Sentimental Value

The new movie Sentimental Value is one of the great films about absentee dads who reappear in their kids’ lives. Stellan Skarsgård plays a renowned filmmaker preparing his next feature and attempting to reconnect with his estranged daughters (played by Renate Reinsve and Inga Ibsdotter Lilleaas). And it proves that at the very least, the tension between art and parenthood is complicated. The film is directed by Joachim Trier (The Worst Person in the World) and also stars Elle Fanning. Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/ See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

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• 0:19Aisha Harris?

  There are a lot of movies about absentee dads who reappear in their kids' lives. The new movie, Sentimental Value, is one of the great ones. It stars Stellan Skarsgård as a filmmaker attempting to reconnect with his estranged daughters, and it proves that, at the very least, the tension between art and parenthood is complicated. I'm Aisha Harris. Today, we're talking about Sentimental Value, Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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• 1:57Aisha Harris?

  Joining me today is my co-host Stephen Thompson. Hello, Stephen.

• 2:00Stephen Thompson?

  Hello, Ayesha.

• 2:02Aisha Harris?

  Also with us is Vulture TV critic Roxana Hadadi. Welcome back, Roxana.

• 2:06Speaker 05

  Hey, thank you so much for having me.

• 2:08Aisha Harris?

  Lovely to have you here. Sentimental Value stars Stellan Skarsgård as Gustav Borg, a renowned filmmaker preparing his next feature, A Personal Passion Project. He offers the lead role to his estranged daughter Nora, an actress played by Renata Reinsvet, but she turns him down. Still, his re-entrance into Nora's life opens the door for possible reconciliation with her, as well as his other daughter Agnes, played by Inga Ibsdotter-Lilios. Elle Fanning also stars as Rachel, an American actress whom Gustav casts in the part Nora rejected. It's directed by Joachim Trier, who previously worked with Reinsvet on The Worst Person in the World. Sentimental Value is in theaters now. Stephen, I'm going to start with you. You are a resident sentimental critic here.

• 2:54Stephen Thompson?

  Resident sentimentalist.

• 2:56Aisha Harris?

  Yes, yes. And so I am so curious. How are we feeling about this film?

• 3:01Stephen Thompson?

  Well, you know, I think, Ayesha, you recommended, as soon as you saw this movie, you were like, Stephen, you need to see this. You're going to sob all over the place. And, you know, that is a safe assumption in general, really when recommending any movie. I really liked this film. I really admired this film. I love the performances in this film. I think this is basically, across the board, a wonderfully acted film. I didn't necessarily sob all over the place. I mostly sat there kind of vibing with it and appreciating it. This film has a lot to say about kind of generational trauma. There are a lot of kind of cross-generational interactions that are kind of freighted. There's this central metaphor about this house, you know, where this family kind of grew up,

• 3:44Stephen Thompson?

  and how it is figuratively and literally a broken home. It has a crack running up the foundation, up the wall, and you're like, that is a tidy metaphor. So I wasn't necessarily always 100% knocked out by it, but I think these performances are just marvelous. I loved Renata Reinsvet in The Worst Person in the world. I thought she was magnificent in that. I'm always interested in whatever she does. The fact that she's, you know, working with the same director, I'm like, man, these two can just keep making movies together.

• 4:17Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 4:17Stephen Thompson?

  But for me, the revelation was Inga Ibsdotter-Lilleos as Agnes. It's such a low key performance and it feels, you know, she's surrounded by these kind of decorated actors. You know, she is a decorated actor, just not super well known here.

• 4:33Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 4:33Stephen Thompson?

  To me, she just jumped off the screen and that is such a contained and powerful performance.

• 4:39Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, there's a very lovely moment towards the end of the film that happens between her character and Nora. And that sort of sister dynamic plays out so interestingly because she herself has not pursued the acting career, even though, you know, they both grew up with their father being the famous. And so like, that's such an interesting way to see these two different people who have shared trauma and shared a shared relationship. And you're so right. That's such a great performance. Roxanna, how are we feeling about Sentimental Value?

• 5:12Speaker 05

  I am very pro. I mean, look, like you know all my preferences, right? My preferences are like Stellan being Stellan. Like I love when he sort of plays this like very defensive in his bad decisions kind of figure. Like I think that's great. I'm coded to love that now forever because of Andor. So I really love him here as someone who has committed himself fully to art. And he's like, yeah, my family was second. Like it had to be second because I had to make art. And so I think that the movie does a really good job

• 5:50Speaker 05

  getting into that ideology and just sort of spending time with what it is to be a filmmaker. What kind of conversations do you have with actors? How do you cast people? How do you make them into the characters they're trying to perform? I really loved that aspect of it. The family stuff is like very weighted. And yes, it has this like house metaphor that keeps coming up. But I, I really enjoyed the sort of like, how do you make a movie? Especially when the movie is like plumbing your inner life, right? Like what is off limits? What is not off limits? And there are all these moments where Stellan's character says like, well, this isn't about me.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  And you sort of have to laugh because like-

• 6:38Stephen Thompson?

  You're like, yeah, right, buddy.

• 6:39Speaker 05

  Buddy. The entire movie is your life story and you're drawing your daughters into it, right? So it did not make me super emotional so much as it felt very, very satisfying to spend time with this script and with these characters. And so I just-

• 6:57Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 6:57Speaker 05

  I hate to say like, the vibes, but the vibe of it in terms of like diving into actual creative pursuit, I think is what I really, really liked and responded to.

• 7:08Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Stephen Thompson?

  I also think this movie is a little bit of a slow burn-

• 7:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:11Stephen Thompson?

  Where it takes a little bit of time for some of the relationships in the movie to fully sink in. And as I was watching it in the theater, I'd had the thought several times of like, why is Elle Fanning in this movie?

• 7:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:23Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 7:23Stephen Thompson?

  Like, Elle Fanning is brought into this movie, she's like the famous glitzy movie actress who is brought in to be the stand-in for Renata Rheinsfis' character, who doesn't want to work with her father. But like, looking back on it and kind of thinking about the film in hindsight, like, she's there because he relates to actors better than he relates to his kids.

• 7:45Speaker 05

  Hundred percent. Yes.

• 7:47Stephen Thompson?

  So he wants his kids to be actors so that he can connect to them.

• 7:51Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 7:51Stephen Thompson?

  And I think that's a really interesting facet of this film, that it's more than just about family, it's also about filmmakers.

• 8:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:00Aisha Harris?

  Yes. Yeah. For me, Elle Fanning was actually one of my favorite parts of this film, if not-

• 8:05Speaker 05

  Agreed.

• 8:06Aisha Harris?

  That entire dynamic. She's quietly becoming one of those actresses who, where I see her in something and I'm like, oh, I'm very happy you're here. She's often not in the conversation with the women in her sort of cohort, you know, your Jennifer Lawrence is like, but she should be because I think especially here, while at first it's, as you said, Stephen, it's not clear why she's there, there is this whole subplot of her trying to be molded by Gustav. And it is very vertigo. It is very like, I want you to dye your hair, I want you to do these things. And she's going along because she's like, I have this opportunity to work with this brilliant artist and this could be great. And there's a way that this could have been played. She's the American actress, the Hollywood actress who-

• 8:49Aisha Harris?

  Just kind of wants to like, put this under her belt and maybe get an Oscar. Like, there's a way this could have felt like a very queasy role, but it's very clear she wants to do good work. But what I loved about that dynamic is that while that's happening and he's dealing with his not being a good father, she is trying to figure out like, where do I fit in? And maybe realizing, maybe this isn't right for me. Yeah. There is just something about that and seeing that play out in a way that it's often really hard to get filmmaking and rehearsing, right, to like, on film, like, it's hard to make it seem like, feel like the natural process of that. And I think what Yulki M. Trier is able to do here is really get into the nitty gritty about what it's like to work one-on-one with someone,

• 9:33Aisha Harris?

  especially when you want them to be something or like, want to try and work, like, create a character, and they're not sure how to do it, and you're not sure what you want either. And I loved that.

• 9:42Stephen Thompson?

  We cover a lot of movies about the process of making art. And making art is a thing that is really hard to capture on film. And often you wind up shorthanding it with like, the lone genius sitting at a writing table scribbling out and throwing into the wastebasket and like,

• 10:00Aisha Harris?

  Mank.

• 10:01Stephen Thompson?

  That's, yeah, Mank, that's supposed to represent what the artistic process is all about. But so often, I mean, the artistic process generally, I say this all the time, is not the work of a lone genius. It's the product of collaboration. And how do you capture the kind of thorny, conversational, frustrated, kind of tightly wound process, you know, that results in great art? And this film, I think, really does get at it while also capturing how hard that can be to translate into the collaboration necessary to have a happy and healthy family.

• 10:38Speaker 05

  I also think the thing that I really liked, and it's very much part of that, is that there's sort of this question of like, who owns your personal experience? Especially when your personal experience like overlaps with other people. And like, we get into this like, a lot with just like autobiographical art in general. Like, is it your place to speak to things that you experienced when they involve other people? And those other people don't want you to speak to them? And so there's this whole undercurrent there as well. And there's this like wonderful scene where the characters of Nora and Rachel meet.

• 11:15Speaker 06

  Why didn't you want to do the role? I can't. Work with him. Why? We can't really talk. But he wanted you to do it. Yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. And they have this like, sort of existential discussion, right? About like, what is that relationship like? And I, I just think all of that was really fascinating. The other thing that I will say that I really enjoyed is there is sort of this like, in Gustav's character, this sort of like hierarchy of art that I actually really liked. Like, he insults television, which of course a film director would do. And he sort of, he sort of like discredits the fact that Nora has become like a very celebrated stage actor, right?

• 11:59Stephen Thompson?

  Right. Doesn't want any part of the stage.

• 12:02Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, which is weird.

• 12:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:04Aisha Harris?

  You would think there would be a little bit more reverence for the stage, but.

• 12:07Stephen Thompson?

  I mean, stage purism is such a thing.

• 12:09Aisha Harris?

  That's, yeah, that's true. Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 05

  You know, we're talking a lot about sort of like the emotional resonance and like the trauma and like all that stuff is like 100% there. But I also liked these moments when the characters can just be like sort of shady about different art forms.

• 12:25Aisha Harris?

  Yes, yes.

• 12:26Stephen Thompson?

  It speaks to the quality of both the script and these performances, that these feel like fully, richly thought out and drawn characters.

• 12:35Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, absolutely. I did want to kind of ask about like, before we got on mic, Roxana, you and I were chatting about similarities between this and another film that will be out this fall season. J. Kelly, the Noah Baumbach film starring George Clooney. Very, very similar in plots.

• 12:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:55Aisha Harris?

  George Clooney is playing, instead of a director, he's a big movie star, basically kind of a himself, but not.

• 13:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:02Aisha Harris?

  And he's trying to reconnect with his daughters and figure out, you know, where did I go wrong? Why was I absent? So hear me out for a second. Remember in the 90s, I guess 80s and 90s, where there was a slew of movies where the dads who were like workaholics were getting, you know, it's like you had to go through a whole rigmarole, or it's like, oh, you're not there for your kids. And then like get to the end of the movie, they realize, you know, oh, well, I need to be a better father. Work is everything.

• 13:26Stephen Thompson?

  That's when you hurl your cell phone. Into the river.

• 13:28Speaker 05

  Right.

• 13:28Aisha Harris?

  Exactly.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:30Aisha Harris?

  Well, I mean, this feels like, you know, the elevated version of that.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 13:34Aisha Harris?

  Instead of, you know, like Tim Allen or whatever, it's it's Stellan Skarsgård.

• 13:38Stephen Thompson?

  Robin Williams, Jim Carrey.

• 13:39Speaker 05

  We're talking about Hook. Can we just say that we're talking about Hook? Like, that's fine.

• 13:43Aisha Harris?

  Sure, we're talking about Hook. I'm just curious because like, having seen both of these movies, just like, what what is it about this sort of exercise, especially when you're talking about fathers and not mothers?

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:54Aisha Harris?

  Is there anything you want to say about that?

• 13:56Speaker 05

  Well, I think we're generally just sort of living in like a heavily fathers of daughters time. Like, that just seems to be like so much of the content that we get. I mean, The Last of Us is fathers of daughters. Like, both of these movies are fathers of daughters. And I think part of that, of course, is that like, we still live in a society that is very much movie directors are fathers.

• 14:17Aisha Harris?

  That's true.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  You know, like, we just get their crises because that's who's making art. I will say that I I do think that, yes, these movies are sort of like interesting counterpoints to each other. I would say I think that for me, sentimental value felt more about filmmaking and memory. And I think Jay Kelly felt more about like, the celebrity machine.

• 14:46Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  Less to me about the daughter dynamic. I think it felt more like, what is it like to be George Clooney? And that's that's sort of fun to explore.

• 14:56Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  But I I think it just felt more about like, star making than it felt about like, art making.

• 15:04Stephen Thompson?

  And I can't speak to Jay Kelly. I haven't seen it yet. But I do think one thing this film gets right in comparison to so many other films about dads and daughters is this movie cares very deeply about the interior lives of the daughters.

• 15:19Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 15:20Stephen Thompson?

  And does right by the interior lives of the daughters. And part of that is a testament to the performances. But part of that is the movie actually cares about them. And the dad is a little bit more of an ephemeral, mercurial presence. Like, he's the one you don't necessarily know everything that makes that guy tick. I think the film is ultimately more interested in the daughters.

• 15:43Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 15:43Stephen Thompson?

  To its credit.

• 15:44Aisha Harris?

  Absolutely. I think we spent almost as much time with them.

• 15:47Stephen Thompson?

  If not more.

• 15:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:47Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, not more. And I think for me, one of my biggest issues, well, my only issue with this film, sentimental value really, is the ending. I did feel as though there was some emotional, there are some emotional beats that somehow were skipped, even though this is a very emotional movie and there's so much attention to detail. It's like the last few minutes, I did feel a little bit let down by how kind of tidy it all felt. Not perfect, but just tidy.

• 16:16Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 16:16Stephen Thompson?

  Exactly the right word.

• 16:17Aisha Harris?

  It doesn't undermine, it doesn't ruin the rest of the experience of the film for me, but it does kind of give me like, ah, I kind of wish there was a different decision made there.

• 16:25Speaker 05

  Hmm. I sort of felt like the ending was inevitable. Like, I don't know how else you would end this movie, given sort of like the themes that it is talking about in terms of like artistic expression and like, is it most important to do art that challenges you or just art that you're good at? And I think that those are like very different things in this film.

• 16:50Aisha Harris?

  Hmm.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  I can see your point, but I feel like maybe there's some like squishiness in terms of how we get there, but I always sort of thought we would get there. So I was okay with it by the end.

• 17:02Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Stephen Thompson?

  I think there are ways they could have actually biffed the ending.

• 17:06Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 17:06Stephen Thompson?

  And I appreciated that they didn't.

• 17:08Aisha Harris?

  That's true.

• 17:09Stephen Thompson?

  It does feel a little tidy in a film that is willing to go so much deeper in other ways. I think that's maybe why the tidiness stands out.

• 17:17Aisha Harris?

  Hmm. Yokim Ture has talked about how he sees this as sort of like an exercising of his own anxieties about being a father.

• 17:26Speaker 05

  Right.

• 17:27Aisha Harris?

  I don't want to psychoanalyze him here, but like I do wonder if that maybe is part of why he made that decision with the ending is like, he's still working through things.

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Right. I also think that it also speaks to the fact that like, this is why you cast Stellan, right? Like, Stellan has, I'm gonna make this joke, which is not true, but Stellan has like a million children. They're all in acting, right? Like, I think that there is also- Sort of-

• 17:50Stephen Thompson?

  The Family Scars Guard.

• 17:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's also this sort of interesting meta layer to having Stellan, who mostly has sons who are actors, playing this character who has daughters who are involved in this industry, but in different ways from what he expected. So I also thought the ending sort of spoke to that for me. And maybe that's why I responded to it favorably. But it sort of felt like it, again, aligned with life in sort of like a peculiar sentimental way that I responded to.

• 18:27Aisha Harris?

  Well, I think we all really dug this and think people should absolutely see this film.

• 18:32Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 18:33Aisha Harris?

  It is a very moving movie. It didn't make us all cry, but I think it'll at least make you sniffle, maybe.

• 18:38Stephen Thompson?

  I mean, Ayesha, I cried a little.

• 18:41Speaker 05

  You can feel things and not cry, you know?

• 18:44Aisha Harris?

  This is true.

• 18:45Stephen Thompson?

  Well, you say so.

• 18:46Speaker 05

  I cry a lot, a lot of tears.

• 18:50Aisha Harris?

  Well, tell us what you think about sentimental value when you've had a chance to check it out. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh, and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/NPRPopCulture. We'll have a link to that in our episode description. That brings us to the end of our show. Roxana Hadadi, Stephen Thompson, thanks so much for being here.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  Thank you, guys.

• 19:09Stephen Thompson?

  Thank you.

• 19:10Aisha Harris?

  This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Carly Rubin, and Mike Katsev, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello, Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next time.