Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 108: King of Police

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 108: King of Police. Karen covered the Matthew Hoffman case and Georgia discussed the murder of Little Grégory. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  This is that show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with new insights, case updates, and pop culture references.

• 1:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, we're rewinding to episode 108, which we named "King of Police."

• 2:05Karen Kilgariff?

  This episode originally came out February 15, 2018.

• 2:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So let's listen to the intro of episode 108.

• 2:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 2:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 2:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 2:17Georgia Hardstark?

  To.

• 2:17Karen Kilgariff?

  My.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Favorite.

• 2:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Emir-der.

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  The podcast.

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That tells you.

• 2:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Just things.

• 2:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking tons of random terrible things.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, without curse words.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. This is a, this is an all-Christian podcast.

• 2:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Child-friendly.

• 2:36Karen Kilgariff?

  A child-friendly, religious-based.

• 2:38Georgia Hardstark?

  We've got fucking railroad, or what are they called? Trains going by in the background constantly.

• 2:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Ghost trains. We don't believe in evolution. Everything you could want in a podcast.

• 2:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, that train's loud.

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Do you know, I got into an Uber the other day, and like, there was this rock music playing, and I was like, okay, rock music, great. And then it was like, the lyrics were like, "Oh, fuck, you're trying to sell me hard on Jesus H. Christ."

• 3:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And you were like, "Hava nagila." I've had that a couple times in Ubers, where I feel like people are like, they're trying to work, they're trying to make a dollar, but they're also like, well, I could kill two birds with one stone and be spreading the word of our Lord.

• 3:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if there's like a cult of, you know, Jesus people who are like, this is how we're gonna get people on, is we're gonna Uber and play pretty good rock music.

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty good, passable.

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so funny, I did Dave Holmes Friday 40 last Friday.

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  With Chris Fairbanks of Do You Need a Bride? And he said, I can't remember how it came up, but he goes, "Have you ever had that thing where you, you start to hear a song, you really like it, and then you realize it's Christian, and then you realize you're like a hypocrite for not liking it?"

• 3:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of what happened. Well, I don't want to hear about how he lifts you up and you raise your paws in the air.

• 4:01Karen Kilgariff?

  He lifts you.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Dirty Dancing style, like Patrick Swayze?

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  No one puts Jesus in a corner.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Boom. End the podcast.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Boom, goodbye.

• 4:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Lights out.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck all y'all. Hey, can I do, can I read this? Because, fine, I've been exposed as being obsessed with bowling. Fine, I don't care anymore.

• 4:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Why aren't we bold yet?

• 4:24Karen Kilgariff?

  We've had at least two days.

• 4:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So someone sent us a picture of the bowling socks I was talking about last, on the Minnesota. The Miny-isode.

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Miny-isode.

• 4:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly as I described, three bowling pins, a red bowling ball, and what looks like puffs of air at the bottom? Do you think that's the speed of the ball hitting those?

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's like, it's like, it's almost like a bomb goes off.

• 4:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, on your ankles.

• 4:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're, these ones, it says, "This is for Hard Stark." That's you, Georgia.

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, because this is Instagram.

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 5:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven Ray Morris, "My Favorite Murder." "I believe I got the Mission Bowling Club." Is that in San Francisco? It is. Graywing. This is from Graywing on Instagram, San Francisco. "P.S. My grandmother is in the Bowling Hall of Fame." What?

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so proud of your grandma.

• 5:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Who is she? We've, please send us more information.

• 5:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Graywing, G-R-E-Y-W-I-N-G, San Francisco, California. If you could please send us a very concise book report, three to five paragraphs about your grandmother.

• 5:35Georgia Hardstark?

  With photographs from, from when she was playing bowling and as an elderly woman.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  What if it's both?

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 5:44Karen Kilgariff?

  What if she started young and went all the way into her, into to modern day?

• 5:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to know what she carried in her purse on a regular basis.

• 5:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Hall of Fame, though. That's, she's not just a great bowler. She is of the greatest bowlers. And you know San Francisco. I mean, it's where, that's where my people are from.

• 6:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why I'm so passionate about bowling.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not like they have a shortage of good bowlers, so that means she was really fucking good.

• 6:07Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. It's what everyone's like up there. It matters.

• 6:13Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna go bowling soon. Oh, today's Valentine's Day.

• 6:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Happy Valentine's Day, everybody.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Well, yesterday was Valentine's Day, based on the, when this podcast is going out.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Based on the reality you people live in.

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 6:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Not the one that we truly are stuck in.

• 6:28Georgia Hardstark?

  We're currently drinking coffee and whiskey and...

• 6:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. We're having such a Valentine's Day party. Steven's drinking coffee out of a cat mug, which is his lifelong dream, right? I'm drinking coffee out of an FBI mug. No, sorry, LA County Coroner mug. Which is my dream. Georgia's having some nice whiskey on ice.

• 6:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Out of a vintage fucking Tumblr mug, Tumblr glass.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it looks like something that would absolutely have been left on my grandmother's nightstand.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And then in the background, there is a train that has not, there hasn't been a train that's come by here in 25 years.

• 7:04Georgia Hardstark?

  We're living our lives.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I wanted to tell you that after a 20-year hiatus, I am again reading Stranger Beside Me.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, really?

• 7:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What brought you back to us, Zac Efron?

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, people want to hear, people want us to talk about that.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  We have talked about it.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but they want us, there's more photos now.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And I, and as, and now that I'm reading it, and like, in it, I see the photos, and I'm like, I know when that was like, supposed to have happened, and...

• 7:35Karen Kilgariff?

  When did Ted Bundy go through a weightlifting phase? That's the question I have, because the first photo I saw...

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Really? You think he's too cut?

• 7:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He's insanely cut. For, from what I, in my limited, as we all know, extremely limited research, Ted Bundy always seemed like kind of a skinny little professorial type.

• 7:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's like a skinny, but like, what is it? You know, like a tennis player.

• 7:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Sinewy?

• 8:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Sinewy.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a sinewy type.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This is why you wanted Gary.

• 8:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Sinise?

• 8:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Sinise. Maybe we just happened to...

• 8:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it Sinise, or are you just saying that because of Sinise?

• 8:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it is. There's someone, you said you wanted to play him before this whole Efron thing came out.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It was not Gary Sinise.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Who was it?

• 8:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on, Steven. You can't put your hands up like you don't work here. You son of a bitch. Steven.

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven, you had one job.

• 8:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You have one job, which is to memorize every word I say.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not Gary Sinise?

• 8:33Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, oh, God, what's his name?

• 8:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It's someone who looks like that.

• 8:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Ted Bundy. Who would you want to play? Let's, let's, let's start over. Who do you think should play Ted Bundy? Not Zac Efron.

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Let me stroke my minorly invisible beard.

• 8:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's...

• 8:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Forget it. Edit this out.

• 8:57Karen Kilgariff?

  No, this is one of these.

• 8:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven's saying no.

• 8:59Karen Kilgariff?

  This is, Steven's like, you don't decide.

• 9:01Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks like Bill Pullman.

• 9:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. I remember this and I remember when it hit me, I was like, I'm a fucking casting genius.

• 9:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You were, and he's in the movie.

• 9:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not Chris Pine.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Is he? No.

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love him. Is he in the movie with Jack Nicholson when Jack Nicholson is?

• 9:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Greg Kinnear.

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Greg Kinnear.

• 9:24Karen Kilgariff?

  There are people who have been screaming at their podcast machines this whole time.

• 9:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Gary and Greg, so similar.

• 9:31Karen Kilgariff?

  You were right there with that G.

• 9:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, with the four-letter word and the G.

• 9:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Greg Kinnear is the, with dark hair, because his eyes are little, he's good-looking classically, but his eyes are just enough close together that you are suspicious of his agenda. Is this train circling the apartment?

• 9:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I think the train is coming for us.

• 9:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you hear it, Steven?

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, good. It's, we're tied on the track right now.

• 9:57Karen Kilgariff?

  We haven't paid our, we haven't paid our rent.

• 10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven is twirling his mustache as he watches us tied to the track.

• 10:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, good Buster Keaton's here.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, great. You know, I'm having, now, of course, I'm having Ted Bundy nightmares.

• 10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, and because you're in that book.

• 10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And I keep saying, stop reading this, Georgia, stop reading this, Georgia, and I can't put it down.

• 10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good, and it's also so dated, and Anne Rule, like, she should never have died because she just needs to keep updating this book.

• 10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, the idea, like, when she tells that story, the idea that she was this single mother who was trying, who was working for the police department, but was also trying to be a freelance writer.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's like, what are the fucking chances?

• 10:40Karen Kilgariff?

  What are the chances? And she's, but she's also volunteering at night, like, what a, what a badass. And then she volunteers next to pretty much one, second only to like Ed Gein or Dahmer, like, one of the most.

• 10:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe Dahmer.

• 10:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Gacy. But one of the, like, yeah, no.

• 10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I think every, I think Ted Bundy was relatable to everyone because he was hot.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, he was so tricky. He was the ultimate, like, wolf in sheep's clothing.

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, he is kind of small.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Believe that he could have done it for so many.

• 11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Believe it when it was like, it's, we've found a man in a gold Volkswagen bug.

• 11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  She called the, her friends at the detective agency and was like, just look into my friend. I know this is weird.

• 11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 11:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, she even turned him in, and she was like, I don't, it can't be.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It can't be him, but could you look? Because she was like, I can't deny these stacking up facts.

• 11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  But still, it's not him. I know it's not him.

• 11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'll, yeah.

• 11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the classic sociopath, like, or psychopath.

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But we didn't know it at, well, we, I wasn't boring.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  They, you know, they didn't know it at the time that that was a thing that, even though someone doesn't look like a fucking murderer.

• 11:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Or act like it. No one, those people don't act like murderers.

• 11:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, now we know what, well, so the movie is coming out of, with Zac Efron. I hope he kills it. I'm looking forward to it.

• 12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I think he will.

• 12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I think he looks like him enough. And the other thing that she keeps talking about is that he was like a shapeshifter, that he looked different all the fucking time, which is why it was so hard to pin down, is that he kind of always changed his look.

• 12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. In fact, you can, if you look it up online, and I'm sure everyone that's, most of the people listening have already seen this, but there is a collage of his mugshots. And you can see how the way they couldn't, like, when he went from Seattle to Utah.

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's not even like a beard or not a beard. It's just this look in his face. It's so different, and that's the spookiest part.

• 12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And then by the time he gets to Florida, he's just a fucking maniac.

• 12:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for Zac Efron, man. What a fucking role.

• 12:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I think he can do it.

• 12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, what a dream fucking, well, so, there's this, there's this documentary.

• 12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just say this?

• 12:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He can't, I hope he knows, and if they're still shooting, and he can hear me, don't smile with your eyes, because that's, you gotta go dead zone.

• 13:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 13:04Karen Kilgariff?

  With those crazy eyes.

• 13:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Because Zac Efron's a big, like, he's like one of, the reason he's like a Disney star is because he's one of those 12-year-old boys that would wink at a grown woman.

• 13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Ew.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a, it's a specific type of.

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a Bieber.

• 13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a, he's a Ryan.

• 13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Mick.

• 13:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do this again.

• 13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, he's a Ryan.

• 13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it some more. Who's the one everyone loves?

• 13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't like him.

• 13:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven?

• 13:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Ryan Seacrest?

• 13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  No! Are you fucking kidding me, Steven?

• 13:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the one. You know, the blonde one, who was in Drive. Drive, right? Oh, Ryan Gosling. Thank you!

• 13:40Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a Gosling.

• 13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You were almost fired. He's a Gosling.

• 13:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Seacrest. God damn it.

• 13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, Steven out.

• 13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Of a job.

• 13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how you fire Steven. What if, that's how Ryan Seacrest fires people. Joanne out of accounting.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Joanne.

• 13:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Joanne out.

• 13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  She did her best.

• 14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  She tried, but.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone Knows Something, season four started.

• 14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Loving it. David Rigan.

• 14:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I love Something Know, Someone Knows Something.

• 14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  He's so good. This new one is about.

• 14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I love Something, Something, Something.

• 14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  This new one is about this dude who gets sent this bomb, explodes in his fucking hands, dies, still hasn't been solved. It was like 1996.

• 14:23Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Goes back to fucking figure out what happened. It's super good, and I'm really angry because they didn't drop all the episodes at once.

• 14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so you have to wait.

• 14:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so smart, but.

• 14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  There's nothing worse than having to wait.

• 14:35Georgia Hardstark?

  But I hate it.

• 14:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's great.

• 14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's good.

• 14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Does he, does he crunch down any country lanes?

• 14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  He, he fucking does his signature crunching to the, towards the door from his car.

• 14:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Beautiful.

• 14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  He does, it's his thing. It's his signature.

• 14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I see him in my mind as I listen to him do that, and it's such a delightful and yet also incredibly upsetting movie.

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Only he can get away with that.

• 14:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's such a documentary filmmaker thing to do.

• 15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  You know?

• 15:05Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so exciting that there's another season.

• 15:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it. That's all I have to say.

• 15:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And we are back. So much Jesus, so much Christian talk. We love it.

• 15:19Karen Kilgariff?

  We really do.

• 15:20Georgia Hardstark?

  When was the last time you went bowling?

• 15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, um, recently. It's a thing I do when I go home a lot.

• 15:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I love bowling.

• 15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I do too, until I get like halfway through, and then I'm like, this is, because I'm not good at it. So like, once you know you're not gonna get over a hundred, ever.

• 15:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right.

• 15:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? But those shoes are so cute.

• 15:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's like, just a repetitive action of something to do that keeps you from like standing around making awkward small talk. I always kind of love that.

• 15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a good point.

• 15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And it usually turns into something else, like, in my, you know, in my town, where it's like, now we're gonna go to the Buckhorn.

• 16:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no, that makes total sense. I'll always go bowling if someone asks me to go. It's like.

• 16:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so fun.

• 16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I was just talking about that, how I love, I really want to do a weekly thing that repeats every week, no matter what, where it's like a thing you can always do that people will always be there, where, whether it's like mahjong or bowling or just like a dinner or something, where you're just kind of like, it's just the, the gathering itself is kind of like the practice.

• 16:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's such an old lady thing to say.

• 16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you've always liked that, though, like game night, you know?

• 16:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly.

• 16:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That kind of thing.

• 16:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 16:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I never do shit like that.

• 16:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  A book club, I'm always threatening to fucking start a book club, but.

• 16:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But book club is like homework club. Like, you can't tell me what to do, even though I agreed to it, and maybe it was my idea in the first place.

• 16:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, how dare you? I've never, I've never been to a book club in my life. I've only seen them on the, the screen.

• 16:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's really funny. I've never been invited to a book.

• 16:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think they exist. I don't think they exist in real life. I think people are fucking lying to us.

• 17:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think they exist for girls like you and me. I think that's what it is. They're just like, um, maybe next time.

• 17:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're reading something way above your pay grade.

• 17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  We want people who will do the reading, not lie about the book in the group, not get drunk first, not yell at people during, during the book.

• 17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Not tell them they're wrong. No, that's a very good point.

• 17:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I only say that because in the 90s, we started like a scene, a cold reading kind of scene class, and it was just a bunch of comics who didn't want to be so bad at auditioning. But the majority of us would just get super drunk during the class, and then the people who started it got really mad.

• 17:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 17:40Karen Kilgariff?

  We know you're trying to work here. We're like, we're having fun.

• 17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's our class now, bitch.

• 17:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, just remember when everything was Someone Knows Something?

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I love Someone Knows Something. It's so comforting.

• 17:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 17:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Eight seasons out now.

• 17:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's amazing.

• 17:57Georgia Hardstark?

  He's Canadian, right?

• 17:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's CBC.

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  You can rely on the Canadians to come through.

• 18:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it turns out they have a lot of true crime, you guys. We think they're all innocent and like, you know, like.

• 18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Polite?

• 18:09Karen Kilgariff?

  The preppy cousin of us, but no, they've got some shit on their shoes.

• 18:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not all maple syrup and hi, how are you? They don't say that.

• 18:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't they? All right, well, so should we get into your story? Your cra, oh, your crazy story.

• 18:24Georgia Hardstark?

  This is so bad.

• 18:25Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, let's listen to Karen's story about Matthew Hoffman and the 2010 tree murders.

• 18:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, this was a story that I wanted to do when we were in Columbus.

• 18:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 18:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's too awful.

• 18:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 18:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, so I'm gonna go back. I know that these days, I've been doing lots of slightly off-kilter, lighter, whatever, types of stories. I've gone all the way back to the origin. This is a fucking awful, awful, and recent murder.

• 19:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And you can't, tell them why you can't do it at live shows.

• 19:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, in live shows, well, first of all, we have to have stuff that we can talk about and riff about and like, and connect over and kind of go like, wait, what did you just say? Or whatever. And when it's a, especially if it's a recent murder, um, if children are involved, if it's unsolved, if it's, you know, just if it's, if it's just relentless horror.

• 19:31Georgia Hardstark?

  If it hits too close to home.

• 19:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 19:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You just don't wanna, it's horrible.

• 19:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and also, I think everyone together, I mean, we've had times where we've talked about really hard stuff, but then, but it can't just be that way the whole time. So, but when I was looking this up, I was on, I was like, I think it might be worth it. Because there's an element to this that is so fascinating, it's, it kind of transcends the horror of what happened.

• 20:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I think we should do whatever we want when it's you and I.

• 20:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right?

• 20:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And there, Stephen. But at live shows, it's hard to do really horrific murders.

• 20:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yeah, just like, look up, I mean, there is an interesting element to like grieving with 2,000 people at a time, but.

• 20:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Not when they're mad at you.

• 20:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Okay. It's just hard. But, so I can just tell you this.

• 20:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 20:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And then people can listen. I'm just gonna tell you.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No one else is listening.

• 20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Stephen, please put those headphones on more. So this is, this happened in Mount Vernon, Ohio, last November.

• 20:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy, like, as in, four months ago?

• 20:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Four months ago.

• 20:36Georgia Hardstark?

  November, December, January. Oh, shit.

• 20:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Four fucking months ago. Happy 2018, by the way. Did we even say that?

• 20:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's Valentine's Day.

• 20:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Happy Valentine's Day. And then upcoming President's Day. So, on November 10th of last year, uh, when Tina Herman didn't show up for work at Dairy Queen, her boss goes over to her house to check and see what's going on. And when he gets there, he finds it littered with beer cans and covered in blood. It was actually described as looking like a horror movie inside the house.

• 21:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 21:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So, of course, he immediately calls the police. Um, Tina's not in the house, her 13-year-old daughter's not in the house, her 11-year-old son's not in the house, and her friend, whose car is in the driveway, is not in the house. So, immediately, the police start a massive manhunt. There's people walking around on foot, it's in the air, like, the whole, the whole area goes crazy. The next night, Tina Herman's pickup truck is found near the Kenyon College campus. They actually, when they found the pickup truck, they did a lockdown on the school.

• 21:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 21:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they thought maybe the guy was nearby.

• 21:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 21:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, the police interview people that are walking around the area. They don't find anything suspicious. Um, back at Tina Herman's house, the police are processing the scene, find Walmart bags with, with a receipt, a Walmart bag with a receipt inside. And the receipt shows purchasing, um, of garbage bags and a large, heavy-duty tarp.

• 22:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Never good.

• 22:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Not, all the police are like, you know what? I remember this chapter in school. Bad fucking news. So they go to that Walmart that's on the receipt, they check their surveillance video, they timed the receipt, and on it, they, it clearly shows a very, um, a young, not very young, but a young, brown-haired man, probably in his early 30s, buying these items at the store. And on the video, they can also see when he leaves, they see him drive by in his Yaris.

• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yaris? I was not expecting that.

• 22:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. There are, a lot of people drive Yarises proudly, and this guy was one of them. So he, it's all like right there on the tape. So the cops go to the DMV, they search the records, they cross-check whatever.

• 22:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yarises.

• 22:55Karen Kilgariff?

  They, they go to all the Yaris owners.

• 22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Cross-check Yaris.

• 22:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They arrest all of them for bad taste. I'm joking. Oh, my God. Onslaught of Yaris emails.

• 23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone, I know it's a good car.

• 23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you? I bought this with my own money. Although, I have to tell you, my friend, Tisha and I, we bought, I bought my Honda Fit at the same time she bought her Yaris. And she was trying to decide between the two. And I was always like, you gotta go with this Honda Fit. And she was like, nope, I think I'm gonna go with the Yaris. And I was just like, I felt so like, it was like.

• 23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Smug.

• 23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  UCLA versus USC. It's just like, goodbye.

• 23:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not, we're not on the same team anymore.

• 23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I haven't spoken to her since.

• 23:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That's intense.

• 23:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Just kidding.

• 23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 23:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how deep this Yaris shit goes with me. Okay. So, they find out, through the DMV records and his driver's license, this man is Matthew Hoffman. He's a 30-year-old unemployed tree trimmer. Then, once they see the pictures, one of the officers goes, I fucking talked to that guy up at the college when we found the truck.

• 23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Nah-uh.

• 23:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 23:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, one of the people he questioned?

• 23:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, he was right nearby. So they're like, call everybody, we're doing this.

• 24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Gather the trip, you know, circle the wagons.

• 24:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Circle the troops. Circle the wagons is what most cops say when they think they have a person.

• 24:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Gather the, gather the wagons, circle the troops.

• 24:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Gather our friends and let us go out together and fight crime.

• 24:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 24:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So, they fucking send the SWAT team to this guy's house. And, uh, so this is, this basically takes four days. So, four days after the family's found missing, the cops kick his, I, I don't know how it happened.

• 24:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Kick it.

• 24:32Karen Kilgariff?

  The cops kick down the fucking door. Uh, Matthew Hoffman is sleeping on the couch inside, in the living room. And, are you ready?

• 24:43Georgia Hardstark?

  No, your face looks unhappy.

• 24:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's just, it's not horrifying, but it's this. They find the entire living room is filled with leaves.

• 24:53Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Huge pile of leaves.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Leaves.

• 24:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Leaves. Um, piled so high that the police feared bodies might be buried underneath them.

• 25:04Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck?

• 25:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So many fucking leaves. Mount Vernon Police Detective Craig Feeney told the Columbus Dispatch, so much runs through your mind, what if somebody's hiding under that pile? Or in this case, I thought, what if that's where he's hiding the bodies?

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck? Leaves.

• 25:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Leaves. They walk down the hall to the bathroom.

• 25:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No, don't do it.

• 25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You wanna pull up these pictures? I brought pictures for you.

• 25:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 25:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-huh. This is how I found this story. And it stopped me so cold. I was just like, what in the fuck are we doing?

• 25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is the bathroom.

• 25:39Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no.

• 25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm showing you the picture.

• 25:41Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  The walls of the bathroom are lined with plastic shopping bags filled with leaves. And it looks insulated, like, we'll post this for you guys.

• 25:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It looks like insulation, like, before you put on the drywall, you put bags, let's say, Kmart, and thank you, thank you, thank you. And of, like, perfectly filled bags of leaves.

• 26:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfectly spaced, perfectly hung, each one right up, same width, same depth of, you know, it's not like sloppy. Bags of leaves hung on the wall.

• 26:12Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 26:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Piles of leaves on the ground.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  How have I never heard of this?

• 26:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it just happened, I think. Oh, and so that's, you saw it?

• 26:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, it's, it's not even like, it's just leaves, legitimate. It's not dirt, and it's not gravel. It's just leaves.

• 26:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And isn't that something that's absolutely from like a David Fincher movie?

• 26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because it's one of those things where it's like, it doesn't mean anything, but it's so creepy.

• 26:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 26:38Georgia Hardstark?

  As it is.

• 26:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like the moths in Silence of the Lambs.

• 26:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Where you're like, it's just moths. It's not that big of a deal.

• 26:44Georgia Hardstark?

  People collect insects, I guess.

• 26:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, you know, a bit. They're touched.

• 26:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But when that moth lands next to her, and when she's like, may I use your phone, please? Um, I always have to get one of those in there. Okay, so, uh, finally, they go down into the basement. The basement, there's a door closed, and it's barricaded with this big sewing machine cabinet thing. When they break down the door, they get inside, they find Tina Herman's 13-year-old daughter alive. She's bound and gagged, and she's laying on a makeshift bed of leaves.

• 27:20Georgia Hardstark?

  This dude loves leaves.

• 27:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's so, and it's this dank, creepy basement, obviously. She's been raped, and she was wearing a plastic bag with holes cut for legs, like a diaper. So creepy.

• 27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 27:34Karen Kilgariff?

  He's arrested, taken into custody.

• 27:36Georgia Hardstark?

  How the fuck did I not see this?

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 27:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Twitter's algorithms are really disappointing me.

• 27:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I was so, like, this was one of those ones where I was just like, I don't know, I think it's where, I think this is the kind of thing that people that are interested in true crime, when you hear a story where you're like, sorry, what are we doing? Like, what is this?

• 27:55Georgia Hardstark?

  But like, I was in Columbus with you, and I was like, looking up Columbus. Murders to do for the show and I didn't fucking see this.

• 28:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 28:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, go on.

• 28:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I feel like it was breaking news. Most of the articles that I found to tell you about this were they were waiting for like basically, once they found the girl, they still didn't know where the family was and they still didn't know. They were like, we still have three people missing. Thank God she's well. And they, and just so you guys know, they, they did print her name when they first reported on the story. Then when they realized she was a sexual assault victim, they stopped printing her name. So that's why I'm not saying her name.

• 28:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're questioning Matthew Hoffman. He's not saying anything. They said that this reporter that was writing this said that these stories are from the Columbus Dispatch and also from the Denver Post. But they say there's hours of footage of police trying to question him and him just not saying a word. And then finally, uh, he tells the police that he wants to confess because he has a bad dream about being at a food processing plant.

• 28:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm. So he tells police he opened up, in the dream, he opened up a trash bag at the food processing plant and he saw cut up body parts and he got a knot in his stomach and it all quote unquote, came back to him. And so finally, he confesses to the murder of Tina Herman, her 11 year old son, Cody, and her friend Stephanie Spring, whose car was in her driveway.

• 29:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 29:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He tells police that he waited in the woods across the street from Tina Herman's house the night before. He was up in a tree, leaves, unemployed tree trimmer. He's got a tree issue. He's up in a tree. He watches the house all night. At nine in the morning, he sees Tina Herman leave the house. So he thinks the house is empty. And the garage door doesn't go down all the way. So he sees his, this is his chance to slip in. He goes into the house. He's in, he, he told police.

• 29:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we know how, or is this gonna come up, like how he knew who they were? He just, it was just a random?

• 30:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, he had already been arrested once before for burglarizing a house by slipping into an open garage door. So when he told police, he actually had only gone in to burglarize the house, they believed that it was basically an interrupted burglary because he had done it once before and only burgled the house.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 30:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's other extenuating circumstances in his life that are different on this one. But basically Tina and her friend Stephanie came back to the house and interrupted him an hour after he broke in. And so he stabbed them both to death.

• 30:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And then he's dismembering their bodies and, and the kids come home from school. So he stabs the 11 year old boy to death in the doorway. The 13 year old daughter runs to her room. He grabs her. He ties her up with an electric fan cord. And he puts her in his truck or in his, I can't, it's, it's really weird because he did this thing where he had a Jeep, but then he also used Tina's truck.

• 31:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's why he's the one that left it at the college and he had gone on foot back somewhere and he was walking back to drive the truck back to her house. And that's when the cops started talking to him. So he had this whole.

• 31:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Play it cool. They didn't even suspect him.

• 31:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 31:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So something is fucking wrong with this dude.

• 31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the old psychopath. They don't get nervous. They don't, they can look somebody in the eye and be like, yeah, I'm, I'm just here on the bike path. Chilling out. Um, yeah. So what had happened is he put these dismembered bodies and the little girl, they don't think that the girl saw the house. Like maybe she was blindfolded or something because she didn't know anything about.

• 31:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Her mom and her brother died.

• 31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  No, she didn't know. She just knew she was kidnapped.

• 31:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Baby.

• 31:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So he dropped her off at his house, put her in that basement, um, then left. He drove to the Kokosing, I'm sure I'm saying it wrong, the Kokosing Wildlife Area, which was apparently he's a big outdoorsman and he, uh, like went there a lot and camped out a lot. And, you know, liked trees a lot. Um, he, with a rope and pulley system,

• 32:29Karen Kilgariff?

  he pulled their body parts up and put them into a 60 foot hollow tree.

• 32:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And hid them there. So.

• 32:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. That like wouldn't even cross my mind.

• 32:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. No, no, no, no. It's like, it's, it's beyond the perfect and most like obscure hiding place. The police were like, if we didn't make the deal, because he said, I'll tell you where the bodies are if you don't give me the death penalty. The police were like, if we didn't do that, we would have never found these bodies.

• 33:00Georgia Hardstark?

  My mind because I have this, you know, this in mind of like, uh, what, like where are all the bodies? Like there are over the whole globe, there are bodies hidden in crazy forests and weird places. And that wouldn't even fucking cross my mind. Now I have a whole nother fucking thing to worry about.

• 33:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also because it's up so high that like it's all this premeditation. It's this plan. It's this like everything about it. And then it also makes me go like, oh, who put Bella in the witch home?

• 33:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's that weird, like the tree thing. It's real.

• 33:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh God, now I have a whole nother thing to worry about.

• 33:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's so crazy. We're gonna lump it right into just the forest issue that we always do.

• 33:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Karen Kilgariff?

  File it under that.

• 33:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's just not gonna be buried this time.

• 33:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right. Basically, he planned to then, once he went and picked that truck up, he was gonna take it back to her house, burn the house down and like get rid of all the evidence. That was his plan.

• 33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he told police that he also planned to, he said he was really nice to the daughter and that he planned to just keep her for a little while. He was gonna, he, they played video games. They read books. They watched movies. He, he gave her hamburgers, blah, blah, blah. And then he was just gonna let her, eventually let her run away. She'd be home by Christmas. This is what he told the fucking police. Like he had this whole fantasy that he was actually a really, he was a good guy and he was.

• 34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And he didn't wanna do these things, but he was putting this, what a fucking dick.

• 34:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also just mental illness gone beyond rapid. Like just untreated, terrible, you know, whatever. So, um, essentially, so they have, of course, these newspapers have interviewed the neighbors and they, this guy has so many neighbors, it's amazing. And they all have something to say. One of the neighbors said, there's only two trees near this guy's house. So she's neighbor, Jeanette Columber said, he can't have possibly got that many leaves from that tree. So he has all leaves in here from somewhere.

• 35:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we know what the deal with the leaves are?

• 35:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  He's just obsessed with them?

• 35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It's like there was a, they did interview, and I think this is from the, um, the Columbus Dispatch. They interviewed a guy named Dr. N. G. Beryl, who is the director of the New York Center for Neuropsychology and Forensic Behavioral Science. That guy says, you would have to talk to this guy to understand what the connection is. But it's clear that this guy is mentally ill beyond what we associate with normal serial killers or murderers or psychopaths because normally serial killers are not technically mentally ill. They have these character disturbances, but they know what's happening and they know that they're doing wrong. They like it. And that's part of the reason they're doing, they get pleasure and gratification from how the terrible things they're doing

• 35:51Karen Kilgariff?

  and the torture that they are inflicting on other people. He thinks that this guy had some other thing happening and there was like obviously lots of other issues at hand.

• 36:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It, it's so fucking nuts. So, uh, the neighbor, let's see, so Jeanette said, we, I don't know where those leaves could have come from because there's no trees around here. Then a neighbor, a neighbor named Henderson Butcher says that Matthew Hoffman was friendly, but he used to play around the trees a lot, around there a lot. He'd throw ropes up in the trees and had like a hammock up in there. So in some part of the neighborhood that did have trees, he would go in and be in them all the time.

• 36:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, fine.

• 36:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Don't, fine then.

• 36:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Fine, that's fine.

• 36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Just don't, just go do that.

• 36:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Karen Kilgariff?

  A lot of people like trees. Donna Davis, uh, D A W N A, my favorite spelling of Donna ever. It's all the good seventies names combined into one name. She was another next door neighbor. And she said that she told her children to stay indoors when Matthew Hoffman was outside.

• 36:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's chill.

• 36:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And she said that he had moved in alone a year before. And that his girlfriend had lived with him temporarily and then she moved out a month before the murders.

• 37:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And she said, she, this is what she said to the Denver Post, he'd sit up and listen to us up in a tree. He had a hammock and he would just sit there and listen to us.

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my.

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  He was just different. He was very different. And.

• 37:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 37:26Karen Kilgariff?

  She said that he walked to Foundation Park almost every day and was a quote, nature person who collected leaves. So I guess Foundation Park was a park, the park nearby that the other neighbor's talking about.

• 37:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And he would just go up in there. Um, also his house was in foreclosure. And it had been, uh, it started in January. So he was, I think at the end of like a serious, probably psychotic break.

• 37:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He makes that huge confession.

• 37:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And, oh, he also killed the fucking family dog.

• 38:01Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 38:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So once he makes the confession and he said, he asked the investigator, if I write down the location of the bodies, um, he hadn't given, he'd given away the location yet. And he said, uh, if I write these down, will, can I then make a fake, like attempt to escape and you shoot me? And the, and the cop was like, no, we're not gonna do it that way. And so then he wouldn't talk. He wouldn't tell them where they, the bodies were for two full days. And then he finally,

• 38:36Karen Kilgariff?

  he finally told them that whole story that I just told you. And the police, of course, when they saw it, were just like, yeah, we had to, we had to make this deal with him because we would have never known.

• 38:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 38:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So in the end, uh, Matthew Hoffman pled guilty to 10 felonies, including aggravated murder and rape, and he was given a life sentence without the possibility of parole. And the Knox County Prosecutor, John Thatcher, said, um, that this Knox County has never seen a case like this before. It has to rank in Ohio history as one of the worst homicide cases ever.

• 39:13Georgia Hardstark?

  My favorite murder history too.

• 39:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 39:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude, so like, I thought those leaves would like have something about. Like he buried the bodies and had to put the leaves somewhere.

• 39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's no, yeah, like directly. It's just, he is, but that psychiatrist that they talked to said, you know, obviously this is all, it's his, he has some kind of a delusion and some kind of obsession. So in his mind, somewhere in his mind, and he would be the only person that would be able to explain what that connection is. But right now, there's nobody that can say, oh, he did trees because murder because of trees and da, da, da. But like, just coming upon a picture of a living room filled with fucking leaves.

• 39:55Georgia Hardstark?

  The bathroom is more troubling to me of just perfect bags lined up and like whatever stapled to the wall.

• 40:03Karen Kilgariff?

  It's almost like inverted hoarders, like the same feeling I had the first time I saw hoarders, but it's organized and only leaves.

• 40:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And on the wall.

• 40:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you gotta be like, what happened?

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  What's going on?

• 40:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell me everything now.

• 40:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Meanwhile, it's a grown man that climbs and plays in trees.

• 40:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Who like bought, but was able to buy a house and have a girlfriend and like, how, I don't, it's so crazy and plan the disposal of bodies in a really smart way.

• 40:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Well, yes, because once he was in it, it was like, that is the truth, like that, um, that psychologist that gave the, or psychiatrist, whatever he was, that gave the difference. It's like, yes, he was mentally ill clearly, but he also knew what he did was wrong, covered it up. Like, yes, he, he had, there was something going on, but you can't, he, it's the insanity defense I don't think could apply because he, he covered up and hid those bodies and hid a girl.

• 41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And raped a fucking girl. Like, you know, this wasn't some kind of like, I went all over the place. This isn't like Richard Chase, the Sacramento Vampire where you're like, what the fuck are you doing, dude?

• 41:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. God damn it.

• 41:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway, that's the Matthew Hoffman case of Mount Vernon.

• 41:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, I don't know how I would have reacted on stage to this.

• 41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I mean, it would have felt like this.

• 41:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, we're just like, ugh.

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man. Well, mine isn't much happier.

• 41:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 41:35Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's, but it's interesting.

• 41:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 41:38Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 41:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all we ask.

• 41:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all we need from you, people. You're not. What?

• 41:43Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 41:43Georgia Hardstark?

  This is our job. Okay.

• 41:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's a dark one. We are back. Karen, do you have any updates?

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Only that Matthew Hoffman is still serving his life sentence at Toledo Correctional Institution, and he remains ineligible for parole, and that's it.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 42:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. This is an episode where we both just do terrible stories.

• 42:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Let's go right into Georgia's. It's the story about little Gregory.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 42:20Speaker 01

  We help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants. 911 Nashville returns.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 42:28Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 42:32Speaker 03

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues for Bible.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 42:46Speaker 00

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• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, this is one I hadn't ever heard of.

• 43:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 43:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Even though it's basically the, like, the French Jamboné.

• 43:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 43:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you heard of this one?

• 43:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Madeleine McCann?

• 43:55Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's the French Madeleine McCann.

• 43:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. An actual French citizen.

• 43:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's English.

• 44:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 44:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the, it's the Madeleine McCann Jamboné.

• 44:04Karen Kilgariff?

  En français.

• 44:05Georgia Hardstark?

  In France.

• 44:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it. France bread, France dressing.

• 44:09Georgia Hardstark?

  With a side of France. This is l'affaire de petite Gregory, or the case of little Gregory.

• 44:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 44:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Already awful.

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's one of France's most high-profile murders. So in 1981, in the small village of, uh, near Volonne in eastern France, 26-year-old Jean-Marie Villemans is promoted to foreman at the car parts factory where he works. So after his promotion, he, Jean-Marie and his wife Christine, who's 24, like so young, right?

• 44:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 44:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Start receiving threatening anonymous phone calls from a person who knows a shit ton about their family, um, and he calls himself, uh, the Raven.

• 45:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 45:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:03Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So this person is calling threatening, he has, this person has a horse voice, or it's a woman disguising her voice. I listened to one of the recordings from way back when, and it sounds like a fucking woman to me, for sure.

• 45:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it super creepy?

• 45:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's not even creepy. They're having a conversation.

• 45:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 45:21Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. So, um, the person is angry with Jean-Marie. Once Jean-Marie had been promoted, they think he's putting on airs, he's got a lot of money, he's not joining the union. And so a lot of the articles about this and like every video is in French.

• 45:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 45:39Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's really hard to get information. I had to do a lot of Google translation bullshit. So some of it might be off. Like the Raven thing, it's called the crow in a lot of different, like, translations.

• 45:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is a totally different horrible death.

• 45:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 45:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Always ask me for French stuff, because I took, I took all the way up through French, too.

• 46:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So Volonne, Volanges is, Volanges?

• 46:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Volanges.

• 46:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. There's some fucked up things here.

• 46:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So they're pissed off at, at Jean-Marie. The Villemans, they alert the police and they begin recording the phone calls. And so at that point, the phone calls stop and instead, threatening letters start coming.

• 46:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think the Raven knew the phone calls were being recorded?

• 46:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it sounds like someone who was close to the family.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So maybe even knew.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a mole.

• 46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's totally a mole. So these threatening letters start coming in. There are these rambling letters written in quote, longhand and low-class slang.

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 46:45Georgia Hardstark?

  The letters are signed the Raven and say such things as, I'll have all your hides, and I hate you so much, the day you die, I will spit on your grave. And it's sent to the whole family, like, you know, the grandparents and all these things.

• 46:58Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 46:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So a window of the house is broken in the Villemans' house while Christine is at home alone with the couple's young son named Gregory.

• 47:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 47:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And also, all the tires are slashed on the family cars. So someone is threatening them, and it's a small town, and the person knows a lot about them. The harassment goes on for three years.

• 47:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 47:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, without the Villemans or the police having any idea who was behind it. And then on October 16th, 1984, at around 5:30 PM, Christine, who's inside doing some ironing, goes out to bring Gregory in.

• 47:36Georgia Hardstark?

  He's four years old at this point, and she had left him outside to play in the sand beside their house, and he's not there.

• 47:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God.

• 47:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And it gets worse. She gets in her car to drive around the small town, looking for him, thinking maybe he just wandered off. But at that point, Jean-Marie's brother receives a call at work from an unidentified person telling him, I have taken the boy.

• 47:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So a search begins, but by 9:30 that same night, Gregory is found in the Volonne River, four miles from his home.

• 48:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God.

• 48:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So this is like, think, there's so many similarities to Jean-Bené case in this. So little Gregory, he's a sweet boy. There's this photo of him in the same way that the photo of Jean-Bené looking all smiley and beautiful is, you know, known to us for ages. This photo of Gregory is the same thing. He's a sweet, smiling boy with messy curly hair, little four-year-old. He's found, bound hand and foot, he's fully dressed. There's a photo taken at the scene by a journalist. It's a roped firefighter, holding in his arms and like taking Gregory out of the river.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  He's fully dressed in his blue anorak, dark green velvet trousers and his like beanie still on his head.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's published in the press the next day and it traumatizes all of France and everyone becomes obsessed with this case.

• 49:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So, uh, he's dead. Did I say that?

• 49:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I mean, yeah.

• 49:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You figured. Okay. The next day, Christine and Jean-Marie receive an anonymous letter that says to Jean-Marie addressed to him, "I hope you die of grief, boss. Your money can't give you back your son. Here is my revenge, you stupid bastard."

• 49:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy fuck.

• 49:30Georgia Hardstark?

  In the same way that the JonBenet fucking letter was, it's so similar, right?

• 49:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember?

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. But that was a ransom, a fake ransom letter.

• 49:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But it was like, "Your money can't help you."

• 49:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Oh, that's true.

• 49:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 49:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Like, "I'm jealous of your riches."

• 49:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Okay. So the investigation doesn't fucking start well. The lead investigator put on the case, uh, he's the only investigating magistrate in the district. He's 32-year-old Jean-Michel Lambert. It's his very first investigation.

• 50:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 50:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Thirty-two.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you, I wouldn't trust a 32-year-old to watch my fucking purse for five minutes.

• 50:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude.

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, Stephen. How old are you? Thirty.

• 50:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck. Wait a second, my wallet's gone. Stephen! Uh, no, that's too young.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Too young.

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You need experienced people.

• 50:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a big fucking difference. You need people, when it's an important thing, people have to know what they're doing. They have to have experience. They can't be in a state of, "I need to prove myself."

• 50:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's exactly right. That's, it's, it's less like, "I don't know what I'm doing", than, "I don't know what I'm doing and I need to act like I know what I'm doing."

• 50:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 50:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So I'm going to fucking overdo it.

• 50:39Karen Kilgariff?

  "I can't listen."

• 50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's exactly what happens.

• 50:41Karen Kilgariff?

  "You can't help me. Oh, yah, yah, yah."

• 50:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it's the same thing with the JonBenet, when they sent the young inexperienced cops on Christmas fucking day.

• 50:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 50:50Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. So, 32-year-old Jean-Michel Lambert, first investigation. First of all, he fails to secure the crime scene. And he also doesn't order a full autopsy. So the autopsy has been criticized forever because it was incomplete and sloppy. So they don't know, there's no bruises on the body. Pathologists attribute the death to drowning and contact with the cold water. They're not totally sure. They disagree whether he had been drowned in the river or in tap water.

• 51:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 51:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the lung, the water in his lungs contained none of the microscopic organisms that one would find in a river.

• 51:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Ew, that's awful.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. But they didn't do enough. But, but Lambert was like, kind of trying to spare the parents by not making them over autopsy. Poor Gregory.

• 51:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't work that way.

• 51:36Georgia Hardstark?

  No, unfortunately.

• 51:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, ultimately.

• 51:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So from the beginning, suspicion falls on the family of Jean-Marie, the father. His parents, brothers, aunts, uncles, and cousins all live nearby. And when Jean-Marie is promoted to foreman, way back when, um, some of the family members had been unhappy about it. So they think that the person who was writing the letters, the raven, and the killer, might be part of his family.

• 52:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Cut out of like jealousy, basically?

• 52:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And he has a big family that all lives in this neigh, in this area.

• 52:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 52:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So, um, police force hundreds of, 140 members of the Villemann family to take handwriting and dictation tests to compare them to the letters and phone calls that have been going on.

• 52:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 52:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Hundred and forty.

• 52:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 52:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, they copied pages of the writing, including the text of the last message from the raven. And after, a month after Gregory's murder, the 15-year-old sister-in-law of Jean-Marie's cousin, so Jean-Marie, the dad of Gregory, his cousin, whose name is Bernard LaRoche, his cousin's sister-in-law, this is confusing, who's 15 years old, so she's just like nerdy, red-headed, 15-year-old, totally early eighties, like not much, maybe a Duran Duran shirt on, but like no makeup. She's not like, yuck, crock or whatever.

• 52:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Jean jacket. I see her. I can see her.

• 52:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  A comb holding one side of her hair back.

• 53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but like really nerdy comb.

• 53:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh.

• 53:03Karen Kilgariff?

  A math comb?

• 53:05Georgia Hardstark?

  You know.

• 53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's a ruler.

• 53:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-huh.

• 53:09Georgia Hardstark?

  She, so she's 15-year-old, 15 years old. She comes forward and tells investigators that the cu, that the cousin, her, her brother-in-law, who's married to her sister, 29-year-old Bernard LaRoche, is the murderer.

• 53:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, fuck.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  She tells them that the day Gregory was killed, she had been picked up by Bernard from high school and taken to the Villemann's house. They picked up Gregory and headed for the river. And then they parked and Bernard went off with him and came back alone.

• 53:36Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 53:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's fucking pinning it all on her sister's husband.

• 53:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 53:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Who's this like smiley, big, boisterous-looking, mustachioed, messy eighties hair dude.

• 53:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Played by, like, a young, um, what's it, Roseanne's husband on Roseanne.

• 53:54Karen Kilgariff?

  John Goodman?

• 53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a young John Goodman.

• 53:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I was thinking Vincent D'Onofrio.

• 53:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No, not, more jovial, looking.

• 54:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, got it.

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Good ti, a good time guy.

• 54:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 54:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But like, why are you smiling inappropriately in this photograph?

• 54:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 54:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, there's a photograph of the three, of the, the cousin, his wife, and his wife's, and, uh, the young Muriel. Her name's Muriel Boyle. There's a photograph of the three of them. And I just want to know if it's taken before or after the murder because it's inappropriately smiling and creepy.

• 54:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 54:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 54:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 54:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, ugh.

• 54:29Karen Kilgariff?

  There's something about it.

• 54:30Georgia Hardstark?

  French people are screaming. They're, what they think about really happened. And I want to know.

• 54:33Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, "Actually, we're supposed to smile like this way."

• 54:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So why are you smiling? Okay. Um...

• 54:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I knew, I used to work with an oversmiler who actually, I'm positive, was a sociopath.

• 54:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they don't know when it's appropriate, so they just do it the whole time.

• 54:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And they, it's this thing of, it's almost like that weird hypnosis kind of thing where it's just like, "Yes, everything's fine."

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Like they're trying to control you with their mouth.

• 54:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:59Karen Kilgariff?

  With their teeth.

• 55:00Georgia Hardstark?

  They learn that people, they learn that people mimic things, so they just fucking do it.

• 55:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, like, "Here, this is friends, friends, friends."

• 55:07Georgia Hardstark?

  See?

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. See? Where's like someone always trying to show you that they're happy and smiling.

• 55:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Means they're covering something.

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And you know inherently, but you're like, "But they're, they seem so happy."

• 55:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I have to mimic what they're doing because they're setting the sta, this, they're setting the tone of the room, which is, "We love everything."

• 55:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And then when you get older and stop giving a shit about anything, you realize like, you don't have to do that. Like, when I stop, when I stop being that way, which I am inherently like a person who will mimic a person's happiness because I'm just uncomfortable that way.

• 55:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And I don't do it, then I'm like, "Oh, this isn't right."

• 55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to be here.

• 55:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, well, cause it's like, what is, why is this person trying to control me this hard? Like, what is, what do they not want me to be paying attention to?

• 55:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean...

• 55:52Georgia Hardstark?

  This is that photograph.

• 55:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oy.

• 55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  In a nutshell, from the eighties.

• 55:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 55:56Georgia Hardstark?

  With a mustache. Stephen!

• 55:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Um... Wait, are you French, Stephen?

• 56:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-huh. Oui.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-huh.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oui. Okay. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So she says that, blah, blah, blah. And then, okay, so Bernard, this guy Bernard, the cousin, and Jean-Marie had played together as children. So they're from the same clan. It's like a clan more than a family. It's almost like Fargo, that second season when they're like, the big crime fight, criming family.

• 56:26Karen Kilgariff?

  The crimy family?

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  They didn't fight crime. They crimed. Um, but they had grown apart over the years. And Bernard was an unkempt, often profane man with a mustache. And he and his wife, they also had a four-year-old child, but he was, had a learning disability.

• 56:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 56:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So they both had four-year-old children. But Gregory was this beautiful, smiling, happy baby that everyone loved. And Jean-Marie had been promoted. He was getting all this money. His dad was in charge of the plant. Well, meanwhile, Bernard seemed to have a shitty fucking life.

• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 56:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So, uh, they didn't socialize anymore with Jean-Marie and Christine, but, so he wouldn't have known about the family a lot, enough to write these raven letters. But one of Jean-Marie's brothers was good friends with LaRoche, so he would have known.

• 57:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, da-da-da-da-da. He didn't like the Vil, the, uh, Villemans. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. So, at, so, so this chick, Muriel, is like, "My fucking brother-in-law did it. I'm 15. What's up?"

• 57:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:27Georgia Hardstark?

  At the spot where Muriel said, uh, they had stopped, the investigators find a, it's a vial of insulin and a syringe they find on the ground.

• 57:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 57:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Um... They make the investigators think that Gregory had been put into a hypoglycemic coma before being thrown into the river. Okay. So that made him unable to, so he unable to. Do any. Right. And he was also tied up. Yeah. So, but, but there had been no toxicology report because the autopsy wasn't done correctly. So they didn't know, they didn't look for needle marks, anything like that. And so Muriel says she wasn't aware of what her uncle was doing. She had just been sitting in the car, but it turns out that Muriel's mother, Janine, was a diabetic and that Muriel was her insulin injector. Oh. So she might've been more involved than she said she was. Cause she would know how to do it.

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or she would even have provided them with it. But then why would she fucking go to the cops and, and say he did it? Like if she's involved? That's a great question. Why would she do it? No, no, it's, why would she do it anyways? There's a lot of questions here. Well, yeah, I mean, like, that's the first and most. She's 15 and feels, and as an adult and knows there's right and wrong. And your fucking bullshit fights with families don't matter. Yeah. Because that's such a huge, it's such a stretch from, I hate my rich cousin who gets everything to I'm going to kill a child. Like not even kill your cousin, but to, to take away the child is such a, I want you to suffer specifically. Yes. The most crazy. It's so awful.

• 59:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So, um, they test Bernard's handwriting and experts say he had written two of the poison pen letters, including the one sent the day after the murder. So they say it's, it's Bernard. It matches. It matches him. And this is in the time where they knew nothing about handwriting analysis. Like that's back in the Zodiac times where they're like, nah, it's not him. It's almost like it's in a time when they thought they knew everything about handwriting analysis. And now we know that they know nothing about handwriting. You know what I mean? It's like the opposite where they're like, you can tell everything from that. And now like, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. Right. You're making all kinds of insane assumptions. Exactly. And you sound really fucking smart. Yeah. Right. So Bernard is arrested and then Muriel gets, the, the 15 year old gets

• 59:50Georgia Hardstark?

  sent back to her family's house and a couple of days later retracts her entire statement. What? Everyone is like, Muriel like was bullied by her family into retracting that statement. Oh. Everyone thinks that. Okay. How dare you turn on the family? How dare you? On the brother in law, this, you know, there's like insane, like family, like going back probably hundreds of years within this small community with this family. Right. Or these families. Uh, and against the prosecutor's advice, Lambert, the police

• 1:00:27Georgia Hardstark?

  investigating 31 year old dude. So the police investigator, even though, um, the, the public prosecutor's like, don't fucking do this. They let Bernard go. Because she retracts her statement and they're like, well, then let's let her go. But then that's it. Well. There's, cause then there's no evidence that he's involved. Well, they were saying there's other evidence, right? So why wasn't he held? Oy, oy. Okay. On the day of his release, Jean Marie, Gregory's dad, uh, in front of a bunch of journalists vows that he would kill his cousin Bernard. Of course he did. Right. He vows to kill Bernard. To journalists. To journalists. Oh.

• 1:01:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The LaRoche family tries to get police protection, but the police are like, nope. Oh, no. Nope. You can't have it.

• 1:01:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And so true to his fucking word, on March 29th, Jean Marie waits outside his cousin's house. And when he gets home, pulls up, he fucking approaches his cousin Bernard and shoots him with a hunting rifle. Oh, fuck. Bernard dies. Oh, my God. The cousin dies. Goodbye, John Goodman. He's out of the picture now. John Goodman, Jean Goodman? Jean Goodman. Is dead. It's like if fucking John Ramsey had shot, you know, his bo, it's just insane. Yes. These steps people are taking. Also, i- it seems like reverse police work where it's like, let them go, don't

• 1:02:01Georgia Hardstark?

  investigate, like, don't get details going. Like everything is, it feels like. Arrest someone now, quickly and then let them go. And then try this. And it's just like, it's amping everyone up. Yes. And especially small town, like anywhere in the world. Like Boulder. Yes. You know? Exactly. Small town life where everyone knows everyone's business and there's gossip and there's pressure. Exactly. So Bernard dies, Jean Marie immediately turns himself in, uh, and he's sentenced to five years for the killing. Whoa. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lambert, the police dude is like, I know who fucking did this.

• 1:02:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll tell you who fucking did this. And he starts to build a case against Gregory's mother, Christine. Whoa.

• 1:02:51Georgia Hardstark?

  For the murder of her son. At this point, she's six months pregnant too. Let's add that in for fun. Cause this is a fucking Lifetime movie. Yes. He's saying that the mother killed her son. Uh huh. Okay. This 33 year old fucking prosecutor investigator. He's been 31, 32 and 33. They're all the same. Everyone knows. Well, time is passing, actually. Right. Okay. So three locals who worked with Christine swore that they saw her at the post office on the day before Gregory's death, when the revenge letter had been posted, which is like, I don't think it was true, but also who gives a fucking shit, you know? Like they're saying they saw her mail the revenge letter?

• 1:03:34Georgia Hardstark?

  They're saying they saw her the day the ma, the revenge letter was mailed at the post office. Okay. All right. Uh, graphologists argued that there was an 80% chance that she was the letter's author. So again, with the fucking JonBenet ransom letter. Right. And we're all like, right? But then they'd already said that he. Right. But he signed, they said, yeah. Yeah. They already said that the cousin was. Right. They're just changing it per this. Okay.

• 1:04:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And a string that was identical to, uh, what was used to tie up Gregory is found in the cellar of the, uh, Vilman's home. Oh, no. But it's like, does that, I don't know. The bag I could have taken it there. That's the, that's the one string they sell in this village. Sure. Also in the Raven's letters, he accuses Christine of killing Gregory. So they start to believe what the fucking Raven is saying, uh, because Gregory had been conceived. So they're saying Christine had been knocked up with Gregory in an extramarital affair. And that's why she killed her son, which ultimately wasn't true, proven to be untrue. Ooh, that's fucked up. Yeah.

• 1:04:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause then they're just floating salacious shit that people love to repeat. And keep in mind this whole time, if you were alive during the JonBenet Ramsey investigation, it is the, the fucking media is going out of their fucking minds. Yeah. You know, front page glossy bullshit in every grocery store. I don't know what they have in France that's equivalent to that. It's going on. Everyone is eating it up and all these crazy theories are being, you know, just thrown about. Yeah. I think it's a, they have one big magazine called Paris Match and, uh, it's just pictures of people smoking and then terrible stories like that. That's what it is. Yeah. It's there. Yeah. Christine is, Christine ends up getting charged with the murder of her son. No fucking way. Why?

• 1:05:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, because it's this guy's idea. Yeah. He's the, the. Lambert. I was gonna say the king of police. He's the French king of police. He is the king. So the king of police Lambert charges Christine with this murder of her son. Fuck. Based on this evidence, places her in a pre-trial detention in July of 1985. In protest, she goes on a fucking 11 day hunger strike and is released. And it isn't until. Sorry. That works? I guess. She's pregnant. Oh, no. Yeah. So she's released and it isn't until, but they also, I think, didn't have any, like anything to hold her on. Right. Cuts to 1993. It isn't until 1993, when the case is taken over by another investigating

• 1:06:15Georgia Hardstark?

  judge, finally someone who's hopefully over 50, Maurice Simon. For real. That she's cleared. So between 1985 and 1993, people are speculating whether or not it's her constantly. And he, and Maurice Simon is like, does some fucking, you know, judgy magic thing, sprinkle something on her. That's like, she's never allowed to be fucking tried for this again. Like. Oh, good. Makes it so she can never be brought up as a suspect again. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing. That's like, isn't that double jeopardy? No, because she had never been brought to trial. Oh, oh, but the, he was just saying like, this is now put to rest. Yeah. You can't bring her up as a fucking suspect again. Seems pretty decent. Yeah. The mother of the dead child. Right. Yeah.

• 1:06:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And like photos of her man at like, at this time are heartbreaking. There's a lot of photos going on and it's so eighties and so sad. Okay. And then in 2000, the year 2000, you've heard of it.

• 1:07:13Karen Kilgariff?

  The case is reopened when Christine's family demands that DNA tests are carried out on the fucking stamps that are in the fucking letters.

• 1:07:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:07:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:07:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Unfortunately, and there's hundreds of these letters, uh, three separate traces of DNA are found, but none of them are identified.

• 1:07:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:07:32Karen Kilgariff?

  For some reason, none of these fucking, mm, mm, mm. Okay. Not much happens until this past June of 2017.

• 1:07:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So we're both fucking.

• 1:07:43Georgia Hardstark?

  We're, we're all about 2017.

• 1:07:44Karen Kilgariff?

  We're parenting this fucking episode.

• 1:07:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So in June, 32 years after Gregory's murder, 32 years, uh, no one has been taken into custody for the murder since 1985, when his mother was fucking taken into custody. So no one has even been a suspect. Three people in connection with the case are taken into custody.

• 1:08:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 1:08:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Ready for this?

• 1:08:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:08:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So, okay, the aunt and uncle of Jean-Marie, Gregory's father, and Bernard, the dead cousin, Jacqueline Jacob, she's 72, and her husband Marcel is 71, are arrested.

• 1:08:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No fucking way.

• 1:08:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking old people.

• 1:08:23Georgia Hardstark?

  They were like in their 40s at the time?

• 1:08:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Thirty, yeah.

• 1:08:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Eighties, nineties.

• 1:08:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Thirty, yeah, 40s. So, okay, it's so fucking confusing. So Marcel Jacob, the, the husband, the dude, is one of the younger brothers of, okay, it's basically Jean-Marie's dad married Marcel's sister.

• 1:08:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:08:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Gregory's great aunt and uncle.

• 1:08:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 1:08:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Um, they're charged with kidnapping and confinement, but not the murder, saying they were responsible for the murder of Gregory, since he would not have died unless he had first been kidnapped. So they think fucking this chick Jacqueline, who's now 72, was the fucking mastermind of this whole entire thing and made Bernard, uh, made, was the, the letter writer and the woman, it sounds like a woman.

• 1:09:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She's the Raven.

• 1:09:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she's the Raven, but they're all involved and all hate this family. And the day of Bernard actually did the murder, but she was like the distraction and the mastermind.

• 1:09:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa. This is like the second season of Fargo.

• 1:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean.

• 1:09:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally like Fargo.

• 1:09:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It really is. Because also it's just that like, what for? What are you doing? Like, what is this plan?

• 1:09:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 1:09:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And why the kid?

• 1:09:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such a.

• 1:09:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Sick.

• 1:09:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like to hurt as much as possible. Also questioned are Albert and Monique Vilman, the parental grandparents of Gregory, 86 and 85 years old. So Gregory's fucking grandparents on his father's side, on Jean-Michel's side, are questioned as well.

• 1:10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, everyone hated Jean, uh, Marie and we're in on this.

• 1:10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Even his own parents?

• 1:10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  They're, I mean, they're questioned.

• 1:10:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So the charges against the great aunt and uncle, uh, follow a modern handwriting and, a modern, thank God, handwriting and linguistic analysis of some 2,000 letters of the Raven letters and voice recordings that lead police to conclude that the authors are a man and a woman.

• 1:10:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:10:28Georgia Hardstark?

  More than a hundred witnesses are also interviewed, some 12,000 pieces of evidence run through, an advanced artificial intelligence program called Anacrime, which sounds fucking so cool, that locates potential suspects at given moments and uncovers inconsistencies in statements and alibis.

• 1:10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  How?

• 1:10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's basically like this person says, I was there, and this person said you were, like, it's, and the pings are from here, and puts them all together, and it's like, whatever they're saying isn't true, there's no way they could have been there.

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's basically based on like how we're digitally and kind of in some way recorded at all times.

• 1:11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even think that at that point, I think it's just based on statements. Who said you were here? Who said you were there? You said you were here.

• 1:11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that makes sense, because they're, they're talking to so many people.

• 1:11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So they put them all together and they're like, this person wasn't where they said they were, based on everyone's testimony.

• 1:11:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And the scary part, scariest part about Anacrime is that there are also those robots that can open doors now. Did you see that video today?

• 1:11:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  There's, that bothered me so much. It bothered me all day long.

• 1:11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't, I didn't watch more than him walking, because it looked like a spider.

• 1:11:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks like a spider, and then there was a part where it turns before it opens the door with a creepy glunk vacuum cleaner tube.

• 1:11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And it does this like click, click, where it moves really fast to one side, and it's so unnatural. Like, it looks very animal-like, and then it goes click, click, and you're like, oh, what are we, I don't even know what this is.

• 1:11:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like we want the end days to come.

• 1:11:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're forcing it quick.

• 1:11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like we're begging it and creating the end days.

• 1:11:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's like some, some really smart guy that loves robots and computers also watched The Terminator too many times, and he's like, we gotta make this happen, guys.

• 1:12:09Georgia Hardstark?

  But he never saw the beginning of The Terminator, like the first scene in the boardroom?

• 1:12:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like, this all looks great.

• 1:12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And he didn't watch the romantic parts, because I argue that The Terminator, the first one, is one of the most romantic movies of all time.

• 1:12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty beautiful.

• 1:12:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  God, and he goes to see his wife and sees her gardening. Is that the right movie?

• 1:12:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I think, yes. When he goes, and he walks by before he knows, like, he's gone.

• 1:12:31Georgia Hardstark?

  He sees something and he's like that, yeah.

• 1:12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, just, you gotta love a guy that keeps a picture with him of the girl that he loves.

• 1:12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I just tell you that term, I wa, I don't know what year it came out in, but it was way too early for me to watch it, and that scene in the boardroom in the beginning with the Terminator just kills everyone, it was so traumatic for me.

• 1:12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet. Yeah, no, that's, it's terr, it's, it's this horrifying.

• 1:12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Horrifying.

• 1:12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing movie.

• 1:12:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good, though.

• 1:12:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I tell you a quick, can I just do a quick sidebar of Valentine's Day?

• 1:13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Always Valentine's Day.

• 1:13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That just reminded me, the picture thing just reminded me. We have family friends named the Mulkeens. Because my, one of my dad's best friends is Kevin Gary, and his sister Marilyn Mulkeen is the woman, remember that high school picture I showed you, where I'm leaning against a ladder and I have almost a unibrow?

• 1:13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Always. Where you look like one of Kelly Bundy's best friends. You look like Kelly Bundy's, like, why Kelly Bundy got into trouble?

• 1:13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. I'm her smoking friend.

• 1:13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so Marilyn Mulkeen was, also, because it's a small town, she also lived next door to my best friend Christine Gooden. So she took Christine's senior portrait, she took mine, she took everybody. She was like a really great photographer. And when we were, I can't remember where we were one time, she told me the story of how her and her husband Tom, like, got, got together. They were, it, like, childhood, he was friends with her, with Kevin, and with their, the boys in their, in the Gary family. They were all on vacation at the Russian River. I think the boys were like 14 or 13, and she was like 11 or 12. And I tell the story because Marilyn died in, um, November of cancer, and it makes

• 1:14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  me super sad, because I hadn't seen her in a long time, and she's truly one of the coolest, she was like one of those cool people.

• 1:14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Of your parents' friends, where you're like, oh, I want to talk to her for five hours.

• 1:14:19Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like, I'm gonna tell you how it is, because no one else is.

• 1:14:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Like, she really was a legit rad lady, and I'm very sad that she's passed away.

• 1:14:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so sorry.

• 1:14:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but, uh, but I still have this story, and I love it so much. So she is a 12-year-old girl, is watching these boys play in roughhouse, and they all, they, they all grab Tom, and, um, who was like, you know, her older brother's cute friend, and they're about to throw him into the Russian River, and so he pulls his wallet out of his back pocket, and he tosses it to Marilyn. He goes, hold that for me, as they throw him into the water, and she catches it, and it falls open in her hands, and he has a picture of her in his wallet. And they were married for 51 years.

• 1:15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is my favorite, that's just a little sidebar Valentine's Day story, because it's my favorite love story of like, when you're a 12-year-old girl, and they're, like, a boy, the idea that a boy would have your school picture in his wallet? Like, you're the girl I, like, love, and then actually, they actually end up married?

• 1:15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  The crush, the crush you have at 12 years old will never, it just never.

• 1:15:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It never burns that bright.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Never.

• 1:15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Again.

• 1:15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's so innocent.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah, and it's also so like idealistic, like you, you know, it's like when you're 12, you don't pick bad boys, you pick like.

• 1:15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, oh, he's nice, or like, he said something nice to me or something.

• 1:15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, or he has freckles or some stupid.

• 1:15:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Some dumb shit, or he's just in the living room. Sometimes it's that, but I love, anyway.

• 1:15:48Georgia Hardstark?

  He's not mean to me like my brother, oh, God.

• 1:15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my favorite Valentine's story, and I just sidebar'd you so hard, sorry.

• 1:15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  But that was beautiful.

• 1:15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good, good.

• 1:15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. Let's get back. Okay, the Jacobs alibi, so the Anacrime's like, beep, boop, bop, I'm a machine, and it, and the, the old folks, the Jacobs alibi are quote, unconfirmed and unsubstantiated. So Anacrime is like, hell, fucking no.

• 1:16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 1:16:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You lying, we're fucking liars.

• 1:16:15Karen Kilgariff?

  We need Anacrime.

• 1:16:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Anacrime, when you're in your 40s, you're fucking lying. Also arrested is fucking Muriel Bull, remember her? The fucking little redhead?

• 1:16:26Karen Kilgariff?

  15-year-old?

• 1:16:26Georgia Hardstark?

  15-year-old? She's arrested at this point for complicity in murder and non-report of a crime. So they're like, you knew more than you were saying at the time.

• 1:16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're finally getting down to cases. However, so she goes on a hunger strike, again, for a few days, whatever. A month after they're arrested, let's go back, remember, remember Jean-Michel Lambert, the 30-whatever-the-fuck-year-old investigator?

• 1:16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Who got taken off of the case?

• 1:16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  In July of 2017, just a few months ago, he's 65 years old, he's found dead in his apartment from suicide.

• 1:17:04Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:17:05Georgia Hardstark?

  A plastic bag over his head. Uh, by 1987, uh, he had been replaced by Maurice, as we said, and Maurice wrote at the time in his personal notebooks that, uh, Lambert had an intellectual disorder, and he said, I am in the midst of a miscarriage of justice and all its horror.

• 1:17:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:17:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, about the accusations against Gregory's mother. Uh, in his suicide note, Lambert proclaims his certainty about the innocence of Bernard, but he says he no longer has the strength to fight. So at this point, he still thinks that, I don't know, the mother is responsible, or whatever the, whatever, who, whatever he thinks that Bernard is not. Uh, guilty. Right. He can't let go of his own first instinctual theory. Right. Yeah. Uh, we also learned several other letters have been sent since the restart of the investigation in June. Prosecutor has been threatened with, uh, death by the Raven. What? The Raven's back? Letters are still being fucking written.

• 1:18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. By 2014, nearly 3,000 press articles, about 50, uh, you know, papers, a TV movie and 15 books have been, have been made about this case and it's still ongoing. And so we will update you when we find out, but that is the case of Le Petit, The Affair of the Petit Gregory, the case of Little Gregory. That is so heavy. How have we never heard of that? I've never heard any of that. I must've seen it late night in one of those listy things that you'd never heard of and saw this photo of this sweet little boy with this, he's so French and cute and sweet and messy little hair and. Horrible.

• 1:18:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just awful. Well, and also just that it sounds like things were so bad, so entrenched that people have just went insane. Like they were surrounded by their family and their competition and their small town bullshit. It's like, you look at this story and you're like, how could this have happened? And then this happened and it's so insane. And then you're like, well, the same thing happened with Jean Benet and I'm still fucking casting aspersions and being like, it was the brother. Of course. Or it was this or it was that. And then the mom dies of cancer and I'm still like, maybe she had something to do with it. Or her letter, the letter looked like her handwriting and. Yep. We're just, we're doing the exact same thing. Because you want some fucking clarity. You just want someone to step forward and go, yes, all this other shit has happened. It's the same with Jack the Ripper. But you

• 1:19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  just want someone to come and go, we finally have the one, we have, who did it? Here's the answer. The answer. Clean, clear, you know, not involving 17 relatives or whatever. Just like, who fucking, whose plan was this and who did it? Well, I, I think, and fucking French people, please let me know what everyone thinks. Cause I have no way of knowing if everyone's like, no, what are you talking about? Everyone knew this person wasn't involved. Right. That I'm saying is guilty. I have no way, you know, I can't give my opinion because I can't fucking understand any of the fucking videos. I don't understand half of what's going on. Half of it. Like literally, there's like five articles in English and like two videos that you can put subtitles on. Bonjour Français. Yeah.

• 1:20:21Georgia Hardstark?

  But faster. They're at a speed of a hundred. Of asking at the speed of a hundred. They're all like.

• 1:20:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't understand any of it, but I want to know. I know. So, well, that would be amazing. If people actually have the like insider scoop. Of here's what we think. Yeah. I think what everyone thinks is that the, that this great aunt and uncle, the great aunt especially is like the teaviest fucking matriarch of the family who planned the whole thing, including alibis and Bernard did it. Fuck. But your own family? It's just dark. I mean, yeah, I think it's just like this anger jealousy situation. Oh, you ending this with showing me those bowling socks again? Cause everything is sad and awful and it's the only light we have in our lives?

• 1:21:11Georgia Hardstark?

  What if I hold up a bowling sock every time things go so, so dark into the human existence of. That's all I want is a bowling sock. Steven, look at it. Steven, look at the bowling sock. Steven was really bent over. He's really bent over just now. Horrifying. Feeling those French feelings. And then we just have to remember these bowling socks. French feelings are stronger than regular feelings.

• 1:21:35Georgia Hardstark?

  God damn, that's awful. I know.

• 1:21:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. Are there updates for this story? Yes. So in 2017, charges filed against Jacqueline and Marcel Jacob and Muriel Bull were dropped within a year due to legal technicalities. In June of 2017, Muriel's cousin Patrick Favor told police that in 1984, her family had physically abused Muriel to get her to recant her testimony against Bernard. Muriel has denied this and accused Patrick of lying. In 2018, she published Breaking the Silence, a book detailing her involvement in the case. In it, she maintains her innocence and doubles down that the police coerced her into implicating Bernard. In January 2020, a French appeals court declared Muriel's 1984 detention by police to be unconstitutional. And because of this, statements Muriel had

• 1:22:27Georgia Hardstark?

  made while in custody had to be removed from the case file. Statements she made while not in custody, however, like her initial allegations against Bernard remain in it. In April 2020, Monique Vilman, Gregory's grandmother, died from COVID-19. She was 88. During the 2017 investigation, investigators alleged that Monique was the author of the threatening letter sent to Judge Maurice Simon in 1990. In October 2025, Jacqueline, under mounting police suspicion that she too authored some of the anonymous letters, was formally indicted on related conspiracy charges. And as of the latest reporting, a French appeals court is expected to decide this month, July 2026, whether these charges

• 1:23:09Georgia Hardstark?

  should be dismissed over statute of limitations concerns. And among the documentaries on this case are 2018's The Curse of the Volanges, which is French, and a 2019 documentary, Who Killed Little Gregory from Netflix? And a dramatization of the case aired as a six-episode French mini-series in 2021 entitled Un Affaire Français or A French Case? All right, let's get into recommendations corner. That's new. That is new. We were trying to change it up a little bit.

• 1:23:44Speaker 07

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:23:56Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:24:00Speaker 03

  Hell, sin swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

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• 1:25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So we're going to end this differently right now. Right? You and I were talking about how I just don't want to keep fucking, we end the episode with thing that makes us happy. And I'm just going to keep saying my cats or that my back doesn't hurt. And I'm fucking sick of myself. Right? So like, we're going to save this for like, what were we gonna either read a thing or? Well, I brought a thing. I have a thing. Okay, great. I tried to actually do something. Great. And I have a recommendation that made, that makes me really happy. So like after this episode, go watch this thing I'm going to tell you about because this is the worst. So great. So this is all new. We're giving it a shot. It's basically, we take the beginning and we're putting it at the end. Cause we decided we front loaded, we front load everything with all, everything we love and are excited about, and then we drain ourselves with horror.

• 1:25:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then it's like, what are you like, well. And then we're staring at each other going, why haven't you gone to the movies? You don't, you guys don't understand, don't know that half the time at the end, when we have to say a thing we're happy about, we have to make Steven cut out 10 minutes of us going, um, I don't know, suitcase, I don't know. Cause it's just so depressing. It's depressing, but also I think that we are afraid to overly plan. We just want to have this be at the most natural conversation possible. I don't like the planey planey of like, anytime I come with something in my pocket, it feels fake and clunky. Yeah. So I always think like, when we get there, something is going to pop into my head that makes. You know what I love? And then, but then you're like, I love hash browns. You're like, I just talked about a dead kid. Yes.

• 1:26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  This feels terrible. It's not enough. It's never enough. No. This is why Elvis Meows at the end of every episode. Yeah. Is because when we did an episode once and we were like, how do we end this? I was like, oh shit, let's do the, like, let's have Elvis Meow. Yes. Let's just start talking about something else entirely. Let's have something. Okay. So that's what we're going to do. Mine is, do you want me to go first? Sure. It's not that great. Do it. It's just a good thing that I like. Great. Same with mine. And fluffy. Okay. Uh, there's this Netflix show, movie. It's a Netflix movie. It's a horror comedy about vampire roommates called What We Do in the Shadows. Yes, girl. Do you know it? Yes. Oh. It's the greatest.

• 1:27:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It is so good. I have had the hardest time not talking to you about it. It's Jermaine from fucking Flight of the Conchords. Jermaine Clement. And is it Takey Watiki? I don't know how to pronounce that guy's name. I panic when I see it. Steven knows.

• 1:27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  TD.

• 1:27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Taika with TD.

• 1:27:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at Steven.

• 1:27:37Georgia Hardstark?

  You're hired again.

• 1:27:39Karen Kilgariff?

  At a lower rate.

• 1:27:40Georgia Hardstark?

  At a lower rate. It is so perfect.

• 1:27:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 1:27:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's basically just like, oh my, it's perfection. Reece Darby has a hilarious, we're werewolves, not swear wolves.

• 1:27:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, it's just so good. I want to cry.

• 1:27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Reece Darby, I, I actually, one day was sitting staring at my TV like, I cannot look at one more true crime, anything. Like, I really hit a wall. And then I went randomly, my DVR recorded Fly to the Conchords, which is almost never rerun.

• 1:28:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, all you need to do is binge watch Fly to the Conchords and you'll be happy.

• 1:28:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I went straight to iTunes and bought both seasons, or four seasons, whatever it is.

• 1:28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I was like, oh, wait a second.

• 1:28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Why haven't I?

• 1:28:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I could watch this over and over for the rest of my life and be happy.

• 1:28:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the best show ever.

• 1:28:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm the hip hop apotamus. My lyrics are bottomless.

• 1:28:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And then nothing. It's the best. There's nothing better.

• 1:28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  There's nothing. Maybe he did. Maybe he did what? He maybe did. He maybe did what? He maybe did. He maybe did. He maybe did. Also, those posters behind Reece Darby in the New Zealand office, Ambassador's office over there are the best.

• 1:28:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's perfection.

• 1:28:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's New Zealand.

• 1:28:50Georgia Hardstark?

  What we do in the shadows is a, is a, is an extension of that.

• 1:28:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:28:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And I think they're gonna bring it to this place we call America and remake it here.

• 1:29:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:29:01Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's gonna be Jermaine and Taika, who's so cute. The other thing is, I want to live in there because they're all hot.

• 1:29:08Karen Kilgariff?

  They're so hot.

• 1:29:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They're all, all the vampires, except for the really old one.

• 1:29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Please go watch it. It's the best show you, movie you've ever seen in your fucking life.

• 1:29:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. If you haven't, it's so goddamn delightful.

• 1:29:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so that made me really fucking happy. I'm gonna watch it over and over again. I told you the time I got to meet the Fly to the Conchords, I opened for them. When I very first started standup again, after I hadn't done it for five years, one of my very first sets was opening for the Fly to the Conchords in Denver.

• 1:29:37Georgia Hardstark?

  While they were like in, in their like shit?

• 1:29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  The, it was the height, I think the show was still on.

• 1:29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it was like, maybe their last season.

• 1:29:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And they were like touring and shit.

• 1:29:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I ate it in a way.

• 1:29:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Were you, were you doing music?

• 1:29:49Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:29:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Were you doing music?

• 1:29:50Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. I was trying to put a comedy set back together. And one of the main problems was that the microphone was, the mic cord was twisted around the mic stand, probably 150 times. Like, there was no way I was getting the mic off the mic stand. So I had to stand there like fucking Steven Wright and deliver not set up punch jokes, like conversational shit. It was awful. I got a terrible review in one of their like local weekly papers where they said, it should, it should have been Kristen Schull. Because she's on the show and she's a Denver, like, local. Yeah. It was a horror show, but all that aside.

• 1:30:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Horrible. Kristen Schull, love you. That's horrible.

• 1:30:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, I did it because I wanted to be around those guys and meet them.

• 1:30:39Georgia Hardstark?

  No, there's no reason why. You shouldn't have done it.

• 1:30:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But, except for that I didn't have an act. But, they were so lovely. And Jermaine Clement, like, in my opinion, we don't have to go on and on about this. And we certainly don't have to debate it. But.

• 1:30:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Jermaine's hotter than, is that what you were gonna say?

• 1:30:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I think Brett McKenzie is the hottest technically.

• 1:31:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:31:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But then.

• 1:31:02Georgia Hardstark?

  But we like a big guy.

• 1:31:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also, when Jermaine Clement walks toward you to say hello, thank you for opening the show for us, a wind kicks up indoors and his hair blew back. There was a thing that happened where I was standing there like, what in the living fuck is coming toward me right now? I was weak in the knees.

• 1:31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, like, if you've seen his David Bowie impressions.

• 1:31:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:31:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You'll just never, there's nobody ever.

• 1:31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's.

• 1:31:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, Vince doesn't listen to this podcast. Look and listen. My husband does not listen to this podcast, so it's fine.

• 1:31:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So let her fly.

• 1:31:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And there was, Vince and I were watching it together and I kept wanting to go, I kept almost saying, because the guy that they turned into, I kept.

• 1:31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that guy's amazing.

• 1:31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  They're so hot. I couldn't do that.

• 1:31:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's weird too, it's weird as American girls, I think, to see hot guys that are acting like sweet and innocent. It's such a strange, not of my era anyway, combination.

• 1:31:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And then they had like, I'm just gonna keep talking about, they had like, they had special effects that, it was this low budget movie, and then these insane special vampire effects.

• 1:32:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:32:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna watch it tonight again.

• 1:32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  They just did it perfectly. It was like a realistic docu-series, almost, but, oh, I know, it's so perfect.

• 1:32:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called, I wrote down, The People Who Eat Darkness. That's not it. That is actually a really good book about a Japanese serial killer. Go listen to that. But it's actually called What We Do in the Shadows.

• 1:32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, a different thing.

• 1:32:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:32:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But similar.

• 1:32:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, my thing is, I love it. Now that's my thing too. It's, that's.

• 1:32:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 1:32:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm support.

• 1:32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I see lotion on your hands.

• 1:32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, because we were given.

• 1:32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:41Karen Kilgariff?

  When we went to, I believe this was in either Atlanta or Nashville. So this was a couple trips ago. So I'm sorry that I don't, as I, as I always say, someone pointed out to me on Twitter that I'm always like, sorry, I don't remember your name. Sorry, I don't, whatever.

• 1:32:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It was Kim.

• 1:32:55Karen Kilgariff?

  But I'm trying to look on here, because I bet you it'll tell me Nashville, Tennessee.

• 1:32:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 1:32:59Karen Kilgariff?

  We were given a little gift bag from some people and I lost the fucking card.

• 1:33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's from a company called Love Heals Thistle Farms.

• 1:33:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And so this is a company that's in Nashville, Tennessee, where they make hand lotions and soaps and all this stuff. It's, I think it's, there are a lot of it is.

• 1:33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Lit balm.

• 1:33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Lip, we got lip balm, hand lotion, this amazing, like, I can't stop using it body butter.

• 1:33:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, but everyone listen, because there's, there's a thing. And you and I started crying when we read that. Like, literally crying in the green room when we saw this.

• 1:33:33Karen Kilgariff?

  All of the products from Love Heals Thistle Farms are made by women survivors. So these are women who, these are women who get these jobs because they have been, either they just got out of jail, or they were, they are.

• 1:33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Had to leave their homes because of domestic violence issues, so they're going to live at this place.

• 1:33:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And they get this career.

• 1:33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And they get a job and they get, and they make these amazing, beautiful products. My hands are always dry. There, I have a ritual before every show. I put on hand lotion. And if I don't do it, I get, I get a little bit weirded out.

• 1:34:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:34:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Every once in a while.

• 1:34:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And a mint in your mouth.

• 1:34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  A mint in my mouth.

• 1:34:13Georgia Hardstark?

  A mint in the mouth and a lotion on your hands.

• 1:34:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Hand lotion? This is my new hand lotion.

• 1:34:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the best.

• 1:34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's not greasy and it, and it's, it's curing all of my super dry cuticles. It's amazing.

• 1:34:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I am stealing it.

• 1:34:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's actually an amazing product that like smells good and really, really works. And also, when you buy it, you're supporting these people who are trying to get out of a bad situation and into a career.

• 1:34:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like they're, yeah, they feel like they have a purpose.

• 1:34:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  God, that's beautiful.

• 1:34:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's, they're making, they're making a product that could be in fucking Sephora.

• 1:34:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I like, I like this so much better than the fact that Mimi, who's sitting right here, truly does make me happy. But I don't need to repeat that every fucking episode.

• 1:34:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, sometimes it's hard.

• 1:34:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's hard. I love that. Okay, let's do that from now on.

• 1:35:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a good one. Well, also, we get so many, and you guys, we talk, when we meet you and you give them to us, we talk to you about it. But we are inundated with amazing, beautiful gifts.

• 1:35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 1:35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Thoughtful, hilarious, brilliant.

• 1:35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Creative, artistic.

• 1:35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so fun.

• 1:35:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Delicious.

• 1:35:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard to, we're also traveling.

• 1:35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What are our other objectives?

• 1:35:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So then we're shoving stuff in our bag. Like, I was, I looked around my house, because I had actually the card that were, that described in detail about Thistle Farms.

• 1:35:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just a sloppy mess. So I'm like, I finally grabbed up this thing where I'm like, well, at least this is in my purse. I have this information.

• 1:35:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're so lucky. People have been so kind to us and we're so fucking lucky.

• 1:35:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:35:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And so be kind to these people. We will post, I will find that thing and then we'll have Steven post the Thistle Farms, because it truly, aside from anything else, it's a great product.

• 1:35:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We should have a, okay, we'll talk about it later.

• 1:35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Make some plans on the show.

• 1:35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We should make some plans. Um, I love that. This is so much better.

• 1:36:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, great.

• 1:36:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah. It just takes five minutes of thinking. That's all we need to do.

• 1:36:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so exhausting.

• 1:36:07Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna get there someday.

• 1:36:09Georgia Hardstark?

  We should, we should make a podcast about it.

• 1:36:13Karen Kilgariff?

  We should, we should hire a team of secretaries.

• 1:36:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Um.

• 1:36:20Karen Kilgariff?

  No offense, Steven.

• 1:36:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're back.

• 1:36:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so renaming this episode, it was originally titled King of Police, a great name in and of itself. But if we were renaming it today, what would we call it?

• 1:36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Onslaught of Yaris.

• 1:36:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I kind of love. And Ryan MacBuff. We gotta do Ryan MacBuff.

• 1:36:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Ryan MacBuff is so good. It's so hilarious. But then so does, nobody puts Jesus in the corner.

• 1:36:51Georgia Hardstark?

  So good. French feelings are stronger, of course.

• 1:36:55Karen Kilgariff?

  That's perfect.

• 1:36:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Those are good.

• 1:36:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, that was this week's episode of Rewind.

• 1:36:58Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna say goodbye from the Pod Loft in 2018.

• 1:37:05Georgia Hardstark?

  But thank you all for listening.

• 1:37:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:37:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys are fucking angels.

• 1:37:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks for being here.

• 1:37:11Georgia Hardstark?

  In the outfield and in the infield. And we appreciate it.

• 1:37:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You guys are like ghost baseball players in a cornfield.

• 1:37:17Georgia Hardstark?

  We built it.

• 1:37:18Karen Kilgariff?

  We look outside.

• 1:37:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And you came.

• 1:37:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia Wright, as she said.

• 1:37:22Georgia Hardstark?

  We built it. She pushed her boobs together.

• 1:37:27Karen Kilgariff?

  We built it.

• 1:37:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I love grabbing my tits. Um, thank you, guys.

• 1:37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:37:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:37:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis? Want a cookie?

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:37:52Speaker 00

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack for live recordings, behind the scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:38:08Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:38:11Speaker 00

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  This episode sponsored by Marathon Sports. Runners know the feeling. That moment when the shoe disappears. Your stride feels smooth. Your breathing settles in. And the run just clicks. That's what Marathon Sports has been helping runners find for over 50 years. At Marathon Sports, their expert team uses the Right Fit process to match you with shoes and gear built for the way your body actually moves. No guesswork, no generic recommendations, just real guidance from people who live and breathe running. Whether you're training for your next marathon, getting back into running, or chasing a better everyday run, Marathon Sports helps you find what works for you. Visit marathonsports.com or stop

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  into a Marathon Sports store today and experience the difference the Right Fit can make.