Lessons from Bozoma Saint John — From Spike Lee to Uber, From Ghana to Silicon Valley

Bozoma Saint John (@badassboz https://twitter.com/badassboz) is the Chief Brand Officer at Uber. Until June 2017, she was a marketing executive at Apple Music after joining the company in its acquisition of Beats Music. In 2016, Billboard named her Female Executive of the Year https://www.billboard.com/articles/events/women-in-music/7597402/bozoma-saint-john-executive-of-the-year, she appeared on Fortune's 40 under 40 http://fortune.com/40-under-40/2016/bozoma-saint-john-14/, and Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People https://www.fastcompany.com/person/bozoma-saint-john. Bozoma was featured in Tribe of Mentors https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Mentors-Short-Advice-World/dp/1328994961, but this conversation covers topics that go far beyond what was covered in the book. Enjoy! This podcast is brought to you by Peloton https://www.onepeloton.com/, which has become a staple of my daily routine. I picked up this bike after seeing the success of my friend Kevin Rose, and I've been enjoying it more than I ever imagined. Peloton is an indoor cycling bike that brings live studio classes right to your home. No worrying about fitting classes into your busy schedule or making it to a studio with a crazy commute. New classes are added every day, and this includes options led by elite NYC instructors in your own living room. You can even live stream studio classes taught by the world's best instructors, or find your favorite class on demand. Peloton https://www.onepeloton.com/ is offering listeners to this show a special offer. Visit onepeloton.com https://www.onepeloton.com/ and enter the code "TIM" at checkout to receive $100 off accessories with your Peloton bike purchase. This is a great way to get in your workouts or an incredible gift. Again, that's onepeloton.com https://www.onepeloton.com/ and enter the code TIM. This podcast is also brought to you by Helix Sleep https://helixsleep.com/tim. I recently moved into a new home and needed new beds, and I purchased mattresses from Helix Sleep. It offers mattresses personalized to your preferences and sleeping style — without costing thousands of dollars. Visit Helixsleep.com/TIM https://helixsleep.com/tim and take the simple 2-3 minute sleep quiz to get started, and Helix Sleep will build a mattress you'll love. Its customer service makes all the difference. The mattress arrives within a week, and the shipping is completely free. You can try the mattress for 100 nights, and if you're not happy, the company will pick it up and offer a full refund. To personalize your sleep experience, visit Helixsleep.com/TIM https://helixsleep.com/tim and you'll receive $50 off your custom mattress. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would seem an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first

• 1:03Tim Ferriss?

  subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drink A G one, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out. Diggedy diggedy diggedy. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, AKA perhaps Tribe of Mentors. I have two podcasts and this applies to both. My guest today, we're going to explore her lessons, tribulations, obstacles overcome, and so much more. How to survive on tiny roles in

• 1:45Tim Ferriss?

  New York City while sleeping on couches. Bozma St. John. She is the Chief Brand Officer at Uber and until June 2017, she was a marketing executive at Apple Music after joining the company through its acquisition of Beats Music, where she was the head of global marketing. There's so much to this story. In 2016, Billboard named her Executive of the Year and Fortune included her in their 40 under 40 list. Fast Company has also included. Bozoma on its list of the 100 most creative people. There's so many details that we can dig into. You can say hi to her, Bozoma St. John, B-O-Z-O-M-A, on Twitter and Instagram, @BadassBoz, B-O-Z. And I think I'll just keep it at that. I took so many notes in this conversation.

• 2:29Tim Ferriss?

  There's so many things that I am going to use, and I hope the same for you. So without further ado, please enjoy my wide-ranging conversation with Bozoma St. John.

• 2:41Tim Ferriss?

  Boz, welcome to the show.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 2:45Tim Ferriss?

  You are perhaps, in the last six months, the most requested podcast guest by all of my friends on the internet. And I'm so glad that we finally were able to find a time to jump on the phone and have a conversation. So thank you for making the time.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  Yes, well, thank you for having me. I don't know if I should be scared about being, you know, the most requested, or flattered, or nervous. I don't know how to react to that.

• 3:14Tim Ferriss?

  I think flattered is fine. I don't know if, I wouldn't say flattered is a necessity, but you certainly don't have to be scared. And plus, as far as I can tell, you don't really get very afraid of things. And we might come back to that. So I would say we-

• 3:30Speaker 03

  We should come back to that.

• 3:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, we'll definitely come back to that. And I thought that in typical Tim sort of memento nonlinear fashion, we'd actually just start with something that is, as a segue from being the most requested, on Twitter. So this is your pinned tweet. And I wanted to hear the background on this. So it's a quote from Nietzsche. It's, "You must be ready to burn yourself in your own flame. How could you rise anew if you have not first become ashes?" Why is that your pinned tweet? And what does it mean to you?

• 4:05Speaker 03

  You know, I have, I have always felt very much aligned to the phoenix, you know, the thought of rising from ash, that things seem to always burn, you know, burn really, really bright, like in some sort of like destructive, you know, fatalistic, extreme fashion for me. It has always been that way, you know, when I was five, my dad was in politics in Ghana, which is where my family lived. And there was a coup d'etat, which meant that the government was overthrown by the military. And my dad, along with all of his colleagues, were thrown into political detention.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  You know, my mom had to escape with me, my two younger sisters, and she was pregnant with my youngest sister. And we had to, you know, escape to Washington DC for, under political asylum. And, you know, even starting from there, it has always felt like, you know, crazy, dramatic things happen, and then I have to start over. You know, but the starting over is always better than whatever I came from. And so I have never been afraid of the fire, let's call it. And so when I read that, and by the way, I only read that recently, I think it was like two years ago or something, it just, it just so struck a chord with me. I just always wanted to see it, you know, to remember it.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  Because even though life has sort of patterned its, you know, its way with me, I, I just wanted to be able to always remember.

• 5:44Tim Ferriss?

  It's a great quote. And it seems like in some ways, this is another thing we'll come back to. And I typically don't lose track of the stuff I say that I'll come back to. So we will, we will get back to. But in some ways, you had these life experiences, which resemble the phoenix rising from the ashes. And now you, it seems in some capacity, you're almost seeking out experiences where you can help the phoenix rise from the ashes, which is cool to, certainly to watch. And I've been looking forward to this conversation for some time. But I want to rewind the clock and go back to.

• 6:25Tim Ferriss?

  I suppose, and maybe there were a few locations in between, but you could tell me, from Ghana, you end up in DC, and then from that point, at least around age 12, you moved to Colorado, is that right?

• 6:38Speaker 03

  Well, so I was born in Connecticut. My dad was getting his PhD, or two PhDs, in ethnomusicology and anthropology. He'd come from Ghana as a Fulbright scholar. And I was born six months before he received his degrees. So right after he received them, we went back to Ghana, which then, you know, he got into politics and we had to leave when I was five. We were in the US for about a year or so before both my parents wanted to move back to Africa, but we couldn't go to Ghana. So we moved to Nairobi, Kenya, and we were in Nairobi, Kenya for about two years.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  And then, of course, because Ghana was calling him so much, my dad decided that we should move back to Ghana. We were there for another two and a half years or so before, you know, realizing that things weren't really going to work out there, you know, politics wasn't working out for him there. And then he made the brilliant decision that we should move to Colorado Springs, Colorado, because what more diverse, you know, place to move your four African daughters and your wife than there?

• 7:48Tim Ferriss?

  How did, why Colorado? This is, this is the, I've been so curious about this. Why was Colorado the decision?

• 7:59Speaker 03

  I know.

• 8:00Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I love Colorado. I think it's a cool state.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. Colorado's amazing, by the way. I'm so glad.

• 8:06Tim Ferriss?

  But why Colorado?

• 8:07Speaker 03

  But why Colorado? There's a number of things. First, he really did like Colorado. Like, he really loved, you know, the open spaces and the mountains, and neither of my parents are afraid of cold, which I think is a stereotype about Africans or something that like, you know, you must not go to some place cold or something. But neither of them were afraid of it. But my dad also wanted to help out international students who were studying in the US because he had been one, and there was a company or organization out there called International Students Association, or International Students, International Students Association. Yeah, that's right. And they were charged with basically helping to support international students in the US who are studying to get their graduate degrees.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  And they were based in Colorado. And so he was like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Let's just go there. I'll do that. These girls will grow up in this, you know, beautiful location. We'll be in America. They'll get a great education and we'll just build our life here. I don't think he, he really was thinking about the whole diversity thing, though, when we moved there.

• 9:12Tim Ferriss?

  So what were, what were the, some of the main take, not takeaways? I mean, it sounds like taking a freshman seminar or something, but

• 9:23Tim Ferriss?

  what did you gain from that experience of being in Colorado? Or what did you learn about yourself or others? I mean, I have read accounts, for instance, of, I guess it was your mother refusing, it's too strong a word, but choosing not to make pizzas for Friday nights, I suppose it was, when people would come over and instead would make traditional dishes. So, I mean, you were set in such a, well, different environment, right? Compared to what you had experienced. What did you, what were some of the takeaways and learnings from that?

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because I have, because I moved around so much as a kid, the moving to Colorado wasn't really that traumatic. You know, I think that you would think about it and people, you know, like sort of clutch their pearls and like, oh, my God, you were this like dark skinned African girl who moved to very white Colorado. That must have been awful, you know? And the truth of the matter is that I had moved around a lot. I was a new kid all the time. And so that didn't bother me that much. However, I think culturally it was difficult for me because in the moving around, we'd always been in what I feel like were very international cities. You know, places where there was a community of like, let's call them expats.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  And so the feeling was always very cosmopolitan, you know? That people moved around, they had at least some idea of where you came from, you know? And there was some appreciation for difference. And I didn't find that at first when I got to Colorado Springs, you know? That there was not an appreciation of anything that was different from.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  People who grew up in Colorado. And that was difficult, you know, because I wanted to, you know, fit in, obviously, I was 12. Um, I wanted to make friends, I wanted to feel quote unquote, "normal." And, you know, now, of course, I can look back at it and be very thankful that my mom, yeah, "refuse" is actually a good word, because you haven't met my mother, but,

• 11:34Speaker 03

  there are no choices, she's refusing, you know?

• 11:38Speaker 03

  She refused, uh, to buy pizza, you know? Yeah, she would say, "Listen, like, you go to their house, they feed you their food. They come to our house, we feed them our food." Like, she, it was just, there was no argument, you know? Um, but also was like, things like speaking our native tongue in the house, you know? It was like, she had no problem, um, again, like, you know, having my, my little teenage friends over and speaking to me in our native tongue, oftentimes addressing them in our native tongue, even though she speaks three languages, you know, including English very well.

• 12:10Tim Ferriss?

  What is, what is your native tongue?

• 12:13Speaker 03

  Fanti.

• 12:14Tim Ferriss?

  Fanti?

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a dialect in Ghana, yeah. So, anyway, it's just, you know, she just, she, she is, has been instrumental um, in my, you know, sort of acceptance of even myself, you know? That, um, there was, the things that I learned from that moment were that, you know, it's okay, it really is okay to be different and be vastly different. Um, and to celebrate those things, you know, not to be ashamed of it, not to hide it, not to try and be something else because it's not the norm. Um, and that, that's okay. You know, even just, even that simple, what seems like a simple thing has been so, um, instrumental in my life.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  Uh, and even as I sit here today, you know, that I am never afraid of being the odd man out, you know, because I feel very comfortable in that space.

• 13:03Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I think, when I think of you, one of the adjectives that jumps to mind is, is "bold." And I'm, and I'm curious, I'd love to dig into where that comes from. Uh, maybe it comes primarily from your mom, but for instance, You seem to really aggressively, and I mean that in a good way, pursue certain leadership positions, right? And that started pretty early, as I understand it. So captain of the cheerleading squad and the track team, is that right?

• 13:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:35Tim Ferriss?

  You also ran for student council.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Yes, I lost.

• 13:38Tim Ferriss?

  Which is okay, can't all bad a thousand. And

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Amen.

• 13:44Tim Ferriss?

  And on and on and on and on. So how did you develop that? And are your sisters all that way as well?

• 13:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's in the genes, you know? Both my parents are very bold people. Like I told you, my dad was, you know, he ran for political office. He had no problem like moving his family around the world, you know, making probably decisions that other parents wouldn't make, you know? My mom has always been very bold, you know, in the way that she, in her fashion, in the way that she raised us, in her speech, in her directness. That those are all things that I just grew up hearing and knowing, that there was never any fear that I wasn't going to be able to do something. And my parents never, they would never allow me, you know, to feel like I wasn't able to do something.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  And so that fearlessness or boldness or going for the big thing has been taught as well as it's my nature, you know, because those are the kind of people I come from.

• 14:49Tim Ferriss?

  So a couple of questions. What were your best events in track?

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Oh, I was a sprinter. So the 100, the 200, the four by one and the 100 hurdles were my, were my races. I loved running.

• 15:01Tim Ferriss?

  I'll definitely not do any workouts with you.

• 15:05Tim Ferriss?

  Number one, I will tear, I'll tear all the hamstrings. And now, the, what, in the case of, say, the student council, where you lost, what would your parents say to you after something like that? Yeah, I'm just, if you can recall, or even if you...

• 15:26Speaker 03

  Oh, I recall.

• 15:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, alright, so what would they say to you after something like that?

• 15:29Speaker 03

  It's the same thing that they say to me after anything that I consider a failure, you know? First of all, again, both of them, very direct, in a... Ooh, how do I describe it? It's like, you know, they're like stereotypically African, you know? Like, my dad is very harsh in the way that he speaks, you know? Like, he's like, if, when, so for instance, when I lost, I came home, he's like... And obviously, he'd been in politics, right? So he feels like, oh, you should naturally, you should win, you know? Run a campaign, you win. And so I come home, and he's like, "Hey, how do you go?" I'm gonna do the accent because, you know? "Hey, how do you go?" I was like, "Yeah, so I didn't get it." He's like, "Didn't get what? Not one position?

• 16:13Speaker 03

  You didn't get president, you didn't get vice president, you didn't get assemblyman, you didn't get councilman, you didn't get anything? Nothing at all?" You know, and I'm like, "Uh, no, like, no position at all." He's like, "You should do it next year. Build up your audience and do it next year." You know, it was always that way. It was like, there was no time for tears.

• 16:38Speaker 03

  It was just like, "Okay, fine, just do it next year." You know, it's like, I don't even know why, like, this is not, this is not a question, you know? This is a demand. It's not an option for you. I don't care if you don't think you want to do it again, you're gonna do it next year.

• 16:51Tim Ferriss?

  So, did you do it next year?

• 16:52Speaker 03

  I sure didn't, I lost again.

• 16:54Tim Ferriss?

  And then what? Did he say the same thing?

• 16:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, he always, that's the funny thing, is that like, I literally had to graduate from high school before he stopped harassing me about running for student council. You know, it's like, I had to leave school, like, that was the only solution. You know? He would have made me run until like, there was no one left to vote, you know? Like, he made me do it again and again and again.

• 17:20Tim Ferriss?

  Just outlive them all, so you can vote for yourself.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly, completely.

• 17:23Tim Ferriss?

  What about your mom?

• 17:26Speaker 03

  Oh, my mom, my mom is definitely more nurturing. Uh, you know, she's the one who's like, oh, well, maybe, you know, we should figure out a new campaign, you know, or maybe we should make something, you know, like she's always very solution oriented as well, but in a softer way. Uh, and so she was, you know, she allowed me to sulk and feel sorry for myself, you know, and, and then, I'll make you feel, give you the pep talk, you know, to make you go back out, but also very solution oriented to say, okay, we're gonna do this again, we're just gonna try some new things.

• 17:57Tim Ferriss?

  Now, now, so, this is a, this is an odd segue, but we're gonna go there anyway. Uh, is it true that you brought Jay-Z to campus at one point? Was it high school or college?

• 18:10Speaker 03

  Dude, it was college at Wesleyan University, South Tenth, Connecticut, yeah. I think it was like, it had to be nineteen ninety-six probably.

• 18:18Tim Ferriss?

  How, how does that happen?

• 18:19Speaker 03

  Maybe ninety, maybe ninety-five, because it was really early. Um, so, yeah, so I got to college, um, I was pre-med. And I, although I was, I was good in the sciences and math, the things that really, um, made me, you know, like, live, or excited, you know, the things were exciting to me were the arts. You know, music and dance and art and all the, and writing and that kind of thing. And, um, so my outlets were to join all of the like, social clubs that would allow me to, you know, express myself in that way. Um, and so for me, one of those places was like the, you know, the, the student, the committee for like African-American development,

• 19:03Speaker 03

  I think that's what it was called, or the Black Student Alliance, I think another place it's called. And one of the things we always did was, you know, fundraisers, right? Because you needed the money to put on the show, to do, do, do. And, um, I joined the committee for like musical engagement.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  I don't even know what that means.

• 19:23Tim Ferriss?

  Sexy name.

• 19:24Speaker 03

  Very, I mean, it's very professional. And so, yeah, and so we, we had a campus radio station. I didn't have a show, but I had all my, you know, all the friends who were doing the radio stations and who had, or who had the radio programs, radio shows, and had the opportunity to bring other people, you know, bring people as guests to campus. And one of those guys knew Jay-Z's people. And so we were throwing, you know, like, I think it had to be like the fall, you know, the fall dance or something like that. And, um, you know, just talk to him about all the different options. And I remember that he had this, um, like, a collection of CDs, you know? It was like the, what would they call back then?

• 20:07Speaker 03

  It was like, you could order them for like 99 cents. Do you remember?

• 20:10Tim Ferriss?

  I know what you're talking about. It was like the, uh, I want to say the Random House Clearing something or other, but I'm not getting, no Columbia House Records?

• 20:18Speaker 03

  It was something like that, where you could get like 12 CDs for like a dollar or whatever.

• 20:22Tim Ferriss?

  Right, right, right.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  It was definitely some sort of scheme. And he had like hundreds of these things. And we were, you know, he was showing me like his favorites and Jay-Z was one. And I wasn't really familiar with Jay-Z because even though, um, I grew, like I said, I went to, you know, high school in Colorado. Uh, I definitely, you know, swung more, uh, west coast, like gangster rap than I did east coast hip hop. And so I wasn't as familiar with Jay. But I was determined that if these set of people wanted to see, uh, you know, east coast rapper, then Jay-Z was gonna be the best. And so we were gonna go get him. So literally it was like phone calls. We like called the management team. I don't even know how we got the phone number, to be honest with you.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  Called, we made a pitch. Yeah, and he came to campus. He came to campus. And we were in the cafeteria. That's where we set up.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  Charts like $2 at the door. Because, you know, it's like when you give a free concert, usually, I learned that actually then, that when you do things for free, people don't show up. If you make a little bit of value, they, they, you know, they, they will show up. So it was $2 at the door. It was not very packed in there. Which is so unfortunate. Jay was not happy with that. But we threw it, we threw it. And now I can say I did it.

• 21:43Tim Ferriss?

  Now, how, how big was he at the time? Was he, was he, it's hard for me to rewind the tape and think back to that point. Was, in other words, was that in your mind, a huge get? Or was like, oh, cool. We got this guy who is very well known on the East Coast, but, dot, dot, dot. Or was it as big a get as I'm envisioning in my head?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  You know what? It, I think at the time, we thought it was a big get because he was well known in New York or in the tri-state area. And we, we wanted a name that people would recognize. So it wasn't like he was unknown, you know? But he wasn't the international superstar that he, obviously that he is now. And so to us, we were really excited. We, we, we knew who he was and we were excited to have him. But Wesleyan is not, is not a, you know, a diverse college either. So, or wasn't then anyway. And so the, let's just call it the target audience was not big enough to fill the cafeteria that we had planned.

• 22:51Tim Ferriss?

  What was, do you remember your pitch on the phone? Do you remember any of the wording or?

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 22:57Tim Ferriss?

  Anything that you used? I know that's a long time ago, but I'm just, I'm always curious.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:02Tim Ferriss?

  Because I suspect, I mean, you're, you are a writer. I mean, I, I view you as that. I mean, you're very good at wordsmithing and it strikes me that people who get good at deal making usually start, or very often, not usually, because you can develop it later, but very often get a lot of practice in early, right?

• 23:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:27Tim Ferriss?

  So, so if you have to give good phone, right?

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:31Tim Ferriss?

  Figure out certain approaches to it so that you don't get hung up on in the first 30 seconds.

• 23:38Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let's, here, I'll tell you what, I'll, I'll bring up another example of negotiation. Maybe we can edge into it that way. So, you mentioned east coast, west coast. So, we'll just in passing mention, we don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but that you ended up teaching a class on Tupac, I believe.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 23:57Tim Ferriss?

  Right? In your, in your, in all your spare time, even though you were pre-med and, and doing all these various things. What I'm really curious about is something that I read in the New York Times, and it says, "She got into medical school but lobbied her parents for a year-long sabbatical." And then, and then you said, "They agreed, which was their mistake." Now, I don't know your parents, other than what I've read, but I'm like, okay, I'm just thinking in my mind, what that conversation might have been like. So, could you walk us through, A, why did you want to take a year-long sabbatical? And then, B, how did you pitch it? Or what was that like?

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh. Well, you know what's funny? I think the art of the pitch is always about enthusiasm. You know? It's like, it doesn't really matter what you say, as long as you're really excited about what you're saying. That people often then will give you the benefit of the doubt. They really will.

• 24:51Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, they, and, and along with the, with the Jay-Z conversation, I don't remember exactly what I said, but I know I was enthusiastic about it. You know? And I made the outcome sound probably really good.

• 25:04Tim Ferriss?

  I'm sure.

• 25:06Speaker 03

  That there was some benefit. And the same thing with my parents. You know, my dad was very much, so when I was a kid, I was, I was really good in sciences and math. And, you know, coming from Colorado, there were not a lot of, you know, black girls or young women who were science and math nerds, who also were on the cheerleading team, you know, going to college. There just, there were just weren't a lot of numbers of us. And so, I found myself in a, probably the enviable position of having my choice of places to go and getting into programs that, you know, were looking, obviously, for diversity, but also somebody like me, who just didn't appear to be the normal stereotypical, probably

• 25:51Speaker 03

  pre-med student. And...

• 25:53Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think you're the normal stereotypical anything. From, from what I, from what I can tell.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  You might be right. You might be right. You might be right. Oh, my God, I've never thought of it that way.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  Oh my god, that makes me laugh.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  But my, my parents were so proud, you know, of the fact that I was going to be a doctor. Because for them, you know, not only like politics and academics were really important, but you know, becoming a doctor, an engineer, or a lawyer were the three professions that they felt would be acceptable, you know, for their daughters. And so, becoming a doctor was what needed to happen, you know? And so, yeah, I graduated pre-med, uh, but I knew in my heart that I just, I knew I didn't want to do that forever. And, or be a doctor forever. And I just didn't know how else to push that back until I could figure out what I actually wanted to do. Cause it wasn't like, I was like, oh, I want to go be a dancer.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  You know, I feel like that would have been easier if I knew what I wanted to do. I just had no idea. I was like, no, I like these arts, but I don't know what career that is. And so I, I have nothing to tell my parents that like, I'm not gonna be a doctor, but I'm gonna do this instead. There was just nothing. And so, the conversation was, I want to make sure that I'm gonna go to school, be committed to it, and graduate in the amount of time that will be acceptable to you. I can't do that unless I've taken time to really figure this out. And that was really my pitch, like, so the end result was, you know, or what I was, the, the picture I was painting was that I could go now and struggle, right?

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Because I'd be looking for other things to satisfy me, um, and I'd probably fail. Or I could take a year, get all of this wildness out of me.

• 27:45Tim Ferriss?

  That worked, that, that worked.

• 27:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, go, go in a more balanced way.

• 27:49Tim Ferriss?

  I'm just kidding, yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  And of course they chose, yeah, of course they chose the, the previous one. They were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go, go, like, you know, or I'm sorry. Of course, they chose the lab because of course they were like, go, go, yeah, yeah. Go get all that out of your system and then go to school and be serious. And yeah, that was, that was definitely a mistake for them.

• 28:06Tim Ferriss?

  So, so they agree. And then you step into this sabbatical. Did you have plans for it already or were you flying blind? Like, walk us through any of the milestones in that, in that first year?

• 28:21Speaker 03

  I had no idea what I was doing. You know what's funny is like back to your question about being or think we started about being scared. I was scared. You know, I was really scared. I didn't know what I was gonna do. But the thing is that I knew I was really smart and I knew I could like hustle. And so with those two things,

• 28:44Speaker 03

  armed with smarts and hustle, my, I had one friend who was living in New York and I always wanted to live in New York. And she was getting her masters in film from Columbia. And so she had a, like a graduate apartment with a roommate, but they had a couch. And so basically I told her and her roommate that if they would allow me to stay on their couch for three months while I figured out how to get a job and my own place, you know, that I would cook, you know, I would cook dinner like every night. So that was sort of the trade off. And they agreed. So, yeah, I went to New York with no plan. Like, I really didn't know what I was gonna do.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  But I was, I didn't have any money because my parents were definitely not gonna finance this year.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  Own kid, you know, in the streets of New York, you're gonna have to figure it out. And there was this little Dominican spot on the corner of 125th Street, near Columbia where it was called Floridita, where there was a very kind older lady who kind of took me under her wing, you know, she'd She'd feed me. Man, let me tell you, she'd feed me for free.

• 30:01Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, she'd give me like a meal a day.

• 30:04Tim Ferriss?

  Now, hold on a second. I hate to interrupt, but I have to ask, like, how did that happen? I mean, did you just walk in and charm her off her feet?

• 30:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:12Tim Ferriss?

  How did that end up happening?

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would go in and, at first, it started in the morning. Because, honestly, I really didn't have any money. And so I wanted my money to last, so I would go in in the morning and they were selling like fresh rolls for 10 cents. And so I would buy the fresh roll, eat that. I, you know, had coffee back at the house or tea, and so I would go back to the apartment. And that would be literally like sometimes my meal for the day.

• 30:43Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  And so I went in every day, and she knew that I was coming in every day, but she knew I didn't have a job. You know, so we just started making conversation and very much, I mean, it's very much in my personality to talk to strangers. I'm very curious about people. And so I asked her a ton of questions, you know, and then she started asking me questions. And I don't know, we just struck up a friendship. And eventually I confessed to her that I didn't know what I was doing. You know, I was just here trying to figure it out. I was sleeping on my friend's couch, you know, and she had a lot of really great advice. And one of the practical ones, she had lots of good like life advice. But one practical one was that her niece had signed up at a temp agency. And they would call her in the morning and tell her where to go. And she was making good money doing that, right? Because, hell, for me, it was like I'm making no money, so any money was...

• 31:30Speaker 03

  I was like, just pay me in rolls, like I'm cool, you know? But she, you know, gave me the number of the temp agency and it literally changed my life. You know, because I called the temp agency, they started sending me out on jobs. I started making some money. I was able to feed myself. And then one day, the magic call came, which was that Spike Lee had fired his assistant. And they needed me to go answer the phones at his new advertising agency that he had just created on Madison Avenue, 49th Street in Manhattan. And I went.

• 32:05Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so I have a bunch of questions that are probably gonna drive my listeners nuts because they're gonna be like, Ferris, you're asking the most unimportant, uninteresting questions imaginable, but you're cooking for your friends.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:18Tim Ferriss?

  Every night, right? What were your go- do you remember your go-to meals?

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, they're still my go-to meals now.

• 32:25Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 32:25Speaker 03

  Always like some sort of starch, right? So either pasta or rice were my two that I like, or potatoes every once in a while, but I don't like potatoes myself, so that. A meat, you know, so I like stews and soups. So chicken or beef or fish in like a tomato-based soup or tomato-based stew, and then a green. That was usually, so some variation of that every day.

• 32:50Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have a favorite green? If you had to choose one or two to have in your refrigerator as a staple, what would they be?

• 32:55Speaker 03

  Oh, maybe some, well, I really like collard greens now.

• 32:59Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, so good.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Right? Collard greens are so good. They're hard to make, but they're, once you know how to do it, it's, they're so delicious. And collards can sit, you know, for some time, so you make them every day, you know?

• 33:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, they don't, they don't fall apart as much. One, just, just since I have food on the brain, I haven't had much to eat today, I'll make a recommendation. If you get a light fish, like a cod or tilapia, you can cook it in almond flour, so you just kind of coat it in almond flour, and then you can make tacos using the collard greens as the wraps.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  What?

• 33:32Tim Ferriss?

  And they're just amazing. Anyway, and it all keeps it.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  This is a very interesting recipe.

• 33:38Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it's fantastic.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, get some guacamole, it's, it's killer. So now, I want to talk about the, your fresh roll connection and the

• 33:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:50Tim Ferriss?

  life advice she gave you. Is there, do you recall any of the other advice that she gave you besides the very practical tactical recommendation?

• 33:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it wasn't so much even about her advice, but the fact that she was so encouraging, you know? Like, I would go in there every morning and she would just, you know, have the big smile on her face and just say, you know, so today's the day, you know, today's the day. Like that, that kind of advice, you know, where like every day, even if it didn't happen yesterday, she'd be like, today's it, like it's it, you know, you're gonna get it today. And she didn't even know what in the hell I was trying to do.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  It's like today's the day, it's it. You know, but also just, you know, things like, you know, she's just smiling people, be smiling all the time. You know, just stuff like that, where, you know, I feel like any sort of older mom or grandma type of character would tell you, you know, that like, smile at people, be friendly. You know, today is the day, make it happen today, you know, that kind of thing. She was just more of an encourager than anything.

• 34:51Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I mean, without the right state and without the right optimism, it's it's hard to come up with the proper strategy or put any of it.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:01Tim Ferriss?

  Into action, right? So that's sort of a precursor to everything else.

• 35:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, she was absolutely right.

• 35:06Tim Ferriss?

  So Spike Lee's ad agency. Um, all right, so I.

• 35:12Tim Ferriss?

  All right, so you're you're there and my my understanding, I have, I do not know much about this. I just did a little bit of homework and I wanted to get the real story. So I, my understanding is that he dropped a draft of, I think it was Bamboozled in front of me.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:29Tim Ferriss?

  And said, tell me what you think of this.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Hmm. Yeah, he told me to read it.

• 35:34Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, okay, got it. He told you to read, okay, this is even better. Got it. All right, so this makes it even more.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I was the idiot.

• 35:40Tim Ferriss?

  That's really important. Okay, so now tell us, tell us what happened after that.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  So I'm there answering phones.

• 35:46Tim Ferriss?

  That now, just, just as people hear this story, that difference is really, really important. Right? Here, please read this, it's different, yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  Exactly, because I was answering phones, let's remember, I was answering phones. I was doing nothing else when answering phones. Actually, that's a lie. I was getting coffee, I was cleaning up dirt, like I was doing whatever needed to be done, right? And, um, yeah, he had just, he had just finished writing Bamboozled. He was about to start, like, you know, casting and principal photography. And he, yeah, he was walking by my little reception desk and he dropped in, he was like, hey, read this. Because actually, he knew when I'd gone in a few, a few times that he'd made small talk with me. He knew that I, um, I love to read, uh, and that I wanted to write. Were two things that I thought I wanted to do at the time. And so I think for him, it was just a, you know, like I just wrote something here, you read it, you know? Uh, but what I heard

• 36:41Speaker 03

  was you should give your thoughts on this.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  And by thoughts, I thought he meant like mark it up. So I took my nice, and why I had a red pen, I will never know. Like I curse myself to this day, like, why did you pick up a red pen of all things? Like, why not a blue pen or a black pen? But why a red?

• 37:01Tim Ferriss?

  Red is very judgmental, yeah.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  Red is a very judgmental pen, you know? And I read it and made notes and corrections. And I don't know, just made, yeah, lots of markups in his manuscript. And then he came, he came back like, you know, it wasn't the next day, but it was like maybe three days later. Um, which by the way, was, was quite a feat because Bamboozled is a, is a hard script to read. Um, I don't know if you've seen the film, but it's, it's very heavy. And he came back and he was like, what'd you think? And I handed him, I handed it to him. And he like opened, like he looked kind of confused. He opens it up, he's like flipping through the pages, he's like, you marked up my script? You know, and I was like, I was like, oh, you know, it was like one of those moments where you're just like, oh, what?

• 37:48Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, what? Does that not what you want me to do? I'm sorry, did I do something wrong? I don't know what I did wrong, you know? And he just, he just shook his head and just walked off. And I thought for sure I was fired. I was like, I just started packing up my, I was like, where's my purse? Let me just go ahead and get my purse right now because I'm out of here.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  But he came back out like, you know, I'm sitting there like literally shaking. Like I think I, I really need to pee. It's like my armpits are itching. I'm like, oh, my God, I can't even. And he, he left me like that for like an hour and a half and he comes out and he's like, you made some good notes. I was like, oh, okay, okay. And it was literally that moment where he was like, you know what? You should stick around. He was like, I think we could find a job for you here. And literally that's how I got my permanent job there. So out of that crazy moment, uh, I believe he realized my potential.

• 38:40Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man, what a great story. So a friend of mine, you may have bumped into him or, or heard of him, but you should meet him at some point. He's in the Bay Area named Naval Ravikant. Fantastic entrepreneur and investor, uh, good, good friend of mine. And, and he has said, I'm paraphrasing here, but uh, along, something along the lines of, if I always did what I was qualified to do, I'd be pushing a broom somewhere. True. And, uh, It's just such a great, such a great story because there are so many examples of moments like this. When I look back at the stories of folks I've had on the podcast,

• 39:24Tim Ferriss?

  it's like just doing that one extra thing that you may not be qualified to do, even if it's accidental, right?

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:32Tim Ferriss?

  But taking that initiative is so key. Now, if we look forward then from that point, were there any particularly critical decisions that were sort of forged your career over the next few years following that incident that you can look back to?

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think so. You know, I really love that quote that you just said because it is true. You know, it's like at one point I was doing really well with Spike, you know, I got promoted a few times and I was looking around thinking, because what he was really doing was now what we call like the pop culture marketing, right, or consumer engagement. But at the time, it wasn't called that. And what I felt was like, oh, this is easy to me. You know, I can do this. I need something that will make people pay attention to me and know that I'm smart. So I was like, oh, let me go sign up for some pharmaceutical advertising, like a pharmaceutical advertising job, you know?

• 40:38Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Because that's hard, you know, and it's really, really difficult to execute. And I lasted like three months there, which, by the way, also led me to understand that of course I'm capable, you know? Of course, it's like if I didn't push myself that way, I wouldn't have then made the next jump, right? Knowing that, okay, I'm smart enough to do this, but this is not what I want to do. I want to get back to the things I do know how to do and make them better. And to me, those are some of the more critical moments, whereas like it feels like failure, but it's actually helping you turn around, helping you to put a finer point on what you actually know how to do or what you should

• 41:18Speaker 03

  be doing. And that's been, you know, several, several times like that where I've felt like, you know, maybe stretching with something that...

• 41:30Speaker 03

  I wasn't quite sure I could I could reach that bar, but I was gonna fake it anyway.

• 41:36Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  Till, you know, it's like when I I at one point, um, after I left Spike's agency, I went to Pepsi. And um, after a few years there, I quit and took a job at a fashion company called Ashley Stewart.

• 41:52Tim Ferriss?

  Why, if you don't mind me asking, why did you quit?

• 41:56Speaker 03

  I quit because, God, man, I'm telling you, like, I quit for the most ridiculous reason sometimes. I quit because I was a brand manager and, you know, there was a very specific way that Pepsi organized its uh, marketing, marketing team, right? It was like you had a class, everybody was promoted, um, you know, or not. You had, you know, just a particular set of responsibilities. You couldn't really stretch outside of those. And it just wasn't, I I was just like, oh, my God, if I stay here, I'm just gonna be some, you know, like, middle management person with nothing, you know, no excitement. I just didn't feel like that was a thing for me. And enough that there's anything wrong with it, it just wasn't for me.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  I wanted to do more. And also, I had already begun to what I would call experiment with my look. That I I really didn't wanna look like my colleagues and I knew that I didn't have to. And so I'd already started to experiment and people would make comments all the time, you know, like about whatever I was wearing, literally every day. I felt like I was like walking a runway every day. Cause I would walk into the office, be like, ooh, what you got on today, you know? And so people would say things like, why don't you, why are you working here? You should work in a fashion company. And mind you, I had no idea about the business of fashion at all, zero idea.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  But I knew I had obviously the gold standard in marketing at the time, which was this Pepsi, you know, pedigree uh, in marketing and the small company, as I mentioned, Ashley Stewart, which was based in Secaucus, New Jersey.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  I was looking for the head of marketing because they were trying to turn around the brand. I'd also just had my daughter and the brand was really targeted towards plus-size women of color, you know, to like, you know, fashion was print, you know, like zebra print and gold and like LeMay and things like that. It wasn't the like, you know, competitor who was like, you know, tan clothes and black and grays. And I'd, you know, gained some weight with with the pregnancy of my with my pregnancy and I just felt like I wanted to change the way that women were portrayed, or at least plus-size women were portrayed, and it felt like the right thing to do. So without any experience at all, I was like,

• 44:18Speaker 03

  oh yeah, I'm gonna go do that. Plus, it was a team and it was the first time I would be the head of anything, you know?

• 44:23Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  So I was like, oh, I want experience as as a leader to run my own team. I have this awesome marketing background and I am super cute. Like, why can't I do it? I don't understand. Yeah, I went and again, I failed in like a year. By a year, I was done. It was it was over.

• 44:41Tim Ferriss?

  What was the what was the cause of the failure? Or what were the factors?

• 44:46Speaker 03

  Man, there were many factors. One, I didn't know when the hell I was doing. Let's just start there. I can admit that now, you know? No, but it was just I bit off too much, you know? I just now, looking back, I'm like, what the hell was I thinking? You know? It was like I just I bit off more than I could chew. It was both the fact that, or there was a few reasons. One, it was a pretty big team and I'd never run a team that size before. And leadership is something that you grow into. You know, you're not, you don't just run in and do it. You know, it's like you've gotta build it. You know, you gotta understand people. You have to understand how what your management style is like. You know, that's as important as the people you're managing. Um, how to manage different types of people and different types of personalities,

• 45:30Speaker 03

  how to motivate people, you know, and then, yeah, the simple basics of like, I didn't know anything about merchandising or about store turns. Um, and without that kind of knowledge, I wasn't as a, I wasn't as efficient to my business partner as I could have been, you know, so I had, I brought all this wealth of, you know, knowledge about base, you know, the foundations of marketing and, you know, email campaigns and photo shoots and, you know, getting models together and the look and feel and partnerships with different companies, but I didn't understand the basics of fashion, you know, and how the business turns. And so how could I be a good contributor, a good business partner, uh, to my colleagues? I just couldn't.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  And so, yeah, about, about, I would say about nine months into it, I was like, yeah, you know what, this ain't gonna work. Uh, but I didn't want to admit failure. And so it was somewhat of a relief too, when they came to me and they're like, do you like what you're doing? You think you're good at what you do? And I'm like, I think I'm good at what I do, just not here.

• 46:35Speaker 03

  And they're like, yeah, us too. And I'm like, yeah, okay, that sounds good. Yeah, so I just, I just, I just grabbed my things and go.

• 46:43Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man. And how did, uh, how did, did Beats enter the scene?

• 46:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're hitting like all the points. So I went back to Pepsi after my Ashley Stewart experience, which was a much better situation for me, by the way, uh, because I went back knowing that I didn't want to do traditional brand management, but that I was really good at the pop culture stuff. And so we created a new group called the Music Entertainment Group, which meant that I was doing all the deal making for all of the brands in the, you know, Pepsi portfolio, um, across all entertainment types. And so all of the deals were coming through me and I was able to really do some fun things. Towards the end of, or the middle of 2013,

• 47:30Speaker 03

  my husband, who I'd been married to for almost 10 years, was diagnosed with cancer. And I was really at the, you know, it just hit us at a time when we were both really high on our, in our careers, right? Because I had, I'd really found my stride in what I felt like corporate America, but in marketing with this, you know, music and entertainment marketing team. We had just come off like this big, you know, show for the Super Bowl with Beyonce. I was, I mean, I was feeling myself. I was like, I am just the best. Like, nothing can take me down, you know? And my husband, Peter, was also doing really well. He was in advertising as well. He was a producer. And we were both doing really well. Our daughter was four. We had our little family.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  And when he was diagnosed, it was just such a blow to us. Unfortunately, neither of us are, you know, strangers to cancer. Both of our mothers are cancer survivors, breast cancer survivors, and they both, you know, received treatment and radiation and chemo and all of that, surgery. And so like our first questions were, you know, what, what happens? Like, what's the plan? What do we do? And there was no plan because he had a very rare cancer. And for him, he just wanted to be able to live his life, you know, as passionately as he could for whatever amount of time that he had left. And we found out really quickly that he really didn't have a lot of time.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  And so, six months after he is, he was diagnosed, he passed away. And that was in December. We just actually celebrated four years that he's been gone. And I, I just, I was so lost, you know, in that I wasn't quite sure what to do. You know, I, I, we had been living this very fast life.

• 49:26Speaker 03

  He was so much alive, you know, for me. And that in those last months, you know, we were trying to do everything that we could to fit, you know, the rest of our lives into those few weeks. And one of the things he made me promise. Along with, he was also a very funny guy. Uh, so he had a lot of jokes. One of them was that I, I'm not Catholic. I'm not really religious. Um, I am spiritual though, but he was, you know, born and raised Catholic and he promised, or he made me promise that I would raise our daughter Catholic after he died, or he would haunt me. Um, which was like a real threat. Cause I'm also, I'm afraid of ghosts and I was like, you can't haunt me? That's not fair.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  And he's like, yeah, but I will though. So you better raise her Catholic. Um, which is, you know, makes me laugh now, cause I really am raising her Catholic, cause I'm really afraid. But in any case, that's a whole nother story. Um, but part of that also, and what he made me promise was that, you know, I wouldn't stop living life as, as, you know, deeply as, you know, again, back to the fire, you know, with as much fire as possible. That what we had learned in the six months was that you really can't take any day for granted. You know, and that I would need to do that. Um, and so after he passed away, and um, I went back to work because I, you know, I really do enjoy my work and I find solace in it

• 50:53Speaker 03

  and I find inspiration in it. But I went back to Pepsi and I just knew that I needed to find something different to do. Um, or something that, something that would like pull me into the future, if that makes any sense at all.

• 51:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, makes perfect sense.

• 51:06Speaker 03

  Um, and also, you know, by divine intervention, I met Jimmy Iovine around the same time. And Jimmy had just launched Beats Music. So he already had Beats Electronics, you know, headphones and speakers, et cetera. That was already a booming business. And so, but he had launched Beats Music, which was the first streaming platform, um, for music under him. And he was looking for head of marketing. And the funny thing is of course, like, here I was, like, okay, I know big brand marketing. I get it. Right, all of the important, the foundational stuff. I also understand the music entertainment space, because I've been doing it.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Plus, I needed emotionally, something to look forward to. You know, I needed to build the future. And I needed something, again, back to like, taking risks and quitting jobs, maybe sometimes for stupid reasons. I was like, you know, I need to take another risk. I need another one. I need something to make me feel alive. And so, I told him I would move across the country with my four-year-old daughter. This was three months after my husband had passed away. And I said, "Okay, I will leave New York. I'm gonna quit my job, leave New York, and I'm moving to LA to help you build this thing." And I also took it as a sign that Beats Music was born on my birthday. So I was like, "Hell, this makes all the sense in the world." "Yes, I'm coming." Yeah, so I moved to LA. And, yeah.

• 52:33Tim Ferriss?

  So, uh, so there's so many different things I'd love to ask you about. A few of the stories that you just told. Before I do that, anyone listening who has not seen The Defiant Ones, which is a mini-series, incredibly well-done, about Dr. Dre and Jimmy and the entire story of Beats, and certainly both of their lives. I highly, highly recommend checking it out. I had a number of questions, and I thought we could start with, just to rewind the clock. This is certainly tying into your late husband.

• 53:13Tim Ferriss?

  But, in Tribe of Mentors, thank you for being part of the book, by the way.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Yes, oh, such an honor.

• 53:21Tim Ferriss?

  I asked you about books that have had a large impact on your life. And you mentioned Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon. So I was wondering if you could just explain for people why that has had an impact on your life, and what it's meant to you.

• 53:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, man. Okay, so Toni Morrison is one of my favorite authors. I've been reading her since I was in high school. And she's a really hard author, you know, she doesn't take it easy on her readers. I think, you know, it's like sometimes, um, you know, you, you write for the lowest common denominator, right? But she doesn't. She's like, you're gonna meet me at my level. And she's just a really difficult author, but I really love her storytelling. Tells the experience of the African American, you know, story, the African American experience so well and so richly. Um, so I really enjoy her, her books, but my favorite is Song of Solomon. And when I was in, when I moved, when I finally got like my permanent job with Spike.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Um, it was in the Madison Avenue building with DDB, which is, you know, the agency that basically Mad Men was, was um, created about, right? And Peter worked, my late husband, Peter, worked at DDB. And they had a cafeteria at the bottom of the building. And so, um, one day I'm standing in line, Peter, by the way, was a, you know, six, four uh, of Italian descent. Um, just a big dude with a big voice and a big personality. And a big gold chain, which sounds really stereotypical, but he really did wear like a gold chain. And so he's standing behind me in the line, by the way, I don't notice him at all.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  And he, which is hard to imagine because I just described him as like this big person, but guess what? I'm like a big personality too, so screw that, you know what I mean?

• 55:10Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  Anyway. Um, so he sat behind me and, you know, he's trying to drop some lines, you know, like pick up lines and whatever. I'm just like, this dude just needs to like quit, like what, you know, to turn around. And he's like, I've been coming down here to try and catch you. You know, I would, I would love to take you out sometime. And I was like, or no, he said, he said, I would love to get to know you better. And I was like, all right, if you want to get to know me better, you should read Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon. And then we can talk about it.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  And I walked away, right? Thinking like, good, there, there we go, got rid of him.

• 55:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  You know, but literally like three weeks later, he finds me in the cafeteria again and he's like, I read the book. And I was like, no, that's that's actually impossible. I don't believe you. But okay, you know, we can have a coffee and we can talk about it. So we sat down for coffee and he knew so much about the characters, the obviously the plot lines. We had such a rich discussion. And it was such a beautiful moment for me because I was like, wow, okay, you know, when somebody is is really, when somebody is really interested. If somebody really wants to get to know you, they're gonna do whatever it is to that it takes to get to know you. The bar was raised so high, you know, and then it was raised higher. Uh, because then for my birthday, which was about a month later, by then we'd been dating.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Um, he painted a, a, a picture of characters from the book for me for my birthday. And I knew then I was like, this guy is everything. You know, if he is willing to get to know me on my terms, on my level. Uh, even though it's a high bar and he's gonna jump it. And then go the extra step of being creative about how he presents it back to me in a new way. That was, that was gonna be it.

• 56:55Tim Ferriss?

  Such a great story. Yeah, that's that that dude brought his A game. That's, that's a serious commitment.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  I mean, legit A game, legit A game. I have a painting hanging in my daughter's room now. And, uh, the book, um, that I gave him still sits, uh, on my bedside.

• 57:15Tim Ferriss?

  So I, I'd love to follow that up with a question about.

• 57:21Tim Ferriss?

  I suppose grief and what helped you through the grieving process. I mean, were there any particular realizations or resources or pieces of advice or anything that that helped you throughout that process?

• 57:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's amazing. The, the part about our story that I don't often talk about, actually, I've never talked about. Um, so you gotta excuse me because I might get emotional.

• 57:46Tim Ferriss?

  No problem.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Is that, um, before he was diagnosed, um, we were actually separated. Uh, we were, you know, it was just a difficult time. And like I said, we were both moving so fast in our careers, things were really popping. And I think we just stopped communicating properly. So we were separated and, um, I really, you know, didn't think that we would get back together, you know, because I just thought, ah, you know what, relationships end and, you know, that was a time of life and da, da, da, da, right? And then he got sick. And I realized that, you know, you only get these chances at this type of love

• 58:28Speaker 03

  maybe once, you know, like the very lucky get it once. Um, and I had it. And so for me, it was a real moment of reckoning, you know, to understand that, you know, love like that doesn't come around and to appreciate it. And that love like that not only doesn't come around often and to appreciate it, but that it can last after the physical, you know? And after he passed away, it was for me really understanding what it means to forgive yourself, you know? Like regret and feeling terribly about maybe angry words you've said

• 59:10Speaker 03

  or, you know, taking someone for granted or taking love for granted. It just changed my whole perspective. And for me, the grief was not even just about just losing him, but also forgiving myself, you know, for having lost precious time that I didn't need to lose, uh, that I chose to lose and that I would never do that again, you know? And so for me, the grief wasn't just about, or healing wasn't just about getting over, and I'm using air quotes because there is no getting over, you know? But it was about learning the lessons from just what I never want to repeat again. You know, if it's like if I'm blessed enough to ever find that kind of love again, I will never take it for granted, you know?

• 59:55Speaker 03

  And, and I think that's part of the healing is that understanding what is really important, what's important to us, what's important in making us happy and making us feel satisfied. Uh, that things can change, but that we should always, always, always appreciate, you know, the, the greatest gifts that were given. And I, I will never forget that.

• 1:00:18Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for that. I, um.

• 1:00:22Tim Ferriss?

  That also hits home for me in a few ways. Fortunately, I have suffered the loss of family members and loved ones and best friends, but never a partner like that. But the two things that have historically been, I'm getting better, but historically been very big challenges for me are A, forgiving myself for anything, and B, running maybe a little too hot in the anger department.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  (laughing)

• 1:00:58Tim Ferriss?

  And, yeah, so what I'd love to hear from you, because you're such a high-functioning individual, but you mentioned, you know, the sort of letting go, at least this is what I heard, sort of letting go of anger, maybe as an emotion and forgiving yourself. What has helped you to modulate those two things? Sort of beating yourself up and/or just the anger piece? Because I think what I see very often, certainly in myself, is that, and I'm not saying this is you, I don't want to project, but like people who are very kind of aggressive, ask

• 1:01:42Tim Ferriss?

  for forgiveness, not for permission, go-getter types, very frequently also have some collateral damage from both of those things, right?

• 1:01:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Tim Ferriss?

  So I've tried to work, no, I haven't tried. I have worked very hard on trying to recognize that those aren't always the best fuels and ways to approach things. But how is your thinking about, say, anger or self-forgiveness change? What have you found helpful? Do you have any exercises or phrases that you revisit? Anything like that?

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  Well, it's interesting, because you're right. You know, I would agree that, you know, folks who are high-functioning in this way run hot in a lot of different ways, you know? And for me, anger is one that I think before, you know, I kind of see myself like before Peter died and after Peter died, you know? And before he died, I was definitely quick to... Anger, you know, impatient, um, you know,

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  unforgiving is probably a good word, you know. Right.

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  Always demanding, you know, I expected everything. Uh, and I expected everything to go well, too, by the way. Because it had, quite frankly, I mean, you know, things had been tough sometimes. And as we talked about the phoenix and the fire and all that stuff. Uh, but I always found a way through. And so I was, and maybe arrogant is a good word, too. You know, um, all of those words to describe the way that I was. And then something totally uncontrollable, you know, an event so catastrophic and traumatic that was outside of my control, happened. And all of a sudden, it just knocked me down a peg or two. You know, maybe three or four. And coming back from that has been all of this learning, you know,

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  about not, um, running so hot all the time. Because really, it's useless. Yeah. You could still get a lot of things done without having to leave so much chaos in your wake. For sure. That, you know, there is an opportunity, um, I'm not saying never get angry. I still get angry, you know, things happen, I'm still impatient. You know, I want things to happen like today, all the time. But knowing that I can't damage others based on my anger. You know, because then you have to fix that. And you have to go back and, you know, correct those things. And sometimes that's more difficult to do than if you hadn't made the mistake in the first place. For sure.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  You know, so understanding that, you know, not everything gets done through anger and, you know, like the fire and the screaming. But that you can get a lot more done when you're not that way. You know, when you're peaceful. Um, and again, not that like I don't get angry, but it's just that I unwind it much easier now. And you know what? Some of those like simple things really do help. It may, it might sound corny, but the walking away, the counting to five, the like thinking, okay, let me think about this a different way. Like, how else can I get this done? You know, like the conversation with myself really, really, really, really, really helps. Like the pause, you know, cause like I'm one of those, like I, it's like, I ta- it actually does take me a long time to get angry.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  But once I, once I get angry, the fuse is lit and boom, I'm like firecracker, right?

• 1:05:10Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  Uh, so learning to kind of slow myself when I can feel that happening, the walking away is really important. Um, and those things have really helped to also make me reconsider. You know, cause when you do take time off, you walk away for a second. Oh, let me give you a good example. It's like, you know, the fireback email. Ooh, man, I've had to like learn to not do that. You know, it's like, oh, cause man, I used to be dangerous with that thing, you know? It's like, I would get something that would just piss me off and then here it go. Right? And then send.

• 1:05:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Speaker 03

  And it usually caused a lot of damage. And now, um, you know, getting things like that, I stop. Maybe I'll write something, but I definitely don't send it. You know, reread it, reread it again, you know? Sometimes pray, I'm like, Lord, just save them from themselves because I'm about to murder all of them, okay?

• 1:06:11Speaker 03

  These words are fire, you know? But then being able to, you know, unwind that and think about different ways to approach it. Doing it with the honey instead of the rimstone is, is such a better option.

• 1:06:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, for sure. Yeah, one, uh, one question that I found really helpful for me personally because man, have I created some messes, especially if I just haven't had enough to eat and then, uh, I remember my, my, uh, effectively my chief marketing officer on a few occasions has been. He sent me texts and it would be something like, wow, you guys just came out throwing haymakers, huh? Yeah, great. Now I have to spend the rest of the week doing political damage control because I just didn't have enough peanut butter in the morning or whatever. It's so stupid. But the question that I found so helpful for me is, what else might this mean? Right?

• 1:07:08Tim Ferriss?

  And because particularly with email, like you might read it like you're doing Disney voiceovers in your head, but you're using like the supervillain from Lion King or something as the voice for the person who sent you this email. And in fact, they were just like, no, very matter of fact, like smile on the face, this is this. But you hear this horrible insinuation and then the gloves come off and it's a big mess. So I, but another question is related to, well, an answer that you've given before. This was, a journalist asked you what advice you would give your younger self. And you can feel free to modify this and maybe add to it.

• 1:07:53Tim Ferriss?

  But what caught my eye was don't make pro and con lists. And I was, I was hoping you could elaborate on that and maybe give us an example or two from your experience.

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, okay, so that has more to do with my feeling, and it's very personal, you know, to me. It doesn't work for everybody, but what I have found in my experience is that when I make pro and con lists, it's usually because I talk myself out of a good idea or talk myself into a really bad one.

• 1:08:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right, right.

• 1:08:30Speaker 03

  That my spirit knew, right, that my spirit knew what to do, but my head was like, girl, you better make sure that's right, you know? And that internal dialogue, because, you know, I'm thinking, well, you know what, academically and logically, let's think through this, you know? But my spirit always knew what to do. And more often than not, actually, no, I mean, every single time that I did not listen to what my spirit was telling me, it was wrong, even if I rationalized to myself. Whether it was a job to take, or a relationship, or a business deal, every single time. And I think the other thing is that for me, you know, learning to trust that, and call whatever you want,

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  spirit, gut, inner voice, you know, there are lots of words for it. Um, learning to trust that has been a real process. I'm still doing it now. You know, where it's like, I don't have to have a reason, you know? It's like, okay, brain, just shut off. Like, I don't have to rationalize this. It doesn't have to make logical sense. I just don't like that, and I'm not gonna do it. You know? Um, and by the way, again and again and again and again and again, I have proven myself correct, that later on, I find out, like, oh, that person was a total ass.

• 1:09:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:09:43Speaker 03

  You know, or like, that job, somebody else took it, and mm, look at them now. You know, like, there have been time and time and time and time again when I've been right, and I couldn't have explained it to myself or anyone else. And so the pro and con list has gone by the wayside. I just don't do that anymore. I try very much to then just listen to my spirit, you know, instead. So it's like, if I, if, if ever the time that it's like, oh, I'm gonna go into a quiet, you know, because when you write the pro and con list, right, you go into a quiet space, you think about the issue, maybe you write it down, then you start writing your list. For me, instead of, instead of doing all of that, I really do go and, you know, get into my quiet space, and then just concentrate. What do I want to do? What does this feel like?

• 1:10:28Speaker 03

  Am I happy about this? You know, does it make, does it bring me joy? Like, those type of questions. Usually, I can answer those.

• 1:10:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, this is so important. I really like the wording you used also, which I'm, I'm sure I'm gonna mangle right off the bat, but what, what you said about using, whenever you use a pro and con list, you're either talking your way out of a good idea or into a bad idea. It's so true. I mean, it's, it's, uh, I, and I remember, this was a long time ago, more than 10 years ago, but I was dating this girl. We dated for about two years, and I was agonizing over this pro and con list for a potential deal, and looking at the deal structure and the partnership, and this project that I really wanted to do or thought I wanted to do. And this just went on for weeks, right, going negotiating or every little deal point and so on.

• 1:11:19Tim Ferriss?

  And eventually she was not, uh, she was not involved in any negotiations or deal structuring like this. But nonetheless, at dinner one night, she goes, do you trust this guy or not? And I was like, uh, no. And she's like, well, then don't do the deal. And I was like, good advice.

• 1:11:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:11:38Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, just, just, and again, I, I, to reiterate, this is not necessarily representative of everyone in the world. Certainly, and there are times when you have to use data to make good decisions. But whenever I have had that little spider sense tingling or that little gut warning and I've ignored it. 100% of the time, and just like you caught yourself, you know, I'm inclined to hedge it and say, no, like many times, no. 100% of the time it has ended up being correct and it would have saved me from a lot of, of pain. And, um,

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:12:16Tim Ferriss?

  What I've noticed for my, for myself too, is that it's taken a lot of practice to start to listen to that. And furthermore, uh, I've had for decades, the habit, which is not constructive of over caffeinating and using a lot of caffeine. And what I've found is that that is like hitting mute on, for me, my ability to listen to that intuition or that gut feel, which is really based on thousands or millions of years of evolution. Like your body is trying to tell you something.

• 1:12:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:12:49Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, but if I, but if I over caffeinated it, it's, there's too much noise and the signal doesn't get through.

• 1:12:54Speaker 03

  That is so interesting.

• 1:12:57Tim Ferriss?

  So the, I'd love to talk to you about career advice. Uh, and I, to hear about maybe bad, best advice or worst advice that you've received from whether it's mentors or colleagues. And we can, we can kick it off with, with one that I read about, which, uh, maybe you can fact check or clarify, but a well-intentioned female executive told you to never wear red lipstick or red nail polish. Is that accurate? Or am I getting that from somewhere?

• 1:13:30Speaker 03

  No, that was a hundred percent accurate.

• 1:13:32Tim Ferriss?

  All right, what was the rationale there? And why, why did it end up not being good advice?

• 1:13:38Speaker 03

  You know what's interesting is that I feel like this is, we can put this in the category of when people have good intentions. You know, like you were talking about reading it in the Disney character voice, you know? Whereas like she was, she was reading it, or she was saying it in a very nice way, I'm sure. She was doing it to help me, but it was really, uh, came across sinister. And for me, I really did listen to it. I accepted it. I tried to implement that. The reason why I say it's the worst advice I ever received was that it was damaging to me. One, well, because she was totally wrong. That's the first thing.

• 1:14:17Speaker 03

  But also that there was this, um, psychological sort of reaction to that, right? Which meant that red to me were my, is, is one of my favorite colors. I do wear red lipstick, red nail polish, and it does make me feel bold. Back to that word again.

• 1:14:37Speaker 03

  And I think sometimes I use it as armor. And what that did was that stripped me of my armor. You know, it stripped me of this idea that like I could be bold. It made me wonder whether or not I could show up as myself all the time. You know, that perhaps I was too bold and I was too loud and I was too this and I was too that. And that's the damage that it did. You know, and that's for me, when I look back, it's not about lipstick or nail polish really. But it was about trying to quiet this boldness and making me wonder whether or not I could appear as myself in any space, in any corporate space and be accepted.

• 1:15:12Speaker 03

  And so that was, that was terrible. Clearly I ditched that advice and for good. Uh, and, and definitely created my own rules. Um, but it was really tough, you know, because obviously I was, well, not obviously, but I did respect her. And she was more successful than I was and I wanted to be successful. And so when somebody who's successful tells you to do something, you try to do it, even when it damages you. You know?

• 1:15:37Tim Ferriss?

  How did, uh, let's, let's talk about.

• 1:15:42Tim Ferriss?

  Good advice. Who are people that you think of in your career as important mentors along the way, if anyone comes to mind? Is there anyone in particular who really helped you to maybe think differently or make better decisions to hone you as a human being or as a professional?

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, certainly, I could, you know, point to my early role models slash mentors, you know, my parents, obviously. When I started working, you know, Spike Lee, definitely, you know, and his boldness and his, what I would call like, not carelessness, but he really defied how people, you know, his work is his work, and he doesn't care about the criticism. You know, he's going to create the work that he knows should be seen. And that has certainly inspired me, you know, that sometimes critics are just people who can't see the world the way you see it. So who cares?

• 1:16:45Tim Ferriss?

  That is a great way to put it. Yes.

• 1:16:47Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:16:48Tim Ferriss?

  That is a great way to put it.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. And along the way, there have been different types of people who've come in and out, you know? It's so funny, because now when people are like, "Oh, I want you to be my mentor," you know, and I'm like, "But do you need me right now?" You know, like, I want to know from that. Like, "Do you need me right now, though?" You know, like, "You see me, but you might not need me." You know, you might need somebody else at this very moment. Because mentors are like friendships, you know? Some of them are long-lasting, some of them are first season, some of them are from far away. I've been inspired by a lot of people that I don't know. Kris Jenner, you know, Oprah, even though I've begun to know her recently, which is awesome. You know, Arianna Huffington,

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  who has a real impact, a significant impact on my life right now. But there have been lots of people along the way that I have felt, you know, drawn to because I want to not emulate them, but live more boldly or make different decisions based on things I've seen that they've been able to do.

• 1:17:55Tim Ferriss?

  What do you see in, just to take the last example, Ariana, what have you observed that is, or heard that has impressed you?

• 1:18:05Speaker 03

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:18:06Tim Ferriss?

  Because she's a fascinating woman. I've become friends with her over the last several years, along with her sister. But what's your experience been like?

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  You know what I've learned from her? It's a minute present she is. You know? When you're in a conversation with her, or hell, when you text her, she is so responsive. You know, when I'm in her presence and she is talking to me, I don't think that she's thinking about anything else, except whatever we're talking about. You know, it's a really, it's a really important quality, and one that I have now taken on, to be more present in conversations. You know, because you have your phone, or you're distracted, you're thinking about something else, you're like, you know, going on and on. Whether it's in the work environment, or in a casual environment, I'm trying to be more present, so that I

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  can really hone in on what people are saying, and how I'm responding, you know, to them. And it's been really, really fascinating to see her do that, and how much I appreciate it. So I know people would appreciate it when I do it. You know, it's a good lesson.

• 1:19:12Tim Ferriss?

  It's, you're so right. I've noticed just how dramatic the impact is when you're having, if you're having a conversation with Ariana, let's just say it's at a dinner that she's hosting, and she is a Jedi master of hosting such things. But let's say there are 20 people, when she's talking to you, even though many people might be vying for her attention, you feel like you're the only person in the room. And her eye contact is also just incredible. And I was just thinking, I never really revisited this, but when I think about what I remember from those conversations, I remember a lot of the detail of what we talked about.

• 1:19:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:19:55Tim Ferriss?

  But even though other people at the dinner were very impressive in various ways, they didn't have that same focus when we were talking. And I'm struggling right now to think of really, next to anything that we... Spoke about it. Yeah, yeah, she's really, she's very, very present. Yeah, it's extremely true.

• 1:20:14Speaker 03

  It's a very, it's a really great lesson, you know? Because I think also, you know, Maya Angelou said, you know, people rarely remember what you said, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. And I have learned that from Ariana too, just in living, that when I'm with her, I feel like she cares about me, you know, cares about what I have to say, is responsive to what I'm saying. I want people to feel that way when they interact with me. You know, I want them to feel like I care, because I do. And sometimes I think it just comes across wrong, because you're over here looking at, you know, the notification that just came on your phone. You didn't mean to look like you weren't paying attention, you know? Or like you're looking around the room when they're asking you a question. Uh, but to maintain that eye contact, be present in the conversation,

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  not trying to run off somewhere, you know? Um, makes people feel like you care, and I do. And so I want, I want to bring that across.

• 1:21:08Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I think it does come across, and I know we only have a little bit of time left, but I'd love to ask a few, just a few more questions.

• 1:21:18Tim Ferriss?

  And just as we're going through the, the chapters of your life thus far, I, I, I have to ask, how did you know that Uber was the right next move for you?

• 1:21:27Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:21:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  Man, you know, that's, it's like, if there was ever a temptation to write a pro and con list, it would have been, um, when I, when I was gonna take the job at Uber. That would have been the moment, you know, to write one. Um, but I still didn't do it. So I really came upon it because Ariana, um, I'd been talking to Ariana about, and, you know, this was shortly after Delete Uber. She's on the board and we were having tea at her apartment. And, um, I was talking to her about what I would do, you know, as a marketer. I was working at Apple, of course, and, um, she was really fascinated, you know, by what I was saying. And she suggested I talk to Travis Kank, who was the CEO at the time, about it. And, um, yeah, I was just like, oh, okay, well, I don't care, it's fine, you know?

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  Uh, and he happened to be in L.A., so she, you know, arranged for us to meet for an hour to talk about it. We ended up talking for eight hours, eight hours.

• 1:22:25Tim Ferriss?

  Oh my God.

• 1:22:26Speaker 03

  Eight hours, you know, just, and, and some of it was, you know, education, right? Me telling, you know, just being like, hey, no, you should really try this, da, da, da, you know? This is the thing to do. And then, but also like the human connection of, you know, really understanding what happened. Oh, um, why things happen and himself as a human being, you know? And there was just, they were just so, it was just a complex conversation. And I left that conversation thinking, man, they've got, they've got a job to do, you know, like, ooh, I hope they find somebody who could do it.

• 1:23:01Speaker 03

  And then I, I, in my, in my very comfortable Apple office, over the next few days, and I was like, shit, I have to go do it. Like, I have to go do it. I have to leave. I have to leave. I have to do it. You know, and it was, it was a combination of, you know, this idea, which of course now, so many people are talking about sexual harassment and, you know, diversity issues and discrimination, et cetera. And quite honestly, I just feel, I feel the real need to contribute to the solutions. You know, that I don't want to sit on the sidelines and wait for somebody else to fix it. You know, especially when it comes down to these more sensitive and what can be catastrophic challenges.

• 1:23:42Speaker 03

  This is not necessarily about saving a brand. This is about saving an ideal. You know, that I want our industry, I want my future, I want my daughter's future to be changed. I want it to be changed because of this moment. You know, I don't want us to be the same. And so, this is not to me. So when people say like, oh, are you gonna save the brand of Uber? I'm like, no, that's not what I'm here to do. You know, I'm here to save an ideal. I'm here to make sure that we never go backwards. And that we use this catalyst moment to propel us forward into a better community and a better society, and a better industry and better work environments. That's it. You know, so, and if the brand gets saved along the way, fantastic.

• 1:24:29Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I, I think you, for me, you, you highlight.

• 1:24:36Tim Ferriss?

  What's the right expression? The right expression might be proactive, constructive, dissent. Dissent isn't quite the right word, but if I look at the poll quote at the top of your chapter in Tribe of Mentors, which went completely nuts online when I put it up. "We spend far too much time complaining about the way things are and forget that we have the power to change anything and everything." And it reminds me of something that I was also told. I want to say it was Joseph Gordon Lovett, who's a really smart guy, which was, you know, it's very easy to say, it's very easy to say what you're against, but it's important to say what you're for.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:25:19Tim Ferriss?

  And there's a big difference, right? There's a very big difference between trying to build a better future versus trying to tear down what causes you some type of visceral negative reaction.

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:25:36Tim Ferriss?

  They're actually very different things. So how would you encourage people to think about this? I mean, there are a lot of hot-button issues. There are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but there's also a lot of complaining on the internet that, as far as I can tell, does very little to actually

• 1:25:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:25:55Tim Ferriss?

  fix things and repair things.

• 1:25:56Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:25:57Tim Ferriss?

  So what would you, how could we steer the ship in the right direction if that's possible? I mean, or how would you encourage people change their thinking so that they're more likely to build as opposed to just simply destroy and attack?

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  Right. You know, it's, wow, this is a, this is a big one.

• 1:26:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  You know? For me, well, first of all, I love that idea, you know, about encouraging versus sort of tearing down, right, or destroying. By the way, I am very much a fan of calling things out when we don't like it.

• 1:26:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:26:39Speaker 03

  You know, making noise about it. But I want us to go a step further. You know, it's not just about making the noise, but then how are we actively changing the set environment?

• 1:26:49Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:26:50Speaker 03

  You know, for me, that's, it's very much like, you know, yes, the quote that's in your book. Um, which again, by the way, thank you so much for asking me to participate. It was really, man, by the way, when I got it, I was like, holy crap, look how big this book is. It's amazing. You know, so many people in here, oh, man, it was like a party. It was amazing.

• 1:27:11Tim Ferriss?

  Well, thank you for being part of it.

• 1:27:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, really. But, um, I really, I really am enamored by the idea that we really can change anything at all. You know, and that each of us are responsible, responsible for the change. You know, I said it before, like even early on in my career, um, when we were, when people would talk about diversity numbers and the lack of women and this, so forth and so on. And I would say, but why are we looking to the CEO to change the numbers? You know, what about us? Like, if you're not in a position to hire, it's like, well, can I recommend, you know, someone in a job that I see open? Right?

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  When I am in a position to hire, can I hire from a diverse pool of candidates? You know, when I do have a seat at the table, can I implement procedures and processes to change the dynamics of how our corporation or our organization looks? You know, that we must, we must do that. You know, we have the power to do that. And that just sitting back and complaining about things is not, it doesn't help anything. And on the other side of it. You know, I really do think there's a lack of encouragement in general these days.

• 1:28:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:28:32Speaker 03

  You know, that when we see good things, we see great things, let's applaud the hell out of it.

• 1:28:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 1:28:38Speaker 03

  You know, let's scream from the rooftops when we see amazing things happening. Hell, I'm here for everybody gets a prize, you know, it's like if you see even a small thing, let's applaud it. Because I think that the, you know, the drumbeat and the noise over great things can drown out, you know, people who want to do bad or do badly. You know, that when we are in a position to celebrate the great things that are happening or the good things that are happening, we encourage more of it. And so I want to see us do that more. You know, I certainly do it. I do it myself. You know, I am always applauding. I applaud my friends, I applaud myself.

• 1:29:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:21Speaker 03

  Myself on the back all the time because I really do want to see more encouragement of each other and of humanity out here.

• 1:29:29Tim Ferriss?

  It's such an important point. I'm really glad you said that and

• 1:29:35Tim Ferriss?

  the positive reinforcement is really, really, really important. If you want to change one person's behavior or if you want to help catalyze a cultural shift, you can't just be smashing the dog on the head with a newspaper for everything. Like you, like there has to be some element of shaping the behavior you want with positive encouragement. And it's just like based, if you look at science, you look at evolution, you look at

• 1:30:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:30:04Tim Ferriss?

  Any, any sort of observable phenomenon that, that is a necessary ingredient. You can't just get it done by whacking someone on the head because then they'll just learn, they'll develop some type of learned hopelessness or opt out, right? Which you see quite a bit unfortunately right now is a lot of people opting out of these conversations completely. And but if you if if in addition to or instead of just getting upset, you also get motivated, right? And sort of be decide what you're for, not just what you're against. I mean, I do think, like you said, you can you can change a lot more than you would

• 1:30:44Tim Ferriss?

  expect. And for instance, we mentioned Arianna Huffington before. One of her favorite books is Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. And so she and I have talked about this because you can not only change external circumstances, right? But even if you change external circumstances in some respect, you you'll never be totally in control of everyone else's responses. But you can cultivate the ability in yourself to become more emotionally resilient, let's say, a little less hair trigger. And that helps you to be a more effective agent for change. Well, I want to let you get to your evening. This is this is so much fun for

• 1:31:27Tim Ferriss?

  me. Is there any ask, just with the all the people listening? Do you have any final words, suggestions, or an ask for the audience?

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  Man, that's a big one. Thank you so much for having me, by the way. This is this is so amazing. And it's been such a great conversation. You know, I feel like we could keep talking for hours.

• 1:31:52Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'll try to give TK a run for his money with our we'll have a nine hour conversation.

• 1:31:59Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly. Well, you know what I am, you know, as a great poet TLC would say, I ain't too proud to beg, you know, I'm not too proud to beg for support. You know, this is I am constantly in need of support, you know, that I think sometimes we see people achieving, and we think they have it all figured out. I have a lot of things figured out. But I do appreciate support. You know, I am inspired by people. I love to hear about the great things that people are doing. But I also like to be encouraged myself. And so if you see me in the world, or you see me on social media, I would appreciate

• 1:32:43Speaker 03

  a word of encouragement. And that's what I ask.

• 1:32:47Tim Ferriss?

  Here, here. Well, like, like your, uh, your moral support with the rolls in the mornings way back in the day. Today is the day.

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  Today is the day.

• 1:32:57Tim Ferriss?

  Today is, today is the day, and people can find you on Twitter, Instagram, at Badass Boz.

• 1:33:06Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:33:07Tim Ferriss?

  That's B-O-Z, and certainly can, uh, with, with encouragement and, uh, great interest, watch, uh, how you continue to build as the Chief Brand Officer over at Uber. And, uh, is there anywhere else that people can say hello, or should, uh, learn more about what you're up to?

• 1:33:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, just, uh, yeah, I'm pretty open on social media, so you'll find me there.

• 1:33:33Tim Ferriss?

  Engage, engage.

• 1:33:34Speaker 03

  Yes, being an executive, being a mommy, being a daughter, being a friend, all of the things.

• 1:33:41Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. This was so much fun for me, and I'm sure that my, my, my, my listeners will no doubt seek you out online. Um, and, uh, if there's anything I can do to help, please do let me know, but, but, uh, thank you so much for carving out, uh, a little bit of your very valuable time to have a conversation.

• 1:34:03Speaker 03

  I sincerely appreciate you. Today's the day.

• 1:34:08Tim Ferriss?

  Today is the day.

• 1:34:09Speaker 03

  I'll do it.

• 1:34:10Tim Ferriss?

  And for everybody listening, as usual, you can find show notes, links to everything we talked about on tim.blog/podcast, where you can find show notes for this episode and every other episode. And until next time, thank you for listening. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts

• 1:34:55Tim Ferriss?

  of weird shit that I've Somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.