#2504 - Skylar Grey

Skylar Grey is a Grammy Award-nominated singer, songwriter, and producer. Her new album, “Wasted Potential,” is available now.https://ffm.to/sg_wastedpotential. OPRwww.youtube.com/@SkylarGreywww.skylargreymusic.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Get 30% off + 2 free gifts at https://ARMRA.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Show you my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  Good to see you.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  What's happening?

• 0:15Speaker 02

  You know, I'm putting out an album.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  This is the power of music. I told my wife that you were coming on and she said, I don't want to get involved.

• 0:27Joe Rogan?

  She said if I die on my funeral, I want her song, "I'm Coming Home."

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Really?

• 0:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  I was like, ooh. I was like, that's a heavy thought. And then I listened to it in the gym and I was like, God damn. I listened to the version where you were on the piano. It was like a solo concert. And I was like, God.

• 0:50Joe Rogan?

  That's such a, it's such a great song, but it's such a crazy thought.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:57Joe Rogan?

  That someone would want.

• 0:58Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 0:59Joe Rogan?

  A very specific song.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Man. Heavy way to start the podcast.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  I know, but, but that's, you know, that's the emotion of real music.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13Joe Rogan?

  It's like you sent me a text message about AI, you know, because you sent me one of your songs and you're like, AI is never going to recreate this.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  I said something like, I don't think it's capable of writing stuff with this much emotion, yet.

• 1:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not real, you know?

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31Joe Rogan?

  It sounds cool. That's what AI does. They, there's cool songs that come from AI. But there's always going to be, and I completely agree with you, there's always going to be a thing, well, you know, a person wrote it, that they sat down and they wrote it and there's this connection with their, their spirit and their creativity that comes out. And that's what people love about music, other than stuff that sounds. I like, I like AI music because it sounds cool, but I know what it is. I know it's just a robot.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's, you know, sometimes it's good for certain things, but the type of music that I make personally, it's like very therapeutic for me to write. I always am writing from like a true emotion, so. Um, yeah, each.

• 2:22Joe Rogan?

  Marshall's giving you true emotion right now.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. It all has its place, though. I think AI is an interesting, it's just like another tool, I feel like. That, um, you know, when autotune first came out, people were bitching about that. And even like, my first albums I recorded with my mom when I was a little kid, we did it on two inch tape. You know, so there was no computer involved. So then computers got introduced and people were bitching about that, like, this isn't real music.

• 2:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  You know, it's just like all these technological advances. To me, I see them as just tools that creatives can use to get their vision across.

• 3:02Joe Rogan?

  What was, uh, what was Peter Frampton using back in the day? It was like a tube or something, right?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 3:09Joe Rogan?

  That, you, do you remember like, you, you, you know what that stuff is, Jamie, right?

• 3:16Joe Rogan?

  It's like a tube you put in your mouth or something?

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's like a straw and like the microphone picks up the sound, so the sound would go through the tube into your mouth and then the microphone picks that up and you're using your mouth.

• 3:26Joe Rogan?

  Cause I remember people hating that, like way back in the day, people were hating that, like, that's not his real voice, like, what is he doing? Why is he putting it through that thing? You know?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 3:38Joe Rogan?

  But there's always, I mean, look, there's always gonna be tools that people use to enhance creativity, but.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:44Joe Rogan?

  The thing that's weird now is that they're making entire song, like, they can make a total Skyler Gray category.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  And they sound pretty good.

• 3:52Joe Rogan?

  They sound really good, you know, that's what's crazy. It's your voice, it's your actual voice.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  You know, cause it's so new.

• 3:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  So.

• 4:01Joe Rogan?

  There was an entire podcast with me that I never did.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a whole conversation with me and Steve Jobs. I never met Steve Jobs. It's just me and Steve Jobs talking about stuff.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Is it the visual too?

• 4:12Joe Rogan?

  No, it's not the visual. This one's just an audio one, but eventually I'm sure there'll be a visual one of that. There's definitely ones of me talking to people I've never talked to, because like, people pretend they're, they've been on the show, you know, for fun.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

• 4:27Joe Rogan?

  Conversation with me. It's very. Very strange, you know?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Very strange.

• 4:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we're living in a weird blurry time.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:35Joe Rogan?

  Like the lines between real and not real are are getting very blurry. Like it's an introduction to the matrix. Like we're getting like the first whispers of the fog of the matrix a- as it envelops us.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:48Joe Rogan?

  Getting just these little clouds like, oh, this is weird. Then eventually it's just gonna be. We're gonna just be in the full cloud of the matrix.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  But I see people questioning everything now. They're like, is this real?

• 5:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Everybody's sussy about everything now.

• 5:02Joe Rogan?

  You should.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:03Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there's people like prominent news people who've reposted s- stories with videos in it that were like straight out of a video game.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:12Joe Rogan?

  It's very, very weird time we're in.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Very.

• 5:15Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 5:16Speaker 02

  But I think it's also exciting.

• 5:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's definitely exciting.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  You know, it's fun.

• 5:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, it's weird. Anytime things are weird, anything, things like, oh, like.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:24Joe Rogan?

  But that, I think it makes you really appreciate actual things, like real physical things.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with that.

• 5:31Joe Rogan?

  Real connection with people, real art.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:35Joe Rogan?

  You know, I think that's what's gonna happen a lot with AI, like people's actual artwork, like getting something like, like this chimp sculpt. This is made with thimbles, symbols, with zilch.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I see that.

• 5:48Joe Rogan?

  This guy Shane Against the Machine. He makes really. Yeah, he's an artist, makes cool stuff, but like, I know a guy made that.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:56Joe Rogan?

  You know, like when I'm fucking around with this, like this guy made it.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it'll make us value real, human-made art more. And value like nuance and mistakes and things not being perfect, you know?

• 6:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I mean, that's part of what's relatable.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:16Joe Rogan?

  About art, is it, and it's part of what makes us appreciate that it did come from a person. You know, like when you look at a really cool painting, like that painting, like that doesn't, that's not perfect.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:27Joe Rogan?

  It's not supposed to be perfect. Just supposed to be an expression.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 6:32Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's it's like a person's work. It's like their whatever they are, their thing, their essence is in that canvas.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 6:40Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:43Joe Rogan?

  How'd you get started doing music? How old were you? You said you recorded with your mom when you were little?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:48Joe Rogan?

  How old were you?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  I was six when I did my first show.

• 6:52Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. So she was in like folk bands and stuff and she also plays Celtic harp. And my dad was in a barbershop quartet.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  My great grandma was an opera singer. So I just was like born into an extremely musical family and um. When I was like two. Uh. We were singing Happy Birthday to one of my aunts and I started singing a harmony. And my mom was like, what is going on? How's a two year old singing harmony? I wasn't even able to like say all the words, but the notes I was singing were like the harmony part. And then with all her bands that she was playing with all the time. I would be at the rehearsals and chiming in and then they would like bring me up on stage to do little guest appearances and. Um. It was just very clear that that's what I wanted to do.

• 7:42Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  And so when I was six. We put together our first like hour long set and I played at a library, me and my mom together.

• 7:52Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  And it was a Mother's Day show, Madison, Wisconsin.

• 7:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  So I'm from Mazo Maney. It's like a fifteen hundred person, really small village, basically, in Wisconsin. Um. And so then. I just loved it. And so we started touring around the Midwest and played a lot of. Really random venues like um. Elementary schools, libraries, uh, women's health conventions. I think the, one of the biggest shows I ever did was actually a Boy Scouts thing. And it was like fifteen hundred Boy Scouts.

• 8:31Joe Rogan?

  How old were you?

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Um, I so I did this from the time I was six till I went solo, I think when I was twelve or.

• 8:43Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:45Joe Rogan?

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• 9:28Joe Rogan?

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• 11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:36Joe Rogan?

  At a very young age.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it wasn't like I was like a Disney star or something, so it wasn't like on a big scale.

• 11:41Joe Rogan?

  It was. It was organic.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  It was small and, but I made decent money and, um, I mean, for a kid. And I saved it up and then when I was 12, I bought my first grand piano with the money I'd saved up.

• 11:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so then I started writing songs at the piano, like pop songs and stuff, solo. And it wasn't cool at that time to be singing with my mom anymore. Like, you know, kids get really mean in middle school. And they would like make fun of me because we were singing the silliest, like, like, "We are the colors of the rainbow" and "Never smoked tobacco" and "My grandma slid down the mountain." These are some of the song titles. So it was very silly and I got made fun of. And so I wanted to sing pop songs. And I went solo and my mom was not stoked about that. Because like it had become her career.

• 12:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Singing with me, like we, I would miss like, I would miss so much school. Um, sometimes I had six shows a week. So it was like a lot.

• 12:44Joe Rogan?

  Hey, lie down, buddy.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  But.

• 12:45Joe Rogan?

  You're huffing and puffing. Come here, let me kiss you and then lie down, come here. Come here, buddy, give me a kiss, let everybody see you. Come on down. Give me a kiss.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Oh, look at that.

• 12:57Joe Rogan?

  I love you too. Now, lie down. Go lie down, buddy, go lie down. Um, so when you say your mom wasn't stoked about that, was that like real friction between you guys?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  No, I mean, she was really supportive, but like, like I said, it had become her career singing with me. So it was like. She had to adjust her whole lifestyle and everything for that.

• 13:19Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  You know?

• 13:20Joe Rogan?

  That'd be a hard decision for you then, knowing that that's gonna bum your mom out.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yes and no. I just like, I was so driven.

• 13:30Joe Rogan?

  At twelve?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 13:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, what was the feeling? Like, when you say you're so driven, like, what was it inside you that made you wanna?

• 13:40Speaker 02

  I just loved making music and performing and writing. And I knew I just, there was no, like, option of anything else I would do with my life. And I knew I wasn't gonna sing with my mom my whole life. You know? So, I had that sometime.

• 14:00Joe Rogan?

  At twelve?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:03Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy. God, that's wild.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  And I hated school so much, and I begged to be homeschooled, and we couldn't figure that out, so I ended up dropping out when I was sixteen.

• 14:18Joe Rogan?

  Why'd you hate it so much?

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Um, because I was so focused on music. I felt like I was wasting my time in school.

• 14:26Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. There was this teacher that, my algebra teacher,

• 14:35Speaker 02

  she said something to me that kind of lit a fire under my ass in a good way.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  She told me, "Music isn't a career."

• 14:45Speaker 02

  And I was like, "I'll show you, bitch."

• 14:49Speaker 02

  And so I dropped out, and I never went back after she said that.

• 14:53Joe Rogan?

  There's so many teachers that have influence over children that say things like that. And it's such a crazy irresponsible thing to say.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz I had, I had missed, or I hadn't done my homework because I had a show

• 15:10Speaker 02

  the night before this, and then we had a test, and I aced the test. I was a good student. I had like a three point nine. But I aced the test and but she was like, but you gotta do your homework, just like everybody else in this class. And I was like, I had a show, I couldn't, I didn't have time. And she was like, well, music's not a career.

• 15:28Joe Rogan?

  That's such a crazy thing to say, cuz it's clearly a career. Like, why do you listen to music? Who's making it?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  I know.

• 15:34Joe Rogan?

  When you go to a concert, people are paying, is there someone, is there someone on stage? Is that a career? Like, what the fuck does that mean?

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Like, small town, small town Midwest, it's like, I mean, I guess everywhere.

• 15:44Joe Rogan?

  It's everywhere.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  People push the go to school, you know, get a, get a good job. Um, and I just wasn't on that path, ever.

• 15:55Joe Rogan?

  It's very wild to be that focused at such an early age. But it is, there's, it's something fun about those kind of, like, I'll show you bitch, stories.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, I could've taken that and been like, I could've gone the other direction with that comment, you know?

• 16:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, you could've said, oh my god, I don't wanna be a loser, I don't wanna be homeless.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  Like, okay, she's right, and she's an adult, so she must know.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:19Joe Rogan?

  But, yeah.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  I did the opposite, it gave me a fire.

• 16:21Joe Rogan?

  But you get older and you realize, like, there's a lot of people that are teaching, they're like, they're just teaching cuz they need a teacher. It's not because, like, we found this magical person who's really good at educating children. Really good at, like, shaping their minds, their futures.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:35Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  There's some good teachers.

• 16:37Joe Rogan?

  A lot, there's a lot of them.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  I had some really good teachers, but she was not one of them.

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  It's hard to find someone that's really good at a job that doesn't pay very well.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  It is.

• 16:46Joe Rogan?

  That's part of the problem.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  That is part of the problem.

• 16:48Joe Rogan?

  And it's almost like, you would think that if the future of humanity is very important, one of the most important things would be education. So one of the most important things would be finding the best teachers, and how would you do that? You would pay them

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:04Joe Rogan?

  really well.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:06Joe Rogan?

  Like, if we really cared about the future of Earth,

• 17:10Joe Rogan?

  we would spend a ton of money, uh, making sure that these teachers are really well-educated, and that they really understand psychology, they really understand how to motivate children.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  You would think.

• 17:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  That would make a lot of sense.

• 17:24Joe Rogan?

  Right, we're, it's so odd how intelligent and capable and innovative we are and yet so fucking foolish. At the same time. That we just allow that, generation after generation, shitty teachers not getting paid, good teachers not getting rewarded. You know, and then they, they retire and they're like, what was that all for?

• 17:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:45Joe Rogan?

  Nobody cared. Nobody, nobody appreciated what I was doing. You have to fight for your pension, like. Ugh.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  The whole system is so messed up.

• 17:56Joe Rogan?

  But the education system's so crazy.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:59Joe Rogan?

  Because, I mean essentially, I mean, uh, when you go down the tinfoil hat road, it was essentially designed to make factory workers. I mean, you know, there wasn't really formal schooling like we have now, where children go at an early age and show up and, you know, and leave their parents all day. That's like the fairly recent thing in human history. And the reason why they got people really early is because that's how you can brainwash them.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:28Joe Rogan?

  You get kids when they're fourteen, fifteen years old, they kinda already have their own view of the world. It's hard to shape them. But you get those little five-year-olds, six-year-olds, and then if you get preschool, you know, cause a lot of people have to work, you know, parents, both parents work. So then you can get the kids real early and then you can make little workers out of them.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Like walk in a single file line and.

• 18:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  It's like, control everything.

• 18:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. Sit in class, sit straight ahead, pledge allegiance. Yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Raise your hand.

• 19:00Joe Rogan?

  If you can't pay attention, you must have a disease, so we're gonna give you some medication.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 19:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then you're like.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  I probably should have had some of that medication, to be honest.

• 19:12Joe Rogan?

  Probably not. No, no.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I definitely think I'm an undiagnosed ADHD case, but I feel like almost everybody is.

• 19:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, anybody that's any good at anything. I, we had this conversation yesterday with my friend Eric. And I was like, I think it's a fucking superpower. I really do. I, I, I don't think it's negative at all. Yeah, there's a lot of shit I can't pay attention to if it's boring. If it's boring, I check in.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Super hyper focused on things.

• 19:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, like I don't need to sleep. Like I could stay up for days if something is really interesting, if I get focused. Which is why I have to stay away from video games and stuff like that.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Sucked in for hours.

• 19:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a problem. But, but it's not just video games, like anything that I really love. But things that I, I'm not interested in, it's like I can't absorb it. It just goes in and that's what high school was like for me. It was like I'd be in class, I'd be like, this is torture. But then I'd find something I really loved and I'd be like fully locked in. But it took a while for me to, cause I just thought I was gonna be a loser. I'm like, clearly I can never hold a job. I'm not, I, I can't take direction. I'm not, I can't pay attention. Like there's something wrong with me. Like I'm not, I'm just gonna be one of those people that's just kind of a fringe person. That's never, you know, never fits in anywhere. I'm like, okay.

• 20:33Joe Rogan?

  This is who I am. I'll just get some weird odd jobs to feed myself with. Like this is literally how I was thinking about my future.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  And look at you now.

• 20:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I got lucky. Things that are unconventional. But there's so many children out there that are told like, hey, uh, music isn't a career. You know, hey, you know, whatever, acting, writing books, whatever it is, comedy. Somebody is there telling you because they didn't do it, that you can't do it.

• 21:04Joe Rogan?

  It's a bummer. Like I was an artist when I was young. Um, I wanted to be a comic book illustrator when I was really young. And I had one shitty high school art teacher who was just such a twat. He was so bad. And I just, I quit art my senior year. I was like, I don't wanna go to this guy's fucking class, like, cause it wasn't a big high school and he was the only art teacher. So I quit.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Why, what did he do?

• 21:28Joe Rogan?

  He was just negative.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 21:31Joe Rogan?

  He was like, you can't, because I just wanted to draw what I wanted to draw.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:35Joe Rogan?

  You know, and I was into comic book stuff like Conan the Barbarian and superheroes and stuff like that. And he was like, you're not gonna make a living doing that. You're most likely gonna have to do like advertisements for like diapers, like diaper ads. And I was like, fucking diaper ad? Like, that's his explanation that he used, diaper ads. And I would look at him and he just looked like, he looked depressed. He was like this skinny guy with a pot belly and he just...

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Well, he's probably an artist that didn't make it as an artist and he had to become an art teacher instead.

• 22:03Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  And so he's like bitter and...

• 22:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, we realized that too when we looked at his actual art. We're like, huh. This ain't very good. Not so inspired. There's not a lot of fire in that belly. You know, he's just a boring dude who's just like depressed and sad and he probably drank a lot. We see a skinny person with a big belly, usually that's like booze.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:26Joe Rogan?

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• 23:05Speaker 02

  I mean, there's, there's a lot of people like that, even in like the music industry. I feel like a lot of the experts in the game are just like people who were artists and didn't make it and other bitter. And then they try to tell you how everything should go or how you should do everything and...

• 23:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  That got me for a while.

• 23:25Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  When I was really young and.

• 23:27Joe Rogan?

  I feel like those people are like weights that you have to carry. You know, to build up resistance. You build up strength from dealing with tho- those bullshit people. Cause their stupid ideas, they get, they actually get in your head and you have to wrestle with them.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  For sure, especially when you're super young. Like I was, when I first moved to LA, I was seventeen.

• 23:45Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, by yourself?

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:47Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:49Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  And I was like very green, small-town Midwest girl.

• 23:53Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Just dropped in LA and like.

• 23:56Joe Rogan?

  And really pretty. That's a terrible combination.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Oh, it was weird.

• 24:00Joe Rogan?

  Really pretty, seventeen.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  It was weird as fuck.

• 24:03Joe Rogan?

  Midwest, oh god.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:06Joe Rogan?

  Look at you now, shaved head, tattoo on it.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 24:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you came out on the other end good though. But isn't it true though, that like, like those kind of experiences, like ex- experiencing like oddity and uncertainty and just like the, the weirdness of like moving to a place like LA when you're seventeen? Like, when you get through it on the other end, you're a different person, you're a stronger person.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  For sure. I mean, every experience makes you stronger, right? So. Yeah, I just threw myself into this

• 24:42Speaker 02

  crazy mix in LA and it was culture shock, like.

• 24:47Joe Rogan?

  So what year was this, when you moved to LA?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Um. So I was seventeen, so. And I was in the graduate, I should have been in the graduating class of two thousand four. So.

• 25:00Joe Rogan?

  So somewhere around that time. Two thousand three, two thousand four.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I lived with um, the guitar player from Culture Club.

• 25:09Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Roy Hay.

• 25:11Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had a house in Venice and I crashed on it, on his couch and. It was wild.

• 25:19Joe Rogan?

  Culture, Boy George.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:22Joe Rogan?

  Did you hang out with Boy George?

• 25:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:24Joe Rogan?

  Never?

• 25:24Speaker 02

  No, he wasn't there.

• 25:25Joe Rogan?

  You ever meet him?

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Guitar player, on the phone.

• 25:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was wild. There was a murder next door the first month they moved in. Yeah, there's like a bloody mattress in the little alleyway between the houses and they taped, they caution taped off all the houses and they had to question us about like, did we hear screaming? And so I was just like sitting there on the steps. Um, not allowed to leave while they were taking the body out and then the coroner, after he put the body in the truck, he came and sat next to me on the steps and started like hitting on me. He was like, he was like, "You're a very beautiful girl." I'm like, "You were just touching a dead body. This is so weird. Where am I?"

• 26:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God. That's crazy.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, welcome to LA.

• 26:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he got over that dead body real quick.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:24Joe Rogan?

  Hey, where are you from?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:26Joe Rogan?

  Fucking blood in his fingernails.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Gross.

• 26:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow, that's a movie.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, LA in 2003 was still okay.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:42Joe Rogan?

  It was like, not bad, you know? There was still traffic and everything, but it hadn't gone completely sideways like it is now. It's so weird when I go back, I'm like, this is unrecognizable. It doesn't seem like the same place. Every sign has a for, every building has a for lease sign on it. It's like, this is nuts. Like, it's hard to believe that this is, that you're, like, when you see things like Detroit, did you ever see that movie Roger and Me?

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Mm-mm.

• 27:09Joe Rogan?

  It's a great movie. It's, uh, Michael Moore and it's all about the collapse of the Detroit, um, automotive industry and how they moved all the plants to Mexico. And, um, when they did that, the entire economy of Detroit and Flint, Michigan and all these areas just collapsed, like, tens of thou- hundreds of thousands of people out of work, instantaneously, with no prospects. The industry was gone. And it's a horrific.

• 27:41Joe Rogan?

  This depiction of what can happen when greedy people decide that they'll they'll completely sabotage an entire city so they can make, you know, X amount more dollars. And move all the factories to places where you can pay people a dollar a day, or whatever the fuck they pay them. And, um, you know, I had seen that, but I was like, oh, that was, you know, nineteen eighties or nineteen sixties, whenever, when the, when, when the, the place was booming, like Detroit was at one point in time, I think, the third richest city in the world. Whoa. Yeah. See if that's true. I'm pretty sure that's true.

• 28:21Joe Rogan?

  But, um, it was all just because the automobile manufacturing. I mean, everything was made there. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, all of our big cars, and it just, gone. Like a ghost town. Like a ghost town. And, you know, and when I visited Detroit to work, I'd be like, wow, this is crazy. You see trees growing through the middle of houses. The houses are collapsed. And like, literally, nobody took care of the house. It was abandoned. So, trees grow through the roofs and they're reclaiming these homes. You see, you go by these gigantic, like, buildings, like industrial buildings. All the windows are broken. Yeah.

• 29:02Joe Rogan?

  Everything. No reliable historical source shows Detroit as the third richest city in the world. The common claim is actually that Detroit was the richest city in the world, or at least the US, was one of the highest living standards around nineteen fifties, not third. Oh, so it's the richest? Whoa. It's not, that's the common claim? Yeah. Uh, what it actually was. Very high, medium household income, around twenty percent above US average, and it's all because of the automotive industry. Mm-hmm. One of the highest homeownership rates in the country. Because of this, many commentators and locals' histories, uh, described Detroit as the wealthiest city in the US, and by some accounts, having the highest standard of living in the world in that era.

• 29:43Joe Rogan?

  Articles and tours about Detroit repeatedly referred to it as the wealthiest city in the world in the nineteen fifty-fifties, not as the third wealthiest. So, is that true then, that it was the wealthiest city in the world?

• 29:58Joe Rogan?

  Tours about Detroit's history. Uh, the third richest city in the world line seems to come from its memes, social posts. Okay, these posts are often mixed or exaggeration of real facts. Detroit truly was exceptionally rich by US standards, but rankings like third in the world are not backed by clear, clearly documented global per capita income comparisons from that period.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Well, so it was rich.

• 30:24Joe Rogan?

  It was very wealthy, very wealthy, either way. And when you think about the rest of the world, you know, like, you know, people love to use that term, the 1%, like the top 1%. Do you know what that is, like for the world?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  No, no, what is it?

• 30:38Joe Rogan?

  Thirty-four thousand dollars.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  No friggin way.

• 30:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Thirty-four thousand dollars is the top 1% of earth.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 30:47Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. That's crazy.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  What is it for the US?

• 30:53Joe Rogan?

  1%, if I had a guess,

• 30:57Joe Rogan?

  let's guess. Um, I bet it's like five hundred thousand dollars a year.

• 31:05Joe Rogan?

  Do you think? What do you think it is?

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Two fifty.

• 31:08Joe Rogan?

  Two fifty? What do you think it is, Jamie?

• 31:11Speaker 02

  That's my guess, I don't know though.

• 31:13Joe Rogan?

  Hundred fifty?

• 31:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  Top 1%?

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 31:18Joe Rogan?

  Alright, let's,

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Oh, that's your guess.

• 31:19Joe Rogan?

  Throw that in perplexity.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  I was guessing, I didn't wanna look.

• 31:22Joe Rogan?

  Throw that sucker in perplexity. What did I say, half a million? Top 1% of the US, seven hundred thousand.

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Dang.

• 31:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  You're the closest.

• 31:30Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Seven hundred, eight hundred thousand or more, depending on the data source and year. That's pretty crazy. So, for the United States, seven hundred, thirty to seven hundred and ninety thousand dollars per year, most analysis. Um, and then for the rest of the world, thirty-four thousand.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 31:51Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  That's wild.

• 31:53Joe Rogan?

  That's wild, yeah. That's capitalism.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 31:58Joe Rogan?

  But I bet there's probably some truth to in order for the United States to have such a high income, these other countries have to get fucked over. Globally, you only need an annual income on the order of sixty thousand to seventy thousand to be the top one percent. Oh, it used to be thirty-four percent, thirty-four thousand.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  I'm sure it fluctuates.

• 32:20Joe Rogan?

  One widely cited analysis found in two thousand twelve, annual income of fifty thousand was enough to be in the global one percent. So where's that thirty-four thousand come from?

• 32:30Speaker 03

  It was a meme that was going around too.

• 32:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, fucking memes.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  It might have been kinda true, but again, yeah, memes.

• 32:35Joe Rogan?

  I saw it repeated by someone very intelligent.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  I've looked it up before, but I think it was a meme.

• 32:40Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  I'll look it up again to see what it says.

• 32:42Joe Rogan?

  Either way.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  I get, I get, those memes get me all the time.

• 32:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the time.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  I'm like, babe, look at this. And then you go to the comments and it's like all, all fake.

• 32:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of that. But, you know, that's the, the dirty thing about what, what they did was it's right. Like, they decided that they'll take advantage of these people that are ultra poor, that are work, willing to work with. And it's not just that they get paid a dollar a day or whatever they get paid. It's, there's no healthcare. There's no benefits. There's no retirement, there's no dental, there's no nothing. You just get that money and then figure it out on your own and then, you know, you buy a Ford car and you think it's made in America. Commonly repeated claim, the annual income about thirty-four thousand dollars US puts you in the top one percent of the world, but this comes from rough, older viral estimates.

• 33:35Joe Rogan?

  It's not based on current rigorous global data. More careful tools and data sets now suggest that thirty-four thousand dollars places you well above the global median, but likely closer to roughly the top five to ten percent worldwide, rather than the top one percent. Okay, so it appears in social posts.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  But sixty is still.

• 33:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Sixty is still like.

• 34:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, you're barely getting by.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:02Joe Rogan?

  If you make fifty thousand dollars in America, like, you're fucking struggling.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:05Joe Rogan?

  Unless you're super young, you don't have any responsibilities.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  And will they pay teachers?

• 34:08Joe Rogan?

  That's a good question. Like, what's the average?

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:12Joe Rogan?

  Public school teacher salary in America? Let's guess. You think it's like sixty grand?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  I think it's about that.

• 34:19Joe Rogan?

  I bet it's about that. Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Bad to guess. Might be less, actually.

• 34:24Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 34:29Joe Rogan?

  Dun dun dun. Seventy-four thousand.

• 34:34Joe Rogan?

  Public school teachers now average seventy-four thousand to seventy-five thousand dollars per year. So that's like, you know, you're okay.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Depends on where you live, but yeah.

• 34:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you live in New York, you're fucked.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:46Joe Rogan?

  If you live in New York, you live in a box.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  That's pretty good for Wisconsin.

• 34:52Joe Rogan?

  Okay, um, state averages, lowest paying states to above ninety thousand dollars and the highest paying ones like California and New York. So California and New York, ninety thousand dollars.

• 35:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, starting teacher pays significantly lower than the overall average.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 35:09Joe Rogan?

  National estimate, the average starting teacher salary about forty-eight thousand dollars. Wow, meaning it takes years of experience and often advanced degrees to reach or exceed that seventy-four thousand dollar average. So if you get like really intelligent people, even if they love children, they're like, I can't do this. I can't live like this.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:29Joe Rogan?

  You start off at forty-eight thousand dollars a year, that's fucking bonkers. That's not even a thousand dollars a week, and then you have taxes, and then you have an apartment, and then you have food, and then you have a car.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Kids.

• 35:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh. Huh.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  How do people do it?

• 35:45Joe Rogan?

  Which is weird that we put our priorities um, in strange places. Like the amount of money that goes through, you know, various corporations and NGOs and the amount of loans that all this different fucking shit that where our tax dollars go. And you look at that and you're like, that seems so short sighted.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Very.

• 36:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No politician runs on that. No politician's like, we need to really find the best teachers and pay them the most amount of money that we can afford to make sure that we get the best and the brightest. Everybody's like, fuck you.

• 36:27Joe Rogan?

  It's weird.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 36:29Joe Rogan?

  People are strange.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I wish you could like, check boxes of where you want your tax dollars to go.

• 36:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  I want it to go to education or whatever.

• 36:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, imagine if that was an option, if when you voted, you could actually vote on where your taxes went.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Like, not even voted. It should be actually individually. He might have to pee.

• 36:55Joe Rogan?

  He's acting, you know, I'm, yeah, let, let him out. Cause generally, he would be chilling by now. And when he huffs like that, he's usually trying to let you know something. Yeah, like, that's what he does when he has to eat. He huffs. He comes around, he's like, I get it, I go, chill out, bro.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  My dog does that when she senses something outside. Like a coyote or something. She starts huffing.

• 37:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, you guys were saying you have a, one of them giant Caucasian shepherds? Is that what it is?

• 37:26Speaker 02

  It's a Central Asian shepherd. We have an alibi. I guess there's a lot of different, like, breeds under the Central Asian shepherd.

• 37:35Joe Rogan?

  They're all herding dogs, right? They're like protect-

• 37:37Speaker 02

  It's a protection livestock.

• 37:39Joe Rogan?

  Wolves.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:40Joe Rogan?

  Pull up the image of an alibi dog.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Just Google wolf crusher.

• 37:47Joe Rogan?

  Is that what they call them?

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:50Joe Rogan?

  How much does it weigh?

• 37:51Speaker 02

  She's actually on the smaller side. She's like a hundred and five pounds or something.

• 37:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that is smaller.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  But she, her head is so massive.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  They get, they get really big. That one can't be real. But they are massive, like.

• 38:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so that's what she looks like?

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  She's all white.

• 38:16Joe Rogan?

  But those dogs are great for just like keeping track of the property. Look at that image. This is wolf crusher in the bottom, the bottom right there, right? Go to the left, right? Left of the wolf grinder thing. Yeah, that, that one right there.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  So that I think is like a Turkish Kangol.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Which is, I think, the next dog we're gonna get. Cause we need another one.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Our alibi, Nala, she... I'm just like such an animal lover, so she really should be outside, living on the ranch. But she sleeps in bed.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  So I need an outside dog that's actually watching the livestock. Because this past couple of weeks, we lost 12 chickens and four sheep.

• 39:04Joe Rogan?

  To what?

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Coyotes.

• 39:06Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Where do you live?

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Napa, Napa Valley.

• 39:10Joe Rogan?

  Wow, you have that many coyotes out there?

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Oh, they are invading our property right now. It's been... The last few weeks have been really rough.

• 39:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, once they know that there's food there.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:21Joe Rogan?

  It's very...

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Once they taste the blood, they come back every night.

• 39:24Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different, and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan.

• 40:08Joe Rogan?

  Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. This episode is brought to you by ShipStation. Black Friday is madness if you're shopping. But if you're the person trying to get all those orders out the door, that's a whole different kind of crazy. That's where ShipStation comes in. It's an end-to-end order fulfillment platform that brings all your orders into one place. So when volume spikes, your team isn't scrambling to keep up. More than 1 million businesses have used ShipStation to get through peak season,

• 40:51Joe Rogan?

  scaling fulfillment up to 40 times, while cutting costs up to 30%. It's the kind of tool that helps businesses stay in control when things get nuts, and every order matters. Peak season doesn't wait, and neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with the code JRE. That's shipstation.com code JRE. Taxes and fees apply. Yeah, I lost all my chickens in California. Yeah. We, we lost a couple of them every now and then. I had a, a dog, um, his name is Johnny Cash and he was a Mastiff and he was a sweetheart

• 41:36Joe Rogan?

  of a dog, but he was huge. He was like 140 pounds, solid muscle. And, um, these coyotes made friends with him. And so they would come by the fence and hang out with them. And then eventually he got like accustomed to them. And then one day the pool guy accidentally left the gate open. And so he went into the area where the chicken coop is. And the chicken coop is like completely protected, but we had, one of our chickens was brooding. Do you know what? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Of course you do. So, um, when you take chickens, when they're brooding, you have to take them away from the other chickens and you put them in a smaller coop and they have to perch. So if they perch, then they don't think that they're sitting on an egg and then they get over it after a while. Yeah.

• 42:21Joe Rogan?

  And the coyote tricked Johnny into smashing that little chicken coop so that he can get the chicken. What do you mean? I don't know how this motherfucker did it, but it couldn't break down the chicken coop because it was only like 30 pounds. And so it was over there with Johnny and all of a sudden, me and my wife and our kids were playing some sort of a like Monopoly or something in the living room. And someone yells coyote and one of my kids yelled coyote and we see the coyote running across the backyard with the chicken in its mouth. And then leaps onto the top of the fence. I thought we had like this fence that was probably like

• 43:04Joe Rogan?

  six feet tall or something like that, like wrought iron fence. I'm like, that'll keep the coyotes out. No, it leapt like a ballerina.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 43:12Joe Rogan?

  Like a gymnast, toes to the top of the fence and then off with the chicken in its mouth and part of me was like so impressed that it did that I wasn't even mad, but apart, I was like, what the fuck? I was like, how did he get that? So we go outside and there's Johnny standing there and in front of this destroyed chicken coop, which clearly he did.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz the coyote couldn't have done that.

• 43:33Joe Rogan?

  And so then he realized that um chickens are to be killed.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Oh no.

• 43:39Joe Rogan?

  Someone uh left the gate open again and he decided to just go right through the big chicken coop and he killed nine of them. Before one of my daughters was screaming Johnny's in the chicken coop.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he made a mess out of it.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  That's awful.

• 43:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, he didn't know.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I know, but.

• 43:58Joe Rogan?

  He isn't.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  My chickens are like my pets. I like snuggle with them and stuff.

• 44:03Joe Rogan?

  We lost one to a bobcat last week.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had some bobcats take some of ours too, yeah.

• 44:08Joe Rogan?

  And we lost one to a fox. We lost one to a fox like a couple of weeks ago.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Do you free range your chickens? You let them out of the coop every day?

• 44:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they get out of the coop and then we bring them in at night, but the, you know, fucking animals, they figure it out.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, so like last week, cuz um we let the chickens out every morning. It was six thirty in the morning and this coyote came and killed twelve, like back to back. Just ripped them up. Well, on the cameras, that's, we only saw one.

• 44:38Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:40Joe Rogan?

  So it was like surplus killing?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, thrill killing.

• 44:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, they don't, they kill and then they leave them there and then they go back and get them later. You know, they do that with cats, you know?

• 44:50Speaker 02

  I mean, mountain lions do that for sure.

• 44:52Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  But um.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was weird. He just killed them all and then took like a few of them with him, left some of them.

• 45:03Joe Rogan?

  Mmm, motherfuckers.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  It was awful. I was broken because it took my favorite chicken and her name was Big Cheeks. She was sweetest. She would like come like a dog. You could like call her name and she would come to you and...

• 45:18Joe Rogan?

  Do you eat chicken?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not my chickens.

• 45:21Joe Rogan?

  I don't eat my chickens either, but it's always weird because my wife treats the chickens like they're little babies. Like, "Hey, girls, hey, girls." She takes care of them and all that stuff and then we'll be eating chicken.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:35Joe Rogan?

  It's odd.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:37Joe Rogan?

  It's odd.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  I mean, we have cows too and I eat beef.

• 45:40Joe Rogan?

  Do you eat your cows?

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Well, they're not technically our cows, so we have like an arrangement with a cattle guy and he just uses our property to graze them.

• 45:49Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Because we need the cows, because we have a biodynamic vineyard. And so we use the cows in the vineyard like for a few months out of the year just because it creates like a great ecosystem and also like their footprints make little puddles and the water gathers because we're also dry farmed. And so...

• 46:10Joe Rogan?

  What's that mean?

• 46:11Speaker 02

  We don't water our grapes.

• 46:14Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so...

• 46:17Joe Rogan?

  Why is that?

• 46:19Speaker 02

  I'm not the wine expert, but I think it's because you get like a better flavor profile if you like... It's more concentrated if you don't like overload them with water. And also it makes the vines struggle in a good way, so it makes them reach deeper, like the roots reach deeper into the ground. And so you get more like flavor, I guess.

• 46:44Joe Rogan?

  And so this is your own wine?

• 46:47Speaker 02

  So we don't make the wine. We sell the grapes to, I think we have five different winemakers now. They're all doing single estate wines from our property.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  So they're not blending it with anything. So you can drink the wine from our property, but it's not our label. Because I don't want to go out there and sell wine and make people taste my wine. And I don't want to go down that hole.

• 47:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Marketing. It's like, I have a whole other job. I don't need that.

• 47:15Joe Rogan?

  That seems like a lot.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  We just handle the farming.

• 47:17Joe Rogan?

  That's cool, though. Well, if somebody wanted to buy wine from your property, like, what are the wines?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Well, our property is called Glass Rock. And so, um, Pilcrow Glass Rock, um, Tansy Glass Rock.

• 47:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so they all say Glass Rock is on the farm?

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oops, sorry. They have like, uh, their brand name or whatever. And then underneath it'll say like, the vineyard site. So if you get it from a Glass Rock.

• 47:42Joe Rogan?

  I'm gonna buy some wine from your farm.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Oh, I'll send you some. Do you like wine?

• 47:47Joe Rogan?

  I do.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 47:48Joe Rogan?

  I do. I like wine.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm gonna just mail you a package of all of the wines from our property.

• 47:53Joe Rogan?

  Okay, cool.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  It's all Cabernet, but we're taking like, an Old World approach to it. Because Napa cabs are like, super powerful, tons of alcohol. And that's not, not really my style. I like, like, French and Italian wines, usually. And so, all the winemakers we're working with are, are taking that approach. And so, we're picking a little bit earlier, lower sugars, lower alcohol. It's really delicious, delicate, beautiful wine.

• 48:20Joe Rogan?

  How did you get involved in this?

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Um, well, I got really into wine, like, in my twenties. And then, um, I took a trip to Napa for a birthday. And it's so beautiful there. Have you been to Napa?

• 48:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. It's gorgeous.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  So I just like, fell in love with the area. And then, um, I met the love of my life at the grocery store there. As I was buying a watermelon, and he asked if he could carry my melon for me. And that was his pickup line.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  I actually turned-

• 48:57Joe Rogan?

  That's much better than a coroner.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  I turned him down, though. I said, "No." Yeah. Um, but we, um, Carlo Mondavi is his best friend. Uh, do you know Mondavi?

• 49:08Joe Rogan?

  Mondavi wines?

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  So, he's grandson of Robert Mondavi. Um, and so they're like best friends and Carlo, I was living in Park City, Utah at the time. And Carlo had a house in my neighborhood. So, that was like our mutual connection friend.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  And so, I would just come to Napa to visit Carlo and he would teach me about all the wine stuff and,

• 49:38Speaker 02

  and that's how I met Elliot when we were at the grocery store. And, uh, then a year later, we got together officially. We just kinda like kept in touch. I was married at the time, he was in a relationship. So, it was very dramatic. But, (laugh) long story short, it was very dramatic. Turned into a crazy divorce, five-year lawsuit, all this crazy shit.

• 50:02Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Um, but anyway-

• 50:04Joe Rogan?

  Those are fun.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was fantastic. So then I, um, moved to Napa and moved in with Elliot, um, a year after we met. And so then, we, but we lived in St. Helena, which is like a town up the valley from, from Napa proper. And, um, it was like a 400-acre ranch out in the middle of nowhere. Um, and we had like a 400-square-foot house, like a little tiny cabin, basically, that we lived in. And after a while, like getting cats and stuff, I was like, "This is really small." And I have like, I have to make music, I have to record, and like having a studio in a 400-square-foot house, it was just, you know. So then we ended up, um, buying this house down in, in Napa. And we bought it for the house, but there was a vineyard there.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  And so we were like, "We gotta figure out what to do with the vineyard." And it was conventionally farmed up to that point.

• 50:56Joe Rogan?

  Conventionally, meaning irrigated?

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Like irrigated, they used pesticides, like, you know. Like, pretty much, most of the vineyards.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  You know.

• 51:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  And but we're very all about organic and everything.

• 51:12Joe Rogan?

  Great too, because one of the things that we were reading the other day was about glyphosate in California wines. And that they tested a bunch of California wines and all of them.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:23Joe Rogan?

  Had glyphosate in it.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we don't use any of that.

• 51:25Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're very anti. So we transformed the vineyard into this biodynamic, organically farmed.

• 51:34Joe Rogan?

  Did you know how to do that before that? Or did you read books? How'd you find out how to do it?

• 51:37Speaker 02

  No, we hired a farmer for a while from France that that was his like forte, basically. So we transformed the vineyard and then now Elliot's out there doing a lot of the farming. Obviously, we have help. It's because we have like something like nine acres planted of vineyard. And so we have help, but he's out there running the tractors and stuff.

• 52:05Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's he's always done. He's always done like a lot of like tractor work.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  But not ever in a vineyard. So it's it's all new to us, but it's fun.

• 52:17Joe Rogan?

  That that life of like being on a piece of land and growing something there and like living with animals. That is like the romantic life.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 52:28Joe Rogan?

  Thinks about.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 52:30Joe Rogan?

  Is it that cool?

• 52:31Speaker 02

  It's yeah, it's awesome. You gotta come. I think you'll love it.

• 52:34Joe Rogan?

  It sounds amazing. I want to do that. I've thought about doing that many times, like buying a ranch, living on a ranch. It's just like. I get terrified of like adding one more thing to my life that will probably push out some things or eat up time. I just don't know where I'm getting that time from. That's the only hesitation that I have.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  You just hire help.

• 52:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but then you have to talk to them and you have to deal with them.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to manage it all.

• 53:00Joe Rogan?

  You have to deal with like interpersonal drama between the help and like Mike's a piece of shit. Let me tell you like, oh, fuck. You know what I mean?

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:07Joe Rogan?

  Like.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  It's worth it, though. Honestly, it really is.

• 53:10Joe Rogan?

  I bet it is.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  So peaceful, like especially being in the industry I'm in, going out and like touring and. Just being in big cities and then coming home to this like peaceful serene.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's the perfect balance.

• 53:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, that is probably the key to staying sane as a performer. Like having a balance.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 53:35Joe Rogan?

  Because so many of them just fucking just stay on the road and you you you kind of like lose your roots, you lose your grounding. You're you're always.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Well, and for me, it like, living in L A really ruined my creativity.

• 53:51Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Um, I think a lot of it was like, I'm I have a tendency to like, give everybody too much power. So like all these so-called experts, like listening to their opinions about what I was doing, um, just got in my head. And so, um, removing myself, being able to remove myself from those characters and personalities, telling me what they thought I should be doing, like writing about, singing about, dressing, whatever. I just, I need to like have open spaces to really hear my own inner voice and like my gut, you know?

• 54:32Speaker 02

  So I left L A when I was twenty-three. And I moved up to Oregon for a while, lived in a cabin.

• 54:41Joe Rogan?

  By yourself?

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:43Joe Rogan?

  Really? How'd you find it?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Well, I had, I'd been on tour and I was playing keyboards and singing backups for somebody else. So I can back up a little bit. So I I got my first record deal when I was, um, eighteen or something. And put out an album that was with Warner Brothers, Linkin Park signed me.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  And I was going by the name Hollybrook at the time, that's my first and middle name. And so I I put out an album through that and it completely like flopped. And I went broke and, you know, L A is so expensive. And I had spent all my college savings to move out to L A and make demos and everything, so I had nothing left. And, um, so then I had taken, for the first time in my life, I had to get some jobs. Like, not just performing, so I worked in Barnes and Noble.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I taught gymnastics and I edited porn.

• 55:49Joe Rogan?

  You edited porn?

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:51Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  That was a great experience.

• 55:56Joe Rogan?

  That's gotta be weird.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  It was weird.

• 55:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, how did you take that job? First of all, how did you even find out about that job?

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Well, it was a Craigslist ad and it was just like, we need video editors. And I was like, oh, I can, I can figure that out because I edit in Pro Tools and stuff, music, so it can't be that hard. And they said they would train. So I showed up to the interview in a suit and they were like, so you know this is adult content? Because it didn't say that in the ad.

• 56:29Joe Rogan?

  That's how they brought it up? You know this is adult content?

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:32Joe Rogan?

  How the fuck would you know?

• 56:33Speaker 02

  And they're like, are you cool with that? And I was like, I guess so, because I need the job. And so I just took it and it was a nine to five, literally just looking at like the most disgusting shit you can imagine. Like, Two Girls, One Cup has got nothing on my song.

• 56:52Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:53Joe Rogan?

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• 57:36Joe Rogan?

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• 58:20Joe Rogan?

  NOCO, the end of jumper cables. Use code ROGEN10 for 10% off select jump starters at NO.co. So it was like hardcore.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Hardcore porn and that was like,

• 58:36Speaker 02

  it wasn't editing feature films, it was taking like a feature film and then cutting out all the highlights. So that I could make like basically reels or like, you know, it wasn't Instagram, but basically like these little clips that people would search and and find like a comm shot or like a cream pie or whatever search term they would use to find this specific little clip. And so I would put together these little clips and then tag it with all the search terms somebody would use to find it. That was the the job. And so it was all just like, watch the whole film and pick out all the most disgusting moments you can find. And turn that into a clip.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  And then I started getting this thing called the Tetris effect. Have you heard of that?

• 59:22Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  So like if you play Tetris for too long, you start seeing like the shapes falling, you hallucinate basically. So you'll just like be making dinner or whatever and you're just like hallucinating like the Tetris shapes. But I was hallucinating like gaping buttholes and.

• 59:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh my God.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  And so.

• 59:46Joe Rogan?

  How long did you do that job?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  I only lasted two weeks, but it was the best paying job out of all of them that I had, because I got paid by how many clips I got done in a certain amount of time. And so I was making like 30 bucks an hour, which is great for a high school dropout, you know? And so it was good money, but I, um, with the Tetris effect thing happening to me.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  There was like a light socket over my bed that I had taken the light bulb out of because it was too bright. And every night when I fell asleep, I would like stare at that and see a gaping butthole.

• 1:00:24Joe Rogan?

  (laughter)

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  I was just like, this is not healthy. Like, this can't be good for me to continue doing, you know?

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  And then I also simultaneously got offered to be a keyboardist for this other singer, Duncan Sheik. He's like a nineties, he had a song called Barely Breathing in the nineties. And I was a fan. And so I was like, well, that sounds like a better job, you know?

• 1:00:52Joe Rogan?

  Definitely.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Enough music, at least. So I went on tour with him for a while. I don't know if it was like a year or two. But the whole time, I was just like, I wish I was making my own music and singing my own music, you know? It started really eating at me, being like the backup musician. And so I was like journaling a lot on tour and I wrote, "I just want a cabin in the woods where I can set up my studio and be away from all these people." And basically, I manifested the cabin because like six months after I wrote that in my journal, my mom called me and she was like, "My friend has this property in Oregon and she has a cabin and she's willing to let you live there for free.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  You just have to work in her art gallery selling art like twice a week." And I was like, "That sounds perfect."

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  So, that's what I did.

• 1:01:46Joe Rogan?

  That's how you wound up in Oregon?

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  So that's how I wound up in Oregon.

• 1:01:48Joe Rogan?

  What part of Oregon?

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  It's the southern coast. It was in the middle of nowhere, but it's basically near Banden. Do you know where Banden Dunes Golf Course is?

• 1:01:56Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Have you heard of that?

• 1:01:58Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  It's a really famous golf course, but it was kind of near there. And I lived there for like six months. Set up my studio, kind of like had to rediscover my love for music and fall back in love with it because I had like writer's block and was really depressed.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  I had also, just before that, broke up with my boyfriend at the time. And my heart was broken and it was just like, I was, I was a mess.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  But my cabin was this really small, one-room cabin with one light bulb. And there was no bathroom in it. There was a bathroom outside. And so I had to like walk in the middle of the night if I had to pee, I had to walk to the bathroom and I was like terrified.

• 1:02:49Joe Rogan?

  Was it an outhouse?

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  No, it had a flushing toilet and a shower.

• 1:02:53Joe Rogan?

  But it was like a standalone?

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  But it was separate from the cabin and like down a path.

• 1:02:58Joe Rogan?

  By itself?

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  Just a bathroom?

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know. Well, because the cabin was like an old fire lookout that they turned into a cabin. So it didn't have like plumbing or something. So they like add, I don't know. But it was really beautiful. And it was also at the top of a sand dune, so I couldn't drive up to it. So I had to park down the hill and hike to it.

• 1:03:23Joe Rogan?

  How far was the hike?

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Like a quarter mile.

• 1:03:26Joe Rogan?

  Every day?

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And so, and I didn't have like internet or anything up there.

• 1:03:33Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  But it was great. But I was terrified of mountain lions the whole time. And so I would like, you know, walking up that hill at night if I came home from whatever.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  I had my flashlight and was like looking all directions like. And I actually made a mask to wear on the back of my head. Cause apparently like eye contact with a mountain lion, like they won't attack.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  And so, because they attack you from behind. So I like wore a mask on the back of my head.

• 1:04:04Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Who told you how to do that?

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  I don't know, Google?

• 1:04:11Joe Rogan?

  There's um.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's real, but I did it.

• 1:04:14Joe Rogan?

  It's real for tigers. There's um, a group of people that work for the government in the Sundarbans. So the Sundarbans is this area in India that's notorious for tigers eating people. And apparently, over the, let's just Google this number, because I'll fuck this up too. I think over the last two hundred years, something insane, like three hundred thousand people have been killed by tigers.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:04:43Joe Rogan?

  In this area, yeah.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:04:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, there's a lot of villages there, and then there's also typhoons. And apparently, when these storms happen, sometimes people die, and they wind up in the river. And you know, they get washed away, and then tigers apparently developed a taste for human. And um, then there's also this thought about um, the water. The water is not fresh. It's brackish, so the water has a high salt content in it, but they still drink it, because it's the only salt water, so they're probably constantly irritated.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  Um, the Sundarbans usually prone to attacking, sometimes eating humans, causing dozens of deaths every year. But not every tiger there is a man eater. Aw, sweet. Historical reports suggest Sundaban tigers regularly killed fifty to sixty people per year, with some estimates over a hundred. Especially, including unreported cases. Most recent expert estimates put the average about twenty-two to twenty-three human deaths per year in the Sundarbans far lower than the popular perception. Well, there's like clusters of attack. Oh yeah, here it is. Local news has reported clusters of attacks. Multiple fishermen and crab catchers killed within a month, showing that risk can spike in certain areas or seasons.

• 1:06:03Joe Rogan?

  Um, I had a bit in my two thousand nine comedy special about this attack that happened in the Sundarbans where there was four guys in a boat. And this tiger swam out to the boat, killed a guy, dragged him to shore, dropped his body off, jumped back in the water, swam to the boat, killed another guy, jumped back in the water. Did it with three guys before he got tired, and the last guy is just fucking shitting his pants on the boat by himself. One guy lived, so these are the people that would walk around with these masks on the back of their heads.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:06:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  So, I did the right thing.

• 1:06:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you did the right thing, well, at least for tigers. But there's, um, isn't that crazy? Like, these people all living around there. These are honey collectors in the sunder bands to prevent tiger attacks. Like, you gotta know, there's a lot of tiger attacks when you're wearing a fucking mask around your head when you're going to work.

• 1:06:59Joe Rogan?

  Woo.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's creepy.

• 1:07:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fucking scary.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:05Joe Rogan?

  It's a crazy way to got to die, too.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:08Joe Rogan?

  You know, especially a tiger. It's probably pretty quick, though. I guess once they get a hold of you, it's just mush to get the back of your neck.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it probably happens fast.

• 1:07:17Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Joe Rogan?

  Mountain lion would probably take a little longer.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:07:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, probably twenty minutes, fifteen, depending on how much you scream.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  We've had to deal with those, too.

• 1:07:33Joe Rogan?

  Did you have a gun or anything when you were up there?

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:07:35Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:07:36Joe Rogan?

  Did you think about getting one?

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  No, I didn't, actually. I had an axe.

• 1:07:44Joe Rogan?

  It's better than nothing.

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  It was, I was just chopping wood, because I had a little wood stove.

• 1:07:48Joe Rogan?

  If you were really afraid of mountain lions, how come you didn't get a gun?

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  I don't know, I didn't even think about it, I don't know why.

• 1:07:55Joe Rogan?

  Wow. That'd be the first thing I thought of.

• 1:08:00Joe Rogan?

  There's not a fucking chance in hell I'm walking around there without a gun.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't think at that point I was into guns yet.

• 1:08:10Joe Rogan?

  Are you into them now?

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  We have a gun range at our house.

• 1:08:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Elliot's very into them.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  I have a carry permit.

• 1:08:21Joe Rogan?

  Good for you.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:23Joe Rogan?

  Good. Um, have you ever seen a big cat in the wild?

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, a mountain lion.

• 1:08:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what was the biggest one you saw? Like, a real big one?

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Um, I don't think the ones I saw were huge. They were like a hundred, maybe one fifty.

• 1:08:42Joe Rogan?

  The first one I ever saw was just in Colorado. It won, it actually wound up getting one of my dogs. And this was.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  It got your dog?

• 1:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:08:54Joe Rogan?

  I lived in um, a place called Gold Hill. It's like north of Boulder. So it's like uh, three thousand feet above Boulder. It was fucking beautiful, gorgeous. I would've stayed there. But um, um, it's very high altitude. It's like eighty-five hundred feet above sea level. And my wife got pregnant. And when you are, um, if you're pregnant at very high altitude and you're not accustomed to that, it's like you have the flu every day. It's horrible. And we wound up going back to LA. But uh, so that was the first one that I saw. And then I saw one in Santa Barbara. I saw one in uh, and actually in Montecito. We were driving. And I saw this thing running across the road. I was like, oh, is that a coyote? And then I saw the tail.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, the tail's a giveaway.

• 1:09:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's a fucking mountain lion. Like, that's wild. But that one wasn't even that big. That was like seventy pounds. And then uh, a couple of years ago, I was in Utah with my friend Colton and we were driving around this corner. And he goes, dude, look under that tree. Look at that cat. And we see the glowing eyes of this cat because it was like just starting to get dark out. And uh, I was probably thirty yards from this thing in the truck with the binoculars, just looking at its head. Its fucking head was massive, like a pumpkin. Like the muscles, the mandible muscles were like these things around its head.

• 1:10:19Joe Rogan?

  Just a crushing machine. And these huge forearms, that's what I remember about it the most. His forearms were massive. And it was just sitting there, under that tree, staring at us. And I was in the truck. Like, I wasn't, you know, we were armed. And we were in a truck and I was still shitting my pants. Like, that thing is so big.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  How much do you think it weighed?

• 1:10:41Joe Rogan?

  At least a hundred and eighty pounds, maybe two hundred. It was a big tomcat. Like that one that we have out front, like that, like that size.

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:10:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was like that one was one my friend Adam Green Tree killed. And he killed that in Colorado. And that one, they had a depredation permit because it was targeting this rancher's cows. And they, they had tracked it and that day, as they were tracking it, it had killed one of these cows and just, it was still alive. They, it just gutted it. It basically took it down and just started eating its organs while it was still alive.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what they do.

• 1:11:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was pretty rough.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Joe Rogan?

  They're monsters.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  We had that, we had an issue with mountain lions up at our other property in Napa. We had sheep and I was actually on tour with Eminem. And got a text from my neighbor that our sheep had had babies on Valentine's Day. And so I was like so excited to get home and take care of these lambs. And I guess one of the, the lambs was rejected by the mother. And so we had to bottle feed it. So, which is the best thing ever. I love that. You know, some people think it's like a unnecessary chore to take care of bottle babies, but I love it.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  So like three times a day feeding this thing and she became like a dog, like she would follow me everywhere. She slept on my front porch. Her name was Valentine. I got a tattoo of her actually right here. And, but, so like a few months later, we had had like,

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  maybe ten lambs at that point, little babies. They're so cute.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  And like one morning. Oh, well, so our, the property was like 400 acres. And so, and our house was so small. We had like other little buildings on the property. So I'd set my studio up in one of the other buildings. And so I would drive up there. It was like a half mile up the driveway. And I was driving one day up to the studio and I saw this mountain lion like crossing our field. And I like rushed to get my phone out to take a video of it. Of course, it didn't get a very good shot by the time I got the video. And I turned around and went back to the house. I was like, babe, there's a, there's a mountain lion on the property. And I showed him the video and it was like kind of blurry. You couldn't really tell.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  And we called our neighbor and I think the sheriff and showed them the video. And everybody was just like, well, nine times out of 10, when people see, say they see a mountain lion, it's just a bobcat or like whatever. And I was like, no, I know this is a mountain lion. Like, I know what I'm looking at. You know, I saw the long tail, the whole thing. And they, like, nobody believed me.

• 1:13:43Joe Rogan?

  Like it's Bigfoot or something?

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I'm like, no, I swear it's a, it's a mountain lion. And Elliot believed me. So we went up and took a little hike up the ravine where I'd, I'd seen it walk off to. And I swear that, like, the lion must have been tracking us back to the house. Because it, that night, we were, because we didn't see it. We went up the ravine and we didn't see the lion anywhere, but we went back home. And then that night, we were like watching TV and scrolling through Instagram or whatever.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  And he showed me this, you know how the Russians, they like become friends with all these crazy animals? Like bears and whatever? So there's like this video of this like Russian guy like in bed with his mountain lion, like cuddling with it.

• 1:14:37Joe Rogan?

  It's always Russians.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  I know, right? They're psycho.

• 1:14:43Joe Rogan?

  They are not regular white people.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  No. And so he was like, he showed me this video and he's like, oh, I could never kill one of these. Unless they fucked with my family.

• 1:14:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  That next morning, I take my coffee out onto the front porch like I always did, look down at the sheep pen, and I see this mom sheep laying with her baby that's not moving. And I was like, this is something's not right. And I go down there and sure enough, there's like the fang marks, you know, the deep fang marks in its throat. And it's like stomach eaten out. And the mom would not leave its side. And so I go back to the house and I'm like, babe, we lost it, a lamb to the mountain lion. Nobody believed that I saw. And so we called Fish and Wildlife. And they came out and confirmed that it was a mountain lion kill.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  And so they set up, they were, they put traps in our sheep pen.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  And, you know, to see if we could like trap it and relocate it. And so they stayed on property that night and I can't even remember all the details, but basically in the middle of the night, we heard this big bang and we thought, oh, the trap closed. And we opened the door and it wasn't that. It was like one of our sheep had busted through the fence trying to escape the lion and was standing in our driveway, like right in front of the house. And I was like, oh, fuck. So then Elliot goes down to the sheep pen and he sees the lion. And it's like, just like those glowing eyes, you know? And, and then it darts off into the woods.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  And it had killed another lamb. And didn't, the trap didn't go off. And so then the, the guys, the truckers, they came down and they were like, okay, let's like hunt this thing, like take the dogs. So they had like six dogs.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  And basically for the next like week, tried to get this lion and couldn't. Like the dogs were getting all mixed up. They were like wandering off one direction and then going another direction and they, they're like, and the trackers were like, this has never happened. Like they usually get it, like what, what the hell's going on? They were, the dogs were just getting all confused. And

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  We basically, oh, and then another night Elliot was out there thinking that he heard the guys whistling. But I guess it was the cats whistling, so mountain lions whistle. Do you know about that?

• 1:17:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  It's a crazy sound. You can probably look it up.

• 1:17:28Joe Rogan?

  Mountain lion whistle, I need to hear that.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, but he heard whistling and he thought it was the trackers like saying like, we're here. And he like was just standing out there and then 20 minutes go by and the guys aren't there. And so then they finally pull up and they're like, um, or he was like, were you guys whistling at me? And they were like, no, like, did it sound like this? And he was like, yes. And they said, that's the lions, they whistle to communicate with each other.

• 1:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Put the headphones on so you can hear this.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:18:11Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's in, that's Tahone Ranch.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I meant, yeah.

• 1:18:36Joe Rogan?

  That, I go to that place. That's in California. That's outside of Bakersfield. Elk hunted there before. That place, Tahone Ranch, they had one pond where they set up a camera trap. They set up a trail cameras. They found 18 different cats on one pond.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  That's crazy. That's not normal.

• 1:18:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they have a lot of cats.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, California doesn't do anything about them.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:19:02Joe Rogan?

  They're kind of nuts. Texas has the complete opposite approach.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Joe Rogan?

  You just shoot them.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you don't have to have a permit.

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  Well, we got permits. We got permits because they came back and killed every night. And then they took my Valentine. And I was like, so heartbroken.

• 1:19:21Joe Rogan?

  There's nothing you could do to like lock them up?

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Well, I tried to bring Valentine into the house and put her in a kennel in the kitchen, but try sleeping with a screaming lamb.

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  It was like not a thing. We put her back out and she was fine that night. But the trappers just kept saying, no, we gotta just leave everything as is and we'll get them. But then like after a week of hunting them and nothing, it was like, what are we doing? Like, we should move these sheep. Like, I was fighting for that, but they were just like, no, we gotta keep everything as is because if you move them and change what's going on, it'll like the cattle just like maybe not come back for a while, but then it'll come back, you know?

• 1:20:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  And so they were like, if we're gonna get this thing, we gotta leave everything as is. But anyway, so they finally got the cat. One night, I actually had to leave town and do a show. And Elliot called me and he actually, he actually was the one that shot it.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  But they got the cat and I felt like this huge sense of relief. And I came home and I thought everything was fine and we weren't gonna lose any more lambs. And then like a few days later, I woke up and took my coffee outside and there was a mom sheep dead now and she was dragged under the fence.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  And I was like, what the absolute fuck? So turns out there was two cats hunting together and that's why the dogs were getting confused and couldn't follow the trail. And I guess like in the spring, a lot of times the moms will like teach their children how to hunt. And so they weren't even like eating the lambs, they were just killing them.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  And so it was like basically them learning how to hunt, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. But we got another permit and we got the second lion. And then everything was peaceful, but we we went down from like twenty to three sheep.

• 1:21:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was awful.

• 1:21:38Joe Rogan?

  Killed seventeen sheep? Holy shit, that must be terrifying.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I mean, I'm like out there, I'm scared for myself even.

• 1:21:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Living out there and like going into my studio and stuff like. It was really scary and really heartbreaking. Awful.

• 1:21:55Joe Rogan?

  I can imagine. Seventeen is crazy.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was really bad.

• 1:22:01Joe Rogan?

  When you shoot the cat, do you have to bring it somewhere and then they have to like register it?

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  Well, they took them, the the fish and wildlife.

• 1:22:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  Took the bodies, but yeah, the dogs, you know, treat them and.

• 1:22:15Joe Rogan?

  Cause uh, people eat them. Like, they taste good.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:22:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I had some.

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  Wouldn't it be kind of like tough because they're like so muscly?

• 1:22:25Joe Rogan?

  Eat the loin, like the loin, like people eat the roasts. It's it's like pork. Yeah, my friend Steve described it as a superior pork. Yeah, a lot of people eat mountain lion.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:22:38Joe Rogan?

  I know, it sounds crazy, but.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  I'd try it.

• 1:22:40Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever had bear?

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  I've never had bear.

• 1:22:43Joe Rogan?

  Bear's good.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:22:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, believe it or not, people like go, it depends on what the bear is eating. Like if you eat a bear that's eating a lot of fish, it's gonna be kind of funky. Or if you catch a bear that's been like eating a dead deer for like a couple of weeks, that's not good, you know? Like a moose, like a dead moose, that's.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Does it taste kind of rotten or something?

• 1:23:03Joe Rogan?

  Nasty, yeah, it'll smell rotten. But if you catch one that's been eating blueberries, it's like some of the most delicious meat.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:23:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, my friend Steve Rinella, he has a show called Meat Eater, and he was hunting black bears in Alaska over this blueberry patch. So he shot this blackberry and he's cooking it and as he's he's butchering it, he did it all on camera, as he's butchering it, like the fat from the bear is purple. It's like blueberry. And so like the flavor of blueberries was in the meat itself.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  That's interesting.

• 1:23:37Joe Rogan?

  It's like it's the most insane meat. It's delicious.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  I'd try that.

• 1:23:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's good.

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  I like elk, elk is my favorite.

• 1:23:45Joe Rogan?

  Um, where you guys, you live in Napa? When are you guys going back?

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Tomorrow. No, tonight.

• 1:23:50Joe Rogan?

  I've got some, I'll give you some.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:23:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I got a freezer bag. I have a commercial freezer out here.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Oh, sick.

• 1:23:55Joe Rogan?

  With some elk. I'll hook you up.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  Let's go.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  That's by far my favorite.

• 1:24:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, it's delicious.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  It's the best.

• 1:24:01Joe Rogan?

  It's the best for you, too. Like, you feel different when you eat it. You're like, oh. It's like, it's got so much nutrients in it.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  You've done the Axis deer hunting in Hawaii. We wanna do that so bad.

• 1:24:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's, it's, first of all, if you use a rifle, it's a hundred percent guaranteed.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:24:18Joe Rogan?

  Like, you can't not get a deer. There's so many of them. You have to kill them. There's, on Lanai in particular, there's thirty thousand deer and three thousand people.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 1:24:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And so in Lanai, you can actually stay at the Four Seasons. So you stay at this, like, amazing resort, and then you go hunt.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  That's awesome.

• 1:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So I went with, uh, uh, uh, well, we've gone a few years, but I went with a whole group of friends one time. It was like seven of us. We went there and we, we had the best time. We hunted and then we ate Axis deer and it's like you're, you're overlooking the oceans, this gorgeous paradise.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sounds like a great vacation.

• 1:25:01Joe Rogan?

  But there, that's a deer that evolved around tigers. And they are so fast, like, unbelievably fast. Like, if you shoot at one that's thirty yards away and it hears that the bow go off, it'll be out of the way before the arrow gets to it. They, it's called jumping the string. They just duck down and take off. It's not like they know an arrow's coming at them. They just know to run. And the way they run is they load up their muscles by getting low and then springing forward. But they do it so fast that, okay, thirty, forty, let's say forty yards. So forty yards, you've got an arrow that's going two hundred and ninety feet a second.

• 1:25:45Joe Rogan?

  And from the sound of the bow going off, the pop of the bow going, bow going off, they're gone.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Joe Rogan?

  Which is insane.

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  Can you hunt with rifle out there?

• 1:25:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:25:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. That's how they do most of the hunting out there.

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:25:56Joe Rogan?

  That, we went and, uh, I went with a bunch of, like, very experienced bow hunters, like, top of the food chain bow hunters. And we all got Axis deer. But it was a struggle. It's like, a lot of them jumped the string. A lot, you gotta, we wound up realizing that the best time to go was at night. Uh, not at night, but uh, in the afternoon, because in the afternoon, it's much windier and so it hides your sound. Cause they're just on edge because they get hunted three hundred and sixty-five days a year. There's no off-season and they have to hunt them because there's so many of them like you'll like driving at night. You'll stop and turn the headlights to a field and you just see thousands of eyes. Like they're, they're infested, infested with delicious animals and there's no predators.

• 1:26:41Joe Rogan?

  There's zero predators other than people. So they bring in snipers and people with uh, night vision and they shoot them at night. And they, they use headshots and when you go to like the restaurants in the four seasons, they serve Axis deer.

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:26:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's delicious. It's so good. What is that place? Malibu Farms, I think it is. They have insane venison sliders. From Axis deers are so good. That, I mean, it's, it's one of the most delicious game animals. But um, when we went, we did a podcast from there and you know, we call it podcast from paradise. We're all having a good time. And uh, because after that, a hundred and fifty different people went the next year. And only one of them was successful with a bow.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Every other one was like, fuck this, I'm getting a rifle. This is ridiculous. These things are so fast. Like, but it's an animal that evolved, like I said, around tigers.

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:37Joe Rogan?

  King Kamehameha in Hawaii was given Axis deer as a gift from uh, the leader of India. In like the eighteen hundreds. That's how they got there.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  And then they just took over.

• 1:27:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, they took over. They're everywhere.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Joe Rogan?

  Maui has a lot of them too. But they also have this, a company called Maui Nui. So like if you love game meat, you can actually buy game meat. So wild game meat in America, you can't sell. So if you buy, like say if you buy uh, elk, like you go to a restaurant, you buy elk.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  It's farmed.

• 1:28:08Joe Rogan?

  You're getting it from New Zealand.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:28:11Joe Rogan?

  Most likely, yeah. Most, most, I think most of the elk that they serve in restaurants in America is coming from New Zealand. Because. New Zealand's a similar situation, no predators. And they brought in all these animals and then they're just infested. And most of it's probably not even really elk, it's probably stag, which is super similar anyway. But when you get like farm raised elk, that's you're probably getting it from somewhere else. I mean, they probably have some places that are allowed to sell farm raised elk in America. I don't know what which one that would be, but wild game like that you hunt, you cannot sell. Because that's how they almost went extinct in this country.

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:28:55Joe Rogan?

  In the turn of the century.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  That makes sense.

• 1:28:57Joe Rogan?

  In the beginning of the, I guess, like the eighteen hundreds, the beginning of the nineteen hundreds. They brought elk to the point of extinction almost. And the same with whitetail deer, they, because they were market hunting. So because no one had refrigerators, you'd have to get meat all the time. And so they were just shooting all of them.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:29:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 1:29:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But in Maui, you have so many of them and then they set up a company called Maui Newey. And Maui Newey, you can buy bone broth, venison bone broth, they have like meat sticks. And you could buy actual venison and they'll freeze it and then ship it to you. So if you want wild game, it's like one of the best places. And one of the most delicious wild game too.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Axis deer is delicious.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, we want to do that hunt for sure.

• 1:29:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's a great hunt.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Joe Rogan?

  Because you can't, first of all, you're in paradise and you you're gonna see them. It's not like, if you go on an elk hunt, like you could be in the mountains for days before you find any elk. Because, you know, you gotta find out where they are, you gotta listen for bugles, you gotta, you know, you gotta glass a lot, you gotta look around. You might not be successful. If you if you bring a rifle to Lanai, you one hundred percent are gonna be successful. And you can kill a bunch of them.

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:12Joe Rogan?

  You know, you could.

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  And they like package it for you and ship it home to you or whatever?

• 1:30:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a guy named Bob the Butcher, shout out to Bob. He uh he'll butcher them for you and package it for you and all that jazz. And you know, if you give it enough time, they'll they'll freeze it. And we actually brought it back to the Four Seasons and they put it in their commercial freezer. They froze it for us and then we, you know, put it in these big Yeti coolers and brought it back on the plane.

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 1:30:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and you could like literally get a year's supply of your meat in like a few days. If you wanted to do that and just eat venison for the rest of the year.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:49Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty cool.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, we usually try to get a deer every year up in Napa, too.

• 1:30:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm. Do you guys go deer hunting?

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  Well, I don't.

• 1:30:59Joe Rogan?

  Elliot does.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  Elliot, Elliot does. I help him clean it, though. I've been doing that since I was a little girl.

• 1:31:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  My dad taught me when I was a kid and I would like, he hunted a lot and I would just, he would send me on these like routes to kick the deer out to him, you know?

• 1:31:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  So I would like do the hiking and kick him out and then

• 1:31:17Joe Rogan?

  Push, yeah.

• 1:31:18Speaker 02

  And then we would, uh, we would all gather. It was usually around Thanksgiving. We'd all gather in the basement and like cut the, cut the meat up and skin it and all that.

• 1:31:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:31:30Speaker 02

  So I like doing that part.

• 1:31:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's cool. It's a great way to be connected to what you're eating.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:31:37Joe Rogan?

  Completely different experience.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  You have a different appreciation for it.

• 1:31:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  You know, than something you just like buy at the store or in a restaurant, like

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  totally different appreciation.

• 1:31:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, one hundred percent. And also, it's like, you know, it's organic. It's an actual wild animal. And it's the best life that this animal is ever gonna live and including the best death. Because especially if you, if you're good with a rifle, if you're accurate, you practice, like it's, it's dead, like that.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:07Joe Rogan?

  And it's not like getting, it's guts eaten out by a mountain lion, you know, or

• 1:32:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:13Joe Rogan?

  anything else that's gonna eat it, or old age, or winter, all the horrible ways that animals die.

• 1:32:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Joe Rogan?

  You know, their, their teeth grind down to nothing and they essentially starve to death or

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:32:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It goes rough. It's a hard life. Yeah. So how'd you wind up leaving Oregon?

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:32:35Joe Rogan?

  So you walk in quarter mile every day, buy yourself a flashlight, try to avoid being eaten?

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:32:42Joe Rogan?

  How'd you get out of there?

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  Well, I, I figured out that I needed to, I needed to find a way to make a living in music. And so I reached out to the only person I had left in my corner musically, because like at that point, I had lost my record deal. My lawyer dropped me, my manager dropped me. Um, but I was still technically signed to U M P G Publishing. And, um, so I reached out to my like point person there who I hadn't spoken to in years. And I said, help me figure out how to make a living in music. I gotta figure this out.

• 1:33:19Speaker 02

  Because that's the only thing I really know how to do. And I'm a dropout, so I can't really get a good job.

• 1:33:24Joe Rogan?

  Editing porn?

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I don't want to do that. And so I met with her in New York. I flew to New York and we just sat down, had like this long conversation. And I had, like, ever since I was like 13, when I had first heard Stan by Eminem, I'd always been like, I love that combination of like a pretty, you know, female vocal with hip hop. And so I'd always wanted to do something like that. And so I said, I think I could write hooks for hip hop songs. Like, that was kind of like my, what I told her I wanted to do.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  And she was like, well, we just signed this producer named Alex Kidd. And that's kind of like his wheelhouse, so you guys should meet. And so I flew back to Oregon and she connected us on email. And I would go down to the little cafe to get internet. And so I would just, I emailed him and he emailed me back some beats that he had just made. And I would just sit there with my headphones in the cafe and like hum little melodies into my computer and send them back. But the first one I did was called "Love the Way You Lie."

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  And a month after I sent Alex that hook, it was a number one song.

• 1:35:01Joe Rogan?

  Wow. What was that like?

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  It was crazy. Going from like broke and living in the woods in this cabin and then writing a song that literally took over the world. Yeah, so that's kind of what took me out of Oregon. Because after that, I started getting phone calls, you know, from everybody wanting songs from me.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  Had me and Alex come out to work on detox for Dr. Dre.

• 1:35:34Speaker 02

  And Puff Daddy wanted a song, that's where Coming Home came in to play.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was just crazy. Suddenly, I was, it went from nobody caring to everybody trying to get a song.

• 1:35:49Joe Rogan?

  That's gotta be such an insane experience.

• 1:35:54Joe Rogan?

  To be like, what am I doing? I'm out in a cabin, I gotta go outside to pee, I gotta walk a quarter mile to the house. You're like completely isolated. Did you have any friends out there at all?

• 1:36:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had a couple of friends.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  I made a couple of friends when I was out there.

• 1:36:10Joe Rogan?

  And then all of a sudden you hit.

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden I was, yeah.

• 1:36:15Joe Rogan?

  Off to the races?

• 1:36:16Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, it was crazy.

• 1:36:18Joe Rogan?

  How did you adjust to that? I had to be very strange.

• 1:36:21Speaker 02

  It was, and I also felt so much pressure. Cause like, I definitely had a little imposter syndrome when I wrote that song. Cause I was just like, that was too easy. Like, it took me 15 minutes to write that hook. And I sent it off, and suddenly, everybody wanted to get a song from me. And I was like, that must have been a fluke. Like, this is never gonna happen again. I'm never gonna write another one like this, or whatever. And so, so many people were just wanting songs, and I felt so much pressure to deliver a hit song every time. You know? And I was always so hard on myself, but that became even worse.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  Just, I would just put way too much pressure on myself. I, I got invited to do so many songwriting sessions, but at, at that point, like, I had pretty much only ever written by myself. And so, being like thrown in rooms with songwriters and producers and stuff, I was so shy.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  I just felt, it was always so hard for me to open up creatively in front of strangers.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  So I would just like walk out of sessions crying and just be like, I suck.

• 1:37:29Speaker 02

  I can't do this, you know? It was hard. That was the hardest part for me.

• 1:37:36Joe Rogan?

  Just performing in front of a bunch of people?

• 1:37:38Speaker 02

  Just like, yeah, just.

• 1:37:39Joe Rogan?

  In the studio?

• 1:37:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, just trying to like create hit songs every time I go into a writing session. I just felt like there were some such high expectations on what I would deliver. And I can't force creativity. It's like it just, it happens or it doesn't, you know? But I felt like I had to deliver a hit song every time. And because I put that pressure on myself, it kind of shut down my creativity.

• 1:38:04Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:05Speaker 02

  And it made it really hard for me to do that. So then I ended up like just leaving a lot of sessions and feeling like a, like I didn't deserve to be where I was and not good enough.

• 1:38:21Joe Rogan?

  How'd you get over that?

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  Um, I didn't really.

• 1:38:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't, I don't think I ever got over that. I, I like, I did a lot of these sessions for a while because I felt like I had to and then I just kind of stopped taking them. I stopped agreeing to do them because it was just too much, it was too hard on me.

• 1:38:48Joe Rogan?

  So, explain these kind of sessions. So you, you go to a studio with producers and like, and they essentially say, "Okay, let's try to create something. Ready, go." And then you're in there and your creative process is you by yourself, like trying to connect with emotions and thoughts and ideas. And then all of a sudden you're around people and also you're a little weirded out because you've been living in a fucking cabin.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:16Joe Rogan?

  By yourself, you know?

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  That and-

• 1:39:19Joe Rogan?

  And you're editing porn for two weeks and it's like-

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  That and I just had this like hit song that was huge, it was massive. And I just felt like there was such high expectations on me, you know?

• 1:39:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  So it was very hard.

• 1:39:36Joe Rogan?

  Everybody that I've ever met who's really good has imposter syndrome.

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:42Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a part of being genuinely creative. Because I think like genuinely creative people don't have that kind of weird ego. We're like, yeah, finally, I'm getting mine. Because some people do have that, where they feel like they deserve this.

• 1:40:02Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:02Joe Rogan?

  But I feel like at least most genuinely creative people that I've talked to, when something big happens to them, they're like, this is fucking crazy. Like, all of my comedian friends, when they start to hit, like when something happens, when they get like a viral clip and then they do a Netflix special or something like that, in the beginning, they're like, bro, I'm kind of freaking out. I'm like, we all are. It's okay. Like, this is the thing. Like, you're gonna feel fucking weird.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:30Joe Rogan?

  That, that thing, whatever it is, that imposter syndrome, I think is a good thing. I think it's a sign that you have a healthy mind. Or at least, maybe not healthy, maybe that's the right word, you have a creative mind.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:44Joe Rogan?

  You know, and that you, you're, and also, everything completely changes. You have a hit song, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, number one, like, what the fuck? Like, that kind of shift in paradigm, like, that is not normal to get adjusted to. You'd have to be a complete psycho to go, to be like, alright, this is perfect. This is what I've been waiting for, you know?

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:05Joe Rogan?

  Because everybody like sees people either on television or, you know, in, you see them in the media and you think, that's a different kind of thing than me. I'm not, I'm not a famous person. I'm not popular. I'm not successful. I'm just me. Like, and then all of a sudden, people know who you are and love you. And you're like, oh my god, I'm a fraud.

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, they don't, they don't know about the shitty songs I've written.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Exactly. They don't know that like ninety-nine percent of the songs that I write suck.

• 1:41:38Joe Rogan?

  Ah, of course.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  And then the one, you know.

• 1:41:41Joe Rogan?

  I think that's the case with everything, though. You know, I talked to all my friends that are comics, all say the same thing, like, out of the jokes that they write, like, ten of them suck, and then one, one pops through. But the thing is, like, you just gotta keep cranking, keep, keep trying to find whatever it is.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  That was the hard part for me, was to keep going and keep trying.

• 1:42:04Joe Rogan?

  How would you do it? How do you, how did you, like, what is your creative process?

• 1:42:09Speaker 02

  My creative process, um, well, now, a, a big part of it is not living in L.A. I have to be out in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  And I like to be alone in the room. Even if I'm writing to somebody else's beat or something like that, I just like to sit with myself and do it.

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  And I just try to focus on how it makes me feel, you know? I, I spent some time trying to write what I thought other people wanted to hear, and I feel like those songs always sucked. And so just like, letting it flow, almost like, I'm not writing it, like, I'm channeling it or something. That's better. The songs that, like, take less effort tend to be the better songs. And the songs that I slave over, just try to get them perfect and overthink, they end up doing nothing.

• 1:43:05Joe Rogan?

  John Mellencamp told me, he wrote, "I need a lover that won't drive me crazy," in the shower.

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:09Joe Rogan?

  Like that, done. He was just singing, "I need a lover that won't drive me crazy."

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  No, it makes total sense. I write stuff in the shower, I write stuff when I'm cooking dinner.

• 1:43:20Speaker 02

  It's not like, go into a studio from this hour to this hour and write a song. Like, it never works for me to do that. So, it'll just be random. Like, this new album I'm putting out, um, there's a song called "Motivation." And I remember, it came to me when I was standing outside the vet's office when my dog was getting surgery on her ACL, or whatever they call it in dog world. I was just like pacing outside during her surgery and this like song started coming to me.

• 1:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Did she have to do that thing where they cut the bone?

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I had a dog. She had to have both of her back legs done that way. She blew out both of her.

• 1:43:56Speaker 02

  It was brutal. The recovery was brutal.

• 1:43:58Joe Rogan?

  It's horrible.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  She was also a puppy, so she had like puppy energy. And it just, we had to sedate her and it was, it was awful. Yeah.

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  And so, do you take specific time to just like sit and try to write? Or do you just like let ideas come to you?

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  I usually just let ideas come to me. I like take a lot of voice notes in my phone. Or I'll write down lyric ideas that come to me. And then, um, I need to be better about making time for it. Cause when I do make time to like go in and be creative, uh, it, it usually does. There's a balance. It's like, I can't force it, but I also can't be lazy and like just avoid it completely. You know? So, I try to balance that.

• 1:44:49Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever read The War of Art?

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  Uh, I started, I started it. I started it.

• 1:44:56Joe Rogan?

  I have copies out there. I'll give you a copy if you don't have one.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  I think I started the book on tape.

• 1:45:02Joe Rogan?

  I have copies of the book. It's a very small book. It's very easy, but it's all about that. And Pressfield was, you know, kind of like an underachiever until he was like forty. And then somewhere along the line, he realized that what he really has to do is be a professional. And so he developed this methodology of like channeling the muse. And instead of thinking of the muse as being, you know, instead of thinking of creativity as being this sort of abstract thing. He thought of it as a thing that you summon. Like, like legitimately show up every day at the same time in front of your computer or your notebook or whatever, however you do it.

• 1:45:45Joe Rogan?

  And literally say, I am here to summon the muse. Like, I'm here respectfully to call upon you for your gifts. And if you just show up every day and treat it like that, it will work. Like, which is a really crazy thought.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  It makes sense.

• 1:46:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you do that?

• 1:46:06Joe Rogan?

  I do it, yeah. I don't do it every day. But when I do it, yeah, I, I just sit there and I don't say I'm summoning the muse. I like, I think he does.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:17Joe Rogan?

  Um, what I do is I go, here we go. I just say, here we go. I say, here we go. And then I start typing. And a lot of times, it's like, almost like working out. Like, in the beginning, you're like, ugh. You know, you gotta warm up, you gotta get things going, you know, you get on the bike a little bit, crack a sweat, start stretching. You know, I'm typing in the beginning. It's just like, whoa, I fucking suck. This is, these thoughts are useless. This is not, oh.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:48Joe Rogan?

  And I got something.

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:50Joe Rogan?

  And I figured out a way to do it with it is more organic for me, because I used to just try to write things that were funny. And now what I do is just write. I write on a subject, like a thing. And then I'll let it, like, if I'm writing about, uh, whatever, fucking global change, global warming, fucking earthquakes, whatever I'm writing about, I'll let it shift to what, I don't try to stay on subject.

• 1:47:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, you let it just.

• 1:47:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it might completely change to something totally different, a completely different subject. And I just let it. And then I just try to just get out of my own way and write as much as possible. And then I go over it and try to extract things from that. And I take those and I copy and paste them into something else. And then I'll expand on that idea. Like, I'll start fresh with this idea. And it's, it's, it's just a numbers game. It's just a numbers and time game. Amount of numbers, the amount of time that you spend thinking about stuff, you get these little gifts.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:48Joe Rogan?

  And that's where the concept of the muse comes from is because it's almost like it's like some sort of a divine entity.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it feels like that.

• 1:47:55Joe Rogan?

  It does feel like that.

• 1:47:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:56Joe Rogan?

  Everybody says that, whether it's authors or musicians or comedians or anybody creative. They say it feels like it's not even my idea.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:05Joe Rogan?

  Like it just came to me out of nowhere.

• 1:48:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:48:07Joe Rogan?

  Which is the weirdest thing about the creative process. It's not like, like a, a structure you're putting together like a house. You know, like I know how to do this. I lay down the foundation. I put up the girders. I do the, uh-uh. It's like this thing, like this spiritual weird entity that you're in contact with.

• 1:48:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:48:31Joe Rogan?

  And it's not you, because you're like empty when the ideas come. They just like, make their way into your head. You're like, whoa, where the fuck did that come from?

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  But then you're responding to your emotional, like how it makes you feel.

• 1:48:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  Like reading what you're channeling or listening to it. And for me, like I focus mostly on that, like how is it making me feel? Is it causing some type of like emotional response? You know?

• 1:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:56Speaker 02

  And then those are the magic moments.

• 1:48:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why it would have to be so weird to do it in a studio.

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:03Joe Rogan?

  With a bunch of people you don't know, with, under pressure.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. For me, it doesn't work. I don't know how. Some people are like thrive in that environment. I don't know how.

• 1:49:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't get it. A lot of rappers.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  I just can't do it.

• 1:49:17Joe Rogan?

  But I think they feed off of each other, you know? And like, a lot of rappers, they tell me that like, like they're doing it for their boys. So like as they're like hitting like new lines and coming up with new, new rhymes and new raps. It's like they're, they're fucking around with their friends and like having a good time, like impressing them with like strong lines and great bars and.

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  I mean, I've definitely had some moments like that, especially like you can find people you have really good chemistry with. Then it can work.

• 1:49:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  But generally speaking, just going into a room with strangers, it doesn't, doesn't work for me. But yeah, there are some people that like I feel super connected to creatively and I can do that with them.

• 1:50:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'd imagine everybody's got their own different little process, but it's just a matter of like doing something. Make making the time for it. And I would imagine also, it's like as you get really busy and successful and there's a lot of obligations, it's harder and harder to find that still time.

• 1:50:23Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. And there's like cycles, like right now, I'm not writing at all because I'm just in, you know, album promotion mode. And so it's all about like content and all this other stuff. So I haven't written a song in a long time.

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  So and it's also kind of like a muscle, like songwriting for me. Once I get into a songwriting zone, it's like coming like way easier all the time. But I have to like warm up to get into it and get back in that headspace and, you know, warm up that muscle again.

• 1:50:57Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense, like marathon running.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, something.

• 1:51:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:03Joe Rogan?

  I think everything's like that.

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:05Joe Rogan?

  You get into like grooves.

• 1:51:07Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So when you're in the middle of promotion, like what is the difference in like, do you have ideas that still come to you and you just sort of jot them down and go, one day I'll go back to that?

• 1:51:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I just store them.

• 1:51:27Joe Rogan?

  Does this feel like, um, when you're in promotion time, does it feel weird? Like, like you gotta go out and sell it and you gotta talk about it?

• 1:51:38Speaker 02

  I enjoy all the different aspects of it, you know? I love the, it's all creative for the most part, like even just like making content and filming stuff.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a art form too. So I feel like I'm still like getting my creativity out. It's just not in the songwriting lane.

• 1:51:59Joe Rogan?

  So is it like one of those things where in the back of your mind, you're like, eventually this will come to an end and I'm gonna get back to it?

• 1:52:06Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  And then it starts to like itch at you?

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get the itch.

• 1:52:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:13Joe Rogan?

  Time to get back.

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm already feeling it.

• 1:52:15Joe Rogan?

  Are you?

• 1:52:16Speaker 02

  I'm ready to write again, yeah.

• 1:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, I would imagine that being in a place like Napa where you're like around like peaceful, you know, beautiful background and, you know, nature and it's probably like.

• 1:52:33Joe Rogan?

  Way easier to get in touch with your mind than to be trapped in Manhattan.

• 1:52:39Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:52:40Joe Rogan?

  Beep beep fuck you, you know that.

• 1:52:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly why I've stayed away from cities.

• 1:52:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I guess everybody else will find their own thing, because I have friends who thrive off that shit. I have friends who live in New York City, they can't live anywhere else, they love it.

• 1:52:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I maybe it's because I grew up in a rural environment.

• 1:53:01Joe Rogan?

  Because you're not broken, I think my friends are all broken. What the fuck is wrong with you?

• 1:53:05Speaker 02

  I think it's a comfort thing, because like I grew up in the woods, so it feels like home to be out in the middle of nowhere. But if I grew up in the city, that might feel more comfortable for me. And I might be able to hear myself think better there, but you know, everybody's different.

• 1:53:24Joe Rogan?

  I think everybody who goes to the woods realizes they need it.

• 1:53:31Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a vitamin, I really do, I think it's just like how sunlight gives you vitamin D. I think there's something about being in wilderness where you're in tune with all those life forms. Because it's not as simple as, oh, there's a bird, there's a squirrel, no, the fucking ground's alive. The trees are alive, there's energy that all these things have that is being distributed somehow or another in this strange array of of information and and of just life that's all around you that you feel, you actually feel when you're out there.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like forest bathing that Japanese practice, yeah, for sure.

• 1:54:16Joe Rogan?

  And it's also, there's no fucking cellphone service, so I think there's something to that too, because the the the earth feels cleaner. If that makes any sense, like when I'm in a place that has no cellphone service, I swear there's a subtle difference in the way the world feels.

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  It's like a vortex, yeah.

• 1:54:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because I think, like, in this room, we have wifi, we both have phones, like, I think there's signals that are just out there that we can't, you know, you can't tune it in and go, oh, that's a video my friend's sending me. You don't do that, but there's something about whatever the fuck that stuff is that I think your body recognizes as a, like, they say it fucks with bees. Like cellphone signals in particular, really fucks with bees. And like, okay, well fucks it bees, I bet it fucks with us too.

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sure, yeah.

• 1:55:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, cuz it feel like when if you're in a place with no cellphone service, the world feels different. And it's not just cuz you can't check your phone, it's the world, the actual, the actual air around you feels different.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I definitely feel that too. Yeah.

• 1:55:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think that's how people are supposed to live. I think we're doing some weird shit to ourselves, you know?

• 1:55:30Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:55:31Joe Rogan?

  But the weird shit is cool in a lot of ways, you know, cuz it's how we meet each other, how we talk to each other, you know, how we find out about new things.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Good balance of it all, you know?

• 1:55:40Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:44Joe Rogan?

  Do you have goals?

• 1:55:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:47Joe Rogan?

  What are your goals? Like, cuz some people don't, some people just enjoy just doing, they don't think about like goals.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I have like things I wanna do before I die.

• 1:55:59Joe Rogan?

  What do you wanna do?

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  Um, well, I wanna be better about putting out more music cuz because I do put so much pressure on myself, I it's taken me like five years between each album to to make one and put it out.

• 1:56:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but they're also good.

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  I second gas myself all the time and and I think like I put so much pressure on it, like this has to be the, you know, the sound that the mark I leave on the world and this is what I wanna be known for, I'm like, fuck all that, just capture a moment in time, like what am I feeling right now? What vibe am I into? And capture that zeitgeist musically and then move on to the next one, like it doesn't all have to be cohesive. I used to just be like, put so much pressure on it being cohesive and having like a certain sound or whatever. But now I'm just like, okay, right, like, right now, this album, I'm calling the genre bubble grunge

• 1:56:56Speaker 02

  cuz it's like inspired by the nineties, um, pop and grunge, kind of like com- combined together.

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  But then the next album, I might totally flip it and do something totally different.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  And that's okay. Like, it doesn't all have to be... Like, it can be different. I can, I can change it up. And so I'm, I'm...

• 1:57:22Speaker 02

  My goal in regards to that is to put out an album every year instead of every five years.

• 1:57:29Joe Rogan?

  That's a big shift.

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  It's a big shift. But I don't want to look back and just wish I would have released more. Because I have so much music sitting on hard drives and on Dropbox folder that's never come out. Because I would like make a bunch of music and then second guess it and start over and start over again. It's not good enough, it's not good enough. And like, I should have just put everything out. I should have just

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  been okay with like, you know, putting out a bad album or a bad song. It's okay.

• 1:58:01Joe Rogan?

  But you think that that's...

• 1:58:02Speaker 02

  Just like keep making it and putting it out.

• 1:58:04Joe Rogan?

  Perhaps a part of the creative process is boiling it down to something that you really...

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  I think so, but I think I take that way too far.

• 1:58:12Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that that is in part because of the pressure that you experienced for your first thing that hits is number one?

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:58:20Joe Rogan?

  Which is a crazy experience.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:23Joe Rogan?

  And you were really young.

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, and all of a sudden, boom.

• 1:58:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Maybe that was part of it. Just made me like extra hard on myself.

• 1:58:34Speaker 02

  But I want to have more fun.

• 1:58:37Speaker 02

  And not take it so seriously.

• 1:58:39Joe Rogan?

  So how do you plan on doing that? How do you plan on having more fun and not taking it so seriously?

• 1:58:44Speaker 02

  I'm already doing it.

• 1:58:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 1:58:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think, I, I just turned forty and I think that also has something to do with it. Because I'm just like seeing the end.

• 1:58:57Speaker 02

  Like, what am I doing here? Just like torturing myself with all this pressure and not just like having fun and being creative and throwing it out there, you know? So, I'm already doing that. I'm already having more fun.

• 1:59:13Joe Rogan?

  That's great, but that is one of the beautiful things that comes with age.

• 1:59:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, giving less fucks.

• 1:59:19Joe Rogan?

  Giving less fucks and just accumulating experiences to the point where you recognize like the flaws in your past thinking and why I did this and I'm not happy I did that. And you gather enough of those experiences where you get a better map of the territory. Like, ah, I think I get it now.

• 1:59:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:37Joe Rogan?

  And then you're really established now too, so it's like you don't have to be as worried about whether or not, you know?

• 1:59:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Joe Rogan?

  It's a beautiful thing that comes with age.

• 1:59:54Joe Rogan?

  The not giving a fuck or not, you know, like one of the funniest things to see an old person doesn't give a fuck.

• 2:00:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Old people who don't give a fuck and just say anything that comes to their mind is hilarious.

• 2:00:07Joe Rogan?

  They're fun.

• 2:00:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, um, thank you for being here. It was a lot of fun.

• 2:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Joe Rogan?

  I really enjoyed it. Enjoyed talking to you and I really enjoy your music.

• 2:00:16Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you. Can I talk a little bit about the album that I'm putting out?

• 2:00:20Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 2:00:21Speaker 02

  Okay. It's called Wasted Potential. It's about me wasting my potential.

• 2:00:28Speaker 02

  But it's an album where I'm telling the story of my like upbringing in small-town Wisconsin,

• 2:00:38Speaker 02

  discovering my sexuality and just like, it's like a coming-of-age story. And it's a part of my story I don't think a lot of people know. They mostly know me from working with Eminem and all the things I did after that. But I just felt like it was time. I think because I turned 40 recently, I was like thinking about my childhood a lot and like realizing I didn't appreciate it enough. I had a great childhood and so I just wanted to tell that part of my story, kind of for the first time ever. So, I'm excited to get that out and it's important, it was important for me to get it off my chest and out so that I could like finally...

• 2:01:18Speaker 02

  I was depressed about turning forty.

• 2:01:20Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:01:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, so depressed about it. But I think it's because I didn't, I didn't feel like I was like present during my childhood. And I mean, I was working a lot. And so it was important for me to get it off my chest and be at a point now where I feel like I can accept that I'm forty and actually enjoy it. And so that was the whole gist of the album.

• 2:01:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, do you really think that you have wasted potential?

• 2:01:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:01:52Joe Rogan?

  Really? How so?

• 2:01:55Speaker 02

  Um, well, when I made music for my mom growing up, it was a completely different lifestyle to now making music in, you know, LA and the big world of music. I didn't realize how much work it would be. I didn't realize the grind. And I think when I first got into it, I was kind of lazy about it. Because I was like, oh, honestly, I probably should have been a Gen Z. Because I was just like, fuck this, I don't want to do this, you know? And so a lot of decisions I made in my career,

• 2:02:34Speaker 02

  I feel like, you know, it was all my fault, basically. All the failures that I've had, I realized were my fault for being, you know, lazy or not putting in the effort and, and the grind. And, yeah, so I wasted a lot of potential. I had so many huge opportunities when I was younger in the music industry. And then I, I kind of just like, I was like, this is too much work.

• 2:03:07Joe Rogan?

  But is that a part of like a work-life balance?

• 2:03:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's what Gen Z would say, right? They're all about the work-life balance. But in, I feel like in my generation, the millennials, it was all about like work, work, work, work, work, you know?

• 2:03:29Speaker 02

  And I wasn't doing that as much. So, yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel like, like turning forty, I was like, I'm not in the place where I thought I'd be. I didn't do all the things I wanted to do by this age. And I was feeling kind of like a failure.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  And so.

• 2:03:48Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that that self-critical mindset, though, is just one of those things that's just like, it's, it's actually inherent to anybody that's creative and ambitious? Like, you're always gonna be self-critical, and that's probably one of the reasons why your music is so good. Like, this idea, like, it's not good enough, it's not good enough, and obsessing over things where you only release something every five years. But then look at the quality of the songs that you do release, that you do love. It's like, there's a balance in there. Like, a little bit of self-critical, a little bit of like, I'm not doing enough, like, it's... Let it in there, but don't believe it, you know?

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:30Joe Rogan?

  Life is life. It's life, it's not all, you know, it's not all like, leave a legacy. Because in the end, it really doesn't matter.

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:04:39Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 2:04:40Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 2:04:40Joe Rogan?

  Enjoying.

• 2:04:41Speaker 02

  That's why I'm, that's why I'm trying to have more fun.

• 2:04:43Joe Rogan?

  That's great.

• 2:04:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:45Joe Rogan?

  Both things. Both things. Listen, your music's awesome.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:04:50Joe Rogan?

  And it was awesome seeing you with Eminem, it was great.

• 2:04:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, you came to the show.

• 2:04:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and also, that's how Marshall was named. He was named after.

• 2:04:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 2:04:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So.

• 2:05:01Speaker 02

  So cute.

• 2:05:02Joe Rogan?

  Thank you, and best of luck with your album, with everything else in the future. This is really cool. I enjoyed it.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 2:05:10Joe Rogan?

  All right, thank you. All right, bye, everybody.