S3 Ep356: BTK | A Name for the Monster (Part 2)

In 1974, Wichita, Kansas was shaken by a series of brutal attacks inside family homes. Men, women, and children were bound, tortured, and killed by a predator who called himself BTK. For 17 years, he terrorized the community, claiming at least 10 victims and taunting police with disturbing letters that detailed his crimes. Then in 1991, the killings abruptly stopped, leaving law enforcement and the public to wonder if the killer had vanished forever. For more than a decade, there was silence. Then in 2004, BTK resurfaced with new messages, reigniting fear in Wichita. But that renewed need for attention would ultimately be his downfall, and by the following year, detectives had identified the killer as Dennis Rader, a father of two, a Scout leader, and a trusted member of his church council. Rader was the last person anyone suspected of being a sexual sadist serial killer, but once investigators began putting all the puzzle pieces together, it became clear that Rader’s family-man persona was just a mask covering the monster beneath. Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!2. https://www. LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 20% off your first order!3. https://www. Rula.com/CrimeWeekly - Take the first steps to better mental health today. After signing up, let them know we sent you!4. https://www. HelloFresh.com/CrimeWeekly10FM - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY10FM for 10 FREE meals and FREE breakfast for life!5. https://www. TryFum.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get a FREE gift with your order!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So before we get started, as always, I'm going to give you a recap of last episode because it's been a week. But Derek, do you want to say something?

• 0:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we had talked before we started recording this one because many of you already know BTK. And we just wanted to give you a heads up. We're going to give you as many details about these cases. Stephanie prides herself on going as deep as possible, but there are details about some of the crimes, especially against children, where we're going to talk about it. But Stephanie and I have decided not to go into the detail of every single one because frankly, it's not needed.

• 0:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just for our own well-being and yours too. Yeah.

• 0:52Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not needed.

• 0:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's horrific. I mean, you can look it up if you want. The details are out there.

• 0:57Derrick Levasseur?

  You don't need to.

• 0:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you're going to understand what we're saying when we say it, but...

• 1:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. There are specific crimes against children where you're going to get the point. But if you're sitting there going, well, why aren't they going into how horrific it really was? We're accomplishing what we want here. We're telling you the story, but we have children. A lot of you out there have children. We don't have to rehash every single detail of what he did to these kids. It's just not worth it for us. That's not what we're here to do. So we wanted to at least give you that heads up at the top of the show to let you know as we go through some of his crimes, there may be certain omissions intentionally. So what we had talked about it, I agree with Stephanie. This is not, we didn't want to put it in there. So that's all I had.

• 1:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Dennis Rader spent most of his life trying to control two sides of himself, the good and the bad, the white hat and the black hat, as he put it. The white hat went to church, got married, had kids, tried to live a normal life, but the black hat never really went away. It thrived on fantasies of control, bondage, and power over others. By late 1973, the black hat had taken over and Dennis Rader started prowling neighborhoods looking for the ideal victim. The moment came when he spotted a woman and two young children leaving their Wichita, Kansas, home. He decided he would kill all three of them, naming his plan Project Little Max. On the morning of January 15th, 1974, Dennis Rader parked down the street from the woman's

• 2:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  house, got out of his car with his hit kit, which included a gun, a buck knife, tape, trash bags, binding cords, and a hangman's noose. And he walked toward his chosen target. As soon as he got there, he jumped the fence and cut the phone line. But then he saw paw prints in the snow. As he hesitated for a split second, wondering if he should stop, because he hadn't planned for a dog being there, the back door opened and Rader decided there was no turning back. He went into the house, ready to live out his darkest fantasies. The house Rader was targeting belonged to Joseph and Julie Otero, who had moved to Wichita in the fall of 1973. Joseph Senior was a retired Air Force mechanic and flight instructor, and Julie worked at

• 3:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Coleman, one of the city's largest employers. Rader had actually worked there at one time as well. The couple had five children. Fifteen-year-old Charlie, fourteen-year-old Danny, thirteen-year-old Carmen, eleven-year-old Josephine, and nine-year-old Joey. The Oteros were known as devoted parents who worked hard to give their children a loving and stable home. On most mornings, Joseph left before eight to drop the three older kids off at school before heading to work. And Dennis Rader knew this because he'd been watching the house for some time. This was part of the family's routine. He was watching to get an idea of what the family's routine was. That way, when he went into the house, he knew Joseph wasn't going to be there, the

• 3:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  older children weren't going to be there, it would just be Julie and her two younger children. And Joseph did the same thing. He did this on the morning of January 15th, 1974. But instead of going to work afterwards, he came back home for a few minutes. And that's why he was there with his wife Julie and his two younger children, Joey and Josephine, when Dennis Rader jumped the fence into their backyard. Rader later described what happened next to Dr. Katherine Ramsland, who wrote Confession of a Serial Killer, based on their conversations. Rader said that Julie opened the back door and Rader walked in, holding his gun. Joseph initially thought it was a prank, something his brother-in-law had set up. I don't know why he would think that.

• 4:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, was Joseph Otero's brother-in-law kind of like a...

• 4:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  An extreme jokester because that's a little intense for your brother-in-law to set up a prank like that. But Joseph even noticed Raider's Air Force parka and mentioned that he had served too. And that's when Raider grabbed him by the collar, showed him the gun and made it clear that this was not a joke. Raider told them he was wanted by the police after going AWOL from the Air Force and that he needed a car, money and food. He found the family's car keys, their purses, wallets, while the Otero's explained that they didn't have any money and their car was out of gas. Raider recalled that they didn't seem overly panicked, but inside he was, he was panicking. He felt like he was losing control of the situation because this is not what he had planned for.

• 5:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Dennis Rader, if we know anything about him, he likes to be in control. So for one thing, the family's dog kept barking, which was making him nervous. Raider asked Joseph to put the dog outside, but Joseph said it was too cold for the short-haired dog to be outside. He offered to move the dog to another room instead, which Raider initially agreed to. But of course, the barking continued, so the dog was finally let out into the yard. I remember reading about this when I was looking into the case and thinking that at this point, I don't know if I would have been one of the family members who was tasked with letting the dog out. And if I would have made like a letter if I could, or a note of some kind, like "Otero family need help with my address",

• 6:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  and then like tied it to the dog's collar and then let him out the front door. So he could go through the neighborhood instead of letting him into the back, which was fenced. Because at this point, I don't think the family knew what was in store for them. But with the hindsight of knowing what happened to them, I would have been trying anything to alert somebody that something bad was happening in that house. So they let the dog outside and Raider said he thought about leaving at that point. The plan wasn't going how he'd imagined and he'd forgotten to pull his ski mask down, meaning they could identify him. Once again, a detail that I never understood. How do you go to all these lengths? To break into a house, stalk this family for weeks, have all the details down pat,

• 6:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  be so invested in having control over every situation. And before you hopped the fence, you didn't remember to pull your ski mask down?

• 6:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it comes down to adrenaline, right? Like, I think it's something where he's probably been thinking about this moment for weeks, months, if not years. And he's planned out every little detail. And then that one thing that's staring you right in the face, that's on top of your head, you forget to do it. I'm not trying to give BTK any credit here, but I think that's one thing where you might even forget because you're still looking through the eye holes. You don't even realize you didn't put it on before you jumped the fence. It's an oversight, for sure.

• 7:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Here's what I've always theorized. I don't believe him. I don't believe that he forgot to pull his ski mask down. I think either he was wearing his ski mask, but then in the aftermath, he just wanted to make it more like justifiable of why, what he did to these people and why he had to kill every single one of them, including the children. I think he wanted to be like, well, they saw my face. And what was I supposed to do? Or he went in there not even worried about having a ski mask on for his first time because he knew he was gonna kill every single person in that house, right?

• 7:58Derrick Levasseur?

  That's all, I mean-

• 8:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he's trying to make himself look better in hindsight.

• 8:02Derrick Levasseur?

  These psychopaths, man. I, I don't know. Because at this point, he's not getting out. And so you're right. He could, if we are gonna sit here and say that we believe every account that he's told us, you're a fool. Because we know that he's, he's omitted certain details, he's, he's exaggerated others. I, I don't know, man. You do your best with what you have.

• 8:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not even the details, because we, we have forensics that can-

• 8:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Can corroborate what he said, yeah.

• 8:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  -corroborate a lot of those details, but just his motivations, his internal thought process.

• 8:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. I agree.

• 8:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where he tries to make himself kind of seem like, I panicked. I wanted to leave. It's like, hmm, did you, did you?

• 8:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I know, the, the nuance of it, the detail of it, those things where you don't, like you said, have the forensic detail to back up what he's saying, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. Because you don't know his reason for not telling you the truth about something like his motive for lying about this cap. It might make no sense to us, but in his brain, which is clearly not a normal brain, he's found a way that- He felt like this was warranted.

• 9:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Derrick Levasseur?

  But it also could be true, right? It also could be true.

• 9:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Could be true, yeah.

• 9:07Derrick Levasseur?

  He's sitting there, he's going over his whole checklist, not realizing like, oh my God, my mask is still on the top of my head.

• 9:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think it's true.

• 9:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I, I could actually see it being true. And I'll say this, he seems like someone who wants to have this prestige about him, you know, like he's creating this quote unquote legacy. And this makes him look dumb and, and, and not prepared and amateur. So for him to admit this, I feel like it's not a good thing and it doesn't make him look better at what he does. So I could see it being true for his first one to kind of show like, this is how unprepared I was. This is how green I was at this point.

• 9:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I also think he tries to portray himself as somebody who had no control over what he was doing.

• 9:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Ah, yeah.

• 9:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I'm not a bad guy. I'm not an evil demon put here on earth. I just, I was born this way and I, I've been fighting this compulsion for my whole life. And, you know, it just overcame me and obviously, look, I, you know, I, I was trying so hard to fight the compulsion that I, I forgot to put my ski mask down. Like I tried to save these people, you know, the, the, the white hat tried, but it got overcome by the black hat. It's like, he puts out these two sides of him as if they're constantly in conflict, but in reality, I don't think there was much in him that wanted to be good. I think he just wanted to appear to be good so he wouldn't get caught or found out. But I don't think there was like an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. And he's like split and fractured, the way he tries to make it seem. I think he's just evil to the core.

• 10:35Derrick Levasseur?

  What do I always say? Try to rationalize the irrational.

• 10:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  We try to do that because we would never, but some people are just really bad. So yeah, Raiders over here, he's all panicked inside, apparently. The dog's barking, it's stressing him out. He forgot to pull his ski mask down, just another detail out of his control. And he's, according to him, a few times after entering the Otero house, thinking, I should just leave, I should just leave. But instead of walking away, he decided to move forward. The black hat was urging him to kill. So he tied the family members up while wearing rubber dishwashing gloves. But when they started complaining that the ropes were too tight, he loosened them slightly. He said he felt sorry for Joseph, who was still recovering from cracked ribs from a recent car accident.

• 11:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Raider claims he even put a pillow under his head and a coat beneath him for comfort. Once again, I don't believe this. I don't believe at any of the times where Raider. Tells his stories where he's some, once again, fractured person who's just trying to do the right thing, but this other part of him is forcing him to be bad. I, I just don't believe it. You knew you were going to kill them. What do you care if Joseph's uncomfortable by some tight ropes? In fact, according to you, you got so turned on when your mom's ring was caught in the, the coil of the sofa, that you were just standing there watching her instead of getting help because you were enjoying it so much. Don't tell me you didn't sit there and enjoy the fact that those ropes were too tight. And that this guy who was suffering from a rib injury was in pain. You would have gotten off on that. You wouldn't have been

• 12:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  like, oh, I'm so sorry, Joseph, my victim, whose house I broke into. Let me try to make your, um, your stay here more comfortable. I don't believe it.

• 12:14Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. I agree with that. And that's where he's trying to make himself, again, he's trying to rewrite the history, change the narrative. That's where I can see a motive for wanting to lie.

• 12:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely. And then Dennis Rader said he gagged each of them, using cloths he found around the house, pillowcases, socks, t-shirts, things like that. Rader then took Julie and Joseph into their bedroom first. He strangled Joseph, but it was harder than he expected. He's, he claimed. Yeah. Once again, you're gonna untie these guys' ropes and give him a pillow and then bring him in his room and strangle him. And yeah, Dennis Rader said he didn't realize how long it would take to strangle someone and Joseph obviously also fought back. Once Joseph stopped moving, Rader turned to Joseph's wife Julie and strangled her until she stopped moving as well. Then he went to the kids, Joey and

• 13:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Josephine. He strangled both children until they appeared unconscious, but they, along with their parents, they began regaining consciousness. Rader then grabbed the garbage bags he'd brought with him. He placed one over Julie's head and secured it with the rope tied in a clove hitch knot around her neck. He did the same to Joseph, using a belt he found in the room. Next, he took a t-shirt and another bag and moved little Joey to a bed in the middle bedroom. He placed the shirt and bag over his head and tied it closed. Joey struggled, rolled off the bed, then stopped moving.

• 13:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Raider next turned his attention to Josephine, who was still alive, but barely. He decided he wanted to hang her, so he searched for a place, eventually setting on a sewer pipe in the basement. He went back to Josephine, picked her up, and took her to the basement. He then hanged her while doing unspeakable things to her.

• 14:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And that's, that's where we're leaving out some of the details. They're just not needed.

• 14:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what's important to understand here is, once again, I don't believe that he just tried to strangle this whole family and, and that would be it. And then they, he was like, oh, it was harder than I thought. And then they regained, they all regained consciousness and then I had to continue torturing them more. I think he intentionally strangled them enough where they wouldn't be dead so that when they woke up, he could continue torturing them. I don't think, why would you just go in there, strangle every single one? I mean, this is your first time. You've had all these fantasies since you're four years old and this is all you do? No. He, once again, tries to make it sound like he, he attempted to make it quick and, you know, he just strangled all of them, but then they all regained consciousness. So he had to continue torturing them, right?

• 14:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Especially little Josephine, the things that happened to her. Understand this. He sat there and watched her. He did things to himself while he watched her and she was still conscious as she was hanging and dying. So the last thing that, that this little girl would have seen was this horrible man in front of her, doing what he was doing to himself, getting so much pleasure out of what he was doing to her. That would have been her last moments before she died.

• 15:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's horrendous.

• 15:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolute scumbag. This lowest of the low, like should not still be alive.

• 15:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's why I'm saying, like, are we to believe that there's, you know, he's trying to make these people comfortable and he cares about? No.

• 15:38Derrick Levasseur?

  But here, here, here's my thing. I mean, I'm sure there's, there's DNA evidence to back up what happened in the basement.

• 15:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:45Derrick Levasseur?

  But it also seems like he's admitted to this. So why would he admit to this but not admit to, or lie, I should say, about the ski mask?

• 15:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'll tell you why.

• 15:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Please.

• 15:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because he wants the best of both worlds. He wants everyone to know what a sick [BLEEP] he is, excuse my language. He wants everyone to know how good he was at what he did. But he also doesn't want you to think that he's this terrible, horrible person. He wants you to think that he's just got, once again, this devil on one shoulder and an angel on the next, and they're battling. He's not totally bad. He's got some good in him. He's just like anyone else. He just had this strong compulsion to do this, and he's mentally ill, and this, this, and that. He wants the best of both worlds. He wants the credit for what he did. He wants the credit for being a monster, but he doesn't want the general public or the police to really grasp the fact of how monstrous he really is. He wants them to look at him as a human still, which he's not, yeah.

• 16:36Derrick Levasseur?

  He's not. He's not. He is the lowest of the low. Yeah, no, he's not. He is a piece of [BLEEP]. And that's really a simple way of putting it, but that's, that's the truth. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 16:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  When Raider was done playing out his sick and depraved fantasies, he went through the house to collect anything he had brought with him. He also stole Joseph's watch, a small radio, and the keys to their car. Before leaving, he turned up the thermostat, hoping to confuse the estimated time of death, a detail, he said, he had read in a book. So you remembered to do that, and you read it in a book, but you forgot to pull your ski mask down? Come on, come on, Raider. Then he left the house, locking the door behind him. He walked to the Otero's car in the garage, backed it out while keeping his face concealed, and drove to a nearby Dylan's. There, he wiped the door before walking back toward his car, throwing the Otero's keys into a drain on the way.

• 17:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  But when he reached his car, Dennis Rader realized his buck knife was missing, and he had no idea where he'd left it. So he had to return to the Otero home in his own car. He even parked his car in their garage. He checked the backyard, and he quickly found the knife by the telephone line he had cut. I wonder what he would have done if he realized he'd left it in the house because he threw their keys into a drain. So if he realized he'd left it in the house, would he have then broken into the house?

• 18:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he pulled the Kohlberger.

• 18:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  To get the knife, yeah.

• 18:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegedly pulled the Kohlberger with the sheath.

• 18:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he found the knife by the telephone line. He picked it up, he rushed back to his car, and then he drove home. Rader later told Dr. Katherine Ramsland that he had a throbbing headache. His brain felt like it was on fire and his head was in a vise. Aw, poor, poor BTK. You have a headache? You have a headache, BTK? Do you want some children's Tylenol? I hate him. And he's complaining, right? He's like, oh my goodness, like, this was so hard on me, what I did. I had a headache all night. Dennis Rader said he hadn't read about that sensation in any of the true crime books he studied, and he became consumed with worry about whether he had missed anything that might lead police

• 18:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  to him. After he got home, Rader went into the woods to burn his pre-crime notes, sketches, and remnants of the rope he'd brought with him to the scene. It was difficult for him to do this, right? He wanted to keep these things. He's got hidey holes here, hidey holes there. He probably wanted to put those notes and that rope that was at the scene with him in those hidey holes. But he didn't, he burned everything because he felt it was necessary to avoid getting caught. Now, we'll find, he doesn't always act so carefully. Rader finished all of this before his wife Paula came home and he greeted her as if nothing had happened. Inside, though, internally, he remained anxious about the possibility

• 19:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  of being caught. At the same time, he couldn't wait to read articles about the Otero family murders, and he was especially interested to see what would be written about him. He also wanted the chance to reminisce, so when he found a private moment, he recorded what he had done in a journal, using a coded system he came up with. He even began to consider a moniker for himself. And that's when he came up with BTK, which stands for Bind, Torture, Kill. Yeah, you're never gonna make me feel that this guy had any, like...

• 20:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Pangs of, oh, I shouldn't have done that, or even worry that he was gonna get caught. Because after he burns all his stuff, he's like, you know what? I actually do want a memory of this. Like, I don't want to forget this. So I'm gonna create a code in which I can write down these horrendous things and keep them. And if the police get them, they're not gonna know what this code means. And actually, I'm super interested in media coverage about myself. And I'm planning to do this again. So hopefully, one day, they'll call me BTK, and my name will be known in the histories of true crime. Yeah, he's gross. So at the same time that Rader had been disposing of evidence, the Otero's three older children were walking home from school. And this is really upsetting to hear, because remember,

• 20:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Julie and Joseph had three other children. And these are the people who are going to discover what happened to their family. Danny and Carmen walked together while Charlie, the oldest, followed a short time later. When Danny and Carmen arrived home around 3:30, they immediately noticed the family car was missing. They also saw the family dog in the backyard, which was unusual. The back door wouldn't open, so they went through the front. And when they got inside, they saw their mother's purse on the floor with the contents scattered across the dining room. There was no sign of their parents or their younger siblings, Josephine and Joey. Danny and Carmen walked into their parents' bedroom and found their father on the floor and their mother on the bed. Both were tied up. The siblings jumped into action and tried to revive their parents.

• 21:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Carmen removed the gag from her mother's mouth and cut the rope from around her neck using a pair of nail clippers. Danny removed a brown belt around his father's neck, then went to the kitchen for a knife to cut the ropes around his father's hands. But as he cut the ropes, he noticed that his father's chest was stiff. Obviously, Dennis Rader's victims, the Otero's, had been there for hours at this point. And it's so sad to think of these kids not only finding their parents like this, and their little sister like this, and their little brother like this, but... Attempting to save them, which means they'd have to get up close and personal and understand and see what happened to them. So Danny and Carmen then ran to the phone to call for help, but of course, as we know, the line was dead.

• 22:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dennis Rader had caught it. Danny went outside to get help from a neighbor as Charlie arrived home. The three children waited outside for the police, and when officers responded, they instructed the siblings to remain outside while they entered the home. Inside the southwest bedroom, officers found Julie and Joseph and pronounced them dead at the scene. Officers asked the children about their day to establish a timeline, and all three of the older children said their mother had woken them up around 7:30 that morning, that they had left for school with their father at approximately 7:50. As they were leaving, Charlie started to close the garage door, but his father told him to leave it open because he would be returning home after dropping them off. He then took them to school, and that was the last time they saw their parents alive.

• 23:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  The siblings told the officers that they were worried about their younger brother and sister, but they didn't know where they were. Officers continued searching the house and soon found both children. Joey was in the center bedroom, still bound on the floor. Josephine was in the basement utility room, hanging from a pipe.

• 23:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's the unfortunate thing about all of these cases, not just with BTK, but there's this wake that's left behind, and it affects, obviously, the victims, but also their family members. And they have to live with what they saw and what they experienced every day. I think about some of the autopsies that I've sat in on, or some of the murder cases where I've responded to the crime scene, and it's horrific, and it stays with you forever. I can't imagine if that person that I had to witness was someone that I cared about that deeply, and how that would affect me.

• 23:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, in general, to see something like that as a kid, even if it's a stranger, would be lifelong trauma.

• 24:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and they've done some interviews. These children who are now adults have done some interviews and talked about it and the effect it's had on them. It's incredible that they're even able to talk about it. Now, I think part of it is because the person responsible has been captured. That gives them a little bit of, I don't even want to use the phrase or the term closure, but it gives them some resolution. They know that the person responsible is behind bars. But just to go back, not to jump around too much, but we talk about X Factor, we talk about Black Hat, and you had mentioned how he tries to create this illusion that it's two different people, right? He's not a bad guy. This Black Hat is. But then you talked about how he was at home excited about seeing articles written

• 24:43Derrick Levasseur?

  about him or news stories being spoken about him and wanting to come up with a moniker. That's him. That's not Black Hat. At that point, that's him in the aftermath, not saying, "Oh, my God, what did I do?" Exactly the opposite. "Oh, my God, I want to see what I did, and I want to hear everybody talk about it." That's why if he is trying to create this illusion that he's, you know, Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, it's going to fall on deaf ears because this right here, this gratification you're getting from the aftermath, that is you. That is Dennis Rader. That is the person that we all believe you are, which is when you enter these homes or when you did these things to these victims, you don't change personalities. You're the same person. You're just trying to come up with excuses and nobody's buying it.

• 25:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  The illusion of empathy. A lot of people like this who are, I believe, sociopaths and don't feel actual empathy. They try to act like they do feel and have empathy, but it's in a very shallow way, right? Like, "Oh, I gave him a pillow for his head and I loosened his ropes and, you know, I tried to make him more comfortable." In a person who doesn't actually feel natural empathy, they're going to think that that is what empathy is just by viewing normal humans who commit acts of empathy like this to make somebody feel more comfortable, to help someone. But he cannot, he can't fake the internal empathy. He can fake the external actions of empathy, but he can't fake the internal

• 26:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  feeling of empathy. So he's never really, and even after what he did to the Otero family, he didn't go home and say like, "Oh, the white hat popped up and was like, 'What did you do, Dennis? And I felt terrible and I realized it was that devil on my shoulder that had done it. Now I feel horrible about it.'" He was worried about getting caught. He wasn't sad about what he had done. He can't pretend to be empathetic internally, so he can't fake that internal empathy. He can only fake the external trappings of it. And he's always blamed this, this force inside of him. It was in 2005, shortly after his confession and his plea, that Rader delivered what was described as his first

• 26:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  public apology for his crimes. And he doesn't say like, "Oh, I'm sorry I did this," really. He says, "I'm sorry the demon inside of me did it." He blamed a demon inside of him for what he did. He said, "I have a lot of remorse. I'm very sorry for them. It's something I wouldn't want to happen to my family." So, once again, you're trying to pretend you have empathy. You're saying the things you think someone with empathy would have, but because there's no actual feelings there, it just doesn't come off as sincere and you're not saying or doing the right things. So, there's no internal empathy. There's just the fake illusion of external empathy, a pillow, and loosening the ropes. He never felt bad. He didn't describe going home after and feeling

• 27:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  bad. He was upset. He had to burn his precious trophies. That's not somebody who, all of a sudden, your angel comes back and is like, "What'd you do, Dennis? How could you have done that?" And he's like, "Oh, I'm horrible." No, no. And in fact, as we know, it just made him want to do it more. The fact that he got away with it made him want to do it more.

• 27:50Derrick Levasseur?

  And that goes back to what we were saying about Kohlberger, right? Like, if he had gotten away with it, I think he would have been watching the news, reading articles, scanning the internet, and sometime down the road, he would have done it again. He would have done it again, if given the opportunity.

• 28:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just like BTK, in the aftermath of what he did at the University of Idaho, Brian Kohlberger's on the internet, searching up news reports, so he could see what was being said about not only his handiwork, but about him, the killer. The killer on the loose that everybody was terrified of. Yeah. These are not people that feel empathy in a natural way. They try to pretend they do, but they can't. Not to, you know, actually anybody that knows the difference. So, pretty bad. And when you talked about the Otero children and how, you know, they have... Obviously, I don't believe the two younger ones did, but I think Charlie,

• 28:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  the oldest one, has spoken about what happened to his parents and and his siblings. He was 15 years old in 1974 when he discovered the crime scene. I believe he said, I looked at my parents and my heart just got ripped out of my chest. My life changed instantly. And he said that five decades later, because there was just an article in October of 2025, where Charlie is quoted as saying, quote, "Five decades later, the trauma continues to weigh heavily." All right, they, he says that he and his siblings can't even really discuss the murders, even now, 50 years later. They have never really been able to even talk to each other about it.

• 29:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they don't have a ton of support there, even from each other, the only ones who would understand how they were feeling. It's just horrendous.

• 29:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I remember seeing the documentary on Netflix with Charlie Otero. They followed him and he talked a lot about it and horrific. I mean, the fact that they're able to even say anything, not all the details, but say anything at all, it says a lot. And if you haven't seen that Netflix doc that follows Charlie, you should definitely go check it out. It's impactful. It definitely gives you a different perspective on it all. We can tell you about it, but he lived it firsthand. And so if you haven't watched that yet, you should definitely check it out.

• 30:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I think that's the documentary, I Survived BTK, that came out in 2012, in case anybody's wondering.

• 30:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, survive, yeah, I think it survived BTK, but close enough, yeah.

• 30:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so that is a really, it's a hard documentary to watch. But if you're interested in this case and you want to know more, I highly suggest that you check it out. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 30:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're back. So what happened at the Otero home was now a quadruple homicide involving two young children. And detectives knew, obviously, a deeply disturbed person was responsible and they needed to find him immediately. Law enforcement set up a command post at an old school across the street from the Otero home, and 10 teams of detectives were assigned to investigate the murders and locate the missing family car. That evening, a detective found the car in the Dylan's parking lot about half a mile away from the home. And I've always wondered why Dennis Rader didn't bring the car further away from the house, but I mean, he probably assumed the kids were going to come home from school. And find the scene and he didn't have to go that far.

• 31:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And additionally, he didn't want to go that far because he would have to find some way back to his car, which would most likely be walking. So when they found the car, they saw that the keys were gone. And while fingerprints were recovered, they didn't lead to a suspect. Detectives canvassed the area and learned the vehicle had been seen backing out of the Otero driveway around 10:30 that morning. That narrowed the timeline to be between roughly 8 and 10:30 a.m., but investigators still had no idea who could have done this. As news of the Otero family murder spread, Rader followed every update closely. He cut out newspaper articles and stored them in a hidey hole in the shed. Outwardly, he went about his life as usual. He spent time with Paula, he volunteered at church, and he started his classes at Wichita State University,

• 31:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  where he was studying administration of justice. Ironically enough. Once again, though, internally, he said he was nervous. He worried constantly that police would find a clue that led to him, and that fear stayed with him for weeks. But by March, when no one had come knocking, he started to feel safe again. And with that sense of safety came back the dark urge. He wanted to feel the rush of killing again, so he began looking for a new victim. One afternoon, after class, Rader spotted a young woman arriving at her home near campus. He described her as his, quote, "fantasy profile, a coed, dishwater blonde, small," end quote. Rader didn't learn her name until later,

• 32:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  but she was 21-year-old Catherine Bright, known as Kathy to her friends and family. She had grown up in Kansas with two brothers and a sister. And after high school, she went to work at Coleman, the same company where Julie Otero had been employed and where, once again, BTK himself had once worked. So after choosing Kathy as a possible target, Rader began peeping through her windows to learn her habits. He discovered that she lived alone and she didn't have a dog. Her address also contained the number 3, which he viewed as a sign. Convinced that Kathy was the right choice, he started watching her house more closely. And he called his new plan, with Kathy being the victim, Project Lights Out.

• 33:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I want to talk about really quick the fact that Dennis Rader said Kathy's address had the number 3 in it. And he viewed this as a sign. This is something that he kind of alludes to a few times throughout his killing spree, that he saw certain things and would see it as a sign. And it really does, it says something. It reflects a psychological phenomenon often seen in organized, obsessive, or narcissistic offenders. The construction of personal meaning and symbolic control around their crime. Like, this magical thinking of, oh, Kathy's address had a three in it, and that's a sign that she's the right victim.

• 33:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is like magical thinking, a belief that random coincidences or ordinary numbers carry special, supernatural, or predestined meaning. Not for everyone, but for Dennis Rader personally and singularly. Now, it doesn't mean he was psychotic or hallucinating. It does show, though, that Dennis Rader and men like him who commit these kinds of crimes and use signs as a reason for why they choose their victims. It shows that he lived in a self-created symbolic world where he read the universe as communicating directly with him. So, in psychology, this is usually called ideas of reference, like seeing patterns,

• 34:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  messages, or signs, where actually none objectively exists. She just happened to have a three in her address. Now, for someone like Rader, though, it's going to strengthen the illusion that his crimes are ordained, fated, or part of a bigger plan. So, it's not insanity in the legal sense, because he was fully aware of the difference between right and wrong, but it is like an ego-driven form of delusional meaning-making. He wanted to believe he wasn't just killing at random. He was chosen or guided by signs to his victims. And I think that's very interesting, because... His whole identity as BTK was built around something very similar. Ritual, control, binding, torturing, killing.

• 35:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  And also controlling the narrative around those acts, which I believe he continued to do even after he got caught. With his little details of like, I forgot to put my mask down and I tried to make Joseph Otero as comfortable as possible. When he assigns meaning to something as trivial as a house number, it gives him a sense of power over both fate and his victims. He's essentially rewriting reality. Instead of being just a bad man who chose a random address or who found a girl that he liked, who fit his profile. He's the instrument of some larger, darker, almost cosmic design. And yeah, it also has this effect of trying to absolve him from full accountability. Right? The sign led me. It was the demon inside of me.

• 36:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  And in his mind at least, it elevates him to like a godlike or mythic role in his own story. Like, I was meant to find her. She was my perfect profile and then I let her, she led me to a house and there's a three in her address and that's when I knew. It's just really fantastical. Like, it's a way of just completely separating yourself from the crime, the demon, you know?

• 36:30Derrick Levasseur?

  This is an interesting discussion and I think it applies to a lot of cases, not just this one, especially when we're talking about serial killers. And to me, I've always believed that most of the time, and I think I've said this a few episodes ago, but there are some people that are just pure evil. But I also think that there, and I'm not making excuses at all, because it doesn't matter if this is true or not. But there are some killers out there who do have mental health issues, right? Just like a schizophrenic, there's things they can't control. So my, I guess I pose this question to you and I pose this question to our audience. Is it possible with BTK and others, that some of the things they're describing as far as the signs and everything else and the reason they did it?

• 37:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And the demon and the, you know, the white hat, black hat, could it be? A mental health disorder that's causing them to commit these acts doesn't justify them. There are many people who have mental health issues who don't go on to kill people. But I just posed the question, could it be a certain chemical imbalance in the brain? That causes them to see or or hear or perceive something a certain way because of those imbalances?

• 37:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I'm going to speak about Dennis Rader specifically.

• 37:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, let's go there because you can't do speak in generality when everyone's different. So I like that. I'm with that. Yeah.

• 37:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, no, I don't because like you just said, and you, I think you answered your own question. A ton of people, hundreds of thousands of people have mental health issues or chemical imbalances. The majority of them, the vast majority of them, 99.9999% do not go on to do anything like this. So, no, I don't think that there that has anything to do with it. It because and stuff like this. Okay, so for instance, let's say I had a friend, and this is a true story, but I'm trying to change the details. So if the person happens to be hearing, they won't know I'm talking about them. Let's say I had a friend who was married. And then this friend started a sort of affair with someone else.

• 38:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he was very conflicted, like, what am I doing? Who's the right person to be with? And then this friend was talking to his girlfriend, not his wife. And she said, oh, I used to love the Ren and Stimpy cartoon when I was a kid. It was my favorite cartoon. I watched it every, every night I watched it and I had popcorn. And then my friend would be like, oh, my God, I too loved Ren and Stimpy when I was a kid. And I would watch it every night with popcorn. This is a sign that we were meant to be, and I was meant to be with her. It's not actually a sign, but because they already know what they want to do, they're trying to give a justification outside of their own selfish desire to do something, to make it seem more like understandable, like, oh, I mean, I guess, yeah, you did have that shared thing

• 39:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  that the universe showed brought you together. No, it's just you trying to justify your bad acts and making it seem like there's another force at hand outside of your own will and outside of your own ability to choose the difference between right and wrong. So I don't believe it's any mental health thing. I think it's just a selfish, egotistical cop out thing.

• 39:40Derrick Levasseur?

  When you're talking about BTK specifically.

• 39:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because he's like. Oh, there was a number three in her house. I knew. No, you saw her walking. She was exactly what you wanted. You were already looking for another victim. Instead of just saying, I saw her walking and I knew I was gonna kill her by the time I started stalking her. He's like, but there was a sign that showed she was meant to be my next victim. So how can I ignore the universe? How can I ignore the universe when, when this Ren and Stimpy connection is telling me I should be with this woman and not the woman I'm married to. You know what I mean?

• 40:09Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm with you and I, and I like that. We did do that. Specific, but I do think in general that in some instances, like for example, just a case I can think of off the top of my head that we covered. Taylor should business.

• 40:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, she definitely was mentally ill. Yeah.

• 40:22Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a mental illness there. Again, it doesn't justify it. Doesn't explain it away. It doesn't make it okay. I just think that there are some people out there who may commit one or more murders. Who have a mental health disorder because clearly the idea, the notion of killing another person, that in and of itself is wrong. And anybody who thinks that's right. Has something wrong with them. I also wanted to say one more thing, and I don't know how, uh, how accurate. This statistic is, but according to the Treatment Advocacy Center, go check it out at tac.org. 10% of homicides are caused by individuals who have either schizophrenia. Or a bipolar disorder, some form of mental health disorder. In the United States.

• 41:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Those are people who happen to be terrible people. That also happen to have a, a mental health disorder.

• 41:11Derrick Levasseur?

  I think that, yeah, I think there's, I think that they could be terrible people that, that are. Triggered by their disorders as well, right?

• 41:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're selfish. They don't care. They don't, do they just, they don't have empathy. Now look at your Taylor should business example. 100% that woman's out of her mind.

• 41:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Out of her mind. Yeah. And would have killed other people if given the opportunity.

• 41:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she wasn't given the opportunity. Why? Because she's out of her mind.

• 41:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she couldn't cover it up.

• 41:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cover it up. She left that place a mess with her DNA all over. Then she went home. The police came to get her. She's still covered in blood. And she's like, what are you here for? While she's covered in blood. That shows a mental health. It's like you have no idea what you're doing. You have no idea what you're even doing. How are you going to cover it up? You're not going to find somebody like Taylor Shabes, who systematically, over the course of several years, decades, commits multiple murders and continues to get away with it because she's out of her mind. Whereas Dennis Rader was not. He was very organized and he knew exactly what he was doing and how to get away with it.

• 42:05Derrick Levasseur?

  I think that's a good distinction. When we talk about this, when we try to answer this question, you have to categorize the people you're talking about. So for example, the Taylor Shabes businesses who are erratic, who are impulsive, who are not methodical.

• 42:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not thinking clearly.

• 42:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Right? Who just do it and just act out. They're in one category. And then the people like a Dennis Rader, or a Rex Schurman, or Brian Koberger, they're a different category. So I guess you know how Stephanie feels about it. How does everybody listening or watching this feel about it? Do you think that two things can be true, where these people can be methodical and organized and strategic, and yet still have some underlying disorder that hasn't been diagnosed? Or is it more in line with someone who is intelligent, put together, has an understanding of what they're doing, and is now in hindsight?

• 42:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Has no empathy.

• 42:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Has no empathy, using these, these signs, or whatever it might be, whatever case specific for them, as an excuse, as a way to separate themselves from the crime itself?

• 43:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that the huge difference here is that someone like Taylor Shabes would have a mental health issue. Someone like Dennis Rader would have a personality disorder. And what did our good friend Chris Mohandi tell us about the difference between personality disorders and mental health issues? You can address a mental health issue. You can medicate it and treat it. You can't do anything about a personality disorder. You can't fix it. You can't treat it. There's no medication.

• 43:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Dr. Mohandi, who's that? I don't like that guy.

• 43:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I love him. He's so smart.

• 43:38Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm being sarcastic, obviously. I think he's great.

• 43:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I would say that's the distinction there. Like, Dennis Rader probably has a personality disorder, which, there's nothing, there's nothing you can do about that. And he's going to lack a huge amount of empathy. Like, he's going to have none. No empathy. So. So yeah, now, now Dennis Rader is on to his next victim, Catherine Bright. And on April 4th, he decided to act. He packed a change of clothes and a hit kit that included his Colt Woodsman 22 and a 357 Magnum stored in a shoulder holster, extra ammunition, two knives, two ski masks, and a few college books to make himself appear as a harmless college student. So now he's got two guns, extra ammunition,

• 44:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  two knives, and two ski masks, just in case he forgets to put the first one on. He was walking, he was walking into a house earlier at the Otero's where he knew that, at least he knew more than one person was going to be there, and he didn't bring that much. But now he's going into the home of a college student, a girl who's small and lives alone, and he's, I would say that's overkill. He's a little too armed, but why? Why is that the case? Well, did he want to be prepared? Or did he just want options as to what he did to this person?

• 44:57Derrick Levasseur?

  And also, by the way, you're talking about this new case. First case with the Otero's happened, what, in January?

• 45:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 45:05Derrick Levasseur?

  And now this one's in April?

• 45:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not that long.

• 45:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Four months?

• 45:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a small window.

• 45:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, by March, he was like, okay, the police don't know, they're not coming. I'm good.

• 45:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 45:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the whole town's on high alert.

• 45:20Derrick Levasseur?

  It does, I think this is going to be a question we pose in a later part, but when you have someone who's, and I'm looking forward to seeing when the dates for the other murders, because try to develop a pattern of how often, the frequency, right? And then we had mentioned in part one about there was this huge window where nothing happened. The question is, did nothing really happen? Or were we just not able to tie any murders to BTK?

• 45:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that there was an extended, because we're talking a long time.

• 45:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, a long time.

• 45:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think there probably was an extended period of time where he felt like the heat was too much on him and he was, but I think that you could also be right, where there were maybe a few during that time.

• 45:59Derrick Levasseur?

  That he hasn't, he hasn't owned yet.

• 46:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  That he hasn't owned up to, yeah.

• 46:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Because there are other drawings out there, and there's, there's a lot of people where they put these drawings out there, and they're like, listen, if you know who this person is, we don't believe we've identified this person yet.

• 46:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 46:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's my belief, based on my limited information about BTK, is that there are more victims that we haven't tied to him yet.

• 46:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's the general belief, and he would tell you, oh, no, those are just plans I didn't carry out. But once again, I don't believe anything you say, dude.

• 46:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I think there's more and I think his daughter Carrie has also been trying to help law enforcement and identifying those people. So they also believe there's more victims.

• 46:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, unlike before at the Otero's, BTK didn't bring a rope to Kathy's as he was planning to use whatever he could find inside the house instead. So that morning, he attended his college classes as usual, but he couldn't focus. He was just too excited about what he was gonna do. And then afterward, he drove to the Kenmart shopping center and changed his clothes in the car. He wore his Air Force parka, the same one he'd worn during the Otero murders because he said it allowed him to conceal his weapons. He also put on a pair of golf gloves. From there, he drove to an area just south of the WSU campus, parked and walked to Kathy's home, arriving around noon. When he got there, though, she wasn't home. So he broke in and

• 47:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  he waited. I want to ask you a question because I don't golf. I don't golf. I know you probably do.

• 47:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Once in a while. I'm not very good.

• 47:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Aren't golf gloves fingerless?

• 47:26Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 47:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're not? Okay.

• 47:28Derrick Levasseur?

  No, golf gloves are like a regular glove. They're thin. They're usually like a leather material. It just gives you a little bit more grip, but no, they have fingers on them.

• 47:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  What gloves am I thinking of that are fingerless? Cause?

• 47:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Weightlifting gloves. Usually at the weight lift, at the gym, they, they have those fingerless gloves because it's more about just the, the, the calluses or the pain that can be caused on your, on your fingers and your palm of your hand by lifting all the, the barbells that have like the knurled texture on them.

• 47:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So I looked it up. Traditional golf gloves do cover all fingers, but they do have, they do have fingerless styles for increased dexterity, breathability.

• 48:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I could tell you that in the limited amount of golf I played, I probably played 50 to 100 rounds, that which isn't a lot, by the way. It's, it's a decent amount, not a lot.

• 48:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's about 50 to 100 more than I played.

• 48:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I've never seen a person wearing fingerless gloves and I can tell you on record right here that if we ever did, my buddies and I would without a doubt make fun of them for the rest of the day.

• 48:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like I saw someone wearing a pair of fingerless golf gloves in the new Happy Gellmar, but.

• 48:30Derrick Levasseur?

  How are those phalanges doing?

• 48:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Are those your fingers? Right? That's your fingers, right?

• 48:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Yeah, would it? Yeah, phalanges.

• 48:37Derrick Levasseur?

  We'd be all over them.

• 48:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I learned that from

• 48:39Derrick Levasseur?

  We'd be all over them, for sure.

• 48:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I learned that from the show Bones, by the way, because she would always say phalanges. But yeah, so I feel like I did.

• 48:45Derrick Levasseur?

  I've never seen it. I don't think I ever will, but if I do, I will gladly take a picture for you and we'll let you guys know.

• 48:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it would be somebody, if somebody was wearing those kinds of gloves, like everyone else would make fun of them.

• 48:55Derrick Levasseur?

  They, they haven't played any rounds of golf.

• 48:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you're like, you're just trying to look like a golfer. Yeah.

• 49:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Good thing you and I didn't play at like a group tournament or something for like a nonprofit because you'd show up with fingerless gloves and I'd be like, I don't know her.

• 49:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, first of all, no, I wouldn't. Second of all, no, I wouldn't be playing. I would just be sitting in the golf cart, watching you and cheering you on with a

• 49:12Derrick Levasseur?

  With fingerless gloves on.

• 49:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  With a drink. Yeah, fingerless gloves, maybe because I'm not playing, but

• 49:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Like, why is she wearing fingerless gloves? I'd be like, oh, listen, man, she's a little off.

• 49:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 49:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Just let her have fun with her fingerless gloves.

• 49:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  She saw it in Happy Gilmore once.

• 49:24Derrick Levasseur?

  And she's like sitting there playing with her fingerless gloves.

• 49:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm like, hey, guys, you want me to step in here? My, my hands are feeling very weightless.

• 49:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're fresh and ready to go. All right.

• 49:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope, won't, won't claim you.

• 49:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 49:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so Dennis Rader inside Kathy's house. She's not home yet. He's waiting in there for her. Around 12:30, he heard a car door slam. But here's the thing, he heard two car doors slam instead of one, which immediately made him nervous. So he looked out the window and he saw Kathy returning with a man. He would later learn that the man was Kathy's brother Kevin, who was staying the night because of some snow. And at this point, Dennis Rader like, damn it, every time I try to plan, I stalk people for weeks. I see their routines. They do nothing different. But the first time I decide to actually act, there's always a wrench thrown in, right? A dog or more people being home than I expected. Kevin's here spending the night. Now, if Dennis Rader really believed in signs,

• 50:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  he would have seen that as a sign that he needs to stop, right? He needs to stop because the universe is telling him, you've planned very carefully, but we're going to throw a wrench into every one of your plans as a sign to tell you, you shouldn't be there. But if he really cared about signs and didn't just care about the signs that justified what he was doing, he would have seen that as a sign, but he didn't. So. When Kevin and Kathy came inside, Dennis Rader confronted them with his gun drawn. Once again, he did the same thing he had done with the Otero's. He was like, hey, I'm a wanted man in California. I need a car. That's all I want. And they were like, okay. He then went through the house gathering materials to restrain Kathy and her brother Kevin. Nylon stockings, clothing, and a scarf for a gag. He forced the siblings into a bedroom and instructed Kevin

• 51:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  to tie Kathy's hands before he tied Kevin up himself. Then he secured Kevin's feet to the bedpost to keep him from running. Rader moved Kathy into another room. He tied her to a chair and gagged her. He returned to Kevin, intending to kill him first, but he didn't want Kathy to hear this. He didn't want her to hear the gunshot, so he turned up the radio and began to strangle Kevin. But Kevin fought back, breaking free from the bonds and jumping up. So Rader pulled out a gun and shot Kevin in the head. Rader then went to the other room and found that Kathy's bindings weren't securely tied either, which was probably an attempt by her brother Kevin to allow her to get out. But unfortunately,

• 51:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  she didn't. But anyways, Kathy's not totally secured. She starts to fight Dennis. Kathy and Dennis, they fight back and forth until he got her tied back to the chair. Just then, he heard movement in the other room. He ran back to Kevin's room and found Kevin alive. Rader tried again to strangle him. Kevin fought back and managed to grab the .357 Magnum from Rader's shoulder holster and the two wrestled for control of it. Rader gained control and was able to shoot Kevin again. This time, the bullet hit Kevin in the head, and he immediately fell.

• 52:26Derrick Levasseur?

  So he got, he got shot in the head twice. That's, that's, I mean, that's impressive that he was able to still fight after all that. Maybe the first shot wasn't a direct hit, or it just missed any, it missed the part where it completely shut his brain down.

• 52:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kevin was actually only 19 years old. So keep in mind, this guy's a hero. He's young. He's 19 years old. He's a hero. He, Raider initially shot Kevin in the forehead. Kevin did survive this, okay? And it probably has a lot to do with the trajectory of the bullet.

• 52:54Derrick Levasseur?

  It's just miracle.

• 52:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But once again, did Raider shoot Kevin in the head to kill him? Or did he shoot him in the head knowing that it would just sort of take him down? So he wasn't a threat, but he could come back and continue torturing him later.

• 53:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe, but how could you even? Like if you told me right now, shoot someone in the head without killing them.

• 53:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  How do you keep trying to kill people? And then they just end up surviving, so you get to torture them more? I mean, you're, once again, the signs in the universe are telling you, you're not super good at this. Maybe find a new hobby. Kevin fell to the ground after the second shot to the head. And Raider later said that after shooting Kevin, he knew he'd completely lost control of the whole scene. Kathy was tied to a chair in the other room, but her gag had slipped, which is giving her more freedom to move. And when Raider approached Kathy, she fought back. Um, and his attempt to strangle her failed. So in a state of panic, he pulled out a buck knife and began stabbing her. This was never part of his plan and he was upset. Because now he has blood all over him and this is going to make it harder for him to escape unnoticed.

• 53:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Then Dennis Rader hears movement from the front of the house.

• 53:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow.

• 53:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was Kevin.

• 54:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow.

• 54:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kevin survived the second gunshot to the head and he pretended to be dead so that Raider would leave the room. And then when Raider was in the room with Kathy, Kevin got up and ran to the door. Okay, he leaves the house.

• 54:14Derrick Levasseur?

  How? How did he? That's incredible.

• 54:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  He leaves the house to go get help. All right? It's, it's, I mean, this guy is just so brave. And I really do think it was his desire to try and save his sister that kept him alive for that. Like some things just don't make scientific sense.

• 54:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Not to try to make this like an evidentiary thing, but with a 22 caliber long rifle round. And we've talked about this before, so if you guys are paying attention, you should know this. It's like a grain of rice. So if he had shot Kevin in the head with a 357 Magnum, I can guarantee you that after the second shot. Kevin would not have gotten up, not even after the first one, because to not be too descriptive here, it would have been an explosion inside of his head, but with a long rifle, like a 22, there's a lot of times where you can get shot and it doesn't really cause any injury to the person because it misses all vital organs because it basically it's just a grain of rice, a little bit thicker than a grain of rice, but it's not a big round is my point.

• 55:14Derrick Levasseur?

  So you, I could see a world where through the grace of God, luck and all of the above, you could get shot more than one time by a 22 caliber rifle at point blank range and still survive and still be able to walk away from it. That would make sense.

• 55:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kevin Bright is considered to be the only survivor of an attack by the BTK killer. I, I mean, he's, he has talked about it. He's talked about what happened. Um, I know he had to have a metal plate put in his head. The first time he got shot was in the forehead. Then when BTK Dennis Rader shot him the second time, I think it was in his face by his mouth and nose area.

• 55:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, okay. That makes sense.

• 55:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:54Derrick Levasseur?

  So you can get shot in the mouth and a lot of people can survive from those injuries.

• 55:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  But shot in the forehead.

• 56:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. It just must've missed. It must've missed anything that would have at least shut down his brain where he wouldn't be able to move and walk.

• 56:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he survived. He survived, you know, and it's, you know, he says he's forgiven BTK.

• 56:15Derrick Levasseur?

  What?

• 56:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. He said, in fact, he feels, he feels badly for him. Um, I mean, I, I think, yeah, I don't know. He says he deserves the death penalty, but.

• 56:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey, listen, I respect it. I take that back. You know, it's his choice.

• 56:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Derrick Levasseur?

  It's his choice. He's allowed to feel the way he wants to feel. I don't forgive him, but it's not my place to forgive him.

• 56:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  This was before Dennis Rader had confessed. So Kevin Bright actually said, you know, I pray for that person. I pray that he'll see he's lost and he needs a savior and that he needs to be right for God and be right for mankind to give himself up. He may not get caught here, but one day he'll be standing in front of the Lord for judgment. I'm not worried that he's not going to be caught. I have peace. I know where I'm going to go when I die.

• 56:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. So it sounds like Kevin's religious either before this or after it.

• 56:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  He believes in something. Yeah.

• 57:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 57:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know, man. I don't know if I could. Not only did you horribly murder my sister and am I going to have to live with that guilt that I did everything and survived two gunshot wounds to the face to try and save her and I still couldn't, but you shot me multiple times in the face? Like, stop.

• 57:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Horrible.

• 57:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  When Kevin got up and he ran to the door, Dennis Rader said at that moment, he felt it's over. It's completely over. He's going to get caught. He quickly gathered himself and left while Kathy was still moaning in pain. As he fled, he grabbed Kathy's driver's license and her car keys. He exited through a back door, cutting his pants and leg on a broken glass from when he'd first broken in. Rader tried to start Kathy's car using the key he had taken, but it didn't work. So he abandoned the attempt and ran back towards his own parked car near campus. He drove home before Paula returned, cleaned himself up, and sealed his bloodstained clothes in plastic bags. He hid the bags in his parents' garage and concealed the guns in several places while his parents were at work.

• 57:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, once again, if Dennis Rader's really listening to signs, you keep, like, you literally, your victim survived, ran out to get help. You couldn't start the car with Kathy's car keys. You got blood all over you. Now, nothing's going to plan. This would be a sign that...

• 58:14Derrick Levasseur?

  To stop.

• 58:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, to stop. But he doesn't care about signs. He just cares about the ones.

• 58:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Only when they support what he actually wants to do, yeah.

• 58:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So, as Rader worked to eliminate the evidence, officers were responding to a 911 call about Kevin running from the house. When they arrived, they saw Kathy on the floor near the back of the house just outside a bedroom. She had crawled toward the phone and was still clutching it when they found her. And miraculously, she was still alive. An officer asked what had happened, but she couldn't respond. And when asked if she was hurt, she lifted her shirt, revealing her abdomen. She had been stabbed 11 times. Kathy said she did not know her attacker, but was able to give her name. The officer noticed nylon stockings tied around her wrists and ankles, and a blue scarf and thin cord loosely wrapped around her neck. She told him she couldn't breathe and motioned for him to untie her legs.

• 59:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  He used his pocket knife to cut the stockings from around her ankles. Another officer arrived and helped care for Kathy. They tried to calm her, assuring her that an ambulance was on the way and she would be all right. But she wasn't all right. Her condition was quickly deteriorating. Her pupil stopped responding, and her breathing became shallow. Grabbing one officer's arm, Kathy cried, "I can't breathe. Help me." Paramedics arrived and rushed her to the hospital, but despite their efforts, Kathy Bright did not survive. Kevin was also transported to the hospital. After escaping the house, he ran into two men nearby and told them, "He's in there now, doing a number on my sister. Please help me." The men called police and rushed him to the hospital themselves.

• 59:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kevin had been shot twice in the head and doctors also removed a white cord from around his neck. Miraculously, he survived and gave police a full statement. He had gotten a good look at the man who attacked them and helped create a composite sketch. So apparently, now Dennis Rader brings two ski masks to his target's house and doesn't put either of them on. So what is the ski mask at this point?

• 1:00:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a running joke at this point.

• 1:00:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's just taking up space in your kill kit. So when Rader later saw the sketch in the newspaper, he thought it looked uncomfortably close to how he really appeared, which it did.

• 1:00:24Derrick Levasseur?

  We'll have it up on YouTube right now. You can look it up. Just type in Kevin Sketch BTK. It pops right up. You can see it here. And knowing what Dennis Rader looks like, for anybody who's listening on audio, it does look like him, knowing what we know. At the same time, I could see this looking like a lot of people at the time, right? So I understand that Dennis is thinking, "Oh, man, I know that I did it and this looks like me." But also-

• 1:00:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  It could look like anybody if you didn't know it was him.

• 1:00:54Derrick Levasseur?

  It could look like anybody. I don't look at the sketch and go, "Oh, yeah, definitely him." If you see him walking the streets, you're gonna go, "That's the guy in the sketch." This could be so many people. I would even say this image slightly almost looks like an Asian man, a little bit, to me.

• 1:01:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  It just looks like a guy wearing a neckcap, which could be a ski mask that he hadn't pulled over his face. And he's got a mustache. That's it.

• 1:01:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I guess I would want to know if he had facial hair at the time when he did this. I'm gonna guess no, because I have seen some other sketches that we'll show later in this episode, where he just has glasses, no facial hair.

• 1:01:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  He did have a mustache, yeah. Type in Dennis Rader 1974 picture, and it's the first one that pops up. And it actually does look so much like the sketch if you think about it.

• 1:01:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, we can have that up here, too. You can see he's got the, yeah, red, blue suit, red tie. And then so, put a little cap on him and it does look like him.

• 1:01:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  It does. The eyebrows, how the eyebrows kind of like arch up. You see that, like they come to a point in the middle?

• 1:01:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. I still think that sketch though, if we don't know who the killer is at that point. I'm feeling, as, as the killer, I'm not feeling good, but as a, as a detective, I'm thinking, man, we have a long way to go.

• 1:02:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he knew he was the killer. So he's looking at it. And at this point, if you're Dennis Rader, are you like, do I shave my mustache? What do I do?

• 1:02:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right.

• 1:02:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So at this point, Wichita Police were investigating two home invasion style attacks against families. Cause once again, this is what I always found very strange about Dennis Rader. He, he hunted in his own backyard and then he kind of stayed there. He didn't go outside of those limits. And so detectives briefly considered whether the same person could be responsible for both the Otero murders and the attack on the Brights. And you'd think that the natural assumption would be like, yeah, probably. How often do things like this happen? Home invasions where these people get tied up? And like killed. But ultimately the police decided the methods seemed too different. So you got two crazy people out here. Apparently doing this to people.

• 1:02:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Let's, let's not skate over that. I mean, in fairness to them, with only two, I can see that the MO is very different. Now they could put more into it, but you have one where the victims were strangled and they were hung and they were suffocated and there was some gratification as we discussed earlier with the, with the, one of the victims that evidence was left behind. We'll put it that way by the killer. Where in this case, it's more brutal. You got firearms involved. You have a stabbing. Not knowing that it's because it didn't go to, according to plan, but I love the fact that they at least investigated the two. We have the, we have the benefit of knowing the, the after, after the fact, but I can see how you would look at these two cases individually.

• 1:03:36Derrick Levasseur?

  And say, there's a high likelihood it's two different killers. I, I'm not going to fault them for that.

• 1:03:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  They happened within months of each other. Stuff like this never happened in Wichita before. All of a sudden it is. It's home invasions. All the victims in both cases were strangled at one point.

• 1:03:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Attempted, attempted strangulation. Yeah.

• 1:03:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And it's in Wichita and they're tied up. So I mean, come on.

• 1:03:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I'd keep it on the radar. I would be looking for more, but I'm not, you know me, I'm the first to call it out. I, I could see how with a. With the information they had and not having a, now if they had a sketch from the first one, right? If they had some type of identification from the first one, where there was a witness who saw BTK leaving or whatever, then it's a no brainer, right? But only being able to go off the modus operandi, I could see how you may look at this and say, yep, the victimology is different, the, the manner of death is different. Obviously, these are both horrific, but maybe two different killers.

• 1:04:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nothing is stolen in either case, which means it's not a home invasion with the purposes of robbery. This person broke into their house to kill these people. And yes, I guess I, as a police officer, I'd be like, oh, yeah, it's kind of different. Let me file this away and keep it like on the back. I wouldn't dismiss it and be like, way too different, guys. We got two psychopath serial killers who just break into people's houses to kill them for no other reason than to kill them and they don't steal anything.

• 1:04:53Derrick Levasseur?

  So I'm not going to dispute it because you're the storyteller. I have a feeling if we were behind closed doors, they didn't completely rule it out. I think they might have said, hey, this isn't a smoking gun, but I don't think they dismissed it. I mean, they looked into it and unfortunately, they didn't have a crystal ball. So they said, hey, we looked into it. Initially, you thought it could be good. We're not completely ruling it out, but just our initial thoughts is that they're not connected. But they're clearly, they, they put them on the radar. It's not like if they have to come back to it where if there's a third or fourth killing and now it has a combination of the first two, they're not going to go, hey, wait a second. Maybe Catherine's case is tied to it. So we gotta give them, gotta give credit where credit's due. We, we've had departments where

• 1:05:33Derrick Levasseur?

  two different killings and they don't even make the connection at all. Right? So I know we're asking for a lot here, but at least we got something.

• 1:05:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, meanwhile, Raider, of course, is paying close attention to every news development, every police development, collecting newspaper clippings and fantasizing about Kathy. He also burned the shoes, pants and gloves he'd used in the attack on Kathy and Kevin and moved the guns to a different hiding spot at his parents' home. I don't know why he's moving them to a different hiding spot. Nobody's found the hiding spot to begin with. Probably best if you just get rid of them, but whatever, he moved them. Probably because he just wanted to go and like relive it, honestly. He just wanted to go and touch his.

• 1:06:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Just another hidey hole.

• 1:06:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Take his stuff out of his hidey hole and stroke it before putting it back in a new hidey hole. But on that note, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 1:06:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  So for several months, Dennis Rader stayed quiet. He attended classes, he kept up appearances, but by summer, his urges returned. He continued practicing bondage in secret and going through his hidey hole items. He stalked potential victims and broke into homes again with plans to murder, though none of his attempts worked, thankfully. Then in the fall, Wichita Police announced that several men had confessed to killing the Otero family. The statements were false, of course, but detectives didn't know that yet. Rader read about the arrests in the newspaper, and do you know what he felt? He didn't feel relief. He was mad. He was furious that others were taking credit for what he had done. So what did this dumbass do?

• 1:07:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  He decided it was time to play what he called a cat and mouse game with police. A normal person who felt bad and didn't want to get caught and was like, I'm never going to do this again. Like, I swear God, if you just send me a sign that I'm not going to get caught. And then you see a sign that people confessed to your crime. You're going to be like relieved. Yep. Okay, I can, I can, you know, sleep at peace now. But he was mad. He was mad that someone was trying to take credit for his work. Disgusting. So Dennis Rader typed a letter on an old typewriter in his home office. And in the letter, he claimed that the people taking credit for the Otero murders were lying. He wrote, quote, "I did it by myself and with no one's help," end quote.

• 1:07:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  He then went on to describe the crime scene in detail, just to prove to the police that he'd been there. Rader finished the letter by writing about the monster inside him. Now, his writing is full of spelling and grammatical errors, sometimes on purpose to throw people off, so please bear with us as I read the rest of the letter verbatim. Quote, "I'm sorry this happened to the society. It hard to control myself. You probably call me psychotic with sexual perversion hangup."

• 1:08:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where this monster enter my brain, I will never know, but it's here to stay. How does one cure himself? If you ask for help, that you have killed four people, they will laugh or hit the panic button and call the cops. I can't stop it, so the monster goes on and hurt me as well as society. Society can be thankful that there are ways for people like me to relieve myself at time by daydreams of some victim being tortured and being mine. It's a big complicated game. My friend of the monster play, putting victims' numbers down, follow them, checking up on them, waiting in the dark, waiting, waiting. The pressure is great, and sometimes he run the game to his liking. Maybe you can stop him, I can't.

• 1:09:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  He has already chosen his next victim or victims. I don't know who they are yet. The next day after I read the paper, I will know, but it too late. Good luck hunting. Yours truly, guiltily. P.S. Since sex criminals do not change their MO, or by nature cannot do so, I will not change mine. The code words for me will be bind them, torture them, kill them. BTK. You see he added again, they will be on the next victim. End quote. So yeah, this dude's not being controlled by anything. He's like, I can't stop him. You could stop him. I mean, you could write your name. You could say, signed yours truly guiltily, Dennis Rader. And then it would be stopped.

• 1:09:41Derrick Levasseur?

  By the way, this goes more into your defense of what you've said about BTK specifically. I think this is a really good argument and a piece of evidence to support your argument at this point. As you mentioned earlier, with someone like a Taylorship business or people like that, they can't control what they're doing. There's no strategic thought with it. It's impulsive, they carry it out, and they're gonna get caught pretty quickly because they're not taking any measures not to get caught. And by the way, they wouldn't come out later and say, I did it. They would just probably do it again and move on. With BTK... Like you said, this is not someone who has a mental health disorder, a deep mental health disorder where they're not even aware of what they're doing. He's completely coherent. He understands it to the point where he's frustrated that he's not getting the recognition

• 1:10:25Derrick Levasseur?

  that he believes he deserves, to the point where he's helping law enforcement and providing his moniker. Instead of just letting it develop on its own, he's like, hey, listen, I'm gonna cut out the middleman. This is what I want to be called. That is a sane, coherent individual who knows exactly what they're doing. So to your point, I couldn't agree with you more, with BTK specifically.

• 1:10:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Once again, yeah, exactly. He's like, not only do I want you to know that I killed the Otero family, but bind, torture, kill my victims. I think he wants them to know that he was responsible for Kathy Bright as well. And now he's giving them a calling card. So now the future murders you see, you'll know I was responsible for them too. Just so, so there's no confusion when somebody else comes forward and falsely confesses. Like, what are these people trying to do? Really like steal my thunder here? I don't want there to be any confusion about this ever again. It was me.

• 1:11:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And it's, uh, it's fascinating from the perspective of developing profiles on these types of people because we're gonna, we have to look for them in the future. And when you think about it, it's not just the thrill of the actual crime. It's not the gratification they get during the crime. It's the getting away with it, right? Being able to see the aftermath, the investigators looking for them, the fear they create within that community, the pain and suffering that they cause with the victims' families and friends. That's the real, that's what they get off to. It's the whole thing. It's not just committing the act and I'm gonna go into the shadows. They need all of it. None of it is individually enough. They want to see the hurt that they've caused. That's really the icing on the cake for them.

• 1:11:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's why I genuinely do feel that BTK hunted in his own backyard, his own community, because he wanted to go to church and hear how afraid people were of this horrendous BTK killer. He wanted to go and drop his kids off at school and hear the teachers and administrators talking about how afraid they were. He wanted to go home and hear his wife watching news and saying she was afraid. He wanted that fear to be tangible and close by. He didn't want to just read about it in the newspapers. He wanted to see it and feel it every day in his own hometown.

• 1:12:27Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. It's, I mean, the evidence is right there. I mean, why else would you write that letter other than to make sure that you're, again, getting credit for what you did?

• 1:12:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  And listen, he didn't send this letter to the police, right? He, he placed the letter inside a book titled Applied Engineering Mechanics at the Wichita Public Library. And then he didn't just leave it there thinking one day someone would find it. Cause he couldn't risk that. Then somebody else could keep, keep getting credit for his crimes. He called a columnist for the Wichita Eagle and told this guy, hey, there's a letter in this book at this library. Go get it. He knew exactly what he was doing. And the columnist obviously notified the police who found it exactly where Raider said it would be. And then after reading the letter, Wichita police realized, hey, we're dealing with a deranged monster.

• 1:13:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  His name was BTK and little did they know, he was nowhere near done killing, but that will have to wait for part three. I think we've had enough trauma for one day.

• 1:13:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, but you could see the escalation here, right? It started off where it took him a long time to commit his first murder. And now he has this thirst that he can't quench and it's going to get worse and worse. And not only that, he wants this recognition for it. So he knows in order to make sure that everyone knows who he is and they start to refer to this, this thing as BTK, he's going to commit more acts. And he's telling them that. He's telling them, hey, listen, there's going to be more victims.

• 1:13:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't stop him. Hopefully you can, but I can't.

• 1:13:57Derrick Levasseur?

  And now, yeah, I'm completely with you as far as I can't stop him. Are you serious? When, when are you yourself? When you're writing these letters? Because it sounds like the person writing this letter, if you were really concerned about this demon and the fact that you couldn't stop him, hey, here's an idea. In that letter, when you're coherent and you're your normal self, your white hat, why not write a letter about who you are and what you've done?

• 1:14:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. Sign it. Sign it to Dennis Rader. Yeah.

• 1:14:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. Or maybe you go to the police station and say, hey, listen, I need to turn myself in because there's another part of me that when he comes out, he's a bad person and he kills people. So while I myself, here I am. Put me behind bars because that's the only way we're going to be able to stop this. So as you had said earlier in this episode, and yes, you have that privilege of writing the script and going through that process, but. This guy knows exactly what he's doing and he is, he's full of shit.

• 1:14:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and once again, we're gonna, and I know we've brought him up multiple times during the series, but that's because there do seem to be parallels and commonalities. Brian Koberger, right? There is evidence that Brian Koberger, he wanted control, he wanted attention, you know, he studied criminology, he had exposure to BTK experts, he was a PhD student in criminology, he studied under people who have written about Dennis Rader. This is an association that a lot of people pointed out early on. And once again, investigative records and search warrants show that he deliberately planned and, you know, set everything out and he was looking in the media. He was trying to kind of see what the people were saying about him.

• 1:15:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  He didn't send taunting letters or adopt a public signature the way BTK did. Not yet, right? Because this was his first murder. BTK didn't do that after the Otero murders either. It was only after Kathy Bright, when somebody else, and I wonder if Brian Koberger, if somebody had falsely confessed to what happened at the University of Idaho, would Brian Koberger have pulled a BTK? I don't know, but I, I, I think psychologically, yeah, there's this, this desire for control and mastery. Not necessarily public fans of, of Brian or Dennis, but you want to be able to be free and walking out in the world to witness firsthand the terror that you've caused,

• 1:16:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  the, the chaos and the confusion that you've caused. And I think Brian Koberger was definitely getting gratification from early media attention on these killings, just like BTK was. So i- if he had continued, he could have turned into a BTK. He could have started sending letters. He would have thought he was smart enough to do that and get away with it, just like Dennis Rader did.

• 1:16:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and there is a part of me that as we cover these types of cases and you start to, to understand the motive behind it and, and, and part of that motive being recognition. I almost feel like I'm part of the problem when we're covering it because it's giving him ultimately what he wanted. But I think in hindsight, we know he's been caught and we know that there's a lot we can learn from this. Not only from a law enforcement perspective, how to better investigate these types of cases. But as we've been saying since we started Crime Weekly, the whole reason behind it is to take these tragedies that unfortunately we cannot change. And learn from them because Catherine, the Otero's, they're just like you and I.

• 1:17:20Derrick Levasseur?

  And they woke up that morning thinking it was going to be a normal day. They didn't do anything wrong. They weren't in this weird place where they were surrounded by people that could potentially hurt them. It happened to them. It can happen to you. And the only thing we can do is learn the patterns of these monsters. And maybe, maybe there's something you take from one of these episodes where it causes you to add that extra camera or add that extra fence or lock that door a certain way, or just add an extra barrier between you and the people you care about. Maybe you don't need it. Maybe you do. Maybe you'll never know that you needed it and that it prevented something. But that to me is why we do this and why we give this person any exposure because it's not about him.

• 1:18:05Derrick Levasseur?

  It's about the victims and their families because I think if they could talk to us now, they would tell us, hey, listen, we wish we were there with you, but if anything, take from our, our tragedy and learn from it so that it doesn't happen to you as well. And that's, that's what I try to do as we're covering these cases because this guy doesn't deserve any breath. He shouldn't be alive anymore. We know he's responsible for many victims and probably more. The only thing he has left to contribute to society is to let us know any of the other victims he's responsible for.

• 1:18:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which he won't.

• 1:18:35Derrick Levasseur?

  So that their families can have closure, but he won't do that. Yes, you just were about to say it. And I know we got more episodes to cover.

• 1:18:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's got enough recognition and gratification from his crimes now, right? Why would he need more? He, now he can sort of put the other victims that he hasn't identified in the little hidey holes of his brain and keep those just for himself.

• 1:18:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Can we just stick all the evidence up his hidey hole?

• 1:18:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  I want to stick something up his hidey hole.

• 1:19:00Derrick Levasseur?

  That might be painful, but I think we'd all enjoy it.

• 1:19:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think he deserves it. Yeah.

• 1:19:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Okay. Any final words from you?

• 1:19:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I, I'm definitely looking forward to continuing on next week.

• 1:19:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 1:19:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've enjoyed our conversations tonight. I feel. I feel like I think we both have a little bit of a better understanding of the psychological

• 1:19:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  mindset of these people and that's not always a happy place to be, but.

• 1:19:21Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no. And fortunately, unfortunately, however you want to look at it, there's still more to go. We haven't even gotten into the drawings and there's so much more, but I think this is why a lot of people are fascinated by this case. Not because of this idiot, but because of what we can take away from it and how it can be applied to other cases. So we appreciate you being here. If you're, I guess, enjoying the way we're telling these stories, not necessarily the stories themselves, we'd appreciate it if you like the video, comment, subscribe to the channel, whether you're listening on audio or YouTube, we would greatly appreciate it. It allows us to be seen and heard by more people, which allows us to share these stories. Until next week, everyone stay safe out there and we'll see you soon.

• 1:20:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.