The Apocalypse Killer: Herbert Mullin 1

Serial killer Herbert Mullin suffered from the delusion that a terrible disaster was coming -- and the only way to avert it was to sacrifice as many people as he could. During the 1970s, he terrorized the region around Santa Cruz, California, murdering innocent people. But soon, his killing spree turned more personal -- and even more dangerous. Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House Original. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @crimehouse for more true crime content.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:43Vanessa Richardson?

  A lot of us have this voice in our head, a presence in our daily lives as we tackle problems both big and small. Many call it an internal monologue. You might also call it a conscience. Either way, it's something you can lean on when times are tough because, at the end of the day, it's you. But what if that voice couldn't be trusted? Serial killer Herbert Mullin heard terrible voices in his head that commanded him to do terrible things. And unfortunately for 13 people around Santa Cruz in the early 1970s, by the time anyone realized the threat Herbert posed, it was too late to save them.

• 1:39Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes, the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, how could someone do such a thing? Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original. Every Monday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of History's most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible.

• 2:20Vanessa Richardson?

  Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts. And to enhance your Mind of a Serial Killer listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting bonus content. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 2:48Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject stories, I'll be helping her dive into these killers' minds as we try to understand how someone could do such horrible things.

• 2:59Vanessa Richardson?

  Before we get into the story, you should know it contains descriptions of murder and violence toward children. Listener discretion is advised. This is the first of two episodes on Herbert Mullin, a California native who began a five-month murder spree in the fall of 1972. By the end of his rampage, 13 people were dead. Herb would say taking their lives was a necessary evil because a series of delusions had convinced Herb that if he didn't kill, an enormous earthquake would decimate California. In today's episode, we'll explore Herb's childhood and early adulthood.

• 3:40Vanessa Richardson?

  We'll examine the powerful delusions that drove him to serial murder and what motivated Herb to seek out his initial victims. Next time, we'll cover the end of his terrifying murder spree, his eventual unmasking, and, as always, asking the question, what makes a serial killer?

• 4:09Vanessa Richardson?

  On April 18th, 1947, Herbert Mullin was born into a typical suburban, post-war American family. Herb's family consisted of an older sister, a devout Catholic mother, and a father, William, who'd served in the Marines before becoming a salesman. His job took him on the road a lot, and the family moved frequently around Northern California during Herb's formative years. They finally settled in Felton, a town in Santa Cruz County, almost 75 miles south of San Francisco. Herb certainly considered the constant relocation unfair. It created instability, which he'd later call an intentional move on his parents' part

• 4:53Vanessa Richardson?

  to hold him back.

• 4:55Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, research has shown us that children who move frequently during critical developmental years can have deficits in the acquisition of proper social skills, as well as emotional development. It can also cause impairment in academic performance and make it more difficult for that child to find their own identity, because they're having to constantly adapt to new surroundings. So the age of when this occurs also plays a part in just how much it impacts a child. For example, a child who's in kindergarten or first grade has just started the process of going to school. That means they're still learning to adjust in an environment that isn't their home, with caregivers that aren't their parents or legal guardians, and that's uneasy for them.

• 5:37Tristin Engels?

  Children are already at a risk of separation anxiety, and not having a constant school during this time could impact that anxiety greatly. Long-term, moving frequently can affect how they form attachments to others, and they're at an elevated risk of developing anxiety, depression, or anger management deficits.

• 5:58Vanessa Richardson?

  But in 1963, when Herb was 16, no one would guess he was struggling. On the contrary, he was thriving. Before moving to Felton, he'd only gone to Catholic schools. Now that he was at a public high school, he seemed to blossom. He was popular with a girlfriend and good grades. He even played sports: football, basketball, and baseball. He was also an accomplished marksman and won certificates from the NRA. During the summers, he worked part-time at both a market and a gas station. At this point in his life, he was a good-natured, well-liked kid with a solid work ethic, who seemed destined to succeed in life.

• 6:40Vanessa Richardson?

  And he had big plans with his best friend Dean, too. They were gonna attend the same local junior college together after high school. But then came a defining, life-altering moment for Herb. In 1965, right after Herb graduated high school, his best friend Dean died in a car accident. Dean's death had a profound impact on Herb's emotional state. He cried for weeks and would spend hours in his room, where he assembled candles and photos of Dean in what some said looked like a shrine. According to psychiatrist and author Donald Lund, Herb's feelings towards Dean weren't romantic in nature. Herb's sexuality always remained a bit of a mystery.

• 7:25Vanessa Richardson?

  But Dean was by far the most important person in his life. And in hindsight, it's fair to say Herb's grief was overwhelming.

• 7:35Tristin Engels?

  I can understand why. The frequent moving around in his formative years could have impacted his ability to make any attachments with peers. Now that he's in high school and appears to have settled, at least for a relatively long period of time, he seems to be thriving. And I think that's likely because he finally had stability. He's likely made his first real peer attachment with his best friend Dean. And until now, most of his peer attachments were likely broken due to relocating. And that's something that, as he grew older, he may have had advanced warning about. His parents might have sat him down to let him know, "Hey, we're moving." And that could have been what helped him cope with those feelings of loss in the past.

• 8:18Tristin Engels?

  But now he loses his best friend Dean unexpectedly, without warning.

• 8:24Tristin Engels?

  At that age, not many of us have experienced a close loss like that, so he likely did not have the coping skills to manage that loss.

• 8:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Despite how deep Herb's despair was, life moved on. He went on to attend community college without Dean and found success there as an engineering student with a 3.5 GPA. He even got engaged to his high school sweetheart. But Herb's college years also kicked off a period of exploration and experimentation, such as a foray into the world of illegal substances. This particular chapter in Herb's life began at a beach. He'd gone there with a high school buddy named Jim Gennara. Jim offered Herb some pot, and as they smoked, the two started talking about a common subject at the time: the Vietnam War, and Jim's opposition to it.

• 9:19Vanessa Richardson?

  Both of these things were new to Herb. He was generally pro-military since his dad was a veteran. Herb was even planning to enlist in the Army Corps of Engineers after college. It was also his first time trying an illegal substance, though it wouldn't be his last. He continued to experiment with weed and LSD throughout his time in school, though we don't know how heavy his drug use was. But we do know his personality went through a major shift around this time. After finishing his two-year community college, Herb enrolled at San Jose State College and decided to major in philosophy instead of engineering. Herb also went from considering a future in the military to vehemently opposing it.

• 10:04Vanessa Richardson?

  He dove headfirst into the anti-war movement, joining protests, and even registered as a conscientious objector. But the biggest change was in Herb's demeanor. He'd gone from studious and likable to unpredictable and moody. In 1968, when he was 21, Herb dropped out of college, broke up with his fiancee, and even got arrested for marijuana possession, for which he received probation.

• 10:32Vanessa Richardson?

  These events preceded what psychiatrist Donald Lund considered the first major indicator of Herb's psychosis. A year after his arrest in 1969, Herb unnerved everyone at a family dinner by mimicking his brother-in-law. But it wasn't just lighthearted fun. It was a robotic imitation of each movement, each word. According to Lund's account of the evening, Herb's actions seemed mechanical, like he was being compelled to do it. After this, Herb admitted himself to the Mendocino State Hospital. He told doctors there he mimicked his brother-in-law because he'd heard voices that told him to.

• 11:14Vanessa Richardson?

  They diagnosed him with schizophrenic reaction, the former name for schizophrenia.

• 11:19Tristin Engels?

  What you just described occurring at that family dinner is consistent with something called echolalia, which is essentially repeating words another has spoken, and also echopraxia, which is repeating their gestures or movements. These are symptoms of schizophrenia. And also, the age of onset for schizophrenia in males statistically is anywhere between the ages of 18 to 25. And in 75% of those cases, there's a prodromal stage in which they show subtle changes in behavior or functioning, like their hygiene or their interpersonal interactions, as well as substance use, in the weeks, months, or years before the onset of the condition.

• 12:01Tristin Engels?

  So based on what we know about Herb, he's almost textbook with these statistics. And what's interesting is he voluntarily sought treatment after this incident. So he's hearing voices and he's engaging in symptoms consistent with schizophrenia. But schizophrenia is a spectrum, and his recognizing that he needed treatment indicates to me that his condition has not, at least yet, impaired his insight. However, if he doesn't maintain treatment, now that he has this diagnosis, he is at a greater risk of decompensating to a degree that it will require an involuntary hospitalization.

• 12:40Vanessa Richardson?

  Is schizophrenia an Indicator of violence?

• 12:43Tristin Engels?

  No, that is a myth.

• 12:44Vanessa Richardson?

  Okay.

• 12:45Tristin Engels?

  That is a huge myth. Like I said, schizophrenia is a spectrum. And there's a very small percentage of individuals who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia, who have been violent. And what they've found in the research on that is that there's a correlation between substance use, a very high one. So when they're already diagnosed with this condition and they're symptomatic and they're using substances, they're creating more psychosis for themselves. And they become way more distorted in their reality. And they can then become violent based on what they're seeing, believing, hearing. But it's very rare and that's very severe.

• 13:24Tristin Engels?

  In fact, it is more likely that an individual with schizophrenia is at higher risk of being a victim of violence and a higher risk of harming themselves than they would another person. That is just statistically true. So I wanted to make sure I reiterate that so we're not stigmatizing the condition.

• 13:44Vanessa Richardson?

  Even with this diagnosis, Herb only stayed at the hospital for six weeks before voluntarily discharging himself. At this point, he may not have felt that he was a threat to himself or others. And since he had checked himself in, nobody could stop him from leaving. But in the months that followed his release, his delusions got stronger. The voices in Herb's head were giving him orders, dangerous ones. When he moved in with a friend in the fall of 1969, these voices commanded him to do things like shave his head and burn his genitals with a cigarette. And he listened.

• 14:24Tristin Engels?

  We refer to this as command auditory hallucinations in the field.

• 14:29Vanessa Richardson?

  The voices in Herb's head also told him to make sexual advances on his friend. These advances took on an air of violence when he told this friend, quote, "Murder is an act of love." After this threat, Herb was committed to another psychiatric hospital, this time involuntarily. While he was there, he took to carrying a Bible around and wrote letters to doctors, his parents, and various politicians. He'd sign them, "Respectfully yours, a human sacrifice, Herb Mullin."

• 15:02Vanessa Richardson?

  The implications of this sign-off weren't clear at the time, but eventually, his choice of wording would seem ominous. Herb lobbied to be released, despite making little progress. But because the hospital was overcrowded at the time, his doctors allowed it, so long as Herb took his medication and checked in at mental health clinics. They thought he'd be okay, but Herb ignored their advice.

• 15:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Over the next few years, Herb moved between Hawaii, Santa Cruz, and San Francisco. He picked up hobbies like yoga and boxing, and odd jobs here and there. During this time, he was admitted to psychiatric hospitals on multiple occasions. But his options for care had dwindled. Federal budget cuts during these years caused many state-run psychiatric facilities to shut down. And by 1972, when Herb was 25, there were few affordable, long-term care options available.

• 16:01Tristin Engels?

  Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness that requires lifelong medication management and abstinence from substances to maintain stability. For some, because it's a spectrum, it might require living in licensed board and care facilities because of the way it impacts their ability to live fully independent lives. Unfortunately, a lot of individuals with schizophrenia who are not compliant with treatment, or more accurately, don't have access to treatment, which is still an issue to this day, they end up self-medicating with alcohol and other drugs. And the combination of untreated mental illness and substances puts them at an increased risk of experiencing legal issues, housing issues, interpersonal issues, and much more.

• 16:46Tristin Engels?

  And the environment can exacerbate symptoms of schizophrenia. I've personally seen that for those who are incarcerated in a maximum-security facility, the paranoia tends to become more intense. And then this contributes to their hallucinations, especially if they experience command hallucinations. An example would be if someone's experiencing paranoid delusions that people are out to get them, or persecutory delusions where they believe people are out to harm them and are harming them, and they're incarcerated. Their hallucinations are likely going to be associated to this paranoia, and it becomes harder to reality test in these environments, because this environment of prison is already inherently unsafe. And also, research has shown that living with family can exacerbate their symptoms

• 17:30Tristin Engels?

  due to a lack of understanding within the family system of the condition itself.

• 17:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, clearly, Herb was not getting the help he needed. In the fall of 1972, Herb decided to move back in with his parents in Felton. It wasn't exactly a joyous homecoming. Once Herb arrived back at the place he'd spent his formative years, he sank even further into the clutches of his illness. And soon, those voices would become more dangerous than ever.

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• 19:08Speaker 01

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• 19:43Speaker 04

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• 20:31Vanessa Richardson?

  When 25-year-old Herb Mullin moved back into his parents' house in Felton, California in the fall of 1972, his mental state continued to deteriorate. During this time, he developed a fixation that could explain his previous description of himself as a "human sacrifice." In his studies of the Bible, Herb thought he found evidence that humanity had always sacrificed themselves to stop natural disasters like earthquakes and floods. He believed historical data confirmed this theory. Herb thought that during years of war and famine, meaning there were high death tolls, there were fewer earthquakes or other natural disasters. On its own, this idea wasn't necessarily harmful,

• 21:17Vanessa Richardson?

  but Herb heard something that turned this theory into a directive.

• 21:22Vanessa Richardson?

  In late 1972, a so-called earthquake guru named Ruben Greenspan claimed a massive quake would hit the San Andreas Fault in January of 73. This one, he said, would be as bad as the infamous San Francisco earthquake that happened on April 18, 1906, which happened to be Herb's birthday. Herb also came to believe that Albert Einstein, who died on April 18, had perished to protect anyone born on that date from dying in the Vietnam War.

• 21:56Tristin Engels?

  Individuals with schizophrenia are more susceptible to developing illusory correlations like this, in which they believe that these two different events have some relationship or meaning when one doesn't exist. So, in this case, he's making the correlation between his birthday and Albert Einstein's death into having some kind of symbolism that isn't really rooted in reality.

• 22:19Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, these separate ideas he had swirled together in his mind until something clicked into that illusory correlation, and he realized he had a job to do. According to "The Die Song" by Donald Lund and Jefferson Morgan, Herb believed he had to, quote, "make a sacrifice to prevent a repeat of the earthquake that had occurred on his birthday that was predicted for a few months hence." Herb was also being urged on by another source. At this point, he was still hearing voices. In particular, he was convinced his father was telepathically commanding him to kill, and Herb felt compelled to listen.

• 23:03Vanessa Richardson?

  One day in mid-October 1972, Herb left his parents' house to run an errand. As he drove down a secluded stretch of highway in his blue-and-white Chevy, he saw a drifter plodding along the side of the road. As soon as Herb noticed the man, a voice reverberated through his skull. It was decisive and left no room for interpretation. The stranger on the road was telepathically telling Herb to use him as a sacrifice.

• 23:34Tristin Engels?

  What you're describing there is something called thought insertion, and that's when an individual who is experiencing symptoms of psychosis believes that their thoughts are not their own, but rather have been implanted in their minds by another person or agency or some external force. This is a delusion, which means it's a fixed belief. It's a belief that they think is happening right now. It differs from an auditory-verbal hallucination, or what we would call hearing voices. Auditory-verbal hallucinations aren't a fixed belief. They are a sensory experience related to their condition, and they're different from someone's inner voice or monologue. So generally speaking,

• 24:18Tristin Engels?

  true, genuine auditory-verbal hallucinations don't sound like your own voice, but rather a disembodied voice of another, usually a familiar voice. Auditory hallucinations could also be sounds rather than voices, and they can affect all the senses. There's tactile, olfactory for your nose, your smell. So hallucinations affect all senses. They are very common in individuals with schizophrenia, and they're a result of altered neural activity in the brain.

• 24:51Vanessa Richardson?

  The man Herb had seen on the road was 55-year-old Lawrence White. Lawrence was homeless and didn't seem to have any family or ties to anyone. But Lawrence was also a good Samaritan, because when Herb pulled over and complained that he had engine trouble, Lawrence was happy to take a look. As he peered under the Chevy's hood at the perfectly fine engine, Herb appeared behind him, armed with a baseball bat. He attacked Lawrence, bludgeoning him to death. Then he hid the body in the dense brush along the road, completely out of sight. After days of pressure from the voices urging him to act, he'd finally made the sacrifice they asked him for. But the thing was, one life wasn't enough

• 25:36Vanessa Richardson?

  to prevent a cataclysmic earthquake, which meant Herb's mission had only just begun.

• 25:45Vanessa Richardson?

  Eleven days later, on October 24th, 1972, a student at nearby Cabrillo College named Mary Guilfoyle needed a ride from campus to town. She was late for a job interview and decided to hitchhike. Tragically, Herb was the person who happened to pick her up. After five minutes of driving in his blue and white Chevy, Herb pulled off the highway. He didn't wait long before taking out a hunting knife and stabbing Mary to death. Then Herb drove into the Santa Cruz Hills. Once he found a remote area, he pulled Mary's body from the car and proceeded to cut her open, examining her organs in a horrific kind of autopsy.

• 26:30Tristin Engels?

  That's a drastic difference from his first victim. I believe that this is the only victim of his that he treated in this way, so it makes it noteworthy. The first thing I'd assess is whether this act was related to his delusion that he could stop an impending earthquake by making a human sacrifice. Since he learned after taking the life of Lawrence White that one sacrifice isn't enough, it makes me wonder if he felt that the sacrifice had to be more ritualistic to appease the voice commanding him, since history does show a pattern of ritualistic behavior in human sacrifices if we're looking at cultures in the past. More importantly, what stands out most about this was that he had more time.

• 27:15Tristin Engels?

  So with Lawrence, he was running an errand, came across him, and then disposed of him in the brush along the road, right where he had taken his life. But with Mary, he picked her up, and he was in full control. So he was able to take her to a remote location, which gave him the time and the privacy to engage in this horrific autopsy.

• 27:40Vanessa Richardson?

  On November 2nd, nine days after killing Mary Guilfoyle and hiding her body in the hills above Santa Cruz, Herb struck again. He arrived at St. Mary's Catholic Church about 20 miles from where he was living at his parents' house in Felton. It was all Souls Day, a day to remember those who have died and say a prayer for their souls. That's what Herb intended to do, but when he stepped inside the church, he heard a voice in his head, a voice that insisted he kill now. Herb had his knife on him and was ready to obey. As he approached the altar, he realized a priest sat in the confessional, waiting for someone

• 28:23Vanessa Richardson?

  to discuss their sins. He went to open the priest's side of the booth, but it was locked. When the priest heard the commotion, he came out to see what was going on. The priest was 64-year-old Father Henri Tome. He was a French transplant who'd moved to California to be near family. As soon as Father Tome emerged from the booth, Herb attacked him. Father Tome managed to fight back. He landed a kick to Herb's head, stunning him, but it didn't buy him enough time to get away. Herb stabbed Father Tome until he lay dead in the confessional. It was only then that Herb realized he actually knew Father Tome. He'd taken confessions at Herb's church back home in Felton.

• 29:07Tristin Engels?

  So on the surface, it would look like this was intentional. Herb is entering a church armed with a knife and then uses it. So why enter a church with a knife? Premeditated murder would be hard to disprove in court with these case factors, but I'm actually inclined to believe that he really did not have the intention of doing that when he went in there initially. Given what we know about Herb, his delusions and hallucinations have remained untreated for some time, and he is not really in touch with reality. He likely carries that knife on him everywhere, either due to paranoia or a need to feel

• 29:49Tristin Engels?

  prepared, and I say that cautiously because this is his mind I'm speaking for, but being prepared for those commands that he's getting. So this incident feels spontaneous, like the first incident with Lawrence, because in that case, he was on his way to run an errand and saw him. So with Father Henri, he didn't think this through. It's being done in a church on a holy day of celebration. And he was not really aware of the idea that someone else could enter that church at any given moment and see him. And Mary's killing seemed much more intentional and less spontaneous. And since he was raised religious, he may have really intended to go in there to honor

• 30:33Tristin Engels?

  the souls of the lives maybe he even had taken before he was, you know, commanded to take Father Henri's life. So yeah, I honestly don't think that he had the intention initially when he walked into that church.

• 30:48Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, whatever Herb was thinking here, he didn't have long to dwell on it. As he stood over Father Tome's body, a parishioner walked in. She immediately screamed and fled. Thankfully, Herb didn't chase after her, so the woman was able to contact the police and tell them what she'd seen. Except, they couldn't match her description of Herb to anyone in the area. A further investigation of the scene revealed Herb had left fingerprints on the confessional door, but this was before databases were digitized. Without a suspect to compare the prints to, the police were stumped. Father Tome was Herb's third victim, but his murder grabbed the community in a way the others didn't.

• 31:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Lawrence White had been a drifter with few connections, and Mary Guilfoyle's case wasn't gaining traction. But Father Tome was a popular and well-known priest, and he was murdered on a holy Catholic holiday in the church. The terrified folks of Santa Cruz County wanted to know who was responsible and if it would happen again. As for Herb, it was becoming increasingly clear that he wasn't just after carnage and blood, he was in the thick of his delusions, unleashed to carry out a sadistic, fabricated mission. So by the end of December, he decided to get a more effective tool to help him. That's when Herb Mullin bought a gun.

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• 34:52Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing, and I have been waiting my whole life for a show like this one. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, three facts, each one with a whole story behind it. The worst years anyone has ever lived through. The golden age of pirates, the movies that almost never got made, the discoveries that rewrote everything we thought we knew. Carter sets the scene, Connor brings the facts, the tangents, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. The wildest stuff is real. And the real stuff is wilder than you think.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 35:50Vanessa Richardson?

  By late 1972, 25-year-old Herb Mullin had killed three people. He'd also armed himself with a 22-caliber pistol, which was especially dangerous in Herb's hands. Not only was he skilled at marksmanship, but he was a man with diagnosed schizophrenia in the thick of a dangerous delusion that killing others would prevent a catastrophic earthquake from hitting California. It seemed like Herb continuously saw things that reinforced this theory. Shortly after Herb bought his gun, Reuben Greenspan, the earthquake seer, held a press conference. He said he'd been wrong. There would be no earthquake.

• 36:33Vanessa Richardson?

  But Herb didn't think Greenspan had been wrong. It was just that Herb had taken three lives to prevent the quake from happening.

• 36:41Tristin Engels?

  This is very common with delusions. No matter what evidence is presented to the individual that challenges that delusion, they will find something that confirms or strengthens it.

• 36:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Herb possibly considered his mission accomplished at this point, but he may have wanted to carry out his imagined role as a protector. Around this time, Herb decided to join the Marines. This was a reversal from his college years, when he'd registered as a conscientious objector, but Herb had been living with his parents for a few months at this point, so maybe his father's values had rubbed off on him. He also now believed anti-war peace advocates had brainwashed him in college, and that the military was actually a worthy pursuit. Unfortunately for Herb, the Marines didn't return the sentiment. In January 1973, they rejected his application.

• 37:37Tristin Engels?

  This is not surprising because he's had multiple psychiatric hospitalizations that would disqualify him from serving in the military, not to mention his diagnosis. And most people would feel some appropriate anger at that rejection, especially, you know, depression or anxiety as they navigate the next steps in their life. If their life plan was having a military career, that can be its own grief process. The same can be true for someone like Herb who's experiencing hallucinations and delusions. Only his anger would be more magnified, and it would exacerbate his delusions. For example, he might start to experience persecutory delusions, and that's, like I said before, believing that someone close to him is out to harm him,

• 38:22Tristin Engels?

  which then fuels paranoia. And I would expect him to project whatever anger he feels about this rejection onto the person or the agency, such as the military, that he believes is to blame for the rejection, because he lacks the insight to recognize that this rejection was actually appropriate, and it's due to his own mental condition.

• 38:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Seems like he's trapped in his mind, and he's looking for his purpose or somewhere to belong.

• 38:50Tristin Engels?

  Yes, that's such a perfect way of describing that. It feels like you're a prisoner of your own mind.

• 38:58Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, according to his father, this really set Herb off. It led to a fight with his mother, which then led to William kicking his son out. After the fight with his parents, Herb moved into his own place, an apartment in Santa Cruz. According to Herb, he started to really resent the anti-war advocates who he felt had turned him against the military. By following that logic, his high school buddy Jim Gennara was the most responsible. And it had all started that day on the beach, when they'd smoked some weed and talked about the war. Herb became certain that Jim had given him the drugs with the intention of destroying his life.

• 39:40Vanessa Richardson?

  And it wasn't long before Herb got a message that would allow him to get revenge. A voice telepathically told him that Jim would be his next sacrifice. Herb happened to have Jim's address, a cabin up in the mountains of Santa Cruz on Mystery Spot Road. So on January 25th, 1973, that's where Herb headed. He arrived at 9:00 a.m. and knocked on the door. But it wasn't Jim who answered. It was a woman named Kathy Francis. When Herb asked where Jim was, Kathy explained the Gennaras had moved out months ago. She even gave Herb their new address.

• 40:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Herb also apparently believed he heard a telepathic message from Kathy. She said she didn't mind being a sacrifice. But first, Herb seemed to think he needed to take care of Jim, so he retreated from the woods and headed to Jim's new place in Santa Cruz.

• 40:42Tristin Engels?

  So let's talk about the shift in Herb's mission. He went from believing that his sacrifices were to prevent this devastating earthquake in California, and in a sense, convincing himself that these sacrifices were morally justified. He went from that to seeking revenge on a former friend. So this shift definitely indicates there are some persecutory delusions that have now formed, including his belief that Jim had drugged him with the intention of, quote, "destroying his life." So his delusions, what we're seeing, are increasing in frequency, intensity, and type. There are several different types of delusions.

• 41:25Tristin Engels?

  And we've already identified that he experiences delusions of thought insertion, delusions of grandeur, and that's because he feels he's a savior in some way by preventing this earthquake, and now from paranoid and persecutory.

• 41:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Regardless of what Herb's motivation was in this instance, Jim wasn't expecting to see his old friend. It had been eight years since high school, after all, but he also wasn't necessarily suspicious. Herb also wasn't a stranger. They'd been good friends and went through a lot together. So there likely weren't alarm bells when Jim opened the door that day, which might be why he left the door ajar when he went to the kitchen to answer the phone. In doing so, he turned his back on Herb, who raised his pistol and fired. The shots didn't kill Jim, and he managed to crawl up the stairs to warn his wife, Joan. She was in the bathroom when her dying husband rushed in and collapsed.

• 42:23Vanessa Richardson?

  Joan barely had time to react before Herb appeared behind him. He fired again, killing both of them. Once they were dead, Herb picked up his discarded gun cartridges and fled. He'd left a few things behind, though: at least one casing, a bullet lodged inside a wall, and a button that had fallen off his coat. These could have been an oversight, or perhaps his sloppiness was because he was in a hurry. After all, he needed to go back to Jim's old cabin and sacrifice Kathy Francis. He returned to the cabin on Mystery Spot Road. When Kathy opened the door, he shot and killed her.

• 43:06Vanessa Richardson?

  Tragically, Kathy's sons were at the house, too: two boys under the age of 10. Herb killed them, too.

• 43:15Tristin Engels?

  These are horrific crimes, and understandably, we want to understand what would make someone capable of this.

• 43:24Tristin Engels?

  Herb is different from the other serial killers that we have covered thus far because he's been diagnosed with a psychotic disorder, schizophrenia, and there doesn't seem to be any sign of psychopathy here. Prior to turning 18, he was a pro-social kid who played sports, stayed out of trouble, had close friends, and a girlfriend he later got engaged to. Someone with psychopathy would have had conduct and behavioral issues before or by the age of 15. So this appears, at least to me, from what we know, all organic and due to a severe case of schizophrenia. Real delusions are very fixed and difficult to challenge, and their

• 44:06Tristin Engels?

  delusions are their reality. So they're responding to perceived threats, and those threats are even more terrifying when you add command hallucinations into the mix. So it takes a lot of time and trust for clinicians to treat delusions in patients with psychotic disorders. If you challenge them too early, you become part of the delusion, and the effectiveness of treatment is at risk. We cannot risk a delusional patient becoming paranoid of their treatment providers because they'll refuse medication, they will prematurely terminate, as Herb himself has done in the past. And it might appear as if Herb is lacking compassion or a conscience, but because he does not meet the criteria of someone who has antisocial

• 44:50Tristin Engels?

  personality disorder or psychopathy, and individuals with schizophrenia do experience compassion, they also do experience remorse. But only when psychotic, they have difficulty expressing their emotions, let alone regulating them appropriately, and therefore, this isolates them even more from social supports. In the case with Kathy, it's very tragic that her sons were in the house, and I think their deaths were sort of lumped into his paranoia, his persecutory delusions, his beliefs, by virtue of just being there.

• 45:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Kathy and her boys were found by a neighbor that night. And after that, the police descended on Mystery Spot Road to investigate. Two witnesses who lived in the vicinity were able to give some information. One person saw a Chevy parked in the area between 8:00 and 10:00 a.m. Another saw a man at Frances's door between those same hours. But beyond that, the community was stumped. Kathy's partner, Bob, was away, and the family was well-liked. They had no idea who could be responsible. Down in Santa Cruz, Joan and Jim's bodies had also been discovered, this time by Joan's mother. She'd been babysitting the Gennaras' 18-month-old daughter and hadn't heard from them.

• 46:14Vanessa Richardson?

  When she went over to investigate, her worst fears were realized. It was the deaths of the Gennaras and the Frances family that really kicked off the investigation to find Herbert Mullin. Because the thing was, a gun made it easier for Herb to kill with abandon, but it also made it easier for authorities to track him down. After testing ballistics from both the Gennara and Frances crime scenes, police made an important conclusion: The murders were connected. But could they catch Herbert Mullin before he killed again?

• 47:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time as we discuss Herbert Mullin's final victims and how authorities finally stopped his rampage.

• 47:15Tristin Engels?

  Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at @CrimeHouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts.

• 47:38Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Mind of a Serial Killer ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Monday.

• 47:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios, is executive produced by Max Cutler. This episode of Mind of a Serial Killer was produced and directed by Ron Shapiro, written by Kate Murdock, edited by Alex Benedon, fact-checked by Claire Cronin, and included production assistance from Paul Leibeskind, Sarah Carroll, and Stacy Warrenkerr. Mind of a Serial Killer is hosted by Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristin Engels. Of the many sources we used when researching this episode, the one we found the most credible and helpful was "The Die Song" by Donald Lund and Jefferson Morgan.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post. "On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists, it comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves." People post the things they'd never say out loud, anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real. And every Tuesday, on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud. I'm Sabrina Deanna-Roga from Two Girls, One Ghost. And I'm Alexis Linkletter from The First Degree. Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer. And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you, and then we swap.

• 49:25Speaker 05

  And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view. It's dark, it's messy, and the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:42Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.