Hermes Historia: Giorgos the Oikist, Colonization in Greek Antiquity

Michaela teaches Liv about 6th century Greek colonization for not at all relevant reasons. Submit to the quarterly Q&A at mythsbaby.com/questions http://mythsbaby.com/questions and get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Sources: Greek Colonisation: An Account of Greek Colonies and Other Settlements Overseas Vol. 1 and 2, edited by Gocha R. Tsetskhladze; Colony and Mother City in Ancient Greece by A. J. Graham. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

• 0:35Speaker 01

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• 1:40Liv Albert?

  Let's do this. Okay.

• 1:44Liv Albert?

  I guess I introduce it. Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I am your host, Liv. And this is weird because Michaela's here. And normally I sing alone. Hi, Michaela. Hi.

• 2:03Liv Albert?

  Once again, we are getting used to this whole Hermes Historia thing. Uh, but officially, I think as of this one, it's no longer free. So if you are listening to Hermes Historia now, thank you so much for giving us a little bit of your money. Um, it helps this show keep going because

• 2:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:23Liv Albert?

  Um, spoilers, there's lots of changes coming. I'm like, money's really uncertain, so thank you. And here we are to give you some fun historical content. Um, and by we, I mean, Michaela has done all of the work. Take it away, Michaela.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Hi. Uh, so today feels, uh, this is, this topic was supposed to be for like, November, but it's coming now. So, uh, and it feels even more just constantly, um,

• 2:51Liv Albert?

  Do you think there was something that was going on in November that is now relevant again and worse in January?

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Yay. Shoot me. Uh, so this one is, uh,

• 3:02Liv Albert?

  I'm gonna tell the listeners just right now, just for a real quick reference of just when we're recording this. So I just need you all to know that we're recording this on Thursday, July 23rd, and we had to begin our conversation. January, July. January 23rd, and we had to begin our conversation by saying to each other, like, So you, you saw what he did? Yeah, yes, I, I saw what he did.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  Uh huh. Uh huh. And, uh, my heart hurts. Oh, God.

• 3:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah. So anyway, we're feeling great and we're gonna try to la- laugh through some of it and talk about not at all relevant historical moments, right?

• 3:44Speaker 03

  It's gonna be something like that. For, for example, today, we're gonna talk about colonization.

• 3:49Liv Albert?

  Oh.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  And the way the Greeks did it in, uh, the seventh century, uh, because it's a little, um,

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Different.

• 4:00Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Uh, but still very, uh, prescient, I believe.

• 4:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Well, yeah.

• 4:06Liv Albert?

  Colonization.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  You know, in, uh, in modernity, it's a, it's a very heavy word and we have a lot of associations with, um, colonization, what it looks like and what it is. And, uh, when we think of it, we often think of, you know, Britain, uh, generally Western Europe, uh, Japanese colonization, um, others. I will not.

• 4:35Liv Albert?

  There's.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  You can.

• 4:36Liv Albert?

  That you know, there's some, the, the term settler colonial has been in the news.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  Why did I choose to do this?

• 4:49Speaker 03

  It's fine.

• 4:49Liv Albert?

  Oh, I'm sorry. You're experiencing so much of what I still am not used to about.

• 4:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:55Liv Albert?

  You have to talk about it because it's relevant in your, your history brain is like, you have to know this.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:02Liv Albert?

  Also.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 5:03Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it takes.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  It hurts. And, and the thing with the ancient Med, which, um, you know, I'm, I'm obsessed with and talk about a lot is that it's always been extremely connected. And people always have been moving around. So, um, colonization is not necessarily in the ancient context about empire building. It, it does become that. Hello, fifth century Athens. That is exactly what is happening there. But is it fair to say that that is the same thing that is happening in seventh century Greece? Where the idea is about power building for certain states?

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Is it more that we could think of colonization as just merely people moving? And.

• 5:52Liv Albert?

  Colonization in the, the seventh century.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:55Liv Albert?

  More about, yeah, yeah. More about growing power rather than empire building, but also that sounds like the same thing to me. So I want to know more.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, no, not quite growing power. I think the thing is you have to be aware of, uh, the geography of Greece. Um, which is, Greece is a very, like still is and was in antiquity, a very resource poor land. Um, so as populations grow, you need ways to support the population. And when your land is not up to the task, the easiest thing is to. Kick population out, which is what we will see. Um, so a lot of the times um when in the seventh century, the Greeks were moving. It wasn't necessarily, let's get more power. I mean, like, yes and no. There's a lot of different ways to look at it, but it was also.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  We have more people than we can support, so we're just gonna um kick those people out.

• 6:52Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  And they can go off and find ways to support themselves.

• 6:56Liv Albert?

  Oh, so that you so you're saying the the colonization was more about like the people who were kicked out because of the space, then just went on to find their own. Space, basically. And so there's still obviously going to be violence attached, but but it's, yeah, yeah, less, less, that makes sense. So it's less about like. Because when it came to later in Athens.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:18Liv Albert?

  Then it was.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Growing Athenian powers.

• 7:20Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. And like hedge money and like, just like, are we the biggest and most powerful? Can we crush all of our enemies?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, so very empire building versus, we can't support these people, so just kick them out.

• 7:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and then those people end up going on to create a colony.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like Greek colonies um compared to like Roman colonies, in my mind, this is how I see it at least, Roman colonies were about. Gaining land and gaining power for Rome. It was still very connected and um Greek colonies were in a way still connected to their mother city. But they often were like, we're gonna go and make a little city and this is gonna be our city and leave us alone. Like.

• 7:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Things still happened. Absolutely. It's colonization. They are moving um native populations out of the land so they can have the land. Um, but it's not quite so. Let's make more power for Athens specifically.

• 8:11Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  Sparta specifically.

• 8:13Liv Albert?

  And they were building their own, like, and maybe you'll get into this, but I think of Sicily as sort of the. The big like Magna Greca, the the big kind of Greek colony that. Uh, but kind of became its entire own thing. And so they end up getting their own, it's not, yeah, like you're saying, it's not about growing necessarily the power of the mother city. There's still all of the violence involved with the actual call act of colonization. But very different than the intention being to like killer enslave everyone and just grow that overarching like imperial boot.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly. So that's how like the original Greek colonization kind of started. You know, it's not until fifth century that Athens is trying to reach for power and they do horrible things like massacre entire populations. Um, so.

• 9:05Liv Albert?

  Which originally, uh, this is recorded after I just on Monday decided that was the only thing I could talk about.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 9:11Liv Albert?

  So that worked out very well. So the, you're referring to the Melian.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, the Mylesian, yeah, the C, the Siege of Mylos. Um, and then there was the, the Melian one, which was where they did it. They almost did, and then they sent ships.

• 9:26Liv Albert?

  No, you mean Mittalini.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Mittalini? Yeah.

• 9:28Liv Albert?

  Mittal, Melian is Mylos, just in a different form.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 9:33Liv Albert?

  You're just mixing them up because they're both Ms. And they're both atrocities. You can read, you can say it again if you want the Mittalini debate.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  Nah, it's fine. I am a fallible human being. I make mistakes. So a lot of colonization has to do with the emergence of the polis, which is the city-states in Greece.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  All across Greece, independent cities with their own religious practices, constitutions, forms of governments, governance were popping up. Because the thing to remember about Greece is that in antiquity, it was never unified. So it is looking at little city-states that control sort of their own little land around them.

• 10:12Liv Albert?

  They're not, they're not answering to a bigger.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:14Liv Albert?

  Empire. They're just like forming their own forms of governance for that one specific little region.

• 10:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. So that's why we, that's the, the thing that can be kind of, I think, hard to understand and grasp is comparing. The way to compare it is like, you know, with Rome, it was all answering to Rome.

• 10:32Liv Albert?

  All roads lead to Rome.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. In Greece, it was Attica answered to Athens, the Peloponnese entered to Sparta, the, you know.

• 10:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah, regional powers.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  Regional powers.

• 10:44Liv Albert?

  Still quite separate. Yeah. Especially when you take into account the islands, like we're talking about Melios. The Melian siege, like the, we're talking about islands that are very far off from the mainland.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 10:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah, like they're very, you know, isolated in their own way. So they, it's not even a practical thing where they would have like a more concentrated power structure.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  Exactly. Um, and then each little state kind of had their own forms of government and governance and how whatever works best for them. As well as they've had their own like religious practices, like they kind of have a shared religious belief, but they all went about it in their own little ways.

• 11:21Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. And different languages and dialects and stuff too. I think just to really hammer home, like just how independent and separate they often were. Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's why like, um, me with my Greek learning, it's, it's a very, I, I mean, I think I'm better at Greek than Latin. But the one thing I always complain about, I'm like, why is this different than this? And one of my professors, I remember her being like, well, Latin is the way it is because of the Rome of it all.

• 11:44Liv Albert?

  Like it is. It was one unified language.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 11:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  While Greece didn't have that.

• 11:51Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  There was no center.

• 11:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  Um, so this really affects the way colonization works because it is not a unified group of people expanding their networks. Um, each polis was setting out settlements of their own and for their own purposes. And the relationship between the mother city and the colony, um, were.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  Generally that was what the important tie was, but usually it wasn't in the sense that the mother city ran the, the colony.

• 12:21Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  There's a like, it's like a familial relation in a way. It's like we came.

• 12:25Liv Albert?

  Ex-pats. Like that notion of expats versus immigrant, which.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 12:30Liv Albert?

  Sorry, guys. White people, they're all immigrants. You can't just call them expats and suggest they're not immigrants.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  They're still an immigrant.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  Um, there are some instances though, where the colony wasn't too connected with its starting city. Which is interesting. So.

• 12:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I don't even know many of the like mother cities to these colonies because I feel like I've often learned them as like separate.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:53Liv Albert?

  Holes.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, cuz they generally were like that. That's kind of how it was. Um, so I want to go over quickly the language used for colonies cuz. I like language. Um, and also.

• 13:06Liv Albert?

  I don't, I don't care for it.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  It's, I mean, it's caused problems all by itself. Um, but it also helps us to understand the purpose for the colonies and why they were sent out in the first place. Um, so the general word for colonies in Greeks was a poria. Uh, it's a very general term. It doesn't really clarify anything about the purpose of the colony. It's simply a statement of, of fact, you know, there's a poria. And then there's the corresponding polis that goes along with it. Um, another word for a colony was an emporion. Um, and in this case, it is more of a, uh, a trade and commercialization.

• 13:45Liv Albert?

  Like an emporium, like the same word? Okay, great. Love it. Love me some terminology.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, so you're, you could send out, um. An emporion and that is where you would conduct economic activities. It would help to benefit the mother city more because she is getting economic power from it. Um, a city could have its own emporion that was attached to it, or it could have an emporion close by that would be under its umbrella. So for example, a polis could set up an a poria somewhere and nearby the settlement, they could make another city that was an emporion. That would serve as the trading post for that settlement.

• 14:22Liv Albert?

  How, sorry, how much evidence do we have for the violence that would have go along with the colonization? Like, do we have much of them? Recording like we had to do this damage to the native people at all, or would they tend to ignore that in whatever survives?

• 14:42Speaker 03

  Trying to wake up my brain.

• 14:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah, also you can.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Two, three months ago.

• 14:45Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  I, I would expect there to be some.

• 14:48Liv Albert?

  Me too, yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  How Greeks, uh, ancient Greeks talked about people who were non-Greeks. I would absolutely expect there to be.

• 14:56Liv Albert?

  So true. They're not just like letting the barbarians chill.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Exactly. Um, but I, off the top of my head, I can't think of anything.

• 15:03Liv Albert?

  Yeah, fair. It's also like, we don't have the ti- same type of history from that time period as we do from later. So, yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  Um, so an emporion could also exist on its own by itself on the land. Um, and did not need a nearby city to govern it. So it, it is.

• 15:22Liv Albert?

  Did people live there or was it like, okay, so it's kind of like a town itself.

• 15:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's just main purpose was commercial versus an aporkias purpose was people to go live.

• 15:32Liv Albert?

  Right. It sounds like that's just like most of North American modern colonization.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  It, but an emporion also emphasizes that there is a relationship with the founding city.

• 15:47Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  So, um, and the last type of colony I want to bring up is a more obvious to fifth century Athens, and that's a clerarchy. So this is, this is more like modern colonization. So these are clearly, um, people who clerikies when they were set up, if you lived there, born in there, whatever, the people who were sent there, they still had Athenian citizenship. So there is a dividing thing, you know, if a, a porchia setup, they might not necessarily have like even citizenship. They would have citizenship to that place.

• 16:21Liv Albert?

  That's so Rome for Athens to be like, like it's just, uh, Athenian citizenship.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yep, yep. So, um, it is very clearly Athenian city, Athenian citizens living abroad, making their own cities on other soil and governing themselves clearly as if they were still in Athens. Um, so they would identify themselves. They identified themselves as Athenians living in X place and can be viewed as an extension of Athenian power. Um, so they're very different from aporkias and aporeons, um, as though not merely colonies, um, but they are thought out and direct action in order to extend Athenian power. Yeah. This is, this is where that difference comes. And it's a big one. It is a huge thing. Yeah.

• 17:20Liv Albert?

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• 19:52Liv Albert?

  Now, okay. Question, etymological question.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 19:57Liv Albert?

  Emporion.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 19:59Liv Albert?

  Is that coming, like, is empire coming from that? Or is it totally unrelated and sounds really similar? Do you know? And we can Google.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  We can go to, my favorite website for everyone out there. Etym online, E-T-Y-M online. It's how you can get lovely little.

• 20:17Liv Albert?

  I fucking love etymology.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Yep, etymology things. So let's see. Empire, uh, territory subject to an emperor's rule in general realm dominion.

• 20:27Liv Albert?

  But where, then where's empire coming from?

• 20:29Speaker 03

  From old French empire, from Latin imperium, which is ruler, command, authority, control, power, supreme power.

• 20:35Liv Albert?

  It's gotta be coming from Greek.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  Soul dominion, military authority, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. From imperare, meaning to command. From in and parare, which is parare is to like prepare to order.

• 20:47Liv Albert?

  Okay, okay.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  Um.

• 20:49Liv Albert?

  So it sounds like it's maybe not at all connected and just hella Latin.

• 20:55Liv Albert?

  I feel like sometimes there are just like coincidental things like that.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  Oh, well, yeah, because it's all, it's all, um, uh. Indo-European roots and like Greek and Latin are both Indo-European and Latin borrows a lot from Greece.

• 21:11Liv Albert?

  Well, exactly, but then some, yeah, no, that's the thing. I'm always interested in where Latin takes from Greek.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'd look up, I look it up on the Oxford dictionary because they have really good um etymology as well, but I don't want to do that right now.

• 21:24Liv Albert?

  We don't, we shouldn't.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  It's a very, um, it's a very Latin word. I will say that Latin in concept because I think as much as uh Greece really tried. Of Greece, as much as Athens really tried to empire, um, it was, it was more of a really cute adorable little attempt. Compared to Rome.

• 21:46Liv Albert?

  And even Big Al.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  Alex the OK, we love him, did his best.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  What can you do? Honestly, that's so fair. Did you ever, okay. My ex said this to me one time and it stuck with me, um, but it took the Beatles half the amount of time it took Alex. The OK to take over the world. Yeah, that's kind of impressive.

• 22:13Liv Albert?

  Because you know, they weren't doing it with the same uh violence and I think that made it a little faster.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  They, all you need is love, man.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Okay, so yeah, we still see um in any colony, there is still a s- a sense of a connection with the mother city. Not necessarily in the direct way that it is in clerkeys or in the commercial way as it is with emporions. But one of the ways we see this connection is there was a practice of bringing fire from the main hearth of the mother city. To start the new colonies hearth, so you know.

• 22:47Liv Albert?

  Beautiful.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, they would likely follow the same religious calendar and we can find. Similarities between mother cities and colonies in their festivals. They will also, there was also an expectation that whatever conflicts or wars, wars the colony got into, the mother city would come to their aid.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  But.

• 23:10Liv Albert?

  Oh, okay. So but it, does it go both ways though?

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's be honest. Yeah, but I think it's not as stringent as it was with the clerkeys. Where I, like hypothetically, a colony could be like, no.

• 23:23Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  And it might not go well for them, but.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  There is a level of removal in um these colonies. Okay, so if we are, what is the purposes of these colonies then? So why would a Polus want to send out a colony in the first place? Um, and this is why the different types are important. So if we understand colonies to all be connected to their mother city in some sense, then we know that there must be some sort of benefit for the mother city to partake in this practice in the first place. So an Emporion's function is pretty self-explanatory. It allows the extension of trade and commercial business. But then is it fair to say that the purpose of a colony was always for some sort of financial gain?

• 24:03Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  Um, as it turns out, no. And this is, this is really what I find really interesting about this type of colonization, because it is very different and weird. And it's, it's almost like there's a part of me that doesn't feel comfortable using the word colonization, because I think colonization has implications along with it, that I don't know if it's quite the same.

• 24:22Liv Albert?

  Um, yeah, no, I agree. Well, also, it's at this time when like, I mean, it's such a

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Population is booming.

• 24:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  Then like

• 24:31Liv Albert?

  And it's the Mediterranean where things are so interconnected already. And, and given there isn't this like violent grasp for

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:41Liv Albert?

  Power at any cost, like it does feel so different. But yeah, it's like, it's hard because it's like, that's because of what we are looking at now.

• 24:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's a nuanced conversation, you know, like

• 24:51Liv Albert?

  Absolutely.

• 24:51Speaker 03

  It, it's a little bit harder to talk about this type of colonization, and specifically the Apoikias, than it is to look at more modern colonization, because it has two different purposes. And doesn't still have negative effects? Of course, it's just, that comes along with the territory. But is it as insidious or as, um,

• 25:12Speaker 03

  words escape me.

• 25:13Liv Albert?

  I mean, insidious is so right, though. Insidious is so right, because like the thing about the type of colonization that we're faced with now and that we're faced with over the last few centuries, like, it is, it is, no, you know, it, it reminds me of, well, maybe that's not right, but it, it, okay, I'm saying this so poorly, but it is just like the, what we've had over the last few centuries is so based in like, to me, it's like, they, they had knowledge of what they were doing, and that's what feels so different. Like, they knew that they were going to go and kill people that they didn't see as people and dehumanize these people purely for their own gain and profit in a way where the Atheni-

• 25:54Liv Albert?

  like, not the Athenians, but the Greeks in this time period, sound like it's more about Like the, the more human needs of growth and movement and change versus this like, we are going to go and stamp you out because you pose a threat or all of these, or you ju- we just like want this power, whatever.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Because then it's, if we think of colonization as just as this like, um, or like this kind of activity as a negative thing, well then how do we explain things like the Neolithic movement of people where, um, like the reason Greece started having this agricultural, um, revolution is because people from the Near East were moving into Greece. Well, do we call that colonization is, or is that just people naturally?

• 26:38Liv Albert?

  Migration.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Exactly. And that's kind of how I feel. Like it's, I, I, it's complicated.

• 26:43Liv Albert?

  Well, and that's why I asked about the violence, like what, what record we have of like, you know, whether they were going and committing genocide. Cause that's so different than if they were going and they were like, just like kind of building a city where somebody else had already had one, but like incorporating them. Like it's still bad, but it's not genocide, you know?

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Exactly. It wasn't for the purpose of, um, stamping other people down as much as expansion because they can't take care of their people.

• 27:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  Like there, there is a, there is a removal. Still not good, but different.

• 27:14Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. So.

• 27:16Liv Albert?

  And easier to stomach.

• 27:17Speaker 03

  Yes. Easier to stomach. Definitely. Uh, and so like I was mentioning earlier, um, the Greek mainland is, is not agriculturally rich. It is, it's not of the best quality to support growing populations.

• 27:32Liv Albert?

  They can grow olives pretty great.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. You can't survive off of just olives.

• 27:37Liv Albert?

  I mean, I'm, I don't know.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  And this is what screwed Athens, right?

• 27:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Cause like Athens went at the end of the Peloponnesian war when they were basically being besieged by Sparta and they were all stuck inside their city. But they still had the ports because of the long walls, um, to the Praia. Um, they were still able to get, uh, food because they got all their food from the Black Sea region and it was sailed in. And then Sparta went and they cut off that trade route. And now they're just starving the city out.

• 28:06Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  That's just kind of. It's a, it's very just of the landly. It's just not agriculturally rich. It's unfortunate. Places are like that. So like at some point, like I was saying, the amount of people that the land could support is surpassed by the amount of people that are living on the land. And so what are they gonna do? And they can't easily get enough imports in order to provide for this growing population. Then they're left in a tricky place. Uh, people aren't fed, people aren't dying. There could be civil unrest. So what they do then is they need to lower the amount of people that they are supporting on that land or get more land. And this is the main purpose of Apoikas. Um, it just essentially is send people out of the city. It's lowering the population of the mother city.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  Um, and so that's lowering the obligation of the mother city to take care of certain of an amount of people. And this is, I, I find this so interesting. It, it, there is an aspect of gaining more land. Yes, you're gaining more land. But the, the tie between colonies and mother city is, is not so.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  It like, they're sending people out and they're like, okay, you go handle it now. You go figure it out. You make your city. You support yourselves. So there isn't, the obligation isn't there. It's like they raised their babies and they've kicked them out of the nest. Go make your own nest. Go make your own place. Has that vibe to it. It helps to explain though the connection between the mother city and the colony. The colony views the mother city as their place of origin. Um, but there is still a distinction between the two. They come from this area, but they are not of this area anymore. So, um, there is that distinction between clerikies and Apoikas. A clerarchy is still an extension of Athenian power. One of Porcas, no, that's where we're from. This is where we are now.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  It's an expat.

• 29:59Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  So, how do these colonies start? It all starts with the decision. We need to get some people the fuck out of here. Uh, there's too much, we need a break. However, we do need someone who can lead this new group of people. And that's where we get a person who is called an oikist. Um, the oikist was an individual who would essentially be in charge of deciding where they would settle, and then organize the whole affair. That sucks. That's like- Just a rough job, man. I don't want that. No, that's too much responsibility. Then do they become like the ruler after? Kind- Cause also still weird. Depends what kind of governance you're setting up. Right. You know, if you're doing a democracy, no, they don't become the ruler. Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  But in, in other ways, yes. This person would be someone of importance from the mother city. It is still gonna be an upper-class individual, right? A member of one of the leading families. In the case of cities that were run by rulers or tyrants, this could be one of their sons. Um, and in this case, the colony would be an extension of the city's power, in some sense. Or at least the relationship between the colony and the mother city would be much stronger because of the originator, the, the founders familial relationship. Uh, the oikist would be expected to first make a visit to the sanctuary at Delphi in order to ask the Pythia where the hell they should go. And also, if it's a good idea.

• 31:31Speaker 03

  They- Oh, I love this. I know. They would then be in charge of making decisions around, um, setting up the new colony, what sort of government they would run, um, and there was a sense of power with these men, cause of course, they were messmen. Yeah, of course. And often, this is, I, I find this interesting, after they died, they would be inducted into a hero cult, um, for that city, and they would be viewed as the heroic predecessor to the founded city. So- Okay, examples? Oh my god, I can't think of any. Oh, no, I'm sorry. I did this research months ago. Turn a man into Heracles for me. Uh, turn, let's just call him Sam.

• 32:16Liv Albert?

  I just think you could have thought of a slightly Greek or name, but who am I?

• 32:20Speaker 03

  Philippopolis!

• 32:22Liv Albert?

  Again, that's a pretty Macedonian, or my, that's a pretty Macedonian name, you gotta watch what you say.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  Around certain.

• 32:29Liv Albert?

  Eighteen Phillips at least.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Avistagories, is that what?

• 32:34Liv Albert?

  There are so many Phillips, one Philip? Even the Philip you're talking about was Philip the Second, Michaela. One Philip.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  But it's such a Greek name too. Oh, how about Yorgos? Okay, it's Yorgos.

• 32:47Speaker 03

  So, and sometimes if a colony.

• 32:50Liv Albert?

  His dad was Philip the Second, I'm not getting over this.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Oh, what happened to the first Phil? Who knows? Um, sometimes if a colony was founded before an orkest was chosen, which I think must have been so fun, they would then summon one from the mother city. They'd be like, we found a good place for a lad, you guy over there, come here, come here.

• 33:11Liv Albert?

  Leave everything you know and found this city.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  You got work to do here, so. The role of an orkest appears to simply be more concretely connected the colony with its mother city. I don't know if that made sense, just connect the two.

• 33:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you spelling Orca, Orca, Oikist, Oikist? Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Oikist, I'm sorry, is my speech impairment coming up? It's fine. Oikist, O-I-K-I-S-T.

• 33:42Liv Albert?

  I, yeah, okay.

• 33:43Speaker 03

  I think I'm sick. Oikist, like the Oikist, the guy of the Oikist.

• 33:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, this is fun too. There was even, oh, sorry, my cat's being fed.

• 33:56Liv Albert?

  He was there. He was ready.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Uh, so, there were even some cases of colonies claiming Apollo as their orkest, which would then give them divine legitimacy that a human man simply could not.

• 34:11Liv Albert?

  Nerds.

• 34:13Liv Albert?

  Nerds.

• 34:15Liv Albert?

  Get a grip.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Isn't that fun?

• 34:20Liv Albert?

  So, yeah.

• 34:22Liv Albert?

  Apollo would be the worst ruler. Are you kidding?

• 34:24Speaker 03

  But Apollo is always the one because Apollo was such an important god.

• 34:30Liv Albert?

  Well, especially if they're like. Yeah, and they're going to Delphi for all of that. Like, they're gonna do Apollo. Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Apollo just becomes, he's like the garbage god where just, you know. It's true. It's like, this thing.

• 34:43Liv Albert?

  No, that's a hundred percent true.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Who will be the god of it? Oh, Apollo. Like, it's just kind of there.

• 34:48Liv Albert?

  The garbage god.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  We love him for it?

• 34:52Liv Albert?

  No, I wouldn't love Apollo. That's fine.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  I want to bully him. He seems like he'd be fun to bully.

• 34:58Liv Albert?

  He's the one god that I have had.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  If I had to deal with a god.

• 35:02Liv Albert?

  He's the one god that I have had teenage.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:07Liv Albert?

  Poly, like Hellenist, modern Hellenists, like, tell me I'm gonna be in big trouble because I've insulted Apollo. And I just, it makes me want to hate him more.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Apollo can come for me. I will trip him. Like, I don't care. I will.

• 35:21Liv Albert?

  The best thing is like, they've complained to me. They've been like, basically, like, they won't actually deny any of the stuff I've said because I speak about the ancient sources that include Apollo. Like, I'm not pulling it out of nowhere, but then they're like, so mad at me. And I'm like, well, he shouldn't have been a problem if he wants to go ahead and like, exercise that control.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  Such like a, a modern response to religion.

• 35:43Liv Albert?

  No, exactly. Yeah, it's so separate from the ancient world.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I think very well, the Greeks thought the gods were shitty. They're a problem. We need to be concerned about them. Like, it was about. Yeah, but then like.

• 35:57Liv Albert?

  You're not supposed to love them for everything. You're not. That's why they're so garbage in the stories. Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 03

  They're scary guys versus like, you know, now there's that idea of gods are such loving, beautiful things. Like, God bless the souls of the tiny little teenage Hellenists. I love them. Let them believe what they want, but then when they're doing things, they say some wild shit.

• 36:18Liv Albert?

  Less about it to me. I want them to do what they want and then not tell me that Apollo's gonna be mad at me, or at least.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  They can go live their best life, but I love to death when they say such a things and I'm sitting here and I'm like. All right.

• 36:33Liv Albert?

  I like.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  You, I, are you, no.

• 36:36Liv Albert?

  I respect the concept, but I also need them to recognize that I am just talking about an ancient sources.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that modern hellenism is.

• 36:44Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  It's not.

• 36:45Liv Albert?

  Do you, but like, that doesn't change.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  What they practiced in antiquity. Yeah. Okay, so Greeks settled all around the Aegean, surprise. Um, from the cities all up and down the Ionian coast, um, they, they continuously had, uh, troubles with the Akhenaten Empire. They also settled down into Egypt where we have one of the greatest emporions, now Kratis. Um, and of course, yeah, yeah, it's a, it was originally a Greek colony.

• 37:14Liv Albert?

  That makes sense, because that name sounds very Greek. Not that, I mean, all of, a lot of the stuff we use today are Greek names for other places, so. Egypt, surprise, it's a Greek word.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  And then also, like you mentioned, we have Magna Grekia, which is not just Sicily, it's also, um, southern Italy.

• 37:29Liv Albert?

  Yes, apologies, I knew that as I said it. They made Apulian art, guys, Google that, and, ugh, Apulian pottery.

• 37:38Speaker 03

  And what I find so fun is that one of those original Greek colonies in, um, well, okay, it was, okay, you know what, you wanted an example of a city being the city. Um, I have one, because we still have this city to this day, and that is Naples. Um, Naples was originally a native italic settlement. The Greeks came, kicked them the fuck out. Now they're in there, and they name it, Neapolis.

• 38:04Liv Albert?

  Oh, of course, I knew that it was called, yeah, new city.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then eventually they get kicked out by, I think it was actually some other, um, native Italians, and then Roman came and took it over. I could be wrong about that, though. But, yeah, so that is one instance where Greece took someone's city, uh, but we still have it, and they got good pizza, so. You might get robbed there, but it's, it's fine. That's life.

• 38:28Liv Albert?

  The museum is great.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:29Liv Albert?

  The museum is unfucking real.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 38:32Liv Albert?

  And then I was happy to leave Naples.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  That is my fun little brief overview on colonization. Sorry, it's not more about exactly cities, but I kind of wanted to step into what it looked like more than, um.

• 38:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:44Liv Albert?

  The examples. No, but I think that's, it's interesting, yeah, because it is so different from what we think now, and it's so different from what then the Romans were gonna come in and do, and like. I mean, understanding that nuance that like colonialism broadly is, I mean, when we talk about it in that way, usually referring to the last few centuries because that is what is affecting the world right now and destroying the world and killing everyone that isn't Western. But yeah, we have to remember that like there is this enormous history of colonization that doesn't always include like that level of cultural destruction going along with it or like genocide.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  Um, the intention of it is different. And I think that's, yeah, because modern colonization, like we're saying, it's very insidious. There is a goal there of wiping out.

• 39:33Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and money, it's about controlling the trade routes, controlling the people, controlling people who aren't white. You know, they weren't going around colonizing except for poor Ireland, you know, the, you know, it was, it was all like how these people that I think with the big, the big thing too, that stands out to me when we talk about it comparatively and like, we do have this term of barbarian and that goes a long way, but at the same time, the, the level of dehumanization in modern colonialism, that's the thing that to me makes such a huge difference and like the, the notion of barbarian just does not go there at all. It's nothing like the level of dehumanization of particularly the Americas, coming over and being like, these people aren't a civilization and thus we can take it like.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. And they had their like tripartite, um, systeming of it goes to you of culture and society and how it evolved where first you were savages. And then you're barbarians and then you're civilization. And I'm like, whoa, motherfuckers.

• 40:30Liv Albert?

  No, that's the thing. That's the dehumanization. Yeah, that's what's so different. Whereas the Greeks called them barbarians, but they didn't actually like the term barbarian as we see it now has modern connotations. It was really just like, they're not Greek. They did think they were lesser.

• 40:43Speaker 03

  They're not speaking Greek. They're not doing it the right way.

• 40:46Liv Albert?

  It's, yeah, but it, it did not have the level of dehumanization. It was about, about being different. It was xenophobia, but it was not the level of like, these people. Like are not human at the same tier and that's what modern colonization does and is so fucking disgusting.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think because when I look at Greek colonization in the Apoikias context, not in the Clerikees. Clerikees is straight empire building.

• 41:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah, that's Athens being Athens.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, in Apoikia context, it is it is looking at something and going, okay, this is them solving a problem, which the problem is there are now there's the population has gone up too much for the mother city of the original Polis to support. So what's going to happen if you can't keep people happy? If you don't keep people happy, they revolt. Everyone needs to follow French's, Francis.

• 41:37Liv Albert?

  Revolt.

• 41:39Speaker 03

  They, oh, those, those guys, they know how to revolt.

• 41:42Liv Albert?

  Oh, they do.

• 41:43Speaker 03

  And let me just say, they get things done.

• 41:45Liv Albert?

  Lately, I've been feeling the need to emphasize these terms like revolt and rebellion and resistance.

• 41:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 41:52Liv Albert?

  Because they are called that in hindsight, but over the last twenty something years, we have been taught to call things that in twenty years, we will call them rebellions. We will call them resistance and in over the last twenty years, we've been caught taught to call it something else. A word I'm not going to say because last time people like, but I know what I'm saying, guys. Uh, well, that was timely, Michaela, and we're doing great.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but it's interesting. We have to understand the past other because like, I mean, we're all, any one of us who's been paying attention.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 42:25Liv Albert?

  We're all watching history repeat itself right now.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:28Liv Albert?

  We're watching the news, say that that was an awkward hand gesture.

• 42:33Liv Albert?

  Where we're just like, we're, we're watching history repeat itself. And I think that the best way of dealing with that as historians or people in that realm at all like is to just revisit it and look at it and break that shit down. So.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Make it, make it accessible and show people and, and, and, you know, give people resources so that they can. Because you know, I think. I I understand my privilege as being somebody who is in academia and who is in a in a top rated school in Canada. Um, I worked my ass off to get here. I will say that it wasn't easy. Um, but I I recognize that so much of history is very much so locked behind the paywall of university and I hate it too. And if I can do my part and bring it to people.

• 43:18Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  That's

• 43:19Liv Albert?

  Well, that's why this show is fucking fun. Thank

• 43:21Speaker 03

  Yay.

• 43:22Liv Albert?

  Thank everyone for listening because honestly, the fact that we can do this and we have this platform because people want to hear this stuff. And I, yeah, it's really cool. It is ironic now that I've I'm realizing it. Maybe we can't release this one as the first paywall.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Let's start, let's start in February.

• 43:40Liv Albert?

  Next week.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  It also, yeah, yeah.

• 43:41Liv Albert?

  Sorry.

• 43:44Speaker 03

  February be paywall. I'm sorry. Um, I will

• 43:47Liv Albert?

  We're doing it because we need to fund our resistance to this stuff and we want to use this money to like bring lots of else to you that we haven't can't say yet.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  And if people want information, message me. I, um, yeah, I'll do my, I I'm very awkward with people. So if I take forever to respond to people, I'm sorry. But on, um, Instagram, well, Pythia wannabe on Blue Sky, I'm Pythia wannabe. If you want information or if you just want someone to be like, hey, maybe to look into something for you and help guide you towards something, shoot me a message. I will get to it eventually. Just give me a little bit of patience, but I will be absolutely happy to help direct people towards resources.

• 44:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  I'm very happy to do that. So, you know, that's where you can find me or you can just don't email Liv.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Unless you really want to, in which case she'll just forward it to me. It's fine.

• 44:43Liv Albert?

  No, but we really do have so much in mind and we are working towards

• 44:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:46Liv Albert?

  Uh, so much, um, that we hope to be more of this, more of of spreading history in this way and accessible history and nuanced history. And yeah, so, but thank you all so much for listening. I'm not going to try to read out credits because Michaela's on here with me anyway.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 45:06Liv Albert?

  So here we are. I am Liv and I love this shift.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  And I'm Michaela and I'm here too.

• 45:30Speaker 01

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