The Baby Farm Killer: Amelia Dyer 1

When it comes to serial killers, few have been as prolific as Amelia Dyer. In 19th century England, Amelia ran a group home for infants called a baby farm. But instead of helping these children, she murdered them. Eventually, her scheme was revealed. But could the police stop Amelia before she murdered again? Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House Original. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @crimehouse for more true crime content.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:43Vanessa Richardson?

  We've all struggled, done something we were not entirely proud of, or uttered the phrase, desperate times call for desperate measures. Generally, we assume that when faced with terrible choices, we'll make the moral one. We won't lie, we won't steal, we won't kill. We're above that. But when there aren't any good choices available to us, there's no telling what happens in our minds. We might make a bad decision, then a second, then a third, until the decisions we're making have turned us into something unrecognizable.

• 1:35Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is fascinating. It controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes, the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, how could someone do such a thing? Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original. Every Monday, we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and violent offenders. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible.

• 2:16Vanessa Richardson?

  Please support us by rating, reviewing, and following Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts. And to enhance your Mind of a Serial Killer listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad-free, and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two-part series, you'll get access to both at once, plus exciting bonus content. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 2:43Tristin Engels?

  And I am Dr. Tristin Engels. As Vanessa takes you through our subject's stories, I'll be helping her dive into these killer's minds as we try to understand how someone could do such horrible things.

• 2:54Vanessa Richardson?

  Before we get into the story, you should know it contains descriptions of child murder and suicidal ideation. Listener discretion is advised. This is the first of two episodes about one of the most infamous serial killers you've probably never heard of: Amelia Dyer. Amelia was a late-19th-century baby farmer, which meant she posed as a nurse to adopt or care for babies in exchange for money, but ended up murdering hundreds of infants instead. In today's episode, we'll explore Amelia Dyer's early life and business as a murderous baby farmer.

• 3:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Next time, we'll look at the rest of Amelia's crimes, her ultimate downfall, and as always, ask the question: What makes a serial killer?

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• 4:36Vanessa Richardson?

  Amelia Dyer came of age in a comfortable home in Victorian England. She was born outside the city of Bristol in 1837 as Amelia Hobbley, the youngest child in a well-to-do family. Her father, Samuel, was a shoemaker, which was an especially respectable trade at the time. He even made enough money to send his six children to school, which was a rare feat in that time period. In the Victorian era, most children, and especially girls, weren't adequately schooled. But when Amelia was around 11 years old, tragedy struck when her mother, Sarah, contracted typhus fever. This disease can affect the brain,

• 5:19Vanessa Richardson?

  and it caused Sarah's behavior to become erratic. Her speech became dysfunctional, and she suffered from terrible delusions, hallucinations, and manic episodes. To help her get better, Samuel placed Sarah in the care of a respected doctor at the local asylum. And for a while, Amelia's mother got better, and she was able to come home. But this was a mirage. Sarah's underlying disease was still untreated, and she soon became almost entirely vacant and unresponsive. She was dead before Amelia's 12th birthday.

• 5:57Tristin Engels?

  Losing a parent at a young age can be very traumatic, and it increases the risk that a child will experience mental health, behavioral, and/or academic deficits. However, witnessing a parent's decline in this way can be even more traumatic to a different degree. Seeing a mental status change like Amelia did when you're too young to truly understand it can have really significant impacts.

• 6:26Tristin Engels?

  The effects of parental loss on a child can vary by age. A child who's around the age of two, for example, will likely experience more anxiety-related symptoms because they haven't developed an understanding of something called object permanence. Their parent isn't just gone, they're not coming back. That's what object permanence means. But a child who's 12, like Amelia, for example, understands that this death is irreversible. And at that age, a lot is happening in that stage of psychosocial development. They're trying to learn who they are and discover their identity, and a parent helps to shape that identity. So without that, they're missing a key component.

• 7:10Tristin Engels?

  So they're more likely to experience anger and rebellion as a trauma response.

• 7:16Vanessa Richardson?

  And this wasn't even the first death in Amelia's family that she had to witness. Her older sister had died when Amelia was only four years old, and a baby sister passed away when Amelia was eight. Sadly, this was normal during this time period. In fact, infant mortality has been recorded to be as high as 16% of infants in some parts of Victorian England. It wasn't uncommon for children to experience the death of a sibling, or even the death of a parent. And although it must have been absolutely devastating to experience, she had to keep moving forward. Following Sarah's death, Amelia's older siblings took on the bulk of the household

• 7:57Vanessa Richardson?

  work and income-earning labor, allowing Amelia to continue in school. She was smart and had an aptitude for literature and poetry. Stories and words likely provided comfort from painful memories of her mother. And by 14, Amelia seemed to have adjusted to society reasonably well. She moved out of her father's house and lived with her aunt in Bristol. There, she worked as an apprentice for a corset maker. It wasn't making her much money, but at least she had her health, something the rest of her family wasn't blessed with.

• 8:32Vanessa Richardson?

  A day before her 22nd birthday, Amelia's father died of bronchitis. But there's no indication that she was affected beyond the typical grief that comes with losing a parent. By now, she may have been used to all the death. Amelia seemed to continue with life as usual, and that meant finding a husband. She moved out of her aunt's house and rented a room in a lodging home, which was basically a cheap, short-term apartment. While Amelia was living there, she met her first husband, George Thomas. George was a widower and worked as a master carver and gilder. He was also much older than Amelia, 34 years older, in fact.

• 9:15Vanessa Richardson?

  And even in a time where large age gaps were common, it was abnormal enough that they had to lie about it to get married.

• 9:22Tristin Engels?

  There's a lot that can be inferred from this. Amelia was certainly of age, of consent, but she was also vulnerable in those days. Without a father and without a husband, she was an easy target for predatory men. It certainly makes you wonder about the motives of George or the relationship between them.

• 9:41Vanessa Richardson?

  And little is known about what happened behind closed doors in their relationship, like whether their marriage was a loving one or something else. But we do know that during that time, Amelia took up work as a nurse. Then shortly after, she became a mother. In 1864, Amelia gave birth to a baby girl named Ellen. But her job as a nurse was relentless. We're talking 16-hour shifts at all hours of the day. It wasn't exactly a profession conducive to motherhood, and George's income wasn't enough to support the family on its own, which is a lot of pressure on a new mother.

• 10:20Tristin Engels?

  There's a lot to unpack here, Vanessa.

• 10:22Vanessa Richardson?

  Yes.

• 10:23Tristin Engels?

  It seems like Amelia could have been under a lot of pressure alone just to get married. And that would explain why she married a widower, decades older than she was. And in given that time period, that is what women were taught to aspire to do. And now there's financial pressure to return to work. And new moms not only need time to bond with their child and heal from childbirth, but it's also an important period for them to monitor, at least now, any postpartum blues or postpartum depression. After giving birth, there's a significant decrease in estrogen and progesterone, which contribute to feelings of sadness. In addition to that, there's an increase in cortisol from childbirth, which we know

• 11:08Tristin Engels?

  as the stress hormone. And so, given Amelia's exposure to so much grief and loss, and so early in her life, I would say that she's a greater risk of developing postpartum depression, and a greater risk of a heightened anxiety about her baby's health. So, it's hard enough for new mothers to feel comfortable going back to work as it is, but she's returning to work as a nurse, working unpredictable hours. And we now know that jobs in healthcare are very high stress, and jobs with inconsistent hours, like graveyard shifts, can have significant impacts on someone's physical and emotional health. And add being a new mother to that.

• 11:49Vanessa Richardson?

  True, and that's a lot even today, but imagine back in 1800 Victorian England.

• 11:54Tristin Engels?

  Yep.

• 11:54Vanessa Richardson?

  So, we know Amelia was going through a substantial physical transformation. And even if her hormones were steady, and even if her brain chemicals were sound, she would have likely been looking for different work, something she could balance with a baby, which is precisely what happened. A chance meeting with a midwife named Ellen Dame during those early years of motherhood would change her life forever, and set the stage for Amelia's later crimes. As a midwife, Ellen Dame's job was to help deliver babies, but she had a very particular clientele. Ellen was known for working with women who, for one reason or another, needed absolute

• 12:36Vanessa Richardson?

  secrecy with their pregnancies and births. Either they'd had an affair, or they couldn't take care of the child, or, in some cases, they'd been raped. And there weren't many options for unmarried pregnant women in Victorian England. Abortions were illegal and considered dangerous. And if you did keep the baby, it was nearly impossible to find decent work because you were considered to be immoral. And sending the baby to an orphanage was difficult, too, because they were extremely crowded and didn't always take babies from unwed mothers. To make matters even worse, there was a law called the Poor Law Amendment Act, which

• 13:17Vanessa Richardson?

  made it so fathers of illegitimate children didn't have to support their children or the mothers. But there was help available to them if they were willing to look for it. People like Ellen Dame would take these women in when they were too far along to be disguised. They stayed with her for some time, up to six months, and they paid a good amount of money for Ellen's services as a midwife. But there was another income stream that followed the birth: baby farming. So baby farming worked like this. For a small weekly fee or a larger one-time payment, Ellen took in babies whose mothers

• 13:57Vanessa Richardson?

  could not care for them, sort of like a for-profit orphanage or, in theory, an around-the-clock daycare. It was quite lucrative and could be done from the comfort of your own home while you raised your own children. It was the kind of work that would have been appealing to someone like Amelia Dyer. The problem was that some women, like Ellen Dame, had questionable ways to increase their profits. They did so by reducing costs like food and medicine. The more babies you took in and the less you spent on them, the more money you made. Basically, neglect equaled profit.

• 14:37Vanessa Richardson?

  And if a baby happened to die, as long as the baby farmer got payment up front, that was the most profitable kind of client.

• 14:45Tristin Engels?

  Well, initially, it sounds like Ellen Dame was a feminist, wanting to help women in need. And I imagine that any woman who went to her thought that was her motive as well. But really, she's anything but a feminist. This is someone who found a way. To capitalize off of the exploitation of vulnerable women and children, as if women weren't already oppressed enough in those days. Someone like Ellen likely justified what she was doing by convincing herself and anyone who helped her that these were unwanted babies and their mothers were immoral stains on society. Therefore, neither had any value outside of making her money, which allowed her to justify what she was doing.

• 15:29Tristin Engels?

  Her lack of empathy toward her clientele sounds like a lot of projected anger and resentment. It makes me wonder if Ellen herself ever married or had any children of her own. And if not, she may have looked down upon women who were unmarried and projected that anger onto them, just like she was angry with herself.

• 15:53Vanessa Richardson?

  So regardless of the morals, quote unquote, surrounding baby farming, Amelia was willing to do whatever it took to support her family. George died in October 1869, leaving Amelia desperate for money. So she copied Ellen's corner cutting business model and started her own baby farming operation. But before the business could really get going, Amelia hit pause on it. By 1871, she'd taken a break from baby farming and was working as a nurse in an asylum. She even sent out her daughter, then six years old, to a different baby farmer so she could take the job.

• 16:33Tristin Engels?

  It's interesting that she diverted from baby farming to working at an asylum, which is where her mother once received treatment. Maybe it was desperation.

• 16:43Vanessa Richardson?

  Maybe Amelia felt like she needed more stable work at the time, or maybe she just felt like getting into baby farming was too risky. The authorities had started monitoring the number of deaths under Ellen Dame's care, and as a result, she fled the country. Another baby farming associate of theirs was hanged for murder.

• 17:04Vanessa Richardson?

  But despite these dangers, Amelia couldn't help herself. Or she decided the reward was worth the risk. In 1872, 35-year-old Amelia married Thomas Dyer and became Amelia Dyer. She had two more children, and her first daughter Ellen returned to the family. After three or four years, Amelia had a husband and three children to feed. So she got back into midwifery and her baby-farming business. Then she added another service. Her younger daughter Polly later recalled hearing the noises that came with childbirth. But she wasn't all that familiar with the cries of newborn babies.

• 17:46Vanessa Richardson?

  Because when childbirth ended, Amelia often emerged from the room with a dead infant, declaring it a stillbirth. But that wasn't really what happened. The newborn had been murdered. And it was Amelia's doing.

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• 19:25Speaker 01

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• 20:34Vanessa Richardson?

  It's important to note that in the 1870s, Amelia Dyer was first and foremost running a business dictated by the desires of her clients. Some mothers dropped infants at a baby farm intending to return once they had enough money to care for them, though many weren't interested in coming back. Amelia's clients who didn't want their babies had two options. The first was they could pay Amelia to take out an ad in the newspaper putting the child up for adoption, or they could arrange for a so-called stillbirth. Amelia had a way to smother the baby before it was entirely out of the birth canal.

• 21:14Vanessa Richardson?

  That way, the newborn wouldn't discolor and show signs of asphyxiation, and the death would be registered as a stillbirth, something neither the midwife nor the mother would be at fault for. It allowed the mother to save some money and for Amelia to make a lot of it.

• 21:32Tristin Engels?

  I think we need to make a very clear Distinction here. This is murder. Even if the mother wanted to relinquish all rights to her child, what Amelia is doing is murder. And the act of killing another with intention or premeditation is the legal definition of murder. And it became illegal in England since the Murder Act of 1751. She knows what she's doing is illegal, but she somehow is able to rationalize this. She is somehow able to convince herself she's doing a good thing. And it seems like it's a combination of things that allow her to remain disconnected from this callousness.

• 22:12Tristin Engels?

  One, she's far too comfortable with death, given her history and how much she's been around it and been exposed to it. Two, she's desperate for her own family and their financial needs. Or some form of psychopathy. And maybe it's a little bit of all three.

• 22:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Does that normalize death in a way?

• 22:31Tristin Engels?

  I think it desensitizes her. And it's not just the amount of exposure she's had. It's also the time. The infant mortality rate was 16%. And that's extremely high. The longevity of human life is a lot shorter than it is today. So death is a regular experience, I think, in those days.

• 22:55Vanessa Richardson?

  So at this point in Amelia Dyer's life, we know, we see she is a bona fide killer. And we do know that her physical health was suffering also during this period. She had frequent toothaches from past pregnancies and took a small dose of opium to soothe them. And maybe that made Amelia unfit to take care of children. Because even when the babies she cared for survived childbirth, they still face severe health risks. In 1879, about 10 years after now 42-year-old Amelia started her baby farming business, she took in a baby named Alfred. Shortly after he was born, Alfred suffered from diarrhea. Amelia's biological children did too. It wasn't uncommon during this time period.

• 23:40Vanessa Richardson?

  So Amelia did what she likely did for her own children. She contacted a doctor and gave Alfred medicine.

• 23:48Vanessa Richardson?

  But it didn't matter. Alfred didn't survive his sickness, and neither did one of her own children. Later, the doctor testified that the illness was likely the result of poorly maintained drains at the dyer's house. Basically, it was from the spread of bacteria, a natural cause, and there was no evidence of criminal neglect. But then, there was another baby in Amelia's care named May Walters. By the time May was two months old, she was too small for her size, nearly emaciated, and had rashes and sores all over her body. And Amelia needed more room in her household.

• 24:28Vanessa Richardson?

  She'd promised the space to a pregnant woman from Dublin, and that meant May needed to go. She contacted a friend named Mrs. Williams and farmed out not just May, but another newborn too, an infant named Bessie. Amelia told Mrs. Williams to feed the children a mixture of corn flour, bread, and condensed milk, a kind of rudimentary formula. She insisted this was her process, and she'd be back for the children soon. But when Amelia went to collect May from Mrs. Williams, the little girl was in even worse shape. She'd refused the food and was more emaciated than ever. The homemade formula recipe had been questionable, to say the least.

• 25:13Vanessa Richardson?

  Amelia called a doctor to her home to help little May, but two days later, May died. The doctor declared the cause of death as convulsions and intestinal disorder. He'd found a great deal of that formula in her stomach. This discovery itself didn't set off alarm bells with the authorities. What did was the way Amelia chose to register the death, giving the name Annie May Walters Dyer, even though May wasn't Amelia's biological child. Even worse, an investigator figured out the child was actually named Dorcas Walters, born to a domestic servant from London. After Annie died, the doctor alerted a local coroner. The coroner...

• 25:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Coroner then alerted the authorities. They discovered that at least two other children in Amelia's care had died around the same time and from similar causes. One of those children was Bessie, the other baby under Mrs. Williams' care, and an eight-month-old girl named Evelyn Townsend, who'd been sent out elsewhere. So in August 1879, the coroner launched an investigation into Amelia Dyer. In response, Amelia swallowed two large doses of opium, possibly in an attempt to take her own life.

• 26:33Tristin Engels?

  It's very interesting that she created this attachment with little Annie May and listing her last name on there, but was able to remain detached from all of the other infants in her care. And it's also interesting that she actually called a doctor into her home to help Annie, but played doctor with all of the other children, including her own.

• 27:00Vanessa Richardson?

  Uh huh.

• 27:01Tristin Engels?

  There's a very big contrast here. And I'd really like to understand a little bit more about what it was with Annie May Walters Dyer, previously known as Dorcas Walters, and why there's that attachment. But this also shows that I think Amelia has been suffering from some addiction to opium for a length of time. This isn't the first time, I think, it's been brought up.

• 27:28Vanessa Richardson?

  Uh huh.

• 27:29Tristin Engels?

  This swallowing of two large doses does sound like an impulsive attempt to take her own life. She realized that she was under investigation. She saw this happen with her mentor, Ellen. And I think she realized that there might be very little she could do about this.

• 27:47Vanessa Richardson?

  Clearly, she's got some sort of guilt going on.

• 27:50Tristin Engels?

  Yeah. It's very, a large contrast to how she's been acting with her business and how premeditated it's been and how callous and how absolutely just egregious she has been up until this point.

• 28:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, regardless of her intentions, Amelia was revived by doctors after her suicide attempt, and almost immediately after she was healthy, she was put on trial for those infants' deaths. But this wasn't a black and white case, because again, plenty of infants died in Victorian England. Sanitation was poor, malnutrition was widespread. It was hard to determine whether the deaths could be explained by natural causes, or if there was a component of neglect, or if you could even call it murder. Amelia's daughter's testimony blurred the lines further. According to Amelia's daughter Ellen, who was then 16, Amelia gave the infants five

• 28:46Vanessa Richardson?

  drops of a substance called Godfrey's Cordial every night. This was a medicine containing opium, and was the same drug Amelia took in her possible suicide attempt. But it was also a substance commonly given to infants of the era. It's kind of like today's version of giving a sick baby Tylenol to help them sleep, which sounds crazy to say, but it's the truth. So again, you could call Amelia's behavior pathological, but it was really typical of the times. But what wasn't typical was Amelia's rate of death. According to her daughter, nine children had died in their house in the past year alone. The coroner did make the case that Amelia was overwhelmed.

• 29:30Vanessa Richardson?

  She'd taken in too many children, and this caused her to neglect them, leaving Amelia partially at fault. He said he had "no moral doubt that these children were hurried to their grave by improper food and drugging." He also condemned the practice of baby farming. But he couldn't provide direct evidence that Amelia purposefully caused any of the children's deaths. There was no evidence of opioids given beyond a standard amount, not near enough to be fatal, nor was there evidence that Amelia actively wanted the children to die. After all, she had called doctors when their illnesses got worse.

• 30:13Vanessa Richardson?

  Her biggest offense seemed to be the false name on May Walter's death certificate, the one that had gotten her in trouble in the first place. In the end, Amelia was found not guilty of manslaughter. The jury declared the deaths death by natural causes. She was found guilty only of neglect and violating the Infant Life Protection Act. This act stated that any person taking in children under the age of 12 months and for more than 24 hours was required to register with the police. As punishment, she was sentenced to six months in prison as, quote, "a warning to others."

• 30:55Tristin Engels?

  She's a very interesting case. I have a lot of questions about her. Although there's obvious evidence that there's been premeditated murder occurring with infants whose mothers did not want them to survive and that she hid that. So she knew, there's an element of knowing that there's criminal responsibility here. She knew that she would be criminally liable if it was found out that she did this. So she did it in a way where it could be hard to determine, as we talked about. But yet, she did care for her children. She did care for some of the other children. So there's an element of her that she really did care.

• 31:36Vanessa Richardson?

  That's what struck me. It's almost like Jekyll and Hyde. She clearly has a connection to her own children and having become a mother and gone through that process. And it just baffles me.

• 31:47Tristin Engels?

  I think a lot of this has to do with just a cluster of things. Like we've always talked about, the nature versus nurture aspect. There are some individuals who are born with biologically based brains or brains that have structural abnormalities that lead to psychopathy. And there are some that who are created. And I think that Amelia sounds like somebody who is more created to become known as a serial killer. I think she's a bit of an anomaly in a way, though, because it doesn't seem like her lack of empathy or her remorse even is uniform. She still had that for her own children. She still had that for Annie, little baby Annie. She very clearly...

• 32:32Tristin Engels?

  Had a bond with Annie and I'd really like to know more about where that came from. If she was here, I'd be asking how old she was. I want to know about the mother of Annie. Did she connect with the mother? Did she identify with the mother? Are they of the same race? You know, I want to know a lot of things. I want to see where that came from to understand her better.

• 32:52Vanessa Richardson?

  When it comes to punishments, so her punishment was, you know, a warning to others. Does that actually stop people from committing those crimes?

• 33:00Tristin Engels?

  It depends. I mean, if we're talking about punishment working on individuals who are have psychopathy or are sociopaths, then no consequences. If consequences were a deterrent for individuals with that type of pathology, then we wouldn't have that pathology at all. Right? So, no, I don't think so. But I do think for those who genuinely wanted to open up a business where they helped unwed mothers or children without homes and create an orphanage and actually do it in a very pro-social way. So I think it sends that message to those people. But I think for people who have that sort of pathology, consequences have never been a deterrent.

• 33:44Vanessa Richardson?

  So after being released from prison, Amelia did take a break from baby farming, but it didn't last for long. Despite improper baby farming being prosecuted more frequently in Victorian courts, Amelia returned to the practice. It would seem as if her prison stint only taught her one thing. She needed to get better at hiding from the law.

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• 37:27Vanessa Richardson?

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• 37:44Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1879, 42-year-old Amelia Dyer spent six months in prison doing hard labor for the crime of neglect. Prisons were challenging places in Victorian England. Tiny windows in the cells, no talking amongst inmates, a hard wooden bench for a bed, and frequent trips to solitary confinement. But when Amelia emerged in February of 1880, she may have had some remorse for her wrongdoings because for a few years, she turned to the work she'd done when she first left her childhood home so many years ago, corset making.

• 38:24Tristin Engels?

  What happens to people who have been incarcerated for a length of time, whether it's six months to several years to decades, is once they're released, the world has changed quite a bit. You wouldn't, you would be surprised. But also, they're, they're getting released with absolutely nothing. And you've likely lost everything that you left behind, your home, your belongings, because you're not there to take care of them. You're not there to continue paying your rent or your mortgage, whatever it might be. So you're starting over. And so one of the biggest indicators for recidivism is not being able to meet your basic needs. So Amelia comes out of prison. Having spent six months there and I'm very curious what that must have been like for her in the Victorian era because nowadays,

• 39:08Tristin Engels?

  women who go to prison who have harmed children, not very well received by the other populations. So we're curious about that, but she's leaving prison with absolutely nothing and having to start over. She is, where's her family? She doesn't have parents. She doesn't have her mom. She doesn't have her dad. So I don't know. We haven't heard much about her husband throughout all of this. And she has starting over with nothing. So she needs to meet her basic needs for herself, which is shelter and food. And she also has children that she has to care for. So initially she's going for a more pro-social employment, which is corset making. But she left corset making before for a reason. It didn't make enough money for her.

• 39:48Tristin Engels?

  So now she's trying to not only maintain, but get back to where she was, let alone ahead. It's probably harder for her. So she's, it makes sense to me why she would divert back to her old ways. That's why we see recidivism occur so often in society.

• 40:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Now, when this happens in general, when people are released into the public again, are they aware that what they did was wrong? Do they normally or tend to learn from this time incarcerated?

• 40:14Tristin Engels?

  It depends on the individual. It's definitely a case by case basis.

• 40:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Tristin Engels?

  I wish I could say it was uniform. It's not. And that's why recidivism is such a big factor and that, and that plays into it for a majority of the cases, not all, certainly not all. I've definitely seen a lot of successful experiences where doing their time and coming out has really changed them, helped them understand their impact, the ripple effect of their crime and has inspired them to really do better for themselves because they don't want to experience that ever again. On the other side of that, I've seen far more that was not really a deterrent to them at all.

• 40:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Just in case someone out there is like, what is recidivism?

• 40:53Tristin Engels?

  Oh, sure. The, that's the rate of reoffending.

• 40:57Vanessa Richardson?

  For Amelia, whatever remorse and self-control she might have had didn't last long. By 1884, 47-year-old Amelia and her family were poor again. Her work as a corset maker wasn't exactly paying the bills. Amelia took up baby farming again, determined to avoid scrutiny and make even more money.

• 41:18Tristin Engels?

  And this is the exact example I was mentioning, right?

• 41:22Vanessa Richardson?

  She went right back.

• 41:23Tristin Engels?

  She's not able to make enough money. Her family was poor again, and any pro-social way in which she could go about that was not effective or quick enough for her.

• 41:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Yeah, and she moved her family to a new town and began attracting wealthier clientele, sometimes charging up to 50 pounds, which was a huge increase from what she charged back in Bristol. Not all of her clients wanted to part with their children forever. Amelia still took in babies whose mothers had hoped to return for them. But as far as we know, throughout the 1880s, only two babies made it more than a few days in the dyer home, though it's not clear if they returned to their mothers or if they died. To this day, we don't know what happened to them. Whatever happened, nobody caught wind of it. The dyers moved a few times, and Amelia sometimes used aliases to avoid detection.

• 42:20Vanessa Richardson?

  So for nearly 10 years, her family lived in relative peace. Mothers came in, they paid. Babies were born, but were gotten rid of quicker than they could eat Amelia's formula. When they did die, Amelia often called in a funeral undertaker, who assumed the infant's causes of death were natural. And so Amelia continued in her practice with zero scrutiny or regulation.

• 42:47Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks to her business, Amelia's family became quite well off. They rented a sizable home and had paid off all of their debts. Finally, they'd moved into the middle class with all of its comforts.

• 43:01Tristin Engels?

  You know, when, when people obtain more money, they feel that they obtain more power. And I think now it's emboldened Amelia even more to continue with this business. One, because it's successful. Two, she's learned how to be more antisocial with it in a very cunning sort of way. She knows if she goes into this business, these children were already unwanted. The mothers are not going to report them. Who's going to report her? It's very much of a anatomy of a setup. I got info on you, you've got info on me. If you tell, I tell. And so it's a balance in the playing field and it allows her to continue doing this.

• 43:43Tristin Engels?

  And it gives her a sense of not just control, but confidence in what she's doing, safety, invincibility. And now she is in the middle class. She's paid off all her debts. She has a sizable home that she's rented and she might have some savings where if necessary, she could start paying people off. For example, the funeral undertaker, if they start asking more questions, well, hey, I can pay you to do this and keep quiet.

• 44:12Vanessa Richardson?

  In the beginning, it felt like it was a survival thing.

• 44:15Tristin Engels?

  Right.

• 44:15Vanessa Richardson?

  She just did it to survive, purely survival. And now it feels like...

• 44:18Tristin Engels?

  And desperation.

• 44:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Yeah. Now it's just the greed. It's more, it feels more...

• 44:22Tristin Engels?

  Exactly. It's, it's an instant gratification. Of course, that making won't get her there as quickly as she wants to get there.

• 44:28Vanessa Richardson?

  Mm-hmm. So however Amelia felt about baby farming, her business hit a snag in 1890 when she was 53. It began with a governess, which was like a private teacher slash nanny. She wrote to Amelia saying she had a problem she wanted to take care of. The father came from a wealthy respectable family. Some sources say he was the oldest son of her boss. They'd had an affair and now she needed to get rid of the evidence. This was, of course, Amelia's specialty. Amelia agreed to take care of the governess during labor and delivery, and per the terms, if the baby survived labor, Amelia would adopt it.

• 45:11Vanessa Richardson?

  The whole thing would cost the governess fifteen pounds, with the final installment due two months after delivery. This was a transaction Amelia had likely done hundreds of times over the course of multiple decades. It was also a pretty sizable amount of money, maybe close to a year's salary for the average worker. And the governess had no reason to turn Amelia in. The child's father had been shipped off to mainland Europe after the affair. The governess was without a job, and if she didn't get rid of the baby, she'd be an unwed mother with very few prospects. So it was kind of like what you were saying.

• 45:48Tristin Engels?

  Mm-hmm. She's starting to really meet the criteria of somebody with antisocial personality disorder. She really is. This lack of remorse, the lack of empathy, the lack of conforming to societal rules and norms, and becoming more versatile in her criminality, knowing who to target, knowing who she can exploit if necessary. Just she's very, she's becoming much more versatile, which is scary.

• 46:13Vanessa Richardson?

  And Amelia must have thought that this particular instance was a no-brainer for her.

• 46:18Tristin Engels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:19Vanessa Richardson?

  So Amelia took the governess in during the spring of 1890. The governess was likely still in her first trimester. She wasn't showing yet. Over the next few months, Amelia was as charming and caring as a nurse and midwife could be. Her daughter Polly and son William were teenagers in the house, putting on a good front for the governess, showing her that Amelia was perfectly capable of raising competent humans from birth.

• 46:45Tristin Engels?

  So she's exploiting her own children now. She's now groomed her children and brought them into her own criminal enterprise, and using them as sort of pawns to show everyone that, look, we have a very warm, nurturing home. I've raised two great children. You're safe here.

• 47:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Sometime in the late fall of 1890, the governess went into labor. Amelia had done this many times, and though there was no arrangement to conjure a stillbirth, the thought must have crossed Amelia's mind as the baby crowned. What if she could just kill it right there, right now? But she didn't. The governess gave birth to a baby with a distinctive birthmark on its hip. Then, once she was well enough, she said goodbye, leaving Amelia with the baby. Now, everything we know about Amelia's following actions is speculation based on our research. But from what we know about Amelia so far, it's likely she didn't care about the baby the second it left the womb.

• 47:48Vanessa Richardson?

  She likely assumed the governess didn't either. Since she'd asked for it to be adopted, even if the governess returned with the final payment, there was no way she would care about the child's well-being. So, for Amelia, things were likely business as usual. The newborn got a steady concoction of homemade formula and Godfrey's cordial for sleep. This combination of malnutrition and opium likely caused its death. However, two months later, though, the governess actually returned and asked to see her baby.

• 48:35Vanessa Richardson?

  When the governess showed up and asked for her baby, Amelia must have been nervous, but she'd likely been through this before. She just had to bring out a healthy baby and the governess would be satisfied. So with the governess waiting anxiously at the door, Amelia went into the house and snagged the first baby she could find.

• 48:56Tristin Engels?

  So Amelia, at this point, has been very much of a chameleon. She's been trying to fit in and put on facades to everybody that that comes to her for, quote, "business." And so in this panic, it's, "Okay, I need to maintain this facade." And in the moment, I'm panicking to make that happen. I don't think she's panicked in that she thinks she's been caught. I think if anything, she might have been thrown for a loop because, to this date, no one's probably come back to see their baby. It's always been a done deal for them. So this is a turn of events for Amelia that her complacency and her arrogance sort of faulted her.

• 49:33Vanessa Richardson?

  And whatever Amelia was feeling at that moment, the governess had a feeling something was off. She told Amelia the baby she'd brought out wasn't hers. Nerves might have sunk into Amelia at this point, but she tried to salvage the situation. Amelia told the governess she was mistaken. Babies change so much in their first months of life. Like you said, she's trying to outsmart the governess. They don't look exactly like they did just at birth. It was her baby, it had just changed. So the governess showed Amelia the baby's hips. There was no birthmark, and those don't change. Amelia asked for a tiny bit of the final payment and told the governess to come back in a couple of weeks.

• 50:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Then she would have the baby and could show her it was alive and well. The governess refused to pay, but agreed to come back. Amelia might have thought she was in the clear, that there was no way the governess would return. But during that intermediate period, the governess reunited with the baby's father, who had gained permission to marry her and wanted to be a father to his child. So the next time the governess knocked on Amelia's door, Amelia opened it to find not just the mom, but both parents. And they wanted their baby.

• 50:55Vanessa Richardson?

  Terrified, Amelia slammed the door, saying nothing to the couple, and they eventually went away. But she had no doubt the governess and father would be going to the police, and that Amelia would have to explain what happened to the child. She had to do something. She didn't want to go back to prison. She certainly didn't want to be hanged. In March of 1891, the police knocked on Amelia's door. But there was no baby. And worse, Amelia Dyer had disappeared.

• 51:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Monday as we finish the story of Amelia Dyer.

• 51:48Tristin Engels?

  Mind of a Serial Killer is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media at Crime House on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 52:13Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Mind of a Serial Killer ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Monday. Mind of a Serial Killer, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios, is executive produced by Max Cutler. This episode of Mind of a Serial Killer was produced and directed by Ron Shapiro, written by Stacy Nemec, edited by Alex Benadon, fact-checked by Claire Cronin, and included production assistance from Paul Lebaskind, Sarah Carroll, and Kristin Acevedo.

• 52:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Mind of a Serial Killer is hosted by Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristin Engels.

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• 53:38Speaker 01

  Did you know a volcano once blocked out the sun and accidentally gave us Frankenstein? Or that the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean, may never have actually killed anyone? Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing and has been my whole life. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take three of the wildest true things ever recorded and tell you the whole story behind them. The facts that sound made up, the stories that got buried, the moments that changed everything. Carter brings the history. Connor brings the facts, the tangents, and the occasional British accent. Pip, pip.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  The wildest stuff is real. And the real stuff is wilder than you think. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 54:39Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.