The Tragic History of Witches and Their Furry Friends

Witchy women (and women in general) have historically had a tough go of it. Wes delves into just how unfair things got for those accused of hitching their wagon to Satan, no matter how tenuous the claims turned out to be, even if they weren't human at all. Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/1S71nXsTBjY ~ Dose - Ready to give your liver the support it deserves? Head to https://dosedaily.co/TOOTH Rocket Money - Let Rocket Money help you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and lower your bills—join at https://RocketMoney.com/CLAW Smalls - For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life, when you head to https://Smalls.com/TOOTH. Mint Mobile - Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month with Mint Mobile at https://mintmobile.com/tooth Miracle Brand - Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/tooth and use code TOOTH to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and save over 40% off. Brodo - Head to https://brodo.com/TOOTH for 20% off your first subscription order and use code TOOTH for an additional $10 off. ~ To advertise on the show, contact us! Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/c/toothandclawpodcast ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Wes Larson?

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• 0:45Wes Larson?

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• 1:44Jeff Larson?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome.

• 1:49Jeff Larson?

  Welcome back to an episode of Tooth and Claw Podcast. This is a Halloween podcast where we talk about spooky animals and Wes is a wildlife biologist. So he knows, he also loves horror movies as much as anyone.

• 2:07Wes Larson?

  I do.

• 2:07Jeff Larson?

  So that's a perfect area for him to be in is animal horror movies.

• 2:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Thanks for that intro.

• 2:18Jeff Larson?

  And we have Mike Smith and I'm Jeff Larson.

• 2:22Mike Smith?

  That's all I get? What the heck?

• 2:24Wes Larson?

  I think I balked at that. I love horror movies as much as anyone, because it is horror movie season. I've been getting into it and I've like followed some Instagram accounts. And there are people out there where it's like, that is their only thing is horror movies. It's kind of intense how crazy people get about horror movies, but they're fun. I get it. It's a release.

• 2:47Jeff Larson?

  Crazy are the people who like do the stuff their movies are about.

• 2:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 2:52Jeff Larson?

  This time of year.

• 2:53Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 2:54Jeff Larson?

  Serial killers and witches.

• 2:56Mike Smith?

  Putting a dirty needle in an apple for trick or treaters.

• 3:01Wes Larson?

  Her weight, that's.

• 3:03Wes Larson?

  Drugs.

• 3:04Jeff Larson?

  If someone gave me an apple, I would not fall for, I would not be eating the needle.

• 3:09Mike Smith?

  You'd eat around it.

• 3:10Wes Larson?

  Just putting like a couple hundred dollars.

• 3:12Jeff Larson?

  I would eat the apple at Halloween.

• 3:14Mike Smith?

  That's a waste. Okay, whatever.

• 3:16Jeff Larson?

  Mike.

• 3:18Mike Smith?

  Yes, Jeff.

• 3:19Jeff Larson?

  You look like a president who was president for eight years in a row. Your hair.

• 3:23Mike Smith?

  Bill?

• 3:25Jeff Larson?

  No, Obama. You remember those pictures of Obama like before his presidency and after? That's what you look like to me.

• 3:32Mike Smith?

  Aged like 70 years somehow.

• 3:34Jeff Larson?

  Gray hair.

• 3:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I like.

• 3:36Jeff Larson?

  Just went gray on you all of a sudden, huh?

• 3:38Wes Larson?

  Did you see a ghost?

• 3:39Mike Smith?

  No, I didn't.

• 3:40Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 3:41Wes Larson?

  Cause that can turn your hair gray.

• 3:42Jeff Larson?

  You got paranormal activity?

• 3:44Wes Larson?

  Well, speaking of paranormal activity, you guys remember there were some demons in that movie. And guess who demons are sometimes best friends with?

• 3:54Mike Smith?

  One time a drawer opened by itself, but I guess we can count that as a demon.

• 3:59Wes Larson?

  Witches. Demons love witches. There's like a strong connection between those two, actually. And you guys may have noticed there's been an uptick in witches these days, right?

• 4:10Jeff Larson?

  Because.

• 4:10Mike Smith?

  Yeah, down with the patriarchy.

• 4:12Jeff Larson?

  I think it's we got too woke.

• 4:14Wes Larson?

  Too woke.

• 4:16Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Mike Smith?

  Yeah, reel that back in a little.

• 4:18Jeff Larson?

  We used to take care of witches, you know?

• 4:20Wes Larson?

  And now we're just let them run wild.

• 4:22Jeff Larson?

  Drown them, burn them. And now it's like, oh no, you can be a witch if you want to.

• 4:26Wes Larson?

  I'm pro witch, but I figured we'd probably have a dissenting opinion here.

• 4:33Wes Larson?

  But I do think witches are about as accepted as they've ever been, aside from maybe like way back in antiquity. And I'm going to be honest with you guys, when it comes to Halloween and horror stories and horror movies. Witches are kind of the, the ones that often affect me the most. It's probably demons and then witches. And it might be because there's like a historical basis to them. Or it might be because one of my all time favorite horror movies is The Witch. And I like was haunted by that movie. But for whatever reason it is, like witch stories can really get under my skin.

• 5:07Mike Smith?

  Which ones?

• 5:07Wes Larson?

  Generally. I knew it.

• 5:10Mike Smith?

  Yes, you just told us. It was like, nevermind, scratch that.

• 5:13Wes Larson?

  But I think they're fun and I'm not talking about like practical magic, like using witch powers to stir their coffee kind of witches. I mean more like the baby mashing, black Philip worshipping kind of witches, you know, like the, the intense ones.

• 5:29Jeff Larson?

  Not, not Hermione.

• 5:31Wes Larson?

  Not Hermione. No, I do love Hermione though.

• 5:34Jeff Larson?

  She's only half witch too.

• 5:36Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 5:39Mike Smith?

  When some people say she shouldn't even belong.

• 5:42Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Jeff Larson?

  Malfoy said that, right?

• 5:45Wes Larson?

  Right. Jeff, you'd definitely be a Slytherin, right? Like, there's no real question.

• 5:51Jeff Larson?

  I always think it's crazy when people like identify as Slytherin.

• 5:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah, where it's just like, oh, it's.

• 5:57Jeff Larson?

  They're like, oh yeah, I'm a Slytherin. It's like, oh, so you're just an asshole?

• 6:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 6:02Jeff Larson?

  Like you're just the worst person.

• 6:04Wes Larson?

  Oh yeah, that's true. You would be a Slytherin then. You'd be, you're definitely a Hufflepuff.

• 6:09Mike Smith?

  Yeah. He's the puff.

• 6:11Jeff Larson?

  I feel like I'm not social enough. You're the one with a million friends.

• 6:16Mike Smith?

  No, Wes is Ravenclaw because he's an egghead. Jeff would be a Gryffindor. He's brave and cool.

• 6:23Jeff Larson?

  I do kinda think I would be Gryffindor.

• 6:25Wes Larson?

  Well, when it comes to witches, like scary witches, where do they rank for you guys on? Things that actually get you in like movies and even in real life, like how afraid of you are of, of witches? How, I didn't say that well.

• 6:39Mike Smith?

  Are they afraid of me? Oh, they should be. I'm coming for them.

• 6:42Wes Larson?

  How much? How much are you afraid of witches? Like where do they rank on your, on your horror scared level?

• 6:49Mike Smith?

  Probably like a billion.

• 6:50Wes Larson?

  A billion.

• 6:51Mike Smith?

  Out of a trillion though, it's like a huge, it's a big.

• 6:54Jeff Larson?

  So you're not scared.

• 6:55Wes Larson?

  Not that much at all.

• 6:56Mike Smith?

  Not real, I actually, I'm not too afraid of, I'm really happy when I see a witch pop up in a movie because they're always fun characters.

• 7:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Mike Smith?

  Always.

• 7:04Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I'd say two billion out of a trillion.

• 7:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 7:07Jeff Larson?

  Okay. So still not very scared of them.

• 7:09Wes Larson?

  But like a little. Scared.

• 7:12Wes Larson?

  I like this rating. Yeah, I think that's what it is, is it's fun when they pop up and you just really don't know what's going to happen when a witch shows up in a movie. But I do think when we talk about witches, the image that usually pops in our head is one of a woman. And there's a reason for that that we'll get into in a little bit. But witches don't have to be women. Hell, they don't even have to be human, apparently.

• 7:35Jeff Larson?

  Well, they have to be, they have to have like a male or female gender, right?

• 7:40Wes Larson?

  They don't, no, we're not.

• 7:42Jeff Larson?

  Can be non-binary?

• 7:43Wes Larson?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 7:44Jeff Larson?

  Nice.

• 7:45Wes Larson?

  They don't even have to be human. So in today's episode, we're going to go over the haunted history of animals that have been accused of witchcraft. But before we get into that, I want to get into a general history of witches and witchcraft, just to kind of build the scene a little bit. Basically, we can trace the belief in magic and that certain people in society were special. And able to manipulate the natural world and use magic all the way back to the earliest societies that we have records for. But ancient Mesopotamia is one of the places where some of the characteristics of witchcraft that we are still familiar with today. May have gotten their start. And during that time, there were thought to be practitioners of magic that were doing it for the general good of society.

• 8:28Wes Larson?

  And then other magicians that were communing with evil entities and using their magic to cause harm. And this theme carries throughout the history of witchcraft. But these witches that are doing bad magic and communing with demons were often people that were more vulnerable in society, including women. And if someone's accused of being a witch back then, they could do this thing called enact the code of Hamarabi. And the accused person, like if someone's accused of being a witch back then in ancient Mesopotamia, they would have to go jump in a holy river. And if they drowned, they were deemed guilty and the accuser got to keep their estate. But if they survived, they got to take the estate of their accuser.

• 9:09Jeff Larson?

  Oh, that's kind of cool.

• 9:10Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's kind of the opposite of what they did in more modern times too, where like witches that were accused, if they floated, they were deemed witches.

• 9:18Jeff Larson?

  Right.

• 9:18Wes Larson?

  So it's kind of like a no win situation. This actually was like, no, if you survive, you get to like take your accuser's property.

• 9:25Jeff Larson?

  Like a witch will drown.

• 9:26Mike Smith?

  Dude.

• 9:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Mike Smith?

  I would take advantage of that. I would just be trying to like convince everyone I was a witch. Just like everyone in town accuses me and then I get all their stuff.

• 9:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 9:36Mike Smith?

  And they all accuse.

• 9:37Wes Larson?

  A bunch of people that you know can't swim.

• 9:40Jeff Larson?

  If you're a witch, you should be able to come up with like a floating spell. That doesn't seem too complicated.

• 9:47Mike Smith?

  It's a good point.

• 9:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Mike Smith?

  Maybe the drowning way is a better test.

• 9:51Wes Larson?

  All of this is to illustrate the witchcraft has been around for a while and that some of the ideas about

• 9:56Mike Smith?

  You'd have to maybe, you could easily come up with a spell that would make you sink as well. So who knows?

• 10:02Wes Larson?

  But why would you do that?

• 10:03Jeff Larson?

  So any, any people with like a lot of property, you guys start questioning if they're a witch.

• 10:09Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Mm hmm. Like landlords.

• 10:12Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Wes Larson?

  Landlords might be witches.

• 10:15Mike Smith?

  They kind of are, in my opinion.

• 10:16Wes Larson?

  So these ideas have been around for a while and the ideas of how to find and deal with witches have persisted for thousands of years. But in the Western world, the fear and fascination with witches really kicked into high gear in the Middle Ages. And basically that's because of Christianity. As Christianity took root in Europe, religions that were polytheistic or paganist that worshiped nature and were seen as this direct rejection of Christianity. And that was because at the time Christianity was like very binary in the way it viewed the world. There was good and there was evil. There was God and there was the devil. And Christian leaders basically said, if you're not worshiping God, if you're not worshiping Christ,

• 10:56Wes Larson?

  you must be worshiping the devil. And any paganistic beliefs that like weren't Christian beliefs were labeled as witchcraft. And witchcraft was pretty much thought to be pure evil, baby murdering cannibals kind of evil at the time. That's what they thought of witches. Yeah.

• 11:11Jeff Larson?

  Well, and Jesus is kind of a wizard.

• 11:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I mean, he really is. Like, there's definitely people at the time saying he was a witch.

• 11:19Jeff Larson?

  Or water to wine, the fish and bread. Yeah. Like that's some Dumbledore stuff right there.

• 11:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And I do think we're falling into like this, this gendered thing already of like, when it's a man, we call them a wizard. And when it's a woman, we call them a witch. Men can be witches. Like this isn't something that is only women and

• 11:41Jeff Larson?

  I go by Harry Potter rules. Well, I'm sorry.

• 11:44Wes Larson?

  There are plenty of men that were killed and accused of witchcraft throughout the times that we're talking about.

• 11:50Mike Smith?

  Men were male witch, Wes.

• 11:52Wes Larson?

  Heavily skewed toward women. Um, I can't, I don't know if I can name a female witch. Yeah, I can. But just because I did this episode. All right.

• 12:01Jeff Larson?

  Like they, I think they were wrong calling the men witches.

• 12:05Wes Larson?

  Okay. Yeah. You're, you've, you've lobbied your complaint with the terminology. But for this episode and the research I did, there are plenty of men that were, that were accused of witchcraft.

• 12:16Jeff Larson?

  I'll, I'll buy in.

• 12:17Wes Larson?

  During the Renaissance, this intensified. In 1484, the Pope said that witches were people who had made an explicit pact with Satan. And then a couple of years later, the Malais Malefacterium came out, which was a book that a priest created. It was pretty much a super misogynistic manual for hunting witches. And then it really hit fever pitch in the second half of the 1500s, when England and Scotland both enacted laws against witchcraft and black magic. And they started persecuting and killing accused witches on a really large scale. There's a lot of numbers out there. There's people that say that millions of, of women specifically were killed during this time. A number that I found was around 90,000 accused witches that were killed in Europe in a few hundred years.

• 13:03Wes Larson?

  But then there's numbers that are far less too. So it's really hard to put a number on it. But a lot of people were killed in a lot of really terrible ways, like burning at the stake or drowning or pressing where they would just put like larger and larger stones on someone until they were smushed. Um, and it's no surprise that a large percentage of these accused witches were women. And we've joked about this and I, I just want

• 13:25Jeff Larson?

  You know, it's the worst one?

• 13:27Wes Larson?

  What?

• 13:27Jeff Larson?

  The iron, uh, bowl thing?

• 13:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Jeff Larson?

  Where you like put them in the iron thing and then put a fire under it and then it like starts screaming.

• 13:39Mike Smith?

  Oh yeah, that one is.

• 13:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that one's bad.

• 13:41Jeff Larson?

  I just went to the torture museum in Chicago. So well versed on this right now.

• 13:48Mike Smith?

  Speaking of that text you cited, Wes, the Malefacterium or whatever, it was actually used. We talked about it in our No Pants episode, but Haxson, that old, that's like a hundred year old movie that just shows witchcraft happening. Not like, it's not documentary. It's all make believe, but it's pretty fun. Seeing like words directly used from that text and put on the screen from like a hundred year old movie.

• 14:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And it's, it's also an AFI song. Um, but

• 14:18Mike Smith?

  Oh, that is cool. This is cooler. Sorry.

• 14:20Wes Larson?

  Cut all, everything I said. No, no, no. I also, uh, I think the thing that's really interesting to think about is that for a long time, this was like the scary thing in society. Like there really wasn't, we have like a rich, uh, a rich selection of monsters and like horror icons and everything to pick from these days. But for a long time, when it came to the supernatural and like scary things to be afraid of in the dark, it was witches and witchcraft. Like that's what it was. Yeah. I, I do want to touch on like why these people were often women that were accused. Cause I do think this is important. We joked about it a little bit, but the thing that's, that's important to realize is that women were just

• 15:02Wes Larson?

  looked down on for a long, for a long time. And you know, still today in some people's societies and viewpoints, they look down on women. Women were thought to be during these times, like physically, mentally and spiritually weaker than men. And therefore more vulnerable to the devil's attacks. They were also believed to be more carnal than men, which is like kind of a laugh when you look at the history of who's more carnal and more easily seduced by Satan and his demons. And that is something that's persisted like in the thought with witches up until today. Like people often associate them with women. And it sucks that like that vulnerability was exploited.

• 15:42Wes Larson?

  Uh, you know, the social vulnerability to like persecute them even more than they were already being persecuted. So when colonists left Europe for America and they settled in New England, you better believe that they brought this fear of witches and witchcraft and a lot of this inherent sexism with them. And whenever anything went wrong, like crop failures, diseases, unexplained, unexplained pregnancies, issues with the local indigenous people, witches were a convenient scapegoat and they were most often women. And a lot of witches were tried and killed in the 1600s in the US. And unlike today's rules, they were deemed guilty until proven innocent, not innocent until proven guilty. It was the opposite.

• 16:24Wes Larson?

  They were not given the right to counsel. So many of them had to defend themselves and most of them lost their trials. And the most famous of these incidents was the Salem witch trials in colonial Massachusetts in 1692 and 1693.

• 16:38Mike Smith?

  That's why I've always said we should be operating according to Hammurabi's code still. They had it figured out.

• 16:44Wes Larson?

  We're always saying that. Yeah. Just chuck them in the holy river. Yeah.

• 16:49Mike Smith?

  Jeff went there.

• 16:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 16:51Jeff Larson?

  And guess what?

• 16:51Wes Larson?

  What?

• 16:52Jeff Larson?

  I'll tell you what.

• 16:53Wes Larson?

  What?

• 16:53Jeff Larson?

  They sure did kill some witches there. But man, did that create a lot more witches. Cause that place is full of witches right now.

• 17:04Mike Smith?

  Streisand effect.

• 17:07Wes Larson?

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• 17:48Wes Larson?

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• 18:33Wes Larson?

  Try it for three months and see how you feel.

• 18:37Wes Larson?

  All right. So the Salem witch trials, just for a really brief dip into this, it all started when some young girls who were probably acting on orders from their family or were just kind of bored and mean girls, started having epileptic fits and screaming and saying they were being poked and pricked by witchcraft. And they accused women that were on the lower rungs of society. They blamed three women for affecting them. Tatuba, who was a Caribbean, a Caribbean woman and was enslaved.

• 19:07Wes Larson?

  Sarah Good, a homeless beggar and Sarah Osborne, who was an elderly impoverished woman. So they picked women that like, no one was going to come to their defense.

• 19:16Jeff Larson?

  Hmm. Smart.

• 19:18Wes Larson?

  All three of these women were brought before the local magistrates. They're interrogated for several days. Osborne claimed

• 19:24Mike Smith?

  You're right, Jeff, but I mean, come on. Didn't need that little bit of editorializing.

• 19:34Wes Larson?

  Osborne claimed in Jeff's not beating the slither in accusations right now. Osborne claims innocence, good claims innocence, but Tatuba confessed. And again, they were interrogated for days and we know, and we're going to talk more about what interrogation can do to a person. But basically she said, the devil came to me, he bid me serve him. And she described all these images of black dogs, red cats, yellow birds, a tall man with white hair who wanted her to sign a book. And she admitted that she signed the book.

• 20:09Jeff Larson?

  Sounds like me.

• 20:10Wes Larson?

  And claimed there were several other witches looking to destroy this community. Uh huh. You have to think these other two women were like, uh, we're not with her, you know?

• 20:21Jeff Larson?

  That's tough.

• 20:22Wes Larson?

  She does not speak for us, but unfortunately they were all lumped in together. The seeds were planted, it got out of control. And then anyone that was skeptical or defensive of these women was also accused of witchcraft and put into prison. So over 200 people were accused of witchcraft during the Salem witch trials. Thirty of them were found guilty, 19 of them were hanged and more than five died in jail. One man was pressed to death, which again means he like had heavy rocks put on him until he died. Okay. I promise I'm getting to the animal part soon, but the thing to remember here is that during this part of history specifically, when witchcraft was kind of the scapegoat for everything bad, it was really easy for it to devolve into hysteria.

• 21:06Wes Larson?

  And if someone you loved was accused of witchcraft and then you tried to defend them, there's a good chance that you're also getting accused. And there's really no rules for what kind of evidence they could use to prove that you were a witch. There was even trials where they use people's dreams as evidence that someone was a witch. So like, this was a very hard thing to get out of. Yeah. Once you were accused of being a witch.

• 21:30Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Me and Danielle stayed at like the sheriff's house, who was like the most insane out of everyone. And she thought his spirit was still there. I, I don't really get into that much.

• 21:41Wes Larson?

  Were you just like going around and cussing them out like you do with spirits?

• 21:46Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. I was like, do something if you're watching me.

• 21:50Wes Larson?

  No, Mike, it wasn't their dreams that they were using. It was like an accuser could use your, like, I could be like, I had a dream that Mike was haunting me as a witch. And so he's a witch, you know, like that sort of thing. So it was really just like no holds barred.

• 22:06Jeff Larson?

  It's a bad, I like Martin Luther King Jr.'s dreams better.

• 22:10Wes Larson?

  I agree. All right. When the fear of witches is at a climax in the Europe, in Europe and the US, non-human people, non-human beings, I shouldn't say people, were also sometimes thought to be conduits for Satan and associated with witchcraft. So I want to talk about a few of the animals that were thought to be doing the dark lord's bidding. And after these stories, I'm going to ask you guys whether or not they actually got a witch or if the animal was innocent.

• 22:38Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, that's always confusing to me. Like the demon chose to be in a cat or is he just missed the person and ended up in a cat? You know, why is the cat a demon?

• 22:49Wes Larson?

  We'll get into it and it's not really that they thought it was a demon, but yeah, we'll, we'll talk about it. All right. So what are roosters famous for?

• 22:59Jeff Larson?

  Cockadoodledoo and.

• 23:02Wes Larson?

  Yep.

• 23:03Jeff Larson?

  Uh, strutting?

• 23:04Wes Larson?

  Strutting? Yeah. No, you got them. No, you, okay. Go ahead.

• 23:09Jeff Larson?

  It's just the way you reacted made me think I was being dumb. Cockadoodledoo and.

• 23:13Wes Larson?

  That's what, that's what I was looking for. What are they not famous for though?

• 23:18Jeff Larson?

  Laying eggs?

• 23:19Wes Larson?

  Laying eggs. Jeff, pull it out of the air. One thing that roosters historically.

• 23:27Jeff Larson?

  Good right there, Wes.

• 23:27Wes Larson?

  You did, you did great. You guys nailed both answers. One thing that historically they have not been famous for is laying eggs. But in 1474, people were shocked when a rooster in Basel, Switzerland did precisely that. It laid an egg.

• 23:44Jeff Larson?

  What? To me, that's kind of like the whole witches thing. It's like, sometimes people who don't know better will confuse a male chicken as a chicken that'll lay eggs. They don't do that. Just like sometimes someone who doesn't know witches will be like, that male guy is a witch. And it's like, no, they don't do that.

• 24:06Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 24:07Jeff Larson?

  That male guy.

• 24:08Wes Larson?

  That male guy. Yeah. So with no answer to drawn for how a rooster could have possibly laid an egg in Basel, Switzerland in 1474, it was determined that this rooster must be in league with Satan and that witchcraft uh, was at play and the rooster was taken from its owner and a trial was arranged.

• 24:27Jeff Larson?

  Did they like watch it lay the egg or was it just by an egg?

• 24:30Wes Larson?

  I think it was like the rooster was on its own and it, there was an egg there. Like there's the only, the only way there could have been an egg was from this rooster. Um, so it was taken from its owner, a trial was arranged for this rooster. The defense argued that no evil had been proved against his client and that no harm had been done by it by just simply laying an egg. Also, there was no precedent for Satan making a compact with roosters. So his client should be acquitted. The prosecution countered with the cold, hard fact that roosters didn't need to make a compact with the devil or a witch. They could simply be controlled by the devil or witchcraft and there was precedent for that.

• 25:13Wes Larson?

  And they also argued that an egg could hatch into a basilisk or a cockatrice, which are winged reptilian monsters that would wreak havoc on the townspeople.

• 25:22Jeff Larson?

  Oh, there were, that's what I was going to say. It's like, why don't they just wait to see if the baby is normal or not?

• 25:29Wes Larson?

  Do you want a cockatrice coming out of there, Jeff? And wreaking havoc?

• 25:33Jeff Larson?

  That's a good point. You're scared of what might come out of that egg.

• 25:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Cockatrice, that's like the number one hardest enemy in the first Final Fantasy game. Is it? They'll mess you up. Good.

• 25:44Wes Larson?

  Well.

• 25:44Jeff Larson?

  Now I'm kind of worried about the eggs I have.

• 25:48Wes Larson?

  You should, yeah. You just have like a sword ready when you crack them open. Ultimately, this seemed to be enough for the judge and they decided to play it safe. Accused this rooster of witchcraft and they organized a public execution. And I, I am going to just warn people that are really sensitive to this kind of stuff. We're going to talk about some animals being executed in this episode. But this rooster was tied to a steak and one of its eggs was placed next to it and it was burned at the stake.

• 26:16Jeff Larson?

  One of its eggs. It had a couple.

• 26:18Wes Larson?

  It had multiple eggs. Yeah. So what do you guys think? Was this rooster a witch?

• 26:23Jeff Larson?

  Does the egg was burned at the stake?

• 26:25Wes Larson?

  Uh huh. You can't, uh, Mike, you gotta remember this could be a basilisk or a cockatrice.

• 26:31Jeff Larson?

  When there's just one egg, I was like, no, but now that it's multiple eggs, I'm kind of like, maybe better safe than sorry.

• 26:38Wes Larson?

  Well, now we actually have an answer for what almost certainly happened with this rooster. Basically, sometimes hens can undergo spontaneous sex changes. Hens have two ovaries, but only the one on the left is usually functional. And then when something happens to that ovary, like an ovarian cyst or some other kind of issue with that ovary, sometimes the right one then develops into this kind of combination between an ovary and a testicle. So the left ovary isn't delivering enough estrogen and the right ovary is over delivering testosterone. And when that happens, the hen can start turning into what looks like a rooster.

• 27:18Wes Larson?

  It molts into male plumage. Uh, it can like start taking on these physical characteristics of a rooster. It might start crowing. It even might start trying to mate with hens, sometimes successfully even. They can still potentially lay eggs and that's almost certainly what happened here.

• 27:38Jeff Larson?

  How unique is that in the bird world?

• 27:42Wes Larson?

  It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

• 27:45Jeff Larson?

  Man, that's crazy. Trans rights forever. It's a tough argument for the whole two genders crowd, that that's like the way, that's what's natural, you know?

• 27:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Jeff Larson?

  It's like, even in the animal world, it's more than two genders people.

• 28:00Wes Larson?

  I, I thought about that a lot, actually, while I was like researching this part of this episode. And I do, like, when we talk about trans rights and like whether or not, you know, it's like biologically possible and everything. I do think it kind of diminishes the whole issue there where it's like, it doesn't matter.

• 28:19Jeff Larson?

  Sure.

• 28:19Wes Larson?

  If it's like, if it's biological, like humanity transcends our biology. And it's more just like, we should let people be who they are, you know, like that's what matters. And so.

• 28:30Jeff Larson?

  To an extent, I wouldn't want Jeffrey Epstein to.

• 28:33Wes Larson?

  Well, if you're not harming anyone, you know, like, don't harm anyone, but.

• 28:38Jeff Larson?

  That's a good qualifier.

• 28:39Wes Larson?

  I don't, yeah. Uh, but I do think this is an interesting look into things that we understand now that just completely threw people off in a major way a few hundred years ago. Like this was, this rooster was a witch to these people. Um, so it is possible though, that a witch gave that hen the ovarian cyst or that a witch turned it into a rooster. We don't know, but I'm pretty sure that this was just a.

• 29:05Jeff Larson?

  Or that a male rooster laid a demon egg.

• 29:08Wes Larson?

  Yep. Could have been a cockatrice egg and they really, uh.

• 29:11Jeff Larson?

  That's what I still think.

• 29:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. Well, a lot of these stories do revolve around trials. And at some point I do want to do a whole subscriber episode about animals on trial, but I really had to include this next story.

• 29:23Jeff Larson?

  Which we have done one of already.

• 29:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah. But I want to include this next one because the lawyer and it really went over the top for his clients.

• 29:32Jeff Larson?

  Oh, like who? Sylvester Stallone. In what movie? Over the top. Uh, I was thinking what, I was thinking like maybe McConaughey? In A Time To Kill? Hmm. Or. Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men. Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men is the best answer. He goes over the top.

• 29:51Wes Larson?

  All right. Well, to say.

• 29:53Jeff Larson?

  He put his whole life on the line. He starts yelling. Holy cow. That's bad courtroom manners, but it was effective.

• 29:59Wes Larson?

  He yelled in response to being yelled at.

• 30:02Jeff Larson?

  Court jestered.

• 30:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 30:05Wes Larson?

  To say a tune France had a rat problem in 1531 would be an understatement. In fact, there were so many rats that people reported large groups of them devouring everything in sight. And they were acting so maliciously and so deviously that the bishop in the town was convinced that these rats were being controlled by witchcraft and in cahoots with the devil himself.

• 30:28Jeff Larson?

  Hmm, that's a good witch move. Rats.

• 30:32Wes Larson?

  It is a good move, but this bishop was so convinced that these rats were controlled by witchcraft and in cahoots that he did the same thing he would do if a person were accused of witchcraft and he summoned the rats to court to face judgment.

• 30:48Wes Larson?

  Bartholomew de Chisenis, which I'm sure I massacred that name. Mike, you speak French.

• 30:54Mike Smith?

  Chisney, probably.

• 30:56Wes Larson?

  Probably, yeah. They were often, this person was often considered to be the greatest criminal defendant of the time in France. And he was assigned to defend these rats. When the rats didn't show up in court on the day that they were scheduled to begin the trial, Bartholomew was ready with his defense and he said, "My clients are very numerous. Some are old and feeble. Some are sick and some are lame. The roads are bad and the weather's inclement. Some are young and cannot travel far. The way is long and hard and I pray the honorable court to grant further time." And this actually works. The court gives him three more weeks.

• 31:33Wes Larson?

  But they say, you know, you got three weeks to get your clients together. And when those three weeks passed, those satanic rats sure aren't showing up. And Bartholomew is quick to elaborate why. He says, "His clients couldn't safely travel to court because the roads were swarming with cats who would only try to eat them."

• 31:51Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Wes Larson?

  And then the court actually says, "Okay, all cat owners need to restrain your pets or face penalties because we need to make sure these rats can get to court."

• 32:01Jeff Larson?

  Serious? You gotta go birds.

• 32:04Mike Smith?

  Yeah, birds next.

• 32:06Wes Larson?

  So in the end, when the rats still don't appear, the case is finally just dismissed and Satan and his witches just win again, you know? They, they take the W on this one.

• 32:16Jeff Larson?

  Wait, how's it dismiss?

• 32:19Wes Larson?

  Because the rats don't show up, there's like, well, we can't really hold this trial if the rats can't even show up to trial.

• 32:25Jeff Larson?

  Oh, so like the judge was expecting the rats to eventually show up?

• 32:30Wes Larson?

  I don't know what he was actually expecting, but I think it was probably the bishop that was like, we need to have a trial for these rats. And this judge was like, ah, okay.

• 32:43Mike Smith?

  Was Willard?

• 32:44Jeff Larson?

  They could've got one rat.

• 32:46Mike Smith?

  One rat to represent.

• 32:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah, Willard could've controlled him. He's kind of a witch, right?

• 32:50Mike Smith?

  Yeah, there we go. Another male witch.

• 32:54Jeff Larson?

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• 33:34Jeff Larson?

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• 34:16Jeff Larson?

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• 34:26Wes Larson?

  We talk about cats in this episode quite a bit. I absolutely love my cat. He is the center of my world in our house. And as a cat lover, I absolutely want the best for him. And if you're a cat lover, how would you like to receive free cat treats for life? Well, just listen what I have to say, because I'm going to tell you a little bit about Smalls. Smalls is fresh cat food in protein packed recipes made of preservative free, 100% human grade ingredients you'd find in your own fridge and it's delivered right to your door. Smalls is different. Their fresh recipes are made with at least 80% animal protein. They're gently cooked to retain all their nutrients and their flavors. And because it's made without preservatives, it's going to give your cat a lot of incredible health benefits.

• 35:09Wes Larson?

  Less shedding, fewer hairballs, more silky shine to their fur and just better and more sustained energy. And most of the nutrients in Smalls food are digestible. So less junk comes out of the other end, which also means less stinky poops. So your cat's health and longevity starts with what they eat. For a limited time, because you're a Tooth and Claw listener, get 60% off your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com/tooth. That's 60% off your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com/tooth. All right. Well, when you think about witches in modern times, there are a number of animals that we tend to associate with them.

• 35:52Wes Larson?

  But one of those animals that really stands out and being top of mind when you think about witches is the cat. And a black cat, to be specific. My black cat is named Toad, so you just know he's messing around with witches.

• 36:07Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 36:08Wes Larson?

  You don't think so, Mike?

• 36:09Mike Smith?

  He's mostly black.

• 36:12Wes Larson?

  He's a tuxedo cat.

• 36:13Jeff Larson?

  He does have a touch of white.

• 36:15Wes Larson?

  He's still considered like a black cat, though.

• 36:17Mike Smith?

  Do you think?

• 36:18Wes Larson?

  Tuxedo cats are, yeah, yeah.

• 36:20Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 36:20Jeff Larson?

  He's a black cat, but I don't know if he works for a witch.

• 36:23Wes Larson?

  He's got white feet and a white little bow tie here, but he's mostly black.

• 36:28Jeff Larson?

  White little spot on his nose, right?

• 36:30Wes Larson?

  He does have a cute little spot right above his nose, but it's very, that one's hard to see unless you're paying attention.

• 36:36Mike Smith?

  I think this is a nearly headless Nick situation, but.

• 36:39Jeff Larson?

  I think in the 1700s, he doesn't get the job. But I think nowadays, I think a witch would make do with Toad.

• 36:47Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 36:48Mike Smith?

  Okay. That's a good way to put it.

• 36:50Wes Larson?

  Well, that's relieving for me to hear. But why cats? Why were cats seen as this emblem of witchcraft? Well, fortunately for cats in ancient times, the polytheistic, nature worshipping pagan religions of the time often held them in really high esteem. And belief systems like those that existed in ancient Egypt or Ireland saw cats as messengers of God and they're highly revered. But as Christianity took over, as we mentioned earlier, paganism suddenly became enemy number one to the church. And because of that, cats that were revered by pagans were now considered symbols of witchcraft by Christians, especially black cats.

• 37:30Wes Larson?

  In 1233, Pope Gregory the Ninth issued a papal document that linked black cats directly to Satan. In that document, he said that witches who were being initiated into a new coven would have to kiss the butthole of a black cat. And that would be one of the first steps to making the devil emerge and he would have the lower body of a cat and be covered in cat like fur.

• 37:54Mike Smith?

  I wonder how many aspiring witches that filtered out.

• 37:58Wes Larson?

  Where they're like, I want to join your coven, but I sure don't want to kiss that cat's butthole.

• 38:03Jeff Larson?

  I would do it. I would do it in the Taylor Swift version in the movie Cats. That'd be the one.

• 38:10Mike Smith?

  Which, what cat would you?

• 38:11Wes Larson?

  Which cat are you kissing? The James Court one?

• 38:14Jeff Larson?

  The Taylor Swift.

• 38:16Mike Smith?

  Oh, the Taylor Swift one?

• 38:17Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 38:17Mike Smith?

  All right. I'd probably do Idris Elba. That's a real black cat.

• 38:26Wes Larson?

  A lot of cats were killed as a result of this decree and the superstition around cats and black cats got more and more intense. And then it hit another peak during the witch hunts of the 1600s when Protestantism really, they said like, hold my beer to the Catholic church. And they ran around with like a real panic surrounding witches. And Protestants started believing that cats and especially black cats were familiars for witches.

• 38:54Jeff Larson?

  Oh, imagine seeing like a Black Panther believe in that. You should be like, oh my god.

• 39:02Mike Smith?

  Turbo scary.

• 39:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Wes Larson?

  Anyway, a familiar, for those of you who don't know, is basically an animal or a creature that a witch can send out to do their bidding. And people also believe that witches could change into black cats to try and sneak around and spy on their victims. And this is where that myth of a black cat crossing your path being bad luck.

• 39:26Jeff Larson?

  Professor McGonagall does that.

• 39:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Mike Smith?

  Turns into one, yeah. It's also the one scenario in which I'll accept the pronunciation fermiliar because it kind of works. Otherwise, don't say that, please. Please don't say fermiliar.

• 39:40Wes Larson?

  That is a hard one. But this is where that, that superstition about a black cat crossing your path comes from. Because people back then actually thought that that black cat might be a witch or is a cat that like a witch sent to do their bidding. So this got intense enough that even keeping or caring for cats became pretty damning evidence that you might be a witch. And that was something that Elizabeth Clarke learned the hard way in 1645 in Essex, England. So Elizabeth Clarke has a really difficult life. When she's a child, her mom's accused of witchcraft. She's found guilty. She's executed.

• 40:19Jeff Larson?

  Ah, so she's already like a prime.

• 40:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah, she's already on their target list. Yep.

• 40:25Wes Larson?

  She is missing a leg, so she's disabled. She lives with their sister and her sister's husband, but when her sister dies at 30, Elizabeth doesn't really have anywhere to go. She falls on hard times. And with her mother's history, her disability and her general poverty, she feels really rejected by the world. And she has a lot of empathy for creatures that were also rejected by society at the time, namely cats. She has a big heart and she would offer stray cats food and a place to sleep. And over time, her humble home was frequented by more and more cats and other animals as well.

• 40:59Jeff Larson?

  It's kind of like Bin Laden's son is like, I don't want to take the same path my dad took. And it's like, all right, but stay away from our buildings.

• 41:09Wes Larson?

  We're still gonna keep an eye on you.

• 41:13Mike Smith?

  What's he, what is he doing?

• 41:16Jeff Larson?

  I mean, I think he's a DJ or something.

• 41:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he's like, kind of just like a normal dude. Yeah.

• 41:22Mike Smith?

  I am not up to speed on this. I got some research to do.

• 41:27Wes Larson?

  All right. I think it's important to remember here that like relationships with pets in these times is very different from what it is now. Dogs were often just kind of used as tools for hunting or protecting livestock or protecting homes. Cats were kind of just tolerated because they killed unwanted rodents that brought diseases. So when someone was seen being really affectionate with pets like cats or talking to them lovingly, it was a huge red flag. Uh, maybe we should say a green flag because witches are green, you know, it was a flag that there were a witch. I mean, like in cartoons and stuff, witches are always green.

• 42:06Mike Smith?

  Uh, like the Wicked Witch of the West.

• 42:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Mike Smith?

  Elphaba or whatever.

• 42:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Wes Larson?

  All right. So the trouble for Elizabeth Clark starts when Matthew Hopkins, who is a self proclaimed witch finder general and his little sidekick, John Stern.

• 42:20Mike Smith?

  Like Dog the Bounty Hunter.

• 42:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah, honestly, this guy just like literally like took it upon himself to say, I am like the witch finder, like I am the guy. And everyone just kind of trusted him. And he hears from this local in Essex that his wife was sick and it was because Elizabeth Clark had put a spell on her.

• 42:39Jeff Larson?

  I mean, that is how those things always go though. Like ghost hunters, it's not like.

• 42:45Wes Larson?

  Right. Like no.

• 42:46Jeff Larson?

  It's not like Obama was like, here's our biggest ghost hunter.

• 42:49Wes Larson?

  Right, right. No one's like giving them a certificate.

• 42:53Jeff Larson?

  Trump might do it.

• 42:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Mike Smith?

  I know. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes presidents bring in people. They're just like, I guess today we're celebrating the cornhole champion. They just give them a medal and shoe them on.

• 43:04Wes Larson?

  Again, something to remember here is that Elizabeth Clark is poor, uneducated, disabled, and most importantly, she's a woman. So a lot of people are willing to jump on this bandwagon and say that she was definitely a witch. And a big part of that is because she didn't really have any recourse to defend herself. So people are like willing to just jump on this. They start showing up at her house all the time. They're harassing her daily. They're calling her names. They're just like camping out in front of her house nonstop. And she finally cracks and she yells at them saying she's a witch and that she had dealings with the devil and that they need to leave or she's going to cast a spell on them. She's basically just trying to get these people

• 43:43Wes Larson?

  to leave her alone. This doesn't go well for her. When that happens, Hopkins and Stern get a warrant. And what this warrant allows them to do was pretty crazy. Now torture is illegal in England at this time, but what they could do was this thing called watching. And what watching was, was torture. They would be able to go to her house and keep her awake for like multiple days, pretty much as long as they wanted. In this case, it was three days and three nights. And during that time, they force her to continuously walk around the house. And when she's not walking, they would, she'd be on a chair and they'd be poking her with needles and just like, like nonstop torture essentially,

• 44:25Wes Larson?

  never letting her rest, never letting her like think, just constantly making her walk around this house while they watched her. And at one point, they had some women come, strip her naked and look for any witches marks. So it's just this like, she's being broken down in every single way. And I think we've seen in recent times, like these tapes of people being interrogated by police for like hours and hours on end, that are innocent people that will like say they did something because they just can't handle the interrogation anymore. So imagine that for three days and you can't even like stop walking, you know?

• 45:01Jeff Larson?

  And my mind went to waterboarding where it's like, you can't torture people, but you can waterboard them. And it's just like a torture.

• 45:08Wes Larson?

  Torture, like the worst kind of torture for a lot of people.

• 45:11Mike Smith?

  It sounds like a really boring way to torture someone too. After like two hours, I'd be like, can we just put her in one of those bowls?

• 45:19Jeff Larson?

  Well, and you know, you're gonna start petting those cats and then.

• 45:22Mike Smith?

  You know, yeah.

• 45:23Wes Larson?

  Well, that's now.

• 45:23Mike Smith?

  Now I'm a witch.

• 45:24Jeff Larson?

  Now I'm bonded to it.

• 45:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because it really didn't help her case that Hopkins and Stern also observed a lot of different cats and a lot of different animals while they're there. And those animals were probably just stopping fi- stopping by for their feedings or affection or whatever. But Hopkins and Stern said, these are definitely familiars. So on the third night, she breaks mentally. She starts naming other women that are witches. She says that for seven years, she's been having sex with the devil three to four times per week, which you know, good for them. Like that's a healthy sex life after seven years. That's pretty impressive.

• 46:00Jeff Larson?

  I would expect the devil to put up bigger numbers, honestly, though.

• 46:07Wes Larson?

  That's a good point.

• 46:11Jeff Larson?

  Like maybe three or four times a.

• 46:13Wes Larson?

  A night.

• 46:14Jeff Larson?

  Minute.

• 46:16Mike Smith?

  Every minute? That's kind of your.

• 46:19Mike Smith?

  We're not all quick shots, Jeff.

• 46:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Wes Larson?

  All right. So the, like, she breaks. Hopkins is especially interested when Clark starts naming her familiars. And some of them included the very animals that he had seen while they were watching Clark. And her familiars included Germana, which was a white dog with sandy spots, Vinegar Tom, which was a greyhound that can turn into a boy with no head, Sack and Sugar, which was a demonic black rabbit, some imps, which are just like little horned fairies, and then a bunch of cats with some really great names. News, Ella Mouser, Pie Wackett,

• 47:03Wes Larson?

  Peck in the Crown, and Grizzle Greedy Gut. Grizzle Greedy Gut is a great name for a cat. So I might have to save that one. She has lost her touch with the reality at this point though, like she is absolutely broken mentally.

• 47:18Mike Smith?

  She hasn't had sex with the devil in three days.

• 47:20Wes Larson?

  That's true. She's also missing her lover. Um, but she, so she's just kind of saying, anything that comes to mind. She is just trying to get these men to leave her alone. And I think even though she knows she's probably damning herself, anything feels better than having them in her house, like pricking her with needles and making her walk and just like watching her. Stern actually jokes about the rabbit being like a pretty weak familiar. He's kind of like, oh, rabbit, you know? And then Clark says, she's, Clark says, uh, he's lucky that Sack and Sugar doesn't jump on his face, squeeze down his throat, and deposit a load of toads in his belly.

• 48:03Mike Smith?

  Ew.

• 48:06Wes Larson?

  Uh, so she is found guilty. She's hanged that year and is like one of the most kind of solid examples of how they could accuse anyone of witchcraft and torture them until they confessed. And then also how animals were often implicated in these crimes. And I do think a number of these cats and animals were also put to death in this case.

• 48:28Jeff Larson?

  And the rabbit?

• 48:29Wes Larson?

  I don't know about the rabbit. Sack and Sugar.

• 48:32Jeff Larson?

  Wes, you kind of have a grumbly belly.

• 48:35Wes Larson?

  I do have a really grumbly.

• 48:37Jeff Larson?

  You got any toads in there?

• 48:38Wes Larson?

  I might have a load of toads in my belly.

• 48:42Mike Smith?

  A toad load.

• 48:43Wes Larson?

  Maybe, maybe my cat toad is depositing a load of toads down there. Um.

• 48:48Mike Smith?

  What was her name?

• 48:49Jeff Larson?

  I would say that differently.

• 48:50Wes Larson?

  Elizabeth Clark. That's how she said it. I'm just repeating it.

• 48:54Mike Smith?

  Elizabeth Clark. We need justice for Elizabeth.

• 48:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Just for a lot of these women, you know, like this was a, already a terrible time to be a woman. And then you're also having people that can like put you to death by just accusing you of being like a little quirky, you know, of like loving your pets is a reason for you to be accused of witchcraft. Like this is a woman whose only solace was these animals that came into our house.

• 49:19Jeff Larson?

  Rejecting.

• 49:20Wes Larson?

  And they use that as a way to put her to death. Like it's, it's awful.

• 49:25Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Wes Larson?

  All right. Uh, something I, I want to talk about really quickly. Oh, also like a quick footnote, there were two dogs killed in the Salem witch trials that were accused of witchcraft. I didn't want to like go there after this too, because it just felt like we're talking about a lot of animals being executed. Both of those dogs were killed as a result. So this, this did happen kind of throughout the history of, of witch hunts and witch trials. A quick thing, a quick little thing at the end of this story is about black cats. So a lot of this hysteria about witches and witchcraft has really been relegated to the past, but it does still persist when it comes to black cats. And something that people might not know is that black cats in shelters are

• 50:08Wes Larson?

  unfortunately adopted at a much lower rate than other cats. And it's because there's still this lingering superstition surrounding them. And it really breaks my heart because my black cat has just made my life feel so much luckier in so many ways. Like he has brought so much to my life and I love him so much that it makes me sad to think that there's cats in shelters that aren't being adopted purely because of superstitions from like the 1600s. You know, it's pretty sad.

• 50:36Mike Smith?

  That is, I love black. Our family cat for basically my whole, you know, teenage years is black cat. She was the best.

• 50:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 50:45Mike Smith?

  Binky.

• 50:46Wes Larson?

  So I do want to challenge our listeners that if you're ever considering adopting a cat, and I do think you should adopt rather than buying one, I really recommend giving a black cat a chance because they have a hard road ahead of them. There are a lot of them in shelters. They're wonderful pets. And I think they're, I personally think they're the cutest form of cats. I think they're just so wonderful.

• 51:09Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Wes Larson?

  To toad.

• 51:11Mike Smith?

  To, to toad. Toad's load.

• 51:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Toad's load of toads.

• 51:16Jeff Larson?

  You should drink a load of toad.

• 51:18Wes Larson?

  Yep.

• 51:22Wes Larson?

  All right. So that's it for my story on, uh, on animals accused of witchcraft and

• 51:28Jeff Larson?

  I do think if I was a MLB baseball player, I'd be a little hesitant to get a black cat. Cause like, what if I go on a hitting slump right after?

• 51:37Mike Smith?

  You can't be too careful.

• 51:38Wes Larson?

  I kind of feel though, like if you challenge those superstitions, you get like rewarded in the other direction, you know? Like if you're

• 51:47Jeff Larson?

  And I actually wouldn't. It was just a thought.

• 51:50Wes Larson?

  If you're willing to take in a black cat, then like you kind of get extra luck because you're challenging this stupid perception.

• 52:00Jeff Larson?

  I love challenging spirits and stuff.

• 52:03Wes Larson?

  You do. You should get a black cat.

• 52:05Jeff Larson?

  And look at

• 52:06Mike Smith?

  I would get a black cat, but I wouldn't wash my underwear. That's the big one for me.

• 52:13Wes Larson?

  All right. Well, we're going to talk about superstitions here in a second. Do you guys have any questions about witches? In general, anything you want to take back from this episode?

• 52:22Mike Smith?

  A lot, I feel.

• 52:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Mike Smith?

  Um, I'm just going to make a blanket apology. I feel like some out of pocket stuff was said. Uh, just for me, uh, you guys.

• 52:30Wes Larson?

  I think, I think we joked.

• 52:31Jeff Larson?

  Maybe we put this at the start of the episode even, but like, we don't care about gender. We don't care if men are witches or not witches. We're just kind of having some fun this episode.

• 52:44Mike Smith?

  Just joshing.

• 52:44Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And then I think when it, I, I just wanted to say this, like when it comes to women and like all the stuff that women have to deal with. There are some uniquely horrible things right now that women are dealing with in, and like, I just feel like when you learn about stuff like this, and I've been researching it for days. It does really bring in like to clarity, just the awful stuff that has happened to women throughout history and is still happening and like, I don't know, we're a podcast of three men and I think we can do a little bit better too. And just like,

• 53:13Jeff Larson?

  To quote Logan Paul.

• 53:15Wes Larson?

  No, I don't want to quote Logan Paul.

• 53:16Jeff Larson?

  Shout out women.

• 53:20Wes Larson?

  Anyway.

• 53:23Jeff Larson?

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• 54:03Jeff Larson?

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• 54:40Wes Larson?

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• 56:07Wes Larson?

  Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. All right, let's move on to our categories. First of all, your favorite witch in pop culture.

• 56:17Mike Smith?

  It's gotta be Kiki. Kiki's Delivery Service. Uh, speaking of black cats. I just love the idea of a witch in training, getting into delivering baked goods. It's just like the coziest little scenario for a story ever. Kiki's Delivery Service. One of Ghibli's finest films.

• 56:34Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that is a good one.

• 56:35Mike Smith?

  I am a show in my honest.

• 56:37Wes Larson?

  Oh, I, I really like, uh, Madame Mim from Sword in the Stone. It's like my, probably my first introduction to a witch when I was growing up was that cartoon, the Disney movie. And she's like so chaotic and funny. And like, there's kind of this like camaraderie almost between Merlin and her, but she's also just like willing to cheat and do whatever. And I, I don't know. She's such a good character and the voice acting for her is so good. So that's my favorite fun witch. My favorite scary witch is the witch from The Witch.

• 57:12Jeff Larson?

  My favorite was Bellatrix from Harry Potter, from the books and the moot like perfect, like I think the very best casting choice in the movies.

• 57:23Mike Smith?

  Sure.

• 57:24Jeff Larson?

  Harry's uncle abandoned him when his parents died and she kills him. So I was always happy about that.

• 57:29Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 57:31Mike Smith?

  I forgot that that's okay. Yeah.

• 57:34Jeff Larson?

  But scary, scary too was, um, Sleepy Hollow, that one was always kind of scary.

• 57:39Mike Smith?

  Where eyes like go.

• 57:43Wes Larson?

  All right. The animal you'd want as your familiar, if you were a witch. So you have an animal that you can send out to do your bidding.

• 57:50Jeff Larson?

  I did a black salamander with yellow dots on it.

• 57:55Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 57:56Mike Smith?

  Okay. So more of an aesthetic pick than a practical.

• 58:00Wes Larson?

  Not very practical.

• 58:01Jeff Larson?

  No, because I think I can dip it into my potions and get like the oils off of it too.

• 58:07Mike Smith?

  Oh, okay. Sure. Some like excretion from the newt.

• 58:11Wes Larson?

  He'd be kind of slow if you were like, hey, go spy on this person for me, you know? Might take him a while.

• 58:18Jeff Larson?

  Salamanders aren't that slow.

• 58:20Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 58:21Jeff Larson?

  Are they?

• 58:21Wes Larson?

  I mean, compared to a lot of other animals.

• 58:25Jeff Larson?

  Like, are they slow compared to a lizard?

• 58:27Wes Larson?

  Yes. Salamanders are like a slow animal. They're very slow.

• 58:32Jeff Larson?

  Not if you get them in water.

• 58:34Mike Smith?

  Yeah, get, get them in that water.

• 58:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's true. I guess they can go a bit faster in water.

• 58:39Mike Smith?

  They're, they're kind of like Navy SEALs, how like they can be in water and on land, dangerous on both.

• 58:45Wes Larson?

  Salamanders though are, are usually on land. I think newts are the ones that tend to be in water more, but.

• 58:53Mike Smith?

  Our salamanders are amphibians though, right?

• 58:55Wes Larson?

  They are amphibians.

• 58:55Jeff Larson?

  Salamanders are in water a lot.

• 58:57Wes Larson?

  I think salamanders are often born in water, but then they live.

• 59:00Jeff Larson?

  Like, aren't those axolotls type of salamander?

• 59:04Wes Larson?

  Axolotls? Yeah, I think they are. And they're in water.

• 59:07Jeff Larson?

  And they are also in water.

• 59:08Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 59:10Mike Smith?

  See?

• 59:10Wes Larson?

  All right. All right. Salamander. I think it's, it's a great pick. Mike, what's your pick?

• 59:14Mike Smith?

  I like that pick. I'm going with a hamster. Cause it's pretty portable. And then if you need some kind of like mixing or stirring, you just put them on a wheel and they kind of do like a little mill action.

• 59:28Mike Smith?

  My problem is, I mean, I like priority number one is extending its lifespan. Cause I don't, because gerbils, what am I, I'm give up. I'm done talking.

• 59:37Wes Larson?

  Hamster.

• 59:39Jeff Larson?

  They don't live very long.

• 59:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah. My pick is a black billed magpie, which is the magpie species we have here in Montana. I think a bird is the way to go because they can just travel far and people don't really notice birds. And then I just think, I, I was thinking a raven or a crow, but magpies are so beautiful and I just love to like, look at it up close when we're having our little chats and stuff.

• 1:00:04Mike Smith?

  What would you name him or her?

• 1:00:05Wes Larson?

  Uh, grizzle, grizzle gut or whatever it was.

• 1:00:09Mike Smith?

  That's a good name. Yeah.

• 1:00:12Wes Larson?

  Grizzle greedy gut. Yeah.

• 1:00:13Mike Smith?

  Greedy gut.

• 1:00:15Wes Larson?

  All right. What modern thing feels the most like witchcraft to you?

• 1:00:19Mike Smith?

  So usually, not usually, but a lot of times in witchcraft, it's kind of a Faustian bargain, you know? You make a deal with the witch and they do something and you get the benefits, but also their repercussions. And I just feel like there's a class action lawsuit waiting to happen for Ozempic.

• 1:00:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Mike Smith?

  And or more generally, like I have a really bad habit of drinking Coke Zero. Like the zero sugar, zero calorie drinks don't make sense to me.

• 1:00:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah, there's something.

• 1:00:48Mike Smith?

  And I'm just waiting for the day where it's just like, oh yeah, you all have cancer now. It's like, you know what? There's just they're they taste way too good for there to be just nothing, no negative repercussions.

• 1:00:59Wes Larson?

  There was once, we were on a trip, I think it was like Yellowstone or something. And you had me buy one of those ninja, like zero sugar energy drinks.

• 1:01:10Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Wes Larson?

  And it was the sweetest thing I've ever tasted in my entire life. And I was like, this has to be worse for me than like drinking a drink with sugar.

• 1:01:21Mike Smith?

  There's I think so too. Yeah. But I just, maybe I'm not cut up on the science, but man, it just feels witchcraft.

• 1:01:27Jeff Larson?

  Thing I've read is it makes you eat more sugar outside of it because it tricks your body into thinking that sugar.

• 1:01:34Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 1:01:34Jeff Larson?

  And then your insulin levels. Doesn't get the benefits of the sugar. So then it demands it later.

• 1:01:39Wes Larson?

  Okay. I there has to be something in those chemicals too, though. But.

• 1:01:43Jeff Larson?

  Well, dude, and in, uh, in Ozempic, it's Hila monster venom.

• 1:01:48Wes Larson?

  Venom, I know.

• 1:01:49Jeff Larson?

  So that's like.

• 1:01:50Mike Smith?

  That's witchy.

• 1:01:51Jeff Larson?

  Witches use that for sure.

• 1:01:53Wes Larson?

  I like the Faustian bargain thing though, too, because witches get their power from the devil. And that dude loves a Faustian bargain. It's like his thing.

• 1:02:00Mike Smith?

  Bargaining Faustioli.

• 1:02:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Jeff Larson?

  They don't always get their power from the devil.

• 1:02:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they do. That's the whole thing.

• 1:02:08Jeff Larson?

  Potter.

• 1:02:09Wes Larson?

  Harry Potter, well, that's not like real fine. You're right. There, there are.

• 1:02:14Jeff Larson?

  My generation goes Harry Potter.

• 1:02:17Wes Larson?

  Okay. Witches and witches in like history have always, that's like where they draw their power from. And I get you're right. You know what, Jeff? You're right. Cause that's the Christian like view of witches. And like the actual view of witches is that they're drawing their power from like nature and from all these different like sources of good. So you're right. I should not have said that.

• 1:02:39Jeff Larson?

  I just don't want to put witches into a box.

• 1:02:41Wes Larson?

  You're right.

• 1:02:41Jeff Larson?

  Because I already did that.

• 1:02:43Wes Larson?

  You're totally right. Yep.

• 1:02:44Mike Smith?

  Yeah. They've been tortured enough. They can't fit in those little boxes comfortably.

• 1:02:48Wes Larson?

  The Christian view is that they get their their power from the devil, but I don't subscribe to that.

• 1:02:53Jeff Larson?

  And they've been right about everything.

• 1:02:55Wes Larson?

  Generally, you get really just on point with everything.

• 1:03:00Jeff Larson?

  I did live photos for mine.

• 1:03:04Jeff Larson?

  Just like on the Apple phones is like, you take a photo and it's a three second video now. And all I did was take a picture and now it's a video kind of thing. And it's kind of feels a little witchcrafty to me.

• 1:03:18Mike Smith?

  Yeah, does. Whenever I see one, it freaks me out. It's like something wrong is happening here. But I, I, I settle down after a little bit. So don't worry about me, Jeff.

• 1:03:28Wes Larson?

  Okay. Mine's similar. I picked digital photography. Cause like the, the thought of film photography makes a lot of sense to me where it's just like, oh, light is penetrating this thing. That is able to capture that. Like when you see a shadow on the wall that the light hits it right and you can kind of see an image. But digital photography where it's like, okay, so this is a bunch of little ones and zeros and stuff that are making this like perfect image.

• 1:03:56Wes Larson?

  I think anything like that where data is traveling through the air. Wifi is another one where it's just like, I, I can't wrap my head around that. No matter how well you try and explain data traveling through the air into my phone or anything, I just can't.

• 1:04:10Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Wes Larson?

  I can't. So.

• 1:04:12Jeff Larson?

  Well, that's the one that's craziest actually, like if you're going historically, to me, it's a landline. Like I went to the place where they made the first first phone call, I think in Salem.

• 1:04:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Jeff Larson?

  That's before satellites and they were talking to people in a different place.

• 1:04:29Wes Larson?

  Right. Just through like electricity.

• 1:04:30Jeff Larson?

  It's just like through a wire.

• 1:04:32Mike Smith?

  Yeah. It's like when you like tie a string to two cups, but just really long, I think is how that worked.

• 1:04:38Wes Larson?

  It's funny that.

• 1:04:39Jeff Larson?

  I guess.

• 1:04:40Wes Larson?

  That I was reading this, I forget what it's called, but basically like we have.

• 1:04:44Jeff Larson?

  Actually makes more sense.

• 1:04:45Wes Larson?

  I know, right?

• 1:04:48Wes Larson?

  We have this idea that like, if we were to go back in time and you were sent to the Middle Ages or something that you would be able to impress everyone with your knowledge. And it's kind of like, I wouldn't be able to explain anything, you know?

• 1:05:01Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. That's the famous Nate Bargazzi joke.

• 1:05:05Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or he's like, I don't know how anything works. Yeah.

• 1:05:10Mike Smith?

  Well, what's the, the Arthur C. Clarke quote? Any significant earth sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Yeah. Like we're just, we're advancing too quickly. So everything just feels fake and magical.

• 1:05:24Wes Larson?

  For sure. Yep. And evil AI.

• 1:05:29Wes Larson?

  All right. Something you recommend this week. I'm going to recommend something that we recommended on No Pants, which is the movie Hocum. It's been a while since I've seen a horror movie that really just like checked all the boxes for me. And I really, really, really liked that movie. It does involve a witch and that's why I wanted to bring it up. I just, I like, want to watch it again and I just watched it a few days ago. And I didn't think I was going to like it that much. So I really recommend the movie Hocum.

• 1:05:58Mike Smith?

  I'll co-sign that. Love that movie. It's great. It's my favorite horror movie from 2026. And that includes Resident Evil, Obsession, Backrooms.

• 1:06:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Mike Smith?

  Et cetera, et cetera. Hocum is the standout for me.

• 1:06:11Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Jeff Larson?

  Um, my recommendations, actually I have a few, so you can go first.

• 1:06:17Mike Smith?

  I was gonna do, uh, what was it called? Watching?

• 1:06:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Mike Smith?

  No. So, uh, Tinashe, she has a new album out, a fairly new album called Popstar. And friend of the show, Sabrina, uh, I told her about it and she assigned the perfect word to it, which is. Quanty.

• 1:06:43Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 1:06:44Mike Smith?

  We'll bleep that out, but it is the perfect word. Uh, really great, just fun album, lots of fun sounds and her vocal performance is great. Really enjoyed it a lot.

• 1:06:54Wes Larson?

  Jeff?

• 1:06:55Jeff Larson?

  All right. I have a few. First of all, I say going to like a local business, maybe like toy shop, demanding the one item that's not for sale. And then when they won't sell it to you because it's not for sale, you just light them up.

• 1:07:13Wes Larson?

  Throw a fit. Yeah.

• 1:07:15Mike Smith?

  Yeah. It's a good, good recommendation.

• 1:07:18Jeff Larson?

  The Field Museum, I went there in Chicago. There was two animals we've covered, my panda story, those pandas are there, the lions, the salvos are the, uh, the lion, the savo lions are there. Another lion that I'm like, I'm telling this lion's story soon. And then also Sue, the most complete T-Rex fossil ever.

• 1:07:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Mike Smith?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:07:42Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:42Wes Larson?

  She was found in Montana.

• 1:07:43Jeff Larson?

  National Park after Dark did like a really good story on it. I think she was found in the Dakotas.

• 1:07:48Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:07:49Jeff Larson?

  Uh, but yeah, really big legal battle with Sue's. That would be a good.

• 1:07:56Jeff Larson?

  And then also from Chicago tavern style pizza. I like Chicago style pizza, but they also have tavern style as Chicago style and it's pretty dang good.

• 1:08:06Mike Smith?

  How, what's that look like?

• 1:08:08Jeff Larson?

  Uh, it's kind of just like a flatbread pizza, but with like a little more sauce than flatbreads normally have.

• 1:08:14Wes Larson?

  I feel like it's such a good crossover between like a deep dish and a New York style. It's like right in the middle for me. And I, I like tavern style too. It's good.

• 1:08:23Jeff Larson?

  And they cut it into squares.

• 1:08:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Mike Smith?

  Oh, that's where, yeah, that gets me every time.

• 1:08:27Jeff Larson?

  Lastly, uh, shout out Zach Bryan, been playing a bunch of Zach Bryan recently.

• 1:08:32Wes Larson?

  Yep. I've, I've become a fan, more of him and his music, but I like, I do like Zach Bryan.

• 1:08:39Mike Smith?

  What do you think the next pizza shape slice we're gonna invent is?

• 1:08:43Jeff Larson?

  Oh, next shape?

• 1:08:44Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Cause we had sliced wedges and then we've done squares.

• 1:08:48Wes Larson?

  Circles, right? I guess we have circles.

• 1:08:50Mike Smith?

  Just rings.

• 1:08:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Rings would be good.

• 1:08:53Mike Smith?

  Like smaller and smaller rings as you work your way in.

• 1:08:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:57Mike Smith?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:57Wes Larson?

  Nuggets. We kind of have nuggets. It's kind of all been done.

• 1:09:00Mike Smith?

  Pizza, not pizza rolls. Yeah. Write in listeners.

• 1:09:03Wes Larson?

  You know what? I'm going to do one more recommendation and it's going to be one that you guys is maybe shocking to you. Getting a sports team, like for me, I don't follow sports nearly as close as, as Mike and Jeff. But this time of year, I really do follow University of Montana football closely. And it just gives you something to look forward to every week and like a fun thing to kind of be excited about. And I think even if you're not into sports, you might find it rewarding to get into like one team and just follow them for a bit. And it can be kind of exciting.

• 1:09:37Mike Smith?

  That's good.

• 1:09:37Wes Larson?

  Don't pick one from San Diego.

• 1:09:39Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Like the Grizz, they're pretty good. They're a pretty fun team to follow because they're usually right in there at the end of the year.

• 1:09:45Jeff Larson?

  Or do what I do and pick a couple.

• 1:09:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah. And make one of them like a dynasty too.

• 1:09:51Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think college is a good way to go too, because it's like, at least the Kushners don't own this team.

• 1:09:57Mike Smith?

  Right. Seriously.

• 1:09:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah. You don't have to worry about like what billionaires you're kind of pledging allegiance to.

• 1:10:04Mike Smith?

  All right. Uh, one more something before some listener questions, something you are superstitious about.

• 1:10:10Jeff Larson?

  You're going to get frustrated with me. I'm, I'm not superstitious. I'm maybe a little stitious.

• 1:10:16Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 1:10:17Jeff Larson?

  Now that's an office joke. Uh, no, I really don't have any answer. And I think that's my answer.

• 1:10:24Mike Smith?

  That's okay.

• 1:10:24Jeff Larson?

  Is like, I'm not superstitious. I don't think that I influence anything outside of my control, outside of my like, general vicinity. I know how Mike gets more into it with sports and stuff. He like, won't watch his team because he thinks he's making them lose. Like, I just can't, I, I always think that's not realistic.

• 1:10:47Mike Smith?

  It's real. It's, I promise you, it's real. Why is it when I turn the TV on, the Brewers hit a, whatever, it doesn't matter.

• 1:10:56Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Mike Smith?

  I'm over it. I don't care. Sports is for children, really, if you think about it. So.

• 1:11:01Wes Larson?

  Mike, you want to go next?

• 1:11:03Mike Smith?

  Well, that was mine, basically. But the other way around, if I attend my favorite sports team in person, they do win. So that's the key to all my problems. I just have to go to every one of their games.

• 1:11:13Wes Larson?

  It's like the opposite.

• 1:11:14Jeff Larson?

  Why is sports for children?

• 1:11:16Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's just juvenile. Like, why, if you care about sports, that's a little, it's embarrassing, you know, it's cringe.

• 1:11:22Jeff Larson?

  Oh, what, I'm supposed to care about my big old family?

• 1:11:26Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's, maybe, yeah.

• 1:11:29Jeff Larson?

  All my kids and their grades?

• 1:11:31Mike Smith?

  Sundays, spend some time with your.

• 1:11:32Jeff Larson?

  What am I supposed to care about, Mike?

• 1:11:34Mike Smith?

  There's nothing. Life is meaningless. Go read Albert Camus, The Stranger, and tell me how you feel. Absurdity. It's all absurd.

• 1:11:42Wes Larson?

  I bet I'm the most superstitious out of the three of us. And I think mine kind of is more centered around like, energy. And I even feel like since I like stopped killing bugs, my life has gotten better, you know, like, things like that. But there's one instance of my superstition that really kind of got me. And it was when I went to India the first time.

• 1:12:03Jeff Larson?

  I went to this. Did your duck die when you stopped killing bugs?

• 1:12:06Wes Larson?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, that was because I left the chicken coop open, though.

• 1:12:12Jeff Larson?

  How about you ever killing bugs, you were close to it?

• 1:12:14Wes Larson?

  I, yeah, I don't know. Um, when I went to India the first time, I was at this like, local marketplace, and I found this guy that had all these little statues and stuff. And I asked him if he had any bears. And he had to dig through all these like, really cheap looking, like, obviously factory made little metal statues. And he pulls out this bear that looked like a cursed relic. And it was really cool. And I bought it, but I had this feeling like, I shouldn't be buying this. Like, this feels wrong to me. And COVID started a few weeks later.

• 1:12:59Jeff Larson?

  What?

• 1:13:00Wes Larson?

  So I think I caused it. Yeah. I, that's just kind of how I felt when I was like, I was at home and the world was falling apart. I was like, I shouldn't have bought that bear.

• 1:13:13Jeff Larson?

  It's really good.

• 1:13:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Jeff Larson?

  So funny. Great work by you, Wes.

• 1:13:16Mike Smith?

  Thank you for your service, Wes.

• 1:13:19Wes Larson?

  All right, Jeff, you got some listener questions for us?

• 1:13:22Jeff Larson?

  I do have a few. We dig Jenna says, if you could pick anyone to haunt you, who would you choose and why? You know what? I thought about this a little bit. And I think I'm going with like, more of a Chuck Norris type. I wouldn't want anyone who got a bad deal in life and, or like, any like, small people who like, want to get back at the world or like, want to act big once they die type of thing, you know? I want like, a tough guy who's just like, yeah, I already, I already did that in my real life. I'm just gonna chill now.

• 1:14:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I have a hard time thinking of a ghost that I think would be more annoying than Chuck Norris's ghost.

• 1:14:07Mike Smith?

  Really?

• 1:14:08Jeff Larson?

  How so?

• 1:14:08Wes Larson?

  He just seems like he was an annoying dude to be around. But maybe that's just.

• 1:14:14Jeff Larson?

  He'd probably get bored because he did everything.

• 1:14:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17Jeff Larson?

  Alive.

• 1:14:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. Mike?

• 1:14:21Mike Smith?

  Uh, I'll go, I don't know. Let's go with, can we do animals?

• 1:14:25Wes Larson?

  Sure.

• 1:14:26Mike Smith?

  Let's go with my dog Brock, German shepherd.

• 1:14:29Wes Larson?

  It's a good pick.

• 1:14:30Mike Smith?

  Do a little reunion with him after 10 years.

• 1:14:32Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Mike Smith?

  Uh, ghost dog? That'd be sweet. Like that one Forrest Whitaker movie.

• 1:14:37Jeff Larson?

  I don't like it. He's just in your house and you can't even give him scratches?

• 1:14:42Mike Smith?

  That would be tough.

• 1:14:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Mike Smith?

  Well, I don't know. I guess the rules weren't defined so clearly for me that I do know what's possible and what isn't. But I could get over no scratches.

• 1:14:54Jeff Larson?

  I'm sorry, I'm, I'm, I shouldn't be poking holes at it. I don't know what my problem is.

• 1:15:02Mike Smith?

  No, that's fair. Wes, Wes called your ghost annoying. So you're probably just lashing out.

• 1:15:07Jeff Larson?

  I'm lashing.

• 1:15:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I'm gonna, mine's probably gonna get real annoying too, honestly. But I'm gonna pick Steve Irwin. And I think it's because like.

• 1:15:16Jeff Larson?

  Ooh, I like that.

• 1:15:17Wes Larson?

  He would be like hyping me up all the time and like, giving, like, making me feel more passionate about things. And I think he's one of the unique people that like, his unbridled energy didn't come off as like annoying to me. Like, it came off as like endearing. And so I think if I had him constantly with that energy around me, it would just make my life better. So.

• 1:15:40Jeff Larson?

  Well, and whenever you're like, I don't know if I should pick this animal.

• 1:15:44Mike Smith?

  Pick it up.

• 1:15:45Jeff Larson?

  Pick it up.

• 1:15:47Mike Smith?

  It'd be a weird one to explain to his family, though. Like, because his son's still around, his family's still around. You kind of have to be like, so he'd probably want you to.

• 1:15:56Jeff Larson?

  Robert on as a guest then and let him know.

• 1:15:59Wes Larson?

  He would like, keep asking if we could go to Australia. And I'd be like, no, Steve, you can't see your family. I don't know why I'm being so mean to Steve Irwin's ghost.

• 1:16:09Jeff Larson?

  What if he made you just kill a stingray?

• 1:16:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah. He's like, first order of business.

• 1:16:15Jeff Larson?

  He's like, we're.

• 1:16:16Wes Larson?

  Killing every friend stingray in the world.

• 1:16:22Jeff Larson?

  All right. Next up is from Angie, who's been on a few of our trips.

• 1:16:27Mike Smith?

  Yo, what up, Angie?

• 1:16:28Jeff Larson?

  She pushed me into the wall.

• 1:16:29Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's messed up.

• 1:16:30Jeff Larson?

  What's the scariest thing you've done to yourself?

• 1:16:34Wes Larson?

  Huh. I feel like all my stuff feels really existential. It seems like scary. Like, for me, honestly, like, this is the real answer. And it's, it's like, a little bit maybe more serious than people are looking for. But leaving religion was like, by far the scariest thing. Because it, it was like, suddenly this whole manual that I had for like, viewing the world and the afterlife and everything was kind of a blank slate. And that was really scary to wrap my head around and still is to this day, honestly. So that, that was definitely my scariest thing.

• 1:17:07Mike Smith?

  I've got a better one. I took two steps out onto the glass bottom at the Eiffel Tower. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:17:12Wes Larson?

  That is better.

• 1:17:13Mike Smith?

  That's so scary.

• 1:17:15Jeff Larson?

  I watched Friday the 13th as a kid in the basement.

• 1:17:19Mike Smith?

  Oh, that might be even the, that's the worst one.

• 1:17:25Jeff Larson?

  Wes, yours is good too, though.

• 1:17:26Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Jeff Larson?

  YK Chata asks, nightmare blunt rotation. So what, blunt rotation is like three people, right?

• 1:17:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Mike Smith?

  Including yourself?

• 1:17:41Wes Larson?

  Can it, is it?

• 1:17:41Jeff Larson?

  Like, for me, it's easy. It's Ghostface, Jason, and Mike Myers. I don't want to smoke with any three of them.

• 1:17:49Mike Smith?

  Yeah, okay. I think that'd be kind of fun to see him duke it out, though, because you know they're gonna start swinging.

• 1:17:55Jeff Larson?

  I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun.

• 1:17:56Mike Smith?

  Oh, it's just nightmare. Okay.

• 1:17:57Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Mike Smith?

  I see.

• 1:18:00Wes Larson?

  I think mine would be Grandpa Glenn.

• 1:18:04Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Wes Larson?

  Jojo Siwa.

• 1:18:07Jeff Larson?

  Mom.

• 1:18:08Mike Smith?

  Mom.

• 1:18:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Mike Smith?

  Cindy's gotta be in there because she won't smoke.

• 1:18:13Wes Larson?

  No, I don't think moms, because I wonder how it would, if it would be good or bad for mom. So I'm not going to say mom. I'm going to say, um, my third person would be

• 1:18:24Jeff Larson?

  Mike's mom.

• 1:18:25Wes Larson?

  Ben Shapiro, maybe.

• 1:18:28Mike Smith?

  Ooh, not my mom, huh? Okay. I'll go with, uh, Manu Ginobili. I'll go with Nolan.

• 1:18:40Jeff Larson?

  From college.

• 1:18:41Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Jeff Larson?

  Mike's very nice roommate to everyone but him.

• 1:18:45Mike Smith?

  I hated him.

• 1:18:48Mike Smith?

  Let's see, who's the next one? That's only two. I'll go with, uh, maybe like, my two-year-old niece. I don't want her smoking. That'd be a nightmare.

• 1:18:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's a good pick.

• 1:19:03Jeff Larson?

  Next up is Adventure Mom asks, doing a rewatch of 80s, 90s scary movies. What's one that doesn't age well?

• 1:19:16Mike Smith?

  I mean, to Jeff's earlier answer, I think the original Friday, the 13th is a tough. If you didn't watch that early enough or long ago enough, it's a tough one to sit through, I think.

• 1:19:27Jeff Larson?

  Well, it's not even really Jason in it.

• 1:19:29Mike Smith?

  No, it's not at all. Well, I mean, yeah, kinda, sort of by the very end, but.

• 1:19:35Wes Larson?

  I think that's a good pick.

• 1:19:36Jeff Larson?

  I mean, it is like the charm of those movies that they don't like Chucky. It's like, I just watched Chucky and the dolls would be way better now. But it's like, that's kind of what makes it so fun.

• 1:19:49Mike Smith?

  Oh, for sure. Dude, his little legs like tripsing and traipsing around the house is so funny. It's almost cute.

• 1:19:56Wes Larson?

  I was actually thinking like the opposite of this question last night too, is like we were watching, I was watching a movie from the 80s. I was like, man, they just can't make them like this anymore. They just have like such a cool quality to them. But let me think of one that hasn't aged well.

• 1:20:10Jeff Larson?

  For me, it's just like in the slashers, the whole trope of like, if you have sex, you get killed. If you like, you know, like the virgin makes it alive. It's just like a little tired.

• 1:20:22Mike Smith?

  Yeah. What's the one, the Stephen King one that has the meatballs? But that was like, that kind of had.

• 1:20:30Wes Larson?

  That was 90s.

• 1:20:31Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that didn't, that had already aged poorly the day it came out.

• 1:20:34Jeff Larson?

  She said 80s and 90s.

• 1:20:35Wes Larson?

  Okay. Yeah. I can't think of one off the top of my head, honestly.

• 1:20:40Jeff Larson?

  PF Silva asks, which animal attack story do you guys think that would make a great horror movie? Hi, from Brazil.

• 1:20:49Wes Larson?

  I mean, Night of the Grizzlies, but they've tried it already and I feel like people keep kind of flubbing it.

• 1:20:54Jeff Larson?

  Coming out soon, right?

• 1:20:55Wes Larson?

  It just came, it already came out, but it was like low budget, not very good, but that's the one that I always.

• 1:21:01Jeff Larson?

  That whale one's coming out.

• 1:21:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah, Whale Fall.

• 1:21:05Jeff Larson?

  The problem with it is like, you can stay safe from any animals. That's why like Cocaine Bear kind of worked is like, this isn't a normal bear, you know? Even though like I didn't love the movie, like that's why the concept kind of worked is like with normal animals. But I do think the leopard of.

• 1:21:27Wes Larson?

  That's what I was about to say, Ruder Priag. Yeah.

• 1:21:29Jeff Larson?

  Ruder Pri, Ruder Priag.

• 1:21:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you got it.

• 1:21:32Jeff Larson?

  I can't even say it after you say it because like before we had the information we have nowadays. Before we had the skills we have nowadays and just to be in that situation where you think it's a demon. Like you could make a pretty good.

• 1:21:48Wes Larson?

  It was pulling them out of their houses, you know, like there's people locking their doors and it was still figuring a way out to like get inside. And so I, yeah, I think that's my pick too, Leopard of Ruder Priag.

• 1:21:59Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Imagine how easy you would have gotten that duck of yours, Wes. The door is just wide open.

• 1:22:08Jeff Larson?

  I would have gotten them with the doors closed, I bet.

• 1:22:11Mike Smith?

  I know.

• 1:22:11Wes Larson?

  I miss that duck. That duck was.

• 1:22:13Mike Smith?

  I love that. I like your duck so much, Wes. I want you to just.

• 1:22:17Wes Larson?

  Okay. Uh, anymore, Jeff?

• 1:22:19Jeff Larson?

  Nope.

• 1:22:19Wes Larson?

  All right. Well, that's it for the episode. I did just want to reiterate, um, a lot of great black cats out there that need homes. So, uh, if you are thinking about adopting a pet and honestly, if you think like, maybe you're worrying about a dog being too much for you. An indoor cat is really just like such a great animal. They're wonderful to have around. I am just really, really happy that we adopted Toad. So I fully recommend it.

• 1:22:48Jeff Larson?

  Percent chance that's a witch though?

• 1:22:50Wes Larson?

  Uh, you know, that's the fun part is you get to like have that little chance, but if it is a witch, it's only going to make your life better.

• 1:22:56Jeff Larson?

  And it could be Professor McGonagall.

• 1:22:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it could be. Yeah. Yeah. Long live witches.

• 1:23:01Jeff Larson?

  That's not so bad.

• 1:23:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Long live witches and we hope you're all having a great spooky season. We got one more kind of spooky themed episode coming up. Um, but yeah, thanks, guys.

• 1:23:12Mike Smith?

  You're welcome.

• 1:23:14Jeff Larson?

  Thanks, Wes. A good episode. That's fun.

• 1:23:17Wes Larson?

  All right. Love you.

• 1:23:18Jeff Larson?

  All right. Love you.

• 1:23:19Mike Smith?

  See ya.