

  Well, I set a goal to run a marathon and I quit by March. So.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Done by March. Yeah.

• 2:58Mark Manson?

  I think I was, I was like the, the typical, uh, New Year's resolution, uh, candidate for the last year. But I like what we're doing this year. So what we're doing today is actually, I've never been a huge New Year resolution guy.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Same.

• 3:13Mark Manson?

  Longtime listeners and readers know, I, I think most of the value of goals is just that they get you to do something. It's like the goal itself isn't really that important. So it won't surprise people that I've never been huge on big New Year's resolutions. What I've always liked to do is I've liked to set a theme for the year of like, this year I'm focusing on X. And to focus on X, these are like the two or three modest changes or goals that I have throughout the year. So today, instead of doing fuck of the week, we're doing fuck of the year.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  The fuck of the year.

• 3:45Mark Manson?

  What is our fuck of the year? What is, what is either the thing that we want to give more fucks about or give fewer fucks about and why? And then we'll talk about what the repercussions of those things are. So, so do you want to kick us off?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I can kick this off. Yeah.

• 3:58Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Do this.

• 3:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Mine is, uh, perfectionism.

• 4:01Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  And this is a lifelong battle. And 2025 is my year to finally slay this dragon, I think.

• 4:08Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  I think.

• 4:09Mark Manson?

  How are you gonna go about doing that?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Well, um, first of all, what I did is I kind of took an inventory of like how much, how perfectionism is kind of like fucking up my life. Or there's areas where I'm like, I don't really pay attention to, but I'm like, if you weren't so perfectionist about this, you'd probably do a little bit better on that.

• 4:25Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  So I kind of took an inventory first of that.

• 4:27Mark Manson?

  What are some of those things?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, the big one I've noticed over years and years now is that perfectionism just leads to more paralysis around taking any sort of action for me. I have that kind of perfection. There's a few different flavors of perfectionism. The one I have is, uh, uh, kind of leads to that anyway. And when you want everything to be perfect, you just don't even start on things sometimes. Or you get a little bit started on them and then you're just like, oh, I gotta wait and let this like be a little bit more perfect in my life. And that's just, I can't keep doing that.

• 4:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Are you, cause you, you end up spinning your wheels or I got like 10 projects that I start that I don't finish.

• 5:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  That sort of thing. So, yeah, that's a big one.

• 5:05Mark Manson?

  So what's your, what's your plan of attack here? What, what is, what, what are you?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Well.

• 5:10Mark Manson?

  Tangibly gonna change?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so the, the thing I've learned, especially if I'm like doing this podcast is like, how, how like, you just don't, you, you can't get it perfect. You won't get it perfect. And so accepting, being more accepting around that and just trying more things and like failing in public. That's kind of, that's kind of going to be a big part of this, I think too, is just be like.

• 5:31Mark Manson?

  Well, you've done plenty of that.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Done plenty of that, done plenty of that. But just being a little bit more open about things with people too, and just be like, hey, I'm planning on doing this. And knowing that, I mean, I, not even for the social pressure. I think a lot of people do that for like, oh, it's gonna be social pressure, but just be like, letting people kind of knock in on some more of like my plans. Cause I'm, I, I usually keep pretty private about things.

• 5:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Because of the fear of like, oh, if I tell somebody this and I don't do it, it's gonna look really bad and it'll be imperfect, you know?

• 5:58Mark Manson?

  Is there a fear of criticism or judgment as well?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Yeah.

• 6:01Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, yeah, I think that's a big part of my perfectionism too.

• 6:04Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  I fear that. Yeah.

• 6:05Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:06Mark Manson?

  So.

• 6:08Mark Manson?

  Being more open about plans, being more okay with things not going great. Like, how are you gonna keep yourself accountable on this stuff?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was what I was gonna ask you about this, because this is kind of wishy washy, a little bit like abstract.

• 6:19Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  How do you take something that is more abstract like that and you have this? I mean, just in general, what we're doing here is more.

• 6:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  We're saying, we're not gonna set resolutions, we're gonna have these themes. Well, that's pretty abstract, so how do we make that more concrete?

• 6:32Mark Manson?

  Well, I think, I think it's useful, when I approach this stuff, I always like, think of the theme or the issue that you want to attack. Perfectionism is in your case, right? And it's like, the thing about stuff like this as well is, you've struggled with perfectionism your entire life. You're not gonna get rid of it in a year.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:50Mark Manson?

  Like, the place you wanna get to it is where it's manageable. And so, the goal almost isn't necessarily to get rid of perfectionism, it's to develop tools and habits and behaviors that allow you to manage your own perfectionism. So what I would look for is, you know, identify common situations where perfectionism fucks you over. And then, develop a plan of action of like, okay, in that situation in the future, or this year, I'm gonna do this other thing instead, right? So, you know, broadcasting decisions. I would get very, very clear on like, okay, where that has tripped you up in the past?

• 7:33Mark Manson?

  And where you've been afraid to kind of express your plans, or your ambitions, or your motivations. Like, get really clear on, I'm gonna share this with people in this context. So, before I do this sort of thing, I'm going to shoot a message to my friends, or my family, or my siblings, or whatever, and be like, hey, this is what I have planned. And make that commitment to include that the next time these situations come up, essentially.

• 8:06Mark Manson?

  And I think it's probably useful to find like two or three situations like that and create those very tangible action plans. Because yeah, if you kind of just go through the year all wishy washy of like, I want to be less perfectionist than, as we all know, it kind of, you kind of don't really change. So you have to like whittle it down to the actual behaviors that you're going to modify. And again, I think the goal shouldn't be to get rid of the perfectionism. It should be to find courses of action that help mitigate or compensate for the perfectionism.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, the outcomes of it. Yeah.

• 8:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

• 8:43Mark Manson?

  Like damage control.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:44Mark Manson?

  Mostly. So I'll create an example and I don't think you have a problem with this, but let's say, let's say that you were struggling with perfectionism like within our, our business, the podcast, right? It's like every time I ask you for a podcast outline, it shows like it's crickets, like nothing shows up and it's because you're just obsessing over all this stuff. And let's say that that was a consistent problem. What I would do is I would, I would create a, like an agreement with yourself or even communicate it to me and be like, I'm, I'm going to sit, when I think it's 75% done, I just have to send it to Mark, no matter what. And communicate it, say like, hey, heads up, this is only 75% done, but this is where I'm

• 9:29Mark Manson?

  at, this is the direction I'm heading. And that's just an example, you know? You could apply it to a lot of other things too. Like, I'm trying to think, like if you're a perfectionist about, uh, oh shit, now I'm blanking. Like what another perfectionist, what's another area that it fucks you up?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I think any sort of like personal project outside of work right now that I'm like, ah, I should like start to, I don't know, a newsletter or something like that. I'm just sad on my, just like, no, I'm not going to do that. You know?

• 9:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  And for, for.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  The procrastination around it is palpable too. It's just like, oh, this hurts and I just need to stop thinking about it. So I avoid it that way. Yeah. So I don't know, personal, like more personal projects that have some sort of, or what at least what I see as like a big component of my self-worth wrapped up in them. For whatever reason, though, like with work, and I think part of it is just working alongside you where you're pushing it along. You're like, no, let's go, let's go, let's get this going. So that helps accountability wise for me. I need that kind of like external accountability, I think.

• 10:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Do you have other people in your life that are like that? Like, so for instance, we've talked about this before, how I'm like an anti-perfectionist. I am just like, fuck it, ship it, whatever. It's a mess. Let's, let's figure out how to fix it as like, let's build the ship as we, as we sail. And it's funny because I've found that I naturally end up with a lot of perfectionists around me.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  You do. Yeah.

• 10:56Mark Manson?

  But it's funny because it works both ways, right? Like it's, it's like I help the perfectionists in my life because I just like force them to ship. And the perfectionists help me because they help me like slow down and be like, whoa, wait, we could probably fix this thing really quickly. Or well, maybe actually you want to like,

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:17Mark Manson?

  address that before you go any further. Like, I know that's, it's been true in my work career, but it's also like in my personal life. Like my wife's a huge perfectionist and I see that dynamic play out there as well. Do you have people in other areas of your life that are like that?

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. There's, there's, I mean, I have a pretty supportive network of people who, you know, they would support me either way and, and offer good criticism too, I think at the same time. So yeah, leaning on that might be a big thing for me.

• 11:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Seeking those people out and then like really leveraging them as well. My fuck of the year is related. You'll get a kick out of this. I know. So I'm, I am very good at, you can almost look at not giving a fuck in like two different dimensions. The first one is, is kind of the classic, like not worrying about the things that don't really matter to you. And I think I'm excellent at that. Like there's a handful of things that I care about in my life. And I'm really good at focusing on those and caring a lot about them. And then the things that are not within that small little sphere. It's kind of dead to me. Like, I don't really, I don't lose any sleep over it.

• 12:29Mark Manson?

  Within that sphere, I am definitely, and you have experienced this directly, within the sphere of the things I give a fuck about, I think I'm a little bit obsessive and a little bit of a control freak.

• 12:44Mark Manson?

  I knew, I knew you'd enjoy this. I knew you'd, you'd, you'd, you'd really get it. I'll let you finish. You're the perfect co-host for this episode. And, as you know, so the team's growing. There's a lot more people on the team, which means I need to like delegate and trust people, like get things done and not meddle as much. But also, like, as listeners are going to discover, we're doing a lot of new things this year. Like, my business is going to change a lot over the next six to eight months. And in many ways, by 2026, like, my career is going to look very different than it does today.

• 13:23Mark Manson?

  And that's terrifying. I am definitely discovering that I, there's a certain amount that I just need to let go and let it happen. Like, try not to, part of this too is, is controlling the audience's perception of me. Like, I'm, I think I've been a little bit too worried over the years of like, wow, we can't really do that because that's like not a Mark Manson thing and it doesn't really fit with the brand. And, you know, it's like all these people, they don't want to hear that. Like, I've worried a little bit too much about that, or maybe it wasn't too much. But I think at this point in my career, I'm older, you know, the books are six, eight years old. It's time to move on to another phase of my career.

• 14:08Mark Manson?

  And I think that moving on or that transition into like whatever the next version of my career is, it means letting go. It's like, okay, a large percentage of my fans, my audience are gonna hate the next thing I do. I need to live with that and not try to like protect it and coddle everything and you know, go the same way that it's always gone. Because I think in a creative field, that's just, that's death. You know, if you're not evolving and changing. So it's, it's, I see it on two fronts. I see it as the, as the team grows and expands, I need to relinquish a little bit of control and, and trust some of you guys to, you know, handle it and, and not meddle in everything. And then, but also

• 14:53Mark Manson?

  as I move into this next phase of my career, not worry so much that not everything is gonna be loved or adored by all, all the people.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  You, you said it's terrifying. What about it is terrifying?

• 15:09Mark Manson?

  It's, it's the loss aversion. Like it's, it's.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 15:13Mark Manson?

  It is, it feels good to, uh, to create something and put it out there and have a lot of people like it. It feels really good to get all that attention and, you know, people get really excited over it. The feeling of, let's, let's say the feeling of pleasing 10,000 people is like, it's a very nice feeling. The feeling of pissing off 10,000 people is like five times worse.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, at least.

• 15:40Mark Manson?

  It feels five times worse than pleasing 10,000 people feels good. And so I think what happens with people like me who have been doing what they do for a very long time and have built a very large audience, kind of doing the same sort of thing for a long time, is you, you get complacent, right? It's like, well, I can just, it's kind of like the rock band that just keeps playing the same hit.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  DCDC.

• 16:04Mark Manson?

  From, yeah, from like 1989.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:06Mark Manson?

  So it, it, it's safe and you know it's gonna be a crowd pleaser, but you're also. It's not all, it's also not as creatively satisfying.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:17Mark Manson?

  And.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  I think you have that personality for that, which is like, you need to keep trying new things and doing different things.

• 16:23Mark Manson?

  I get bored.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  And pissing people off, too.

• 16:25Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, that's part of it.

• 16:27Mark Manson?

  I get bored easily, and I've definitely felt there's been a really strong tension in my career, probably the last three, four, five years of like, I want to do something new. I want to do something different. I want to try something, something novel. But, man, if I just keep churning out the fucks, the whole not give a fuck thing, like, it's just, it's just safe and comfortable and everybody likes it and it's what people know me for. And it's been hard to leave that comfort zone. It's become a comfort zone.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:04Mark Manson?

  Which is odd, because I think the reason it did so well 10 years ago is because it was outside of everybody's comfort zone.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Comfortable, yeah.

• 17:11Mark Manson?

  Right? And now it is the comfort zone. And so now I need to like, push outside of the comfort zone again.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:17Mark Manson?

  Which means trying new things and maybe doing some things that, that people don't love as much, which my goal this year is to let go of control.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, I think we can help keep you accountable then, too.

• 17:28Mark Manson?

  Uh oh.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  I just thought of something. We should have a safe word, I think.

• 17:32Mark Manson?

  A safe word?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  For when Mark is being too controlling.

• 17:35Mark Manson?

  A team safe word.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I don't know, banana or whatever, you know, like, I don't know, something like that, and we can call you out on that.

• 17:43Mark Manson?

  Sure. I'm in.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:45Mark Manson?

  I'm in.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  We'll come up with something.

• 17:47Mark Manson?

  Okay. I'm nervous just talking about this. I've like, my palms are sweating.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Is it really? It's that extent right now, yeah? Yeah. I didn't, I mean, I didn't realize up until like, probably the last couple of years of how much of that, because when it was just small, it was just a few of us.

• 18:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  You know, we all kind of had our own little area and you could kind of pull the strings from wherever you needed to.

• 18:08Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's a very different beast now.

• 18:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah, when it was just three or four of us, it's easy, because it's just. It's like all of us talked about everything. So it didn't feel intrusive. It didn't feel taxing on me. You know, now we have 12, 13 people. So if I'm worrying about every, if I'm hearing about every little problem that's going on with all 12 or 13 people, I will get nothing else done the entire day.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Mark Manson?

  And I will be stressed the entire day. Right? So it's, there have to be boundaries. And at some point, it's like, hey, this is your problem, or this is her problem, or this is that guy's problem. It's not my problem. It only becomes my problem if it like clears certain thresholds.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:53Mark Manson?

  You know, that it's worth bringing to my attention. So some of that is just like business management stuff. But it's, I think the, the emotional experience and the thing that I'm working on is just the, the letting go of control. It's like, you know, I don't get to always determine what the outcome is in everything in my life. And this is true, by the way, and other, like other things that I care about in my life, like I also could probably do with.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Backing off a little?

• 19:24Mark Manson?

  Backing off a little. Yeah, like I'm, I'm just all in or all out. Okay, that's just my personality.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:30Mark Manson?

  I'm, it's, I don't, I have no chill mode.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  We'll see how this one goes. You, I just, from my perspective, you've hired a very competent team. Uh, there's, I don't think there's anybody on the team who can't handle.

• 19:46Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  What you've assigned them to do in any way.

• 19:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah, you're a little biased, but.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  That's true. That's true. Also, um, we need to talk about a pay raise.

• 19:56Mark Manson?

  Oh God, here it comes. Here it comes.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  No, no, we're good. Um, I, I, okay. I'm excited to see how this goes.

• 20:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Uh, yeah. So there we go. All right, we'll be right back.

• 20:15Mark Manson?

  All right, we're back with another addition of Brilliant or Bullshit. What are we talking about today?

• 20:20Speaker 01

  This one, Mark, you're gonna have to keep me on the rails today, all right?

• 20:23Mark Manson?

  Oh, boy.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Evolution gave us our purpose in life. Did evolution give us our purpose in life?

• 20:29Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  So there's this-

• 20:30Mark Manson?

  Tell me more.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  There's this study. It's called Surviving and Thriving: The Fundamental Social Motives Provide Purpose in Life. It's by these two researchers out of Arizona State. Essentially, what they do first, let's first provide a definition, a nerdy psychological definition of-

• 20:46Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  -purpose in life.

• 20:47Mark Manson?

  Please.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Because that's important here. Purpose in life, as psychologists define it, is a sense that one has direction, meaning, and significance in their life.

• 20:55Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Some sort of, okay, it involves long-term goals. Basically, like, you have direction in your life, essentially, is what it is. Now, where we've typically, in the past, derived meaning, purpose in our lives is from outer sources, like, you know, the divine religion, that sort of thing. But what they say is that actually, evolution probably gave us the pathway for having a purpose in our life.

• 21:20Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Logically, right? From a general evolutionary perspective, okay, you should actually have some sense of well-being in your life if you are doing things that would increase your quote-unquote reproductive fitness, right?

• 21:35Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Like, passing your genes on to the next.

• 21:36Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  And that can involve, and that's not just, like, sex, you know, or anything like that, but that can involve relationships, anything. Direct ways of doing that, too, helping other people-

• 21:45Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  -status in your life, gaining social status in some way, affiliating with other people to keep you safe in a group, that sort of thing.

• 21:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  That, they say, should drive purpose in life.

• 21:55Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  But nobody's ever really tested this before, and so they tested it out.

• 21:58Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  All right? And-

• 21:59Mark Manson?

  How did they test it?

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, the methods of this, it's a kind of an exploratory study.

• 22:04Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Okay? The methods of this study, I'm gonna say are like, I'm not gonna call them bullshit, because I think they knew that they're like, okay, this is exploratory, and we're kind of like, figuring this out. Basically, they have people come in, and they're like, okay, write about different things in your life, and they give them different inventories, how much purpose do you feel in your life?

• 22:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  In this area, that area, write about the things that- You think would give you more purpose or meaning in your life. And then they kind of analyze those, put them into buckets and figure out what people are.

• 22:33Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Okay, so it is pretty subjective by a lot of terms in a lot of ways.

• 22:39Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  But I think it's getting, they're starting to get at something. This is kind of the foundational exploratory research they have to do in order to get to the next stage.

• 22:48Mark Manson?

  I, oh, man, I have really like mixed feelings about this.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, well, hold on, hold on, okay. So.

• 22:56Mark Manson?

  I think it's a little both, but keep going.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Probably, probably. That's what we always do. We punt all the time, come on, but.

• 23:04Mark Manson?

  All right, I can take the bullshit route. But finish, finish.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  So the specific social motives, what they're calling social motives, which are these evolved drives that we have in social settings, they're saying that they've, they, they've found. Self-protection, just like keeping yourself safe in a physical environment. Avoiding disease. Made acquisition.

• 23:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  You know, finding somebody to get naked with, right?

• 23:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Mate retention, so if you're already in a relationship, retaining like.

• 23:31Mark Manson?

  Keeping them around.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, the relationship maintenance. What they call affiliation, basically just social connection, having friend group, that sort of thing. Kin care, so caring either for children or just other people in your family. And then the last one is status too, achieving some sort of social standing or respect within a social hierarchy.

• 23:48Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  So they found evidence for all of those things. If you, if you engage in behaviors that increase those in your life, you have a higher sense of a more, an increased sense of purpose in your life and direction. You have direction in your life.

• 24:02Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  By engaging in these types of behaviors.

• 24:05Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  And we can pick apart one of those. There's one in particular I want to dive into with, but first let me get your reaction to some of them.

• 24:10Mark Manson?

  I, I feel like this is so, and there's a lot of particularly evolutionary psychology. You see this a lot.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  I think I know where you're going with this.

• 24:19Mark Manson?

  There's a lot of circular, like thinly veiled circular reasoning that happens, which is, in this case, it's essentially like, hey, we have this term, purpose. We're going to define it as feeling a sense of direction or feeling like there's something in our future that's going to make us feel good or be happy. So let's take all the things that people feel is in their future is going to make them feel happy. Let's measure those things. Oh, my God, look, it correlates with purpose.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:43Mark Manson?

  The way we decided to define our key metric, like it, it feels like they're just, it's like.

• 24:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's it's a little bit masturbatory intellectually, you know, like it's but

• 25:01Mark Manson?

  that said, I do, it makes sense to me that a sense of purpose, you know, much like pleasure, much like happiness, like I, these are all kind of psychological levers or evolutionary levers that we probably evolved to help us do behaviors and actions that help our reproductive status. It's like it is by definition, it makes sense. So I think there's a little bit of voodoo going. I'm not, the irony here is I think I agree with their hypothesis. I agree that like a sense of purpose is probably something that we evolved to get us to do things to increase our survival and our reproduction.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Well, okay, but let's take that point right there. Okay. What you what you agree with. Yes. Okay. And I think the the kind of the conclusion of the study they make is that, or at least one that I took away was, we often have these like, oh, I need to find my purpose in life. And I need to go out and I need to some grand thing. I need to be a writer. I need to be an artist. That kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And they're saying, actually, what you need for direction and purpose in your life is to like, do the things that humans do.

• 26:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Like, like, the three biggest ones they found too, but the three strongest relationships they found too, were affiliation. So friends and and social relationships. Yeah. Working on those. Kin care, what they call kin care. So taking care of people in your family or, you know, whatever you consider your family necessarily. The last one was status too, actually, which I found interesting. People actually derive some sort of sense of well being from stat, like seeking and and status within their social groups.

• 26:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Interestingly, though, they they're like, okay, there's other, there's other research out there saying when you seek status, this doesn't work. It actually ends up with a lot of bad outcomes, negative outcomes in life. But what they found was it's more like seeking social status within your social hierarchy in socially positive ways.

• 27:00Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  All right. So like one, one, what are you laughing at?

• 27:07Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, when I'm saying it out loud, sure, it sounds really obvious. But I think, again, the larger point is, is that there's like these really basic things that I think we can turn to. You don't have to like change the goddamn world.

• 27:21Mark Manson?

  So as you know, I totally agree with that, that I think people overlook, especially in this day and age. People, and I think this would be a nice explanation of like, why a sense of a lack of of purpose seems to be epidemic at the moment. And I think it's because people just overestimate how high the bar is to feel a sense of purpose, which 100% with you there. Absolutely. It's, it's a sense of purpose is is not found, it's generated. They're just doing a bunch of basic things that improve your life one step at a time. Hanging out with friends and family, getting a little bit better at your job, getting a little bit healthier, you know, it's, it's all incremental improvements.

• 28:03Mark Manson?

  So that I'm with you there. Like dispelling that kind of illusion of, of what purpose is. But yeah, I guess, I guess it's one of those, I'm just kind of like having this like, well, so what? Like, obviously, right?

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe we got a reaction to Robert Greene's episode. Remember Robert Greene's episode where he talks about your life task?

• 28:30Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  And there were some, there were some reactions in the comments and people email in and saying, well, that would be really nice to, you know, usually the language they would use is, that'd be really nice to pursue my passion.

• 28:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  But right now, you know, I'm just trying to put food on the table or something like that.

• 28:46Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Right? And I mean, I, my response is, he didn't say what you're like, you need to find your passion. He said, you need to find your life's task.

• 28:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Sometimes your life task also, it's given to you. You don't get to choose it.

• 29:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah, you don't necessarily like it all the time.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Right. And so if you, if you are somebody who is struggling financially or whatever it is, that's like a safety issue, you need to take care of, that is your life's task at that moment. It's not about your passion.

• 29:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  It's about security, like having some sort of security, which is a basic need that we all have.

• 29:18Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  You know, and it slips into like Maslow's hierarchy of needs and all that kind of thing. But the larger point, I think, is that there are really just some of these basic. Human drives that we have to fulfill. And it's not, I don't, it's just not this pie in the sky. We need to all find our quote unquote, passion.

• 29:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I, I definitely think the passion thing gets overrated. I think people can like overestimate.

• 29:45Mark Manson?

  What is required to feel a sense of purpose in their lives? I have a, okay, I have a little bit of a harebrained theory. You mentioned religion, how people traditionally would find purpose through religion. I've got a little bit. I made this argument in my second book. I, I think it still holds. So we were talking about purpose, a feeling of purpose is ultimately feeling a sense of direction. Feeling a sense of things are improving in some way, that your action is bearing fruit in the future in some shape or form. In my second book, I described it as hope, like a vision of a better future that is tangible and possible for yourself. For most of human history, most people's actions had absolutely no bearing on the quality of their own future. There were no opportunities. Things didn't really get better. There was no economic growth.

• 30:30Mark Manson?

  There was no job growth. There was no, like, like people were hungry and impoverished and insecure their entire lives and nothing changed that, no matter what they did. Which is why you needed religion to provide a vision of a positive or better future. Right? It's like, your whole life is shit. If you're like a random peasant in say, the ninth century, right? Your entire life is shit and nothing you say or do is ever going to improve the fact that it's shit. But if you believe in this religion, the religion offers you promises and visions of a better future, in this case, an afterlife.

• 31:12Mark Manson?

  And as long as you stay focused on that religion, that, that positive afterlife is guaranteed to you. And so it makes sense that from that, it drives a lot of sense of direction and purpose and fulfillment.

• 31:30Mark Manson?

  These days, I think there's probably still a little bit of that, you know, like religion correlates very strongly with life satisfaction and psychological well-being and all that. There might be, still be some of that leftover. These days, I think the reason religion probably correlates so well with all these like psychological outcomes is because of what this paper is saying, is that generally, people who are religious and they're involved in their local religious communities, they have a strong network of friends, they feel like they're part of a community, they've got a little bit of social status among that community, they are able to meet mates, they're able to maintain those

• 32:14Mark Manson?

  relationships. It's like all these basic nuts and bolts things that people struggle with in the 21st century. Old school religious communities actually do those things very, very well.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  There's even like, you know, I guess dogma around health and, you know, taking care of being safe and just in your physical environment too.

• 32:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah. But I do think, I mean, the point you make about how purpose isn't necessarily, and I guess this is why it's a useful metric aside from just like happiness or fulfillment or something, but like, purpose isn't always pleasant. It's not always fun. It's not, even the status thing, like I kind of smirked at that caveat about like, well, positive social status, I think that's bullshit. I think it's just social status. Like, it's, you can feel a great sense of purpose from building up your own social status to the detriment of others. Like, that's, purpose doesn't have to be a pro-social thing all the time. It can be, but it doesn't have to be, right? Like, you can feel a lot of

• 33:16Mark Manson?

  purpose, you know, trying to earn a million bucks and buy yourself a mansion or something. Like, there are a lot of people who derive a lot of purpose out of materialistic things like that. So, like, all those things, like happiness as well, you know, you can be happy doing terrible shit. So, you know, the happiness, purpose, like, they aren't necessarily good in and of themselves. They are... Psychological tools that you need to leverage one way or the other.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:44Mark Manson?

  Ethics is another question, in my opinion.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:47Mark Manson?

  Anyway, sorry for shitting on this.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:49Mark Manson?

  Sorry for shitting on the circularity of the definitions, but it just like, I don't know. Like, I've just read so many evolutionary psych things over the years. And it's like, we're, we have an evolutionary mandate to behave in X, Y, Z fashion. So we're gonna take, uh, we're gonna take this term and we're gonna define it as pursuing X, Y, Z. Oh, my God, look, it all correlates to each other. I'm like, well, yeah, of course it does.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 34:15Mark Manson?

  Cause we're all just kinda theorizing here.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  That's true. It is, it's very much like abstract in the mind. You can run these experiments in your own head and come to whatever conclusion you want. I do, I do agree with that.

• 34:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  The larger point I think I wanted to make was in this new year, when you're going out and you're setting goals and you're trying to find some sort of direction in your life.

• 34:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  It's probably right in front of you. It's not, you don't need to go out and, you know, reinvent the wheel here. We, we, you have it right in front of you.

• 34:43Mark Manson?

  Small incremental improvements will take you much further than.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And maybe that's cheesy, but I think it's, you know.

• 34:50Mark Manson?

  It's true. I mean, it's, it's boring, so it gets overlooked.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:54Mark Manson?

  It's not, it's not the big sexy, you know, uh, complete life makeover that people dream about or that you see on television, but it's, you know, those, those small 1%, 2% improvements each month.

• 35:08Mark Manson?

  That's, that's the real shit.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll say too, okay, that the, the whole, the status thing. The one thing that kinda clicked for me in this was that, um, I do this in my, uh, friend group and my social group that I have, um, and I've talked about this before, is my, my status is gained through, through helping. Like I, I virtue signal before that I'm so helpful, you know, with my friends and whatever. But like, I, I've noticed that and I think that is within my like friend group, like I'm the helpful one, you know? I'll be there for you, that kind of thing. Everybody else has their own thing too. So, and it's not really a hierarchy. It's just everybody has their own little status thing that they do and that's mine.

• 35:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I make my friends beg and grovel. For my.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  For your attention and help.

• 35:53Mark Manson?

  For my attention, yes, I withhold it.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:55Mark Manson?

  Uh, I psychologically, no, I don't.

• 36:01Mark Manson?

  Where do we land on that? Bullshit, brilliant.

• 36:06Mark Manson?

  It was okay.

• 36:08Mark Manson?

  We should have a third option. Brilliant bullshit or it's okay?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  I like the, I mean, I, I, I guess I like the, the idea of it. I like the content of it. I like the general thrust of it. I understand the, the nuances where it is getting a little bit circular or could be circular. Yeah.

• 36:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  That's a little bit bullshit.

• 36:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  We punted once again.

• 36:32Mark Manson?

  So it was a little bit of both.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:33Mark Manson?

  Isn't everything a little bit of both brilliant and bullshit?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 36:37Mark Manson?

  Okay, we'll be right back.

• 36:44Mark Manson?

  All right, we're back. Listener question time. What are we talking about today?

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're talking about habits, creating good habits. Kind of on theme for the new year here.

• 36:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  And it's a fairly basic question that I think has a fairly complicated answer. Why is it so difficult to create good habits and do them on a regular basis? But so easy to fall into bad habits and create more of them in a very short space of time?

• 37:07Mark Manson?

  Well, it is a perennial question. I think it's simply because most good habits are short term not fun and long term very satisfying. And most bad habits are short term fun and long term very unsatisfying. That's kind of what makes them both good and bad habits.

• 37:26Mark Manson?

  And ultimately, I think this is just a struggle, a universal struggle of every human on this planet of trying to balance your short term pleasure and satisfaction with your long term interests and, and, and health and better judgment. And it's something that I think we all suck at initially. And it's something we all have to learn as we go through our lives and get better at as we go through our lives. I don't think anybody has it completely like nails it every single time. So that's the why.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:02Mark Manson?

  I guess the next question is the how.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So to dwell on that for just a second, that there's, you know, in habit science, there's like the habit loop, right?

• 38:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  You have the cue, then you have the behavior, then you have the reward.

• 38:14Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  That's Charles Duhigg did that in his book on habits and then James Clear kind of elaborated on that for sure. And what you're saying is there's this tension between immediate and long-term benefits.

• 38:24Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  And the reward part of that cue behavior reward with bad habits so, so often comes almost immediately. So it's reinforced, it's much more easily reinforced for us. Whereas the benefits of good habits are usually long-term, you know?

• 38:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Eating, healthy, exercise, sleep, all of that is often delayed and so we don't see that. So yeah, the how part, that's the real question. How do we, how do we shift that? Do we shift that time curve maybe? Do we, I, I've seen some suggestions like having a relationship with your future self, like being,

• 38:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  like that sort of thing. Is there? Is there anything to that for you? I don't know.

• 39:07Mark Manson?

  I, I, not really. Like, I don't think about that. In that context, I don't think about future and past Mark a whole lot.

• 39:17Mark Manson?

  I mean, for me, and again, this is Duhigg and Clear land on this as well. Like the easiest modification you can make in that loop is the cue, right? It's like just remove the cues as much as possible. So like, let's say you, you're a midnight snacker, right? Like the easiest thing to, to do is to just get rid of the snacks in your house.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:38Mark Manson?

  Like it removes that cue.

• 39:41Mark Manson?

  You can also figure out like, what is it that makes you hungry? Or like, what, what is the, the impulse or the emotion that makes you want to snack at a certain time each day? Maybe it's because you're, you're eating too big of a dinner and too light of a lunch. And maybe if you eat a larger lunch and a smaller dinner, like it fixes that, that craving in the middle of the night. Like, so figuring out like, what are the impulses that are driving the bad behavior is, in my opinion, the most, most of it, right? Like. For me, the willpower is not really a factor as much. Or if you are relying on willpower, then you've probably lost. It's just, yeah, it's you're delaying the inevitable.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, there has to be some sort of like change you have to make there because just thinking about this stuff doesn't work, obviously, right? Like, like you mentioned the environmental stuff. I know for me, like cleaning up my diet was just like, it was removing, I just, when I grocery shop, I don't buy junk. Or I actually like do a lot of delivery and pickup now, so I'm not even in the store and don't grab those. Because it, you know, you're, you're not fighting the, the, the diet, uh, challenge at the, at the refrigerator door. Then you, you know, you do it way ahead of time.

• 40:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah, if you're relying on your own decision making constantly, plan beforehand so that you're just not triggered in the first place, I guess.

• 41:00Mark Manson?

  I'm trying to think like, what else is there?

• 41:05Mark Manson?

  I'm blanking right now.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Um, with that, I recently, so this is, um, I've always been proud, a proud non gamer.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  I recently borrowed a Nintendo Switch from.

• 41:19Mark Manson?

  Borrowed?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, from a friend. Okay. She wasn't using, she's a new mom and she's like, I don't got time for this. So I borrowed it just to see what it was like. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Zelda is so fun. Oh, man, that's such a cool game. What I found there was like, okay, I need to like stop playing this whatever. I unplugged the thing and like set it somewhere else from the TV completely. So I don't, I can't just like sit right down and do that. So that's like a, you know. And inserting those friction, inserting like strategic friction.

• 41:45Mark Manson?

  Strategic friction is a huge one. We had Nir Eyal, a good friend of mine on the podcast a few months ago. And, and I remember he did something, uh, which you can get these plugs.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, the timers.

• 41:57Mark Manson?

  With the timers on them. So you can like, you can put a, put a plug, uh, plug it into your light socket and plug a device into it. And then you can program it so that it only gives power to that device, like certain, you know, say from 6pm to 9pm every day. So he, he attaches video games to that. And, uh, so it's like the. Playstation wouldn't even work until 6pm every day. So it just doesn't even give him the option like to change it. He has to like climb under the furniture and like redo everything. So being adding friction to the things that you don't want to do. And then also adding rewards and incentives to the things you do want to do.

• 42:35Mark Manson?

  Again, increasing the reward of of the positive habits. So this could be something like having an accountability buddy at the gym.

• 42:43Mark Manson?

  You know, joining a class instead of, you know, trying to exercise alone, doing a miserable workout. Like pick up a sport, a game that you can play, a new hobby.

• 42:57Mark Manson?

  You know, anything you can add on it like we're animals, right?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:00Mark Manson?

  It's the old carrot and stick like we I almost think of it as like training myself like a dog. Like I use the smarter instead of like using your enlightened part of your mind to like fight your animalistic mind in the moment because it's probably going to lose most of the time. Use the smart enlightened part of your mind to like

• 43:21Mark Manson?

  create incentive, structure incentives and frictions around your life and just nudge yourself in the right direction.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  See, OK, but I think a lot of people have heard these things before, and I certainly have. And I think anybody who's been really into like this, this space is self help or, you know, self improvement space. They've heard these things. Is that just is that treating the symptoms a little bit? Because I think I think it might be because you and you mentioned there are these like emotional triggers and cues that we have, and that's probably really the root of the problem.

• 43:51Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  And addressing those long term, I think in the short term, those those things, all those things work. They do. I know they do. They work for me. They definitely work for me. But there's there's still a little bit in my mind. I'm always like, you know, when that animal does rear its head, like, what is actually going on?

• 44:08Mark Manson?

  I don't think you can even have the space to address that until you've at least modified the behavior in the short term, right?

• 44:17Speaker 01

  OK.

• 44:17Mark Manson?

  So like. Give you an example, let's use video games as an example, right? Like if you, let's say you're binging video games, which I've done many times throughout my life. It's, it's only until you get yourself to stop binging video games that you actually have the cognitive space to sit there and evaluate, what am I feeling at this moment? Why am I so, why am I being so compulsive around this?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:42Mark Manson?

  What is driving this? Is there a way that I could maybe not be so compulsive around this? It, it, those questions, you don't even have space to deal with those questions until you've like gotten yourself to stop to a certain extent.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  That's a really good point because with, with the video game, my example of the video game too, I know, I was like, okay, I just need to unplug it and like set it aside. And then after that, I was like, oh, why do I need that? Why do I have to force myself to do that? And it did get me to thinking about that. It goes back to the perfectionism thing too. I was avoiding work because I wasn't going to be perfect. So it all.

• 45:15Mark Manson?

  And the nice thing about video games is, is that they've actually built into the video game a clear roadmap towards perfection.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  So that's right.

• 45:23Mark Manson?

  You can collect all the, all the items. You can beat all the bosses. You can get all the rewards and everything and max out your, your save file. And which I love doing.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Man.

• 45:33Mark Manson?

  But it's funny, like it's also having good people around you to not only keep you accountable, but also just be an observer. So like, for example, at some point in maybe six or seven years ago, you know, I would go in these periodic video game binges. And my wife pointed out to me at some point, she was like, you know, when you go into these binges, I've noticed that there's something wrong that you're not addressing. Like she noticed a correlation between my video game binges and like some sort of, you know, I don't know, issue with my family or with my work or my self-esteem or like some, some emotional problem that I was definitely avoiding.

• 46:18Mark Manson?

  And until it got dealt with or resolved in some way, the, the binge would continue essentially.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah. I've, I've found that too with other like TV or whatever it is. Cause I'll, I'll binge TV sometimes.

• 46:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  God, I feel awful after that. Video games, I don't feel as bad. Like you're actually.

• 46:36Mark Manson?

  You feel like you're accomplishing something.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So that's another lure of them too.

• 46:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah, for sure. For sure.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  That's, that's really good, Mark.

• 46:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Good job.

• 46:44Mark Manson?

  Thanks, true.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  No, that is really helpful. Because I'm like, yeah, but that's, you know, if I'm sitting here, I'm like, I really want to get at the emotional thing. It's like, well, yeah, okay, you can get at the emotional thing. You need to stop the behavior first.

• 46:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  To get some space.

• 46:56Mark Manson?

  And it's, I want to be clear too, that like, the emotional thing.

• 47:02Mark Manson?

  Understanding the emotional component of the cue or the trigger. It's useful and you can definitely soften it. But it's not like, like, sometimes I feel like people get this false impression of like, well, if you just deal with the underlying emotion, then you'll never want to binge a video game or drink alcohol or overeat midnight snacks ever again. I was like, nah, no, like, that impulse will still be there. It's just you'll have a much better understanding of what it is, where it's coming from. And, and it, it'll have less control over you.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:34Mark Manson?

  When it shows up.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:35Mark Manson?

  So.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  One other little thing I want to talk about too.

• 47:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  This though, is the idea of how good habits generally take you out of your comfort zone. Right? In a way that bad habits, though, bad habits almost by definition are like, helping you.

• 47:51Mark Manson?

  Into your comfort zone.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Into your comfort zone. Good habits though, often, there's often a lot of friction up front, you know, going to a new gym or something like that. Like, when I started yoga a couple of years ago, that was super uncomfortable. Right? Because it's not like I'd never moved that way. I'd never been around, you know, a bunch of half naked people, like, you know, and there's all body types and everything like that in there. So anybody can feel comfortable, I felt like, but it was just a very, it was just weird too. You know, like, the language they use and all of that kind of stuff.

• 48:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I have good habits around half naked people.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Oh, do you? Do you?

• 48:26Mark Manson?

  Very, very much in my comfort zone.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  I knew they'd hang out with you more often then.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  But no, there is that, there is that like, initial, you know, the starting cost basically are higher for, for good habits. And I don't know if there's a way to, you just got to grind through that or, or what, I don't know. I, same thing with like, when I stopped drinking, there was actually some, some. Initial friction around that because everybody around me.

• 48:51Mark Manson?

  Right, and people ask and they, some people judge you and some people are like, come on, man, just have one drink.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  And then on top of that, too, the drinking, like, you really don't see the biggest effects for like months at a time. So it's, that's one of those that it's like, there's all sorts of things working against you.

• 49:06Mark Manson?

  Well, I think there's a component here. I've called it before meta emotions, which is like an emotion about an emotion, right? So, you know, going, going to a yoga class for the first time in your life and doing all these weird poses and hearing all these words you don't understand, like, yeah, it is a totally uncomfortable, awkward, strange thing. That's fine. Where a lot of people get tripped up is then how they feel about that awkwardness and discomfort, right? Because a lot of people will exit that experience and they'll be like, that was so weird. I never want to feel that again. I shouldn't, I shouldn't have to feel something awkward, right? Like, this is supposed to be a good thing for me.

• 49:47Mark Manson?

  Whereas some people say like, okay, that was awkward and that was difficult, but I'm really glad I did it. I'm, I'm improving, I'm learning. This is part of the process, right? It's similar to when you fail a new habit, like, no matter what your goal is or whatever your desired habit is, like, you're gonna slip up at some point, right? You're gonna eat the burger or miss the workout or whatever. Again, the meta emotions have a huge role, like, that's where they become very significant. So you miss the workout that you're supposed to do. Some people are very harsh with themselves. They're, they judge themselves horribly.

• 50:28Mark Manson?

  They're like, man, I fucked everything up. This is why I never get better. This is why I never achieve any of my goals. Whereas some people are like, hey, you know, it happens. Nobody's perfect. It's, this is a marathon, not a race. Let's get back on the saddle. Let's do it again next week. Right? And it's, so again, it's how much are you judging yourself for the inevitable discomforts and failures versus how accepting are you of yourself? And then there's also, there's also being too accepting. Right? Like it's, if you're missing every other workout and every single one, you're like, wow, I deserve, I deserve missing this one. Cause you know, I worked late yesterday or you know, oh, I deserve missing this one

• 51:12Mark Manson?

  because next week's my birthday. Like if you're constantly excusing yourself, then that's also a problem. So there is a emotional process of around the emotions that you're experiencing, which I think takes a lot of wisdom as well.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. We covered a lot of that in the self discipline episode too. So we should link to that. But yeah, that's, that's a good point. We're self disciplined is self correction.

• 51:36Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  But there's a balance you gotta strike.

• 51:37Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:38Mark Manson?

  Absolutely. Cool.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  All right.

• 51:41Mark Manson?

  Is there a wisdom of the week of the year?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 51:46Mark Manson?

  God damn it, true.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  I forgot again. No, no.

• 51:50Mark Manson?

  It's the last time I let, I leave you up to outlining the episode. This will never happen again.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 51:59Mark Manson?

  See, you're practicing your, your imperfection.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yes. And you need to let go of controlling.

• 52:03Mark Manson?

  And I'm, I really, I'm already over it.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  That's wise.

• 52:06Mark Manson?

  Don't give a fuck.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  That's wise.

• 52:09Mark Manson?

  So maybe that's our wisdom of the week. All right, guys, we will see you next time. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Burney. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Cho is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.