David J (Bauhaus/Love and Rockets) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan sits down with David J of Bauhaus /Love and Rockets, one of the quiet architects of alternative music. David shares stories about growing up in working-class England, discovering reggae and punk, the accidental genesis of "Bela Lugosi's Dead," and Bauhaus' mission to dismantle the conventions of traditional rock. Billy reflects on hearing Bauhaus for the first time and how the band permanently reshaped his understanding of music and artistic freedom. David recalls the surreal night Iggy Pop appeared front row at Danceteria, reveals what it truly took to reunite with Peter Murphy after years of estrangement, and reflects candidly on releasing more than 20+ solo albums for a niche-but-devoted audience, driven less by ambition than by an unstoppable need to create. Check out David's album: "Tracks From The Attic Revisited" here: https://www.independentprojectrecords.com/david-j See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  A guitar is not necessarily something that you you strum. You know, you can hit it with a with a stick. Whatever it takes to get the right sound out of the thing.

• 0:10Billy Corgan?

  To fanboy for a second. To me, Bauhaus is one of the greatest bands ever.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Well, a big thing for us was not doing the obvious and not not being rock.

• 0:22Billy Corgan?

  I'm always impressed by how confident your musical life has been to let things be simple or imperfect or just be what they are.

• 0:31Speaker 00

  When we started, I mean, we got a lot of resistance and we really relished kicking against that.

• 0:37Billy Corgan?

  Did you guys have an intellectual kind of conversation at the beginning? You are named for an art movement.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. No.

• 0:45Billy Corgan?

  I love it. Dave, nice to see you. Thank you for being here today. You honor me with your presence.

• 0:52Speaker 00

  Thank you, Billy.

• 0:56Billy Corgan?

  Where can we begin? Okay. I'm fascinated because of the music that came out of the UK in the 60s, 70s, 80s. This kind of post-war gloom. You weren't necessarily born right after the war, but you were born in 57. What was the environment that you grew up in? You know, if you would just kind of give me a postcard view of it.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I come from a town called Northampton. It's right in the middle of middle of England. It's the Midlands. It's the center, furthest place from the sea in England, actually. And it's a it's a small market town. The industry is making shoes, boots and shoes.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  So there's factories for that. And there's a brewery there, the Carlsberg Brewery. And there's a there's a town center, market square. It's a it was a pretty rough place growing up there.

• 1:55Billy Corgan?

  Kind of industrial, the typical industrial kind of.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  It had an element of that. Yeah, very working class. Just really.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Just a kind of hard place and pretty tough and rough and ready. Um surrounded by beautiful countryside.

• 2:15Billy Corgan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  Which was, you had to escape, you know, go into the countryside, which was near.

• 2:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Um but the set, the town centre was very, very working class and it was a rough place. And we got a lot of stick when I, I first formed Bar House with the other guys.

• 2:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I had a feeling forming an art band.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were very much outsiders.

• 2:40Billy Corgan?

  I bet.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  You know.

• 2:41Billy Corgan?

  What did your parents do?

• 2:43Speaker 00

  My parents were, they had a newsagent and tobacco in the shop.

• 2:46Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  Um little shop on the corner. And that did quite well, that shop, mainly due to my mum's kind of business acumen. And they built that, that up quite well. And so I, as a result of that, my brother and I, we went to a public school for two years, which in England, a public school is the opposite to here, it's sort of like a private school.

• 3:15Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  So, um, and that was quite formative in a way.

• 3:19Billy Corgan?

  I was gonna say, yeah.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Different, um, certainly like the, the level of education was a lot higher.

• 3:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  But it was, um, pretty draconian in its, um, it was like, you know, Tom Brown's School Days to a degree, corporal punishment and all that.

• 3:36Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  And that was another kind of tough place. So I only lasted two years and then went back to a, just what they called a secondary modern school, just a regular school. And I found I was like, I was two years ahead of everybody.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  But soon slipped back because I wanted to hang out with the cool kids.

• 3:58Billy Corgan?

  As you do.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:00Billy Corgan?

  So, uh. Every musician has their apocryphal, you know, the moment where the music sort of flashed in their brain, like, I'm gonna do that. What was your sort of?

• 4:10Speaker 00

  That would be, well, the very first thing was reggae.

• 4:15Billy Corgan?

  Which has always been present in your music.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:18Billy Corgan?

  This kind of dub dub feel.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I'm talking about like prior to dub.

• 4:23Billy Corgan?

  Are we talking like Desmond Decker?

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Desmond Decker, the Toots and the Maytals, things like that.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  And a lot of the early records that were produced by Lee Scratch Perry. And that had a big impression on me. So this is like nineteen seventy.

• 4:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  So I was like thirteen.

• 4:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  My mates and I, we used to sneak into the Skinhead Disco. We were too young to get in, but we would sneak in. And that's where the first place where I heard music really loud in the dark. And in the edgy company of the Skins, you know.

• 5:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Who would be quite amused by us. Nippers and they would like ply us with beer and get us drunk.

• 5:09Billy Corgan?

  Is this like nascent punk times or?

• 5:13Speaker 00

  No, because it was.

• 5:15Billy Corgan?

  What were the, what were the Skinheads listening to?

• 5:17Speaker 00

  To reggae exclusively.

• 5:18Billy Corgan?

  Really? Oh, I didn't know.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  That's all they played there.

• 5:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. This part of English culture is kind of lost to the Americans, you know?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the reason that there was a lot of that music in England was because of the the mass immigration from the West Indies and Jamaica.

• 5:35Billy Corgan?

  Basically colonialism, right?

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Well.

• 5:38Billy Corgan?

  Well, could they were, weren't they colonies at some point?

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but there was a, it was the other way, you know, and, and those people coming in.

• 5:46Billy Corgan?

  No, I'm not saying, but it was the connection of the cultures through colonialism that sort of sets that, sets that emotion.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:51Billy Corgan?

  Again, this is my American taste.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they were kind of, the natives were kind of escaping that to go back to the source of the imperialism. But they set up their own culture there in England and it was very prevalent and made a big impression.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Musically.

• 6:08Billy Corgan?

  What was the attraction to the skinheads, if you remember, like, what did they like that it was? Was it sitting as more pure? Or was it, what was there? Because the skinheads tend to have some kind of socio-political logic to what they're into.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it was an identification with the archetype of the rude boy.

• 6:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  And the clothes, they liked the clothes, and that was influential on the the dress sense of the skinheads. It then morphed into the suede heads. I was a, I was a, an early, I was a suede head because I'd never got that skinhead haircut. So when they all started to grow out their hair, you know, it was recognized that I was, I was already there.

• 6:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's fascinating too, because I know you, you, you had your dips into Motown, but like, basically, Motown and Stax had such an influence on reggae. So going back through what you were influenced by, it's like an interesting loop there.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So that was the, that was the first music that made a big impression on me. And then shortly after that, I mean, what really blew it all apart was Mark Bowlin and T-Rex.

• 7:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  So this is like seventy one, seventy two.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  And I was totally captivated by all that. I joined, that's the only fan club I've ever joined, is the T-Rex fan club.

• 7:26Billy Corgan?

  What did you get for joining the fan?

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Well, I would wait with bated breath for my monthly package that would come through of a newsletter, a photo of Mark, you know, with a printed

• 7:39Billy Corgan?

  Did you save that stuff?

• 7:40Speaker 00

  Signature. No, I wish.

• 7:42Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Occasionally a flexi disc, which is quite a treat. And I think they, they go for big bucks now.

• 7:49Billy Corgan?

  I bet.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  But yeah, I was a paid up member. And then, again, shortly after that, Bowie, of course.

• 7:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, David Bowie was quite fascinated with Mark Bowlin too. He said, I'll take some of that.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 8:08Billy Corgan?

  As you know, not everybody wants to play the bass. It tends to be the redheaded stepchild of musicians. So what was it about the bass? Was it the dub reggae part of it all?

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Well, this is prior to dub, but it was certainly the reggae. Yeah.

• 8:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  And I identified that sound and that instrument as being very integral to the music that I loved. And nobody else wanted to play the bass, you know. My first band I was in at school, there were five lead guitarists.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  And then I was one of them, aspiring, you know, and failing. And then it was suggested by one of us that, well, somebody has to be the bass player. And I just stepped forward.

• 8:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  You know, maybe all the other guys stepped back. But no, I always gravitated to it.

• 9:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because I love the bass, but you know, as an 18-year-old guitar player, I wanted nothing to do with the bass, you know.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 9:07Billy Corgan?

  It's the guitar, you know?

• 9:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. Certain types.

• 9:12Billy Corgan?

  Tony Viscotti, wasn't he the T-Rex bassist essentially?

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Well, he played on some of the records. Bill Curry, the regular guy.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  But I mean, Tony Viscotti, yes, very good bass player.

• 9:28Billy Corgan?

  But when you talk about the reggae influence and you're playing, it's like suddenly, because when I first heard you playing, I couldn't understand where it was coming from. Because I only saw it within the guise of what we would now call alternative music.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:39Billy Corgan?

  You know, where it's like, you think of like Steve Severn or something, it's very like aggressive and you know, maybe playing higher hooky.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 9:46Billy Corgan?

  But you were coming from this totally other quadrant of logic.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, although I did have elements of what you're talking about as well.

• 9:55Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying that part of your playing was a mystery to me.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  Right, yes. And that is coming from dub.

• 10:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Because I mean, basically.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  Well, a key component of Beverly Goes is Dead is it's got a dub.

• 10:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Factor there.

• 10:12Billy Corgan?

  It makes total sense when you put it in that frame.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  With the echo as well.

• 10:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we were all into reggae, especially myself and Daniel. We were very much into dub. So, yeah.

• 10:26Billy Corgan?

  That also explains the sort of some of the Love and Rocket stuff even.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's always been there, yeah.

• 10:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 10:33Billy Corgan?

  So I'm not asking you to repeat the origin story of the band, but but I'm curious, you know, having a musical brother, you know, the, you know, and you know, the famous brother pairings, the Kinks and the Gallaghers and stuff like that. Was it was it always the intention you guys were going to work together or was it did that sort of?

• 10:53Speaker 00

  My brother and I?

• 10:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Well, how I'll tell you how that started and I told I told this story to Tony Visconti, mentioning him.

• 11:01Billy Corgan?

  Oh, very.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  And he loved it. So the first time I ever recorded anything, and that was on a reel to reel tape recorder that belonged to my parents, was because I had the T-Rex singles, so we would play those sort of quite low volume. And I would sing over the top and warble and attempt to sound a bit like Mark Bolan. And Kevin would play, he would be Mickey Finn and he would be playing.

• 11:30Billy Corgan?

  Conkers?

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Well, he upturned Flower Pots, literally, as his Conkers, in lieu of Conkers. And we would make these, oh, God, I wish I had those. You know.

• 11:42Billy Corgan?

  Record store day, you know, it's in this day and age, it's a release.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that was the start of it, really.

• 11:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  And then we were and then Kevin, he had a natural talent for drums.

• 11:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  And he got a kit, pretty basic kit, you know.

• 11:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  But he was just very, very dedicated. He'd just be playing for for hours and hours, much to the chagrin of the neighbors.

• 12:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:09Billy Corgan?

  It's it's not a fair question to ask, but I wonder if there's anything to it.

• 12:14Billy Corgan?

  Both you and your brother have very asymmetrical approaches to your instruments. And it seems to me that, given the breadth of your work over so many years, like, some alternative people, they want to be alternative, so they play alternative or weird. But you guys just played different from the get-go.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:36Billy Corgan?

  Was that something that was intrinsic? You think it's in the family? Was there an influence or was it just the way it was? Does it make sense the way I'm asking?

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Way it was, really.

• 12:46Billy Corgan?

  But you know, like, some people think like anti, you know, like, some post-punk people are like, they were anti-something, like, I'm not gonna play it like this, I'm gonna play it like that. Because I remember the first time I really paid attention to your brother as a drummer, I remember thinking, he plays so cool, he always plays cool stuff. And he's not trying to be flash or...

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:07Billy Corgan?

  He always plays like just cool stuff on the songs. And he obviously can play drums, it's not like he lacks skill.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:13Billy Corgan?

  But it's not, not everybody think, you know, most drummers want to show off.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:17Billy Corgan?

  Most of the arguments with drummers are like, you need to calm it down.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  He's the opposite. And he was schooled by a jazz guy.

• 13:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  So he has that, that was his, like, he took lessons from this jazz guy. Keith Cumberbatch and...

• 13:32Billy Corgan?

  Good name.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, I mean, if you notice, Kevin holds the sticks that...

• 13:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, it's traditional, yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Jazz style. And he's just very tasteful and subtle.

• 13:43Billy Corgan?

  But I would say that about your playing too, you know what I mean? That's like, it's just interesting that it's sort of in the family, but I don't know if that's a fair way to put it.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  I think also Kevin and I influenced each other, playing together, you know, we listen intently to each other and what we were playing and respond accordingly.

• 14:00Billy Corgan?

  I see, yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  So there's, there is that sort of nuance.

• 14:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  So that is a family thing, I suppose.

• 14:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I recently came across this clip, it's like, maybe from one of your earliest gigs at Video. I'm sure you probably saw it at some point, but you guys are playing... I mean, you sound like Bauhaus already. You know what I mean? It's like, and it's pretty early in the process. I think you form-

• 14:21Speaker 00

  In a pub?

• 14:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's like a grainy, like a grainy video.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, the, I think, was it the Racehorse Pub?

• 14:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's kind of from the side, looking up.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  I think it was a Romany pub, I think that was. Um, yeah, 1979, that was one of our very first gigs.

• 14:37Billy Corgan?

  But it's wild to me because you sound, you already sound like the band. Like,

• 14:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:41Billy Corgan?

  Like, if you heard my band early on, you don't sound like the band later.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Right, right. Yeah.

• 14:48Billy Corgan?

  Was that an instant, an instant communication thing?

• 14:52Speaker 00

  It was. Um, I was the last to join the band, uh, because prior to that, I had been in other bands with Daniel. But I would kind of cool the shots to a degree. And I knew that he wanted to cool the shots. And he wanted this, his, this band to be kind of like his band. Not that he's, you know, like, domineering in that way, but, um, he didn't want me involved because he, he didn't want my strong influence. And I totally understood that.

• 15:24Billy Corgan?

  What was his, what was his musical vision, say, pre-Bauhaus?

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:30Billy Corgan?

  Since you, since you knew him, what was?

• 15:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:32Billy Corgan?

  Who did he want to be or what did he want it to be?

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Just very stripped down, nothing superfluous, nothing unnecessary, honed, like, razor sharp, just simple, direct. And I love all of that, minimalism, you know?

• 15:52Speaker 00

  But, uh, this is 1978 and I'd committed to go to Germany to play on American air bases with a funk disco band. And it's quite good money and like a, a regular gig and you, you live out there. So I'd, I'd learned like 60 of these funk disco tracks on the bass. And this was a couple of days before I was due to go to Hamburg. And Daniel knocked on my door and asked me to join the band. Now, just prior to that, he'd asked if I would come down to their rehearsal room and just give my opinion, especially of the singer, because Daniel, he wasn't entirely sure about the singer. I don't know why he wasn't sure.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Mainly, I suppose, because Peter had never sung before, not on a stage, you know. He was working in a printers factory. And he was Daniel's best mate at school.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  And he looked great. And that's the main reason that Daniel.

• 16:57Billy Corgan?

  Such an incredible voice. It's such just.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  I know.

• 16:59Billy Corgan?

  He could have been the worst singer in the world.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  I know, and he could have got away with it. But so I go down there to check him out. And I'm just completely blown away by this kid, you know. And then Daniel, at the end of it, he sidles up to me and says, what do you think? Daniel, he's solid gold.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Come on, he's like so charismatic and he's got a great voice.

• 17:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I was really impressed and I like also the music. And it was that kind of honed, simple minimalism. And I so wanted to be a part of it, Billy. But I couldn't say anything, you know, it's like, not fair enough.

• 17:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  But he came out and I'm so glad he did, Daniel.

• 17:41Billy Corgan?

  How much longer after you saw them sort of, let's try it.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Two weeks.

• 17:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  So I.

• 17:49Billy Corgan?

  Isn't it, I interrupt, but interesting, because I have moments like that where it's like, your life could have gone a totally different direction if it wasn't for that thing happening.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely.

• 17:58Billy Corgan?

  That's where it feels faded to me, you know, when you see that, it's like, that's the stars align, you're like, because your brother's already playing.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:06Billy Corgan?

  You seem like a no brainer now in hindsight, but at the time it wasn't.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it's very true.

• 18:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, your brother could have been like, I don't want my brother in the band and that would have been the end of it, right?

• 18:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, could have been. But I think it's interesting as well in that all that sort of homeschooling that I did with the funk and the disco, it came out. And it comes out into Bauhaus, but in a kind of, I call it twisted disco.

• 18:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  It comes out, but it's, you know, there's some disco basslines there, some real funk basslines.

• 18:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 00

  Things, things like kicking the eye, in fear, fear, dancing, it's there, you know? But I think it's only there because I did that intensive, you know, session.

• 18:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, to fanboy for a second, to me Bauhaus is one of the greatest bands ever. So that's easy for me to say. And what makes it so interesting to me in hindsight is like all the great bands, there's something about the amalgam of the influences and the personalities, it just works.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  It shouldn't, yeah.

• 19:12Billy Corgan?

  It shouldn't, but it does. And I think it's easy now in hindsight to recognize that.

• 19:19Billy Corgan?

  So bear with me, it's a little long-winded, but, but when I, 2001, I'm, I'm living in New York and, and, and I knew the guys from New Order a little bit. I, I met Hooky even before the Pumpkins' first album, so I knew him a little bit. And I get this call at home and they're asking me to come to England because they're reforming New Order. And they're making a record and they want me to be on the record, which was curious to me why, but I did go. So that's begins my, my maturation process of getting to know New Order, the, the people, the band. Now, as a New Order fan, I'd always completely overly intellectualized who they were, why they were, why they did what they did.

• 20:01Billy Corgan?

  And when I got around them, I realized I was completely wrong. They're completely intuitive creatures. It's not to say they lack intelligence. They're actually very bright guys, all of them. But I had always figured there was like, they would sit around and talk about Kierkegaard or some And then do the songs. And there's none of that with them. Mostly it was like, we, you know, I'd say, how did you guys work? How we just do cocaine for three days? Of course, they call it Charlie. We'll do Charlie for three days and whatever came out, that's what came out. And I'm thinking like, I mean, you're not talking about Dada, you know what I mean? It's like I'd had, and I think I did the same thing with you guys. So the setup on the question is, did you guys have an intellectual kind of conversation at the beginning? You are named for an art movement.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. No.

• 20:44Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  No, we never discuss it.

• 20:47Billy Corgan?

  That makes it, to me, that makes it even more brilliant because whatever came out of it had such an aesthetic underpinning. And I'm not saying it was just the visuals and the name. It's in the music.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, with, with the name Bauhaus, see, I, I came up with that. And why I came up with that.

• 21:05Billy Corgan?

  What a great name.

• 21:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, I applied it to the, the original school Envima and, and their ideology. And that was about, you know, everything stripped down, everything is functional, it's the functional as art and streamlined. And I just thought, this is kind of what we're doing in music. So it, it resonates, you know?

• 21:28Billy Corgan?

  So you're the intellectual overlay.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Well, everybody, you know, has, has a leaning in that area to a degree. I, I came up with the name, having been to art school. Danny was in art school as well, because that was my brother. And Peter nearly went to art school. So we're all, you know, of that.

• 21:46Billy Corgan?

  I just find it fascinating because there's such a depth in the aesthetics of Bauhaus's musical output. And it's, you know, it's varied and obviously there's a ton of influences. But it's just, it blows my mind that when I started listening to you guys when I was 17, 18, that there was no, like, you guys didn't sit around and talk about, I don't know, Dali or something, you know, it just blows my mind because I got that out of the music.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Um, we would sit around and talk about Dali and Dada.

• 22:14Billy Corgan?

  But you know what I'm saying?

• 22:14Speaker 00

  We wouldn't apply it to the music. We never talked about the music. Only after we'd done it, and it was whether it was any good or not.

• 22:22Billy Corgan?

  So, so, so give me a, give me a, you can be specific or general. How does, how does the, how does the band work in its prime? Like, somebody comes in, I got an idea and everybody just does what they want to do. Like, how did that actually function from, from writing to recording? Because, sorry, more, more blubbiating here, but.

• 22:43Billy Corgan?

  What strikes me, and again, I've been listening since eighty four. What strikes me is there's such variance in production, approach. And, you know, of course, you guys get the moniker of the Goth thing, but there's humor, there's unexpected things. Your B-sides are some of the coolest B-sides ever because they're just like, it sounds like you guys are just having a laugh. Like, the band didn't take itself too seriously. At least that was my impression.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  That was true.

• 23:09Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  Sometimes we did.

• 23:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but I'm, but I'm, you know what I'm saying. But I'm saying, because when people try to tell me my music's depressing, it's like, I'm in a band called The Smashing Punk. It's how depressing can it be, right? It's a joke.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 23:21Billy Corgan?

  So what I, my point is, is just walk me through as a fan, me being the fan, walk me through,

• 23:27Billy Corgan?

  you know, a prototypical, somebody shows up with an idea and here's how it ends up on the record. Like, I really want to know the, the fascination for me as a fan is, how did it work politically? Like.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay. We would, as I say, we did not discuss it and we would often turn up without any ideas at all. And we just, we wouldn't even talk to each other and we'd just be, we'd pick up our instruments and just start playing. With Bella, I mean, I'd written those lyrics the day before. And that's all we had. And I handed that, a sheet of those lyrics to Peter. And then, this is a good example, actually, to illustrate what I'm, I'm talking about. Because then we all just started making this row, you know? And out of the row, it, it, something emerges. It's sort of out of the fog. And, um, and what emerged that time was

• 24:21Speaker 00

  Daniel, the sounds that Daniel was making. And, and those chords, that descending chord, which he, chord sequence that he actually got from Gary Glitter. Rock and Roll. Yeah, that was, because I asked him about it afterwards and that was what was in his head, but it kind of mutated and became weird. And then he added the echo. And then Kevin plays, of all things, Bossa Nova. Because that was something that he'd learned from his jazz teacher, you know? He only knew two rhythms and that was one. So he started playing that and it fits so perfectly. And then when we added the echo to it, it becomes something other. It becomes, you know, Bossa Nova in dub.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  And then I just, I listened and I, I heard that descending bassline. And I played, I played it. It's not just single notes, it's actually octaves.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  And it all just gelled together. And it was a shivery moment when that all happened together. And then Peter starts to intone those lyrics, pretty much as you hear it on the record.

• 25:25Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  And we just knew we had something magic.

• 25:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so take me in the studio, because that was your first single. So continue example. So are you guys the type of band like, you do what you do, I'll do what I do, and everybody kind of leaves each other alone, or is there, or is there, everybody got an opinion?

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Everybody's suddenly got an opinion and, and it's open to anybody doing anything.

• 25:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  And we don't have to stick to our given instruments, you know, we can do whatever.

• 25:50Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Suggest the idea or try it, you know, and see if it works. As we went on, it became a bit more structured in that we would bring ideas of, for songs.

• 26:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  To the band. Sometimes like something that's half written. Um, with the chords and the lyrics and everything. Or sometimes somebody, Daniel comes in, he's got some, a chord progression and I've got some lyrics or Peter's got some lyrics. And we just throw it all together. And quite often it worked.

• 26:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Very spontaneous.

• 26:23Billy Corgan?

  It feels that way.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  Very instinctual.

• 26:25Billy Corgan?

  That's why I think it's fascinating for me because if, if you're saying we didn't sit around and talk about how to do, we just did it.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:31Billy Corgan?

  And then the results are so strong. There's such a, must have been a strong intuitive sense that we're headed the right direction collectively.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Very much so.

• 26:42Billy Corgan?

  Do you, do you ever look back and sort of, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not talking about it in a sentimental frame, but like, you, there's sort of, I guess what, the word I'm looking for is magic sometimes. It's like stuff just kind of happens. It's quicksilver.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Absolutely. That, yes.

• 26:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. And there was a particular chemistry with that band.

• 27:02Billy Corgan?

  That's why I say, well, you guys are one of the great bands because there's something about the four communications.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:08Billy Corgan?

  That that really holds very strongly across all the work.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there was also part and parcel of it was a personal friction.

• 27:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but I'm not a gossip guy, but give me the sense of the politics of the fiction, maybe is a better way to ask the question. Like in my band.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:30Billy Corgan?

  This might shock people in my band. I actually wanted a democracy.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:35Billy Corgan?

  I just figured out very quickly that that was not going to work. Part of that was I was writing most of the songs. So at some point, you just start to start to assert power because it's your songs.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:47Billy Corgan?

  But I wanted to be challenged. I wanted people to come in with a better song than me. I literally would beg my mates to write stuff. They just weren't interested or it wasn't part of their sort of DNA.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:58Billy Corgan?

  So I never had to necessarily live in that type of political atmosphere. But, you know, every, every band, you know, to make you laugh, it's obvious to me, listening to the band, yes, that as far as Heath saw it is Chris Squire's band. Because the bass is loud. And he's basically kind of running the shop on the musical side of the equation. Now, if you ask John Anderson, who I've met, lovely guy, he probably thought it was his band with Chris Squire. But for me, from, from having been in bands, we've been in bands, I look and I go, no, Chris Squire thought it was his band. Does it make sense the way I'm asking?

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I understand, yeah.

• 28:35Billy Corgan?

  And I'm not saying who was Bauhaus's band, but I'm saying, how did it work politically when you had friction?

• 28:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, we never had that kind of attitude. We all, all had the attitude that it is a democracy and it's our band.

• 28:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  And everybody's really important.

• 28:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  You know?

• 28:53Billy Corgan?

  Was, was there ever a moment where it's like they, they were like, but you two are brothers, you need to get that?

• 28:58Speaker 00

  No.

• 28:59Billy Corgan?

  Because in my band, you know, James and Darcy were a couple.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:03Billy Corgan?

  So sometimes when we get into political stuff, they would vote as a block.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  No, that wasn't the case at all.

• 29:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay, sorry, I keep interrupting you, but I'm really curious on how the band worked politically because.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, I mean, it's complicated.

• 29:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  Um, well, for start, we had the old thing of, you know, the singer is singled out.

• 29:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  You know, and people just like when the press came in to the picture, they just want to talk to him.

• 29:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  You know, and it rubbed us up the wrong way. And, um, you know, you just sort of, you harbor this kind of, uh, it's, you begrudge it to a degree. Um, and then the other side of that is, you know, Peter, Peter kind of enjoyed that. That being in the limelight, you know?

• 29:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  And did not shy away from it, fair enough, but it went, it went a bit far, you know? So there's that, it's a very common story.

• 30:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  With bands, you know? And there was, there was a kind of separation there. It was, you know, us three over here and him over there.

• 30:15Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel, looking back now, I mean, I don't know where everybody is at the moment, but looking back now, do you, do you have a more empathy for that? Or, or, or do you see it as kind of annoying?

• 30:27Speaker 00

  I have more understanding of it. Yeah, in a way, there's empathy.

• 30:34Billy Corgan?

  Cause I, the way I look at it, cause I, I try not to personalize, cause sometimes I'll see these types of things happen to another artist. And I try not to project my own feelings. I just try to, try to think that must have been unique. Like, for example, being around, you know, Nirvana circa ninety two. You know, suddenly it was all about one guy. I knew behind the scenes, it's not really how it operated and I knew everybody a little bit.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:58Billy Corgan?

  But you could see that, you know, the, the magnetism of the moment, you know, sort of starts to pull people in a different direction.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Sure. Yeah, that's an extreme example there than when you just mentioned.

• 31:10Billy Corgan?

  Sure, but I just use it to illustrate the example that it's like.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Good example.

• 31:13Billy Corgan?

  You know, history has a way of picking certain people.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  And also, I mean, I have to say, you know, Peter is not the easiest person to work with.

• 31:24Billy Corgan?

  Do tell.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  He's brilliant, but you know.

• 31:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Could you, can you quantify that a bit in a, in a, in a, like a working musician way? What, what makes him difficult?

• 31:37Speaker 00

  God.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Again, that's complex.

• 31:46Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I knew him, I know him just a little bit because we spent a little time together. Obviously, a very strong personality.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, he sort of has a tendency to lean towards the paranoid a bit, you know, and see things that aren't necessarily there. And prejudice is not there and take it personally. And it causes, that causes a lot of problems.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  And it's something that isn't even talked about until it's resulted in some flakals, something very undesirable.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, just a lot, a big personality clash. But you see, how we would work this out is that we would go on stage and we would direct all that frustration on both sides into the music and the performance. And it would be a kind of exorcism. And it'd be very extreme and very intense. And we'd come off the stage and we'd be best mates again. Until the next gig, or the bus ride to the gig.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Where somebody says something inappropriate.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  And then it all starts again.

• 33:05Billy Corgan?

  First time I heard you guys, I was dating this woman and she was staying at somebody's apartment or something and I'd spent the night. So imagine I've had a bit of a long night with this person and, and she gets up and she pops a cassette in and, and the song she's playing is "Tara Couple, Care, To Care Couple Kill Colonel." That's, should I say that five times fast?

• 33:27Billy Corgan?

  And I have, and I still have a holographic memory of being in this foreign apartment.

• 33:34Billy Corgan?

  And I'm thinking,

• 33:36Billy Corgan?

  what is she playing and why is it so out of tune? Now, I grew up with a musician father, you know, and I was already playing music a bit.

• 33:47Billy Corgan?

  And I just remember thinking,

• 33:50Billy Corgan?

  Why would somebody want to listen to this music? You know, I had like a, like an almost allergic reaction to it. And severe, like almost like, and I didn't think it was terrible. I was just like, why would anyone want to listen to this? And I swear to God, the next day I woke up and I was like, I want to listen to that again. And I was in. I literally went from, eh, and 24 hours later, I was like, I need to listen to this band again. And then I was like, yeah, every, every song, every album.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, we would lean into the eternal.

• 34:24Billy Corgan?

  But isn't it, I don't know if that's, I'm almost asking myself the question, but I find it fascinating that, that it hit me so sideways that I couldn't let it go.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:35Billy Corgan?

  I had no, I had no means by which to process it. Because I, I had a musician father, was a very good musician. So in his world, it would have been like, well, why is the guitar out of tune? Or why is the bass player not really playing a rhythm?

• 34:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:48Billy Corgan?

  You know, you know, what, what is happening? What is, what is this arrangement?

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  You know, and all that stuff.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, the big thing for us was not doing the obvious and not, not being rock.

• 35:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  And not being predictable. And just sort of cookie cutter. To go against the grain of that. If we came up with something that was, it sounded too, it sounded too, we'd say too straight.

• 35:19Billy Corgan?

  Too straight.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Then we'd it up.

• 35:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  On purpose. Uh, we really liked Devo and we liked their approach to music in general.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  Kind of devolution.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  Very early Devo.

• 35:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. And just, and just looking at instruments in a very conventional way. I mean, Daniel's always been brilliant at that.

• 35:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  You know, a guitar is not necessarily something that you, you strum. You know, you can hit it with a, with a stick.

• 35:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Whatever it takes to get the right sound out of the thing.

• 35:51Billy Corgan?

  It's probably an unfair question, but is there an intuitive sense or an intellectual sense where you go, oh, this is too straight? Like, how do you, how do you come to that decision? Cause, cause listening to your music, you know, over this long period of time, you, you've again and again and again, chosen the unconventional path.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Hmm. It just becomes glaringly apparent.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  And then we just, we would immediately act to, to rectify that situation.

• 36:19Billy Corgan?

  But is it, I, I, bad analogy, but in my mind, sometimes when I'm trying to do deconstructionist music, I call it Jenga. I'm trying to remove pieces until it like, if you know anything about what's, what is the thing, uh, homeopathy, you know, the concept of homeopathy where you take something and you cut it so many times that if you actually scientifically measured, the germ is not even in, not even scientifically, but somehow it retains an essence. You take something which is supposed to be inert and so you get the benefit effect of your body recognizing it as an allergen.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:53Billy Corgan?

  So it's like removing musical components to it. It's, it's like, almost like a skeleton of the original idea. It retains some imprint of the original inspiration, but you've somehow mangled it or twisted into something unfamiliar.

• 37:05Speaker 00

  A distillation.

• 37:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, refine, refine.

• 37:08Billy Corgan?

  But is that, I'm asking for a process. Is there a process that you have or is just a felt process?

• 37:14Speaker 00

  It is felt, but it is, it is that process of taking away. So it's kind of like sculpture in a way.

• 37:20Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  We're not adding, we're taking away.

• 37:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  And then what is like, quite often in the studio, we, we'd be hearing a track back and we'd think, we wouldn't think, what can we add to this? We think, what can we take, take away from this?

• 37:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Um, that was pretty key actually for Bauhaus.

• 37:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. It strikes me, uh, in a lot of your work, it, it, there's a minimalism and I think that's not the right word, but, uh, maybe what I'm after is, I'm always impressed by how confident your musical life has been to let things be simple or, or imperfect or just be what they are.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:58Billy Corgan?

  Does it make sense?

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:59Billy Corgan?

  And that's not a slight to say imperfect. It's like, it doesn't sound like somebody took 45 takes to get the vocal just right. They just, they sang it and that's the take. You know what I mean?

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause it's authentic.

• 38:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So that's what I'm after. Like, but where did you get that, where did you get that confidence? Cause most young musicians don't have that kind of confidence.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  We were so confident.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, we just knew what we wanted.

• 38:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  We, we, we, we knew that we were good.

• 38:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:34Billy Corgan?

  I found this quote from Andy Gill, who was, I think, at the time, an NME columnist. He called you guys a hip Black Sabbath.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  I'll take that.

• 38:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, so it's kind of a compliment, really.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 38:47Billy Corgan?

  Obviously, as we sit here in 2026, Goth has become kind of its own phenomenon. Fashion, there's, there's Goth bands aplenty.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  All pervasive.

• 38:57Billy Corgan?

  Right? Of course, they, did they call it Goth back then?

• 39:00Speaker 00

  No.

• 39:00Billy Corgan?

  Was there a word?

• 39:01Speaker 00

  No, there was not.

• 39:04Billy Corgan?

  So just sitting here now, I mean, do you, these kind of early days of what became, you know, an idiomatic thing, how do you reflect on it now?

• 39:17Billy Corgan?

  To me, as a fan, you guys are way more than Goth, but that's sort of what, you know, the lazy writer is just going to call you guys Goth.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, it was post-punk, and that term was around, and we didn't mind that at all. And, and it was, I mean,

• 39:33Speaker 00

  punk was very influential. That was, that was, you met, you very early on in this interview, you asked about, you know, those moments.

• 39:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  One of those moments, big time for me, was seeing the Sex Pistols and The Clash at the Hundred Club in 1976 with my brother. And being in that audience, saying to Kevin, we gotta, this is, this is the way. And we formed a punk band there and then, and played like two weeks later. And, and Daniel was into that whole thing as well. He almost joined that band, but that's another story. But that punk evolved very quickly. And it became

• 40:17Speaker 00

  a, a form that could be influenced by all sorts of genres and all sorts of influences. And I think that was a really great period for music, like 1978, 79. Bands like The Pop Group, you mentioned,

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Andy Gill, the other Andy Gill, Gang of Four.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  Bands in the States like Per Ubu.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Just a very exciting, kind of expansive.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Uh, music that was reaching for the stars, you know, there was not the, there was no limitations imposed on it. That had to be, it was necessary for limitations to be imposed when punk was happening.

• 40:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Because it was like ground zero. Everything had to be burnt down and then

• 41:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  reconstructed in a very simple way.

• 41:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Okay, we've established this now. Now we can expand on it.

• 41:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  You know?

• 41:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, even like, you know, thinking of like even Gary Newman, who kind of took some aspect of the Bowie thing and kind of blew it out the other side.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. And again, with, with Gary, it's very streamlined, very minimal.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's, there's a, there's a beauty there. Uh, I didn't know you guys had toured America in nineteen eighty. You know, that strikes me.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:35Billy Corgan?

  That must have been interesting.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Chicago.

• 41:37Billy Corgan?

  I saw that. I saw that.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Wax tracks.

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  Well, you guys were beloved in Chicago. I think that's the atmosphere that I first encountered you in. It wasn't like some girl had a tape and I listened to you. Like, once I was on to you, me, uh, suddenly there were Bauhaus fans everywhere that I knew, then the world that I was inhabiting in. And it was, and the wax track scene was intrinsically tied to your, but I know you guys had been to Chicago.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:05Billy Corgan?

  But just, if you can reflect on America, because it seems to me it's, it's, the UK's funny and I'm sure you guys got plenty of stick for being weirdos, but coming to America in nineteen eighty, doing what you're doing, that must have been like coming in from Mars.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. The truck stop, some of the truck stops were pretty hairy.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. We were actually pursued on a couple of occasions by irate truckers.

• 42:33Billy Corgan?

  Probably some of my relatives, yeah. Uh, but I, but if you can give me a musical snapshot, you know what I mean? Because again, I think you guys are so fully formed out of the egg. So I know the music was really good. I'd have to go try to find bootlegs or something, but, but so I know you guys are up there doing your thing and there's real strength there. Are you seeing, are you seeing something in the American crowd yet? Or is it too early? Or what, like, I just looking for a snapshot impression.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  Well, the first city that, that got us and got into us was New York. And that's the first place we went to in America. And, uh, there was a connection there certainly. And one of the other places was Chicago, of course.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  New York, um, so we had a wonderful, um, first, our first day in New York, introduction to New York City. We were staying at the Iroquois Hotel.

• 43:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Famous rock and roll hotel. And the first day we're in there, of course, we will make a beeline for the little bar. And it was just us in there and the bartender, and there was one vacant stall, which was soon occupied by Iggy Pop.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  Who of course is one of our all time heroes, you know. He ordered a beer, you know, in that voice. And we heard the voice and so we were kind of nudging each other. Hey, Iggy Pop, you know. And he cottoned on to this. He said, hey, guys, you look like you're in a band, you know. In a band? Yes, yeah, yeah. What's the band? And I said, The Bar House. He goes, oh, like Weimar, Germany? Cool. And then we engaged with him and, um, and he was not disappointing. And he said that he would come and see us because we had two gigs lined up. Um, one little club, um, Tier Three, I think it was called, tiny little place. And, uh, and then Dance Sateria.

• 44:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  In the interim, we were going up to, um, Toronto and to Chicago. And then we went back to New York and the plan was to like create a buzz with this first gig and hopefully sell out Dance Sateria, which is a bigger gig. And it was the gig to play at the time, which happened, well, that happened. So we get to back to New York and play Dance Sateria. And there, down the front, is Ziggy Pop. And he's black leather bikers jacket, baiting Peter. So, come on, my love, bring it, you know, bring it.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  And he was there for the whole gig.

• 45:05Billy Corgan?

  Uh huh.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  And then we come off and so we're like, hey, that was Ziggy down the front, right? And also, door bursts open, he comes in like a Kung Fu guy.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  Hey guys, that's great.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  I saw the name. I was in a car. I saw a name, Bauhaus, and I remembered you guys from the whole time. I thought, okay, I'll check them out. I said to the driver, keep the motor running because these guys, they think they're it, but they're probably, man, and I'm probably gonna be back soon, but I'm here and he's still out there. So there you go.

• 45:37Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  So yeah, that was great. That was a nice affirmation.

• 45:42Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's see, that's providence, right?

• 45:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:44Billy Corgan?

  Meant to be.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Meant to be, yeah. Because we had some big influences in America as well as like the T-Rex.

• 45:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Bowie, Velvet Underground, probably the biggest.

• 45:56Billy Corgan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  And MC5. And the Stooges.

• 46:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  All of those bands.

• 46:04Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you ever get to know Lou at all?

• 46:06Speaker 00

  No.

• 46:07Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever meet him?

• 46:08Speaker 00

  No. John Cale. And Nico.

• 46:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I saw you guys play with Nico.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nico wanted us to be her backing band. Like.

• 46:18Billy Corgan?

  That would have been.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Regular band, you know?

• 46:19Billy Corgan?

  That would have been amazing.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  She'd sung with us a couple of times, yeah.

• 46:22Billy Corgan?

  Did you consider it?

• 46:23Speaker 00

  We considered it for about 20 minutes.

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  Would it, could it, should it?

• 46:29Billy Corgan?

  Would have been amazing. I mean, like, it probably didn't make any sense in reality, but musically, that's, that seems so perfect.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Well, I was telling this story to a friend the other day, and she remarked that it would have been very interesting if we'd gone into the studio with her.

• 46:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  And did something.

• 46:42Billy Corgan?

  Something.

• 46:43Speaker 00

  At that time. This is like 1981.

• 46:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. With that atmosphere.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, me with John Cale producing.

• 46:49Billy Corgan?

  There you go. Uh, I knew Lou a little, I knew Lou a little bit and he liked me for some reason, which, you know, he was such an intimidating presence.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  I can imagine.

• 47:00Billy Corgan?

  But for some reason, he liked me. So whenever I saw him, he was really sweet to me.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  All right, yeah.

• 47:04Billy Corgan?

  And then I would, this is in the time when I was being interviewed a lot. And I'd, I'd sit down for the interviews and the interview would end and they'd go,

• 47:13Billy Corgan?

  that was tough. I go, what do you mean tough? You're, you're really tough to interview. You know what I mean? You're the, you're the, and this happened multiple times. So this isn't a one time story. You're the second toughest interview I've ever done. I would go, who the first? Lou.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Really?

• 47:27Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. Lou would just torture these people.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  You would lacerate them and just play games.

• 47:33Billy Corgan?

  Amazing. God bless Lou.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:36Billy Corgan?

  Define for me, if you know, because I saw it in reference to you, the exquisite corpse technique.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 47:42Billy Corgan?

  Do you know this technique?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 47:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay, please tell me, because I'd never heard of it before.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  I was the one that brought it to the band. And yeah, it's a really kind of a surrealist parlor game, if you will.

• 47:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  And it's based on the old thing of consequences, a consequences drawing where you fold a sheet of paper into four.

• 48:02Billy Corgan?

  My kids who are in the other room, they love doing that.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:04Billy Corgan?

  They do it all the time.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  And somebody draws the head, continues the neckline down, then somebody then folds it over and then shows it.

• 48:11Billy Corgan?

  Would you, would you record that way?

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:13Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  So you pass it to the next person and they.

• 48:16Billy Corgan?

  Didn't Bowie do that on low too? Something similar? Do you know about that?

• 48:19Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't.

• 48:20Billy Corgan?

  I think what I heard is they is, Wisconsin was there and Ena was there. They would, they would bring in somebody like Fripp and they wouldn't play him what the other people had done.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  I've heard of that. Yeah. But we would, yeah, more specifically apply the exquisite corpse idea to music. And the first time we did that was that we would have an allotted time of one minute to do whatever we wanted. And we'd have four tracks total. And we'd have a pre-recorded, a beat that goes through the whole thing.

• 48:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So that's your unifier.

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. Five minutes. And then each of us would take turns without hearing what the other person had done and record their part. And the last five minutes, which was real fun, was that we would have two tracks each and with each just record two tracks that related to the, the whole minute that we'd just done. And then we just, the moment of revelation, play it back. And it's extraordinary how we did that a couple of times, how, how that worked out.

• 49:26Billy Corgan?

  Is there a song you can point to that's the best example? And I gotta hear this. Or I, or I know it.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. On the, um, on the third album, I think it's called exquisite corpse. Um, there's a track that uses that technique.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:47Billy Corgan?

  That sounds so cool.

• 49:52Billy Corgan?

  It struck me at the time when I was listening to you in a contemporary frame when the band was still intact before Breakup One.

• 49:59Billy Corgan?

  That you kind of seemed to exist in your own atmosphere, which I know isn't true, but that's what it felt like to me. But what was your awareness of other groups? You know, some, some groups are hostile to other groups. They're overly ambitious. Like, what was the, once you guys kind of got took off and started running, what was your sort of logic in the time?

• 50:18Speaker 00

  We were kind of in our own little corner. And we didn't really hang out with other bands as such.

• 50:26Billy Corgan?

  Kind of got that feeling.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were our own little gang and.

• 50:30Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what Pete Townsend says. It says people are attracted to gangs.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:36Billy Corgan?

  They want to hang out in the band because they want to be in the gang. That's what he told me.

• 50:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, we were very aware of other groups and we had great respect for some of those groups like Joy Division.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  And the pop group.

• 50:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  And the birthday party who we took on tour with us.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  And they were so impressive. I mean, my brother and I would go out and watch them practically every night. We did like 20 dates with them. And just be blown away. They were much better than Bad House at that time.

• 51:16Billy Corgan?

  I would beg to differ.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  I felt they should have been headlining. They're just so exciting, just so.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  It was wild and abandoned, but and, and just sort of, and talk about atonal and.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  But they would all, if they went veered off wildly to the left, they'd all do it.

• 51:36Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  And then veer off back to the right, they'd all do it. And it would just be, it'd be either like this machine, you know? Yeah, very impressive. But they were, they were such a little gang all to themselves.

• 51:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, I definitely got that vibe.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:53Billy Corgan?

  So how ambitious was the band? Like, because with anything that's artistically rooted, at some point, the reality of the record business is staring in front of you. You know, do you work with the big producer? Do you sell out? You know what I mean?

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:09Billy Corgan?

  How ambitious was the band?

• 52:11Speaker 00

  We had huge ambition, but we really wanted to do it on our own terms. And we weren't averse to

• 52:20Speaker 00

  commercial suicide.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Much to the chagrin of our record label.

• 52:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  You know?

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, we wouldn't. We wouldn't. We couldn't play that game.

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  No, it has to be authentic. That's the main thing. It's always been the main thing.

• 52:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  And that runs through everything I've done.

• 52:41Billy Corgan?

  Well, the song, All We Ever Wanted Was Everything, comes to mind, which sort of rings true within the context of the conversation.

• 52:50Billy Corgan?

  And the reason I bring it up is I performed with you guys once on stage, which was a great honor.

• 52:57Billy Corgan?

  Peter said, it might have been you. I feel like it was Peter, but said, what do you, what do you want to sing? And I said, All We Ever Wanted Was Everything. And, and it's like, you guys were like, but all of you were like, sure. We are not playing it currently, but we'll just do it.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:10Billy Corgan?

  And did it. And then, and then Peter was insistent that I sing Telegram Sam with you guys. And I kept thinking, this is a bad idea, but okay.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  No, that works.

• 53:17Billy Corgan?

  But, um,

• 53:20Billy Corgan?

  my memory of, of the gig, beyond that you guys were so gracious and nice and cool, which didn't surprise me, but it was nice to meet people that you like. And then, uh, at that time, my, my, my public vibe in Chicago was very poor, because probably because I've been running my mouth too much. So, uh,

• 53:41Billy Corgan?

  I don't remember how I was brought on stage, but when I came out on stage, I would think it was at the Riviera Theater in Chicago. I walked out on stage and the whole crowd did one of these like, oh, I hear them groaning, like, because in Chicago, the OG Goth crowd and the OG post-punk crowd was all out there and forced to see you guys. So I didn't have a lot of love from that crowd at the time. So when I walked out, there was this kind of audible groan. And I knew it was going to happen.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:07Billy Corgan?

  And the beautiful memory that I have, you were there too, but is the, the, the, the merging of my high voice with Peter's low voice and us singing together, you could have heard a pin drop. It was so beautifully like, wow, this is really working. And it was that chill that you get in the air sometimes where like you don't hear a sound. It went from groaning to absolute still quiet. And when the song ended, it was like one of those like, it even took like four seconds for people to applaud. And it was like this kind of.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:41Billy Corgan?

  Like that was some.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  It was a good choice of song.

• 54:43Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless. Well, you guys wrote it, but, but that's my enduring memory of that moment. It was, I guess what I'm saying to you personally is, is you honored me by bringing me out there, but also it was a way to say you to this crowd. Who was treating me quite poorly because I myself had made some really severe artistic choices.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:03Billy Corgan?

  And because I was going that way, as you do sometimes when you don't go against the crowd. You know, I was getting a lot of stick at home because I'd gone out in the world and been successful. Now, now I'm coming back kind of beaten down.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  And in doing that, you're embracing the essence of Bows as well.

• 55:18Billy Corgan?

  Well, God bless, but I mean, you're, you're, for lack of a better word, your public endorsement of having me up there with you was like a way of saying to all you off. You know, like if my heroes are willing to have me up here, what you think about me is you're kind of missing the mark.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:32Billy Corgan?

  You know.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  When we started, I mean, we got a lot of resistance and we really relished kicking against that. It was very inspiring. It was much better than if, you know, everybody accepted us and we'll go, they will go nuts about it straight from the off.

• 55:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  The resistance, um, you know, that's the thing that, um,

• 55:52Speaker 00

  the friction, you know, it makes the pearl in the oyster, you know what I mean?

• 55:56Billy Corgan?

  Oh yeah. What they call the sand in the oyster makes the pearl. It brings to mind when you guys did Ziggy Stardust because as the story goes, please correct me that you guys were being compared about, oh, you're ripping off, oh, so you guys were like, okay, we'll just do Ziggy Stardust.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  Oh, that was a big part of that.

• 56:10Billy Corgan?

  That's for sure. So fantastic. Yeah.

• 56:14Billy Corgan?

  If you could just talk loosely about however you want, but like we talked about T-Rex, we've talked a little bit about Bowie, we talked a little bit about Velvet Underground, but I always thought it was so cool that you guys had no problem paying tribute to your heroes. Like you, you would wrap your arms around them, no problem. Where a lot of bands try to pretend they don't have any influences. It's, it seems to be a particular condition with alternative bands. They act like they never heard of another band.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 56:38Billy Corgan?

  Or if they pick a band, it's always some band from 27 years ago.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:42Billy Corgan?

  But you guys were like fully willing to embrace.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, we wore those loves on our sleeves.

• 56:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But can you talk about that a little bit? Like, was that just something you were... Not every band has that logic, so I'm just curious for your guys' logic.

• 56:57Speaker 00

  I think it's really important to be a fan, you know, and to embrace that and to celebrate it. And to recognize it.

• 57:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  You know, and pay homage to it.

• 57:11Billy Corgan?

  What, do you know at the time when that came out, if David had any reaction at all to it? Or do you like it?

• 57:16Speaker 00

  We didn't know at the time.

• 57:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  I did, I did hear secondhand that he said, I don't, I don't know if this is apocryphal or not, that he said, I should have done it like that. I really hope that's true.

• 57:32Billy Corgan?

  Sounds about right. Sounds about right.

• 57:36Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, I had a bug on me. Only the finest on my set.

• 57:43Billy Corgan?

  Wow, the bug's really out to kill me.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Some drone, is it? From mini drone.

• 57:49Billy Corgan?

  That would be funny, right?

• 57:53Billy Corgan?

  I'd forgotten about this and then it all came, it came back to me in flash, you guys being in The Hunger movie.

• 57:58Billy Corgan?

  Did you cross paths with David on the movie? Or was it one of those things where you just got?

• 58:02Speaker 00

  No, I had a wonderful interaction with him. So this was a break during filming and they're setting it up for the next scene.

• 58:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 00

  Now, we, Bauhaus, we had this little kind of holding area that was right opposite Bowie's dressing room. And in the area, there was a jukebox. I'll whirl it, sir. And a beautiful thing stacked with forty fives, great, all great cuts, fifty, sixty, seventies. So, and it was all working. So when, um, when we could, we would play records. And I just found myself there on my, on my own. And I was gonna play a record. I'm looking at all these great singles. And I became aware of a looming presence behind me, very strong presence.

• 58:47Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  You know, and then I heard that voice. Yeah. Do you mind if I pick one? And I turned, I said, yeah, thank you, isn't it? And so he's, and now I was really intrigued to see what he played. So he looks and punches the buttons. And what he played was Grooving with Mr. Blow.

• 59:05Billy Corgan?

  I don't know that one.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  Blow. It's an instrumental from nineteen seventy. It's a great track. Uh, real up kind of beat. And he, he starts dancing in front of me, like full on. Yeah, but arms in the air, you know, and just smiling that, that smile.

• 59:23Billy Corgan?

  That ten thousand megawatts smile. Yeah.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Really. And just eye contact, you know, just, and for the whole of the song, I'm just there thinking, how surreal is this? You know, and, uh, but then I got cheeky with him.

• 59:35Billy Corgan?

  Uh oh.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  Cause I remembered, um, it's kind of like this hubris that comes from being very nervous. And that's how it came out. Um. When Low came out, I always thought that he'd cribbed the harmonica part on the track. And new career in a new town from Grooving with Mr. Blow. And I said to him, this reminds me of something. He goes, oh yeah, what? I said, it's one of, one of yours. He goes, what? Which one? I said, it's off of Low. He goes, come on, which one? I said, a new career in a new town. With that, he put his finger to his lips and winked and carried on dancing. And then when the song finished, he walks by me and just pats me on the shoulder.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  So that was wonderful, you know?

• 1:00:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Billy Corgan?

  He was something. He was something.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  He was amazing.

• 1:00:26Billy Corgan?

  I'm still trying to kind of put all those. You know, I had various encounters with him and I'm still trying to put those pieces together. Cause I think he operated at so many levels that sort of like, it's still hard to understand all of it.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know what you mean.

• 1:00:40Billy Corgan?

  Like his work is still kind of being figured out in a way.

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And what a wonderful gift he left us with that black star.

• 1:00:51Billy Corgan?

  What strikes me most about him as an artist is kind of like a Velvet Underground. He inspired so many people in so many different directions.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Billy Corgan?

  It's like he gave a whole generation of kids permission to just be whoever they wanted to be.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, really true.

• 1:01:06Billy Corgan?

  And in a way you could kind of crib from him. And you could almost pay tribute, but it almost felt like more like tribute or honoring him than like stealing.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Billy Corgan?

  You know, and he was kind of cool with that because he did it himself. So it was all part of the tradition.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:22Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:01:27Billy Corgan?

  Just walk me through, because we're kind of getting to the part where the band starts to get funky here, but She's in Parties, just amazing single. But there's this sense, and I did it from research, but Peter's sick. So he's not at the sessions as much and maybe this starts to become what becomes Love and Rock. It's like you guys kind of almost become more of a team without him. And can you just walk me through that a little bit?

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, Pete was, he was very ill in hospital with the pneumonia.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  And we had the session booked at Rockfield Studios in Marmos for that album. And we were hoping that, you know, he'd, he'd recover enough to go there.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  But I remember we paid him a visit in hospital. And now my, this is my recollection of it, is that we said to him, you know, what do you want us to do, Pete? You know? Should we hold back and wait for you? And I, I remember him giving his blessing, saying, no, go, go start it. And I'll come down and I'll, you know, do my bit when I'm ready and better. So that's what we did. Of course, we get there and we started, I mean, it was kind of like album was kind of half written, but half of it was written there and then in the studio. Which was the idea. But we were on tour at that time. So you know how it gets,

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  you know, that the time for writing becomes very precious and few and far between. So you end up with like a half written album.

• 1:03:00Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  And it was kind of exciting. The idea of writing on the spot is exciting as well. And we did do that. And we came up, Daniel came up with a song where he sang the lead vocal, A Slice of Life.

• 1:03:14Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  And I came up with a song called Who Killed Mr. Moonlight? Now, originally, I imagined Peter singing that. And I, I did like what I thought was a scratch vocal.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Because it's pretty much, it was pretty much fully formed, that song. I wrote it in the studio, but kind of there on my own. And the engineers said, you know, I think this should be the vocal. It sounds great. It's your song. So we said, okay, yeah, yeah, it works, you know. Peter can sing some, some great, you know, harmonies on the end, you know. Anyway, so this kind of stuff was going on. So when Peter finally did make it, he did not like the fact that we'd, we'd stepped in to his, what he perceived to be, and rightly enough, his position as a singer, you know.

• 1:04:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, he said, what am I gonna do on this? Play the bloody tambourine? If we do this live, I'm like, no, play the tambourine. So it created a bit of a schism there. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:04:20Billy Corgan?

  So the band seems to dissipate. Well, the band basically dissipates before the album even comes out, right? Isn't it? Is that, is that accurate?

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was falling apart in the studio.

• 1:04:30Billy Corgan?

  So what's the, just the simple version will do, but like, does something, just everybody turns around and says, that's it? I mean, because you guys kind of announced you're gonna do this last gig. And then there's like a couple of gigs and then that's it. There's no big send off or anything.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  Well, we had, we had dates booked and. And we, at this point, you know, we were playing big places now and it had gone up, you know, another tier.

• 1:04:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  And I remember we were booked to do a TV show. I can't remember the name of it, but it was a big show at the time. And we were gonna play two songs live on this show and it was a big deal and the record label really invested in us doing the show and it's another thing that's gonna jettison up our spurs.

• 1:05:15Billy Corgan?

  Going to the top.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're going to the top of most of the public. Um, and I remember we played the gig in London. Um, at the Hammersmith Palace and then we were back at the hotel and we had a huge row. I can't remember what it was about, probably nothing. And we were all in separate rooms and I remember a lot of doors being slammed. A lot of doors slamming going on down the corridors, you know, and also objects being thrown in rooms. And um, by the end of that, that night, you know, we'd made a phone call to say, we're not doing the TV show.

• 1:05:51Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:05:51Speaker 00

  And we're done.

• 1:05:53Billy Corgan?

  That's it, play the one more gig and that's it, right? Cause you had two gigs, that's at least what I saw.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, um, was that right?

• 1:06:00Billy Corgan?

  The, the, the apocryphal thing, and again, it might be, maybe it's a.

• 1:06:03Speaker 00

  No, no, I think it's just a TV show that was blown off.

• 1:06:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay, cause there's this, there's this bit, there's this bit in there where, where you were, as you're, as you're walking off stage, you say, rest in peace.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause we, we knew.

• 1:06:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  Anyway, we knew.

• 1:06:18Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I see.

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  But then it was, it was confirmed by the fracas that followed.

• 1:06:24Billy Corgan?

  So, uh.

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  We thought we were gonna do, okay, we'll just do the TV show and then see how we feel, but it never got that far.

• 1:06:31Billy Corgan?

  I see. But you, uh, I mean, you guys had only been together about four years.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Billy Corgan?

  So were you okay with it?

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  Seen like twenty.

• 1:06:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, that's how those things go, you know, like you'd look back at your itinerary, you're probably working almost every other day and, you know, it's all that stuff. It goes fast.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  It was that and just to build, this building friction. See, when the three of us were there in the studio, uh, you know, it was so, it was so easygoing. And we're having a real good time. We had this flow going and it, it just felt good, you know? And then as soon as Peter did come, I mean. It just kind of caused disruptions again.

• 1:07:13Billy Corgan?

  Do you think people were in his ear trying to do the you should go solo thing?

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  It was that as well.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Billy Corgan?

  That's usually part of it.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I remember we had, we did have a crate of champagne in the studio that had been put aside for when we finished the album. And when we did finish the album, we found out there was one bottle left. And Champagne Charlie, Mr. Murphy, had necked it. So that didn't go down well either.

• 1:07:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So before we get into Love and Rockets, because I do love Love and Rockets as well. Um, thank you for indulging me on all the Baho stuff.

• 1:07:52Billy Corgan?

  Because you've lived in this schism for so long. And the word we, I, I own a professional wrestling company and the word we use in professional wrestling is kabuki. And what kabuki means in professional wrestling is the artifice gets so out there that it no longer is, it can no longer be believed. Does it make sense the way I'm framing it?

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Billy Corgan?

  Like, it's understood professional wrestling is artifice, but if it gets too whacked out.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:08:19Billy Corgan?

  It almost becomes comical.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Billy Corgan?

  And we call that kabuki.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08:23Billy Corgan?

  So as somebody who's lived in the schism between surreality, reality, art, commerce, you know what I mean?

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:34Billy Corgan?

  How do you view that the line of pretense is maybe a better way to put it?

• 1:08:39Billy Corgan?

  It's a weird question, but I figured you would be perfectly suited because you've lived it.

• 1:08:46Billy Corgan?

  I knew, I knew early on I was jumping off of whatever artistic ship I was on because I wanted whatever gold was over the other hill. You know, I wanted what Led Zeppelin had, you know what I mean? Like, I loved art bands, but I wanted to be Led Zeppelin too, you know?

• 1:09:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  If this answers your question, I'm not sure. Um, we never felt that we betrayed desire, a quest for authenticity.

• 1:09:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  We never did that.

• 1:09:17Billy Corgan?

  No, that's what I'm saying. So it's like saying you're uniquely voiced because you never, you never did jump to that other side.

• 1:09:23Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:09:26Speaker 00

  Well, yes, I agree.

• 1:09:27Billy Corgan?

  But is there a moment where you're in a studio somewhere, you're writing a song and it's like, and I'm not saying it's the devil on your shoulder. You know what I mean?

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Oh, where we're saying, oh, hold on a minute, this is not authentic.

• 1:09:38Billy Corgan?

  Sure, or, well, if I just added this chord, you know, you know, you understand, there's, there's title forces that go on. There's a record company, there's a manager, we once shared the same manager.

• 1:09:48Speaker 00

  Yes, we did.

• 1:09:49Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, he was in my ear before I even had an album.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Billy Corgan?

  In fact, he once told me, our mutual manager, he once told me, what is with all this heavy riffing you're doing? Stick to love songs, you're really good at that. And I told him, you don't understand what's happening. I mean, I see this thing coming and we're like, we're, we're right in the middle of this thing that's coming. And he was like, but you can write pop music, like, just stick to that.

• 1:10:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, okay, well, there was one, there was one, uh, track that we recorded called Sanity Assassin. And it's a very strong track, uh, and it's kind of commercial. But without, without, um, betraying our essential authenticity at all. But again, it's going back to this whole thing of us and our perception of what is rock. And that being a bit of a dirty word back then. Cause it's just too, it's just too, um, straight, you know? And we had this track and, um, I remember Marty Mills from the record label, Beggars Bank, it came down to hear the playback. And that was on, on the, on the tape and, uh,

• 1:10:56Speaker 00

  it's actually the first thing that came up because we wanted to get it out of the way. And now here's the album, Martin. But he heard that and he said, stop tape, said, that's the single, that's the, that's, oh my God, that's the single. And so we had to break it to him that

• 1:11:11Speaker 00

  not only is it not a single, it's not going on the album, but we are gonna release it, uh, as a limited edition of 400, just for the fan club. Which is what we did, you know?

• 1:11:25Speaker 00

  Thinking back, I think that's, that was, um, not, not a good idea.

• 1:11:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  And it's, it sounds great, you know, that track. Um, I don't know if that, that, that

• 1:11:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Speaks to what you're, you're, you're asking.

• 1:11:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, I get it. It's a, it's, it's, it's just a rummage around.

• 1:11:44Billy Corgan?

  I know I said this slightly, I said this before in a slightly different way, but.

• 1:11:50Billy Corgan?

  When I was young, I was in awe of artists who lived it. So you guys were that, Joy Division was that.

• 1:12:01Billy Corgan?

  Bowie was that. And I, and I added my own intellectual overlay to that about what it meant.

• 1:12:09Billy Corgan?

  When I got into the record business, and you know, like a lot of young people do, you know, you get imposter syndrome or is like, do I belong here? My own father didn't think I could be successful. So it was like, I had inside, I had somebody in my own ear going, good luck. You're not going to make it.

• 1:12:27Billy Corgan?

  But I found over time, there's a point to this ramble is I found over time that a lot of the people I thought were purists in the game weren't purists at all. They just picked a lane that worked for them. They were never going to be pop stars, so they were going to be independents and act cool and, and wear the right T-shirt. But they're not lifers. You know what I mean? And there's plenty of examples where I could point to where it's like the band with all the integrity in the world, when as soon as the record company came calling with the right check or the right opportunity.

• 1:12:58Billy Corgan?

  Right? But you're actually somebody who lived it. So you have a new, unique perspective. So whatever you add to that perspective is interesting to me because you actually lived it. It's not a, it's not an intellectual construct for you. You, you made a decision as a young person, as did your brother, that you, that's who you were going to be. And you've been that person the entire time.

• 1:13:20Billy Corgan?

  It's not, I'm not saying it's a commitment like a nun. It's just a commitment to something you really believe in.

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:29Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, it's too much of a speech.

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  It's always been, been the case, yeah.

• 1:13:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay, so go please.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  I was gonna say that, and that continue with Love and Rockets. Big time.

• 1:13:39Billy Corgan?

  But there's a dot, dot, dot. At least on first blush, because I, I was listening from the first. It seemed that you guys were willing to embrace everything that Bauhaus didn't embrace, like catchy choruses and, I'm not saying Bauhaus didn't have catchiness, but you know what I'm saying? It seemed to be like, okay, we're going to kind of go to the other side of the planet here and, and play around in the other sandbox. There were psychedelic influences, there was a little bit more overt pop.

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Billy Corgan?

  But I didn't feel like you guys were trying to suddenly be successful. It seemed like you just made a decision, you just want to play on the other side of the kaleidoscope or something.

• 1:14:14Speaker 00

  We really wanted to be successful, but it wasn't that we.

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  That was our main, uh.

• 1:14:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  The driving factor.

• 1:14:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  Um, you mentioned psychedelia. See, Daniel and I were really into psychedelia, you know, going way back and Pete, it wasn't something that was shared with Peter. He wasn't really into that. So therefore, because a band is a democracy, that was somewhat, um, oppressed, you know, that, that, that influence. And then when Peter was not a part of this new band, that came out big time. And also it worked very well with the kind of zeitgeist at the time. There was the whole Paisley Underground happening in San Francisco, mid eighties, you know, and there was a kind of a real kind of um rediscovery of great sixties psychedelia, bands like Love, Syd Barra.

• 1:15:07Speaker 00

  And we, we loved all that stuff, you know. And it was the kind of music that Daniel and I would listen to on the cassette in the car away from Peter.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  We'd blast Dirty Pink Floyd and things like that, uh, 13th floor elevators, you know, um. So that came out big time and it was a joyous kind of like expression of that influence. And we just, we just found that we had a natural proclivity to come in, to come up with melody. We were into melody. The Beatles as well, we were into the psychedelic Beatles. And um, all of that came into play. And we had a very important component in this was uh, John A. Rivers, who was the engineer, uh, co-producer on the first two albums. And he had a studio in Limited Spa, Woodbine Studios.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  And uh, John was very much um, au fait with all of that psychedelia. And he was a great keyboard player and a great arranger. And he kind of became a fourth member of the band.

• 1:16:07Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that, yeah.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  And um. He's a very important factor in the whole progression of the band.

• 1:16:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Um, the decision to sing together a lot.

• 1:16:19Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:16:21Billy Corgan?

  You kind of sort of form this one voice.

• 1:16:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Billy Corgan?

  You know, and it reminds me when I first heard Lennon McCartney, I didn't know there were two lead singers. I just remember them singing together on Meet the Beatles when I was a kid.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:16:33Billy Corgan?

  And the sound of that.

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, whatever happens with, you know, phasing and comb filtering, but it was like, you guys made this interesting choice to sing a lot of the songs together.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was different to the Beatles in that it wasn't really harmony singing that we were doing. Although harmony, there are some harmonies.

• 1:16:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of unison, right?

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  It's, yeah, just we're seeing the same thing. So it's almost like, you know, double tracking, but two different voices.

• 1:16:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but was that a, I hate to say it was a decision, but like, how'd you arrive at that? Maybe is a better question.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  Uh, when, when we first got together to rehearse, um, we just, without talking about it, we had the, I remember the lyrics to the couple of songs that we had on the, on the wall. And we both sort of dived in to sing these lyrics and we, it wasn't sort of competitive or anything. We were both singing the lyric, but nobody backed off. And then we very quickly realized, oh, this blend, there's a blend here. It really works.

• 1:17:31Billy Corgan?

  Sound.

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  And it's very strong, you know, and we, and also I think what figures in this whole thing is that we had to, um, talking about competition, we, in a way, we had to compete with a very strong singer in Peter.

• 1:17:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well, he got out of the gates as a solo artist. He got out of the gates pretty strong.

• 1:17:48Speaker 00

  But in the band, you know, that's such a strong voice. And so we've got to follow it with, um, something that's, um, not strong in the same way, but strong in another way.

• 1:17:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:00Speaker 00

  And I think that double, that natural double tracking. Effect worked really well.

• 1:18:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Speaker 00

  In that regard.

• 1:18:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I actually saw Peter on his first solo tour. And I love Peter, so I don't mean this as criticism, but I was struck by. It's like he almost didn't know what to do. Without you guys, and I'm not saying. He was. Sorry for your absence, it's like he didn't know how to be like, let's call it the lead singer without a band. The ego version of the lead singer, like it's all about the singer, like a Tom Jones or something. It's like he didn't know, you know, he had good musicians who just kind of stood there. But they didn't have your guys' charisma and gravitas.

• 1:18:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:38Billy Corgan?

  And it was kind of a weird gig to watch because.

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  Or chemistry.

• 1:18:42Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. So he, something got lost in him not being able to bounce off you guys or something. And I remember thinking, this is odd because. He had all this momentum, there was the single that was doing really well, and it was even on MTV and.

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Billy Corgan?

  It was this kind of, he had, he had that moment out of the gates where it was like, looked like he was going to be a big. Solo star.

• 1:19:02Speaker 00

  That's all about chemistry.

• 1:19:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  Cause we, and in Love Rockets, we still had that, you know?

• 1:19:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:19:15Billy Corgan?

  How did the? How did the Bauhaus fans that you were sort of, at least the ones you knew, how did they react to Lemon Rockets? Did you? Was there anything reflexive to it? Cause it's such a different animal. To Bauhaus.

• 1:19:36Speaker 00

  Are you talking about the other bands, how they?

• 1:19:38Billy Corgan?

  No, no, I guess I'm talking about like, you know, sometimes you, you're around long enough, you know, a few fans that like what you do.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  Other fans?

• 1:19:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. Did they, did they take to Lemon Rockets or?

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, pretty much. And I think we.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  I mean, we went in a certain direction that those fans felt connected with. They were going through a personal evolution themselves to do with the times, what was going on, you know, and and it resonated with that.

• 1:20:15Billy Corgan?

  That really dovetails with my experience because I was dating somebody who was super Goth and only listened to like all the Goth.

• 1:20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:21Billy Corgan?

  And I remember she had gotten the new album, you know, the first one, Love and Rockets. And my first reaction when I put it on was I really, I really liked it and I got it. And I thought the way the guitar was more prominent and all that stuff.

• 1:20:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Billy Corgan?

  And you guys singing together, I was like, I got it right away. Like, oh, this is cool. But I remember almost looking at her thinking, like, do you like this? Because she was a total Goth purist.

• 1:20:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Billy Corgan?

  And she liked it.

• 1:20:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:20:46Billy Corgan?

  And that surprised me because I was like, I wouldn't necessarily made that intellectual leap. And I think you're right. It was like something was shifting in the culture at the time.

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54Billy Corgan?

  Like maybe, maybe the narrow definition was expanding out that there could be other ways.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  And it still had a strain of the kind of dark romanticism.

• 1:21:02Billy Corgan?

  Sure. Well, even Saw with the Cures is Robert pivoted through different styles.

• 1:21:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Billy Corgan?

  That that audience followed him.

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:21:11Billy Corgan?

  This is a over, over compression of time. I know it didn't happen like this, but the net result of this new venture was that, you know, it seemed much more voiced for America. I'm not saying that's what you were trying to do, but it seemed to catch on more in America than I was. And there was MTV and all that stuff, and it eventually led to a big song, It's So Alive.

• 1:21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Billy Corgan?

  Did you, like you said, you want to be successful, but did you have that feeling like, wow, it's actually happening? You know what I mean? Did you have that moment?

• 1:21:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was, it was a gradual.

• 1:21:46Speaker 00

  Ascent, you know, each, each album that we, well, the first of all, I mean, our first single, which was a cover, as you know.

• 1:21:53Billy Corgan?

  All confusion.

• 1:21:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, Temptations.

• 1:21:55Billy Corgan?

  Great club track, by the way.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  It was a great.

• 1:21:57Billy Corgan?

  Perfect for the clubs.

• 1:21:58Speaker 00

  It's a great club track. And we had that in mind, you know, we, we crafted it with the clubs in mind.

• 1:22:08Speaker 00

  And it did, it took off.

• 1:22:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  In, in Canada initially, we got a gold record and then very quickly after that in the States. And then we started getting offered gigs in the States. And they were decent gigs and there was an audience there. And then the first album did well and then each successive album, it went up a step, you know.

• 1:22:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  In popularity, especially in America, really. Uh, America's our place.

• 1:22:34Billy Corgan?

  Kind of funny, isn't it in a way? You know what I mean? Cause Bauhaus really had that moment in England.

• 1:22:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:40Billy Corgan?

  And then now you have this different thing, much different voice.

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  I see why though, because I mean, it does, as you alluded to just a minute ago, there is American influence in the, in the music.

• 1:22:50Billy Corgan?

  I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense. Yeah.

• 1:22:52Speaker 00

  There is, and that, that came out, um, just naturally came out.

• 1:22:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Speaker 00

  And so it all connects.

• 1:23:00Billy Corgan?

  So jumping forward to our time with the mutual manager.

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:05Billy Corgan?

  Raimi Koffer was his name, uh, is his name.

• 1:23:09Billy Corgan?

  I think we started with him right around the time that So Alive was peaking as a hit.

• 1:23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:14Billy Corgan?

  And of course he used that as a calling card, like, look, I took them to the top. You know what I mean? But I, I went and looked up the, the statistics because I remember him bragging it was number one. It was modern one, number one modern rock.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:23:26Billy Corgan?

  But he, I think he told us it was number one in the world. As only your manager would. But I was, I was, I was happily surprised to see it was number 14 Billboard. So that's quite something. You know what I mean? Considering the American charts at the time.

• 1:23:40Speaker 00

  Um, and that was number three in the.

• 1:23:43Billy Corgan?

  Maybe maybe my card is.

• 1:23:45Speaker 00

  Like the pro- the proper charts.

• 1:23:47Billy Corgan?

  The proper charts.

• 1:23:48Speaker 00

  Proper charts.

• 1:23:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I'm probably wrong. I know it was a big record. Let's put it that way.

• 1:23:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, I still I stand as one of those things because it was so big. I still hear it like you're in a restaurant and there it is.

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  I know. Yeah, though you asked about moments. There was a particular moment, um, I recall, uh, where we were, we had a tour set up in eighty nine. When that was, it was on the radio and we got to New York and we got in a cab, three of us. And the cab driver recognized us and started singing so alive. And this is a guy, you know, like in his fifties, you know, like a Bruce kind of New York cabby, you know, I know you guys. Yeah, on the radio and he starts singing so alive. That's when we knew.

• 1:24:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:29Speaker 00

  This wouldn't have happened like last year.

• 1:24:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the moment. Um.

• 1:24:39Billy Corgan?

  Do you feel that because Bauhaus, of course, the myth has grown over time and there's been various reunions. Do you feel that people in this point in time totally understand Love and Rockets? Or you feel that that's that gets a little lost in translation?

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  Well, there are many aspects to that band. Um, and I think on some occasions we were a little bit ahead of our time. And it wasn't understood at the time when we went into more electronica.

• 1:25:09Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:25:09Speaker 00

  Influenced music like Hot Trip to Heaven, which was early nineties, you know, and the last album Lift was very electronic. And I think both of those records were somewhat ahead of the the game there. And also the the album. Um, the interim album, um, Sweet FA, which was kind of like a mix of electronic and and guitars.

• 1:25:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:32Speaker 00

  Distorted guitars and.

• 1:25:35Speaker 00

  I I really hear like the influence of that or certainly bands that that coming out now that's sound, you know.

• 1:25:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:43Speaker 00

  Like that. So um, I think it's, I think it's being, I think the reputation of Love and Rockets is gradually growing.

• 1:25:54Billy Corgan?

  That's good to hear.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  All the time. And I get really good positive feedback more and more.

• 1:25:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I saw that you you did the the, there's like a, not a remix, but like the sessions from the the Sweet FA album, you did like a, I don't know what you call it. It's a remix is not the right word. It's like a revisiting the sessions or.

• 1:26:12Speaker 00

  Well, there was a, there was a, that was never out on vinyl and it really works on vinyl, that record. Some, some records work better on vinyl than others. And that one is one of those. And we just added outtakes.

• 1:26:25Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  It's a double.

• 1:26:26Billy Corgan?

  Who owns the rights to the to the Sweet FA album, do you know? Is it, is it Rick Rubin's world?

• 1:26:32Speaker 00

  No. It's it's beggars.

• 1:26:34Billy Corgan?

  Oh, it's beggars?

• 1:26:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Billy Corgan?

  And they've never, they've never put it on vinyl?

• 1:26:38Speaker 00

  Uh, not until recently.

• 1:26:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, but it is.

• 1:26:41Speaker 00

  Originally, it was on American Recordings.

• 1:26:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought.

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  Rick Rubin, yeah. But now, um, it was released as part of a box set as well.

• 1:26:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:26:49Speaker 00

  Um, vinyl, very nice, very good quality.

• 1:26:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, very good.

• 1:26:55Speaker 00

  Hundred and eighty gram. I mean, like, the quality of vinyl these days is so great.

• 1:27:00Billy Corgan?

  I was asking because we have our own imprint that we do, so.

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27:03Billy Corgan?

  I was fishing. I was fishing. Um, so take this how you want. Um, it's, it's a bit self-serving, but you can ignore that part of it. But like managing the myth, you know what I mean? As a fan, like, you know, there aren't enough great hyperbolic words you can use to describe, uh, you know, both bands, Bauhaus and Love and Rockets. I love them both. I learned something from both. I got something from both. I stole something from both. But, you know, not, the general public doesn't always understand these things. Um, but over time, you know, this other thing happens. If if the music survives, which it, which it will, of course, and is, a mythology starts to creep in. You know what I mean?

• 1:27:48Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, part of, uh, the success of that is managing the mythology. How do you feel about managing the mythology of something like that? Is that too esoteric a question?

• 1:28:01Speaker 00

  Not at all.

• 1:28:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:05Speaker 00

  We're very conscious of that and we're very,

• 1:28:10Speaker 00

  we guard it and we curate it and we nurture it and and we have a very good, you know, it's great that we have a good relationship with the label in that we're always consulted on anything that's released. And we're very, very picky in that regard. So it's kept in check.

• 1:28:36Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Billy Corgan?

  Do you feel that the, in particular, the Bauhaus reunions, do you feel they've sort of

• 1:28:48Billy Corgan?

  given later generations of fans the right glimpse of the band? Or do you feel like it hasn't quite? I'm just curious for your thoughts on that in reflection.

• 1:28:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think very positive. And the last time we were out,

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  I think maybe that was the absolute height of the band. I think when we played, we played here in L A at the Cruel World Festival. I think those two gigs were in some ways like the absolute apex, like it was just.

• 1:29:20Billy Corgan?

  Well, in many ways, the band's never been bigger, at least.

• 1:29:22Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:29:23Billy Corgan?

  When we saw about Bauhaus.

• 1:29:24Speaker 00

  Just as far like as a presentation and the way we were playing.

• 1:29:30Speaker 00

  And still it had the same kind of in intensity and edge.

• 1:29:36Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:37Speaker 00

  All intact.

• 1:29:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  Nothing, nothing of that lost. And I'm very proud of that.

• 1:29:44Billy Corgan?

  When you, when you guys split from Peter, you know, he went one direction, whether like, I'm not asking what was the negotiation for peace, but what, what peace needed to be made so that you guys could still make music together?

• 1:29:57Billy Corgan?

  Or is it just time?

• 1:29:59Speaker 00

  Um, I think a factor in that is that I had gone on the road with Peter.

• 1:30:06Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, the Ruby tour, which is the 40th anniversary of the first album in the flat field. And we did a lot of dates all over the world. He asked me to come and be a part of that. And it just, and his entreaty reached me at the right time.

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  Mind you, I had to put the money up quite a bit, but I did. And I came on board and it was a great band. Mark Gemini's way on guitar, Mark's luck ski on good drums, a great drummer. And um, we, that was very successful. And from that, um, we were offered um, three, three nights here at the Palladium in L A.

• 1:30:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, not a small gig.

• 1:30:53Speaker 00

  No, it's the night, the, the full band.

• 1:30:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Oh, the full band. Okay.

• 1:30:58Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. With Daniel and Kevin.

• 1:31:00Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 00

  And everybody was just in a kind of receptive mindset. But I think our tour that I'd done with Peter paved the way for that.

• 1:31:09Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:31:10Speaker 00

  And it was kind of a, it was a nice kind of easing.

• 1:31:13Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:31:13Speaker 00

  For me, and they'd seen me out on the road with him and seeing that.

• 1:31:18Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:31:18Speaker 00

  Got through it. So it all just kind of panned out and then, and then, and we were going to carry on, you know, and do a lot of gigs. And we were like, you know, we're going to play Radio City, New York, really nice venues. And of course, COVID.

• 1:31:33Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 1:31:35Speaker 00

  Um, so it was scuppered until, you know, we finally.

• 1:31:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41Speaker 00

  Came out.

• 1:31:44Billy Corgan?

  I typed into Chat G P T or one of those things, how many solo albums you made? And it said.

• 1:31:51Billy Corgan?

  Eleven to fifteen. I don't know what that means.

• 1:31:54Speaker 00

  It's probably double that.

• 1:31:56Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 1:31:56Speaker 00

  If you include collaborations.

• 1:31:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:03Billy Corgan?

  You've always put out a lot of solo work, so I was curious about that. Because in my situation, you know, when you don't have the name, you know, it just, the interest in the work goes down. It's, I don't know what that is. It's just the way things work, marketing. So obviously, when you go out as just yourself, or I go just myself, you know, you know, before you begin that you're navigating a different sort of field.

• 1:32:26Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:32:27Billy Corgan?

  What has it been about making so much solo music that's kind of kept you focused? It's just the, is it the act of doing it, the joy of doing it, like?

• 1:32:38Billy Corgan?

  I know it's a weird question to ask. It seems self-evident as I ask it, but I want to hear it from you.

• 1:32:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's just the imperative that comes from wanting to create and

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  it's nothing to do with, I mean, my audience is like you say, it's very niche, like super niche. And it's very limited, but they, they, they're very appreciative and diehard. And it's a real listening audience and they're attuned to nuance and subtlety. And I have that audience in mind when I'm going, when I'm in studio recording. I do it in the back of my head. I have that audience.

• 1:33:24Speaker 00

  And I know they're out there and it doesn't matter that it's kind of small compared to the bands.

• 1:33:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and it's not about small or big. It's just, it's just about, I guess, what strikes me is doing work that you feel good about and you believe in, but before you even sort of press play, you know that the audience is limited just because of the way the world works.

• 1:33:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:43Billy Corgan?

  I mean, yeah, I think as you get older, at least it has been for me, it's harder sometimes to surmount the courage or the energy.

• 1:33:51Billy Corgan?

  Because if you just called it something else, just a bigger audience shows up, has nothing to do with quality, just because it's what's it, what's the old saying, what's in a name?

• 1:33:59Speaker 00

  Uh huh. But I am just, I mean, essentially doing it for myself. I can't do anything about it. It's just, you know, I'm compelled to create all the time.

• 1:34:10Billy Corgan?

  I did see the, I feel like it was an infamous tour, but it was the one where you just guys played under light bulbs.

• 1:34:16Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:34:17Billy Corgan?

  I saw that tour.

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Oh, you did? Okay. In Chicago?

• 1:34:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Speaker 00

  All right. Yeah. That was with Max Ida. He's now left us very sadly. And, and Owen Jones from Jazz Butcher Group.

• 1:34:32Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay.

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. I love doing that tour. Yeah. Very stripped down again.

• 1:34:37Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 1:34:41Billy Corgan?

  Have not read the book. I need to. I have a copy. I just haven't read it. Um, how's the response been to the book?

• 1:34:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's been very positive, actually. Yeah. And some, I just heard it sold out, our second edition sold out, which is actually a third edition because they slipped out a little secret second edition. So, um, it's done well. Yeah, that book.

• 1:35:04Billy Corgan?

  I need to read this book.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  And again, that, I was compelled to write that book, to tell the story. It's nothing to do with like making money or anything like that. It's just, I have to tell the story.

• 1:35:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:17Billy Corgan?

  The word I would use is, it's a terrible word, but lifer. It's of course, she refers to people stuck in jail for their life. But I, I think certain musicians are lifers and you're a lifer. You know what I mean? You're like, you're in it. You're in it. Yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 00

  I saw you.

• 1:35:31Billy Corgan?

  Well, it seems at this point, yeah. I've had many years where I really doubted my sanity. Um, finally, and, and I just, I honestly, I do it out of kind of a mutual love, I think. But I, I was surprised to see it. I'd forgotten that you guys were part of the apocryphal bill where Jane's Addiction imploded on stage. Um, in fact, the last time I saw Daniel was when he was doing some, he was kind of guesting with Jane's Addiction.

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:01Billy Corgan?

  Some tour we were on together.

• 1:36:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:03Billy Corgan?

  And he was, he was, he was around. My, I, I tried to tell him this story and I'll tell it to you because maybe you'll think it's funny. He, he didn't think it was that funny.

• 1:36:13Billy Corgan?

  We played a gig in 1991 in England. It was kind of our, you know, everyone was going to be their gig.

• 1:36:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:19Billy Corgan?

  You know, Nirvana was there, Biblee Valentine was there, was one of those gigs and, and Daniel was there.

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:36:25Billy Corgan?

  And my enduring memory of, all these luminaries are in the dressing room. You know what I mean? Everybody like, it's like a Who's Who of 90's grunge and alt.

• 1:36:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:33Billy Corgan?

  And, and, and, and Daniel's there with this French model. And, you know, we're young, so we're, we're, we're talking her as much as we're talking to him. I don't know. It's just, it's our dressing room. And, and we say, you know, we're trying to be polite, like, well, how do you, how do you know? How do you, we're, we're like in awe of Daniel. We used to, you know, it's Daniel Ash, you know? And, and, and she goes like this.

• 1:36:57Billy Corgan?

  I don't know how I ended up with this monster.

• 1:37:01Billy Corgan?

  And I tried to tell him that story a couple of years ago and he just kind of looked at me like. It didn't, it didn't land.

• 1:37:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know you're talking about as well.

• 1:37:08Billy Corgan?

  I was like, you don't remember the French model? And he was like. Yeah, I think her name was Veronica. You know, it's like that is, that's his memory. So.

• 1:37:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:16Billy Corgan?

  Rockstar problems. He can only, he can kind of remember the French model.

• 1:37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's highly amusing.

• 1:37:21Billy Corgan?

  Anyway, thank you so much. Great talking to you.

• 1:37:22Speaker 00

  Thank you, Billy. It's been great.