198: Life is a WAR. Fighting for How You Live. Field Service Regulations FM 100-5 w/ Dave Berke.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:28 - Field Service Regulations FM 100-5 2:12:50 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 2:20:45 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 2:39:07 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 198 with David Burke and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, David. Good evening. And David is back on the podcast because Echo is, well, he's still on vacation. And we are continuing the thread that we did on the last podcast with Andrew Paul. The last podcast, we discussed a German field manual called Truppenführung, which means leading troops. And I mentioned the American version of that document.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  It's called Field Service Regulations FM 100 Tac 5. And the one, and this is a little bit, it's not that important, but I'm going to bring it up later. The one that we're going to talk about was published in 1941. So prior to the entry of us into World War II, and they plagiarized heavily from the Truppenführung. But there are enough differences in here that it does merit its own review. So we're going to look at it. We're going to explore leadership once again, Dave. Are you ready? I'm ready.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  All right, let's go to Field Service Regulations FM 100 Tac 5. There's actually a little intro section in here, and it goes like this. Preface.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  On 22 May 1941, the War Department published a new version of FM 105 Operations. This manual superseded a tentative 1939 version, which I actually have not seen. I'll have to dig that one up. The most recent official edition had been the Field Service Regulations dated 1923. The Army of 1941 desperately needed an up-to-date doctrinal guidance. The world was already engulfed in war, and the United States had begun to mobilize. Thus, the Army was eight times larger than it had been in 1939.

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  That's two years, 1939 to 1941. You want to talk, you know, you and I work with companies now and we're growing a lot. We're in a growth phase. Eight times bigger in two years. And we're not talking about a small organism. It's one thing to go from, you know, two people to 16. Hey, we're eight times bigger. But to go from whatever, a few hundred thousand to of, of, over a million, that's serious growth. So continuing, moreover, it had also embarked on a modernization program that affected virtually every facet of military activity. The addition, the 1941 edition of FM 100 Tac 5 encapsulates the state of army doctrine

• 3:00Jocko Willink?

  on the eve of Amer- of America's entry into World War II. The 1941 version of FM 100 Tac 5 has long been recognized as a classic piece of doctrine writing, remarkable for its clarity of concept and prose. Now, come on, folks. We can't give you that much credit. We just read the German version and we know that, we know where you're getting this from. So that's, that's a little bit of a bold statement there coming from, from this preface. It also has valuable historical, it is also a valuable historical artifact, preserving as it does the doctrinal thought of the army at a critical juncture in history.

• 3:38Jocko Willink?

  And this is signed by Christopher R. Gable, PhD, historian, Combat Studies Institute, US Army Command and General Staff College. Did you go to war college?

• 3:49Dave Berke?

  Nope. I, I went to Johns Hopkins instead.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, wait. What do they call you? Oh, that's right. Good deal, Dave.

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  Chuck. And what did you study there?

• 4:01Dave Berke?

  Uh, international public policy.

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  How long was it? How long was the school?

• 4:06Dave Berke?

  Uh, about 18 months. Uh, so I was on an academic fellowship. So I was basically civilian, uh, got a master's degree and started working on a second degree, uh, while I was there.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  What was the second degree that you started working on?

• 4:16Dave Berke?

  MBA.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  The policy, what were you doing?

• 4:22Dave Berke?

  Yeah, so really what that was about is, is the reason why the Marine Corps sent me to do that is to, when I, after that was going to go to the Joint Staff to help formulate how we, how we relate to other countries and the security that goes along with that and the relationships we have with other countries is actually pretty important. A lot of those lessons came from World War II. And, you know, this isolationist mindset didn't help us in the beginning and how to form policy that helps the country create security around the world, really.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  Who were the professors?

• 4:51Dave Berke?

  Probably the, the most prominent professor there was Elliot Cohen. He's now the dean at CICE, but he, he ran the, the Strategic Studies Department that I was there. And then John McLaughlin, who was the former acting director of the CIA. So some pretty amazing guys there, some pretty great access to some really smart folks that have spent their careers in international, international arena.

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's kind of epic.

• 5:14Dave Berke?

  Pretty legit. So no, I didn't go to war college.

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  Good deal, Dave, coming in hot. All right. Now, I will say that the Troop in Führung has a much better kickoff, much better kickoff than, than the, than this one, than the field right, field service regulations. But we're going to jump in. Here's where I'm going to pick it up. The, the, in fact, this, this one is so unepic, I'm not reading it. Well, now I kind of have to. It starts off with, with just kind of a blah, blah. Field service regulations, it's just...

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Here, here's what it says. Field FM 100 Tac 5 Field Service Regulations Operations is published for the information and guidance of all concerned. It contains the doctrines of leading troops in combat and tactics of the combined arms and constitutes the basis of instruction of all arms and services for field service. Okay, that's not bad. This is actually decent. While the fundamental doctrines of combat operations are neither numerous nor complex, their application is sometimes difficult. I think we call that simple, not easy.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  That is simple, not easy. Hundred percent. Knowledge of these doctrines and experience in the application provide all commanders a firm basis of action in a particular situation. So, let's think about this. This reminds me of what Mattis says. You know, Mattis is like, I'm not gonna get surprised on the battlefield because I've read something close to it. I've read something close to it, something I can relate to it. So, knowledge of these doctrines and experience in their application provide all commanders a firm basis for action in a particular situation. This knowledge and experience enable the commander to utilize the flexible organization with which he is provided to group his forces into task units most suitable for the accomplishment of his mission.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  Now, we get what that's saying. And it's pretty cool to say. It's also, it's also very verbose, right? Hey, you gotta task organize sometimes. You gotta have a flexible organization. Yes, definitely.

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  It goes on, and this is where we get, we start getting a little bit, a little bit of fire going here.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  Set rules and methods must be avoided. That is probably the last thing that someone would think about the military, right? Set rules and methods must be avoided. And I'll tell you, I actually think that's a little bit of a strong statement. Like, you actually have to have standard operating procedures. You have to have some rules in place. I think maybe that's the kind of statement where you're making it because the, the common practice is to follow set rules so strictly. And I'll give you another example. So, you know, we talk about humility all the time? We talk about humility all the time. Even though confidence is an equally important trait for a leader to have,

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  why aren't we running around telling people to be confident all the time? It's because 98% of the time, the issue is not people are, lack confidence. 98% of the time, it's that they lack humility. So that's why we end up talking about that all the time. Hey, you gotta be humble, you gotta be humble. Because who ends up in leadership positions? Right? Does somebody that's afraid to step up and isn't confident, they don't end up in leadership positions? So, over years, if we're dealing with the CEO of a company, or we're dealing with a, a unit commander in the military, Or a team leader in any organization, they got there for years of being confident. For sure. That's how they ended up there. So, and it worked for them. And that only exacerbates

• 8:59Jocko Willink?

  and, and magnifies their confidence, which is good. But when they get to a point where all of a sudden they start believing their own, their own hype, and that's where it becomes a problem. So 98% of the time, the problem that we're dealing with isn't a lack of, isn't a lack of confidence. It's a lack of humility. Now, where this changes is when we're dealing with it like a young junior officer that feels like they're insecure. They don't really know what they should do. And they need to say, they need, they need to have confidence, right? Yeah. And the confidence that they actually need is the confidence to say, hey, you know what, sergeant, or hey, you know what, foreman on a job site, I don't really know how to do this. Can you guide me through it? That's the only confidence I need. They don't know, know how to do the actual thing. Yeah.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  They just need to, they just need to have the confidence that they can say, I don't get it. Yeah. And it won't undermine their credibility as a leader to admit that they don't know what to do. No, doesn't undermine it at all. So what they're saying here is you've got these military folks that are always following the rules. That's kind of the, that's the lean. That's the tendency. The tendency is military guy, you got told to do something, you're gonna do it. So what they're saying is leaning, getting you pulling back the other direction a little bit harder to balance the, the dichotomy a little bit is set rules and methods must be avoided. And then it continues. They limit imagination and initiative, which are so important in the successful prosecution of war.

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  They provide the enemy a fixed pattern of operations, which he can more easily counter. Yeah, which he can exploit. Right? Yeah. So you're doing the same thing over and over again? Cool. Watch this. We'll be waiting for you. And, and, and now we get to the point where I was kind of like, well, What this, what this book starts off with is basically, you know, you know, when you get a legal document and it starts off with the definition of all the terms? That's what this starts off with. Theater of war comprises this. Theater of operations is that. Combat zone is this. Communication zone is that. And so it goes through a bunch of sort of tactical terms, which is, which is fine. I mean, they're necessary, necessary, but that's kind of where this thing starts off. Whereas the troop and fearing starts off with just the most legit intro.

• 11:10Jocko Willink?

  Here's, here's number one from the troop and for the conduct of war is an art depending upon free, creative activity scientifically grounded. It makes the highest demands on the personality. That's, that's how, that's how that one starts off. This one I'll read because these are both numbered the same way. That's how much they ripped it off. They're both kind of every single paragraph throughout is numbered. This one starts off with theater of war comprises those areas of land, sea and air, which are or may become directly involved in the conduct of war. Weak, yeah, weak. We didn't want that. That's not what we were looking for. So then finally in chapter two, it starts to step up a little bit.

• 11:53Jocko Willink?

  And you're going to start, this is where you're going to start hearing some of the same stuff. Little bit different, translated a little bit differently.

• 12:01Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. No one arm wins battles.

• 12:07Jocko Willink?

  The combined action of all arms and services is essential to success. The characteristics of each arm and service adapt it to the performance of its special function. The higher commander coordinates and directs the action of all, exploiting their powers to attain the ends sought. So we have to work together. We have to cover and move for each other. Important to remember, you're not going to win alone. It's not happening.

• 12:32Dave Berke?

  And that's also why they say there, there's no set answer for this. You don't know what arm or which component you have is going to be the one that you're going to use. And if I sat at an SOP, it says, in this situation, you do this every single time, you're going to lose every single time. Because there is no prescribed way to do it. There's just a framework and understanding how they work and the art is what do I do now?

• 12:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. This is also an interesting, if you break this down to a really granular level. And this is a question that has come up before to me. You've got a person that's naturally good at something, but they're really not naturally good at something else. What do you do? Well, according to this, what you do is you exploit their powers, right? You take advantage of what they're good at. Of course, this doesn't mean, you know, if I've got Dave Berke, who's really good at interacting relationships with a client, but you're horrible at paperwork. I don't assign you to be in charge of the paperwork and not let you talk to clients, right?

• 13:24Dave Berke?

  Sure, but I want to make you better.

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  No, I want to take advantage of what you're good at. I will still say, hey, Dave, man, you gotta.

• 13:33Dave Berke?

  You gotta get better at paperwork.

• 13:34Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get better at paperwork. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna have you running it, but you gotta get better at it. And you're like, cool. And over time, you do get better at it, but it's not, I'm not. And then I got someone else that's awesome at paperwork, but they're not good at communications. Well, I'm not gonna put them in the client-facing position. I'm gonna put them in the back room with a computer, but we are gonna work with them. We're gonna make them get up and, you know, talk to some clients so that we do build a more well-rounded team.

• 14:02Dave Berke?

  Yeah, for sure. You actually don't know when that person who is weak at this one thing might need to rely on that for organizational success. You can't, you can't ignore that.

• 14:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. In a SEAL platoon, I mean, every, okay, you've got your, you've got your corpsman, your medic. The corpsman obviously is the go-to guy who's carrying the med gear and is trained at an incredibly advanced level, but every single person knows how to put out a tourniquet, knows how to stop the bleeding, knows how to do an IV, knows how to do a needle down decompression. Like, we all get that training. We can make it happen.

• 14:31Dave Berke?

  Yep.

• 14:31Jocko Willink?

  Same thing with comms. Same thing with everyone. Everybody knows how to shoot that, that pig gun. Everybody in the squad, everyone in the platoon knows how to do that.

• 14:40Dave Berke?

  Everybody's gonna need to know how to program their radios.

• 14:42Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed. True statement. All right. Now, what it does now is it breaks down every sort of arm that we're talking about. We're talking about arms, the different, no one arm wins battles. It breaks down every arm. It breaks down cavalry, field artillery, coast artillery, air corps, engineer, signal corps, chemical warfare, because remember, this is coming off of World War I.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  I'm not going to cover all those, but I will look at infantry because it just says a couple things about infantry. The infantry is essentially an arm of close combat. Its primary mission in the attack is to close with the enemy and destroy or capture him. In defense, to hold its position and repel the hostile attack. Infantry fights by combining fire, movement, I think we call that cover move, and shock action. Sometimes people use words that I need to completely embed into my vocabulary. Shock action is one of those things. By fire, it inflicts losses on the enemy and neutralizes his combat power.

• 15:49Jocko Willink?

  By movement, it closes with the enemy and makes its fire more effective. By shock action, it completes the destruction of the enemy in close combat. Amen. Totally. Uh, then we got a little but here. Cause we all love infantry, but here we go. Infantry is capable of limited, independent action through the employment of its own weapons. Its offensive power decreases appreciably when its freedom to maneuver is limited or when it is confronted by an organized defensive position.

• 16:29Jocko Willink?

  That's why as much as I love infantry, you, you have to have the supporting arms. And when you capture the enemy in the combined arms dilemma, that is the glory of warfare. You know what was crazy? I don't remember when I first heard the term, the combined arms dilemma. And for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, it's when the enemy or when, when you are attacking the enemy from multiple different weapon systems and no matter what they do, they're trapped, they're in a dilemma. If they, if they move one direction, they're going to get hit with one type of weapon. If they move in another direction, they're going to get with another. If they go to ground and hide, then the infantry is going to move in. You're, you've got them in the combined arms dilemma.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  This is what it is, you know what it essentially, it's checkmate. Yeah. It's checkmate. That's exactly right. You can't go anywhere else. What's interesting is, and what was scary was in Ramadi, the enemy would trap coalition forces in the combined arms dilemma. So they would initiate.

• 17:32Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps by dropping mortars onto a little outstation. One, everyone, when you're getting mortared, what you have to do is you have to get overhead cover. So now when you get overhead cover, you're basically hiding. When you're hiding, then they come out with machine gun fire. They start shooting machine guns because they can expose themselves, they can start shooting machine guns. While the, and the machine guns, you can, you can shoulder and shoot a machine gun very rapidly. So while that's happening, now your heads, you're now you're essentially pinned down.

• 18:03Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, now they come out with the rockets because they take a little bit longer to aim. They're more, you know, an RPG takes a little bit more time to aim and you're more exposed. There's back blast to deal with, so it's a little bit harder for weapon to handle. So it takes a little bit more time, but when, when you're, you're getting cover fire from a machine gun, you got that time. So then in come the rockets. Now, while this is happening, here comes the vehicle borne IED.

• 18:26Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 18:27Jocko Willink?

  And, and now everyone's heads are down, explosions are going off, and while this is happening, a vehicle borne IED now closes in, makes it through the serpentine and, and blows up inside of one of these little outposts. It happened multiple times while we were in Ramadi and, and these little outposts, these little checkpoints, these little ECPs would be, in several cases, overrun.

• 18:54Dave Berke?

  Yeah. The enemy also evolved while we were there too, and we started to see them account for what they knew our normal reaction would be. We understand what a combined arms dilemma is, and the other thing that they did that made that situation so hard was they would interact with the civilians. So they knew our normal response, if you wanted to get on your heavy machine guns and lay down a base of fire, there was so much risk at injuring civilians that we had to account for, and they knew that. So they made our normal response to that so much more difficult, and they added that additional layer of complexity for us. So we had limited options and they took full advantage of that. And those, those V-bids, those fuel laden, you know, trash trucks and things like that. Those things that they did and watched them get better accounting for what they knew we

• 19:39Dave Berke?

  would do, made it even harder for us. And, and they look, they got good at that and it was really, really tough.

• 19:45Jocko Willink?

  And, and taking it, again, adaptation.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  If you recall, when, well, when I first got there, they would do one of those attacks at a time.

• 19:56Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  There was a couple of days where they did two, two or three of those attacks simultaneously in different parts of the city. Because then they knew, hey, they're going to overwhelm our casualty evacuation. They're going to overwhelm our fire support. They're going to overwhelm our QRF. So they were good.

• 20:11Dave Berke?

  Yeah, man.

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  They were good. The combined arms dilemma, it's, it's a positive thing when you, when you put somebody in it. It's a negative thing when it happens to you. By the way, just, I mean, it's worth noting that when you're doing jujitsu, you're looking for the same thing. You're looking to set up a triangle arm lock sweep combined arms dilemma. You've got three things. If they defend one, you're going to catch them in the other. You've got them in checkmate. That's what you're trying to do.

• 20:43Jocko Willink?

  All right. Now, after that, like I said, this whole next section, it just explains each one of the various arms that we have, you know, from, like I said, from cavalry to field artillery. And boy, was I happy in Ramadi when we were able to use field artillery. That was, that was awesome. I mean, it was awesome to, to tanks and field artillery. There's not too many people in modern warfare that get to do that.

• 21:16Dave Berke?

  Yeah, I got to control some artillery. I think it was like the two, two F A and they didn't, we didn't get to use them a lot. But man, they were so dialed in when we called for it. They were ready to go. Getting to use them was, was awesome because it was, it wasn't that common, but when we did, man, they were so dialed in.

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I remember the most, I remember they fired a ton of a loom. We were doing a big night operation. I think it was when we were pushing into like cop iron.

• 21:40Dave Berke?

  Yeah, Springfield, maybe something like that.

• 21:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, something like that. And they just, they just put up a loom for a solid 45 minutes. It was so epic.

• 21:49Jocko Willink?

  And it was because the, I mean, the Iraqi soldiers couldn't, didn't have night vision. So, hey, let's get them, let's get them to be able to see. So it covers that. It covers, it covers the, the, what do they call it? Coastal coast artillery corps. They cover the air corps, which, which is pretty short and we'll get into that later.

• 22:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, pre-World War II, air was not a huge element in warfare. In World War II, it was, in many, in many cases, you know, the biggest part of warfare. So some battles were almost pure warfare, were air warfare. I mean, a lot of those naval battles were, I don't know what percentage, but a massive percentage was air warfare. The Battle of Britain, the Battle of Britain was 100% air warfare. So, and, and we'll talk about some of the changes that happened in 1944 when they rewrote this thing. So then they talk about the Signal Corps, they talk about the chemical warfare. So they cover all those things and, and again, kind of lay out

• 22:54Jocko Willink?

  what they are and what's important about them.

• 22:59Jocko Willink?

  And then they finally get into Chapter Three, which is called Leadership.

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  And now they get, they get some credit right now because they're coming out strong, strong, maybe even stronger than our, our German friends over here in the Truppenküren. Opening line, Chapter Three, Leadership.

• 23:23Jocko Willink?

  Leadership is based on knowledge of men.

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  So, understanding human nature is what you have to do if you're going to be in a leadership position. That's what we're talking about. That's what we've been talking about. That's what we talk about all the time.

• 23:40Dave Berke?

  And that's not just leadership in war. That's leadership everywhere. That's what business, everything it is. That's exactly right. It's, it's, it's people. It's men.

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  That is,

• 23:51Jocko Willink?

  that's why when I went to college, you know, we were talking about your college where you studied policy, right?

• 24:01Jocko Willink?

  I studied men. I studied, and I did, and I did it because I was reading books. And I'll tell you, I've said this before, the guy that understands human nature, I think maybe better than anyone else, Shakespeare. As crazy as that sounds, you start diving into those books, he understood people. And there's a lot of lessons to be learned. At some point in my life, I'm gonna do every Shakespeare play. I'm gonna cover it all, because there's so many lessons in each one of those. We'll get there. All right, continues on.

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  And it's where we're going, still, we're still, we're still staying strong right now. Man is the fundamental instrument in war. Other instruments may change, but he remains relatively constant. Unless his behavior and elemental attributes are understood, gross mistakes will be made in planning operations and in troop leading.

• 25:05Jocko Willink?

  In training the individual soldier, the essential considerations are to integrate individuals into a group and establish for that group a high standard of military conduct and performance of duty without destroying the initiative of the individual.

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 25:27Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Jocko Willink?

  Is there much more to say?

• 25:28Dave Berke?

  That should just be read over and over again. And how hard the balance is for a leader to cultivate that and to allow that to happen, and how critical that is, because without either of those, you simply cannot be successful.

• 25:43Jocko Willink?

  I can't remember if it was Leif or JP at the muster, was telling a story about how they were watching, it was Leif. He was out watching, when he was the ops officer at a SEAL team, he was out watching the training, I was putting the guys through training. And all chaos was breaking loose, it was total mayhem, it was an urban environment. And one, there was no leadership happening, leaders were all just overwhelmed. And he sees me walk over to like this young, kind of pipe hitting E5, who I, I've been watching him, I've been tracking him, and I can see that he's, he's good. Like, he's a good, aggressive.

• 26:27Jocko Willink?

  He's a natural leader and I walk over to him and he's holding like a saw and I was like, "Bro," you know, and I'm like, "Bro, what's going on?" He's like, "We need to get out of here." And I was like, "Make it happen." And you can see his eyes, he's kind of questioning, "'cause you know, he's, I think he's a one cruise wonder." I'm like, "You make it happen." And he's like, "Okay," and just starts making the call. And that right there, at some point, his initiative as an individual had been beat down. And as soon as it was released into the wild, he took charge and made things happen. And so it is a hard balance, because you can't

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  have this dude just out there being rogue. And trust me, some of these young seals, you give them a little indication that they can get after it and they're gonna go to the end three. And I would see that happen too. You could get some kid that's so over the top

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  that they'll just start making, you know, trying to make everything happen themselves and they'll get out of control and that'll be bad. So, yes, this is what it is. Understanding behavior, understanding elemental attributes. Yeah, all right. And then it goes on. "War places a severe test on the physical endurance and moral stamina of the individual soldier. To perform his duties efficiently, he must not only be well-equipped and technically trained, but he must also be physically qualified to endure the hardships of field service and be constantly fortified by discipline based on the high ideals of military conduct."

• 28:08Jocko Willink?

  We salute you. You gotta, you gotta keep that. There was, you gotta keep that physical, the physical readiness. You have to have it.

• 28:19Dave Berke?

  Yeah, for sure. But in the same sentence, they just say the phrase, "The moral standard too." Like, it's, that's a really important thing. And it's crazy how these sentences, they're so succinct and so straightforward, but just how powerful that comment is. The physical fitness and the moral standard, you have to keep both of those. Just those two things.

• 28:39Jocko Willink?

  Yep. The moral stamina. So easy for that to break down.

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  Strong men inculcated with a proper sense of duty, a conscious pride in their unit, and a feeling of mutual obligation to their comrades in the group can dominate and demoralize, can dominate the demoralizing influences of battle far better than those imbued only with the fear of punishment or disgrace.

• 29:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a couple of things. I was, I was, I was on Theo Von's podcast yesterday, and we were talking about controlling your emotions, you know, he's an emotional guy, and he was saying, he doesn't, he was saying, he's hilarious, but he was saying, he doesn't have any emo, he doesn't have a very good emotional memory. So when something bad happens, like he does something, and he gets a bad result, and it's horrible, and then he'll make the same mistake, you know, a week later, because he just doesn't remember, and then he goes, oh, man, I'm so stupid. And I was talking about the fact that, I was trying to figure out, because I, I, I do consciously try and control my emotions, right? And I was trying to think of, where did that come from? Where do you start doing this? And the

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  answer is actually pretty straightforward. I remember, as I got more senior in the SEAL Teams, well, when I was junior, I remember this, I see a leader lose their temper, and think, that's not good, that's negative, that, that every person in our platoon right now is looking at this guy like he's an idiot, because they're acting that way. And then, as I got older, and got into leadership positions, I realized, oh, if I go negative, everyone's going negative. If I stay positive, everyone is staying positive. That's a big deal. That's where it comes from. So, then we get to this here, and this is so obvious.

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you know, while I was reading this, I could see your head just nodding in affirmation that, and this is, this is, this is where there's a There's like a split. I don't know if it's a split, but there's definitely a frasier of some kind, a fissure of some kind between people that think, hey, if I bark orders and people fear me, I guess it's that one. It's fear. Do they fear me or do they respect me?

• 31:04Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 31:04Jocko Willink?

  Do people fear me or do they love and respect me? You will get 1,000 times better leadership from people that love you and respect you than you will from people that are afraid of you.

• 31:14Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and that fear and intimidation, you get those short-term wins. You typically get the response, you want to say, hey, that worked out.

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  You get suckered in.

• 31:21Dave Berke?

  Yeah, that worked. I got a little tactical, little tactical victory. You and I talk about this all the time, the tactical versus strategic. And that could be addictive. I tell you to do something, you do it. Because you're afraid of the retaliation if you don't.

• 31:35Jocko Willink?

  If I give you any resistance, cool, yell at me.

• 31:38Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Jocko Willink?

  Get, browbeat me, browbeat me down, and then I'll submit to your orders because I just don't want to be browbeaten anymore. And I go and do what you told me to do. And you walk away going, see, that's right.

• 31:52Dave Berke?

  I won.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  That's how you lead.

• 31:53Dave Berke?

  Yeah, I won. That E5, that seal you're talking about, probably what happened is he made an aggressive decision. One of his leaders came back and crushed him for it.

• 32:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 32:02Dave Berke?

  And had you not been there, that E5 is thinking, I actually know what to do here to save the platoon, but I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to get crushed by that guy. And those, those teams get wiped out in training.

• 32:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:14Dave Berke?

  And all, yeah.

• 32:16Jocko Willink?

  So if you're, if you find yourself in a situation where you feel you need to escalate your emotions, you're wrong in 19 different ways.

• 32:26Dave Berke?

  We get that question working with the clients all the time. And I've gotten to a point now, my answer is straightforward. When people ask, oh, how do I control my emotions? And I'm like, well, do you want to win? Yeah, I'm like, then control your emotions. It's pretty much it because every time you don't, you lose.

• 32:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:42Dave Berke?

  And don't be a robot. We know that. But that idea of like losing your mind or losing control of yourself, the answer is always, hey, do you like winning? Good, stop doing that and you'll win more.

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  Check, continuing. In spite of the advances in technology, the worth of the individual man is still decisive. The open order of combat accentuates his importance. Every individual must be trained to exploit a situation with energy and boldness, and must be imbued with the idea that success will depend upon his initiative and action. Is there any more empowerment that a human being needs than that right there?

• 33:25Dave Berke?

  Every individual.

• 33:28Jocko Willink?

  Every individual must be trained to exploit a situation with energy and boldness, and must be imbued with the idea that success will depend upon his initiative and action. Again, going back to the muster, where JP told the story of how I was like, listen, everyone's gonna be relying on you. And he was like, dang. And then I came up on the stage afterwards and I said, what JP doesn't know is I told that to everyone. I told that to everyone. That's what I was doing was this right here. Everyone is gonna be counting you, and it's the truth. It's the truth because if we're in a horrible situation and we need fire support, it's the radioman that's gonna save us. If we're in a firefight and we need to maneuver, it's the machine gunners that are gonna save us.

• 34:13Jocko Willink?

  If someone gets wounded, it's the corpsman that's gonna save us. If there's a decision that needs to be made, it's the leaders that are gonna save us. If we're dealing with the IED threat, it's the EOD guys that are gonna save us. Everyone is that person. And everyone has to be imbued with the idea that success will depend upon his initiative and action.

• 34:32Dave Berke?

  We were talking about the 1TAC 3 a couple of months ago, and I'm paraphrasing, but there's a line on there that's like, every single person on your team is critical, and even the most junior person has the ability to destroy your entire plan. You know, something along those lines.

• 34:48Jocko Willink?

  That was Clausewitz right there. That was a Clausewitz quote from inside the 1-3.

• 34:52Dave Berke?

  For sure.

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So they can win, or they can lose. All right, continuing. The dispersion of troops in battle caused by the influence of modern weapons makes control more difficult. Cohesion within a unit is promoted by good leadership, discipline, pride in the accomplishments and reputation of the unit, and mutual confidence and comradeship among its members.

• 35:18Jocko Willink?

  We're not going to be around each other. It's not happening. Yeah. You, you, you're on your own out there.

• 35:26Jocko Willink?

  Leading troops in combat regardless of the echelon of command calls for cool and thoughtful leaders with a strong feeling of great responsibility imposed upon them. Extreme ownership. Every level. Detach. Cool. They must be resolute and self-reliant in their decisions. Energetic and insistent in execution. And unperturbed by the fluctuations of combat.

• 35:57Jocko Willink?

  Ah, yes. Ah, who was I talking to? I was talking to someone lately and they're like, do you get spun up about anything? And I'm like, nope. What am I going to get spun up about? Nothing. Yeah. Things are going to go bad. Yep. Things are going to go great. Yep. That's the way it's going to be.

• 36:22Jocko Willink?

  Troops are strongly influenced by the example and conduct of their leaders. Again, that's the conversation I had with, with Theo yesterday. A leader must have superior knowledge. That's why we study. That's why you read. You know, it's funny because Andrew Paul was reading this thing with Andrew Paul and he's like, it's just ridiculous. This is Andrew Paul talking. It's ridiculous that I didn't read this when I was a young lieutenant in the SEAL Teams. And we went through the whole conversation about you talking about getting a stack of manuals at the basic school. Like, hey, I'm going to read them because I have to. I'm going to memorize whatever words are in there that I think I'm going to get tested on. But that's not what we're doing. That's not knowledge. This is knowledge.

• 37:07Jocko Willink?

  So a leader must have superior knowledge, willpower. Self-confidence, initiative, and disregard of self. There you go. A leader must have superior knowledge, willpower, self-confidence, initiative, and disregard of self. I like how they had to throw that in there. They had to throw that in there. You know what that offsets? That offsets self-confidence. It offsets willpower. It offsets superior knowledge. Because disregard of self is humility, right? Hey, that's what it is. I'm not important. I don't know everything. I'm not overconfident. Continuing.

• 37:49Jocko Willink?

  Any show of fear or unwillingness to share danger is fatal to leadership. On the other hand, a bold and determined leader will carry his troops with him no matter how difficult the enterprise. Mutual confidence between the leader and his men is the surest basis of discipline. Now, they use trust in the Truppenführung. They use the word trust. Same type of sentence, but mutual confidence. And again, you know, I'm not down there when Leif is a platoon commander inspecting his weapons once a day to make sure that they're being cleaned. He knows me. I know him. He trusts me.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  I trust him. That's the best form of discipline. Not imposed discipline, but mutual confidence.

• 38:40Dave Berke?

  That's the accountability you talked about too. It's like, hey, the accountability is the recognition of this needs to happen. And you know that about me because our relationship is strong enough for you to not have to wonder if this is important. And it just gets done because you know it needs to get done.

• 38:57Jocko Willink?

  To gain this confidence, the leader must find a way to the hearts of his men. Here we go. Isn't that kind of crazy? Here we are, we're talking about military operation. We're talking 1941.

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  1941, depression is going on. People are starving in America. And we talk about how soft things are now. Well, guess what? Here we are 1941 and we're talking about to gain confidence, the leader must find the way to the hearts of his men. This he will do by acquiring an understanding of their thoughts and feelings and by showing a constant concern for their comfort and welfare. And as one of my heroes, General Mukuyama said, "You gotta care about your men." You gotta care about your men. How do they say it here? Show a constant concern for their welfare,

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  comfort and welfare. Yeah, what does that mean? You gotta care about your men.

• 39:58Dave Berke?

  Yeah, for the people listening too, this is not some sort of robotic action to you. Actually have to care about your men. This is, this is, the authenticity of this is probably more critical than anything else because what your men will figure out, if it's not real, they'll see through that immediately.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  I got a good idea. If you don't care about your men, if you don't care about your troops, if you don't care about your people, you shouldn't be in the leadership position.

• 40:25Dave Berke?

  Right.

• 40:25Jocko Willink?

  How's that? Leave. Go and be a solo entrepreneur or be by yourself.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  A good commander avoids subjecting his troops to useless hardships. He guards against dissipating their combat strength and inconsequential actions or harassing them through faulty staff management. So yeah, can you, can you go, I discipline, training, train hard, train how you fight, all those things. Can you do that too much? Yes, you can. He keeps in close touch with all subordinate units by means of personal visits and observation. It is essential that he know from personal contact, the mental, moral and physical state of his troops, the conditions with which they are confronted, their accomplishments, their desires, their needs. Know your people.

• 41:23Jocko Willink?

  The commander should promptly extend recognition for services well done. Lend help where help is needed and give encouragement in adversity.

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  Considerate to those whom he commands, he must be faithful and loyal to those who command him. A commander must live with his troops and share their dangers and privations as well as their joys and sorrows. By personal observation and experience, he will then be able to judge their needs and combat value. A commander who unnecessarily taxes the endurance of his troops will only penalize himself. The proper expenditure of combat strength in proportion to the objective to be attained. When necessary to the execution of the mission, the commander requires and receives from his unit the complete measure of sacrifice.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  We can sum all that up actually in by saying, and this is what we say with them, you gotta build relationships.

• 42:21Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and that gets back to the, to the, to the comment that was made earlier is when you violate these things, when you don't do these things for your, your men or your people, you certainly hurt them, but you actually are hurting yourself. You are, you are actually going to be the loser in the end of all this because you're not, not doing the right things. And, and something that people should understand too is when they talk about all these different needs and everybody on your team is different too. This isn't just some blanket, I have a platoon of 25 or a company of 50. Every person's needs are going to be different and you as a leader actually need to know individually what all those are.

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and what I thought you were gonna say, that's a great point. I thought you were gonna say, when you said everybody, I said, oh, I know where he's going with this. When, when you're doing these little maneuvers to take care of yourself, everybody notices it 100%. And not only that, not only do they see it, but they think that you think that they're stupid and you don't notice what's happening.

• 43:19Dave Berke?

  Yep.

• 43:20Jocko Willink?

  And you look like the biggest idiot in the world. So you make these little maneuvers, you, you, you, you know, you have that little, that little space heater, right? You have that little heater in your room when everyone else is freezing. They know that. Yeah. They know that. You set up your, you're in a logger site and it's raining. And you go into the old spot where you're under the protection of the whatever and all of a sudden you're drying. Everyone else is wet and you think no one notices that? They notice it 100% and they actually are looking at you thinking, oh, you think we don't see you?

• 44:02Jocko Willink?

  You, you take, you take not just one hit for being all warm and cozy. You take two hits for being warm and cozy and for letting everyone know that you think they're a bunch of idiots. You think you're smart, you're an idiot. Yeah. When you do that. Everybody sees it.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  Everybody sees it. Everybody sees it. Oh, I was, we had to do security on. We would capture guys, my first deployment to Iraq, we would capture guys and then we had to, we, we held them in detention ourselves. We like had our own little detention facility and this is just the first example that I thought of. So we would have to stand watch, you know, which sucks, you know, it's whatever. And the, in my mind, the worst watch to take, I think it was like, it was a two hour watch and I thought two to four, right? Zero two hundred to zero four hundred. That's where, you know, you gotta wake up in the middle of the night.

• 45:01Jocko Willink?

  It takes you 20 minutes to get there. You're all, and then you get back and you get to sleep for another hour before you gotta wake up. So two to four is the worst, worst possible watch. And I remember telling my assistant platoon commander, I'm like, hey, right on, we're taking zero two to zero four. And he's like, really? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, check. He knew exactly why. Cause if I'm gonna be asking everyone else to stay awake or get up early or whatever, we're taking the worst possible one. Yeah. And, you know, you don't need to say anything about that. And no one says, hey, thanks. No one says that to you, but I'll tell you what, if you take the eight to 10 watch. So you can go do your watch, wind down, go back and sleep like a normal human being. Every single person, every single person will take note of that. Yep.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  And they'll, they'll log it down in their little log, their little mental logbook of your, of your leadership capabilities.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  So don't be an idiot. Everyone's watching.

• 45:59Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and you can become that guy.

• 46:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 46:02Dave Berke?

  If you do it enough, you'll become that guy.

• 46:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:04Dave Berke?

  And then even when you figure it out and you start to try to do the right thing, if you've been that guy for so long, they'll just write it like, oh, you're just trying to do the right and and you can't even dig out of that hole. You gotta, you gotta be careful. You gotta stay out of that hole from the very beginning.

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, if you dig yourself in that hole, then you gotta start making like real sacrifices.

• 46:23Dave Berke?

  And it takes a long time, yeah.

• 46:24Jocko Willink?

  Listen, don't worry about watch. I got it all night tonight. I'm just gonna suck it up. Okay, you know, he's doing, taking one for the team a little bit. And you're gonna have to do that like fourteen more times before you reach level. So, yeah, if you think no one's noticing that, they're noticing. Next, a spirit of unselfish cooperation with their fellows is to be fostered among officers and men. The strong and the capable must encourage and lead the weak and less experienced. On such a foundation, a feeling of true comradeship will be, become firmly established. And the full combat value of the troops will be made available to the higher commander.

• 47:03Jocko Willink?

  Both, both of these, the Truppenführung and this, both talk about how the strong have to help the weak. It's, it's an interesting concept. Because it's very easy to get the attitude of like, hey, that guy's sucks.

• 47:19Dave Berke?

  He's a non-hatter.

• 47:19Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not gonna help him.

• 47:20Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Jocko Willink?

  It's really easy to take that attitude. And if you have that attitude, I remember the officer candidate school.

• 47:27Jocko Willink?

  There was some complaining to my drill instructor. Who is an outstanding, obviously an outstanding Marine. You know, it was like, I think we got to write little notes to him. Like little, little comments, you know what I mean? And he got a comment that was like, you know, some of these people just shouldn't be here. And he came out and said, hey, should we, let's say, you know what? I agree with you. We're gonna get rid of the bottom ten percent. And someone's like, hey, people like, yeah. And then he goes, and then you know what we're gonna have? A new bottom ten percent. And then a new bottom ten percent. And then a new bottom ten percent. And then the only person that's gonna graduate from officer candidate school is Jaco.

• 48:07Jocko Willink?

  It's like, that's what, that's what it turns out to, right? So what you have to do, and what he was trying to say to us was, hey, what you need to do, your, your whole military career, you're gonna have people that need help. You freaking help them.

• 48:21Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and it also feeds this myth that, that you can just fire your way to success. I just get rid of these guys and we'd be so good to go if I could just get rid of these guys. Like, come on. And, and business will say it all the time. We ask people, hey, what, what are the people like in your company? And most people are hardworking and motivated and they care and they try. And so, so what do those people need if they're struggling? They need help. That's what they need more than anything else. Does some people gotta go? Yes, there are some people that gotta go. But we're just gonna cycle through 10% all the time. Come on, man.

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The combat value of a unit is determined in great measure by the, by the soldierly qualities of its leaders and members and its will to fight. Outward marks of this combat value will be found in, in the setup and appearance of the men, in the conditioned care and maintenance of the weapons and equipment, and in the readiness of the unit for action.

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  Superior combat value will offset numerical inferiority. Superior leadership combined with superior combat value of troops constitutes a reliable basis for success in battle.

• 49:30Jocko Willink?

  Go, you were writing. I know you must have something important to say.

• 49:33Dave Berke?

  Well, I was actually thinking about something that you had already said. I was gonna save it for later, but it, it occurred to me as you were talking about that previous comment about, these are attributes, we're talking about leaders in combat and war, and we're always making the connection to business and things like that. Here's the thing about that last comment about helping the weak. You can teach this at any age. Go read the Warrior Kid Code. These are lessons that your five, six, seven-year-old can start to learn now. And- To understand that the best thing you can do for the weak person in your class, or the person struggling on your soccer team, or... These aren't adult lessons. And if you're a leader out there and you've got kids, you can start to instill this right now.

• 50:17Dave Berke?

  And that lesson is not just relevant for combat, or for your platoon, or even for your company. It's relevant for everybody at every age. And if you teach it now, think about the success your kids will have in the long run you do that. Anyway, just making that connection.

• 50:31Jocko Willink?

  And, yeah, so, the warrior kid, let me see what number it is.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  The bottom line is,

• 50:44Jocko Willink?

  and this is where it gets a little bit, um...

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  The warrior kid, number five. The warrior kid treats people with respect and helps out other people whenever possible. This is where, this is where everything is beautiful in the universe. Everything is beautiful in the universe, because when you help other people, you get better. Your team gets better, but you get better. Every time you teach something, you get better at it. It's just the way it works. So, there's like that mutual benefit. And so, the idea that, hey, I'm just gonna get rid of someone that's weak, instead of helping them, wrong.

• 51:19Dave Berke?

  The warrior kid trains hard, exercises, and eats right to be strong and healthy. And he knows how to fight, so he can stand up to bullies and protect the weak. I mean, that's something for your kids, right there. That is the same exact thing they're saying. You have to protect the weak. And it helps you when you do that.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Jocko Willink?

  Continuing. A poorly trained unit is likely to fail in a critical moment due to demoralizing impressions caused by unexpected events in combat. This is particularly true in the first engagements of a unit. Therefore, training and discipline are of great importance.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  Every leader must take energetic action against indiscipline, panic, pillage, and other disruptive forces. Discipline is the main cohesive force that binds the member, the members of a unit. Discipline is the main cohesive force that binds. You know, it was interesting. I think we were covering S L A Marshall's Men Under Fire. And he's talking about when, when units got routed and when, when like mayhem broke loose and people started running away. They have documented cases where, you know, the, the platoon leader up in the front line goes, hey, runner, go back and tell headquarters, we need more ammunition. He goes, cool, got it. Gets up and starts running.

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  Someone sees him's run, him running and goes, oh dang, we're running. And so someone else gets up and, and then the next thing you know, everyone is running from one person, just, just seeing it happen. And, and once again, that's what, that's what, uh, talking with Theo yesterday, the way you act as a leader, you gotta put, you gotta, you gotta act correctly. If you start to panic, if you start to freak out, if you start to lose your temper, if you start to lose your mind, everyone else is going to do the same thing. If you run away, everyone's going to do the same. If you go forward, everyone's going to follow you. And yes, discipline is the main cohesive force that binds the members of a unit together. A wise and capable commander will see that the men assigned to the competent groups

• 53:22Jocko Willink?

  of his unit are compatible and that the composition of the groups is changed as little as possible. All right. So I'll read that one more time. A wise and capable commander will see that the men assigned to the competent, to the component groups of his unit are compatible, right? So they can interoperate, they can, they can change around. And that the compositions of his grouped, groups is changed as little as possible. So when you have little subunits, keep them together.

• 53:55Jocko Willink?

  Keep them together. That's they get to know each other, they get to understand each other, they can read each other. And that's the way you need to work. You don't, they don't need to freaking redevelop a relationship, they already have it. When, uh, when task unit bruiser went through our urban training. And we, we had a bunch of strap hangers with us, wasn't really strap hangers, we had a, a bunch of other people. EOD people, some other, we probably had an additional like 15 people with our task unit. And so the, the initial reaction from, from Leif and Seth was make, put those guys, you know, that's two, you know, that's two other squads.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's, we, we don't want them in our platoon. And I was like, uh, no, what we're going to do is we're going to take one or two of them and put them in each one of our fire teams and ma- make them part of our unit. And, you know, they objected, but what, what happens? What happens is that those people get individually, it's very easy for a four or five man fire team to absorb one or two people.

• 55:04Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Hey, cool. What's your name? Fred? Cool. Right on. You're good. Hey, I'm Bill. Let, let me know. Here's where I, where I'm at. Here's how we do our head count. Here's what we're looking for. Boom. Integration was almost immediate. Now we have, now when it was time to assault a building and we, we call them sections. Cause they weren't really fire teams. They were a little bit bigger now. So I called them sections. And which is, I stole from the Grom, which is the Polish special operations that I worked a ton with my first deployment to Baghdad. They called, they had sections of like six guys. I was like, cool. We're going to have sections now. Cause we're a little bit bigger than a fire team. Cool. And then it was like sections two, three, and four assault. Section one, hold fast and everyone knows what to do. And you've got little micro section leaders that are making things happen.

• 55:49Dave Berke?

  Yeah, that doesn't happen. You take the six new guys and give them their own section.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're, what, yeah, yeah. No, and then you take, then you have three of those, right? Which is probably what we would have had three sections of people just.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Randomly out there. By the way, and those people weren't even integrated as a unit. It wasn't like it was a separate platoon. If it was a full, another platoon of SEALs, that would have made some sense. Okay, cool. We got a full another platoon of SEALs. They have, they're broken into fire teams. Okay, cool. We get it. We can command that. But we have 16, 15, 20 random people that haven't been working together. Cool. Guess what? You're about to report to a leader in Task Unit Bruiser. This is Petty Officer Second Class Get Some.

• 56:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but that's so that's what you want to do. You want to, you want to keep your team together. Continuing. He will provide each group with a leader in whom its members have confidence. That's another thing, right? So now you got, you got the Task Unit Bruiser guys. Everyone knows that fire team leader. They don't have to meet Fred. That guy was at the jump team for eight years. He doesn't know what he's doing. No, it doesn't matter. You're not, Fred's on board with the program. He wants to win.

• 56:58Jocko Willink?

  He will so regulate the interior administration of the units that all groups perform the same amount of work and enjoy the same amount of leisure. He will see that demonstrated efficiency is promptly recognized and rewarded. He will set before all the high standard of military conduct and apply the same rules of discipline to all.

• 57:18Jocko Willink?

  Here's a good one. Good morale and a sense of unity in a command cannot be improvised.

• 57:25Jocko Willink?

  They must be thoroughly planned and systematically promoted. They are born of just and fair treatment. A constant concern for the soldier's welfare. Oh, you want to build morale? There you go. A constant concern for the soldier's welfare. Thorough training in basic duties, comradeship among men, and pride in self, organization, and country.

• 57:48Dave Berke?

  Morale is a byproduct of your leadership. Good leaders have units with good morale. Bad leaders don't. Period.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The Marine Corps does a damn good job of this one, don't they? I mean, and I mean, the military does in general, but damn, the Marine Corps is good at that. Cause when you're in the Marine Corps, you're in the Marine Corps. That's just the way it is.

• 58:13Jocko Willink?

  The establishment and maintenance of good morale are incumbent upon every commander and are the marks of good leadership, which is what you just said.

• 58:25Jocko Willink?

  And then we get to number 111. The first demand in war is decisive action. Commanders inspire confidence in their subordinates by their decisive conduct and their ability to gain material advantage over the enemy. A reputation for failure in a leader destroys morale. The morale of a unit is that of its leader.

• 58:53Jocko Willink?

  Again, that's what you just said. But hey, the first demand in war is decisive action. And again, I talked about this with Andrew Paul, and Andrew Paul gave a great example. You know, decisive action doesn't mean you just make the full commitment to a decision. He, he gave that example of, of looking at your Google Maps. You know, you gotta, you're, you're gotta walk through the city to a place and it's two miles away. And so you walk out of the hotel and you look at your Google Maps and you're, it, it, the, the arrow is just spinning.

• 59:24Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're not going anywhere. Cool. Start walking.

• 59:26Dave Berke?

  Take 10 steps.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  Take 10 steps, that thing will self-correct, cause, and now you'll know where you're supposed to be going. So that's, that's a decisive action. Sitting there, not doing anything, isn't getting you anywhere and the enemy's maneuvering on you, by the way.

• 59:38Dave Berke?

  Yeah. And that, that flip side you talked about is, hey, we want to get into this space. Let's buy three buildings. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. We actually, that, that is overly, that's way overly aggressive and actually isn't what you need. Yeah, that example was awesome.

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  A commander must bear in mind that physical unfitness will undermine his efficiency.

• 1:00:02Jocko Willink?

  And actually, surprisingly, I don't think this is in the Truppenführung at all. I don't think they talk about physical fitness in this much clarity. A commander must bear in mind that physical unfitness will undermine his efficiency. He owes it to the men under his command to conserve his own fitness. Neglect renders him unable to bring a normal mind to the solution of his problems and reacts unfavorable on his whole command. That is, that is a heavy statement. Here's the thing.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  That you know that you know that term fatigue will make a coward out of any man. Like when you get tired, it's you start making bad decisions and you can't maintain. So that's what this is. And if you're the better physical condition you're in, the more you'll be able to maintain for. You know, people freak out because I don't sleep a lot, which I I'm not, I don't encourage people not to sleep a lot. You should sleep as much sleep as you need, get a bunch of sleep, it's great. I know the the sleep diplomat guy, sleep, I'm not against that sleep. But what I will say is this, like if you're in good physical condition and you eat well,

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  you will not need as much sleep. I'm I'm here to tell you like, well, at least I don't think you do.

• 1:01:29Dave Berke?

  I was talking about with with with Flynn Cochran the other day on being on the road all the time. And sometimes we're on the road. I flew literally to Maine thirty six hours ago. And I flew back the very next day. I was on the road and and the the best thing you can do in a situation like where you're gonna be tired is actually go work out.

• 1:01:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:01:49Dave Berke?

  I mean, it's the best thing you can do. And the days that I get, I'm like, oh, I'd have to work out at three thirty and I don't. I regret it the entire day.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Dave Berke?

  I've never once heard you say you don't need sleep. But what the the reality is, is is when you're tired, the best thing you can do is get out of bed and do something physical.

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Dave Berke?

  Is the best way to, without a doubt.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And

• 1:02:15Jocko Willink?

  yeah, it's physical fitness. Don't neglect it. And that that happens a lot of times in business. People get wrapped in the business. And if you don't make some time to stay physically fit. Strateg- look, there's gonna be times in business, there's times at Echelon Front, there's times in our lives where, hey, man, you you like, I don't, I can't do my normal workouts during the muster. Like, we do a, we do, we work out, but it's not, it's not my normal workout. It's a workout that takes forty minutes, not, and it's only one a day, you know? So that's not normal. We gotta suck it up for the muster. It's, you know, four or five days of us very. Very work intensive. But when that's over, man, you gotta get right back into it. So people that go, hey, I get it.

• 1:02:59Jocko Willink?

  You got some project due and you got a week where you can only work out for 10 minutes a day, eight minutes a day, 28 minutes a day, whatever. Cool, get it, I get it. If you don't work out and then all of a sudden you develop that habit, well, then you have to bear in mind that the physical unfitness is going to undermine your efficiency. Period, end of story.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that closes out leadership. The next chapter is called, "The Exercise of Command: Doctrines of Combat, Chapter 4."

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  Here's where we give credit, good writing, solid statement. "The ultimate objective of all military operations is the destruction of the enemy's armed forces in battle."

• 1:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Which those simple statements like that, it's interesting when we go work with companies and no one, everyone has completely lost track of what it is that they're trying to do.

• 1:03:58Dave Berke?

  Yeah. What's your mission?

• 1:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Yep. "The ability to select objectives whose attainment contributes most decisively and quickly to the defeat of the hostile armed forces is one attribute of the able commander." What does that mean? "A good leader has the ability to prioritize and execute the most important things." I'll read it again. "The ability to select objectives whose attainment contributes most decisively and quickly to defeat the hostile armed forces is one attribute of the able commander." That is prioritize and execute. You gotta pick the most important, what do they call it here? The, the objective whose attainment contributes most decisively. That's the most important thing, that's what you're going to focus on.

• 1:04:46Jocko Willink?

  Prioritize and execute. Next.

• 1:04:49Jocko Willink?

  "Simple and direct plans and methods with prompt and thorough execution are often decisive in the attainment of success." That is almost verbatim from Kupen Thürer. Almost the exact same thing. You gotta keep things simple.

• 1:05:05Jocko Willink?

  People have been saying that forever.

• 1:05:09Jocko Willink?

  Next, unity of command obtains that unity of effort, which is essential to the decisive application of full combat power of the available forces. Unity of effort is furthered by full cooperation between elements of the command. So yes, prioritize and execute, figure out what's most important, and then cover and move for each other as you, as you execute.

• 1:05:33Jocko Willink?

  Next, through offensive action, a commander exercises his initiative, preserves his freedom of action, and imposes his will on the enemy. Boom, there you go. What is that? Offensive action, being on the offense, not being on the defense. Think of what it does for you as a person, as a human, as a leader. It exercises your initiative, preserves your freedom of action, and imposes your will on the enemy. You gotta go on offense.

• 1:06:08Jocko Willink?

  A defensive attitude may however be deliberately adopted as a temporary expedient while awaiting an opportunity for counteroffensive action. Hey look, sometimes you gotta be defensive for a minute, but you better be looking for that moment to get, go back on the offense.

• 1:06:23Dave Berke?

  The defensive posture is designed to find the opportunity to go on the defensive, go on the offensive. That's why you're doing it.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep. If you're on the defense, this is so clear in jiu-jitsu. If you're on defense in jiu-jitsu and you stay on defense, you will lose. Eventually, you're going to get caught. You can only defend so much. They're attacking, they have the initiative, they have the freedom of action, they're imposing their will on you. You can defend for a little while, but eventually you're gonna get taken. You're gonna get submitted.

• 1:06:50Dave Berke?

  Same in flying, and there is a comment in there that I, that I, I think it's the, described the freedom of movement. It's a thing we talk about all the time is the attribute to make sure that you're doing it correctly is, can you still maneuver? And so you can't be so offensive that you no longer can maneuver. But the ability to maneuver in that position is what allows you to find the opportunity to exploit and then go on the offensive to preserve your maneuvering room. Uh, is, is the, is the part that you know that you're balanced in those.

• 1:07:16Jocko Willink?

  So how do you over commit in an aircraft?

• 1:07:18Dave Berke?

  It actually, it's easy and it happens all the time. And you have, the aircraft have potential energy or capability. And if you're maneuver to get closer or whatever you're trying to do with another aircraft, if you overdo that, and then as your next move, you don't have any energy to turn the aircraft, you're, you're gonna lose. And that could happen in the most powerful airplane in the world. I could be in a Raptor and if I turn it really hard and actually turn it too hard and my energy goes from 300 knots to 100 knots. And I haven't allowed myself to kill them at that move. So I need another move on the chessboard and there's no energy left. I, I literally can't maneuver and I can, and I will lose to an inferior platform.

• 1:07:55Jocko Willink?

  So when you're riding a bicycle, if you, if you're going slow, it's harder to stay balanced and it's harder to turn. Is that the same? Is that the same thing? Like when you're in an aircraft, you need a certain amount of speed.

• 1:08:08Dave Berke?

  There's a point at which, and it's, it's measured. You know what that point is, is where your maneuvering gets to a peak and then starts to diminish and then you can no longer maneuver based on that.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  And that's speed, that's solely based on speed.

• 1:08:20Dave Berke?

  It's exactly right. Or we call it potential energy. You might need altitude, you would descend to get that energy back. But it's a combination of the actual airspeed, the number in your display, 100 miles an hour, or whatever it is, and how much altitude that you have. And the ground is the ground. And so if you cannot descend, whatever your airspeed is, that's what you have left. And it's, we call it potential energy, but it boils down to how much maneuvering airspeed do you have?

• 1:08:44Jocko Willink?

  How fast does a Raptor have to be going? So it doesn't stall?

• 1:08:49Dave Berke?

  Well, that number happens to be extremely low. And the irony in that is a lot of people don't understand is that your minimum controllable airspeed is a critical component. So the slower I can go and be maneuverable is a huge advantage for me. But every, every aircraft has a limit that if you get past whatever that number is, you're out of maneuvering airspeed and you're gonna lose. You have to have the ability to maneuver, no matter what situation you're in, to include being on the defensive. And that's what they're talking about is I'm gonna stay in this position until I see the opportunity to go on the offensive and I'm gonna maneuver in that position.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  What was that standard move that you do when you don't know what to do?

• 1:09:23Dave Berke?

  Lift vector on and pull. Point at the guy and turn until you figure out what you need to do next.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  Lift vector.

• 1:09:30Dave Berke?

  Essentially where your airplane is going in the sky. And if you don't know what to do, you put your lift vector directly on your opponent. You point directly at him and you start to maneuver towards directly towards him. That doesn't mean it's the right move. It means because you don't know what the right move is, you have to be doing something. Cause if you sit, sit there and do nothing, which is sort of the ultimate defensive position is I'm just going to hole up and bury. You're going to die so quickly.

• 1:09:57Jocko Willink?

  Go on the offense.

• 1:09:59Dave Berke?

  Go on the offense.

• 1:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Even if you're not a hundred percent sure what to do, go on the offense.

• 1:10:04Dave Berke?

  The defensive posture is actually a decision you make by design. Going on the offensive, if you don't know what to do, is as long as you're maneuvering, the more training, the more reps you have, the sooner you're going to figure out what to do. The, the default aggressive mindset of going on the offensive, where doesn't that apply?

• 1:10:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I mean, and, and this is something that Andrew and I talked about. You obviously, you don't just commit and what's what you just said, you just don't commit ignorantly.

• 1:10:33Dave Berke?

  No.

• 1:10:34Jocko Willink?

  And you don't over commit, you make the small decisions, even lift vector on and pull. Even that, that's like an adjustment, but then you're immediately, you're, you just enter the Uta loop.

• 1:10:45Dave Berke?

  That's your, that's your 10 steps down the road to get oriented that Andrew just described. And as soon as you, okay, I've got it figured out. Now you go do something else.

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 1:10:54Dave Berke?

  You gotta keep that maneuvering speed.

• 1:10:57Jocko Willink?

  Continue on the selection by the commander of the right time and place for offensive action is a decisive factor in the success of the operation. Numerical inferiority does not necessarily commit a command to a defensive attitude. Superior hostile numbers may be overcome through greater mobility, better armament and equipment, more effective fire, higher morale and better leadership. Superior leadership often enables a numerically inferior force to be stronger at the point of decisive action.

• 1:11:33Jocko Willink?

  Leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield.

• 1:11:35Dave Berke?

  So legit.

• 1:11:37Jocko Willink?

  Mobility. Arm better armament and equipment, more effective fire, higher morale. Isn't it interesting? Everyone would think better armament, right? Everyone would think better equipment. Most people would think better effective fire, but higher morale. Just having higher morale is an element in achieving victory, even if you're in a numerically inferior position.

• 1:12:02Jocko Willink?

  A strategically defensive mission is frequently most effectively executed through offensive action.

• 1:12:09Jocko Willink?

  It is often necessary for an inferior force to strike at an early moment in order to secure initial advantages or to prevent itself from being overwhelmed by a growing superiority in hostile forces.

• 1:12:22Dave Berke?

  If you run a company and you're the smaller company that you're competing with your competitors, being defensive is going to get you killed. You're going to lose. You're going to get run over by this bigger company because they're going to use their resources and size to bulldoze you. You have to be poised to strike, go on the offensive, the first opportunity you can. That is the right opportunity to do that.

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's interesting in jujitsu is the same thing happens. One of the best things to do if you're on the defensive is attack something. And then all of a sudden you can, you can turn the tables really, really quick. If you're lucky.

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Concentration of superior forces, both on the ground and in the air at the decisive place in time. And their employment in a decisive direction creates conditions essential to victory. So again, this is, this is prioritize next. What, what are you doing? You're concentrating your resources, your people, your manpower, you're concentrating everything at the right time. Such concentration requires strict economy and the strength of forces assigned to secondary missions. What does that mean? If you focus on other things, if you don't prioritize and execute, you're going to fall apart. Detachments during combat are justifiable only when the execution of tasks assigns, assigned them contributes directly to success in the main battle.

• 1:13:43Jocko Willink?

  So I got a little note there, never split forces. I loved it when tilt was on and tilt was talking about. He's like, yeah, so I had one group in the valley and one group in the tree line or something like that. And I was kind of like, I was all bummed out and I was all nervous and I was all sad. Cause I always preached, don't split forces. And I was like, I was like, man, I, I was like, I, I never really liked to split forces. He goes, I only did it two times. And I was like, yes, yes. Yeah.

• 1:14:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Cause when you, well, there's all kinds of confusion that happens there. But then this is, this isn't really talking about not splitting forces. What this is talking about is if you start peeling people off to do other things, it better really still contribute to the main effort. Yep.

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Surprise must be sought throughout the action by every means and by every echelon of command. It may be obtained by fire as well as by movement. Surprise is produced through measures which either deny information to the enemy or positively deceive him. As to our dispositions, movements and plans. Terrain which appears to impose great difficulties on operations may often be utilized to gain surprise. Surprise is furthered by variation in the means and methods employed in combat and by rapidity of execution. When, um, Brian Stan was on, he was like, he loved to talk about that operational tempo. And, and that's what this is talking about in that last sentence, you know? How, how quickly can you execute?

• 1:15:10Jocko Willink?

  If you can, if you can turn quickly and you can get back out there, that's going to, it's going to surprise the enemy. Going in into Ramadi in boats. That was a terrain that the enemy didn't expect the boys to come in on. Like that's what's going to happen. There was other times where guys went on long patrols. The enemy didn't think we're going to be out there.

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Surprise finds the enemy in a state of mental, moral, or physical unpreparedness. Every effort should be made to deny him to take effective countermeasures. The effect of surprise may be lost through dolatory methods of execution.

• 1:15:48Jocko Willink?

  To guard against surprise requires a correct estimate of enemy capabilities, adequate security measures, effective reconnaissance and readiness for action of all units. Every unit takes the necessary measures for its own local ground and air security. Provision for the security of flanks and rear is of special importance.

• 1:16:10Dave Berke?

  It also requires humility to recognize that you don't necessarily know exactly what your enemy is going to do and might want to think that they are more capable than you think they might be and you have to have the humility to recognize, hey, they might do something that we might not anticipate and a humble leader doesn't get complacent in what the enemy can and will do.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  No, they'll never attack us.

• 1:16:31Dave Berke?

  They'd never do that. We wouldn't have to worry about like, that's exactly what they're going to do if you're not, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:16:37Jocko Willink?

  Command is the authority, this section is called command. Command is the authority which an individual in the military service lawfully exercises over subordinates by virtue of rank or assignment.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  So that's what command is. Hey, I lawfully outrank you and therefore, you know, you have to obey me. Then it says this, command and leadership are inseparable. Whether the force is large or small, whether the functions of command are complex or simple, the commander must be the controlling head. His must be the mastermind and from him must flow the energy and impulse which are to animate all under him.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  So, that's a little bit interesting. And, um, and then we get into this. And that's when I was talking earlier about how, um, there's always that, that, that difference between people that think, hey, good leadership means these people will just listen to me because I, I have authority over them, right? And then there's people that realize the truth, which is, that's not the way you want to lead at all.

• 1:17:55Jocko Willink?

  Which we, which we'll get into here. Decision as to specific course of action is responsibility of the commander alone. While he may accept advice and suggestions from any of his subordinates, he alone is responsible for what the unit does or fails to do. And I think that was, that's really the, the crux of what that last statement was trying to say is like, listen, you're going to have a platoon chief, a platoon sergeant, whatever, a company first sergeant, a, a, a chief operation, operating officer, or chief operations officer, that's going to give you advice, it's going to help you make decisions. But if you're the boss, it's on you.

• 1:18:34Dave Berke?

  And at the end, the idea that the, that the leader, the commander, is responsible for the outcome no matter what is, I think what they're getting at. I mean, I hear that and there are words that I, I don't like exactly the way that they say it. But I'm glad that they're making that clear distinction that command and leadership are two different things. Command is the structure and we all understand that military, I know who my boss is. The org chart in any company defines the CEO, the COO, the, the frontline supervisor. But the leadership component, a good commander, not only am I going to take advice from other people, there are times that I simply won't be where they are and I need them to make those decisions and lead their teams. And if it ends up being wrong, it's still my responsibility. And that, that piece of it, I think is a hundred percent true.

• 1:19:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's, we'll, we'll dig into it a little bit more here in a second. This continues on, which is, this is getting into exactly what you were just saying. A willingness to accept responsibility is the foremost trait of leadership. So we wrote an entire book about that called Extreme Ownership. A willingness to accept responsibility is the foremost trait of leadership. Every individual from the highest commander to the lowest private must always remember that inaction and neglect of opportunities will warrant even more severe censure than an error of judgment in the action taken.

• 1:19:59Jocko Willink?

  So this is something that Troop and Fuhrer definitely hit on, almost word for word. It's worse to not do anything than it is to make a call and try and execute. And you, and you have bad judgment. So. Those are bold statements.

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  Continues on, "The criterion by which a commander judges the soundness of his own decision is whether it will further the intentions of the higher commander." So there you go. That makes it really easy to make decisions out on the battlefield. If you can come back to me and say, "Hey, Jocko, this is what I did. You know, I know that we were trying to push west and I had an opportunity to get on this knoll. I know it was outside our limit of advance, but it gave me a really good field of fire over the west. That's why I went there." And I'm like, "You know what? Ended up not working out the way we wanted it to, but I'm glad that you did it. Okay, because at least you went for it." As opposed to, "Well, you know, I know we were going west, but I decided, you know, maybe it would be smarter for us to go east and that's why I backed my force off, right?

• 1:21:05Jocko Willink?

  You can't just ignore the, the, um, overall commander. The overall commander in the higher position. You gotta, you gotta support his intentions." So as long, and what that means is for the higher commander, you gotta make sure that your intentions are known. That's why we have commander's intent.

• 1:21:20Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 1:21:23Jocko Willink?

  "Willingness to accept responsibility must not manifest itself in a disregard of orders on the basis of a mere probability of having better knowledge of the situation than the higher commander. The subordinate unit is a part of a tactical team employed by the higher commander to accomplish a certain mission and any independence on the part of the subordinate commander must conform to the general plan for the unit as a whole." So that's why we have parameters. That's what decentralized command, that's why when I'm always going off about, "Hey, for decentralized command to work, you have to make sure everyone understands what the mission is, what the goal is, what the end state is, what the parameters are that people are allowed to work with it." That's what you need to do and that's what they're talking about here.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Continuing, "The commander's mission is contained in the orders which he has received. Nevertheless, a commander of a subordinate unit cannot plead absence of orders or the non-received of orders as an excuse for inactivity in a situation where action is, where action on part, on his part is essential. Or where a change in the situation upon which the issued orders were based renders such orders impractical or impossible of execution."

• 1:22:30Jocko Willink?

  Lack of orders lead, in absence of orders lead.

• 1:22:33Dave Berke?

  The I didn't know, nobody told me what to do.

• 1:22:37Dave Berke?

  And, and that same responsibility for the leader of recognizing that he has to train his people to be able to lead in the absence of orders is 100% going to happen all the time in those situations.

• 1:22:49Jocko Willink?

  And this is so scary, especially from a military perspective, it's really scary because if this sounds like could easily just, just devolve into total mayhem, right? Hey, look, just because you don't have orders doesn't mean you should sit around and do nothing. And, and there's some people that think, well, I don't want my damn, some, you know, corporal fire team leader out there making calls. Yes, you do.

• 1:23:15Dave Berke?

  You have to.

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  As long as he understands from you what the intent is, then he's cleared hot.

• 1:23:21Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:22Jocko Willink?

  And he'll figure out the right thing to do.

• 1:23:24Dave Berke?

  I had 13 guys on my Anglico team in Ramadi, 13, and I was thinking, man, this is 13 guys. And this is, this is a small group, but this is, this is easy. Uh, and when I got there immediately, immediately, I think the second day I'm there, I'm like, man, I gotta split these teams up. There's just too many missions, too much to do. I simply can't do this with 13 people. I gotta do four here, four here, and I split them up. Nine, maybe 10 of the 13 guys were on their very first deployment. And look, I'll be honest with you, the first time I watched another gun truck go off the base without me, I'm like, man, I don't like this. I, I didn't like that.

• 1:24:00Dave Berke?

  But not only was it necessary, obviously it was completely necessary because the, the op tempo in Ramadi was just completely out of control. I could have used 30 more people if I had them. But the reality is, is that if you train them and they actually understand what they're there to get accomplished, they can go lead without you being there and you need them to, and they have to go do it. And, and yeah, as a leader, it's, it is a little hard to let that go. Decentralized command, the ultimate culmination of these laws, which is what you want. It is a little scary and is a little hard. But you can't, you can't, there's no other alternative.

• 1:24:33Jocko Willink?

  What it should, what that fear should do, that fear should compel you to make sure that everyone understands what the commander's intent is, make sure they understand what the parameters are.

• 1:24:42Dave Berke?

  Yes.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  Make sure they understand the rules of engagement, make sure they understand everything that's in your head. That's what it should compel you to do, because it is scary.

• 1:24:49Dave Berke?

  Yeah. And that you've done all the other things required to get to that. I have incredibly strong relationships. They understand every single thing I need them to understand. And they know that when we have to make hard decisions on the battlefield and prioritize, they're going to do the ones that greatly, the most impact on the mission that we're trying to accomplish. I actually have to follow the laws of combat if I want to get to decentralized command.

• 1:25:11Jocko Willink?

  Chek, continuing on. If the situation does not permit communication with the superior commander, and the subordinate commander is familiar with the general plan of operations or the mission of the whole command, he should take appropriate action and report situation as early as practicable. Which is what exactly what your guys did and what you did with them. The situations that confront a commander in war are of infinite variety. In spite of the most careful planning and anticipation, unexpected obstacles, frictions, and mistakes are common occurrences in battle. So that's right, things are going to go wrong. A commander must school himself to regard these events as commonplace and not permit them to frustrate him in the accomplishment of the mission.

• 1:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What spins me up? Nothing. Nothing. Everyone's going to screw up. I'm going to screw up, you're going to screw up, the team leader's going to screw up, the platoon sergeant's going to screw up, the platoon commander. That's what's going, the enemy's going to do unexpected things. That's what's gonna happen. Guess what's gonna happen in your life? Things are going to go wrong. The, the, the deal's not going to get closed. The kid's going to get sick. The car's going to crap. These things are going to happen. They're going to happen. It's the way life is. No one's rolling through life not hitting speed bumps. It's not happening. Don't let them throw you off.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  Now here we go. Uh, personal conferences between the higher commander and his subordinates who are to execute his orders may at times be advisable that the latter may arrive at a correct understanding of the plans and intentions of their superior.

• 1:26:53Jocko Willink?

  Then it continues on commanders do not justify their decisions to subordinates nor do they seek the approval of subordinates for their actions.

• 1:27:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, when I read that, like the other one that we were both kind of like, yeah, I'm not sure. When I read that right there, I was like, here's my notes. You see what they say? It says wrong. I wrote, that's wrong. That's just wrong. I'll read it again so we know what's wrong. It starts off with something cool. Hey, personal conferences between the higher commander and his and his subordinates who are to execute his orders may at times be advisable. Yep, you want to meet with your people so that the latter may arrive at the correct understanding of the plans and intentions of their superior. Yes, meet with your people, tell them what's going on. But then it says this. I kind of have to change voices for this one a little bit. Commanders do not justify their decisions to subordinates nor do they seek the approval of their subordinates for their actions.

• 1:27:48Jocko Willink?

  And so I highlighted that, circled it, and I wrote wrong. And I was really pissed when I read it. And I was like, you know what?

• 1:27:56Jocko Willink?

  Let's see if anything changed. So I went to the 1944 manual. And in 1944, that there's, there are very limited changes in this section. In fact, mostly what is difference, different between 1944 and 1941 is they have a massive sections on air power, on how it's going to be used, closer, all that stuff. In the 1944 version, they completely eliminate that sentence.

• 1:28:30Dave Berke?

  Yeah, good.

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  They completely eliminate that sentence because guess what? As a commander, you are absolutely trying to explain your decisions to your subordinates. You want them to understand why you're making a decision. You want them to never mind approve. You want them to actually just totally embrace and love and probably hopefully even come up with that decision themselves.

• 1:28:55Dave Berke?

  There's probably some element in there of this idea of decisiveness and the language is probably trying to get to something that they were thinking about that that was clearly not explained correctly. But this idea that you don't owe your people an explanation is crazy. It's crazy. And as a matter of fact, if you can't explain it in a way that's really compelling and have them go, oh, boss, got it. I'm on board. You're doing it wrong. You actually don't understand it well enough. And if you have to leverage the, oh, you don't understand what I'm saying. Okay, just do your job because I'm in charge of you.

• 1:29:30Dave Berke?

  I, it's just wrong. Period.

• 1:29:32Jocko Willink?

  And it's like, this stood out for me. So this is not in the German manual at all. It's not in there. There's nothing that says anything close to that in the German manual. So what that told me is, that's why I started thinking about this pull between people that leaders that are like, hey, listen, the bottom line is people got to do what you tell them to do. I want, that's what the, there was a guy in the room.

• 1:29:52Dave Berke?

  I wonder if there's that, that guy in there. So, hey, this is 41 now, I think, you know, a little, little of a peace time, you know, hey, there's this piece of this, this time that they didn't really quite get it. The 44 guys are thinking, well, what have we been doing for the last three years? Get rid of that because that's crap. It doesn't work.

• 1:30:09Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. Yeah. This room, in this room, there was some pogue, some rear echelon dude that was sitting there going, hey, you know, the bottom line though, I understand that we want, you know, people got to understand. But the bottom line is you don't have to go and justify your decisions to your subordinates, you know? You don't need to seek approval. You tell them what to do and they go and damn do it. That's the way it's gotta be.

• 1:30:32Dave Berke?

  In the end, you're in charge. So if they can't, you know, go back and forth for a while, but sooner or later, you gotta put your foot down and let them know who's in charge.

• 1:30:38Jocko Willink?

  You gotta just, gotta let them have it. And like you said, you, can you imagine they reconvene after three years of war? And they say, you know what? Who wrote, who's the pogue that wrote that?

• 1:30:53Dave Berke?

  We're not going to rewrite it or change it.

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  Get rid of it. Get rid of that sentence. I wasn't sure if I wanted to, we were actually going to cover this manual, but when I got to that, I was like, oh, this is all, this makes it all worthwhile. This makes it all worthwhile. Cause you understand that after three years of war.

• 1:31:11Jocko Willink?

  This should be a notification to leaders around the world. That if you think that you can just order people and that's going to work out for you, you're wrong. You're wrong. And you know, you, the way you worded something. I gotta jump back to it because you said, you said, if you, something like, if you can't explain to your people why you're doing something, then you're doing it wrong. I want to make it clear that when you say you're doing it wrong, you're talking about what you're telling them to do is wrong. Because if I can't, if I say, hey, Dave, we want to assault this target from the West and you're like, why? And I say, well, because that's the best spot.

• 1:31:53Jocko Willink?

  And you go, well, there's a channelized area you're going to have to go through. And I say, no, we're going to go from the West. And you say, but there's an open area here from the South where we can get cover on this high ground. And I say, no, we're going from the West. And I, and my only recourse is to say, no, Dave, I'm the boss. You're going in from the West. You're doing it wrong. Not just my leadership. You're doing the thing that you're trying to get done is wrong. Yeah.

• 1:32:26Jocko Willink?

  So worthwhile. Continues on and you gotta look at the 44, like it's almost like, here's the next one after this. In, in 1941, it was all troops assigned to the execution of a distinct mission should be placed under one command. The next, the very next line, after they eliminated all troops assigned to the execution, it's literally the same. They went through this thing. It's like, hey, this is a pretty solid, get rid of that line. What Turg wrote that?

• 1:32:53Jocko Willink?

  So check. All troops assigned to the execution of a distinct mission should be placed under one command to function as a task force for the duration of the operation. So long as a commander can exercise effective command, he does not disturb the established chain of command in his force. In some situations, conditions dictate that attachments must be made to subordinate commands. So this is, this is something that, I see a little bit of this sometimes, you know, like a, on a, a group, a task unit, a battalion, a company gets assigned. And if the leader, if the overall leader doesn't have the wherewithal to say, okay, you know what? Task unit Bruiser, you're supporting and task unit Alpha, you're, you guys are running this.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  And the task unit Bruiser guy, the tasking Bruiser guy said, cool. Hey, Alpha, what do you need? So often it's like, man, I should have been the one meeting this. That should be me. And I, I remember a couple of times early in tasking Bruiser while I was trying to be a, trying to hang out with the fair fairy and be like, well, you know, why don't we, no, it's like, no, Leif, you're running this one. Seth, your support or Seth, you're running this one. That's the way it is. I think I tried that one time, like, oh, you guys can each be, no, stupid.

• 1:34:08Dave Berke?

  And if your guys actually believe in the mission, it's no factor. It's never, they don't care at all. Roger that boss, I'm on it. Yeah. What do you need, man? And I'm in. If they get it, the big picture, if you've explained the mission and they buy into it, you could put that guy as a support element forever. Yep. And he's like, no factor. No factor at all. What do you need?

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  I will support all day long. What do you need?

• 1:34:25Dave Berke?

  Not to mention, half the time you go out there and the situation completely changes and the supporting effort becomes the main effort.

• 1:34:31Jocko Willink?

  Of course, of course. Isn't it crazy though, if you're working for me and I go, hey, Dave, your supporting effort and you're like, awesome, got it. And then the next night I'm like, hey, Dave, you're supporting effort and you're, and you say, awesome, got it. And I say, hey, you know what? You're going to be supporting effort again. You're like, bring it. I'm, I'm ready. We're getting this dialed. And then I say, hey, man, I need you to do supporting effort again. And you say, Roger that. We're, we're, we're ready. So if that's your attitude, that's awesome. And eventually I go, hey, you know what, Dave? You're running this thing.

• 1:35:04Dave Berke?

  Guess it's going to be the main effort. Yeah.

• 1:35:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, if I go, hey, Dave, you're the supporting effort. You go, okay, okay. And then the next night I go, hey, you're supporting effort again. Why? They, I was supporting effort last night. I immediately hate you.

• 1:35:18Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  I immediately go, bro, is your ego really that out of control that on this random piece of paper somewhere, on this particular operation, on an operation that we have no idea where it's going to go or what's going to happen. And you could end up being the element that's in the big giant firefight that needs to step up. And you want it. You're so concerned about that right now. That's where your priorities are. That that's where we're at. Okay, cool. Noted. I will never make you. I will never put you in charge of anything ever.

• 1:35:44Dave Berke?

  Yeah. You know what? Nobody ever asked me in 23 years of conducting missions in the Marine Corps. Hey, were you assigned the main effort to read the support? Nobody cares. And yeah, it's, it's the blend of the ego and just, hey, what's the best way to, what's the thing I can do to help accomplish a mission? I'm in. I don't care what it is.

• 1:36:02Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if you and I meet and I say, hey, Dave, you know, I've been assigned supporter, you know, to you. Which is kind of crap because I think my, my, my company's better than your company, but whatever. That's what the boss decided. So tell me what you need and I'll do it. Like, just think about that. And now when I say, hey, Dave, you know, we shouldn't do it like that. You will, you aren't going to listen to a damn thing I say. But if I say, hey, Dave, hey, man, we're here to support and if you need anything, tell me and let's, let's get it done. And then we're now in the planning. I go, hey, what do you think about us setting up over here? You know, a little bit different than your thoughts, but what do you think of that? And you go, hmm, well, that's actually not a bad idea.

• 1:36:47Jocko Willink?

  So I have a little bit of humility and all of a sudden I can actually influence the situation a thousand times more. Than if I go in there with my chest bowed out and my ego barking like a rabid dog.

• 1:36:59Dave Berke?

  Yeah. And the worst part about that is if you do that, your idea might actually still be better than mine and I won't listen to you. And you're killing both of us.

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 1:37:06Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  It's just a freaking disaster.

• 1:37:09Dave Berke?

  Just get on board for the entire team to win and it works out.

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  Get on board for the big win.

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  Estimate the situation. In any tactical operation, the commander must quickly evaluate all available information bearing on his task, estimate the situation, and reach a decision. The commander's estimate of the situation is based on the mission of the unit, the means available to him and to the enemy, the conditions in his area of operations, including the terrain and weather, the probable effects of various lines of action on future operations. The basis of these factors, he considers the lines of action open to him, which if successful, will accomplish his mission, and the lines of action of which the enemy is physically capable and which can interfere with such accomplishment. He analyzes the opposing lines of action one

• 1:37:58Jocko Willink?

  against another to arrive at conclusions as to the probability of success for each of his own lines of action. That's a lot of words. Check all the different courses of action. See what the potential outcomes are. Move forward with one of them. On the basis of this analysis, he considers the relative advantages and disadvantages of his own lines of action and selects the line of action which most promises success regardless of what the enemy may do. If two or more lines of action appear equally promising, he chooses the one that will most favor future action. Pretty straightforward. The estimate often requires rapid thinking with consideration limited to essential factors. In campaign,

• 1:38:39Jocko Willink?

  exact conclusions concerning the enemy can seldom be drawn. To delay action in an emergency because of insufficient information shows a lack of energetic leadership and may result in lost opportunities. The commander must take calculated risks.

• 1:38:57Jocko Willink?

  I read all that so I could say that last thing.

• 1:39:00Dave Berke?

  Oodle loop. Strategic versus tactical. If you don't do anything in a tactical situation, you're gonna lose.

• 1:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Then you're not gonna know everything.

• 1:39:10Dave Berke?

  No.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 1:39:11Dave Berke?

  Ever.

• 1:39:13Jocko Willink?

  You do not know the potential outcomes. Even if you have the best intelligence, it's gonna change. Continue on, "Considering the enemy's possible lines of action, the commander must guard against unwarranted belief that he has discovered the enemy's intentions and against ignoring other lines of action open to the enemy." This is what you said earlier. If you think you know what the enemy's gonna do, you're wrong. Don't, don't fall into that ego trap. "Even when the weight of evidence warrants the belief that the enemy is committed to a definite line of action, the commander must bear in mind that a change in the enemy's plans may occur at any time."

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it happens. You gotta stay humble. "The estimate of the situation culminates in the decision." Once a decision, a decision once made is not changed without some compelling reason. "In combat, the will and energy of the commander must persist until the mission is accomplished." "Estimation of the situation is, however, a continuous process, and changed conditions may at any time call for a new decision. Too stubborn adherence to a previous decision may result in costly delay, loss of opportunity for decisive action, or outright failure." So, the Troop and Führer covered this very, very well. Sometimes, yeah, it's, it's this. You wanna stick with your plan,

• 1:40:38Jocko Willink?

  but you're constantly assessing to see if your plan was the right plan, if your decision was the right decision. And if it's not, you change.

• 1:40:45Dave Berke?

  Change. That's the Oodle Loop. Inputs are happening all the time, and sooner or later, hey, there's enough inputs, tell me, I gotta change. I gotta do something different. And you better have the ability to maneuver. When you're in that, when you're making those, you made that decision, you're taking action, you have to preserve, preserve the ability to maneuver, cuz it's going to change, period.

• 1:41:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's that over-commitment.

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to talk about terrain here. The part of the commander's estimate dealing with terrain often exercises decisive influence upon his decision and plan. The proper evaluation and utilization of the terrain reduce the disadvantage of incomplete information of the enemy. The more important features to be considered in evaluating terrain include not only natural ground forms such as mountain ridges, streams, bodies of water, woods, and open spaces, but also artificial features such as roads, railroads, and towns. The commander seeks always to utilize the terrain to his own advantage and to the enemy's disadvantage. Now, that's one of those things where I was like, "Yeah, you know what? I definitely..." For me, as a leader, when I...

• 1:41:52Jocko Willink?

  Actually, as a leader, but more as an instructor, the difference between, like, someone that sucks as a small element unit leader, small unit leader, someone that doesn't do it right, and someone that does it well, is someone that does it right utilizes the terrain, and someone that doesn't, they don't.

• 1:42:14Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Jocko Willink?

  So, that's why I put that in there. But, there's much more to it than that. And that is the fact that when you are leading people, when you're interacting with human beings, there's terrain that needs to be accounted for. The terrain isn't bridges, streams, and mountains. The terrain is ego, it's agendas, it's personalities, it's nuances, it's idiosyncrasies that people have. That's the terrain.

• 1:42:45Dave Berke?

  That's so important. And it's that every single person you're interacting with is going to be a little bit different, and those idiosyncrasies, and all those little small components, a good leader understands all of those different things. So, the idea of what terrain is in their mind is all of that together.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I think...

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  You were setting me up for a meeting and you gave me like an eight minute brief on the scenario that was happening. Like, hey, this is what's going on. This is this guy. This is where he comes from. Uh, this is what he likes. This is the problems he's had. Here's where, here's what I think he wants to do. And this is the approach I would take. And I was like, check, what did you just brief me on? You, you didn't mention, uh, trails and mountains, but you gave me the terrain brief that I was about to walk into. That's what it is. And then, then when I walk into that meeting, instead of me being a leader that doesn't know what's happening, all of a sudden, I'm a leader that understands the terrain and can make the right maneuvers.

• 1:43:53Jocko Willink?

  Know your terrain. Think about what, think about what, and really what this boils down to from a leadership perspective in the business world is think, identify your terrain, right? Identify it. Let's, let's, let's talk about what that is and see how we can use it to our advantage. Next section is called conduct in battle. The commander's decision for his unit as a whole, and the missions to subordinate units in support of the decision are communicated to subordinates by clear and concise orders, which give them freedom of action, appropriate to their professional knowledge, to the situation, to their dependability, and to the team play desired. So again, I think there was a pogue in the room. And sometimes the other guys were

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  like, hey, bro, no, freedom of action is what these guys need. And, and they just had to like sometimes add this stuff while the pogue was out getting coffee. I think the pogue was probably the senior guy. And a couple of times he just overrode him. Yeah. But then they just, they just like he, they sent him to get, they, he went to a meeting and they did like several sections.

• 1:44:58Dave Berke?

  That sentence is the exact opposite of what that said.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:02Dave Berke?

  You know, a couple of pages back. It's the exact opposite thing.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Freedom of action. Clear and concise orders which gives them freedom of action. Use that as your guide. Next, after providing for the issuance of orders, the commander places himself where he can best control the course of action and exert his leadership. His command post affords the advantage of established signal communication. When opportunity offers and when his presence at the command post is not urgently required, he visits subordinate commanders and his troops in order to inspire confidence and assure and to assure himself that his orders are understood and properly executed. Yep, you got it. The Navy, they started calling that deck plate leadership. Did you guys ever hear that? It's like, hey, you need to get out. You need to get out with the troops. You can't sit in the air conditioning space when you got, you know, your, your bosun's

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  mates down there in the well deck. Right. And it's 180 degrees in the well deck with diesel fumes. Yeah.

• 1:46:01Jocko Willink?

  Whenever the commander leaves his command post, he should orient his staff as to further plans to be made or measures to be taken in anticipation of future contingencies and should inform his staff where he can be reached. Yep. During the decisive phase of battle, the place of the commander is near the critical point of action. Not in it, but near it. A commander influences the course of subsequent action by his leadership, by the use of his reserves, by the concentration of artillery and other supporting fires, and by the employment of combat aviation and armored units. The duration of attack cooperation can seldom be predicted. Successful engagements engagements sometimes progress so slowly that gains made are not

• 1:46:44Jocko Willink?

  immediately apparent. Other times they progress so fast that gains made can be capitalized only by the most aggressive and far sighted leadership. Troops are used up rapidly in decisive phases of combat. This attrition must be anticipated by the commander and his staff who take timely measures for replacement of men, units, transports, weapons, and for replenishment of ammunition and other supplies. When the situation permits, troops which have been heavily engaged are rested and reorganized before being assigned new and important mission.

• 1:47:22Jocko Willink?

  The staff assists the commander to the extent that he may require by providing information, data and advice by preparing detailed plans and orders in accordance with his directions and by exercising such supervision over the execution of his orders as he may prescribe. A staff officer as such does not exercise command.

• 1:47:43Jocko Willink?

  The staff may be divided into two groups, the general staff and the special staff. In large units, these two staff groups are separate and distinct. In smaller units, they merge into each other. And one staff officer frequently is charged with the duties pertaining to both staff groups. Now, the whole reason that I read the last two, three paragraphs was so I could read this.

• 1:48:06Jocko Willink?

  "In every headquarters, there is a constant tendency to multiply personnel, expand the functions of staff administration and accumulate records and office equipment."

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  And then, this is one of the only thing that is italicized in this book. It says, "The commander must avoid this expansion. He must organize his headquarters so as to maintain its readiness for prompt movement." So again, this is when the pogue walked out of the room, they're like, he, the pogue wrote all those other three paragraphs. He was in there like, "The staff this and the staff commander." And then these guys were like, "Listen, they're gonna try and expand the staff. You don't need it."

• 1:48:46Dave Berke?

  I was almost surprised, like, there's a section on the staff. I was like, "Oh, do we need to put that?" And, and I've been listening to even some of the other things. There's something that he said earlier even about that, at that point of friction. I think really what he was saying is, is you'll burn through resources more quickly, which is true, I understand that, because that's where the culminating event is. And that, that means, you know, your people have to be cycled through more quickly and you have to pull them up. There's a part of that that's true, for sure. The point of friction is gonna require the most resources and the most energy and you're gonna exert yourself the most. But there's a piece in there that probably needs to be worth expanding on a little bit is that... The point of friction is actually if you're prepared and briefed for it, those people actually have the most endurance.

• 1:49:29Dave Berke?

  Because that's where they want to be, that's where they've been anticipating, that's the entire thing this this whole build has been about is to get there. And they're the most involved, they're the most engaged. Those people also have the most endurance. It's the places where there's the least amount going on, the least amount of friction where you feel you're making the least impact. Those are the people that are the first ones to really struggle because they feel disconnected and and I don't, it's not 100% wrong the way they said it. But I wanted there to be a piece of saying, oh, by the way, everybody wants to be at the point of friction on your team if you've prepared and built them and those people can actually endure the longest. You still need to pull some of those folks off the line, you still need to assess how they're doing. But the people most engaged are typically the people that are most willing to stay engaged the longest.

• 1:50:14Dave Berke?

  And that piece was missing in that last section there. There's this peacetime hint to all these comments that are in there and like, the point of friction, you would have to choke me out to get me away from that. To give me a chance to rest and to to refit and and and again, it doesn't mean that you just let them go in the red forever. But there's just a part missing in there. That that this guy we're talking about, whoever this guy was.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  The POG.

• 1:50:41Dave Berke?

  Yeah, the POG.

• 1:50:42Jocko Willink?

  The POG's in the room.

• 1:50:42Dave Berke?

  The REMF had a lot of influence on that. I'm like, eh, what about the other part that says, oh, by the way, that's where everybody really wants to be?

• 1:50:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Because that guy doesn't want to be there.

• 1:50:50Dave Berke?

  No. And he's like, all those guys need a break, like, I dare you to pull me off the line.

• 1:50:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:56Dave Berke?

  When when things are at their most intense. Good luck getting me off the line.

• 1:51:02Jocko Willink?

  The next section is called Combat Orders. The authority to issue orders is an inherent function of command. Orders are normally issued to next subordinate commanders. Bypassing the normal channels of command is resorted only to in urgent situations. In such cases, both commander issuing the and the commander receiving the order should notify intermediate commanders of its purport as soon as possible. So, try not to jump the chain of command.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  Orders may be either complete or fragmentary. The order is complete when it covers all the essential aspects of the phases of operations. Complete orders include missions to all subordinate units charged with the execution of tactical operations and carrying out the commander's plan. So that's a complete order. Fragmentary orders, and by the way, there's no, there's no distinction between these two things in Trooping Führung. So I think the POG was like, no, orders have to be detailed. And the guys were like, okay, yep, you're Roger that, sir. But, uh, you know, there's something else that can happen, maybe possibly like we call them, uh, they made up fragmentary orders. Fragmentary orders are used when speed and delivery and execution is imperative.

• 1:52:13Dave Berke?

  Guess which one you're gonna do the most of?

• 1:52:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Frag orders are issued successively as the situation develops and as decisions are made and consist of separate instructions to one or more subordinate units prescribed, prescribing each, the part each is to play in the operation in the separate phases thereof. This procedure will be usual in divisions and smaller units. The POG snuck that one in there. Fragmentary orders may be either oral or written. They are concise, but not at the expense of clarity and omission of essential information. That's very, very clear in the, uh, in the, in the Trooping Führung.

• 1:52:56Jocko Willink?

  Instructions issued in fragmentary orders may be repeated in a complete field order or in an annex if considered desirable. Orders should be originated sufficiently, sufficiently early and transmitted in such form as to permit subordinate commanders, the maximum superior periods to recon order, to estimate their own situations, to issue their orders and to prepare their troops for the contemplated operation. In many situations, it may be necessary or desirable to order a warn of impending operations. Warning order. A warning order contains information which, which enables subordinate commanders to make preparations for a contemplated operation.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  Its principal purpose is to gain the time for preparatory measures and to conserve the energy of the troops. So that is in the Trooping Führung, the, the idea of a warning order and warning orders are awesome.

• 1:53:52Dave Berke?

  Yeah. Be prepared to.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Here's what we're probably gonna do. It's gonna look something like this. Prep this gear. Think about that area of operations.

• 1:54:02Dave Berke?

  And if I was gonna take away something from this, that long section there, if I'm a leader in a business or a key leader in an organization, the takeaway for me is it may feel like you at the top of the org chart needs to talk the most, give the most information. Actually, what you should do is the time that you should maximize is your subordinate leaders going to figure out what they need to do to support your overall mission. The least amount of information you can pass, it has to be the right amount of information, but the more time you can give them to figure out their particular situation to support that, the better. Less talking, more time for your people to go do their job as opposed to let's get everybody in the room. I'm gonna talk all day long about every single detail and not give them any time to go figure out. That's, that's opposite. So the frago and the warningo,

• 1:54:47Dave Berke?

  that's probably 95% of the way you're gonna communicate as leader. Yeah, once at your annual conference, for sure. Yeah, we need to spend some time. We'll do that. But that's not gonna happen on day to day. And the less you talk is probably the better for your team because it gives them more time to lead.

• 1:55:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And those, those detailed plans are gonna change. They're gonna change.

• 1:55:07Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:07Jocko Willink?

  So you can, you can, if you've got, if you've got the relationships and you've got the well-trained people and you've got the trust built, man, the orders are so freaking simple to give.

• 1:55:20Dave Berke?

  And, and that was the thing with, and I didn't say this, but that's the whole jumping the chain of command thing is what you really want, there are times, look, don't jump the chain of command if you can avoid it, for sure. That's a good blanket statement. But the reality is, is that, are there times to jump the chain? Yes, there are. And the best thing I have when I jump the chain of command is whoever that leader that I bypassed to give direct orders or information to their folks, if I got a really good relationship and a long history of them, they don't even care. It's no factor. And like, hey, and I was so good back, hey, Jaco, you weren't around. I had to make this thing happen. This is what we did and why. You're like, good to go. Cool. Sounds good. It's the pogue. It's the guy who really likes the chain of command. You, you shouldn't bypass me to speak to my men is the guy that

• 1:56:03Dave Berke?

  Who's most offended and it's probably the hardest relationship because what that guy cares about the most is his positional authority. Uh, and there's so much in there uh on even the jump in the chain is you have a good relationship, you can jump the channel all day long. And I'm not saying you should go out of your way to do it, but sometimes it's required and strong relationships like, yeah, no factor. Thanks for giving me the heads up. My, my guys back briefed me anyway. We're all good. I'm all in.

• 1:56:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they told me what they're doing. Got it. Appreciate it.

• 1:56:27Dave Berke?

  Thanks. Yeah.

• 1:56:28Jocko Willink?

  No factor. People that are insecure about their leadership capabilities are the ones that really, well, that's the, that's also the pogue. Lieutenant Colonel Pogue, I think he's actually a Colonel, this pogue, Colonel Pogue.

• 1:56:40Dave Berke?

  Yeah, no, he's the senior guy.

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's the senior guy and yeah, Colonel Pogue is in the house for some of this.

• 1:56:51Jocko Willink?

  Orders, an order should not trespass, trespass upon the province of a subordinate.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  It should contain everything that the subordinate must know to carry out his mission, but nothing more.

• 1:57:10Jocko Willink?

  I, I really like that order should not trespass upon the province of a subordinate.

• 1:57:14Dave Berke?

  Yes.

• 1:57:14Jocko Willink?

  Like you gotta let him run his thing.

• 1:57:17Dave Berke?

  Tell him what he needs and then give him all the time in the world you can to get, let him go lead.

• 1:57:23Jocko Willink?

  Orders must be clear and explicit and as brief as, as is consistent with clarity. Short sentences are easily understood.

• 1:57:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, they're like, hey, Colonel, Colonel Pogue, do you mind if we just say that short sentences are easily understood? Cause some of the guys might not get that. And he's like, whoa, I'd like to talk to you about that for a while. Clarity is more important than technique. The more urgent the situation, the greater the need for conscious, for conciseness in the order. Think about that. The more urgent the situation, the greater the need for conciseness in the order. I think it was Mark Twain that said, I wanted to write you a short note, but I didn't have time. So I'm writing you this long letter, which is easier than writing something short and concise.

• 1:58:15Dave Berke?

  I come back, you tell the story a lot on the podcast and it's the bust that door. Just three, just this, the simplest. And the reason you have to say it like that is because there's actually not any more time than you need to talk about, hey, well, I feel like the enemy might be maneuvering this bust that door.

• 1:58:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:34Dave Berke?

  And they go, and they go do that.

• 1:58:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and problem solved.

• 1:58:37Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 1:58:38Jocko Willink?

  Any statement of reasons for measures adopted should be limited to what is necessary to obtain an intelligent cooperation from the subordinates.

• 1:58:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm read that one again, any statement of reasons for measures adopted should be limited to what is necessary to obtain intelligent cooperation from the subordinates. There's a little bit, there's a little argument about that one. Cause the, the Pogue, Colonel Pogue was like, they don't, you need to tell them why.

• 1:59:05Dave Berke?

  To do.

• 1:59:06Jocko Willink?

  You tell them what to do. And the other guys were like, listen, you need to give them some information on why this is happening. And he's like, no, you don't. And they said, yes, you do. And finally they wrote this statement.

• 1:59:15Dave Berke?

  The compromise.

• 1:59:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the compromise is like, at least let them know, give them what's limited so that they have, have the information and can understand why it's happening. Now, there are times when leaders give too much information and it overwhelms the machine gunner. Who's like, bro, tell me what my field of fire is.

• 1:59:35Dave Berke?

  For sure.

• 1:59:35Jocko Willink?

  Can you tell me that again?

• 1:59:39Jocko Willink?

  Detailed instructions for a variety of contingencies or prescriptions that are a matter of training do not inspire confidence and have no place in an order.

• 1:59:49Jocko Willink?

  Trivial and meaningless expressions divide responsibility and lead to the adoption of half measures by subordinate, by subordinates. Trivial and meaningless expressions. They're actually telling you how to write and how to speak.

• 2:00:03Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04Jocko Willink?

  Trivial and meaningless expressions divide responsibility and lead to the adoption of half measures by subordinates. Exaggerated and bombastic phrases invite ridicule and weaken the force of an order.

• 2:00:24Jocko Willink?

  You cannot do that. You cannot use exaggerated and bombastic phrases.

• 2:00:34Jocko Willink?

  What's, what, what happens is.

• 2:00:38Jocko Willink?

  You think you're not getting the message apart to, to your people.

• 2:00:41Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Jocko Willink?

  You think that they don't get it.

• 2:00:44Dave Berke?

  If we don't do this, it's going to destroy the company. And you're thinking like, oh, I, I better pay attention. And actually all that does is just undermine your message like, bro.

• 2:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:53Dave Berke?

  Hang, hang on, that, that's not going to destroy the company. If you're the leader that, that, that, if you can have the humility to recognize you're the one that covers all these little detail points. Your people are tuning you out. They're tuning you out and actually what's going to happen is they're going to miss the important things. So you just need to say just the important things.

• 2:01:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what you do is you paint yourself into a corner.

• 2:01:16Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 2:01:17Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you're talking. And you're saying this, and then you're saying that, and then you're saying this, and then you're saying that. And then you finally want to say something important. You want to make sure everyone pays attention. So you put an exaggeration or you make it a bombastic phrase. And then what you end up doing is now you're making exaggerations and bombastic phrases all the time. They have no impact and you're the, you end up the, the, the boy that cried wolf.

• 2:01:38Dave Berke?

  Last muster, somebody asked you a question and the answer was basically kind of like, how much talking, how much listening? And you're like 98% listening, 2% talking. And you pause and you're like, now that I've thought about it. That's the perfect ratio. It's just the least amount of things you can say to pass the pertinent information and then stop talking. And if it's the, the only way to compel your people to do it is that the risk is total destruction. Then the one in a million times that actually it could be total destruction. They actually don't respond the way that they need to. They don't care because you've been saying that this could crush us. This could destroy, it's like. The one time that's, that's true, they've filtered you out years ago.

• 2:02:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, 98% of the time use your ears, 2% of the time. Use your mouth.

• 2:02:26Jocko Willink?

  I, I would not talk on the radio. Intermittent Bruiser as a platoon commander, I would not talk on the radio. When I talked, everybody listened.

• 2:02:36Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 2:02:37Jocko Willink?

  And same thing, you know, when, when one of platoon commanders is given a brief. I'm not talking. I got three things to say at the end, maybe two. Here's what's important. That's what you need to think about. Boom.

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  Expressions such as "attack vigorously", if used in orders, are not only verbose and meaningless, but tend to weaken the force of subsequent orders in which such expressions are not there. That's exactly what you were just saying. Like, you're gonna run out of adjectives, bro.

• 2:03:08Dave Berke?

  This is critically important.

• 2:03:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, there's the hierarchy of adjectives and you're gonna reach the end of it, which is gonna suck. Next, orders should prescribe only so far as conditions can be foreseen. Orders which attempt to regulate matters too far in the future result in frequent changes. Frequent changes in orders overload the means of signal communication, cause confusion and misunderstanding, impose needless hardship on the troops, and injure their morale. So, there you go. That's freaking epic right there.

• 2:03:35Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 2:03:36Jocko Willink?

  You, you sit there and you're trying to, wha- what I just said. This, we're gonna come out with a detailed plan of how it's gonna go from day one to day nineteen. No!

• 2:03:44Dave Berke?

  No, you're not.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  You're not. No one is.

• 2:03:48Dave Berke?

  And it, it pisses your guys off.

• 2:03:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:03:52Dave Berke?

  It pisses them off.

• 2:03:52Jocko Willink?

  For sure. I learned this lesson. So, uh, I was on a ARG deployment, which meant I was on a ship, and we were planning for some mission. And at first, they said, "Okay, you're gonna launch from, you're gonna launch from the boats, the, the, the rib boats, the rigid hold inflatable boats. You'll load your Zodiacs on there. We'll put them in the water and you guys will go do your mission." And so, we start prepping for that. And then they come back and they say, "Actually, sorry, our bust, you're gonna use helicopters." So, we're like, "Okay, now this is a totally different rigging exercise." I mean, completely different. We have to, we, so we have to bring the Zodiacs, which we had rigged for boat launch. We had to completely break them down

• 2:04:35Jocko Willink?

  and now rig them to go inside of a CH-46 and get kicked out the back and then we jump in the water and we go. This takes us, I'm not even kidding, this takes six hours of hard labor. And hour five and a half comes back, "Actually, you're not using helos, you're using, uh, boats again." And there was like borderline just total breakdown of chain of command. We're like, are you kidding me? Cause, cause guess what? We hadn't planned anything. We hadn't done any of our personal gear prep. All we were doing was, and, and when you're on an arg, like you, you go check out bringing a 55 horsepower engine from the flight deck next to the ribs down into the

• 2:05:17Jocko Willink?

  well deck, you know? And then you do that with every piece of gear that you have. Well, it, it was just stupid. And, and of course, this was a three minute conversation. This is a decision, a three minute conversation and a four second decision that my upper chain of command above my platoon commanders, you know, was like, oh, it'd be good to get him some work in a, in a helos. Okay. Well, yeah, let's get the helos going. Have them get, get ready for a helo. It wasn't like, okay, are they committed? No, they just made a little decision. And, and I learned that in that moment in time, when you're the guy in charge, you better know what the hell your decisions, how your decisions impact the boys. Cause not, I look, wasn't hard work. Yes,

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  but was even worse than the fact that it was hard work. We were not prepared now. We had wasted, it took us another six hours to get everything de-rigged. So we were not planning the way we should have been planning because we were running around like idiots, wasting time. Wasting time.

• 2:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Orders issued by subordinates should not be mere repetition of those from higher authority with additions of their own. New orders are clearer and more satisfactory.

• 2:06:32Jocko Willink?

  As a rule, it is desirable to keep contemplated operations secret as long as possible and to confine knowledge thereof to new, to a few staff officers and senior commanders. However, upon entry into action, no unit should be in doubt as to what the commander wants to do.

• 2:06:49Jocko Willink?

  Whenever knowledge of his intentions is necessary to ensure the cooperation of units engaged, the commander does not hesitate to disclose them to all concerned. Ignorance of his intentions may often lead to inactivity on the part of subordinates. Commander's intent is the actual thing that you lead with.

• 2:07:08Dave Berke?

  It's the most important piece of information of all of it. And when we work with companies all the time, there's this phrase that people know. It's like, if you ever hear yourself or the people around you saying, "You don't need to know that. Just do your job." Man, the likelihood of success is basically zero.

• 2:07:30Jocko Willink?

  Check. "It is impossible to prescribe detailed forms of orders to fit every tactical situation. To attempt to do so would result in rigid form and a routine style of expression, which would not be in accord with the tactical requirements presented by the diverse situations that arise in war."

• 2:07:51Jocko Willink?

  You don't know what's gonna happen.

• 2:07:52Dave Berke?

  That circles back, I think, to the first sentence you read. And where it's like, "You can't script the answer. You don't know what's going to happen."

• 2:08:00Jocko Willink?

  "To the extent practicable, however, it has been found efficient and convenient to classify combat orders according to their purpose and scope of, for some of these to adopt a standard sequence of composition. This makes for the ease of understanding, avoidance of omissions, and ready reference." Yeah, for sure. That's where you get SMIAC, which they surprisingly don't cover. They cover it in trooping fury, but they don't cover it in this one.

• 2:08:23Jocko Willink?

  But that's what they're talking about.

• 2:08:26Jocko Willink?

  Moreover, experience has shown that an order which can be misunderstood will be misunderstood. And experience has shown that an order that which can be misunderstood will be misunderstood, and to obviate the designations of boundaries, details of time and place, military terminology, abbreviations, designations of units, and the like.

• 2:08:50Jocko Willink?

  For details related to these matters, see FM 101 Tac 5. And I wrote Tac 1, which is the operational terms and graphics, which

• 2:08:59Jocko Willink?

  in the SEAL Teams, when the war kicked off, we were not, we didn't know what we were doing. Like, in terms of operational terms and graphics, we just kind of drew arrows. Yeah. And like, made it obvious to the guys in the platoon, like, hey, move there. Bad guys there. We didn't, we didn't realize that there was an actual, an actual language that was utilized throughout all, like, I remember when I was trying to convince people that The entire military? Well, it's through, it's not just through our military. It's all NATO forces, by the way. Cause I remember having, I would be like, hey, listen, you know, you need to put this stuff in, here, there's this manual, it's called the 101 Tac 5. I used to literally have the 101 Tac 5, Tac 1.

• 2:09:44Jocko Willink?

  I had a printed copy and I had it in my bathroom. I had like one copy in my bathroom and I would read through it, you know, because at some point, I think I was probably,

• 2:09:56Jocko Willink?

  I think I was probably a platoon commander and I realized like, oh, everyone uses this but us. Okay. So I just started trying to learn terms and, you know, cause we, we don't have the basic school in the SEAL Teams. We don't even have, you know, advanced infantry training like they have in the Army where you're gonna, you, you, you go through platoon work, but it's this isolated thing, right? It's this isolated thing. And luckily I did two ARC deployments where we worked with the Marine Corps extensively, which was awesome. And I got my taste and my indoctrination in how the rest of the freaking military works. Cause you got big Navy, you got the Marine Corps, you got Marine Corps Air. It was awesome. I was so lucky that I got put in those situations.

• 2:10:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's kind of where I first would see these things. I'd be like, oh, that's an interesting symbol. But, you know, it was pre-internet. It wasn't like you could, wasn't like I could explore this idea. But yeah, I used to have one of those next to my bed, but I remember trying to, I would be telling guys like, hey,

• 2:10:56Jocko Willink?

  the symbol for the enemy actually isn't a red X. It's, it's a diamond. Yeah. And they'd be like, that's dumb. No, no one's gonna know what that means. Actually, everyone in NATO forces knows what that means. The only people that don't know is the 16 guys in your SEAL platoon. How about we get on board with what everyone else in the military is doing?

• 2:11:18Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:11:21Jocko Willink?

  And now we get, this is the last section that's,

• 2:11:25Jocko Willink?

  you know, that's, that's covered, worth covering. In every unit, standing operating procedures is prescribed by the commander wherever practicable.

• 2:11:38Jocko Willink?

  This procedure covers those features of the operation which lend themselves to a definite or standardized procedure without loss of effectiveness. The adoption of such procedures will save time in the preparation and issuance of orders, minimize the chances for confusion and errors when under stress of combat, and greatly simplify and expedite the execution of operations in the field. Pretty straightforward. And they close out talking about command posts, which nothing, they talk about signal communication, which, you know, this is very tactical level stuff, like how you're gonna communicate

• 2:12:17Jocko Willink?

  at, during this time period with, with message centers and advanced message. I mean, it's, it's like the actual how they're doing it, so

• 2:12:27Jocko Willink?

  it's not super applicable, other than the stuff that we've already covered about things being simple, clear and concise. I mean, literally, airplane messengers may be employed when distance intervening obstacles on the ground and other factors prevent the use of other means. So that's what it's talking about. It's, it's actually talking, to take it one step further, homing pigeons are a means of communication from front to rear when other means are failed. So that's where we're at. I'm not gonna dive into all those things, even though they are interesting and fascinating, and we can, I'm sure, learn something, but we're not gonna dive too deep. So that's- That's kind of where it wraps up. And as I, as I mentioned before, the, the 1944 version, if you, if you look at that, the, the, other than the differences than what I pointed out,

• 2:13:07Jocko Willink?

  there's an entire big section of air power and, and how you utilize it. And then there's more granular tactics, but again, we're, it's a little bit homing pigeon-ish, you know, not, not readily applicable as leaders.

• 2:13:25Jocko Willink?

  But the, but the leadership principles, other than that one sentence that we pointed out, other than that one sentence, it's almost, it, it doesn't change. And it's very similar to the Truppenführung, which is very similar to everything that we talk about all the time. Good leadership requires understanding people.

• 2:13:49Jocko Willink?

  Good leadership means you have to care about your men. You have to, as the book says, show a constant concern for their comfort and welfare. How about you make that a priority as a leader?

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  You can't unnecessarily tax the endurance of the troops.

• 2:14:10Jocko Willink?

  Discipline is the main cohesive force in a unit. Good morale cannot be improvised.

• 2:14:19Jocko Willink?

  And, and finally, through offensive action, through offensive action, the commander exercises his initiative, preserves his, his freedom of action, and imposes his will on the enemy. That's what we need to do is go on the offense on all fronts.

• 2:14:44Jocko Willink?

  Don't wait for orders.

• 2:14:48Jocko Willink?

  Don't wait for the intel to be perfect. And if you have to be on the defense, don't stay there. Look for that moment in time where you can flip the scenario.

• 2:15:02Jocko Willink?

  Go on the offense, take ground. Move forward and impose your will on the enemy. And yes, that does translate to business and it certainly translates to what you do with your life. You go on offense when you wake up in the morning.

• 2:15:20Jocko Willink?

  That's what you do.

• 2:15:22Jocko Willink?

  Don't wait to react. You'll end up on the defense. And you will eventually get taken out.

• 2:15:31Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I got for this one. Anything else? Crazy, isn't it?

• 2:15:38Dave Berke?

  So good, man.

• 2:15:39Jocko Willink?

  Somebody will reach out to me and tell me who wrote this.

• 2:15:42Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:43Jocko Willink?

  That's what's gonna happen.

• 2:15:43Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  Somebody will reach out to me. Uh, somebody reached out to me. I've got a track on the FM one tac three. I've got a master, I think it's a master gunnery sergeant that was in the room.

• 2:16:02Jocko Willink?

  Who is a Vietnam guy.

• 2:16:04Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Who's like, oh. You know, it's, I, I, I wanna say his son.

• 2:16:10Jocko Willink?

  I think his son reached out to me. Hey, just kinda F, or maybe it was one of the guys that served with him. Hey, just FYI. You know, this guy was in the room, had a big part writing it. And you know, if you wanna, if you wanna ask him some questions, I'm like, uh, 100%. Unfortunately, since Colonel Pogue was probably 48 years old when he was doing this, we won't get him in the room. We don't need him in the room though.

• 2:16:35Dave Berke?

  You know, the timing of that, when you start, when you look at the timing of when they're written, I mean, the takeaway you think about is you learn the hardest lessons from the most difficult situations. And you learn the hardest lessons from the most challenging environments with your team. And just think about how different the world was from 1920 to 1940. And then from 1941 to 1943.

• 2:17:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and even if you looked at, if you had a closed mind and you were looking at World War I, even if Colonel Pogue served in World War I, what he took away from that was like, listen, when I say charge, there's problems, there's people that don't charge when I say charge, that's horrible. He might have been emphatically saying, listen, obedience is the most important thing. And there were some guys that came back and, you know, when he said it the first time, they were like, well, hey, I know you were a platoon commander, but like, I was over here and we actually needed to think about what we were doing. Then after three years of war, they just shut him down and said, hey, the methods that you used in World War I sucked. And if we would have trained our troops to say, hey, boss, that's a dumb idea.

• 2:17:44Jocko Willink?

  We should not get up and charge this. We should not go and online at 0600 when the bugle sounds. I'm not doing it. And we should not do it, should not do this because we are going to lose 480 men when that bugle sounds and that's stupid.

• 2:18:04Dave Berke?

  Yeah. Cause we're gonna get nothing.

• 2:18:06Jocko Willink?

  Cause we're gonna get nothing out of it.

• 2:18:10Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what we want. And that's what this whole book begs for. At least, at least that, at least the the other guys in the room beg for people think. That's what they beg for. Use your initiative. Question your boss. If your boss can't explain why we're doing something, then he's doing it wrong.

• 2:18:34Dave Berke?

  And a leader who has subordinates that push back and go, hey, boss, hey, I don't get this. I don't think this is right.

• 2:18:42Dave Berke?

  That's the best leadership you can have. I want my guys to go, hey, hang on. I don't understand this. That's the best feedback I could possibly get, which is them saying, timeout. I don't understand. We need to keep talking about this as opposed to one of two things, this sort of this blind loyalty where they just do whatever I say because there's no way I've got it all right. Or worse, they think this guy's an idiot. And it's not even worth talking to him about it. How disconnected those people are. You, if you're a leader, you want your people pushing back. You want them asking you hard questions. And if you can't answer their questions, you have more work to do.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  Yep, and, and if you're smart, the ones that you will charge with answering those questions is those men themselves that are asking them. Cause if they say, why are we coming in from the west? You say, well, I thought it looked good. Please tell me why you don't think that's gonna work. Go do a better map study than I did, by the way, cause I got three other elements that I'm looking at, but cool. You come up with a better plan, please. We're standing by for that. So, yeah, these, these principles of combat, man. These principles of leadership.

• 2:19:55Jocko Willink?

  They just don't change and it's so, it's crazy that in 2019, right now, you and I can work with leaders, you and I can meet leaders that are 100% aligned with Colonel Pogue. They're 100% aligned with Colonel Pogue. Their attitude is, listen, hey, what I want is people just to do what I tell them to do. And God, that sounds good, doesn't it? This sounds great. Hey, if these guys just do what I tell them to do. Here's the problem, you're not that freaking smart. You don't even know what they should do. How can you? You're not on the front lines. You're not seeing what's happening. You're not in that manufacturing, you're not on that line. You're not on that construction site. You're not in that, in that meeting.

• 2:20:40Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're, you're supposed to be looking up and out. So how can you know what's going on down there? You don't.

• 2:20:48Jocko Willink?

  Let your people lead.

• 2:20:51Jocko Willink?

  Let them lead. All right. So, um, speaking of going on offense, we kinda wanna go on offense in our lives. I think that's a smart thing to do. Train jujitsu. Train jujitsu. How many things you will be able to relate to jujitsu is infinite. It's gonna make you a better leader. It's gonna make you a better boss. It's gonna make you a better follower. It's gonna make you a better dad, make you a better mom. Make you a better human being. And, and hopefully you get your kids doing it too. It's gonna help them even more. Get them in the game. So yeah, jujitsu, if you need jujitsu gi, then get one from a place called Origin, originmaine.com where

• 2:21:36Jocko Willink?

  We're not just up there selling gees. What we're doing is up there bringing manufacturing back to America. That's what we're doing. That's where it belongs. Highest quality. It supports this podcast. If you like this podcast, go to Origin and get something that supports the podcast, but more important, like I said, it supports

• 2:21:59Jocko Willink?

  the United States of America. It supports the community up there. That's what we're doing. So, Origin Maine, you can get t-shirts, you can get joggers, which I personally don't wear, but I gotta, I gotta say, uh, hoodies and jeans, by the way, jeans, best jeans ever. Do you ever wear jeans, Dave?

• 2:22:21Dave Berke?

  I cannot remember the last time I wore jeans. And I know that's

• 2:22:25Jocko Willink?

  You just wear shorts.

• 2:22:26Dave Berke?

  I wear shorts all the time. When I lived in Virginia, my criteria for shorts is it had to be below freezing.

• 2:22:32Jocko Willink?

  So when you get a gig in New York City in January and you're flying out there, what do you wear on the plane?

• 2:22:38Dave Berke?

  Shorts.

• 2:22:39Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:22:39Dave Berke?

  Shorts and an Echelon Front t-shirt or a, uh, Origin Maine t-shirt. I might bring a hoodie if I think it's gonna be chilly.

• 2:22:47Jocko Willink?

  Check. So, 100% you're wearing shorts?

• 2:22:52Dave Berke?

  100%. Now, here's, here's, here's one, I'll throw a little caveat.

• 2:22:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so 99%.

• 2:22:57Dave Berke?

  Guess what I don't have yet?

• 2:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang. I'll tell you what, so that's, that's, I'm sorry, you know, I see what you're doing. So, right now, we have the heavyweight jeans, and they're, they're not, they're not heavyweight, they're not heavier weight than, they're just normal jeans. I got jeans right now that are lightweight jeans, and they're freaking the best things ever.

• 2:23:22Dave Berke?

  All right. There is one thing that will push me off the 100% shorts. That's the one thing. So that's my caveat.

• 2:23:28Jocko Willink?

  We got the material in, um, it's, you know, made in America, woven, grown in America. So anyways, yep, jeans, the, I'm gonna call, I think the, the name of the jeans.

• 2:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Is gonna be Mekong 68. Because if you don't know this, the Vietnam SEALs, my forefathers, the people that gave me everything I have today, in the Mekong Delta of Vietnam, the fatigues that we were, that the SEALs were issued, weren't durable enough for the operations that they were doing, so they wore blue jeans. And so, Mekong 68.

• 2:24:13Jocko Willink?

  Jeans, and also, we got boots. We got Origin Boots, they're awesome, handmade in Maine. Check them out. They're ready for preorder right now. So, order some. And then we got supplements, joint warfare, krill oil, Discipline, Discipline Go. And then we've got Discipline ready to drink in a can.

• 2:24:42Jocko Willink?

  Which is gonna shock the world. Dude. So, you had some Discipline Go pill before this podcast. Yes. I was looking at you, because I did too. I was looking at you and I was like, we are connected. I was like, I, I hear what you're putting out. Yeah, man. Uh, yeah, so you get all those good supplements, you get mulk, you can get Warrior Kid Mulk, strawberry, chocolate, mint, whatever, the best stuff in the world. Yes. No sugar. You, you would swear that it's sweetened with sugar. Yep. But it's not. It's miraculous. And then Jocka White Tea, so good, so good. It's been

• 2:25:25Jocko Willink?

  a hot summer in San Diego, California, and I've been burning through the Jocka White Tea in a can. All those things, all good to go. And then we have another store called Jaco's Store where you can get rash guards, t-shirts, hats, hoodies, whatever, a bunch of stuff on there if you wanna, as Echo Charles says, if you want to represent while you're on the path, he seems to think that gets the message across, he could be right. We don't know.

• 2:25:54Dave Berke?

  He might be right. There's some evidence out there. I saw on Twitter the other day, a guy posted something that his wife said, hey, you got a birthday coming up. Is there anything you want? And his answer was, we have a store. It's called Jaco's Store. And that was his answer to his wife. It's getting out there.

• 2:26:09Jocko Willink?

  That is legit. Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco's Store. That's what Echo usually says about that. Subscribe to the podcast, wherever you subscribe to podcasts, leave a review. So I can read your review and be A, entertained, or B, informed about your critique points. So, that's good. Echo seems to think people don't subscribe. So, maybe it's hard to get people to subscribe to a podcast because they think it fills up their phone or something. I don't know. But anyways, if you don't subscribe, subscribe. Also check out the Warrior Kid Podcast. We are working always to try and get more Warrior Kid Podcast done. Because I know parents are mad at me when I don't release them.

• 2:26:53Dave Berke?

  Yes.

• 2:26:54Jocko Willink?

  Because they listen to the same podcast. I think there's 23 of them right now. There's 23? Yeah, I think there's 23. So, I owe, I try and put them out in threes for some reason. I don't even know why. I have one in the bank. I'll do two more. Sorry. But, check it out and then get some Warrior Kid soap. IrishOaksRanch.com. Aiden, he sold his thousandth package the other day. Thousand, he's, I think he's 13 now. But, you know, he's just getting after it. So, stay clean. IrishOaksRanch.com. YouTube channel, there's a YouTube channel you can subscribe to. You can see what Dave Berke looks like. You can see what I look like. You can see us laughing and carrying on. You can see our expressions.

• 2:27:36Jocko Willink?

  You can see what we look like when we're talking about Colonel Pogue, my new arch enemy in the world.

• 2:27:45Jocko Willink?

  And you can see Echo's completely overly enhanced videos where things are blowing up. It's the worst overuse of special effects. Walls are being smashed. Walls are being smashed, things are exploding.

• 2:28:04Jocko Willink?

  But a lot of people like them, including Echo. Psychological Warfare, if you need that little, a little shot in the brain. If you need it, you can get it from Psychological Warfare on iTunes, MP3 platforms of all kinds. Flipsidecanvas.com, that's Dakota Meyer's company and he's making.

• 2:28:26Jocko Willink?

  Shot in the arm that you can hang on the wall. That's what it is. A shot in the arm that you can hang on the wall so you wake up every morning, you can see something that says, "Discipline equals freedom."

• 2:28:39Jocko Willink?

  I've got some books. The next book to come out is called Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual.

• 2:28:48Jocko Willink?

  You can preorder it right now if you want the first edition. I was talking to my publisher the other day and we're talking about what to do. I said, "Listen, my people, they want the first edition." And I want them to know that they got the first edition. So we're going to do something, I'm not 100% sure yet, but something to indicate, at least that's the plan. Something to indicate that you got that first edition. So you get one chance to be on the first edition train. And then you're forever, well, I guess you could buy a used one for thousands of dollars off of eBay. If you missed the initial first edition train. And you don't want to let that happen.

• 2:29:32Jocko Willink?

  So Leadership Strategy and Tactics really break down this stuff on a granular level, on how to apply it in specific situations that you're in.

• 2:29:45Jocko Willink?

  Pre-order that one now. Way of the Warrior Kid. There's three of them. The most recent is Where There's a Will.

• 2:29:52Jocko Willink?

  Your daughter is seems to be mega on the path, right?

• 2:29:58Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:58Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you gotta be so proud.

• 2:30:02Dave Berke?

  Dude, she is dialed in, man. I'm stoked. And we actually were talking about it the other day. She is. She had to write a little letter. All the kids in that started school, they had to write a little bio about themselves and kind of put it up on the wall to introduce themselves to the class. And inside that biography, it was talking about things that are important to you. What are the things you like? She used the phrase, discipline. She used the phrase, ownership. She said, "Good people don't make excuses." I didn't even know she wrote it until I went back to school that a couple of weeks ago and I read it, took a picture of it. I'm like, man, this kid is so far ahead of where I was at that age. It's

• 2:30:42Dave Berke?

  Uncle Jake's been a good influence in her life.

• 2:30:44Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake, he has lessons for everyone, but the problem is, kids don't listen to their parents like they listen to Uncle Jake. It's just the way it is. My own kids don't listen to me as much as they listen to Uncle Jake. That's just the way it is. They're programmed to rebel against you. They have to. Otherwise, they'll be living at home when they're 38 years old. You don't want that. You want them to rebel against you. But when they look outside for guidance, you want them to find the right guidance. There's Uncle Jake, standing at a rigid parade rest, ready to put out the word.

• 2:31:18Dave Berke?

  And if you're a parent, you've now know, and you're listening, you now know you have those resources available to you. Because if you're like most parents, when your kid rebels, you know what most of us do? We squash that, which is the worst thing you can do.

• 2:31:30Jocko Willink?

  Push them away.

• 2:31:31Dave Berke?

  Is push them away further. And now you can say, hey, look, I understand. And now you've got some other, you've got some flanking maneuvers you can implement and have them, because they're going to think they're figuring it out on their own, which in some ways they are, but the reason they're even getting there in the first place is because of you.

• 2:31:46Jocko Willink?

  Legit. So Way of the Warrior Kid, one, two, and three. The first one's called Way of the Warrior Kid. The second one's Mark's Mission. The third one is Way of the Warrior Kid Through Where There's a Will. Got Mikey and the Dragons. You gonna, like, I just had this, uh, when I was on with Theo Von. This guy had, he had called in the last time and had a kid on the way. He was super freaked out and scared and he was like, what should I do? And, you know, it's like, okay, here's a plan to go forward. And then we called him yesterday, called the guy back. And he's like, yeah, I got the kid and it's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. In fact, it's actually amazing. And I was like, yeah, those dragons aren't as small.

• 2:32:29Jocko Willink?

  Those dragons aren't as big as you think they're gonna be. So, Mikey and the Dragon. Teach your kids to overcome, teach your kids to stand up, teach your kids to understand what fear is and how they can actually react to it in a positive way.

• 2:32:42Jocko Willink?

  Mikey and the Dragons. Get that book for kids that you know. Man, that's another book I wish I had when I was little. Uh, this one goes Freedom Field Manual. How to Get After It. Yes, you need that manual. That's another one. You, what do you need to read to that a day? Read one page, read one page and calibrate your brain for the day. That's what it is. Brain calibration. Calibrate your brain one page a day. It'll take you three minutes to read and you'll be calibrated. And then, of course, there's the two books that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. Extreme Ownership and The Dichotomy of Leadership, talking about all the things that we've been talking about today.

• 2:33:23Jocko Willink?

  Leadership. How to lead, what to look out for, how to overcome those obstacles. We have Echelon Front, which is our leadership consultancy. And what we do is solve problems through leadership. All of your problems are leadership problems. That's what we do. Dave Berke, got him, got Andrew Paul, who was on last time. It's, it's, it's all of us. That's what we do. We do it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. We are working with companies. And then on top of that, we have EF Online, which is.

• 2:34:00Jocko Willink?

  It's interactive training online where you can learn the leadership principles that we talk about. Look, the books are are great. The podcast is a great come to the muster. All these things are good. None of them work alone. You you you want to give yourself as many advantages as possible. Get on efonline.com and learn these leadership principles deeper, more granular.

• 2:34:29Dave Berke?

  Leadership is a skill. It requires reps, reps after reps after reps. Musters an awesome rep. This podcast is an awesome rep. The books are awesome reps. EF Online gives you an unlimited number of reps to go get, and you need to get reps when you're learning leadership, period.

• 2:34:50Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of the muster, the next one we're doing is in Sydney, Australia. The other two sold out. Chicago sold out. Denver sold out. Sydney's going to sell out. Extreme ownership.com if you want to come. And when it sells out, there's no caveats.

• 2:35:05Dave Berke?

  Denver was sold out. No additional seat existed.

• 2:35:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you've got fire marshals. Like, it's not like we can bend the rules. Sorry. We can't put people at risk because they want to come to the muster. That's not the way it works. So if you want to come, we're looking forward to coming down to Australia and getting after it with y'all. And of course, we have EF Overwatch now, which is we're taking proven leaders from the Spec Ops community, the Combat Aviation community, and we're placing them into companies that need to implement all these leadership principles that we're talking about.

• 2:35:45Jocko Willink?

  You don't need somebody that knows your industry. What you need is someone that knows how to lead. They'll figure out your industry. Trust me. They they know how to adapt and overcome. They will get there and get in the game. If you want that, go to efoverwatch.com.

• 2:35:58Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to continue this discussion with us, which I can promise you, Dave and I spend a lot of time together. When we do spend time together, I shouldn't say we spend a lot of time together. When we spend time together, because we're on the road a lot, when we spend time together, we talk about leadership all the time. That's all we just talk about. Just talk about leadership. So if you want to talk about leadership with us, cool. You can find us on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram, do Fassen Buch. Dave is at Dave Berke. David's at David R Burke. And I am at Jocko Willink. Dave, any closing thoughts on this one?

• 2:36:40Dave Berke?

  Yeah, one parting thought. You're going through the books. Anytime I'm on the podcast, which is completely awesome, I get a lot of hits on social media asking me about the eminently qualified human being project.

• 2:36:52Jocko Willink?

  174.

• 2:36:53Dave Berke?

  174.

• 2:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Podcast 174.

• 2:36:56Dave Berke?

  Let me tell you why you don't have that yet, is because I simply haven't done a good enough job getting it done. It is close, but I am not doing my job. We are getting very close. That is coming out soon. I will, I will finish that project and I'll get that done.

• 2:37:16Jocko Willink?

  What about the app?

• 2:37:18Dave Berke?

  We are, we finished an awesome beta test. Thank you for all of you out there that were dialed in on that. We are close on that as well. And what you're going to see pretty soon is the app getting released and hopefully a digital version of that. But you guys are asking the questions. The answer is, I'm just not doing a good enough job. It's coming soon.

• 2:37:36Jocko Willink?

  The interesting thing about, and I know this, when I said this to you, you were like, what? And I was like, hey, we'll get an app out. You know, we can build an app and release that like soon, as soon as possible. And you're like, well, wouldn't it be easier to like just print a, publish a book? And I'm like, nope. Believe it or not, it's an archaic system. And we're not, I don't, we're not 100% certain of how we're going to roll that out. But the priority is speed, right? The priority of getting the eminently qualified human being app and document book, which we've also

• 2:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Well, we've, we've actually, we actually, see, we, we had a little mission creep, right? Little mission creep because as I'm looking at it, I'm thinking, hey, this is cool. This is awesome, but guess what? There's some protocols that we could give people.

• 2:38:29Dave Berke?

  It grew.

• 2:38:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it grew. So now we've got some protocols in there for kind of standard operating procedures for things that go down in your life.

• 2:38:35Dave Berke?

  And they're really good. They, I didn't have that big picture vision when we started working on it, but we've had some folks contribute to that. A lot of, lot of things have gone into it. It's certainly bigger, but it, it's, it's actually where it needs to be.

• 2:38:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's pretty close right now.

• 2:38:50Dave Berke?

  Dude, it's close, man.

• 2:38:52Jocko Willink?

  We gotta just get it out there. Okay, cool. So that's that. And, um, obviously, once again, we would not even be sitting in this room at all if it were not for our brave and courageous military men and women around the world. So thanks to all of you that have served and those that are currently serving. Thank you. And the same goes to our police and law enforcement. The firefighters out there, the paramedics, the EMTs, the dispatchers, the correctional officers, the border patrol, the secret service. To all the first responders, once again, without you, we cannot live the life that we live here.

• 2:39:36Jocko Willink?

  So thanks to all of you for what you're doing and to both your families that are supporting, that are sacrificing. Thanks to your families as well and to everyone else out there.

• 2:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Life is a war, right? It is a war. That's what it is. At least at a minimum, it's a metaphor for war. It's a fight. And there are people out there and there are things out there that are trying to take you down. There is friction and there are obstacles. And there is complacency.

• 2:40:20Jocko Willink?

  And you might think when I say life's war, you're like, well, not really. But check this out. Listen to me. In this situation that you're in, your life is at stake. Your life is actually at stake right now. What you do with your life is at stake. You are fighting for your life every day. The way that you live it, the mark that you're gonna leave, the legacy that you're gonna leave, the people that you help.

• 2:40:50Jocko Willink?

  The people that you help.

• 2:40:53Jocko Willink?

  The people that you can help move forward, the people that are weak that you can make stronger. All that is gonna come back to you. That is your life and your life is at stake right now, every day, almost as if you are at war. So don't sit back and be on the defense and allow life to happen to you. Don't do that. Instead, go on the offense every day by getting up and getting after it.

• 2:41:26Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Dave Berke and Jaco.

• 2:41:32Jocko Willink?

  Out.