The Apocalypse Killer: Herbert Mullin 2

Herbert Mullin's struggles with delusions made him an especially dangerous serial killer. Unable to overcome the voices in his head, he preyed on people all around Santa Cruz, California in the early 1970s. But because there was so much violent crime in the area, Herb's killing spree went undetected. And by the time anyone realized what was going on, thirteen people had lost their lives. Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House Original. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @crimehouse for more true crime content.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:43Vanessa Richardson?

  When we look back on things, it's easy to reflect on past regrets, asking yourself plenty of "what ifs." What if I'd taken that job? What if I hadn't moved? Some of us search for the single moment that changed everything. But of course, there's no such thing. Our lives involve thousands of events, decisions, and interactions that all shape who we become. And those moments turned Herbert Mullin into a killer. Each event, decision, interaction, they all brought Herb closer to the violent rampage of death that came

• 1:27Vanessa Richardson?

  to define him.

• 1:40Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes, the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, "How could someone do such a thing?" Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original. Every Monday, we'll be taking deep dives into the Minds of history's most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible.

• 2:21Vanessa Richardson?

  Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts. And to enhance your Mind of a Serial Killer listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting bonus content. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 2:49Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject stories, I'll be helping her dive into these killers' minds as we try to understand how someone could do such horrible things.

• 3:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Before we get into the story, you should know it contains descriptions of murder and violence toward children. Listener discretion is advised. This is the second and final episode on Herbert Mullin, a serial killer in California who killed 13 people during a five-month rampage in the early 1970s. Last week, we explored the onset of Herb's struggle with schizophrenia. His delusions led Herb to believe he'd been given a mission to sacrifice as many people as he could in order to prevent a devastating earthquake. In today's episode, we'll cover the final murders Herb committed, including the one that brought his rampage to an end.

• 3:45Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a serial killer?

• 3:54Speaker 03

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• 5:20Vanessa Richardson?

  It was late January 1973, and investigators had just discovered a link between two of Herbert Mullins' grisly murder scenes. A man named Jim Gennara was fatally shot, along with his wife Joan, in Santa Cruz. Not far away, Kathy Francis and her two sons were found dead in their mountain cabin. Authorities determined that all five were killed with the same gun, and now they wanted to know who had pulled the trigger. But linking the crimes to Herbert's previous murders wouldn't be easy, because he'd committed them in such drastically different ways.

• 5:59Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, let's discuss that for a moment. Herb started with bludgeoning his first victim, Lawrence, and then progressed to stabbing, and finally to using a firearm. The evolution here is not abnormal. Most serial killers at some point modify their methods of operation to accommodate new circumstances or have more control over their victims. They learn as they go that there may be more effective methods. And for example, he may have learned that with his first victim, Lawrence, that bludgeoning him takes more time or physical effort, and there is a risk that he could be overpowered in those instances. So he graduated to using a knife.

• 6:42Tristin Engels?

  The risk of that seemed to lower with Mary, but when he encountered Father Henri, who fought back, maybe he realized that he could be overpowered there as well. With a firearm, the risk of that occurring greatly decreases. I also think that's why he might have brought the firearm to these instances. He likely estimated that these victims weren't alone. Someone could intervene, and with a firearm, he has more control over that as well. But let's also not forget that he was a marksman, recognized by the NRA, and now wanted to be in the military. So that alone could explain the shift.

• 7:23Vanessa Richardson?

  Regardless of how they were killed, a five-person homicide would be rare under most circumstances. But in the 1970s, horrific crime scenes like these were unfortunately all too common in Santa Cruz. Because 25-year-old Herb wasn't the only serial killer stalking the roads of Santa Cruz during this time. Some even referred to Santa Cruz as "the murder capital of the United States." In 1970, a man named John Frazier assassinated five people during a sadistic raid on a hilltop mansion. And when Herb started his rampage in 1972, notorious serial killer Ed Kemper was preying

• 8:07Vanessa Richardson?

  on young female hitchhikers. We bring this up now because for the authorities investigating all these deaths, having multiple killers in the area must have been chaotic, to say the least. It likely muddied crime scenes, made evidence confusing, and hindered the development of a solid profile. So finding connections between any of the victims was hugely important.

• 8:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Which brings us back to the Francis and Gennara murders. Investigators discovered the crime scenes were linked by ballistics, but they also realized there was a relationship between the two families. Bob Francis, Kathy's husband, was good friends with Jim Gennara. The two sometimes dealt drugs together. An early theory was either that Bob was responsible, or perhaps Jim owed money to someone dangerous. Both of those theories were quickly ruled out, though, and Bob ended up cooperating with the police. He even created a list of anyone he knew who might have wanted to hurt him, and by extension, his family. Herbert Mullin wasn't on that list.

• 9:18Vanessa Richardson?

  While investigators were spinning their wheels, Herb went to church. Five days after killing the Gennara and Francis families, Herb walked into a Lutheran congregation. Herb was raised Catholic, and he told the Lutheran pastor he was there to learn about another denomination. At the pastor's urging, Herb attended a Bible group where he unnerved everyone by saying, quote, "The devil can get into people and make them do things they wouldn't do otherwise. I have the power to cast out demons."

• 9:55Tristin Engels?

  Let's unpack this. Especially Herb looking for another denomination and then obviously making statements like this. His last victims were targeted because of persecutory delusions that his former friend Jim had given him drugs with the intention of what he believed destroying his life. He also had gotten into a fight with his parents and has become paranoid about their intentions as well. So there's a lot of projection of blame happening that's secondary to these delusions. I think that him looking for another denomination is a form of psychological reactance, and it's his way of separating him from Catholicism because it's another way of distancing himself from his parents.

• 10:37Tristin Engels?

  Now, his statement about how the devil can get inside your head and make you do things that you don't want to do, I think he's finding a way to rationalize the irrational. I don't think he necessarily thinks that what he did was wrong. He's trying to convince himself that what he did was morally right. He once referred to himself as a human sacrifice. So when that happened, I interpreted that to mean that he feels chosen to do what he feels others cannot. And I think this is an extension of that. And he's not having a rational mind, but it's his way of trying to do that.

• 11:15Vanessa Richardson?

  It's interesting, too, that he blamed his parents for his actions, and the Marines had also rejected him. And I feel like that's another kind of layer to this.

• 11:24Tristin Engels?

  Yep, it definitely is. I think we'll see a little bit more of that as we go through the story.

• 11:31Vanessa Richardson?

  Whatever he meant by those comments, it seems like Herb was entering a period of introspection, which could also be why, about a week later, in early February 1973, he went into the forest. Herb decided to go on a day hike around Henry Cowell Redwoods, a sprawling 4,600-acre state park that bordered his hometown Felton. While he wandered through the forest, he noticed a makeshift shelter nestled among the trees. It was currently occupied by a group of older teenagers, Brian Card, David O'Leiker, Robert Specter, and Mark Dribblebiss. As soon as Herb saw their camp, he knew it wasn't supposed to

• 12:14Vanessa Richardson?

  be there. They were far outside the designated campground, and it bothered him. Even so, Herb didn't approach immediately. Instead, he waited until the next day. That's when he returned and let himself into the shelter to confront the illegal campers. Herb would later say they seemed like flower children. This could have been a partial trigger for him. Herb believed he'd been brainwashed by anti-war hippies while he was in college.

• 12:42Tristin Engels?

  This would more likely than not play into his paranoia and even persecutory delusions. But also, he's once again playing the savior, thinking that it's his job to address an illegal campsite, or what he perceives to be an illegal campsite.

• 12:57Vanessa Richardson?

  And after that, a mild argument ensued in which Herb threatened to tell the park's rangers. But what happened next was far worse than any repercussions for illegal camping. Herb, urged on by the voices in his head, pulled out his gun. Herb shot and killed all four campers before they could react. They didn't even have time to grab a rifle they were keeping in their shelter. Herb took it with him after he departed the crime scene.

• 13:26Tristin Engels?

  Hmm, this plays, I think, into that hanging on to the military, like you mentioned before, Vanessa. So there's already a pattern of grandiose paranoid and persecutory delusions that we've outlined. The grandiosity is evident, not only in his belief that he has these otherworldly powers to cast out demons and save people from natural disasters, but also in his belief that he has the authority to break up a campsite that may or may not be illegal. Then, we've seen that he's paranoid, in this case of anti-war protesters, and believes that they have persecuted him in the past by destroying his life. So I'm willing to bet that this group of campers had a very normal reaction to a strange

• 14:08Tristin Engels?

  man entering their shelter and telling them what they can and cannot do. I would expect that they likely challenged his authority in ordering them to leave, and that would mean that they're challenging his delusions. And to Herb, the paranoia, the persecutory beliefs, they're very real. He truly is afraid and believes a group of people or his parents are out to harm him. So this reaction, although obviously lethal and clearly disproportionate and not excusable, seems directly connected to his mental illness.

• 14:39Vanessa Richardson?

  It would be a while before the campsite and the campers' bodies were found. For the time being, Herb was safe from anyone discovering his latest murders. But that wasn't true for another one of Herb's crime scenes. One of his first victims was about to resurface, and it would take the investigation in a tragic new direction.

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• 16:25Speaker 01

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• 17:07Speaker 01

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• 18:36Vanessa Richardson?

  It had been about four months since 25-year-old Herbert Mullin had killed and dismembered a 24-year-old college student named Mary Guilfoyle. He'd then hidden the body in the woods, about five miles outside Santa Cruz. Mary's remains had gone undiscovered until February 12, 1973, when a group of hikers found her. Her body had significantly decomposed by that point, so even though it was clear she'd been murdered, it didn't seem like there was much evidence pointing to Herb. Mary was one of many college-aged women who went missing or were killed in the Santa Cruz area.

• 19:17Vanessa Richardson?

  Six of these women would eventually be linked to serial killer Ed Kemper, who also hid his victims' bodies in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Mary was lumped in with these victims, which meant she wasn't linked to any of the other murders Herbert Mullin had committed so far. And Herbert was about to strike again.

• 19:40Vanessa Richardson?

  On February 13th, 1973, the day after Mary was found, Herb left his Santa Cruz apartment to deliver firewood to his parents. But his errand was interrupted before he got there. He heard his father's voice, sending him another telepathic message. Herb needed to kill again. This time, the request hit a little closer to home. The voice in Herb's head demanded he kill his own uncle. According to psychiatrist and author Donald Lund, Herb took issue with this and refused. But in Herb's mind, his father's disembodied voice was adamant.

• 20:22Vanessa Richardson?

  If Herb wouldn't kill his uncle, he had to find someone else.

• 20:28Tristin Engels?

  It's not atypical for individuals with schizophrenia who are experiencing auditory-verbal hallucinations to negotiate or talk back to them. The reason they do this is because the voices, especially if they are commanding or persecutory in nature, can be very distressing and debilitating. It disrupts their belief that they're in control of their own thoughts and feelings. It's isolating, with many too afraid to tell others what the voices are saying, or afraid that they'll be labeled as crazy. And I use that word only because this has been reported to me from individuals with schizophrenia. And to them, it's very real. And it's hard to accept that it's psychological in origin, what they're experiencing.

• 21:11Tristin Engels?

  So imagine you're under constant attack like this. Even if that person was right in front of you and not a hallucination, people will attempt to ignore, talk back, or even negotiate. With Herb, he believes that in order to appease the voice and get some reprieve from this constant attack, he has to follow its orders. It's almost like a compulsion. It does indicate he still lacks the insight into the origin of these voices, which elevates his risk of being a continued danger to himself, to others, and gravely disabled.

• 21:46Vanessa Richardson?

  It's interesting, he took control, though, this time. He said no to the voice. This is the first time, I think, that that's happened that we know of.

• 21:52Tristin Engels?

  You're right. It is the first time, and it makes me curious what his uncle signified to him. Because we haven't heard about his uncle.

• 22:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Yeah.

• 22:00Tristin Engels?

  Up until this point. I don't know what connection he had to his uncle. And if the uncle is the brother of his father, or if it's the brother of his mother, and given the voice he's hearing is the voice of his father, which, again, that's pretty typical. When they do have auditory-verbal hallucinations, the voice is usually a familiar one. So I'm very curious what that connection is. And if we understand that, then we can have a better understanding why, in this instance, and this instance only, did he try to push back.

• 22:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Even if he wasn't going to kill his uncle, Herb was going to kill. Instead of delivering firewood that day, Herb drove around in his Chevy, seeking out his next victim. He found one around 8:00 a.m., 72-year-old Fred Perez. That morning, Fred was working on his yard in a residential neighborhood. It's unclear how Herb latched on to him, but in a tragic twist of fate, something drew him to Fred. Herb parked about 100 feet from the home, took out the rifle that he'd stolen from the campers, and fired.

• 23:07Tristin Engels?

  This sounds like an act of desperation, and of opportunity, almost as if it wasn't enough of a sacrifice that it would appease the voice and allow him to change the focus from his uncle. And Fred is obviously a more vulnerable target.

• 23:25Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, afterward, Herb sat in his car for a moment, allowing himself to take a beat before heading off to finish his errand. Except Herb wouldn't make it to his parents to drop off that firewood. At the sound of the gunshots, Fred's neighbor stepped onto her front porch. She noticed a few things. One was Herb's Chevy idling a few yards away before driving off. The other was a red sticker on the car's front door of the STP Motor Oil logo. And then she noticed Fred's body, lying still in his yard. He was dead. The neighbor called the police and told them what she saw. Her description of the car was relayed to the area's patrols, and shortly after, a

• 24:10Vanessa Richardson?

  Santa Cruz police officer noticed the Chevy with the STP sticker drive by. Given the violence Herb was capable of, and his absolute conviction in his mission, one might expect some kind of spectacle as he was arrested. But it was relatively straightforward. The cop flashed his lights, and Herb immediately pulled over. And when the officer approached the Chevy, he saw the rifle Herb had used to kill Fred just minutes ago. Herb was taken into custody without any resistance. But just because he didn't run, that didn't mean he was ready to confess. When he was questioned, Herb refused to say anything meaningful.

• 24:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Anytime the investigators asked him a question, Herb would just yell the word "silence." However, that didn't mean the investigation was at a dead end. Along with the rifle, police found Herb's pistol in his car, and the receipt for it. It didn't take the investigators long to realize it was the same type of gun used in the Gennara and Francis murders, less than a month earlier.

• 25:17Vanessa Richardson?

  While they waited for a ballistics lab to check if this was the gun used in those murders, they confirmed that Herb bought it on December 16th, 1971. That meant he owned the gun at the time of the murders. They also spoke to Herb's parents. According to an account from the Die Song by Donald Lund and Jefferson Morgan, the Mullins seemed shocked to find detectives on their front steps, but they were willing to cooperate with them. Herb's parents told the detectives all about their son, his hospital record and his drug usage and anything else they wanted to know. Herb's father, William Mullin, even went to the station to talk to his son.

• 26:01Vanessa Richardson?

  While he was able to get Herb to say more than silence, William still didn't get much out of him, and he couldn't get a confession.

• 26:10Tristin Engels?

  Herb's decision to remain quiet with law enforcement might seem like a smart choice, given how it can later be used in court. But I don't think that Herb has the capacity to understand the gravity of the situation. His silence, to me, seems more likely due to his mental illness, in particular, his delusions and his paranoia or persecutory beliefs. Because law enforcement is a paramilitary organization, and he was rejected by the military, and he may have seen them adjacent to that or sees them as getting in the way of his mission. So he doesn't respond to commands that aren't the voices that he hears. He may also believe that because of his grandiose beliefs, that he had a higher mission for the higher good,

• 26:55Tristin Engels?

  that somehow this would resolve itself for him in a magical sort of way.

• 27:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Just the thought of him screaming silence when somebody spoke is so interesting in that sense. Like, those are voices outside of his head. He's trying to silence.

• 27:09Tristin Engels?

  Exactly. So he's like, and that word, it makes me wonder, is he yelling to the voices to be silent? Or is he yelling that he's supposed to remain silent? It's hard to tell, but I would say that he's probably yelling at the voices, because the voices might be, you know, again, environmental stressors. will exacerbate symptoms of schizophrenia. And right now, he's detained, he's being questioned. They've got weapons in his car. He just committed this act out of desperation to avoid having to kill his own uncle. So he's probably highly agitated. And with that comes an increase in the frequency or intensity of the hallucinations.

• 27:50Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, since Herb wasn't talking, police kept looking elsewhere for evidence. They went to Herb's apartment and searched it top to bottom. Of note, they found a Bible, a book about Einstein, a few newspaper clippings about the murders he'd committed, and a coat with a missing button. The button in question was the one he dropped at the Gennara residence. Investigators also rifled through a notebook and found Jim Gennara's old address, the place on Mystery Spot Road where Kathy Francis and her kids were killed. And it didn't take long for the ballistics lab to confirm that the rifle in Herb's car was the same one used to kill Fred Perez.

• 28:31Vanessa Richardson?

  They also confirmed the revolver in Herb's possession was used to murder Jim and Joan Gennara, as well as Kathy Francis and her two boys. On February 15, 1973, two days after Herb was pulled over, he was charged with six counts of murder: the Gennaras, the Francis's, and Fred Perez. And that was just the beginning. When his fingerprints were put into the system, they matched a print taken from the murder scene of Father Henri Tome, the Catholic priest Herb had killed. The crime had taken place in a different county than Herb's other murders, so the Tome case would be handled separately.

• 29:14Vanessa Richardson?

  But still, it was significant, and the body count would keep climbing from there.

• 29:21Vanessa Richardson?

  On February 17th, two days after Herb was initially charged, the bodies of the four murdered campers were found. One of the victim's brothers knew where they'd been camping. It had been about a week since he heard from them, so he went to their campsite to check in. Around 2:00 PM that day, he found all four, including his brother, dead in their plastic-covered tent. About two days later, the lab confirmed that Herb had killed them with the same gun he'd used to kill the Gennaras and the Francis family. By investigators' count, that was potentially 11 people Herb had eliminated, and they suspected there were more.

• 30:07Vanessa Richardson?

  That was the moment psychiatrist Donald Lund came in. He was hired by Herb's lawyer, who was having trouble getting his client to talk to him. Lund's job was to analyze Herb and hopefully help the defense team build their case for trial, presumably for an insanity defense, which he did. But Lund also got the information authorities and the public had been waiting for. It took multiple interviews, but by mid-April, about two months after Herb's arrest, Herb opened up to Lund and told him everything. That included confessing to the two murders that authorities hadn't yet pinned on him, Mary Guilfoyle and his first victim, Lawrence White.

• 30:51Tristin Engels?

  So, why is Herb confessing now? I think that makes perfect sense. A psychiatrist who is trained to interact with individuals with schizophrenia knows how to build trust with them. There's a very strategic way in doing that with someone as delusional as Herb. But also, Dr. Lund was not part of the groups that his delusions were directed at in the way his parents or law enforcement or military was. Dr. Lund was probably able to validate Herb's experiences, elicit information in a nonjudgmental way, and empathize with him in ways others were not able to do until this point. I myself have been in situations like this where

• 31:33Tristin Engels?

  I have very delusional patients or defendants who are not willing to speak with correctional officers or law enforcement, and we're escalating because of law enforcement, because their paranoia was tied up in law enforcement. And I would have been called in to de-escalate or help gain compliance or understanding. We just have the tools to do this in ways that law enforcement or attorneys are not trained to do. So it makes sense to me why Herb would confess to Dr. Lund and open up to him.

• 32:11Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, ultimately, it's not clear why Herb admitted to those murders. As with many details in this case, following Herb's logic is often difficult. But it's possible the two months he'd spent in jail so far had given him time to think about his belief system. He may have become more convinced than ever that he'd been carrying out a moral mission to sacrifice a few lives in order to save many more. But Herb was also one of those sacrifices. He had wholly committed himself to his supposed mission, and he was about to find out how steep the cost was.

• 32:52Vanessa Richardson?

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• 34:31Speaker 06

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• 35:34Vanessa Richardson?

  By the spring of 1973, authorities had evidence that Herbert Mullin had killed at least 11 people. But each time they thought they understood the scope of his crimes, they'd find out it was worse than they thought. In April, Herb revealed he killed two additional people, Mary Guilfoyle and Lawrence White. He also explained why he did it. He cited his theory about the earthquakes, including a biblical story he discovered about a man named Jonah who sacrificed himself before God to save 13 men. Around the time Herb confessed, serial killer Ed Kemper was finally arrested. When he was

• 36:18Vanessa Richardson?

  taken into custody, he was put in the cell next to Herb for a short time. According to Donald Lund, the two serial killers hated one another. Lund theorized that Herb was disgusted by Ed's reason for killing because there was no moral imperative for it. Ed killed for sexual gratification, while Herb felt like he'd done it for a higher purpose.

• 36:41Tristin Engels?

  It's not uncommon for incarcerated individuals to have some kind of inner ranking system of crimes. It's been my experience at least that they do this to distance themselves from another crime that in prison is considered, quote, "the worst." That environment, like I said before, it's very inherently negative and hostile. So these rationalizations and justifications regarding their crimes are sometimes considered necessary by them for safety reasons and for their own emotional reasons. In California prisons, incarcerated individuals view crimes against women and children as one of the, quote, "worst." So

• 37:21Tristin Engels?

  Herb trying to make justifications about his motives and why he did his crimes and them being altruistic makes sense to me. And it makes sense to me why he directed, you know, that defense against being lumped into anything like Ed Kemper.

• 37:43Vanessa Richardson?

  Whatever Herb's reasons were for becoming a serial killer, his defense team wanted to know what caused the delusions that motivated him. So they asked psychiatrist Donald Lund to work with a private investigator and look into Herb's past. The goal was to construct the when and how behind Herb's decline. While the defense was piecing together who Herb was and who he became, the prosecution was building their case against him, and they had a lot of evidence. They had fingerprints, ballistics, a witness who saw his car, the coat button Herb left at the Gennara crime scene, and that was just scratching the surface.

• 38:26Vanessa Richardson?

  When Herb was brought to trial in July of 1973, he was looking at 10 murder indictments: the Gennaras, the Francis's, Fred Perez, and the four campers. Later, there would be an 11th in Santa Clara County when he was charged with killing Father Tome. And although he'd confessed to killing Mary Guilfoyle and Lawrence White, authorities decided not to pursue those charges, possibly because there wasn't enough evidence to corroborate his claims. But there was no question Herb had committed the other murders. When he went on trial, he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

• 39:08Tristin Engels?

  Okay, so let's explore a "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense. Firstly, insanity is a legal term. It's not a diagnosis, and I think a lot of people aren't aware of that, so I wanted to make that very clear. The legal requirements for this defense are going to vary by state, and there are three major legal standards. In California, we follow the Mitten Rule. And to meet the legal standard, we have to determine as evaluators, and I have done these, is if the subject has a mental disease or defect, and those terms are also legal terms. And at the time of the commission of the alleged offense,

• 39:48Tristin Engels?

  was the subject capable of knowing or understanding the nature of the acts and distinguishing right from wrong? And then lastly, the court wants to know if the subject has fully recovered their sanity? And has there been such an improvement that the subject is not a menace to the health and safety of others? Again, these are all legal jargon. So I've done these evaluations, like I mentioned, and they are very extensive. Determining someone's mental state at the time of a crime requires a lot of research, a lot of interviewing, especially because we often evaluate them years after the crime took place. Pre-trial proceedings can take a while for several reasons.

• 40:32Tristin Engels?

  And I think initially, Dr. Lund might have even been evaluating him for competency first because he's not participating with his own legal team. From what we know about Herb so far, he does in fact have a mental disease or defect that could impair his understanding of the nature of his acts. He has a diagnosis of schizophrenia that seems quite accurate, given his age of onset and his symptoms. He's had several psychiatric hospitalizations and he has a substance abuse history. His use of LSD could have actually triggered his condition and caused it to settle. That's something that would require further evaluation. But either way, the diagnosis is there. We know he has been experiencing severe delusions

• 41:17Tristin Engels?

  as well as auditory-verbal hallucinations. The problem is determining if he knew his actions were right or wrong. And the fact is that with Lawrence and Mary, he covered up the bodies. With Jim, he picked up all of the cartridges and attempted to cover up the evidence. With the campers, he took the rifle with him. So this indicates to me that he did possibly have an understanding about what he did being wrong. But the fact that there are multiple murders that he is being charged with. That occurred at different times when his mental illness could have been in

• 41:58Tristin Engels?

  different stages of acuity, that makes it very difficult to evaluate. But the bottom line is, whatever the evaluator's opinion is, they provide that to the court, and it's up to the trier of fact, meaning it's up to the jury to determine whether they're guilty or not, or whether they meet that standard.

• 42:18Vanessa Richardson?

  So, just to clarify, there didn't seem to be any debate over whether or not Herb had committed the murders he was charged with. He clearly did. The question was, did he know what he was doing was wrong? The defense's job was to prove that Herb did not know right from wrong at the time he committed the murders. The prosecution, of course, needed to prove the opposite. Both sides combed through Herb's life in detail, analyzing each moment: the death of his friend Dean in high school, his hospitalizations, his discovery of the earthquake theory, and how he carried out each of the murders he was being tried for. Each side was trying to dissect the thousands of events, decisions, and interactions that

• 43:02Vanessa Richardson?

  had brought them all to this place. Psychiatric experts were called for the defense, including Donald Lund, but ultimately, the jury wasn't convinced. Herbert Mullin was convicted on all 10 counts and given multiple life sentences. Herbert Mullin has tried and failed to get out of prison. As recently as 2021, he attended a parole hearing and admitted he could now see he'd been sick and appeared to regret his actions. He didn't bring up the theory that had supposedly made him kill in the first place, the earthquakes in a catastrophe of biblical proportions. Instead, he blamed his parents.

• 43:47Vanessa Richardson?

  He'd apparently been reflecting on his childhood, how he got to this point, and he decided Mr. and Mrs. Mullen were culpable. In Herb's mind, they'd given him a narrow worldview. According to Herb's defense attorney, Herb asserted that they had plotted to, quote, "deprive him of joy."

• 44:07Tristin Engels?

  We talk a lot on this podcast about the role of parents in each of these cases. And we do that not to place the blame on the parents, but to understand their family of origin. Is there a family history of mental illness? And how their formative years may have shaped them or their worldview. Childhood trauma has been a singular theme when it comes to serial killers, meaning it's something that has been consistent. But that's not a causation. UNICEF estimates that nearly 400 million children globally experience childhood trauma or abuse. And if unresolved childhood trauma was the singular reason someone becomes a serial killer, then we would see a much larger number than the one that exists,

• 44:52Tristin Engels?

  which is less than 1% of the population. So the reality is it's a combination of nature and nurture. Herb is different than the serial killers we've covered so far because he has a psychotic disorder. The majority of the individuals we've covered had personality disorders and psychopathy. Schizophrenia develops from a combination of biological, psychological, social, and environmental factors. Herb has a pattern of projecting blame, and he's now doing that onto his parents. So there is some insight that he has a mental illness, but he's still resisting the accountability.

• 45:33Vanessa Richardson?

  In the end, Herb was denied parole. In 2022, he passed away of natural causes behind bars at the age of 75. And whatever it was that really drove him to kill, died along with him.

• 46:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time as we discuss the mind of another serial killer.

• 46:08Tristin Engels?

  Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you liked what you heard today, reach out on social media at Crime House on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts.

• 46:30Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Mind of a Serial Killer ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Monday. Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios, is executive produced by Max Cutler. This episode of Mind of a Serial Killer was produced and directed by Ron Shapiro, written by Kate Murdock, edited by Alex Benedon, fact-checked by Claire Cronin, and included production assistance from Paul Lebaskin, Sarah Carroll, and Stacy

• 47:12Vanessa Richardson?

  Waranker. Mind of a Serial Killer is hosted by Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristin Engels. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful was "Die Song" by Donald Lund and Jefferson Morgan.

• 47:34Vanessa Richardson?

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• 49:39Vanessa Richardson?

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