#249: How to Make a Difference and Find Your Purpose -- Blake Mycoskie

This episode of the podcast features Blake Mycoskie (@blakemycoskie https://twitter.com/BlakeMycoskie). Blake Mycoskie is the Founder and Chief Shoe Giver of TOMS http://www.toms.com/, and the person behind the One for One® business model http://www.toms.com/improving-lives, which helps a person in need with every product purchased. This simple idea has grown into a global movement: TOMS Shoes has provided more than 60 million pairs of shoes to children since 2006, TOMS Eyewear has restored sight to more than 400,000 people since 2011, and TOMS Roasting Company has helped provide over 335,000 weeks of safe water since launching in 2014. In 2015, TOMS Bag Collection was founded with the mission to help provide training for skilled birth attendants and distribute birth kits containing items that helps women safely deliver babies. As of 2016, TOMS has supported safe birth services for more than 25,000 mothers. In this episode we cover: Early entrepreneurial ventures The power of journaling How "the stool analogy" changed Blake's life Lessons from Ben Franklin And much, much more… This episode comes from my new television show Fear(less), http://tim.blog/fearless where I interview world-class performers on stage about how they've overcome doubt, conquered fear, and made their toughest decisions. You can watch the entire first episode with illusionist David Blaine for free at att.net/fearless http://att.net/fearless. (To watch all episodes, please visit DIRECTV NOW) http://directvnow.com/. We recorded three hours of material and only one hour was used for the TV show. This podcast episode is almost entirely new content that didn't appear on TV. Enjoy! Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This episode is brought to you by Inktel http://www.inktel.com/tim/. Ever since I wrote The 4-Hour Workweek, I've been frequently asked about how I choose to delegate tasks. At the root of many of my decisions is a simple question: "How can I invest money to improve my quality of life?" Or, "how can I spend moderate money to save significant time?" Inktel http://www.inktel.com/tim/ is one of those investments. It is a turnkey solution for all of your customer care needs. Its team answers more than one million customer service requests each year. It can also interact with your customers across all platforms, including email, phone, social media, text, and chat. Inktel removes the logistics and headache of customer communication, allowing you to grow your business by focusing on your strengths. And as a listener of this podcast, you can get up to $10,000 off your start-up fees and costs waived by visiting inktel.com/tim. That's inktel.com/tim http://www.inktel.com/tim/. This podcast is also brought to you by 99Designs http://99designs.com/tim, the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. I have used them for years to create some amazing designs. When your business needs a logo, website design, business card, or anything you can imagine, check out 99Designs. I used them to rapid prototype the cover http://99designs.com/tim for The Tao of Seneca, and I've also had them help with display advertising and illustrations. If you want a more personalized approach, I recommend their 1-on-1 service http://99designs.com/tim. You get original designs from designers around the world. The best part? You provide your feedback, and then you end up with a product that you're happy with or your money back. Click this link http://www.99designs.com/tim and get a free $99 upgrade. Give it a test run...

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Tim Ferriss?

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by InkTel. And I've used them personally. Ever since I wrote The 4-Hour Work Week, I've been asked over and over again how I choose to delegate tasks, how I do 80/20 analysis, and so on. At the root of many of those decisions is a simple question, actually two questions. Number one, how can I invest money to improve my quality of life? I use that in investing as well. The second, how can I spend a little money, or moderate money, to save significant time? InkTel is one of those investments. They're a turnkey solution for all of your imaginable customer care needs. I used InkTel during the launch of The 4-Hour Body, which was very, very involved, and they provided 24/7 customer service for my Land Rush campaign,

• 1:08Tim Ferriss?

  because it was critical for me to take care of every person who purchased my books and participated. This allowed me to focus on the things that I am better at, my strengths, like the marketing plan that we'd worked on for six months, implementing that. InkTel trains their experienced customer service reps to know your business and your products inside and out, and make your customers raving fans. They answer more than a million customer service requests every year, and they can do so across all platforms, including email, phone, social media, text, even chat. Leaving your customers with poor service, or just mediocre service, which by the way, in a competitive pool, is a huge liability.

• 1:48Tim Ferriss?

  Long wait times or unanswered messages carries a massive cost and risk to your business. InkTel removes the logistics and headaches of this type of communication, allowing you to focus on your strengths and grow your business. It can be a real competitive advantage, and I see many, many e-commerce companies and tech companies thinking of customer service. ...service as a good enough checkbox or an afterthought. And just like Airbnb used design in innovative ways to be a competitor and to win, you can do the same thing with customer service. So as a listener of this podcast, you can get up to $10,000 off. That's a big discount.

• 2:29Tim Ferriss?

  $10,000 off your startup fees and costs by visiting inktel.com/tim. So check it out. For more info, go to inktel.com, I-N-K-T-E-L dot com forward slash tim. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. I've used 99designs for years for all sorts of graphic design needs. Whether you need a logo, website, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make great designs accessible to everyone and to make the process of getting designs much, much easier. So when I first started out, for instance, testing prototype covers and getting prototype covers for the four hour body, I want the contest drop. That is one option. This is a great solution if you're looking for fast, affordable design work and the

• 3:14Tim Ferriss?

  ability to choose from dozens of options, risk-free. Let's say you need something late night, quick turnaround. Well, people in other time zones, other countries can also help you solve that problem. Since then, I've worked with 99designs on a separate path or a different option, and that is the one-to-one project service. So in a number of cases, and I'll give you one example, when I wanted to create the cover for my audiobook, The Tao of Seneca, this was a very important project to me. I decided to use their one-to-one project service. And with this service, you can invite a specific designer to your project, agree on a price, and then work together until you're satisfied. And they allow you to iterate and provide feedback and all this stuff.

• 3:55Tim Ferriss?

  And I haven't shared it yet, but we also got some incredibly good, really some of the best illustrations I've ever seen from using this one-to-one project service with a handful of different designers and illustrators. It blew my mind. 99designs makes this all very easy and efficient. So you can check out the Tao of Seneca design and other work that I, and your fellow listeners for that matter, have done on 99designs at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. Again, that's 99designs.com/tim.

• 4:34Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, Mademoiselle et Monsieur. Wait, wait. This is Tim Ferriss recording in Montreal, Quebec. The Tim Ferriss Show, each and every episode, is focused on deconstructing world-class performers from all different fields. And this episode features Blake Mycoskie. You can say hi to Blake on the socials, Twitter and so on, @BlakeMycoskie. M-Y-C-O-S-K-I-E. We've known each other for quite a few years. Blake is the founder-in-chief shoe giver of Toms. And that makes him the person behind the one-for-one business model, which helps a person in need with every product that is purchased. But there are many, many stats and some very impressive numbers related to his bio and his business, and we will get to that shortly.

• 5:19Tim Ferriss?

  I'm going to keep this initial intro very, very short. In this episode, we cover a lot. We talk about early entrepreneurial ventures. Let's try that again in English. Early entrepreneur. I think that's French? English?

• 5:35Tim Ferriss?

  All right. Anyway, early entrepreneurial ventures, the power of journaling, how the stool analogy changed Blake's life, lessons from Ben Franklin, and much, much more. This episode comes from my new television show, Fearless. 10 episodes, it's a full season where I interview world-class performers onstage in front of a studio audience about how they've overcome doubt, conquered fear, and made their hardest decisions. You can watch the entire first episode of this TV show, Fearless, with illusionist David Blaine, where he actually performs magic onstage with guests from the audience as well. You can watch that for free at att.net/fearless. That's att.net/fearless.

• 6:17Tim Ferriss?

  To watch all of the episodes, and a lot of them are physical or involve demos onstage, please visit directvnow.com. Only one T in that, not direct space TV, but DirecTV, one word. DirecTVnow.com, or you can go to tim.blog/fearless. And we've recorded three hours of material for this particular session with Blake. All of it was awesome. We used one hour for TV. So this podcast episode is not a duplicate. It is almost entirely brand-new content that did not appear on television. So I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did with Blake Mycoskie.

• 7:01Tim Ferriss?

  Welcome to Fearless. I'm your host, Tim Perez. And on this stage, we'll be deconstructing world-class performers of all different types to uncover the specific tactics and strategies they've used to overcome doubt, tackle their hardest decisions, and ultimately succeed on their own terms. By show of hands, how many of you guys own a few pairs of shoes? That is everybody in the room. How many of you own around 10 pairs of shoes? All right, more than half. How many of you do not own a single pair of shoes?

• 7:35Tim Ferriss?

  All right, that's a big fat zero. My guest tonight has built a company that's given away more than 60 million pairs of shoes to those who need them most. During a trip to South America, he recognized a unique opportunity to blend business and philanthropy. Since its founding, Toms has given away millions of shoes, helped restore eyesight, and provided safe drinking water to those in need across the globe. So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage the founder of Toms, Blake Mycoskie.

• 8:12Tim Ferriss?

  Good to see you, man. That's your stuff.

• 8:19Tim Ferriss?

  How did your mom and dad differ in terms of parenting styles?

• 8:23Blake Mycoskie?

  That's a good question. I think my dad was more serious and more kind of intellectual in the things that he taught us. And I think my mom was much more, you know, kind of hands-on, caring. I mean, they both were very caring. But I think that my mom's, you know, kind of was just so overattentive to our... And I was a first child. And so I think the first child gets that, no matter what family it is, because the parents are so afraid of messing up. I know I am. I have a two-year-old. So, but no, but my dad was always like, kind of like the moral, you know, kind of, you know, that he was the true north in the family. And he kind of was a disciplinarian when that needed to happen. And he was kind of the, you know, the intellectual.

• 9:09Blake Mycoskie?

  But what was interesting is when my mom became this bestselling author and every publishing company in the world's flying to Arlington, Texas to try to court her. And then my dad's realizing like, wow, this is like totally changing our family's, you know, kind of the whole financial life. The coolest thing I think I learned from my dad was like, he like, you know, cut down on his practice 50%, started supporting her, traveling with her, going to the talk shows, infomercials. Like, it was a total role reversal. And I think that really taught me a lot about relationships because it was like such a beautiful thing to see, even though I wasn't like, I wasn't really understanding all of what I was seeing at that age. But now, it was like, you know, she was there putting him through medical school.

• 9:54Blake Mycoskie?

  I mean, my parents literally used to sell their blood to go pay their rent. They were so poor during medical school. I mean, they had all these stories of being in New Orleans at Tulane and like going and my mom always says, my dad could get more money for his blood because it was more rare than hers and that used to piss her off. And like, all, I mean, all these things, but she was, she was, you know, working, you know, you know, as a waitress and working here and there and everything to put him through medical school. So it's all about his career for the longest time. But the moment that my mom created something and it was this, and it had so much energy, instead of him being threatened by that, which I think a lot of men would have been, he said, this is amazing, it's your turn now. And I think that's, my parents have been married for 47 years and, so yeah.

• 10:38Blake Mycoskie?

  They deserve it. So I think, you know, that was, that was something, seeing that was another part of that whole, that whole experience that really had a big impression on me, not only what my mom created, but the support my dad played in it.

• 10:57Tim Ferriss?

  Was the cookie stand your first business experience?

• 11:01Blake Mycoskie?

  I think so, and that seems like such a cliche, doesn't it? There you go. That was early day cookies. I was a little older when I was selling them myself. But I was trained at a young age. You know, it is almost like, kind of like, one of those. I mean, I feel like there's some great cliches in entrepreneurship and they're cliches because they're, you know, they're cliches for a reason. Like, having your first business be the lemonade stand or the cookie stand. You hear that. But yeah, I mean, like, I, at a little older age than that, my mom made these amazing cookies. And I recognized, my grandmother lived on a golf course. And so, on Saturdays and Sundays, you have, you know, hundreds of people who mostly know my grandmother, who is a real character, coming through the golf course.

• 11:46Blake Mycoskie?

  And so, if I sat there right on the eighth hole, I think she was on the green, and I was, you know, dressed cute and all that, like, I could sell anything, right? And, uh, and the great thing about this business model was, is I convinced my mom to make all the cookies, but to not charge me for making them. So I had zero cost of goods sold, 100% profit margins. Your mom was a terrible cookie supplier. Yeah. It was a fantastic, uh, business while it lasted. But I did that a couple summers, so I built up some clientele. And they liked the cookies so much that they wouldn't just buy them for that eating occasion. They would buy them and put them in the freezer to have for weeks. So, I, I had a pretty good thing going. I think that was about when I was like nine or 10. But yeah, it was, that was, that was the first, I think, entrepreneurial venture.

• 12:30Blake Mycoskie?

  The second one was, and what very few people know, because it's not, I don't think it's really been that public. But my dad, when I was, say, 18, freshman year in college, at this point, I had never had a real job, as my dad says. Like, I mean, I was training to be a professional tennis player. So, every single day after school, I trained from 3:30 till literally bedtime. And I was incredibly obsessed with tennis. And, uh, my parents totally supported that. But then when I went to college, I was playing college tennis. And, and I remember my dad, after the season was over, and he said, you know, "This summer, I really think you need a job." I had a younger brother and sister.

• 13:12Blake Mycoskie?

  My brother and sister had, like, they were eight years younger and four years younger. They had jobs at, like, the dry cleaners or the, you know, the clothing store at the mall or that, uh, all these different places. And they were much younger than me. And, and my dad's like, you know, "You got a college scholarship, you're doing your thing, but this summer, like, you need to have a job." And I was like, okay, like, you know, I wasn't really excited about that, but I, I, I said, fine. And it wasn't because I didn't like to work. I mean, I worked really hard, but I worked hard on something I cared about, and that was tennis. And so I talked to people and said, what's the, how can you make the most amount of money when you're 18 years old in a part-time job? Because I still need to practice tennis. And the answer I got

• 13:52Blake Mycoskie?

  time and time again was to get a job at a restaurant that had high price points, but that had a, but with pretty quick turnover. So not fine dining, but like a, you know, but, but a more expensive restaurant than, than kind of fast service. And so there was Who were you asking for advice? I, I was asking like, anyone in college that I had, that I thought was older than me, that had made some money, or that had any, any form of, you know, like, they had some work experience. And, and, and friends of mine who were older than me in school had done that, and, and had, and some of them were even putting themselves through school that way. And so there's this restaurant called Papado's in Texas. I don't know if

• 14:33Blake Mycoskie?

  you've been there. It's a couple people. So it's like seafood. Anyways, it's, it's pretty expensive, but the tables turn fast. And so I went and, and even though I had no experience, and some people, this is their career. I mean, this isn't a part-time job. It's that good of a restaurant job. But luckily, the hiring manager was a huge tennis fan. And so we talked about tennis, and she played in college at a rival school that I was playing at and all this. And so I was like, I can do this job. Like, I mean, I really had the cellar on me doing. So I got the job. So I came home, and I was like to my dad, I was like, I got a job, not only get any job, but I got like a job, I'm going to make like a lot of money this summer. And, and so the next part of, if you work in a restaurant,

• 15:15Blake Mycoskie?

  is memorizing the menu. Well, I hate memorizing things. I mean, I just like, that is like the worst for me. Like, studying and cramming for tests is not my thing. And so after like two or three days of this, I was like, I just, this is miserable. Like, I, I'm not going to be able to memorize this menu. And I found out that you don't even get paid the first two weeks because it's training. And my summer's only like Oh. nine weeks long. So I'm like, that's like 15%. I'm not even getting paid. So this is, this is sounding less and less appealing every day. So, this is where the moment came in, I think this was truly my first entrepreneurial kind of synapses went off in my brain. In our house, next to our house, there was a tennis court.

• 15:55Blake Mycoskie?

  And I clearly had, you know, learned to become a great tennis player, and I knew that there were a lot of kids in our neighborhood that could use tennis lessons, and maybe even some other adults that wanted tennis lessons. And then we had this tennis court we could use anytime. And I knew how much my parents paid for tennis lessons for me growing up, and it was a huge investment for me. And so, I just said, before I go into work this next week, this weekend, I made these flyers. And I put, "SMU, college tennis player, you know, training for the next eight weeks, kids, adults, classes, dah dah dah, the whole thing." The same way as you'd see it at like a country club. And I made 5,000 flyers, and I put them in, literally it took me like two days, every single mailbox in the entire neighborhood.

• 16:38Blake Mycoskie?

  And then at that point, I had my own phone line, and I put, changed my voicemail to like Blake's Tennis Camp or something. And I started getting calls. And like, within a week, I had like every hour of the day booked. And instead of making, like, I was charging, I was, I think at Papado's with tips and stuff, I had averaged where I was gonna be making like maybe $14 or $15 an hour, which would have been really good back then. But, teaching tennis, because I had each kid paying, you know, like $15 an hour, and I have five kids at a time, I was making like 80 bucks an hour. And so, I had this set up. My dad came home, he thought I was supposed to be at work at Papado's, and he sees me teaching like a whole group of kids, and my mom delivering cookies and lemonade to their parents.

• 17:22Blake Mycoskie?

  And he goes, "What's going on here?" And I said, you know, this, I said, "This is still a job, and I'm making four times money than I was." So that was the moment where I really felt like I kind of started my entrepreneurial journey.

• 17:37Tim Ferriss?

  Did your dad want you to get a job to earn money, or was it because he wanted you to have the experience of like reporting to someone else?

• 17:43Blake Mycoskie?

  I mean, clearly it was the latter, but I trumped him with earning more. You couldn't argue with an 18-year-old making $80 an hour. I mean, it was crazy.

• 17:54Blake Mycoskie?

  Every time I'm on an airplane, the first thing I do, if it's not getting a cup of coffee, is start journaling. I have a massive safe in my office that has hundreds and hundreds of journals. We're actually making a documentary film about the whole Tom's experience, and a big part of the film is going back and grabbing random journals and reading these entries. And you're like, "I can't believe I was saying this or thinking this." Because you tend, or at least I tended to be more, even though I'd confess all my fears, I tended to kind of use the journal as a way of positively setting the tone for the next day, the next week, the next month, you know? And it's something that I love doing, and it's something I'm really glad I did, because

• 18:37Blake Mycoskie?

  I think it helps me understand my life, which I think is good, because understanding your past is how you can really, I think, be more proactive for your future.

• 18:44Tim Ferriss?

  Totally. I have, so this is a shared habit, so I have probably about eight bookshelves worth of journals.

• 18:52Blake Mycoskie?

  Oh, wow.

• 18:53Tim Ferriss?

  I've kept them all since around the same age, 15, 16, but it started with weightlifting. Same thing. I wanted to track my progress and to be able to understand what worked and what didn't and so on. But it's turned into what I've heard described, I think her name is Julia Cameron, she wrote a book called The Artist's Way. She described journaling, the first type, the confessional, as spiritual windshield wipers. Meaning, you get that down, especially in the morning, and the way I look at it is sort of trapping my monkey mind and my anxieties on the page, so that I can get on with the day.

• 19:23Blake Mycoskie?

  Yep.

• 19:24Tim Ferriss?

  And the morning journaling habit was actually introduced to me by, and by the way, guys, like, the morning journaling specifically isn't something I started until about, I want to say, three years ago, at the recommendation, because I think as a lot of people, I had been journaling for a long time, and then I stopped for a while.

• 19:43Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Tim Ferriss?

  And I would only use it for goal setting.

• 19:45Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 19:46Tim Ferriss?

  But I didn't do that other component, which I think is so critical. And I was like, "Ah, that's like the rah rah, positive thinking, like, I don't want to even get involved, the secret, like, I don't want to deal with it." So... I then ran into a guy named Brian Koppelman, who's a screenwriter, along with his writing partner. They did The Illusionist, Solitary Man, Ocean's 13, Billions, the co-creators of that show, which is a current huge hit. He does it every morning. And he said, "You have to start morning journaling." So, since it was coming from him, I started, and it was immediate the difference in not just my performance, but also my well-being.

• 20:25Blake Mycoskie?

  Well, I think, and I haven't heard the spiritual windshield wiper, which I like, that term, because that's what it kind of does for me, is it, in anything that is like controlling my thoughts, like stress-related, or like, you know, or I feel like I have too many things on my mind, or my to-do list, or everything, once I get on the page, then I can just like singularly focus on the most important things of the day. You know, and I know you've spoken about like, do the two most important things right away in your day. And by journaling, A, it helps me organize, what are those really things? Because when you're writing about it, you kind of, it start, you know, whatever's getting the most attention typically is the thing you don't want to have to do, but that you need to do. But it really does, I think, help you clean your day.

• 21:10Blake Mycoskie?

  And then at the end of the day, too, I think it also can serve as a way to kind of allow yourself to relax and get ready for bed, and like, get over with the day, if you've had some stuff on your mind. So, it's interesting, by writing it, you would think it would make it even more something you'd be thinking about. But I find like, once I've written it, and I let it go, and I close the book, it's like the problems are in the book, and they're no longer with me anymore. And if it's a positive thing, then I think it is potentially reinforcing that.

• 21:40Blake Mycoskie?

  I'll never forget this. It's so interesting how, going back to these little moments in your life, that can really change trajectory, and how oftentimes it can be someone that you meet, or you hear, listen, or listen to, or a book you read. So, there was a guy named Bob Dedman. And Bob Dedman has passed now, but he was a self-made billionaire. And he gave more money to SMU and University of Texas, I think, than anyone ever. He grew up in a trailer park and he started off as a lawyer and then ultimately where he made his real fortune was he recognized that golf clubs, country clubs, were becoming more and more popular in the 70s and the 80s.

• 22:20Blake Mycoskie?

  But it was very expensive to maintain the golf course and the restaurant and everything. And you made money by selling the real estate around it. So what he started doing is creating clubs with multiple courses, but one crew that could service multiple courses. So now you only need one greenskeeper for three clubs and three times the amount of real estate sales, one kitchen, you know, all these things. And it became this thing called ClubCorp. When he passed away, he was the largest owner of golf courses and tennis courts in the world. And he's this amazing guy and he lives in Dallas, Texas, and he loved tennis. So he'd come out and watch our tennis matches. And he was kind of the eccentric billionaire guy who'd watch our tennis matches.

• 23:02Blake Mycoskie?

  And for whatever reason, I forget what it was, I think it was raining, we couldn't practice that day. And our coach said, you know what, you guys have seen Mr. Dedman many times watching the matches. Since it's raining today, we can't practice. We're going to watch a video of a commencement speech that he gave for the MBA program at University of Texas a couple of weeks ago. And just so you can have some more frame of reference of how wise this guy is. And the speech was basically about having a life path and thinking of your life as a stool. And every stool has three or four legs. And what are going to be the legs of your life? What would be your path? I mean, one is your talents, one is your interests, one is, you know, all these different things. I can't remember exactly what it was.

• 23:46Blake Mycoskie?

  But I remember leaving that day and I just hurt myself thinking, you know, I don't think my stool is going to be a professional tennis player and I actually think my life is about other things. And I started recognizing these kind of talents was definitely self-discipline and all these different things. And so I remember watching that video and having peace at the idea of not continuing down this tennis path.

• 24:10Blake Mycoskie?

  Another great Ben Franklin story that I've read that actually had a huge impact on early days of Toms. I was reading the biography, one of the ones many written. And so when he had the Farmer's Almanac, right? And that was, a lot of people don't recognize that that is, that's how he made his first fortune was through the Almanac. And most of the things we know Ben Franklin for actually happened after he retired aged 40. So he sold the Farmer's Almanac, had money at the time, retired, and then all this inventions and then came out of his curiosities afterwards. But one of my favorite stories was, is there was this person that would advertise in the Farmer's Almanac.

• 24:49Blake Mycoskie?

  And Ben Franklin did not agree with his ethics and his morals and his ideals, but he needed to take advertising money to keep his almanac going. And so what he decided to do was that night, he, instead of sleeping in his bed in his home, he slept in his office on the floor with only a piece of bread to eat. And he woke up the next morning and was just as happy as he was the day before. And that's when he said that he would never take advertising dollars from someone he didn't believe with. And so that was a huge thing with me with early days of Toms, is like, we will, we will stay 100% focused on the mission whether we make it or not, because we're gonna be, we're gonna be happier doing it the way we

• 25:30Blake Mycoskie?

  feel that was, is the right thing to do than cutting corners to make extra money. And that, when I read that, that was a huge thing. So.

• 25:37Tim Ferriss?

  Now, I was just gonna say, not only that, but that you can live with the worst-case scenario.

• 25:46Blake Mycoskie?

  Exactly. That's, that's what he proved.

• 25:48Tim Ferriss?

  So this is going, so we're, we're gonna keep kind of peeling back the onion here, because I mentioned Stoicism earlier. Part of the reason I suspect Ben Franklin did that is he was a huge Seneca fan.

• 25:59Blake Mycoskie?

  Yes.

• 26:00Tim Ferriss?

  And Seneca specifically, he has a collection of letters called the Moral Letters to Lucilius. Don't worry, this is gonna be long. And there's a letter, I think it's 13, called On Feasting, On Festivals and Fasting, that's it. And I know the name because I've read it so many times. And part of it is, set aside a few days, I'm making up the time period, every month where you will go. With the cheapest of dress, the scantiest of fear, sort of the roughest of bed.

• 26:30Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah.

• 26:30Tim Ferriss?

  Asking yourself all the while, is this the condition I so feared?

• 26:34Blake Mycoskie?

  Yes.

• 26:34Tim Ferriss?

  And I have a close buddy, Kevin Kelly, who's amazing. Kevin Kelly is the founding editor of Wired magazine and has done a million just incredible things. And what he would say to himself to kind of bring it into contemporary times, because he'd spent a lot of time backpacking as a kid, and he was like, I was always thrilled, even as just like a dirtbag college student backpacker, to have sleeping bag and oatmeal. He's like, as long as I have sleeping bag and oatmeal.

• 26:58Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Tim Ferriss?

  I'm fine. I don't have to sell out. So, this isn't selling out, this is dropping it.

• 27:04Blake Mycoskie?

  And so, but I had started this thing and it was, it was kind of working and I had employees and I had this responsibility and that felt much more real than going to class, like, you know, talking about Descartes or whoever, whichever philosopher I was talking about at the time. And so, I, I remember calling my dad and I was really nervous because my dad, as we talked about before, you know, is this, this really accomplished doctor, you know, did, I mean, how many years of school, college, medical school, you know, residency, I mean, he had like made a life of education. And I was gonna tell him after 18 months that I was gonna drop out of college.

• 27:44Blake Mycoskie?

  And, and I was also the oldest grandchild of, of all my other cousins and stuff too. So I was like the one everyone was looking at, you know? And, and I, you know, his response to that was, was like the most amazing and to this day, I still am kind of baffled to understand how his response was this way. But he basically said, you know, you've, you've, you've taken on this thing, you have a responsibility now to a lot of people, and it seems like you're having a lot of fun. And so, I think it's a great idea. And I was just like, this is a joke?

• 28:14Tim Ferriss?

  Huh? I have all this script left.

• 28:15Blake Mycoskie?

  I mean, I've been working like a month on the preparation for this call. Like, I was too scared to do it in person. Like, I did it, I mean, even though my parents only lived an hour away, like, I, I did this as a phone call just because if at any point in time I need just to hang up and get out of it, I could. And, and he was totally supportive and... And I think, you know, it's a big testimony to my dad and kind of his belief of like giving people the chance to fail and to learn. And but it was it was an amazing point because his confidence or his ability for me to kind of be curious and try something and then also him stressing how I had really now that I had employees, I had taken on more responsibility than just doing something for myself. It was bigger than just me. Right.

• 28:57Blake Mycoskie?

  And that has really stayed with me through all the different businesses and I think that's why we invest so much in our employees at Toms and in their full well-being, not just in their financial well-being. And also, the point was my dad and I made then too was I was going to be on my own financially. So if I dropped out, like I was being supported by my parents when I was in college, as most a lot of kids are, not every kid has that that fortune, but many of the kids at my school. But it's like, okay, if you're dropping out, like your business needs to support you, like you need to to be able to support yourself. And so that was a real difficult reality at first, too, and which created a lot of fear and a lot of like, oh, my gosh, now

• 29:38Blake Mycoskie?

  like they have to make this work because my parents aren't supporting me anymore. And but that also is a great motivation. I think that was a great move on his part. Oh, yeah, I've got to keep your feet to the fire, right? Yeah. No parental safety net.

• 29:53Blake Mycoskie?

  One of the things, a question I get all the time when I speak at universities now is they talk about people choosing to become entrepreneurs. And and I think, in my opinion, and a lot of people will disagree with me, that that you cannot choose to be an entrepreneur like you choose to be a lawyer or a doctor or a teacher. Like, I mean, if you go into it saying, okay, I'm going to study entrepreneurship and my career path is becoming an entrepreneur, that is, I think, a recipe sometimes for disaster. Because then what happens if you've chosen that path. And you don't have anything that's bothering you, you don't have any itches you need to scratch, then all of a sudden you're looking at the world of like, how can I make money? How can I create something that people want? But it's never really your want.

• 30:38Blake Mycoskie?

  It's never really your dying passion, your thing that you're willing to sacrifice everything to solve in the world. And so you end up creating a business that is to make money and to do all these things they taught you in entrepreneurial textbooks. But it doesn't ever have that same intensity of the person that just is trying to solve a problem and then ends up creating a business.

• 30:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and I should point out too, this is really, this is super important. This is, I've spoken to classes as well about entrepreneurship. And there are cases of people, say, dropping out of college and becoming huge successes, right? But there are also a lot who do not.

• 31:15Blake Mycoskie?

  Of course.

• 31:15Tim Ferriss?

  So it's not necessarily causation.

• 31:17Blake Mycoskie?

  No.

• 31:18Tim Ferriss?

  And then you also have a lot of people who say, go to a Harvard MBA program, and they do go in to become an entrepreneur, and there are successful examples. But my position has always been exactly what you said. If I'm at least scratching my own itch, I know for a fact there is one customer.

• 31:34Blake Mycoskie?

  Yes.

• 31:35Tim Ferriss?

  I know for a fact there's one customer. It's like with The 4-Hour Work Week, you know, my first book? I went in to find the book that covered it, and I couldn't find it. I was like, alright, there's Jack Welch over here, How to Build a Fortune 500 Company, not interested. Then there's like, Money's Not Important, Give Away Everything. I'm like, not sure I'm in that camp either. Where's the thing in the middle? And so it just ended up to be a collection of those experiments for myself.

• 32:00Blake Mycoskie?

  Which by the way, I mean, since you brought it up, I want to make sure at least I was able to say this on the show is like, I mean, I read 4-Hour Work Week right when I started Toms. And there's so many things that I took from that book that allowed Toms to have this incredible growth. We never had investors, which is like unheard of, when you go from 0 to 500 million in seven years. And the reason we were able to build so rapidly is we outsourced so many things. And I never would have understood how you could operate so lean had I not read that book. So I think that I'd sent Tim many pictures over the years. Me going like this with the number four because and it's usually like when I'm sailing or playing polo or doing something fun because I'm like there's a lot of people that we've

• 32:44Blake Mycoskie?

  outsourced a lot of this work to that are working really hard right now but I'm not and things are contained to do great and and I know that wasn't the only purpose of the book but it really made an impact on me and a lot of our early staff all read it because when you're building a company when you try to do everything yourself it's really hard to grow as fast as you as you can but the minute you kind of let go of some of that control and you're outsourcing as many different things you can yeah your margin might not be the same initially but you can prove the model you can get the top line sales and then you can always come back and improve the margin later by bringing that stuff in-house but anyways thank you. Well, thank you. That makes my day.

• 33:23Blake Mycoskie?

  So, one of the things I think one of the negatives of starting as an entrepreneur at age 18 is you're so focused on your work that you have very little time for other stuff in your life and I was seeing that my friends were having these much more kind of fun social lives than me because I was working all the time. So, the way that I was kind of made a deal with myself was and that was my way of still having some form of balance in my life. I mean, I think the word balance and that we could have a whole two-hour conversation about the concept of balance because I think that people look at it so many different ways but for me the only way I could even have a thought of balance

• 34:05Blake Mycoskie?

  was this 11 months you know just like going crazy as you know working as entrepreneur and then that month off in these places. So, my sister and I have been in all these amazing countries on The Amazing Race and one of the countries we kind of quickly went through was Brazil and Argentina and I always liked like really immersing myself in whatever that country was known for. So, I got a guidebook and as you know very well the first thing that that came up and that Argentina is known for is the tango. The tango. And so, I had not read your book yet and so I didn't know that it was possible to learn the tango at the level that you did.

• 34:46Blake Mycoskie?

  I was a little bit, I guess, more, well, I just didn't have the rhythm or the dancing skills. And frankly, I didn't want to spend my month off learning something that I probably thought I would never use again. So I decided not to do tango. Instead, I turned to horse polo. I grew up in Texas, had ridden horses before. Argentina is really well-known for polo. I always thought it was a very romantic, cool, like, just adrenaline, you know, sport. And so I kind of signed up for polo camp. And so, it's a place called Letarde. And so I got there and, you know, after, you know, after being there for a few days, so I loved it. I mean, it was, I got bucked off the horse a bunch, almost went to the hospital the first week.

• 35:29Blake Mycoskie?

  Like, it was dangerous, but it was like a good danger. Like, it was just like, every morning I woke up like, I'm gonna tackle this horse and I'm gonna hit this ball. And so I did that for a couple of weeks. But the other thing that Argentina is really well-known for is their Malbec wines, you know. And if you like to drink red wine, Malbecs are fantastic. And so I decided to spend, when I wasn't playing polo, time in these different vineyards and wine cafes. And so, in the wine cafes is when I ultimately met a few women that were doing some volunteer work, which ultimately led to kind of the idea that there were all these kids that didn't have shoes. I'm jumping a little forward in the story.

• 36:13Blake Mycoskie?

  But I chose Argentina ultimately because it was my way of taking a month off and recharging and learning something new, which was polo.

• 36:22Tim Ferriss?

  So, but let's jump right into it. So you mentioned meeting these women.

• 36:26Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah, so I'm, you know, this is like, I've been in Argentina for about three weeks, you know. I mean, here you have Buenos Aires, which is an amazing city. And there's some poverty and homeless and all the same things. We have problems in our major cities here in the United States. But you go an hour outside, or even two hours outside the city, where we were going a lot for the horses and the fields to play polo. And as I was seeing this, and kind of because I was going to and from the city almost every day for the polo and for getting out to the farms, I think it was... It was having an impression on me, but it wasn't something that was leading to like an action, you know, it was just kind of like, gosh, this is really intense, this is really sad, like, I can't believe there's this much poverty just an hour from this great city.

• 37:10Blake Mycoskie?

  Now, almost everyone was speaking Spanish the whole time I was there, and I was trying to learn it, but I was not doing a good job. I mean, I could kind of get around with the Spanish that I learned in three weeks, but it was getting exhausting, I mean, you're much better at learning languages and learn very quickly, as we know from reading your books, but for me, I had not been blessed with that ability yet, and so I was just like sitting at dinners most nights, listening to everyone speak Spanish, and it was like Charlie Brown's teachers, just wah wah wah. And so like, I'd be like playing mental solitaire in my head, until they finally would, you know, someone could speak English to ask me a question. So, when I hear three women speaking English, I'm just like, you know, a bee on honey, I'm

• 37:51Blake Mycoskie?

  like, whoa, what are you guys doing, dah dah, and like, it's so fun to talk to these women, and so they had been there for about the same amount of time as me, two were from the US, one was from the UK, and so they were going around to wealthy families in Buenos Aires, collecting these, you know, slightly used shoes, and then taking them to these towns and these villages outside the city where kids needed shoes. And it was amazing, because I'd just been like, for three weeks, seeing kids on the streets, not in school, clearly, and not wearing shoes, and I was amazed by the fact that this was like the limiting factor in their education, but also believed it, because I had seen all these kids on the streets, and so, you know, I'm a very curious person, and I'd been playing polo for three weeks, and I was kind of like, looking for something

• 38:36Blake Mycoskie?

  more to round out my month experience, and so I said, I said like, I've never done anything like this, but could I come and help some way, you know, I mean, if you're gonna be distributing all these shoes in the next week, like, can you just use another set of hands? And they said, absolutely, we'd love for you to come. And we got there, the kids had been told that they were gonna get shoes this day. So there was already this incredible excitement in the air. And when we pulled in, I mean, the kids and some of the parents just started like, kind of, just appearing from all these nooks and crannies in this, in this town that was kinda right next to a garbage dump. I mean, exactly what you, you can picture if you seen Slumdog Millionaire. I mean, that's what, exactly what it felt like. Uh, but there was incredible excitement and enthusiasm because they're getting these shoes. Um, and it was hard because the kids, a lot of them, uh, most of them didn't even know

• 39:21Blake Mycoskie?

  what size they were, because all they had was like a pair of flip flops and they didn't have a proper shoe. And so, trying to get them fitted and underst-, you know, that was a challenge, but we worked through it. And after we, all the kids had shoes, we played soccer and, you know, and, and we just had a great day. It's like, so he's like, he's like, "That's pretty cool." I mean, he was, he was actually kind of, you know, he thought, he firstly thought it was cool that anyone was doing this for these kids, because he knew the area. But second, he thought it was a, and it was, it was a nice gesture. Um, and so I was telling him about how awesome it was and how exciting and how much fun. And, and he was listening really intently. And, and at this time, Lejo's, you know, young guy, he's 23 years old, a great polo player, and he's kinda listening. And, and I mean, he got so excited. I mean, it was

• 40:05Blake Mycoskie?

  actually his enthusiasm, the reason I'm pretty much sitting here, because he's like, "This is an amazing idea. We have to do this."

• 40:12Tim Ferriss?

  Just to put it in perspective too, so the Argentines, especially the, uh, the porteños, right?

• 40:19Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Tim Ferriss?

  The, who live in Capital Federal in Buenos Aires, they're a mixture of all sorts of immigrant blood. So you've got like a, a lot of Italian, which is where they get the like, "Ah, ah, ah."

• 40:30Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of Italian.

• 40:31Tim Ferriss?

  They got a little bit of German, and then, uh, all sorts of other bits and pieces. But yes, a very enthusiastic bunch.

• 40:37Blake Mycoskie?

  Yes. And so Lejo, you know, professional polo player, 23 years old, doesn't know a thing about shoes, tells me, he, and it's not, it's, at first it's not we, it's, "You have to do this. Like, like, your idea, you do it." He's like, "But I will help you, you know. I, I will figure this out," you know? And so, literally by lunch, um, you know, I mean, he's, I mean, he, he, this is a guy who has two cell phones, not because he has a work phone, a personal phone, because he has two conversations going on at all times. I mean, it's like, he's talking to so and so's brother, and so and so's cousin, and someone's in the, da, da, da, da. And it's all in Spanish, so I don't understand anything he's saying, but it's, it's with enthusiasm. They don't yell at me, "Da, da, da, da." And it's just like, this is what's happening. And so... By lunch, he had already figured out someone, friend of a friend,

• 41:21Blake Mycoskie?

  who made aprugatas in their garage, you know, an hour away. And like before I can even say no, like, we're going. I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, we are in this. And I'm supposed to leave in like four days. And so, you know, in that long car ride there and back, as we really kind of talked about it, like, my entrepreneur brain started thinking, it's like, you know, I think this, I think this could work. Because first off, I've been wearing this aprugata. I love it. It's like super lightweight, super comfortable. If it gets wet, it dries right away. And there's nothing like this. I mean, the only shoes that are in this kind of canvas slip-on are like Converse or Vans. And they're heavier and they're clunkier. And I've worn those all these years. But this is a different... So I started to really kind of fall in love with the product

• 42:06Blake Mycoskie?

  as well as the idea. And then I recognized that like, this didn't have to... It was the first time I had an idea in my life that I didn't think of as a business, really. Even though I was structuring it as, we're going to sell something and give something and it's going to be a business, not a charity. I didn't think of like, I need to do this to make money. Like, I had made some money. The driver's ed business was going great. Like, that, you know, is just, is just, sales are just skyrocketing. I'm a little bit less interested in like, starting a business to make money. And, but I'm really thinking this could be fun. And that's the thing I always try to like, make sure that people really understand in terms of the beginning motivation. It was, this is, I was connected to these kids

• 42:50Blake Mycoskie?

  and I think we, I think this could work and help them. And it's going to be a ton of fun. Because now I was going to go back to Argentina four times a year. I mean, this is a great excuse to go to this country that I had fallen in love with. And Vallejo was so fun and other people were... You know, so, long story short, we get, you know, we get to this guy, you know, and he's, and we're telling him like, no, we don't want aprugatas. We want to have like, a nice insole and arch support and all these things. They're going to make the shoe cost like five times as much money. And he's like, no one will ever buy this. Like, no one will ever buy this. It's too expensive. And I'm like, no, but we got to make it, it's got to last long because these things wear out in a couple of weeks and like... Just things that even though I had no experience in shoes, I just, as a customer, I would want the shoe to look this way, but I'd want it to perform a different way.

• 43:35Blake Mycoskie?

  And so it, so you know, after a couple of days going back and forth, and meanwhile, I've now called my partners at the driver's ed business and told them it's not going to be a one month vacation, but two months this year. And so I'm taking, I'm gonna take another couple of weeks to see if I can figure out this shoe thing. And I hadn't told any of my friends what I was thinking of doing or anyone and, and, and I, you know, I just, I, I just started like calling, you know, my sister and girlfriends and, and, and friends of mine that I thought, you know, would appreciate this shoe, and not telling them the story initially. That was one of the key points.

• 44:10Tim Ferriss?

  So selling the product on the product's merits?

• 44:12Blake Mycoskie?

  I knew that, I knew that the story would get people excited. But I, I didn't want to like really go into making this a venture unless I felt the product could stand on its own. And so, and plus, I also didn't know how much to charge. So I needed to kind of get people's reaction. Like, do you like it? Number one. Number two, how much would you pay for it? You know, because it was such a different shoe than anything else out there. And so I spent a week or two really doing that.

• 44:37Tim Ferriss?

  Can I ask you a question about that? So, so you seem to have a long history of doing market research by asking women. You got the, we didn't even cover.

• 44:48Blake Mycoskie?

  Don't they buy most of the stuff?

• 44:49Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you got like the, we didn't even cover the Theta sorority.

• 44:52Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:53Tim Ferriss?

  Like collaboration with Easy Laundry. That's a whole separate episode. But did you ask primarily women about?

• 45:02Blake Mycoskie?

  I did. Even though I didn't think it was, I thought men and women would buy the shoes. But I just felt like, I didn't know very much at all about shoes in my life at that point. I knew nothing. What I did know is that every woman in my life spent a lot of money and time on shoes. Like, I mean, whether it was my mom, my sister, my girlfriend, they were always buying shoes. I never really saw my guy friends buying shoes. I mean, obviously they had to because they wore shoes. But it wasn't like they talked about it. So I figured like, let's go where, you know, this, this conversation's already happening. Let's just enter into the conversation.

• 45:33Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 45:34Blake Mycoskie?

  And so that's why initially my, my kind of quick market research was, was women. But it was so cool because I remember this time, I saw several girls over to the house, or the apartment at the time in Venice. And they thought, they were coming over for like this dinner party that I was going to arrange, but instead I had all these shoes on the table. And I, and I, and they were like, what's going on? And I was like, well, we're gonna have dinner, but before, I want to show you- To earn your dinner. Yeah, to earn your, earn your dinner. There is no free dinner. Is, uh, is, I want to hear what you think about these shoes, because I'm thinking of selling them. They come from Argentina. And I didn't tell them about the story. And as I saw them in my living room, trying them on and getting pretty positive feedback of they're cute, they're comfortable, I'd wear them with this.

• 46:19Blake Mycoskie?

  I mean, they were kind of talking amongst themselves. Then I pulled out a bunch of photos from my trip in this village, and I told them the story. And this point, I've never seen women so excited to buy a pair of shoes. I mean, they bought like, three pairs each. I mean, they were like, telling me, like, oh, I'm gonna call my friend, she's gotta get a pair. I mean, it was like, this just like- Feeding frenzy. Feeding frenzy. And it was because of the story. It was because of the idea of one for one, is because up until that point, they had never been offered an opportunity to buy something for themselves that they usually feel guilty about, right? Because I mean, women buying shoes, it doesn't always, you know, end in happiness. A lot of it's guilt, uh, because they have too many already. This time, they had no guilt. It was like the guilt-free shopping of the century, right?

• 47:03Blake Mycoskie?

  So, so they were buying multiple pairs. Um, they were telling me other, other, you know, girlfriends of theirs, they would get to buy them. Some of the girls worked in PR and were telling what stores to be in. I mean, it was just like, immediately, I was like, wow, this, we've stumbled. I mean, it was like, I hit a nerve. Yeah. Um, and, and so that was really encouraging. Um, and that's what kind of got the initial, kind of, um, the, the initial sales going, and helped me figure out how much to charge for them. And the interesting thing about the charging, and this is, I think, is like, at some level, why in the dictionary under the word karma, there should be a picture of toms, is, you know, we charged, we, we created a model that was basically to break even, not to make money. So really, like, we want, our whole goal was to give as many kids as shoes possible.

• 47:47Blake Mycoskie?

  So we wanted to charge a price that would be the least amount that we could charge a customer, and still be able to pay for another pair of shoes and have an organization. So even though we weren't a nonprofit, we went into this thinking that we're not really, profit is not the motivation. You weren't maximizing your margins. Yes. So, but the thing is, is we were making all the shoes by hand in garages in Argentina, which turns out is very expensive. Right, so we're making shoes. So when Tom started to take off and all of a sudden we were selling not, you know, 100 pairs here and there, but thousands, tens of thousands and then millions. We started large scale manufacturing. Our costs went from here to here. And then all of a sudden we had this hugely profitable business.

• 48:31Blake Mycoskie?

  And it was like, how did we, how did we get here? I mean, it was truly, I'll never forget.

• 48:36Tim Ferriss?

  The accidental profitable business.

• 48:38Blake Mycoskie?

  It was, it really was this crazy moment when I met with this factory, when the first time we were moving from like garages to factory. And I was like, um, so how much per pair? And he gave me a price and I'm like, is that for per shoe or per pair? You know, like, it was crazy how much less it was. And then we realized, okay, we can do the giving, we can do that, and we can have a good business, and we can make money. And that was like, that was the aha moment of, okay, this is what I'm gonna, you know, put all my energy behind.

• 49:06Tim Ferriss?

  So in the very beginning, what, what names did you consider for the company? And how did it end up on Tom's?

• 49:13Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah, that's a great question. So.

• 49:15Tim Ferriss?

  And how many people think your name is Tom?

• 49:17Blake Mycoskie?

  Most people think my name is Tom. I mean, that's the number one question. I mean, you know that Tim's a great interviewer because it's been an hour and 45 minutes until he's asked me that question. Nine times out of 10, that's the leading first question because it's so obvious. So the name Tom's. So I wore this shoe today in particular because A, it's one of my favorite shoes we've ever made, and it's also one of the first shoes we ever made 10 years ago. And, and, and, and, and so what happened was is I originally called them Tomorrow Shoes. And the reason they were called Tomorrow Shoes is that we thought we could make a better

• 50:00Blake Mycoskie?

  tomorrow by selling a pair today and giving a pair tomorrow. So that was our, our pitch was if you buy a pair today, we promise you that we will give a pair tomorrow to a child in need. And so, thank you. And so that was.

• 50:19Blake Mycoskie?

  And so, for the first couple of weeks, they were called Tomorrow Shoes. We're down in Argentina, we're making them, whatever. And then, we start looking at all the other kind of casual shoes in the market. Because now, we're starting to think about this a little bit more like, okay, we gotta, you know, we gotta figure out like, how are we gonna brand this thing? And, and, and so, we're looking at the shoe, and this shoe in particular, there's not a lot of places to brand it. But the most natural place would be on the back. And there's no way I could fit the word "tomorrows" on the back of the shoe. It just wouldn't fit, no matter how little the font got. So, I said, "Okay, we'll call it TOMS Shoes for a Better Tomorrow." And so, TOMS, coming from the word "tomorrow." And, and we chose the Argentine flag, because that's where they were being made. And we got rid of the sun, and put the TOMS in there.

• 51:03Blake Mycoskie?

  And, you know, and that's how, that's how it started. And that's how the name came. But, you know, it's funny, because, I mean, literally, I mean, still to this day, people call me Tom. And especially in the beginning. I mean, before anyone knew what I looked like, and they just assumed that there was this Tom. And, and, and one of my favorite, favorite stories is, in order to sell the shoes, you know, it's like anything else as an entrepreneur, like, the story is as important as the product. You gotta make sure you have a good product. But, you know, you've gotta convey your enthusiasm. And so, when I first got into Nordstrom, which was pretty early, considering how small a business we were, they said, "Well, we'll, we'll sell your shoes in these stores in like, Southern California, but you have to commit to going like, every Saturday, and really sitting there next to them, and like, telling the story."

• 51:48Blake Mycoskie?

  Because the story was what was so interesting. And so, I said, "Fine, okay, I'll do, I'm gonna do whatever," you know, like. So, I would go, and I'll never forget this one manager. I got there on Saturday morning, bright, early, I'm all excited. And I'm like, "Hey, I'm Blake, I'm, I'm here for, to sell the TOMS shoes." And she looks at me, she goes, "Oh, man, we have a problem." And I was like, "What's the problem?" She goes, "We've been advertising for like, a week that TOM is coming." And I was like, "I am TOM."

• 52:22Blake Mycoskie?

  So I used to carry my laptop. Everyone like quickly have it up like that's who you think Tom is. Look, that's me. We're the same person.

• 52:32Tim Ferriss?

  The times that we live in right now, it's very romanticized to go out and raise hundreds of millions of dollars and venture financing with something very complicated.

• 52:41Blake Mycoskie?

  Yes.

• 52:42Tim Ferriss?

  The businesses that have worked for you that we've talked about started off addressing a frustration or a need of your own, simple and low capital requirements, at least in the very beginning.

• 52:53Blake Mycoskie?

  No, the only business I ever raised money for was the business that failed, and that was the Reality Kit channel. So I mean, that was the thing about TOMS is we never raised money and because we started small, 250 pairs, then it was 1,000 pairs, then it's 2,000 pairs. And as we started growing, we were able to, you know, to get, you know, bank loans and things like that to finance inventory. But I mean, that's one of the things I think that allowed us to preserve who we are today 10 years later and 75 million shoes given and all these things happened because we didn't have that influence that comes from investors and then their demands and how fast you got to grow and things you got to do.

• 53:34Blake Mycoskie?

  So I always say to entrepreneurs, like, there are some businesses inherently you have to raise money for. But they'll, every day, if you have a good idea and you can execute, every day that you wait, your idea and your company becomes more valuable.

• 53:48Tim Ferriss?

  And the more leverage you have.

• 53:49Blake Mycoskie?

  And the more leverage you have.

• 53:52Blake Mycoskie?

  The first time I saw someone wearing TOMS was like a really special moment. You know, it's kind of like maybe an artist the first time sees their painting hanging in a gallery. You know, I mean, anyone who's been in, created something of any magnitude is proud when they see it, especially if they see it on someone that's a stranger that bought it without you like begging them on the floor of Nordstrom, right? So. About four or five months after we started Toms, and this is before we were even in Nordstrom. We were only selling them online. And mainly, the only, or the only people I've seen wearing them are my neighbors, because all of our neighbors in the neighborhood thought it was cool that we were kind of running this shoe company out of the apartment in Venice. So they're buying them. My interns and my family, of course.

• 54:34Blake Mycoskie?

  And, and, and I was in New York City and I had actually had a very bad week. I had gone trying to get new customers, like retailers like the American Rag, and I had just struck out. Like, I mean, New Yorkers wanted to have nothing to do with the shoe. And, and so I was going back to LA, kind of a little bit with my, you know, tail between my legs. I was, I wasn't even wearing Toms. I was wearing some, you know, running shoes or something because I'd gone for a run in the park earlier that morning. And then I was like rushing to the airport. And I get to the American Airlines check-in counter and I'm doing the kiosk. And not checking bags, just doing it quickly. And I look to my right and there's this woman and she's wearing a red pair of Toms.

• 55:16Blake Mycoskie?

  Mid 30s, like, wearing a pair of jeans, a pair of red Toms. And I'm like, super excited. And, but at the same time, I'm like really curious to like, where'd you get those? What do you think about them? Like, I mean, my, my marketing head, my focus group head just goes straight to it. And so I say, excuse me, um, I couldn't help but notice these red shoes you're wearing. They're, they're really cool. What are they? And I'm still doing the check-in because I don't want to act like I'm too interested, right? And give it away. And, and, and she looks at me and her eyes kind of widen. And she goes, "They're Toms, Tom's shoes." And I'm like, "Oh, that's cool, you know? And that's great." And, and I'm kind of like just taking, you kind of wait and see what she says. And, and, and I could tell she was like looking at me like, "No, I have more to tell." So I kind of turned to her.

• 56:00Blake Mycoskie?

  And, and she looks at me like really intently and she goes, "No, I don't think you understand. This is the most amazing company in the world. When I bought this pair of shoes, they gave a pair to a child in Argentina." And I'm like, "Oh, really?" And she's like, and then she continued, she goes, "And there's this guy, he lives in Los Angeles. I think he lives on a boat."

• 56:22Blake Mycoskie?

  He's eight feet tall. And she literally starts telling me my life story, word for word, like with more passion than my mom tells me. I mean, it was incredible. And so she's going on and on about this and that. And at some point, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, I have to tell her who I am now. And like, and there's other people listening. I mean, she's animated. And so I say to her, I say, excuse me, actually, sorry to interrupt, but, you know, I'm Blake. I started TOMS. And she just pauses. And it's like deer in headlights. I mean, you could hear a pin drop. And she looks at me. She looks at me again. She goes, why did you cut your hair?

• 57:06Blake Mycoskie?

  But the interesting thing about that question, and what I learned, a huge business lesson in this question. The reason she knew I cut my hair is she had watched every video on YouTube about our shoe giving. Wow. You know, this is right, 2006, right when YouTube, same year YouTube launched. And because, you know, there wasn't a lot of content on there, our videos got a lot of views back then. Because there wasn't, and she'd watched it and seen it. And so I realized that she wasn't just a customer. I mean, she took the time out of her check-in to tell me the entire story. I mean, she was an evangelist for TOMS. And so like, so much that like, she, you know, kind of didn't recognize me because I had cut my hair short like this. And before, the video was really long and bushy. And so it was so funny because on the way home,

• 57:50Blake Mycoskie?

  I realized, like, we didn't need to focus on marketing and advertising. That's not what got this girl to buy a pair of shoes. We need to focus on doing our giving and making sure that content was easily shareable with our customers. Because if she was this passionate to tell a stranger at the airport, surely she had posted on Facebook about it, tweeted about it, probably bought a pair for her friend for Christmas or whatever. And so it was an amazing experience for me. And it really has kind of dictated our whole philosophy on marketing for the past 10 years. And that is, if we do what we say we're gonna do, and we create interesting content that allows our customers to share with pride what they've done, because it's really them. And we set it up. But unless we sell shoes, we don't give them away.

• 58:33Blake Mycoskie?

  So it's what they've done, then the momentum can build. And I think that's why we had this exponential growth.

• 58:42Tim Ferriss?

  So this is a related one. This is actually from the extended family known as the internet. Facebook. This is not like the drunk angry uncle though. This is a nicer member of that Christmas party. So Daniel Roddick, I think that's his name. And I'm going to shorten this a little bit, but there's a term I've heard used before called WFIO moments, pronounced whiffio, which stands for we're fucked, it's over. And you know, essentially, when your business, it seems like it's on the brink of death or failure, running out of cash, PR crisis, move by competitor, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So the question, and it goes on. This is a long question, but I was just wondering if you had any particular examples.

• 59:23Blake Mycoskie?

  Whiffios.

• 59:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, from Toms. If there were any sort of existential threats when you're like, oh, boy.

• 59:29Blake Mycoskie?

  There is one, just, I mean, as clear as day. This is, in the second year, we now have made that transition from making them in garages to a big factory. And knowing nothing about how to negotiate with factories, and factories can smell ni vete like a mile away. We totally got screwed over by a factory. And we had taken all these big orders, we had taken all the cash that we had, I mean, not just Toms, but like me personally, out of my personal checking account, to order all these shoes, knowing that we were going to sell them for a profit, and then we would be able, and so it was just a, it was a cash flow thing. And I'll never forget, I was with my dad, and it was actually the day I was getting

• 1:00:13Blake Mycoskie?

  the sailboat that I was going to live on. I lived on a sailboat for six years. It's a whole nother story about essentialism and not having stuff that you don't need in your life and simplifying your life, which I was very intent on doing after spending so much time in Argentina. So I'm going to get the boat with my dad, like it's supposed to be a great day in my life, and I get a call, and it's Sean, actually, the guy you saw, and he's like, we have a problem. And I'm like, what? He's like, every single sole on the shoes are falling off. Like, they're not like, not good quality, like, they're falling off. Like, the glue they used at the factory got hot on the way here, whatever, it's like, it's disintegrating, and like, all these people are expecting their shoes, and all your money is in this.

• 1:00:57Blake Mycoskie?

  And like, we don't have money to order my shoes. I mean, it was definitely a whiffio moment, if there ever was one. And, and... You know, it was, it was, I, I really did think it was going to be over. Because I mean, it was like, it was, it was, it was just, one, we were going to call these people and say we didn't able to deliver, and it would take weeks, if not months, to get them. And this is at the point which we now have big customers, you know, like the Urban Outfitters and Nordstrom's, and they don't just like take this news lightly. And the second was, is all our cash was in there. I mean, there was no more cash or shoes. I mean, ultimately, the way we saved it was we were able to convince another factory that if they would make the shoes without any initial payment, that we would be able to pay them within 90 days,

• 1:01:41Blake Mycoskie?

  and we would switch all of our business to them, and they did, and they were a great factory for a long time. But I didn't even know that was a possibility. That, that came after like days of like probably heavy drinking and like, you know, putting myself in a hole and wish I couldn't come out. But yeah, I mean, and I think every business has that, and ultimately, if you get through it, it makes you stronger.

• 1:02:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Blake Mycoskie?

  But the truth is, is it probably kills a lot of businesses, too.

• 1:02:03Tim Ferriss?

  In retrospect, were there any warning signs or anything that you could have? Are there ways you could have avoided that?

• 1:02:12Blake Mycoskie?

  In that particular case, I don't think so, because we didn't have the brand reputation or the cash flow to have any leverage over factories. But we needed factories, and at the same time, I just, I, we didn't have the experience level to know how to protect ourselves from that. Now, in hindsight, there's lots of things you can do to protect yourself with factories and payment terms and all these things. So I think it was just a situation where we were unlucky and, and, and a factory kind of took advantage of us. And they probably thought they would never get another order anyways, so they didn't take it too seriously.

• 1:02:53Tim Ferriss?

  And so if you were advising somebody, and I know this is going to be a small percentage of the audience.

• 1:02:57Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Tim Ferriss?

  But actually, I mean, a growing percentage, we have people now launching businesses on Kickstarter. It's like, okay, good news, bad news, right? Like, we've never made anything, but we have 5,000 orders. We've sold, we've told a really good story.

• 1:03:07Blake Mycoskie?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Tim Ferriss?

  What advice would you give to someone who's looking at manufacturing for the first time?

• 1:03:12Blake Mycoskie?

  I mean, I would say the best thing to do when you're manufacturing for the first time is have the manufacturing as close to you physically as you can, even if it's a huge difference in margin, difference in price. Because what you're trying to do in the beginning is prove a model. You're not trying to necessarily make money. So if you can, if you, if it costs... Eighty percent more to do it in your hometown than doing it overseas. I would say do it in your hometown where you can watch it, be there, then you don't have the surprises. The thing that kills you with manufacturing, and especially from a far off place, is the surprise when it comes not being what you thought it is, and by that time it's too late.

• 1:03:53Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:03:53Blake Mycoskie?

  So the nice thing is, is if you're, or you just move to wherever you're manufacturing. I mean, one of my favorite entrepreneurs is Fernando in Santiago who started Reef sandals. And these are Argentines actually as well, that I got to know through the years being in the shoe business. And Santiago moved to Brazil and lived like at the factory for those early years of Reef to literally watch every shoe being made, and that's why their quality was so good, and that's why they built such a great company. So sometimes if you can't make it locally, you go there. But manufacturing is where most, I would say, of these businesses never get off the ground or end up imploding, is because you just, it's one strike and you're out typically.

• 1:04:34Tim Ferriss?

  That's the case where you really have to have boots on the ground. I was talking to a buddy of mine who's the founder, or maybe co-founder, of an apparel brand called Sitka. So it's kind of like, if you want to think the Lululemon for hunting and outdoor gear. Really high quality stuff, and he went to China for the same reason. And this guy, I've had some drinks with him. And the way that he negotiated his terms that he needed, because they were like, yeah, can't be done. No, like everything's gonna be late. Similar to, it's like, oh my god, this is an existential crisis. So he went to China, and he sat there, he needed a translator, and they're doing like cheers, cheers to this, cheer to the chairman, cheers to this. And he's like, do they have to drink every time I do a cheers?

• 1:05:16Tim Ferriss?

  And the translator's like, yes, they'd be rude not to. And he's like, okay. And so he just, he had everybody completely blitzed. And then the big boss is like, definitely next week, no problem.

• 1:05:29Blake Mycoskie?

  Did you see a recording of it?

• 1:05:31Tim Ferriss?

  And so he got his gear on time. Anyway, not my recommended negotiating tactic necessarily. There are books and so on you could read.

• 1:05:40Blake Mycoskie?

  If I lost the material possessions, or the wealth, or the ability to do some of the things that my family gets to do, you know, it kind of goes back to what Tim was saying, the guy with the sleeping bag and the oatmeal. Like, I feel like I've, you know, there's enough people that would help me get that oatmeal in that backpack and that sleeping bag, and me and my family would probably still live a great life. I mean, the thing that I've learned the most, I think it's the most, from my travels around the world, and I've been to every country and seen almost every hardship that is imaginable, is sometimes the people who are living the most poverty, the most rural, are also the happiest. And the reason is, is...

• 1:06:26Blake Mycoskie?

  But the reason is, is because their life is so simple that they spend their time in relationships. Like, it's amazing to see, I'm very close with many families in Ethiopia, because we spend a lot of time there, we do manufacturing there, and when you get to rural Ethiopia, you see the amount of time that they are just spend in laughter, and games, and playing. And it's because there's not much else to do, because they don't have anything else. Like, I mean, you know, I mean, basically, their only daily chores is making sure they have water and food, and other than that, it's just all about relationship and loving on one another. And so, I think that, you know, it's a tricky time we live in now,

• 1:07:10Blake Mycoskie?

  because we get caught in the cycle of having to, you know, to support these lifestyles that we create. And oftentimes, we spend so much money trying to do that, that we don't end up enjoying the life that we have. And so, I will say that that's one thing that in my maturing and learning and studying over the years, I have gotten much better at and put much more premium on. And I don't work 11 months, you know, lights out, and then just for that one month off anymore. I make sure that I am experiencing, I mean, yesterday, Tim texted me...

• 1:07:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say.

• 1:07:47Blake Mycoskie?

  He texted me to have a pre-call. And I was surfing all day in Santa Barbara. Didn't have my phone on, didn't get back to him until 10 o'clock at night. Because I was like, you know what? Like, I had a couple really long days before this. I want to have a lot of fresh energy for this today. So I took the whole day and went surfing with one of my best friends. And, you know, spent time all morning with my son. And so, those are the things that are important. And it, those, and I didn't always realize that. So, so I think that, you know, you really, you can't lose everything when what you care about are the people and the memories you have.

• 1:08:27Tim Ferriss?

  Ladies and gentlemen, Blake McCoskey.

• 1:08:29Blake Mycoskie?

  Oh, thanks.

• 1:08:33Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the, the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 1:09:15Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. I've used 99designs for years for all sorts of graphic design needs. Whether you need a logo, website, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make great designs accessible to everyone and to make the process of getting designs much, much easier. So when I first started out, for instance, testing prototype covers and getting prototype covers for the Four Hour Body, I want the contest drop. That is one option. This is a great solution if you're

• 1:09:59Tim Ferriss?

  Looking for fast, affordable design work and the ability to choose from dozens of options, risk-free. Let's say you need something late-night, quick turnaround. Well, people in other time zones, other countries can also help you solve that problem. Since then, I've worked with 99designs on a separate path or a different option, and that is the one-to-one project service. So, in a number of cases, and I'll give you one example, when I wanted to create the cover for my audiobook, The Tao of Seneca, this was a very important project to me. I decided to use their one-to-one project service. And with this service, you can invite a specific designer to your project, agree on a price, and then work together until you're satisfied. And they allow you to iterate and provide feedback and all this stuff.

• 1:10:43Tim Ferriss?

  And I haven't shared it yet, but we also got some incredibly good, really some of the best illustrations I've ever seen from using this one-to-one project service with a handful of different designers and illustrators. It blew my mind. 99designs makes this all very easy and efficient. So you can check out the Tao of Seneca design and other work that I, and your fellow listeners for that matter, have done on 99designs at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. Again, that's 99designs.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by InkTel. I've used them personally. Ever since I wrote The 4-Hour Work Week, I've been asked over and over again how I

• 1:11:27Tim Ferriss?

  choose to delegate tasks, how I do 80/20 analysis, and so on. At the root of many of those decisions is a simple question, actually two questions. Number one, how can I invest money to improve my quality of life? I use that in investing as well. The second, how can I spend a little money, or moderate money, to save significant time? InkTel is one of those investments. They're a turnkey solution for all of your imaginable customer care needs. I used InkTel during the launch of The 4-Hour Body, which was very, very involved. And they provided 24/7 customer service for my Land Rush campaign because it was critical for me to take care of every person who purchased my books and participated. This allowed me to focus on the things that I am better at,

• 1:12:12Tim Ferriss?

  my strengths, like the marketing plan that we'd worked on for six months implementing that. InkTel trains their experienced customer service reps to know your business and your products inside and out and make your customers raving fans. They answer more than a million customer service requests every year, and they can do so across all platforms, including email, phone, social media, text, even chat. Leaving your customers with poor service or just mediocre service, which by the way, in a competitive pool is a huge liability. Long wait times or unanswered messages carries a massive cost and risk to your business. InkTel removes the logistics and headaches of this type of communication,

• 1:12:55Tim Ferriss?

  allowing you to focus on your strengths and grow your business. It can be a real competitive advantage. And I see many, many e-commerce companies and tech companies thinking of customer service as a good enough checkbox or an afterthought. And just like Airbnb used design and innovative ways to be a competitor and to win, you can do the same thing with customer service. So as a listener of this podcast, you can get up to $10,000 off. It's a big discount. $10,000 off your startup fees and costs by visiting inktel.com/tim. So check it out. For more info, go to inktel.com, I-N-K-T-E-L.com/tim.