70. Eating and Tweeting

Does the future of food lie in its past – or inside a tank of liquid nitrogen? Also: how anti-social can you be on a social network?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example. Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank: Brilliantly Boring Since 1865. Brilliantly Boring Since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster.

• 1:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  With business preferences, save your travel must-haves, like gym access or breakfast, just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole

• 2:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  What did you have for dinner last night?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Pasta with a mushroom sauce.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Grilled cheese sandwiches. Artichokes and cardoons and capers.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  We had leftovers. I would call it a chicken kielbasa. Meyer lemon fennel treat.

• 2:45Speaker 03

  I just got a hot dog on the street.

• 2:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  What did you have for dinner last night? And more important, why? Do you spend a lot of time thinking about what makes it to your plate and how it got that way? About what cooking really means and how much of the past we should drag into the future? In this episode, you'll hear from some people who spend all their time thinking about that. So go ahead, grab a fork. We'll wait for you.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  From APM American Public Media and WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Today, we hit the kitchen with two chefs, one a throwback, the other, a future gazer. And later, we ask, how antisocial can you be on a social media site? That's right, eating and tweeting. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 3:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Raise your hand if you really like to eat. Yeah, me too. What's not to like? Food is awesome. It's even fun hearing people talk about food.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Something that's timeless, really. Picking walnuts off a tree in the fall, cracking them open and eating them. So with a vacuum desiccator, you suck air out, which allows you to dry food at low temperature. First thing Monday. Call the fishermen and see what happened.

• 4:25Speaker 05

  Water is a polar substance. Now, what that means is the charge is not evenly distributed. That's another way to say they stick together.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  I'm thinking about root vegetables in the fall and in the winter. I'm thinking about nuts, dried nuts and berries. I'm thinking about jams and syrups. I'm thinking about dried beans of all kinds, of grains like lentils and split peas.

• 4:56Speaker 05

  So then you cook it to perfect medium rare. Then you dunk it in liquid nitrogen, which freezes the outside. Then we deep fry it. We pop it in a deep fryer or use a torch on it.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  I'm Alice Waters and I'm the owner of Chez Panis Restaurant in Berkeley, California. And I'm also the founder of the Chez Panis Foundation.

• 5:21Speaker 05

  OK, well, I'm Nathan Myhrvold and I'm both an inventor and a cookbook author. I trained as a physicist and then I worked with Stephen Hawking on quantum field theory and curved spacetime and the origin of the universe.

• 5:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Alice Waters is the godmother of the slow food movement, the locally sourced, back to nature feeding frenzy that's epitomized by her restaurant, Chez Panis, in Berkeley, California. Waters might be the person most responsible for turning organic into a household word, for leading the charge to eat slow food, simple food, real food.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  We've been brainwashed ourselves to think that cooking is drudgery and that we need to go out and buy what's quickly available, that, you know, that fast, cheap and easy. And we think of everything that way. When in fact, what is slow and delicious is what's really satisfying. What is good for us. I think we've just gotten off that path and we need to come back to our senses and

• 6:37Speaker 02

  come back into that sort of river of civilization that has food as part of culture and agriculture.

• 6:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Beyond her restaurant, Waters's philosophy has been made manifest in a public school nutrition program and more than a dozen cookbooks. Nathan Myhrvold is also a cookbook author. He's trained as a chef, even won a big barbecue award, but he does approach cooking a bit like, well, like a physicist.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  Cooking is an example of applied physics because of course, heat, applying heat to food is the key technique in cooking and the physics of heat conduction, whether, or heat radiation and convection, those are very important to cooking. Chemistry is also important because there are lots of different chemical reactions. That's why meat browns, for example. There's a reaction called the Maillard reaction, first described in the 19th century by a French physician. That's what makes meat brown.

• 7:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Myhrvold used to be the chief technology officer of Microsoft. He graduated from high school at 14, had his PhD by the time he was 23. Now, he's in his early 50s and he's become a bit of a polymath. He's an accomplished nature photographer and mountain climber. He collects rare books and rocket engines. After leaving Microsoft, he co-founded an invention company called Intellectual Ventures in Bellevue, Washington. The inventors on his staff are trying to come up with a better version of nuclear power, a better way to perform brain surgery. They're trying to stop hurricanes and global warming.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Well, we have a whole diversity of both projects and people. Right beside the kitchen is our insectory, where we grow mosquitoes. And we grow mosquitoes because we have a number of anti-malaria projects. And you have to know your enemy. So we grow malarial mosquitoes, and it's literally right beside the kitchen. We grow thousands of mosquitoes so that we can test different ways to kill them, attract them, repel them. Our single most dramatic way of doing it is a device that spots mosquitoes in the air and shoots them out of the sky with laser beams. And that sounds like something from an Austin Powers movie, but by God, it works.

• 9:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  That kitchen Muirvold keeps mentioning, it's not your standard little office kitchen, a microwave, a fridge, a hot plate. It's a culinary lab. Muirvold is part of a movement, a strange, fascinating, growing movement. It's sometimes called molecular gastronomy, or, less pompously, it's called modernist cuisine. He traces its roots to the mid-1980s, when there were a handful of chefs-

• 9:36Speaker 05

  Particularly a guy named Ferran Adria in Spain, started experimenting with techniques that pushed the envelope of what was possible in food.

• 9:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  These chefs brought a lot of science into the kitchen. They used the tools of chemistry, physics, even engineering to build new textures, new sensations, to do things you might not have thought possible, or advisable, with food. So today, in some of the most expensive restaurants in the world, they produce some of the most sought-after dishes. Maybe you'd like to start with the white beet soup with liquid nitrogen-frozen crab apple spätzle. Then maybe you'll move on to the bison, pan-seared with bacon bits and tapioca starch, alongside a dehydrated leek ring with a goat cheese sphere and chili powder on foamed carrot juice. And, for dessert, maybe you'd like to smoke our virtual chocolate cake from

• 10:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  a pipe?

• 10:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  To put together his intellectual venture's kitchen, Myhrvold recruited some chefs who appreciated modernist cuisine as much as he did, who looked at the kitchen as a place to experiment, to have fun, where you'll cut up a watermelon in a meat slicer, then vacuum-infuse starch into its cells so that you can deep fry yourself some watermelon potato chips, where you consider the hamburger, the humble hamburger, a piece of food that's worthy of a scientific overhaul.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  You have a problem with a hamburger if you'd like to have the meat cooked perfectly, at least I'd like it medium rare, but you also like the outside to be brown and crusty. And it's very hard to get the outside brown and crusty without having a fairly thick layer of sort of a grayish, overcooked meat in there. If you've ever bitten into a hamburger and looked at it, you'll see particularly a thin hamburger. There's only a very tiny amount that's actually medium rare. Turns out there's a way to solve that, and our ultimate hamburger is you take the hamburger, you cook it sous vide.

• 11:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Sous vide, that means under vacuum, when you seal food in a plastic bag and cook it very slowly in a warm water bath.

• 11:50Speaker 05

  So then you cook it to perfect medium rare, then you dunk it in liquid nitrogen, which freezes the outside. Then we deep fry it. We pop it in a deep fryer, or you use a torch on it, a blowtorch. And either one will give you this incredible crusty outside, but because you put it in liquid nitrogen, that prevents it from overcooking. So you get perfect medium rare hamburger.

• 12:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  We should make it clear here that Myhrvold hasn't been doing all this experimental cooking just for kicks. Last year, he published a cookbook called Modernist Cuisine.

• 12:23Speaker 05

  Well, it is an encyclopedic treatment of the science of cooking, how cooking really works, and describes modern cooking techniques that evolved over the course of the last 20 years.

• 12:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's not your typical cookbook in ambition or size.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  Six volumes, 2,400 pages, 3,500 color photographs, 1,600 recipes. My favorite statistic is if you took the text and you put it all in one line, just at the 10-point size, it would be six miles long.

• 13:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Modernist cuisine retails for $625, but you can get it cheaper on Amazon. So far, it's sold well over 20,000 copies. It was produced by a team of three dozen people: chefs, writers, editors, photographers. In it, you'll find all sorts of recipes, as well as entire chapters on microbiology for cooks, the physics of food and water, and a chapter on foams.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  Bread is a foam. You may not think of it that way, but bread is what we classify as a set foam. Gas in the bread, which is created either by baking powder or created by yeast, foams a dough, and then we heat it in the oven to set the starches and proteins. So tremendous amount of cooking is about foams. We want to explain how do foams actually work.

• 13:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Talk about the, some of the physical acts involved in making the book. So we're looking at a photograph here on your screen, "Traditional Cooking," and it seems to show, if I can tell without knowing, a cross-section of a pot with something that looks hammy in it, perhaps?

• 14:13Speaker 05

  It's a pork roast.

• 14:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  A pork roast, okay. And it looks as though there's fire embers, coal, coal embers, above and below. So some kind of Dutch oven-y.

• 14:23Speaker 05

  It's in a cast-iron Dutch oven.

• 14:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  But we're looking into the pot as though we have 3D vision. It's a cutaway. So describe, how do you make that?

• 14:32Speaker 05

  So that was one of the key concepts in the book, was that we wanted to show people what happens inside the pot, inside the microwave oven, inside whatever thing they're cooking in. And so we cut a lot of pots in half. We cut a whole microwave oven in half. We even cut a $5,000 professional steam oven in half, in order to show people what processes are going on during the cooking process.

• 15:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Presumably, there's not a lot of resale on a half of it, right?

• 15:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, we have two halves of one of the best kitchens in the world now.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  That kitchen is pretty remarkable in that unlike your kitchen, they have all kinds of amazing tools.

• 15:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Pablo Holman. He's one of the inventors at Intellectual Ventures.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  They have a drill press and a bandsaw in the kitchen, but they also have a rotary evaporator and a homogenizer and a centrifuge and a pharmaceutical freeze dryer.

• 15:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Holman is not part of the team that produced the cookbook, but he did sit really close to the Intellectual Ventures kitchen.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  And what they do is they make these really elaborate recipes. I mean, some of their recipes, their average is like 15 pages or something, and they'll spend like two weeks making something the size of a grape, which is amazing. I mean, they can really do some amazing stuff.

• 16:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  To be fair, Nathan Myhrvold points out that about 2/3 of the recipes in modernist cuisine can be made in a regular kitchen as long as you've got an adventurous spirit and don't mind ordering some ingredients online. You should, however, be prepared for instructions like, "drop frozen cherry spheres into hot sodium alginate bath", or "blend in calcium gluconalactate and xanthum gum to fully disperse", and if you're making gel cubes from concentrated fruit, make sure you know the acidity level so you'll know whether to use sodium hexametaphosphate or methylcellulose E4M as your gelling agent. Sounds fun, doesn't it? I'll tell you one person who doesn't think molecular gastronomy is much fun:

• 16:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Alice Waters.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  I can't say that I care a lot about it.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  I can't say that.

• 17:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And tell me why.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Because I'm trying to get back to a kind of a taste of food for what it is.

• 17:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  And molecular gastronomy is trying to accomplish what, in your view?

• 17:17Speaker 02

  In my view, it's to...

• 17:22Speaker 02

  You know, make it into something you can't imagine. You know, surprise you. Now, it's not to say that I haven't been delightfully surprised. It's not that. It's that I am so hungry for the taste of the real that I'm just not able to get into that which doesn't feel real to me. It's a kind of scientific experiment, and I think there are good scientists and, you

• 18:02Speaker 02

  know, crazy, crazy, crazy old scientists that can be very amusing.

• 18:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  You once said, "Looking at food is entertainment. That's how we got into this mess." Can you explain that? What do you mean by that exactly?

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Well, that we think that we really need to be amused at the table. And it's kind of taking your tray of food and going and watching television while you're doing it, that you haven't been introduced to food in a way that is gratifying, either in terms of taste or the experience of the table.

• 18:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Waters is, however, familiar with Myhrvold's book, and she doesn't entirely disapprove.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Well, it's an astonishing project, I have to say, and definitely should be in every library. I don't think we all need our own six volumes. But someone who's this interested in gastronomy is somebody very valuable to us in general, that we could educate ourselves. We need to know about the existence of that work and the time that went into it and the just, we need to think about this.

• 19:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm just curious, I have to ask, have you ever eaten a Big Mac, let's say?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  I did one time, actually. I did. I went to Kansas. And I was on the way to a board meeting at the Land Institute in Salona, Kansas. And I came in on a plane and hadn't eaten. And I thought I should get a little bite someplace before I went to the meeting. And I, then I decided I would do this little experiment and went to McDonald's drive-thru. And in and out in five minutes.

• 20:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  And?

• 20:09Speaker 02

  And.

• 20:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  How was it?

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Well, for me, it didn't, it wasn't tasty in a way. I mean, it was soft bread and salty french fries. And, I mean, really objectively, it was kind of nondescript.

• 20:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Alice Waters doesn't like Big Macs at all. And she thinks people like Nathan Myhrvold are mad scientists. Their pyrotechnics might be entertaining if you didn't have something better to do, if you didn't have maybe an open hearth where you can fry a free-range egg on a long-handled metal spoon and serve it over a salad of chives and tomatoes along with some organic bread. Alice Waters's idea of advancing the way we eat is to reconnect with the past. Not only how our food is prepared, but how it's grown or raised or caught. What she's after above all is simplicity.

• 21:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Nathan Myhrvold, for his part, loves Chez Panisse, Waters's restaurant, but he also loves complexity. And he loves bringing science into the kitchen. Because, he says, it's already there.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  Well, like it or not, physics happens. Okay? So it turns out when you heat a piece of meat, there's a set of physical principles that are at work. Wishing doesn't make the food hot. It's the way molecules bump into each other that makes it hot. And if you can understand that in a reasonable way, I think it informs how you do cooking. Now, is it possible to cook without understanding? Of course it is. And for people that want to just, in a rote way, repeat exactly what they were told to do without understanding why it works, hey, go for it. You don't need me. If all you want to do is repeat the recipes of the past and you have no curiosity as

• 22:10Speaker 05

  to how or why it works, then you don't need to have this physical understanding. On the other hand, I'd say, look, why does it ruin the experience to understand how and why it works?

• 22:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Nathan Myhrvold and Alice Waters both have an obvious passion for the future of food, but radically different ways to realize that vision. Myhrvold has a pharmaceutical freeze dryer that retails for $50,000. Waters doesn't even own a microwave. But the amazing thing is that her ideas have gained so much ground. A few decades ago, the organic food movement was fringe at best. Now, the USDA approves organic foods to be sold at Walmart. But what about Myhrvold's experimental approach? Is supercharging your dinner with ingredients that are centrifuged at 60,000 RPM really worthwhile? Cutting a microwave in half is good for grins, but is that all?

• 23:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is Myhrvold's $600 cookbook just a new toy for the Tesla crowd? Or is there a chance that all his scientific inquiry might trickle down to you and me? Or, better yet, to the hundreds of millions of people who could care less about molecular gastronomy because they're too busy trying to scrounge up a bowl of rice so their kids don't go to bed hungry? And what if the future of food doesn't even involve cooking as we know it?

• 23:41Speaker 03

  And you just push one of those buttons, and the machine has toner cartridges of frozen or dried and powdered foods. And it goes down and puts a little pixel of powdered food down, hydrates it with a needle, zaps it with a laser to cook it, and rinse and repeat for every pixel, and it prints you a meal.

• 24:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up, we talk some more to the well-fed inventor Pablo Holman about a revolutionary idea.

• 24:34Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 25:19Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 26:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did. Since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc.

• 26:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 27:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here's Pablo Holman again, The Intellectual Ventures inventor. He made his name as a hacker.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  You know, what hackers are good for is just discovering what's possible, right? I mean, the mindset of a hacker, you know, they're good at figuring out all the things that are possible that, you know, the manufacturer never intended. It's kind of like being a scientist, just without all the formal training and accountability.

• 27:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here are some of the projects that Holman has worked on. Commercial spaceflight, building the world's smallest computer, making self-sterilizing elevator buttons for hospitals, and trying to stop hurricanes from reaching land.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Last year, I tried to cure cancer, which didn't work out.

• 27:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Holman isn't what you'd call a foodie, but for the past few years at Intellectual Ventures, Holman sat right next to the big experimental kitchen where Nathan Myhrvold and his comrades try out their new modernist recipes.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  I mean, I laughed out loud. They made me some foamed baked potato, and it tastes like baked potato with butter and bacon bits and chives and everything in there, but it was foam. And I took a bite of it and I just lit up. I couldn't believe how good it was.

• 28:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Holman's proximity to the kitchen lab got him thinking a bit more about how Americans eat, and it didn't take long to spot a lot of inefficiencies. Behind every supermarket, there's a dumpster full of expired food and pounds and pounds of packaging. By some estimates, between 1/3 and 1/2 of all food produced in America is never eaten.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  The inefficiency is consolidated around the last mile of how we eat. So, we're really good at efficiency on an industrial scale. We're good at agriculture, and we're good at agricultural efficiency. We are not good at efficiency in the last mile where we take those ingredients and prepare them and serve them.

• 29:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Holman decided to do something about it.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  So, you know, my original vision was this kind of ATM machine that you walk up to, and it shows you three buttons: what I ate yesterday, what my friends like, or I'm feeling lucky. And you just push one of those buttons, and the machine has toner cartridges of frozen or dried and powdered foods. And it goes down and puts a little pixel of powdered food down, hydrates it with a needle, zaps it with a laser to cook it, and rinse and repeat for every pixel, and it prints you a meal.

• 29:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Doesn't that sound absurd? Kind of how it must have sounded absurd when someone suggested an ATM dispensing cash instead of a bank teller. What Holman has in mind is essentially a 3D printer that can print food. Now, 3D printers have been around for years. They're called rapid prototypers. In fact, Intellectual Ventures already uses them to make plastic models of a brain aneurysm so the neurosurgeon can study its shape and size before cutting through the patient's skull. What if you could use a rapid prototyper to print food?

• 30:31Speaker 03

  So what would happen is, just like an inkjet printer you have at home, instead of putting down droplets of ink, I'm putting down droplets of food. But I control every single pixel. I can use a laser to cook a pixel of food and get it exactly as warm as I want, exactly as slow or as fast as I want. I think by comparison, what has been done in cooking is Neanderthal. It's very primitive. I mean, we don't have that kind of resolution and control of our cooking. And there's a lot of other advantages. So in this system, all my ingredients are prepared on an industrial scale, and they are preserved at the point of origin.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  If you go to the best restaurants in the world, they don't serve you market-fresh produce. They serve you produce that was ripened on the tree and picked ripe and flash-frozen on-site. And that's because that's the optimal way to preserve all the flavor and all the nutrition and ingredients that are in there. And so what I want to do is bring that to everybody. So in my system, all the ingredients come from the farm, directly off the tree. They're frozen or dried on-site and powdered. And so I take that, I put it in a sealed toner cartridge. The FedEx guy comes by once a day and swaps out the empties in the machine.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  And so when it's making you a meal, it's using optimally-preserved ingredients.

• 32:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you're thinking that Holman sounds like someone who's just read too much science fiction, well...

• 32:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  Chefs can be designing meals in CAD programs, and they can print out tesolated 3D fractal hamburgers if they want. You can do something here that's not been possible before. I can make a meal where maybe you have a meal the size and shape of a Snickers bar or something, but you start at one end with an appetizer and you work your way through a... Entree and then end up with dessert at the other end.

• 32:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  But the more you listen to him, or at least the more I listen to him, the more you realize how thoroughly he's thought this through. And even if the invention he eventually winds up with is only 1% as good as he's hoping for, it seriously might start to change the world.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  When I'm printing you a meal, I have total control over what's in there. So when I print your meal, I get your allergens accounted for, any dietary restrictions are avoided. I might incorporate your pharmaceuticals. I might be sending a report back to your doctor that, you know, you're getting exactly the right dosage of these things every day. And then I can do really cool things. Once you're eating from printers like this, I mean, the fundamental part is that we've networked your food consumption. And now we know a lot more about what you eat and we can use that to help you out. So we can have apps that wean you off of sodium or cholesterol, things that you might be having a problem with now.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  Just imagine if you had a problem with too much sodium. Well, I can just ratchet it down a few milligrams a day over the next few months to get you down to, you know, closer to zero, right? And you'll never even notice it's happening because everything, every time you eat something, it'll taste exactly like what I had yesterday. It just won't taste exactly like what you had last month. Those possibilities don't exist in the way we eat now.

• 34:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Networked food consumption, eliminating food waste by producing just-in-time meals, which potentially could also help keep you healthier. Yeah, it sounds like science fiction, but think about how our current food system might have looked to someone 100 years ago, to someone who ate a piece of meat once a week if he was lucky, to a mom who could only count on feeding her family whatever happened to be in the root cellar. And no, children, you won't be having any fresh calcium-fortified orange juice from Florida or Brazil this morning, or any other morning. Science has already changed the way we eat a great deal, and it will continue to do so. How? I can't predict the future.

• 34:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  What I can say is that the kind of changes that will make Pablo's Holman and Nathan Myhrvold happy? Probably won't make Alice Waters very happy.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  We need to come back to our senses and come back into that sort of river of civilization that has food as part of culture and agriculture.

• 35:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  By the way, Pablo's Holman is not alone in thinking about a food printer. A group of engineers at Cornell has got a prototype in the hands of a New York chef. And can you imagine how nice it would be to have a few of these printers, or maybe a few hundred or thousand food printers, that you could airlift into some disaster zone after a hurricane or an earthquake? All right, Pablo's, one last question. What'd you have for dinner last night?

• 35:41Speaker 03

  So last night, I had a-- I live in Seattle, and there's parts of town are on the street, they have street vendors selling hot dogs with cream cheese, and I love those things. They're unbelievably good.

• 35:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  A hot dog with cream cheese? That may not be your idea or my idea of a great meal, but you know what? It works for Pablo's Holman. And not just the food itself, but the very, very low opportunity cost.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  It was fast, you know? Took me probably three minutes to buy it and eat it. And, you know, those other 57 minutes of that hour that somebody else might have spent shopping, or cleaning, or cooking, you know, I got to spend salsa dancing.

• 36:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up, we stop eating and start tweeting. And we ask, how social do you have to be in a social network?

• 36:44Speaker 06

  I would say that it's almost a status symbol to be followed by many people and follow very few.

• 37:08Speaker 07

  Freakonomics Radio explores the hidden side of everything. Sponsoring the Freakonomics podcast could help nearly a million listeners a week discover your business. Email us at [email protected].

• 37:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Levitt, when we first thought about starting a Twitter account for Freakonomics, a couple of smart media consultants told me that it would be very poor form to expect people to follow us unless we followed a lot of people as well, that it was, there's really a reciprocity at work here. And we didn't follow that advice. And we, we follow zero people on our Twitter account. How do you feel about that?

• 37:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  We have a Twitter account?

• 37:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Steve Levitt and I, he's my Freakonomics friend and co-author, we did start a Twitter account. But we aren't what you'd call aggressive tweeters. We don't tell people what we had for breakfast, or what show we're watching on TV, or which kid lost which tooth. In fact, all we really do is send out links to our blog posts, or this radio show, stuff like that. But here's the thing, we have a lot of followers, at least what seems to me like a lot of followers, roughly 400,000 people. Now, that probably doesn't really mean much. It costs nothing to follow someone on Twitter. All you have to do is click your mouse one time. A lot of those people probably never read a single thing we tweet. Still, it's kind of cool.

• 38:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  But as I told Levitt, we don't follow anyone on Twitter. It just seemed like, if you're going to follow some people, then you'd feel bad about not following other people. Next thing you know, you're spending your whole day on Twitter figuring out who to follow, who to be followed by. So for us, Twitter is a one-way street. It's a little bullhorn, nothing else. So here's a question for you. Does that make us jerks? Or, since we're talking about Twitter, does that make us twerks? Do you think that Freakonomics should start following people on Twitter?

• 39:09Speaker 06

  Okay, my name is Duncan Watts. I'm a principal research scientist at Yahoo Research, where I run a group called the Human Social Dynamics Group. And we're interested in all sorts of questions that have to do with social networks, and how information diffuses through social networks, how people influence each other, and how all of this helps us to understand social behaviour.

• 39:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Duncan Watts is a sociologist who taught at Columbia before moving on to Yahoo. He's at the forefront of what's called network theory: how people are connected, whether in person or virtually, and what those connections yield. He's written a few books: Six Degrees, a sort of academic take on the Kevin Bacon thing, and more recently, a book called Everything is Obvious Once You Know the Answer. It's about common sense and how it lets us down. Watts still writes academic papers, too. One recent paper is called "Who Says What to Whom on Twitter?"

• 40:09Speaker 06

  It's true that, you know, there are millions of users on Twitter who are listening to millions of other users. But we also find that there's a remarkable concentration of attention. So about 50% of all tweets that a random person on Twitter receives on any given day come from just 20,000 users, right? So that's about one-half of 1/10th of a percent of all the users on Twitter.

• 40:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do you call this as a sociologist, then, in terms of distribution?

• 40:45Speaker 06

  Well, it's a skewed distribution, but you certainly see this kind of distribution in activity. If you look at, you know, how active people are on Twitter, you see the same thing, where there's a small number of people who are very, very active.

• 40:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were you surprised to find a concentration that intense?

• 41:04Speaker 08

  Well, I mean, we are used to seeing these skewed distributions. So I think not in principle. It was still striking just how concentrated it was.

• 41:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  It may be more striking to people who don't know what these distributions usually look like. I mean, it may be more surprising to people who've been hearing for the past couple of years that Twitter is the great democratization of communication.

• 41:26Speaker 08

  And it is. But what happens in democracies is that everybody pays attention to the same people. You know, so I think that it might change our view of democratization.

• 41:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Last year, during the Arab Spring uprisings, Twitter helped stoke the fires of revolution. But those were extraordinary circumstances. Under ordinary circumstances, what we see is that a relatively tiny group of people on Twitter wield most of the power. Remind you of any place else you know, like the offline world? Duncan Watts says he became a sociologist to study exactly this kind of thing: whose voices get heard in social situations? How people in groups interact? How groups form? How firms form? How markets form? This is the kind of thing that sociologists have been fascinated with since the beginning

• 42:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  of sociology. Trouble is, it's always been hard to quantify.

• 42:27Speaker 08

  The problem is that, you know, actually measuring any of this, observing any of this, has been historically impossible. So although, you know, we have theories about social networks that go back, you know, 50 or 60 years, and the sort of, you know, quantitative study of social networks goes back almost as long, in practice, it's been restricted to very small groups of people.

• 42:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  As many people as you could hit with a clipboard and a questionnaire or something like that, right?

• 42:57Speaker 08

  Something like that, right? You're asking, you know, you're handing out survey tools, or you're, you know, in some great, you know, some of the classic studies, you know, sociologists would even sort of sit in a donut shop and record painstakingly every single time a person talked to another person, and then they would sort of extract the communication network out of these interactions that they observed, which is very creative.

• 43:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, but today seems extremely archaic, right?

• 43:21Speaker 08

  Well, it is.

• 43:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, the sample size is tiny, the sample pollution, I guess, is strong, depending on which coffee shop you happen to pick, right?

• 43:28Speaker 08

  And you can only do it for, you know, until your brain explodes.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  Which is, you know, for most humans, a couple of hours. So you can't really sort of measure anything or observe anything that's happening over extended periods of time.

• 43:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  The mountains of data being generated in an online ecosystem like Twitter are enough to make a sociologist like Duncan Watts put down his clipboard and drool. Twitter has about 100 million active users, sending out more than 250 million tweets, that's 250 million data points, every day. Even from those broad numbers, you can tell. For every aggressive user tweeting, let's say, 20 times a day, there's an army of folks who just sit still, keep quiet. Or maybe who signed up because everyone else is signing up, the way everybody used to sign up to write a blog and then abandoned it. But if you're a sociologist, even these things are good to know.

• 44:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Social network sites like Twitter and Facebook are changing the way academics see the world.

• 44:31Speaker 06

  What we're seeing is actually not different from how people behave offline. It's just that we have a vastly increased ability to observe it, and so it sort of seems different. You know, people seem to think that they have many more friends now because of Facebook than they used to have, and that, at the same time, the quality of those friendships has somehow diminished. Particularly in the media, people are sort of wringing their hands over how, you know, friendship has become somehow diluted. But for most people, this is actually not true, right? For most ordinary Facebook users, the people that they're friends with on Facebook are, in fact, people that they're not, right?

• 45:11Speaker 06

  Now, many of them may actually not be close friends, and without Facebook around, they may not have a record of these interactions existing. And so if you asked them in a pre-Facebook world how many friends they had, they probably would say, "Oh, you know, a few dozen or something," right? Because they would just be thinking about people who they really count as friends. But now we have Facebook to remind us that we have all these kind of, this sort of vastly larger halo of peripheral relationships, and so we sort of feel like we have more friends. Somehow that they're less real than the ones we used to have, but actually we always had them.

• 45:49Speaker 06

  So there's sort of an interesting kind of measurement effect here where you you you simply allow people to measure things and it changes their perception of those things. So it's sort of, you know, I don't want to say that nothing is different online because clearly there are things that are different. And it may just be because it's anonymity.

• 46:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right anonymity is strong, but I mean, you're you're right. And the the division or the the gap can be even something less profound than anonymity. Like if you're driving in your car and somebody cuts you off, you might flip them the bird or do what. But walking on the street and they cut you off on the sidewalk, the physical proximity changes.

• 46:25Speaker 06

  Right.

• 46:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Everything.

• 46:25Speaker 06

  That's a that's a great analogy. And in fact, you know, there's a the I'm sure you're familiar with the the classic obedience studies of Stanley Milgram back in the 1950s. And he found exactly this kind of result. The subject of the experiment was told that he was conducting a learning experiment on on on someone else who who turned out to be an actor. And he was supposed to be giving this person electric shocks whenever they made a mistake. And so the actor was sort of pretending to be, you know, getting more and more tortured by these shocks. And and the shocking result was that a remarkable number of people cranked up the the voltage to to sort of lethal levels. Simply because some experimenter was telling them to do that.

• 47:06Speaker 06

  Now, what a a lesser known result of those experiments is that Milgram tried a bunch of different. Conditions, you know, in one case they they actually had to sit there and hold the subject's hand on the plate. And so they were sort of physically in contact with the person they were shocking. In another one, the guy was visible, but in another room, in another one, he was on the other side of a wall. So you could hear him, but you couldn't see him. And sure enough, the further that person was away, the more sort of socially distant they were, the more inclined people were to to exercise what seems like.

• 47:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  I didn't know that. That's interesting.

• 47:44Speaker 06

  So I I think this it's an excellent point that you raise.

• 47:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up, what do Barack Obama and Yoko Ono have in common? And why is Justin Halpern way cooler than either of them?

• 48:32Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 49:17Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 49:35Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 50:40Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 51:16Speaker 04

  From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 51:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  There's a website called Twitterholic that's full of Twitter statistics. If you like Twitter at all, you have to go to this site. You can thank me later. It shows Lady Gaga with the most followers, 17.6 million, and Justin Bieber is second with 16 million. The entire top 10 is made up of pop stars, except for Kim Kardashian, who I guess isn't quite a pop star, at number four, and at number seven, President Barack Obama, who's got 11.7 million followers.

• 51:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  But here's what's interesting. If you resort the top 10, not by number of followers, but by the number of people that they follow, you come up with a very different list. Only Britney Spears and President Obama remain in the top 10. The president follows 684,000 people. In fact, three of the top 11 followers in the world are politicians: Obama, British Prime Minister David Cameron, and former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Such generous people, these politicians. And who's the most generous follower on Twitter? That would be Yoko Ono.

• 52:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  She follows about 740,000 people and has about 1.7 million followers herself. So that's one follow for every 2.3 followers. Which made me wonder, if you want a lot of Twitter followers, do you need to follow a lot of people yourself? I asked Duncan Watts to look into the numbers for the top 1,000 users. His conclusion? There's no trend, no correlation between following and being followed. But still, if our online lives are really just an extension of our offline lives, just as a matter of common courtesy, shouldn't you reciprocate?

• 53:17Speaker 09

  My name is Justin Halpern, and I created [BLEEP] my dad says, and I'm author of a book by the same name and one of the writers of a television show by the same name.

• 53:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. And Justin, how would you then assess the importance of Twitter in your life and career?

• 53:35Speaker 09

  I would say it is possibly the most important thing, aside from my father. Without Twitter, I definitely don't think any of what has just happened in my life happens.

• 53:47Speaker 10

  I'm afraid if we get internet, I'll have to move to higher ground.

• 53:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Here's the blurb from Halpern's Twitter page, quote, "I'm 29, I live with my 74-year-old dad, he is awesome, I just write down [BLEEP] that he says." The [BLEEP] Halpern's dad says has attracted a lot of readers, nearly 3 million followers on Twitter. It was his Twitter feed that led to the book, that led to the TV show. He has more Twitter followers than Arnold Schwarzenegger, J.K. Rowling, and the NFL. But what I wanted to know is, how many people does he follow?

• 54:26Speaker 09

  I only follow one person.

• 54:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who do you follow?

• 54:30Speaker 09

  I only follow LeVar Burton of Reading Rainbow fame.

• 54:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Reading Rainbow fame and also Star Trek: The Next Generation fame, Roots fame.

• 54:39Speaker 09

  That's true. I did not give him enough accolades.

• 54:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you thought, if I'm gonna follow one person, LeVar Burton seems to be deserving of that honor?

• 54:47Speaker 09

  Yeah, I did think that.

• 54:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  And at the time that you decided to follow LeVar Burton and LeVar Burton only, how many followers did you have?

• 54:58Speaker 09

  I had zero.

• 55:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, so this was before [BLEEP] My Dad Says was [BLEEP] My Dad Says even?

• 55:04Speaker 09

  It was, it was. This is when [BLEEP] My Dad Says was read by me and one friend who didn't have a Twitter account.

• 55:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  So forgive my ignorance on this score, but I see that you generally, at least in the last year, let's say, you haven't tweeted very much, maybe 50 tweets in the past year, which, look, if you can build a brand called [BLEEP] My Dad Says out of [BLEEP] Your Dad Says and just do it in 50 posts a year, that means that you're wonderfully efficient and economical. But back in the day, were you tweeting a lot more?

• 55:35Speaker 09

  I was. When I first started, I was living with him and normally sitting next to him for like eight to 10 hours a day working. So I was getting a lot of stuff and I would tweet like, you know, one thing a day. And then since I've been working and I haven't been near him as much, it goes down.

• 55:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Have people contacted you, though, over the years and said, hey, you know, you've become a big deal guy now with [BLEEP] My Dad Says and I follow you and I like it, but man, you only follow one guy and it's another famous guy. That's just not fair. Do people give you trouble for that?

• 56:12Speaker 09

  Yeah, I got one message was, who do you think you are to only follow one person? And I didn't really have a response to that other than, I don't think I'm anybody. I just only follow LeVar Burton.

• 56:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Justin Halpern has had incredible success on Twitter, which is a social media ecosystem, by essentially being antisocial. Is there anything wrong with that? If people like to follow him, who are we to say that he has to reciprocate? At least he's not what Twitter insiders call the one-night-stand, where you sign up to follow lots of people, hoping they'll follow you back, and then you dump them a day later. Here's Duncan Watts again.

• 57:00Speaker 06

  I think Justin Halpern might be more the exception than the rule. I think that there are bona fide Twitter-generated celebrities, people who were not known beforehand, who became known through their activity on Twitter. Although even Justin Halpern probably wouldn't be nearly as famous as he is if he hadn't got a book deal that became a bestseller and a TV show. And so you're always sort of... One of the dangers of studying a single platform like Twitter is that you see a signal on it, and you want to understand the cause. Why did somebody become popular?

• 57:44Speaker 06

  And the answer often lies outside of the system that you're studying. So most of the, I think, all of the top 10 most-followed people are household names. I mean, these are people who were famous before Twitter came along, and they're still famous. And they're famous not because of Twitter, but because they're on TV all the time, and they're in all the celebrity magazines. And there's a whole much, much larger media ecosystem that is constantly putting them in our faces.

• 58:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  But let me ask you this. If you look at the very top tweeters, it's true that they are very much household names, to the nth degree, with many millions of followers. But at least a couple of them, including our president, also follow a lot of people. He has 11.7 million followers, but he follows more than 680,000 people. Now, we assume he's not actually reading their tweets, so what's the point?

• 58:34Speaker 06

  Well, so again, it's worth emphasizing again here that Twitter is not a social network. Now, social networks are characterized by very, very high levels of reciprocity. So if I say that I'm friends with you, it's very likely that you will also say that you're friends with me. It's not always true, but it's very often the case that-

• 58:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And if not, then I stop being a participant in that social network, essentially.

• 58:58Speaker 06

  It's a funny kind of friendship if only one person thinks that it exists. Okay? So whereas in communication networks, it's totally different. You know, the entire nation can watch Barack Obama give the State of the Union address, but he can't, you know, watch everybody's YouTube videos.

• 59:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  True, true enough. But what would be the, what would the purpose be then? If I'm Barack Obama and I have a Twitter feed, and I have, I or someone around me presumably, not me myself, has come to the conclusion that we should tweet to, you know, get our message out. It makes perfect sense and we should get millions of followers because we're communicators almost above all. But also, why do I want to follow 700,000 people? What's in it for me? Is it just the appearance of reciprocity that is supposed to translate into some general feeling of goodwill?

• 59:51Speaker 06

  Well, I actually think that, my guess is that, that different kinds of users have different reasons for using Twitter.

• 59:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me ask you this. There are some people then who are followed by a great, great, great many people and yet who follow nobody. So for instance, Stephen Colbert is followed by more than 2 million people. It's a lot of Twitter followers and follows zero. What do you, first of all, do you have a name for people like that? And what, what can you say about them?

• 1:00:19Speaker 06

  Well, you know, putting on my amateur armchair psychologist hat here, I would say that it's almost a status symbol to be followed by many people and follow, and follow very few. It's sort of like having lots of followers even though you don't tweet very much. It's sort of like, well, I'm not even really trying, you know, and I'm still popular. So, but, you know, I'm gonna, again, guess that there are, you know, sort of, these are all individual people with their own agendas and psychologies and, you know, there's probably as many reasons for these patterns as, as there are people.

• 1:01:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Not even trying and still popular. Wow. Is that how we want to be? I've seen firsthand how successful Justin Halpern is, and he only follows Jordi La Forge. I heard Duncan Watts say that you don't necessarily have to follow to be followed. Still, is that how Freakonomics should behave on Twitter? Steve Levitt and I had a summit the other day. We talked it over.

• 1:01:33Speaker 11

  Well, I would say, given that neither you nor I has ever gone on Twitter, other than to send out our blog posts, that why don't we follow everyone? Since we don't look at what they're saying anyway, and if it makes people feel good to follow them, why not follow every single person on Twitter? That could be our claim to fame, is that we follow every person on Twitter. As long as we never look at the account, it won't cost us anything.

• 1:01:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  I like it. I like the strategy. Or, alternatively, we could follow one person. We could pick one, dedicate ourselves to that person's feed, and really pay attention. So if it were one, who would you want to follow?

• 1:02:11Speaker 11

  Lindsay Lohan?

• 1:02:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who would you follow? Who would I follow? I'll tell you what I'd do. I'd auction it off. I'd say, "We haven't followed anybody. It's time for us to follow someone. What's the highest bidder?"

• 1:02:28Speaker 11

  The strangest thing to me about Twitter is I'd never been on Twitter, and I went on, and I had a Twitter account, and it had one tweet. And it had my picture, and it was from me, and I don't-- and some person faked it. I don't know why they stopped after one. But they've only did one post. They still had, you know, a couple thousand followers from that one post. So maybe it's time for that person to get busy and start doing some more posts, says me.

• 1:02:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  What was the tweet that the fake Steve Levitt tweeted?

• 1:02:59Speaker 11

  It was the traditional first tweet. "Here I am. Time to get going on Twitter." Something like that.

• 1:03:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what does that say to you, though? That you got a fake Steve Levitt out there who makes one totally worthless tweet, and it gets 1,000 or 2 followers? What's that say to you about the value of time that people engage in the Twitter atmosphere?

• 1:03:20Speaker 11

  Well, I'm offended that the guy didn't do more posts. I want to see what I have to say.

• 1:03:40Speaker 04

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC, APM, American Public Media, and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Susie Lechtenberg and Jeff Mosencas. Our staff includes Diana Nguyen, Catherine Wells, Borey Lam, and Chris Bannon. Our engineer is David Herman. Colin Campbell is our executive producer. If you want more Freakonomics Radio, subscribe to our free podcast on iTunes and go to Freakonomics.com, where you'll find lots of radio, a blog, the books, and more.

• 1:04:33Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:05:03Stephen J. Dubner?

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