Bloody Mary

In 1553, Mary Tudor became the first woman to sit on the English throne - a reign of just five years, that history has remembered almost exclusively through the lens of her enemies. But today, we revisit the story of "Bloody Mary" to ask: was she really a ruthless tyrant? Joining us is Professor Kate Williams, a historian and broadcaster who specialises in Royal history. She unpacks Mary's life from start to finish and reveals the real Mary Tudor. Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Matthew Wilson. We need your help! Let us know what you want from Dan Snow's History Hit by filling in our anonymous survey here: https://forms.gle/PvgayWLkWGjYT4St6 Dan Snow's History Hit is now available on YouTube! Check it out at: https://www.youtube.com/@DSHHPodcast Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can also email the podcast directly at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 1:15Speaker 01

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• 1:23Dan Snow?

  There is a woman on the English throne for the first time in history. The year is 1553 and the crown of England has fallen to Mary Tudor, the daughter of King Henry VIII. She is the deeply Catholic daughter of Henry and his Spanish wife Catherine of Aragon. She ruled for just five years and she has picked up the nickname Bloody Mary. But is that unfair? How much that rings true in the context of this Tudor world? She was determined to restore England to Catholicism. Yes, she could be ruthless, but was she uniquely evil or bloody? Or was she just typical of ruling in that tough age?

• 2:06Dan Snow?

  Today, we cut through the myth and propaganda to see the woman behind the nickname. Her politics, her faith, her marriage, and the reality of the England she tried to govern. I'm so happy to be joined by great friend, the wonderful historian Professor Kate Williams, who also hosts the Kings, Queens and Dastardly Things podcast. So you are ideally placed to talk about this.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm so excited to be here and we've got so much to say.

• 2:29Dan Snow?

  Well, Kate, there's no one else I'd rather have here to talk about this. Welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit on YouTube. And by the way, don't forget to like and subscribe.

• 2:43Dan Snow?

  Kate Williams, good to have you back on the podcast.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Great to see you.

• 2:45Dan Snow?

  It's the forgotten Tudor, Mary. She's been reduced by history. She's been dealt with very hard.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  You are so right, Dan. Isn't it fascinating that, I mean, some monarchs choose their nicknames, some get called the great. But she is always known by history as Bloody Mary. That's what she's called.

• 3:04Dan Snow?

  Which we're going to come on to, but that's outrageous. I mean, compared to other sovereigns who have murdered and tortured and executed and committed virtual genocide across great swathes of their kingdom, she did not do that badly.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  She's not that bad. You think Henry VIII executed, I mean, we can't even count, tens upon thousands, we think. And even Edward VI, five and a half thousand men died when they stood up against the prayer book he imposed upon them. And we have all these Tudors executing their way through and Mary is the one who's called Bloody Mary. And, you know, when you look at her, she's the first queen regnant. She stakes the claim for women to be on the throne. She actually sorts out the finances to a large degree of the country. She fights for her throne and she lays down a blueprint for how you can marry and also be queen. And this is so important and yet she's often seen as a failed queen and she's counted as Bloody Mary.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  And I don't know, because it seems a strange thing to say, but she burnt, if she's criticised for burning so many people, why isn't she called Fiery Mary?

• 4:04Dan Snow?

  That's a good point.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Or Flamie Mary? Because actually.

• 4:07Dan Snow?

  She's not shedding much blood.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Aren't that necessarily that much blood. And I, sometimes I wonder whether. It's Bloody Mary comes from the, it's about menstruation, it's about misogyny. The way that the idea that then and now women are felt to be a captive of their menstrual cycle and she and tied up with the fact that she never had a child, that I think that it's all tied up in this misogynist blood image of revengeful blood Mary. And it's totally apart from the truth, so far from the truth.

• 4:37Dan Snow?

  Okay, we're gonna get into it. She also built some nice naval ships, which always is a big, gets a big tick in my book, as you know, Kate. And you think about her forebet, William the Conqueror, virtual genocide across great Sways the Kingdom. He's fine, he gets away with it. Poor Mary, anyway, let's get into her life. She is born the oldest, well, oldest surviving child of Henry VIII. She did have some older brothers, but they didn't make it, did they?

• 5:02Speaker 02

  She's the oldest surviving child. There was a young boy born who didn't make it, miscarriage or stillbirth. So when she is born in the Palace of Placentia in Greenwich in 1516, there is rejoicing. Now, it's subdued rejoicing because she's a girl, not a boy, but Henry is delighted to have this healthy baby girl who looks very Tudor. She's a little Tudor, little face, you know, the whole little Tudor look. And she's very bright, very intelligent. And Henry, as she grows up, he's very fond of her. His daughter with Catherine of Aragon, she's given this very strong education, a great education. Catherine of Aragon was educated by her own mother, Isabella of Castile, and she has a very marvelous education. So does Mary.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  So we have this situation in which, obviously, if we look at Mary with hindsight and say, oh, Henry didn't want her, he pushed her out of the way, called her the Lady Mary. But when she was young, he was rather delighted by her and was often calling upon visitors to court to show, to see, look, Mary dances and plays so beautifully, she speaks so well. Isn't she an intelligent little thing?

• 6:05Dan Snow?

  Speak multiple languages, a Renaissance, a Renaissance young woman. By the way, you mentioned Tudor, what is the Tudor? Because of beautiful, auburn hair?

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Well, fair hair, fair skin, the whole sort of, and quite, I would say, sturdy little body. That is, a sturdy little body, that's what she had. So she was a healthy little Tudor little, little, little, even though she was half Spanish, of course, she, but she, she does, I think.

• 6:29Dan Snow?

  Those Welsh genes won out. I'm glad to hear it.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Tudor win forever.

• 6:33Dan Snow?

  Because it was always said that Henry VIII looked a bit like Edward IV, didn't he? So he looks a bit like, sort of, they've that handsome, those handsome forebears. Okay. So with the big, a crisis presumably comes when Henry VIII decides he's going to get his marriage annulled, or he's going to get rid of, divorced, how we want to say, her mother, Catherine Varian, because he, she is not producing any further healthy children, particularly not his sons. Is that, what, is, is this a huge problem for Mary as well?

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Mary, yes, she has this good life in the court. She is treated to a degree as Princess of Wales. She never bears the title that is that of the male heir to the throne, but she is sent to Wales to govern Wales in the way that Arthur also was, and she's really treated as such. She has these marvelous alliances made first with the French, then with the Holy Roman Emperor Charles, a good, excellent marriages. And then everything changes. Everything changes when it's becoming clear that Catherine is not going to have any children. She's grown too old to have children. And Henry spots Anne Boleyn and becomes determined to marry Anne Boleyn, as we know, because Anne Boleyn resists him.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  And Henry is absolutely convinced that Anne is the woman for him. And as Catherine resists Henry so famously resists him, stands up to him, Henry's punishment is separating Catherine from her daughter Mary. That's how he thinks he'll beat Catherine down, by taking Mary away from her. And so Mary is separated from her mother. And she's at a court in which she knows that Anne Boleyn is coming to power and Anne Boleyn does not want Mary around.

• 8:09Dan Snow?

  Just quickly, there had never been a queen regnant, so a female queen of England, there'd been a big fight in the twelfth century about Matilda, but she'd never been crowned. There were other queens around at this point in the sixteenth century, so it wouldn't have been unheard of across Europe. Do you think Henry was? Would have been okay, perhaps, to know that Mary might have succeeded him, as you say, he was sort of, it sounds like he was half preparing her.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Well, as you say, there are so many great queens across Europe and in history, and the biggest example is Catherine of Aragon's mother, Isabella of Castile, incredibly powerful queen who chose her husband Ferdinand, and I think she is all the time in Catherine's mind, and of course, her sister Joanna of Castile was queen, even though she was constantly being controlled by her father or her husband. So women could come to the throne and be popular. And I think Catherine's feeling this, and you see, Henry, I think, is undecided. Should he go with Mary? Or should he perhaps go with his illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy, who he gives great accolades to? And then Anne Boleyn is on the scene, and she's young, she's vivacious, she symbolizes France and the future with France to him.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  And when their affair proceeds and Anne falls pregnant, that that makes all the change. When Anne is pregnant, everything changes because Henry moves to marry Anne, she's crowned. And until until this moment, Mary has pretty much been left alone in terms of her title. She's still called princess, she's still at court. And it's when Elizabeth is born in September fifteen thirty-three, that's when everything changes.

• 9:43Dan Snow?

  So Anne Boleyn has daughter Elizabeth. At this point, what does she get, does Anne shuffle her up the line of succession? Is Mary Elbert out the way?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  When Elizabeth is born, Mary is now the Lady Mary. She is now demoted. She is now demoted.

• 9:59Dan Snow?

  Can you take away the title of a prince or princess, asking for a friend?

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Well, the basis is that she's illegitimate. So that's Henry's basis, that she's illegitimate. Yes. Well, either the the the hot topic of the moment, can Prince Andrew's title be removed?

• 10:17Dan Snow?

  We are not about to say that Andrew is illegitimate.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  No, certainly not. Well, this is the historical precedent. As Henry said, that both Mary and later Elizabeth were not princesses because they are illegitimate. So she's now the Lady Mary. She's told that she won't have the household in the same way. She was told that she won't be royal like she has been. And she has to go and attend on Elizabeth, and she's treated very badly by those attending on Elizabeth. And she loves Elizabeth. She's actually a very maternal woman. She loves Elizabeth. She loves her little brother Edward VI later, and she never blames Elizabeth for how badly she's treated by those around Elizabeth, which I think shows her very forgiving, merciful nature. So she's sent to attend on Elizabeth and she doesn't see her mother. And when she falls ill, her mother begs to nurse her. She's in her teenage years.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  And Henry refuses because he really wants to beat Mary and Catherine down. He wants Mary now to say, yes, you are the supreme head of the Church of England. Yes, the marriage was illegitimate of you and my mother. And she was only dowager princess of Wales, and I am a bastard. That's what he wants her to say. And he's trying to force it out of her over and over. So it means that Catherine dies without seeing Mary. Catherine dies in early 1536, in January 1536. And Mary receives the news and is heartbroken.

• 11:39Dan Snow?

  Does Mary agree, does she ever get reconciled with her father, Henry VIII? Does she ever come out and say, fine, you're the supreme head of the Church of England and I am a bastard?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  It's very interesting because Mary initially is very politic with Henry. When she hears about his marriage to Anne Boleyn, she actually writes him a very congratulatory letter. So she's very clever in that way. But I think when she's been separated from Catherine, she gets more and more distressed and more really following in her mother's footsteps really. As a Catholic martyr, Anna Whitlock has written very well on how Catherine sees herself as this Catholic martyr. And I think Mary's doing the same. And then when Anne Boleyn is executed, she's very hopeful that perhaps she can be reinstated. Oh no, that's absolutely the opposite. Henry doubles down. He says, you're not going to be princess.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Even though Anne Boleyn has been executed, you are not going to be princess. You are not going to be seen in this way and you must submit to me. So finally. It's often said, isn't it, that Jane Seymour was very fond of Mary and helped Henry like

• 12:43Dan Snow?

  This is his third wife.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  This is his third wife. So, Amberlyn's executed, the day after she's executed, Henry is betrothed to her lady-in-waiting, Jane Seymour, one in, one out, he's very fast. And it's often said that Jane Seymour softens his attitude towards Mary. But what really softens his attitude, that Mary finally agrees after the death of Amberlyn, that she will assent to these things that Henry wants her to agree to, that he's the head of the Church of England, that the marriage between him and Catherine was illegitimate, that she is illegitimate. And once Mary agrees to that, Henry showers her with favours. He's delighted. Jane sends her a ring, Henry says you can have lovely clothes, he says she can live at Hampton Court. And in the later years of Henry's reign, Mary, I think she lives this very clever

• 13:27Speaker 02

  life. She becomes very fond of her little brother, Edward VI, the son, the future Edward VI, Prince Edward, the son of Jane Seymour. She becomes very fond of him. She goes over to see him, even though there's a 28-year age gap. She goes over to see him, spends time with him. And at court, she is really entertained, she's liked, and this is all because she has shown submission to her father.

• 13:50Dan Snow?

  And she's kept off the marriage market, isn't she? Because surely Henry would think it's quite advantageous marrying his daughter to some important foreigner or grandie. But is she not allowed to marry? Does Henry sort of keep that back?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Good question, because she does have these fabulous arrangements, marriages made for her when she's just a small child. But the problem is now, is that she's the Lady Mary. She's not a princess. So she isn't as powerful or as valuable on the marriage market as she was before. He's pushed her out, he's saying she's not heir, he's saying that I'll have other children. And also, Henry himself doesn't want to marry her off, because he thinks that if she, he knows, he knows that she's still a Catholic, really. If he marries her off into Catholic Europe, that could create a power base. If he marries her off into the Habsburg family, it could create a power base, and this could make her dangerous. So she's being kept at court, she's being watched, she's under the eye of all of Henry's courtiers, but she's also

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Had a much more tolerable life than she ever has had before. And this, I think, is because she's actually a very successful diplomat. She plays the game, she she gives obeisance to her father, and that's what Henry wants. He's determined to have everyone submit to him.

• 15:03Dan Snow?

  It's such a weird world. You're so familiar with this world. It's such a weird world where they're very, your very presence, your very existence is a threat to certain groups or people in society. You don't have to do anything at all. It's just the blood coursing through your veins. The fact that you are a living, breathing entity is itself threatening.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  You are a threat in the same way that Mary, Queen of Scots, all of her power comes the fact that she is next in line after Elizabeth the first. But that's what makes her a huge threat. That's what makes her public enemy number one to Cecil. So Mary is a threat in the same way, and especially because we don't see any more sons. We don't see five more sons popping up. And in fact, increasingly, as Henry becomes iller and iller, and it's very clear that he is going to die. All of the near heirs after Edward are females. So we have Edward. And then we have Elizabeth, and we have Mary, and we have the Greys, and all of them are all females. So the hopes of Henry and the hopes of the court and the hopes of everyone who believe in male rule are invested

• 16:06Speaker 02

  in this very young boy, who after Henry dies, will come to the throne when he's only nine.

• 16:12Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're going to be back after this break.

• 16:16Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. I never thought about the history of coffee. You make it, you drink it, nothing more to it. Then I've had a TikTok video about how people in the 1700s would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. I love that sort of discovery, a detail, but suddenly you're imagining how people lived and drank and socialised. Now I wonder what all baffled historians about us, mugs. It's a ceramic vessel, but crucially, it has a handle. Well, that's the joy of TikTok, folks. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 16:58Dan Snow?

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• 17:41Dan Snow?

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  The coolest flex at brunch these days is not the Bloody Mary with the bottomless gold flake caviar topping.

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• 19:33Dan Snow?

  And then he doesn't last. Those hopes are shattered.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  His hopes are shattered.

• 19:36Dan Snow?

  Edward the sixth dies as a teenager.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  He dies aged 15, and he's instored Protestantism. And he and Mary have quite a good relationship, even though he's very angry with the way she continues to celebrate Latin Mass. She continues to be a Catholic, and the Holy Roman Emperor sometimes stands up for her. But in general, Mary is pretty much left alone. If she stays out of his hair, he leaves her alone. And then, as Edward grows sicker and sicker, his controller, the Duke of Northumberland, so first the Seemores controlled him, Jane Seymour's brothers, then they fell, and now it's the Duke of Northumberland and Dudley. And Dudley, he marries Lady Jane Grey to his son, Guilford Dudley, and they're married not long before Edward dies.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  And the whole plan is that Edward will take out Mary and Elizabeth from the succession. So I should mention that before Henry VIII dies, he makes a will in which he says, number one, the throne goes to Edward and his sons, who he thinks are going to be plentiful. Then it goes to Mary, then it goes to Elizabeth. Now, the only real reason that Henry VIII made that will is because he wants to make sure that the Scots get nowhere near the throne, because his sister Margaret married into the Scots throne, and her descendants are, of course, Mary, Queen of Scots. He doesn't want the Scots anywhere near the throne. So he says, first it goes to Edward, then it goes to Mary, then it goes to Elizabeth, and then the next consideration are the descendants of his younger sister, Mary, who was married

• 21:05Speaker 02

  to the French king, and then makes her own love marriage, and that's where the Grey family comes from. What happens when Edward is dying is the throne then should go to Mary, but he and his protector. I mean, that would be terrible because she would undo everything they've done in terms of Protestant reforms. So what they do is they change, they make a new will, they overturn Henry VIII's will. And they say, the throne is not going to go to Mary, not even going to go to Elizabeth. It's going to go to Lady Jane Grey.

• 21:34Dan Snow?

  My cousin, who's his cousin?

• 21:35Speaker 02

  That is his cousin, his cousin, Lady Jane Grey. And she's a very young woman, she's only fifteen, she's a very young woman. And Edward, how much power has he, how much of this decision is his to exclude his sisters? I don't think he, at this point, he's very sick, he's overwhelmed his.

• 21:52Dan Snow?

  He's a teenager.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  He's a teenager, any idea will come to his head, any idea will come, yeah, all this will do, yes.

• 21:58Dan Snow?

  Easily led.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  And certainly he wants Mary out of that succession, he says, I'd like to keep Elizabeth, but, but absolutely not. Dudley says, you know, both have got to go out because he wants his daughter-in-law on the throne. And his son and his vision is that Lady Jane Grey will come to the throne. And really, he and his son are going to be the power behind the throne. So Edward dies on the sixth of July, fifteen fifty-three, the news is kept quiet, no one knows. Jane is told on the tenth that she's now going to be queen. She's upset, she doesn't want to do the job, but she really has to submit. And then she goes into the tower and it seems as if Mary, well, that's the end of her possibility of her being queen.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Jane's in the tower, Jane and Dudley have the army, they have the seal, they have the treasury. They have the tower, so Mary has absolutely nothing.

• 22:53Dan Snow?

  Mary's got the people.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Mary has the people, and it's so funny, isn't it? I love this bit, Dan, it's so funny. Because Mary, she has the people, she has Henry VIII's will, she is legitimate heir. And of course Jane is not John, Jane is a woman, you know, possibly if Jane had been John, it might have been different. Mary, she's, she's asked to go to Edward the, Edward VI's deathbed. And she realizes it's a trap, so she goes really fast, she gets on a horse and she rides so fast away from London. So they can't get her, she knows they're going to capture her. She flees to her huge estate, she's got giant. Gantick estates that Henry VIII left her in his will, East Anglia and Suffolk. And there she starts to work against Lady Jane Grey. And Lady Jane Grey, when she comes to the throne, she's very unpopular. People are saying, where's Mary?

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Where's Mary? So you're, Mary has, as you say, the people. And Mary writes to the Holy Roman Emperor and says, you know, could you help me get the throne? And the Holy Roman Emperor said, no, I'm sorry. You've just got no, absolutely no chance.

• 23:51Dan Snow?

  Is that right?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  No chance. They've got everything. They've got the army, they've got the power. So just submit, you've got no chance. And Mary, against all the odds, gains the throne. Dudley sets out to try and capture her. And when Dudley leaves the tower to capture her, everyone else, they're like rats leaving a sinking ship. They think, oh, actually, uh, maybe Mary is the queen. Uh, okay, bye Jane, sorry, off we go, off we go chaps. And they all leave the tower, then declare that Mary is queen. All of London cheers and cries and says how marvelous. And Mary has a, an army of men, ready to fight with her. But it is a bloodless coup. She then enters London on the third of August with Elizabeth by her side. And she is cheered by everyone.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  And she has gained the throne with nothing, only a, a small army she gathered in, around her estates of men, men who liked her. Dudley had everything and Mary gains the throne with the power of legitimacy. So really, she is a warrior queen. She's never credited as such, but she is a warrior queen. And I love it because, um, you know, the Holy Roman Emperor, of course, um, oh, actually, uh, could you please let Mary know that we were getting ready to help her?

• 25:01Dan Snow?

  You're with her all the way.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  We were, we had ships ready, we just hadn't told her yet. So now she's won, everyone's on Mary's side. So Jane is put in the tower, Dudley is put in the tower, he's executed. But what I find so interesting, Dan, is the fact that everyone, the Holy Roman Emperor, who's so helpful, is telling Mary to execute Jane. And she won't. This woman who's tried to seize her throne, and yes, Jane was forced into it. But then she did write Jane the Queen on documents and she was bearing the crown. Mary will not execute her. She, I think she's, she absolutely sees this as her cousin and that she was a pawn in the world of these men. And she puts her in the tower along with Guildford, but she won't execute her. And that, what a merciful tutor she is. Henry VIII would not have done that.

• 25:46Dan Snow?

  Yeah, there's, she could have been much bloodier.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:49Dan Snow?

  Eventually, though, we should say, what happens to Lady Jane Grey?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Well, Lady Jane Grey is executed and it's all her father's fault because Mary Comes to the Throne is very popular. And it was a very interesting podcast, fascinating podcast, not just the one of not just the Tudors on History Hit. Valerie Shute was talking to Professor Lipscomb all about how when Mary comes to the throne, everyone's not suddenly panicking that it's going, that she's going to be a Catholic. They think she might stay Protestant and there isn't much conversation about her gender at all. She's very supported, very popular, and that isn't always what we think. So Mary is popular, but what changes everything is when she starts talking about marriage. So Mary is very much liked and actually Mary does say, I wish I could remain single.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  So we think that Elizabeth's only the Virgin Queen, but Mary does say, I wish I could remain single, but I can't. I have to marry and produce heirs. And Mary wants to marry Philip of Spain, son of the Holy Roman Emperor. She was actually betrothed to the Holy Roman Emperor when she was a little girl, but now he says he's too old and too tired and I just can't do it. So here's my young son. And Mary wants to marry Philip. He's a Catholic superpower and everyone is very concerned about this, that he's going to take over the country. Because this goes to the heart of the problem with queens is that you are a queen. You're the most powerful, the most wealthy woman in the country, perhaps in the world.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  But when you marry, everything, you own your body, your fortune, your money, your property, everything is your husband. So when a queen marries, does that make her husband the total possessor of her country?

• 27:25Dan Snow?

  And if you marry a foreigner, then you're allowing a foreign entity to take control of England. But if you marry a domestic person, it causes that all the aristocrats fall out with each other because you're choosing one, you know, Earl or Duke or something. And, and the others are going to be furious.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. All the factions get furious. We see this with Mary, Queen of Scots, who can you possibly marry? You wish there was sort of a 16th century sperm bank that queens could just consult and never have to marry anyone. So Mary wants to marry Philip of Spain. This is very unpopular. A rebellion starts up, Wyatt's rebellion, Thomas Wyatt, uh, whose father was suspected of adultery with Anne Boleyn. And Thomas Wyatt sets up this rebellion and guess who is part of the Thomas Wyatt rebellion? Who's very much part of it is Lady Jane Grey's father. You'd think with his daughter in the tower, Lady Jane Grey's father might have said, okay, I'll stay out of trouble now. But he gets involved in Wyatt's rebellion. Now, Mary puts down this rebellion very effectively.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  What she does is she sends some men down to meet the rebellion and asks for what they want to say. And then she uses the words against them. She goes up to Guildhall and gives this incredible speech and she says, I've never been a mother, but I know that a mother loves her subjects as much as I love you and I love you as a mother does. And you love me and we're going to put down this rebellion in a speedy way. She's a warrior queen again. And when Wyatt turns up in London, everyone just put, that's the end of him. It's put down, he is imprisoned and Lady Jane Grey's father, he was involved. And that is, that's the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of Mary and Lady Jane Grey. She has to execute her. And I think had her father never got involved in Wyatt's rebellion, then I think that eventually

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Lady Jane Grey would have been quietly freed and go and sleep there somewhere quietly and don't bother me.

• 29:08Dan Snow?

  But again, we should put it in context. Henry VII, her grandpa, Henry VIII, her father, just executing people left and right, whether they're elite rivals for the throne or people involved in uprisings, of which there were many in both of those two reigns. So, so far, normal service. I mean, there's nothing unusually bloody about this.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Everyone, I mean, Henry obviously bumps off various wives, executes Amberlyn, executes Catherine Howard, changed the law so that you'd execute people who are in the grip of madness. So he can execute Catherine Howard's lady-in-waiting Jane Berlin. And I always feel very sorry for Henry Norris, who is Henry's groomer, Henry VIII groomer of the stool, goes to the loo with him, accompanies him to the loo in that arduous effort. And he's best friends with Henry VIII and then he's accused of adultery with Amberlyn out of nowhere. I mean, it's totally trumped up. He's executed and Henry executes, I mean, we can't even count how many people Henry executes. So.

• 29:56Dan Snow?

  Anyone with a drop of Plantagenet blood.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Oh, off with their heads, off with their heads.

• 30:00Dan Snow?

  Go on.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  And so Mary is very merciful. She really, she lets Lady Jane Grey off, she lets Dudley off. And it's only Wyatt's rebellion that pushes her into it. And of course, Elizabeth is also seen to be involved in Wyatt's rebellion. When Wyatt goes on trial, says, oh, I told Elizabeth to move. I mean, throws Elizabeth under the bus. Yeah, why did he do that? And Elizabeth is under suspicion, but Mary. You know, she puts her under suspicion, she's questioned, but Mary keeps her under a house arrest that is, you know, very fair, it's not imprisonment. So although that's pretty miserable for Elizabeth, in terms of what other Tudors, other monarchs would do to sisters that might get swept up, whether Elizabeth knew about it or not, it's very fair.

• 30:41Dan Snow?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that is, that is what it requires to be a monarch in this period. I mean, Machiavelli would approve, one strike and you're out, or two strikes.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Call it off.

• 30:49Dan Snow?

  Anyway, right, so then let's get to the Catholic thing, because obviously this is a huge problem for her in terms of her historic reputation with the Protestant Brits and writers that would follow in the centuries to come. She tries to reverse that Protestant revolution, Reformation in England, doesn't she, and bring back Catholicism.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Mary tries to reverse the revolution. Now, what she's not going to do is take people's lands off them, because people have got very rich out of the Protestant Reformation, all these lovely monastic lands, and they've bought giant houses on. She's not going to do that.

• 31:22Dan Snow?

  That would be political suicide.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  That would be political suicide, because what do people care most about? They want to keep their houses. But she's going to let people keep their lands. She very wisely has a Protestant burial ceremony for her brother Edward VI. I mean, that again would be a disaster if she didn't do that. But now she's saying that we need to introduce the Catholic ceremonies once more. She's always been a loyal Catholic. She wants to have the same, and this is becoming increasingly problematic. Now, many people, particularly in the countryside, have still been keeping up their Catholic religion.

• 31:52Dan Snow?

  I'm quite happy with that.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Throughout the time of Edward. I mean, Henry, we cannot say, Henry VIII was not a Protestant. Henry VIII was someone who really kept to the rituals.

• 32:01Dan Snow?

  Ambiguous.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Ambiguous. So many people in the countryside have kept, really, were quite shocked and stunned by what Edward VI was doing. So we mustn't imagine that the idea of bringing back Catholicism was entirely unpopular with the whole country, this is looking at with hindsight. But there are very many people who are fighting for Protestantism, and this is where we come to what is the biggest black mark, the blacking mark, which is why Mary is called Bloody Mary, is the burning of the Protestant martyrs. Those those who will not relinquish the Protestant religion, those who fight for it. Now, some of them are, um, you know, some of them are, you know, ordinary men and women, and some of them are are great, great elites.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  But these people who are put to the flames, even the Holy Roman Emperor says, Mary, I think, could you kind of stop this? Maybe this isn't a good idea, but this is what becomes talked about across the continent. John Fox, in his Book of Martyrs, writes about these burnings in such emotive, emotive language. And this is what is remembered of Mary.

• 33:08Dan Snow?

  And before people think it was a giant pogrom, it was what, two hundred and fifty or so people, how long?

• 33:13Speaker 02

  We think it's about two hundred and eighty four, about two hundred and eighty four people were burned. And it's an interesting question, isn't it, Dan? If she'd executed them, would would she be more popular? And I I wonder, actually, I think even if even even if she'd executed them, as they were sort of religious. The the those who disagreed with, you know, many people had, Henry had executed people for religious reasons. Elizabeth would also execute people for religious reasons. If Mary had executed them, would she still be called bloody? I think she would, I think she would, but that is an interesting question. But certainly, even the Holy Roman Emperor said to her, these burnings are a mistake. You should stick to executions.

• 33:52Dan Snow?

  Okay, interesting. And why did she burn? Because that was actually liturgy, that was the, that was by the by the book what Catholics should do to heretics.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  You should burn them. And Mary feels she is saving their souls, she's saving the souls of the country. She is purging their souls and they are put to being burned. And it is shocking, it is terrible for this woman who had been so merciful to Lady Jane Grey. So merciful to Elizabeth, a merciful Tudor, and then she is engaged in Protestant burning. So although it is so fascinating that Mary, who. I mean, she has a shorter reign than Henry VIII and Elizabeth I, of course, but Mary, who put to death so many fewer people than any of the other Tudors. Is the one who is most criticised, most attacked. It's better, it's almost as if it's better for Henry VIII to chop off the heads of a few wives and a few best friends, but not.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Mary to do what she done because they are written about by Fox and thi- this becomes part of the Protestant story after Mary, Mary dies.

• 34:53Dan Snow?

  Yeah, you mentioned that the great 16th century bestseller, that book that Fox wrote about these martyrs.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  It is a bestseller, top of the Sunday Times bestseller list, it was emotive, emotive language.

• 35:02Dan Snow?

  I think it's a story, I think Drake, one of the only books he takes around the world in his circumnavigation of the globe, I think is that book. I mean, it's just like, it's a sort of, it's almost a sort of religious text for these Protestants. Does it also not help that these Protestants are the type of people, when you're killing Protestants, you're killing people that like sort of live next to the key power centers, these people, and these are people with the printing presses, these are sort of merchants, they're, they're, they're members of the of those kind of classes that it's foolish to alienate.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Exactly, and they are members of this class who are foolish to alienate. Many of them are the elites, many of them are the metropolitan elites, they, they will make it very known all around the country what's happening. So the difference is, is when Edward VI puts down, and his protectors, puts down the rebellion in Devon and Cornwall.

• 35:48Dan Snow?

  Oh.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  For many people, that's, that's in the countryside.

• 35:51Dan Snow?

  Lancashire darling.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yes, thousands of people in the countryside, yes.

• 35:53Dan Snow?

  Lancashire, no one cares about them.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  But this is the city, and Mary, it's fascinating, Mary just see a flowering of, of presses, the stationers' company, a flowering of presses and writing in her reign, and this is what, you know, it's sort of a disaster for her, that there's more writing in her reign, there's more printing in her reign than there ever really has been, and a lot of this increasingly is being used to condemn her and all of the Protestants who have fled to Europe, so they're out of the melee, they're not at risk, and I, I wonder whether this, does this sort of characterize what they write, that they're not in danger, they're not at risk, they get crosser and crosser, because, well, they're, they're not, they're not there being, standing up and being burned.

• 36:32Dan Snow?

  And, and the cross content is the stuff that goes viral.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  It goes viral.

• 36:36Dan Snow?

  As we've, as we've learned recently.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Viral, but it's interesting as the question, isn't it, that Mary tries and tries to have a child, she has two phantom pregnancies, she's desperate to have this child, so are the country, the country's desperate for her to have a child as well, had she had that baby, it would have been a Catholic dynasty, it would have been a Catholic dynasty, and, and the story would have been very different.

• 36:58Dan Snow?

  Can I ask, I've always wanted to know, so, so Mary is married to, as you said, the superman of Catholic, probably arguably the man who presided over the Spanish and Portuguese empires at their height, possibly the greatest empire ever assembled in history at that point, arguably. Every continent's sun never sets in the empire, that's Philip of Spain. If they'd had a kid, if they had a son, would that son have inherited that Spanish and that Portuguese empire and England as well?

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Theoretically, that son would have taken everything. Now, Philip of Spain is made a king by his father because his father realizes Mary's not going to make him a king. Mary isn't going to call him a king. And so he's made a king by his father, so he does get the title of king, because it'd just be too insulting to be prince next to a queen. Too insulting. And this, this, this is a, is a marriage of two superpowers. It's a huge marriage. And yes, their child would be everything. Their child would be everything. Their son would be everything, which is why Mary's so desperate to have a child. And it is heartbreaking when you read, you know, that she's so convinced she's pregnant. But, I mean, how do you know at the time? There's no pregnancy tests. There's no, there's no scans. How do you actually know whether you're pregnant or not?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  And many women, I think, I think we often kind of mock Mary's phantom pregnancies and, but, but actually most Tudor women, they didn't necessarily, you don't really know that you're pregnant until you feel the baby quickening. You don't really know, because obviously, as we know, you can continue your cycle through pregnancy. So they, so a lot of people were very sympathetic to Mary over the pregnancies. They, they, many people, men and, men and women have been hopeful of a pregnancy that never came to anything. So there's a lot of sympathy for her. But, and I think that one baby would have changed everything and it would have been a super baby, as you say, the, the super king.

• 38:38Dan Snow?

  Would have changed the course of history. Would have changed the course of history, that baby. So no baby is forthcoming. Does Philip, Philip comes to, comes to England, doesn't he? There's a famous meeting where he advises that the English build more ships for, for the navy and stuff like that, which he would come to regret a few years later. But he plays a part in English life.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  He does. Philip comes back and forth. Now, initially, Philip and his men don't really like English, English life. They say that we're always drinking, we're always eating and don't have any culture conversation whatsoever. So they aren't super fond of life in London. I mean, what are they talking about? We are very cultured. And yet, eventually, Philip gets, gets, he gets, I think he gets, he gets very involved in Britain. Now, that's, that was. The great fear of Mary marrying Philip was that he would drag England into his wars, that the big European wars Philip would drag Mary into them, and that is the huge fear. So it's made very clear. So there's a marriage contract that's drawn up when Mary marries Philip.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  And it's very interesting, he said that, you know, you will be, you will be the consort. And it's made very clear that when Mary dies, you don't get any more. When Mary dies, you are out of the picture. Now, you might, we might think, well, yes, of course, when Mary dies, Philip's not going to have any more power. But people thought that he would do. And when you, but fast forward a few years later, uh, Mary the second, when James second is deposed, she has the key claim, she's James second's daughter. After she dies, William continues on the throne. And he could have remarried and had children, and he does not. So that, I think, is quite radical. Mary's marriage contract, that marriage contract is very radical, and Philip is not allowed to wage war.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  And yet, as Mary gets, I think, iller and more sad that she hasn't had a child, she becomes more indulgent, and she agrees to get involved in Philip's wars. And this is, this, this leads to the disastrous loss of Calais.

• 40:36Dan Snow?

  Because that was the last English possession on the continent, wasn't it, Calais? And, oh, I said, I didn't know that. So that's the result. Mary allows England to get sucked into war against France because the Spanish are always fighting the French.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  And that's, you're absolutely right. So that is one of the big problems of marrying Philip of Spain. Not just that all the English hate him and think he's going to be this Catholic takeover man, but also because France hate him as well. So marrying Philip of Spain is immediately a thumbing of the nose to France. And France is often trying to get involved in plots. There's another plot that poor old Elizabeth gets suspected of being involved in, and Mary gets panicked that they're going to kill her. So France is now the enemy because Mary is married to Philip. So it's really, if queens, queens could not marry, it would have been better.

• 41:19Dan Snow?

  It would have been much better. And they capture Calais, and that's a, that's a disaster. The first 100 years that the English throne does not have land in France.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  It's total disaster. And it, and Mary's been having terrible harvests. It's very bad luck. Terrible harvests, economic problems. And then on top of this, the news about Calais comes. And this really sort of fuels her unpopularity at this point.

• 41:42Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Down Snow's History. We'll be back after this break.

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• 42:37Speaker 06

  In a world where swords were sharp.

• 42:40Speaker 07

  And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians.

• 42:46Speaker 06

  Me, Matt Lewis.

• 42:47Speaker 07

  And me, Dr. Eleanor Yanaga. Dive headfirst into the mud, blood, and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

• 42:55Speaker 06

  So for plagues, crusades, and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

• 43:10Dan Snow?

  So before she gets ill and dies, let's just sum up for me, how should we think about Mary, the first ever queen to sit on the throne of England? And how, just all in, what, how can we, how did she perform, would you say? What's the judgment?

• 43:26Speaker 02

  First ever queen regnant, the first ever queen regnant to make it clear what the king consort was, what the prince consort was. And that's the, that's absolutely the blueprint that Victoria and Albert used. And of course, then comes on to Elizabeth II and Philip. You're not a king, you're just my advisor, and you can't expect me to get involved at all in your foreign wars, which she does. So she's a queen regnant, she lays the blueprint for marriage. She is initially very popular. Her council has men of the reformed religion upon it. So she is someone who listens. To people, she she is very much liked. She creates this fostering, this court of culture. She's the first coronation ceremony of a woman, so they have to really adapt it for women. She gets some Queen Consort stuff and some King Consort stuff.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  And she has this huge legacy of the first Queen Regent. And also one who actually fought for the throne, the warrior queen who fought for the throne, not once but twice. Number one, seizing it from Lady Jane Grey's evil Northumberland who tried to put, who tried, who was trying to capture her. And then against Wyatt's Rebellion. So she does have this incredible legacy. And it's so interesting to read the sources of the time. Because, you know, people are saying, oh, look, you know, they're thrilled to have her on the throne and she's often seen as so dull and unappealing. But a lot of the commentators, when Mary comes to the throne, they start saying, oh, fashion is back. Fashion and glamour is back after the Times Redwood the sixth now. So what I think Mary's greatest legacy perhaps is,

• 44:57Speaker 02

  yes, she's Queen Regent, yes, she makes a blueprint of of marriage, yes, she governs, she shows a woman can do it. An actual act is passed, an act declaring that the royal power of this realm to be in the Queen's Highness as fully and absolutely as ever it was and in any of the most noble progenitors, kings. So it's an Act of Parliament actually says she is just as royal as any of those kings. It's very interesting. I actually looked it up on the, before I came here, I looked it up on the parliamentary act. And on the same day, they're also discussing repairing a cauzy between Bristol and Gloucester and buying of leather. So on the same day, they make this really important statement about monarchy and female monarchy. They then say, okay, we've done that. Now, what about buying leather? Let's look into this matter.

• 45:41Dan Snow?

  Just important.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  It is just as important, but this act that says the regal, the royal regal power of this realm is in the Queen's person is what makes it after that, impossible to contest the possibility that a woman can come to the throne. Whether it's Elizabeth, whether it's Anne, whether it's Victoria, or whether it's Elizabeth the second.

• 46:01Dan Snow?

  Amazing. And does she wield that power? I mean, we've talked a lot about her decision making. I mean, is she, can we see her in the legislation? Can we see her in the decisions that are made? Is she, is she day to day running the show?

• 46:13Speaker 02

  She is day to day, I'd say, making decisions, being part of the power. Now constitutional monarchy in terms of the power of parliament and the power is in the power of ministers is advancing. And you see this with both Elizabeth and Mary because what's the difference? When you are male king, your ministers, your advisors are always with you. They're always with you the whole time because you have men in your apartments. That can't happen when you're a queen. Your ladies in waiting can be in your apartments with you. But you can't have, say, Henry Norris going to the loo with you and being a powerful advisor because you can't have, you can't be attended by men. So there is this separation that we get with queens, both Elizabeth and Mary, between the male advisors and the female household that we didn't have with Henry VIII.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  And as a consequence, you do see Mary and then also Elizabeth being excluded from some of the decisions that the men make.

• 47:01Dan Snow?

  It's funny though, you're just asking that question. I feel like it's a bit sexist because I've just said to you, oh, but is she, what's she doing? The fact is, you expect Henry II or Henry VIII to be off spending the whole summer hunting and whoring his way around the kingdom, doing absolutely no work, not being in the office at all.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Out of office on.

• 47:17Dan Snow?

  Yeah, out of office on. And here I am going, oh, what does Mary actually do all day? You know, it's interesting that, I mean, the work ethic of some of those medieval male kings would have been absolutely rubbish.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  You're, you're so right. And I think she does take it very seriously and she does take it very seriously. And we do see her creating a real financial buffer in the coffers because Henry VIII spent everything. He spent everything that was possibly. Spendthrift, Edward VI was not himself a spendthrift, but his advisors and protectors spent an awful lot. So Mary, I think, does create, her economic policies are good. I think her overall idea about bringing on different men to the Privy Council, I think she's very wise in many ways, very wise most of all about not taking back anyone's lands. That would be a total disaster. And she does, I think, have a, have an economic interest, have an interest in the, in the, in the country. And she does, she's an intelligent woman who

• 48:05Speaker 02

  deals directly with the country. And yet, all of this is totally ignored. And, and Elizabeth never felt, Elizabeth, very interestingly, was very fond of her half-sister. Elizabeth, even though she was put under house arrest most of the time, Elizabeth, we might, sometimes in history, we devalue Mary to make Elizabeth a heroine, but Elizabeth never felt that way. She always felt that very much that Mary had been a queen regnant.

• 48:30Dan Snow?

  I think. So much of our opinion of kings and queens also comes down to how long they're on the throne. Because length of, length of tenure means you just sort of outlive your criticism, you outlive all your critics and everyone else rises and falls and you just stay there, don't you? Whether that's Henry the Second, or even Henry the Eighth, or Elizabeth, or even George Third. And I wonder, she just suffers because she dies.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  She suffers because she dies. She dies so early. She had so little chance to put in her reforms and...

• 49:00Dan Snow?

  She comes through, how old is she when she comes to the throne?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Thirty-seven.

• 49:02Dan Snow?

  Thirty-seven, dies at forty-two. So of course it looks like a little sort of, that reign never really got started.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Yes, and, and all of the, those who hate her, all of the ones in Europe, they don't have long to wait. I mean, five years is nothing. Then they can come back and say, hooray, we are all back, we are back on the throne. And she does, she does think briefly about whether or not she, she tries to encourage Elizabeth to marry the Prince of Piedmont. And Elizabeth says, I'm not marrying the Prince of Piedmont because Elizabeth doesn't want to be out of the country. Elizabeth does not want to be out of the country and, you know, sent off to Europe. She wants to be in the country because she knows Mary is ill. She's creating her power structures around her. She doesn't want to be sent away. And then Mary says, well, if you don't marry the Prince of Piedmont, I'm going to make Mary Queen of Scots my heir. I'm going to do it, you know?

• 49:50Speaker 02

  And Elizabeth calls her bluff and says, okay, go on, do it. And Mary won't do it for two reasons. Number one, she can't really overturn Henry the Eighth's will.

• 49:59Dan Snow?

  Yeah, but it's critical.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:01Dan Snow?

  Because I can't skip you for a cousin, which is exactly what they tried to do.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  This is why, yes, exactly. This is why I got rid of Lady Jane Grey, because of Henry the Eighth's will. Also, Mary is by this point married to the Dauphin of France and France and England are such huge enemies at this point.

• 50:14Dan Snow?

  Right, Mary Queen of Scots is married to the...

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Yes, too many Marys. Everyone's called Mary. So Mary Queen of Scots is married. Possibly, had Mary Queen of Scots not been married to the Dauphin, it might have been a different situation. But Mary the First knows that if she puts in Mary Queen of Scots, who is a French queen now, it's just going to be unpopular. Also, Henry the Eighth's will is all powerful. And, you know, so many, so many, in so many royal histories... We see it, don't we, Dan, that the royal will is totally ignored. The royal person writes their will and then they totally ignore it. But I like it that Henry VIII's will, everyone sticks to it.

• 50:51Dan Snow?

  It's interesting.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  It makes me think that when I write a will, everyone's going to listen to it.

• 50:54Dan Snow?

  Hey, they will.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Well, not Henry VIII, obviously.

• 50:56Dan Snow?

  Trust me, they certainly will. So at the end of her life, on her deathbed, does she say that Elizabeth is her successor?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  There is no doubt that Elizabeth is going to come to the throne. She is closest to the throne. Henry VIII said she was going to take the throne. And of course, there are no legitimate male heirs. All the possible heirs are all female. And so Elizabeth is going to take the throne. And Mary has to admit on her deathbed that Elizabeth will take the throne. And she knows that by her half-sister taking the throne, that this will mean that all of her reforms, all of her efforts to bring back the Catholic faith in the country will be put to an end.

• 51:36Dan Snow?

  And actually, that's the ultimate refutation of the idea that she is bloody, because she goes to her grave knowing that everything she's fought for in her life will be destroyed by the coming of this Protestant half-sister of hers. And she could have had Elizabeth put to death. If she was, if she was really bloody, she could have gone, no, I'm, my Catholic faith is unbending on this. So she knows that everything will be undone, but she doesn't, can't bring herself to kill her sister.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  That's such a good point, because she does put Elizabeth in the Tower, because Elizabeth does get caught up in these rebellions. Whether or not she knew about Wyatt's Rebellion, she probably didn't necessarily knew what he was going to do. Whether or not she knew about the French Rebellion, which I don't think she did, but either way, she gets caught up in it. Elizabeth is sent to the Tower. Now, many, many kings in the same position would have executed her. Or perhaps had her fall down the stairs, or everyone dies in the Tower, don't they? I mean, not just the princes of the Tower. So many, I often, all, all the Welsh prisoners all end up dying. I mean, maybe they.

• 52:30Dan Snow?

  So many unfortunate deaths.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Maybe it's the bad air in, in, in the, in the area, but, but lots of people do die of the ta, in the Tower, bad conditions. But maybe, you know, the odd mysterious death. So Elizabeth, Mary could have executed Elizabeth. It would have been hugely unpopular, but as you say, she could have just ridden out the criticism and put a Catholic heir in place. And yet. She knows as she dies that what all she's tried for and sacrificed so much for is going to go. And what I hope she didn't know is that Philip of Spain, he's automatically saying, I'm Elizabeth. Um, yeah, uh, now, um, now my, my wife's, uh, you know, on the way out. Should we get married?

• 53:09Dan Snow?

  Amazing. The chutzpah of that.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Uh, absolutely. Cause he also, I don't know, he says, he says, oh, I'm really experienced. I know a lot about being, um, on the throne, so I'll help you.

• 53:18Dan Snow?

  Yeah. Well, luckily Elizabeth said no to that offer. And so Mary, everything Mary worked for reversed by her sister. Many, well, many things that she worked for reversed by her sister. And because her sister was Protestant and ruled for a long time, that Protestantism really enshrined in, in, it became so synonymous with Englishness. Which means that Mary was a bit of a whipping boy for the rest of, well, for hundreds of years, because that sort of English and then British identity was about being Protestant. Mary was seen as a dead end, a cul-de-sac. And, and, and people rejoiced in calling her Bloody Mary and saying how, you know, that, that was, I'm glad we didn't take that path.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Yes, she becomes the whipping boy, as you say. She becomes the scapegoat. She becomes the one blamed, really, for all the huge upheaval and the deaths of the Reformation. So the Reformation caused so many deaths, so many distresses, so much upheaval and horror and sadness and misery. And what that during Henry VIII's reign is forgotten. That during Edgewood VI's reign is forgotten, and also in Elizabeth's reign. But all of this misery and the execution, the death of the Reformation, it seemed to be compressed just into her reign. So she gets blamed for, it was almost like everything is pushed onto her.

• 54:30Dan Snow?

  Whereas Elizabeth was chopping heads off Catholics left and right.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Well, a few, quite a few did get their heads chopped off, indeed. And this is for, for Elizabeth, they were a threat to national security.

• 54:44Dan Snow?

  As one of our great colleagues and friends has written, Elizabeth the first, bloody best. Kate Williams, thank you very much for coming on this podcast. You're an absolute legend.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

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• 56:07Dan Snow?

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